The Volokh Conspiracy
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ACLU Apologizes for Bowdlerizing Ruth Bader Ginsburg Quote
A misguided effort to update a Notorious RBG quote backfired.
The New York Times reports:
Anthony Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said Monday that he regretted that a tweet sent out recently by his organization altered the words of a well-known quote by the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
The A.C.L.U. tweet, which was sent out Sept. 18, changed Justice Ginsburg's words, replacing each of her references to women with "person," "people" or a plural pronoun in brackets. Justice Ginsburg, who died last year, is a revered figure in liberal and feminist circles and directed the A.C.L.U.'s Women's Rights Project from its founding in 1972 until she became a federal judge in 1980.
The tweet by the A.C.L.U. occasioned mockery and some anger on social media from feminists and others.
"We won't be altering people's quotes," Mr. Romero said in an interview on Monday evening. "It was a mistake among the digital team. Changing quotes is not something we ever did."
The original quote, from Ruth Bader Ginsburg's 1993 Supreme Court confirmation hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, reads:
The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman's life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices.
The ACLU tweet modified the quote to read:
The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a [person's] life, to [their] well-being and dignity. . . . When government controls that decision for [people], [they are] being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for [their] own choices.
Progressive NYT columnist Michelle Goldberg commented:
This was a mistake for two reasons, one that's easy to talk about, and one that's hard.
The easy one is this: It's somewhat Orwellian to rewrite historical utterances to conform to modern sensitivities. No one that I'm aware of used gender-neutral language to talk about pregnancy and abortion in 1993; it wasn't until 2008 that Thomas Beatie became famous as what headlines sometimes called the "First Pregnant Man." There's a difference between substituting the phrase "pregnant people" for "pregnant women" now, and pretending that we have always spoken of "pregnant people."
What's more difficult to discuss is how making Ginsburg's words gender-neutral alters their meaning. That requires coming to terms with a contentious shift in how progressives think and talk about sex and reproduction. Changing Ginsburg's words treats what was once a core feminist insight — that women are oppressed on the basis of their reproductive capacity — as an embarrassing anachronism. The question then becomes: Is it?
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The left continues to drive away everyone except ivy league graduates. Next year's election should be an epic loss for democrats.
Explain the reason for the change. Was it in deference to trans "people?" Only women can bear children. Reproduction is the sole purpose of life. Why women are seeking to get in the muck of male preoccupations is beyond me, when they have the greatest power. Only hets can get married to further reproduction with legal support. Homosexual marriage will never be more than a friedship, no matter what the lawyer says.
This is the real objection. Feminists feel no compunction to support a man's right to make determinations in reproductive decisions. That is a giant can of worms best left shut.
"Reproduction is the sole purpose of life."
How sad and empty your life must be.
" Next year’s election should be an epic loss for democrats."
There is no good reason for anyone who voted for mostly Democrats in recent years to go Orange. Trump is to the Republicans as an anvil is to Wylie Coyote, or, concrete overshoes to Jimmy Hoffa.
According to the Orangists, no matter how the people vote, the count will go to the Democrats. So, you guys are screwed, either way.
Democrats can only win by cheating.
"Democrats can only win by cheating."
And, they cheat in such a way as to completely avoid detection. It just goes to show what great cheats they are that they can cheat and cheat and cheat and cheat and leave absolutely no evidence behind.
"Democrats can only win by cheating."
True, if you consider counting the votes from all the citizens as "cheating", the way Republicans do.
"The left continues to drive away everyone except ivy league graduates. Next year’s election should be an epic loss for democrats."
Wishful thinking much?
You have to get here from there. And that is how.
Do not take a squat on the past because of current received wisdom on how to behave. (Every generation thinks it has achieved final greatness, once and for all. "We are all wrong.")
If someone was pointed within 180 degrees of the same direction as you, cut them some slack. They are making the world better, too.
Well, 90 degrees left or right. That's 180!
I've turned 360 degrees on this issue.
Just not enough racists, gay-bashers, xenophobes, and deluded, uneducated, evangelical hayseeds left in America's can't-keep-up rural and southern stretches to derail the mainstream's victorious run.
You guys get to keep up the ankle-nipping and whimpering as much as you like, though.
Until replacement, of course.
The anger you express at the failure to cancel RGB is astounding.
Assuage yourself the problem is merely that it is too soon.
I am not much interested in this RGB squabble.
I mock those who claim conservatives are positioned to reverse the tide of the culture war.
That I agree with. However, I do lament for lo those decades, nay, centuries, people just pleaded for tolerance and to be left alone without being jailed or killed, forget social ostracism red letter A problems.
Nothing was learned, and now the shoe is on the other foot. I understand it, but lament it.
"I am not much interested in this RGB squabble."
You should be. The culture war victory you keep bragging about makes her out to be a ridiculous bigot.
Of course, I've seen you use the "w" word as a generic reference to vagina-bearers as well, so you're a bigot too.
Some day, Arthur, you're going to figure out that you didn't win the culture war, but are one of the clingers.
"Wait, you're making a big mistake, I'm not a clinger, don't put me in that camp with all the culture-war losers! Wait until the General Secretary hears about this, then you'll be in trouble!"
I am confident that school prayer; environmental depredation; gay-bashing; discouragement of women from attending graduate schools; segregated classrooms; superstition in science classes; 'help wanted - men' and 'help wanted - women' ads; criminalized abortion; criminalized contraception; Jim Crow; old-timey, race-targeting voter suppression; militarized, abusive, racist policing; and other elements of the 'good old days' that the liberal-libertarian mainstream trashed (working against conservative preferences) are not coming back to America, no matter how much right-wingers wish and work for it.
That is victory. It is an enduring -- still expanding -- victory. Modern America looks good from up here.
Deplorable ignorant intolerance. To be charitable, your provacature act is high quality projection of your intolerance on others. Your intolerant attitude would be admired by authoritarian's of every generation.
The Taliban won out in Afghanistan, but the USA is not Afghanistan.
" I’ve seen you use the “w” word as a generic reference to vagina-bearers as well, so you’re a bigot too."
You can't even bring yourself to use the word "women" to describe gyno-Americans?
Victorious, my rear end, Boomer. Hispanics are white, and the biggest racists of all. They are being driven to the Republican Party. The Census, run by Democrat partisan attack dogs, is kidding the public with that white replacement mythology, trying to psych us out.
"Hispanics are white, and the biggest racists of all. "
Are you outing yourself as Hispanic?
"They are being driven to the Republican Party."
You could make a movie, "Driving Mr Garcia."
"They are being driven to the Republican Party."
Only the stupid ones.
"You guys get to keep up the ankle-nipping and whimpering as much as you like, though.
Until replacement, of course."
I was told this was a white nationalist conspiracy theory.
They totally are doing it, but it's going to remain a white nationalist conspiracy theory until the instant they switch from denying it to bragging about it.
The replacement to which I refer involves cranky conservative old-timers taking their stale, ugly thinking to the grave in the natural course and being replaced by better, younger Americans in our society and electorate.
This has become the American way.
"They totally are doing it, but it’s going to remain a white nationalist conspiracy theory"
ARE you willing to admit that you're doing it, though?
I used to admire the ACLU. Seriously, I did. Even with their questionable origin. IMO, the ACLU fought for 'the other' in American society; those who were marginalized in some manner. They fought for 1A rights, 5A rights, 4A rights. I truly appreciated that.
I only sometimes agreed with them; but I respected their work.
I would like the 'old' ACLU back. The ACLU where I would vent my spleen over what they were arguing for/about, but know in my conscience they were right. They are not what they once were. I hope they can regain that lost idealism.
Me too. I was a long time member of the ACLU. I dropped out this year because of its about-face on free speech.
I did the same for the same reason last year.
KryKry, the ACLU is the spear point of the Democrat Party. It is attacking our country, on behalf of its sponsors, the tech billionaires kowtowing to access China markets to enrich themselves.
But do they have space lasers?
I signed up ages ago, and vowed to never renew when they immediately, within days, flooded my mailbox with pleas for more money. By the time the finally gave up on me months later, they had probably spend my entire donation on annoying me with their begging.
But yes, they were at least mostly respectable for a long time, aside from treating the 2nd amendment as a missing number. Nowadays, I assume any cause they take up is the wrong side until I learn more.
I looked into joining back in the late 80's. I'd known they were doing some good work defending the rights of conservatives under attack. Then I got their recruiting literature, and abandoned the idea.
It was all "no enemy to the left", though I knew they damned well were aware our civil liberties were under attack from the left, too. Even then they'd defend against attacks from the left, but avoid talking about it when seeking new members.
I was saved from such ignominy by my Marxist attitude towards such questions.
"I used to admire the ACLU. Seriously"
I used to mostly just ignore them. This policy seems to be still practical.
LOL, how stupid is it to consider your words carefully!
The general tone and content of your comments suggest that you do not consider your words at all, and in particular that your comment here was meant in earnest rather than ironically.
But they weren't the ACLU's words, they were Ruth Bader Ginsburg's. Are you suggesting that RGB failed to consider her words carefully?
"It was a mistake among the digital team. Changing quotes is not something we ever did."
OK, first of all, it wasn't a "mistake", like somebody tripped, face planted on their keyboard, and their nose hit the bowdlerizing key. Somebody deliberately altered the quote after thinking about it, it was probably reviewed by a second person, and in all likelihood both wrong-headed people are still working at the ACLU, being convicted of an excess of enthusiasm in a 'good cause'.
Second, changing quotes is absolutely something they ever did. "We don't do that" is not the same as "We shouldn't have done that".
"mistakes were made"
Certainly it was a mistake, the word for what it wasn't is "accident".
There are more alternatives than "accident" and "mistake". There's intentionally doing the wrong thing because you genuinely disagree about what the right thing to do is.
Suppose you order fried chicken at a restaurant, and the waitress, observing that you look rather unhealthy, brings you a salad instead.
It wasn't a "mistake", or an "accident", as she'd successfully done what she intended to do, even though she intended to do the wrong thing from your perspective, because you figure you're entitled to get what you order.
The restaurant manager agrees with the waitress that you really should be eating a salad, and doesn't penalize her, but does require that you be brought the fried chicken, only because he's concerned about a bad yelp review, not because he thinks she did the wrong thing.
It's like that here. The people in charge of this tweet meant to alter the quote. And the ACLU management don't see it as a wrong thing to have done, (It was "well intentioned", and there's no reference to sanctioning the perpetrators.) they are only repudiating it because it impacts their reputation. The Overton window hasn't moved far enough for them to have gotten away with it. Yet.
A mistake is an error that can arise from ignorance or inattention or, as here, from faulty judgment. Such an intentional mistake is still a mistake, the word is not a synonym for accident.
To finish the thought, "we made a mistake" is an admission, not an evasion or excuse.
But they didn't actually say that. It was one of those passive voice mistakes that just happened "in the digital team." The head honcho was definitely not taking ownership.
"Mistakes were made"
"It wasn’t a “mistake”, or an “accident”, as she’d successfully done what she intended to do, even though she intended to do the wrong thing from your perspective, because you figure you’re entitled to get what you order."
When you're screaming at the manager over it, he or she might consider it a mistake.
Sometimes I wish I was a conservative. Then I wouldn't have to think about a lot of things, such as the issues involved here that progressives worry about (but conservatives are oblivious to).
And what issue do you see here, that we're supposedly not thinking about?
RBG said something. She likely thought through and meant every word of what she said. Then somebody at the ACLU altered her words to mean something else, something she didn't say, didn't mean to say.
And she was right to use the word "woman". "People" don't get pregnant, "people" don't give birth, women do. Why should we pretend otherwise, and to the point of altering quotations?
I second that comment
I do in part but disagree in part.
Firstly, RGB's words should not be changed. There should be no rewriting of history.
Secondly, in context she was right to use the word "woman" even though it is possible for a trans man to give birth for two reasons: 1) the de minimis percentage of cases involving a trans man does not change that women are overwhelmingly affected and 2) the target of anti-abortion rights laws are women, in part because of the de minimis percentage of pregnant trans men and in part because the supporters of such laws typically don't recognize trans man as men.
However thirdly, there are contexts in which using the word "woman" is inappropriate. Would you describe this person as a pregnant woman?
Would you describe this person as a pregnant woman?
Yes. A "trans-man" is a kind of woman, not a kind of man. That's the work that "trans" is doing.
However, although I don't approve of the changing of RBG's words, at least they signalled the alterations with brackets, which is a lot better than the media usually do. It seems to me that this backing off by the ACLU is rather a disagreeable precedent for the quote-adjusting (or inventing) classes.
More often the media would have just invented some remark, and thrown in a few isolated words that she'd actually said at some point in quotation marks.
'Whether or not to abort is one of the most important decisions "a" person can make, which implicates no other life. The birthing person "must" make that decision for themselves.'
Or sometimes they'd use full quotes around a remark some anonymous source claims the person had said, in contradiction to the on the record denials of everyone present. Got kind of sick of that scam over the last few years.
You mean the scam of people lying on the record and only being willing to tell the truth if their names were kept out of it?
No, the scam of media outlets publishing false 'anonymous' accounts where everybody who is willing to be named denies it.
And, by the way, it's pretty telling that you'll trust an anonymous account lacking any evidentiary support at all, over multiple on the record witnesses, so long at the anonymous account is saying something bad about somebody you don't like.
To be fair, lots of people do say stuff "off the record", precisely because they don't want to say it "on the record."
What has always puzzled me is Republican politicos and officials saying things "off the record" to the media. We've been discussing "insane" elewhere on this thread, but this is insane.
I mean, you tell your natural enemies in the media something "off the record" because you really don't want your name associated with it - and they own you, for life.
I think political figures (and by that I include not just the politicians themselves, but those who work for them) have a greater incentive to lie than the reporters do.
“Sir, it is not for me to apportion the degree of iniquity between a louse and a flea.”
I think that might have been the case at some time in the past. The distant past, and only "might".
The difference is that one of you likes to assume that journalists are all partisan hacks and one of you does not start with that assumption.
It was a good faith attempt to modernize the quotation in light of issues that did not exist in 1993. RBG would have very probably approved. I’d listen to the concerns of people from the ACLU who knew her personally and revered her, rather than those of people like you who had no use for her.
"issues that did not exist in 1993"
There were in fact men pretending to be women and women pretending to be men in 1993. It was just that it was properly considered mental illness.
"It was just that it was properly considered mental illness."
There are at least two problems with this.
1. These people that you declare are "pretending" to be men, what definition of "mental illness" is it that applies? Just because you lack understanding is not a good reason to identify someone as mentally ill.
2. You are using the term "mental illness" as a pejorative label, not as a description.
1. The Definition of Insanity
"Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior."
So, somebody who is, in reality, a woman, but cannot dismiss the fantasy that they are instead a man, is "insane".
2. Descriptions of things which are seriously undesirable are, unavoidably, pejorative, because of the nature of what they describe.
For you to declare that trans people can't distinguish fantasy from reality does not make it so. I think you might be begging the question.
". . . cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.”
Guess you missed that part.
"Descriptions of things which are seriously undesirable are, unavoidably, pejorative, because of the nature of what they describe."
Bullshit.
You would have a decent argument if a common successful treatment for gender dysphoria is convincing the person they are what their biological markers say they are. But instead, the most successful treatment is to affirm how they feel because those feelings act like an immutable trait, not a fantasy. As a result of this empirical evidence, most mental health professionals believe it's the gender dysphoria that's the mental illness, not the disconnect between the feelings and the biological markers (*).
(*) It's also possible the feelings are driven, at least in part, by biology.
Stipulating that your account of professional opinion on "successful treatment" is correct, and also that the relevant feelings are driven, at least in part, by biology, we still seem to be faced with the difficulty that the person's belief, however genuine, that they are a {saucepan} does not make them a {saucepan.}
So while acquiescing in or even encouraging their, heartfelt, feelings that they are a {saucepan} may be the best treatment, but it doesn't actually align their beliefs with reality. Even though they really believe they are a {saucepan.}
This is because a genuine belief that you are a {saucepan} if you are in fact not a {saucepan}, but a {kettle}, is still a delusion about the true state of the world. Which clash will still sometimes leap up and bite you on the backside, however soothing your psychologist might be.
It is, sadly, the case that suicide amongst those suffering from gender dysphoria is depressingly high, and is still depressingly high for those who "transition." This suggests, quite strongly, that the delusion is by no means complete, and that "transitioners" can stil discern a disagreement between their feelings and their eyes.
You have assumed that "woman" refers to biological markers such as chromosomes or genitalia, but that begs the question.
Sure. Likewise "dog" and "saucepan" refer to objectively referenced items that different observers can identify consistently.
The big difficulty with subjective womanhood - ie "a woman is a human that thinks it is a woman", is that its circularity strips all content from concept. We do not know what such a "woman" has in mind when she says she is a "woman". Because we have discarded the biological markers, she may be thinking more along the lines of "dog" or "saucepan" or "lawyer."
Try it - "a lawyer is a human that thinks it is a lawyer." Can you give any account of what such a human does or knows or of how she behaves ? Does she work in a circus ? Drive a tank ? What has she told you that would lead your mind to place her in an office shuffling paper and tapping on a computer ?
"A woman is a human that thinks it is a woman" only ties down any meaning more specific tham "nghaiaijaboodly" because we understand the second use of woman to refer to the biomarker woman. And if your definition is not only circular but uses the same word in different senses, it's not worth any more than "nghaiaijaboodly".
So my "assumption" wins unless you can come up with an alternative meaning that actually means something. After that we can talk - though if you can come up with a coherent concept that you would like "woman" to refer to, I'd still suggest that you also invent a new word rather than purloin the old one, which has and always has had a perfectly clear and understood existing meaning.
Your dismissing what likely hundreds of thousands of Americans deeply believe about their identities. There is no analogous belief for dog, saucepan or lawyer. It's comparable to sexual orientation in that it's subjective, based on a deeply-held belief about one's self that affects a large absolute number of people, and is resistant to change. Such things are evidence that led us to believe sexual orientation is a trait. Ditto for gender identity, and hence using "woman" acknowledges that trait.
And, the reason we should use "woman" instead of inventing a new word is it is literally what the doctor ordered.
based on a deeply-held belief about one’s self
I don't doubt it but what is the belief ?
You haven't addressed the problem of the circular definition. What is it that a trans-woman thinks she is ?
There is no analogous belief for dog, saucepan or lawyer.
No, though there is for missing limbs. People who have lost limbs very often report that they can sense the presence of missing limbs, hands, fingers, feet, toes etc. And there's no reason at all to doubt that they're telling the truth. There's a good scientific explanation - the developing brain builds a detailed map of the body, for the purpose of giving it precise movement instructions, and recording incoming sensory data, and that network of brain functionality that relates to the left leg is not chopped off when the leg is chopped off. It's still there doing its thing for the phantom leg.
But these folk have still only got one leg. Not two. Maybe they would feel better if we humored them and referred to them as two legged, maybe not. But even if it would indeed make them happier if we referred to them as two legged, it wouldn't actually make them two legged. They'd still be one legged. But with a brain still running programs for the phantom second leg. Even if the docs all decided to go with the flow and redefined "two-legged" to mean "thinks he's got two legs" the second leg would still be a fiction.
Nobody denies that the brain programs are real. It's the leg that's not real.
She believes she is a woman notwithstanding her chromosomes or genitalia. And no, accepting that belief as the basis for being a woman is not circular because it also requires evidence that the belief forms a legitimate trait. As I see it, our difference of opinion is how we define what a woman is. I think I have described a legitimate trait that suffices to define what a woman is.
Your leg analogy is inapt because the person objectively does not have two legs. In contrast, there is no objective criteria for what makes a person a woman. If on the other hand, a trans woman said she believed she had XX chromosomes, that would be something we could all reject out of hand.
In contrast, there is no objective criteria for what makes a person a woman.
Well there is - being a human with ovaries (at some point in the life cycle) but you are choosing to reject it. But I'm afraid I'm not understanding your alternative definition.
"She believes she is a woman notwithstanding her chromosomes or genitalia. And no, accepting that belief as the basis for being a woman is not circular because it also requires evidence that the belief forms a legitimate trait."
You are still defining "a woman" as "someone who believes she is a woman" and you then add an extra little condition that she must really really really believe it. The addition of this legitimate trait thing does nothing to tell inform us of what it is that this trans-woman thinks she is, if not a biomarker-woman.
If she really really really believes she is a biomarker-woman then like the guy with the missing leg, the belief is genuine, but mistaken. But if she believes she is not a biomarker-woman, but a woman nevertheless, we still haven't been told what she means by "woman" when she says she really really really believes she is a woman.
We still have a circle.
If you want to be helpful, we need more than "it's a legitimate trait" - we need to know the semantic content in your (and our trans-woman's) usage of "woman."
You have mine - it's a human with those biomarkers. I'm not all wrapped up in a circle. But you are.
No. I explained what constitutes a trait and the existence of a trait is what defines being a woman.
Er, no. Here's what you said :
It’s comparable to sexual orientation in that it’s subjective, based on a deeply-held belief about one’s self that affects a large absolute number of people, and is resistant to change. Such things are evidence that led us to believe sexual orientation is a trait. Ditto for gender identity, and hence using “woman” acknowledges that trait.
The actual content of the alleged sexual orientation trait is that you are sexually attracted to people of sex A. Or B. Or perhaps both. Though subjective - ie it's entirely up to you, and going on in your head - it's real. That you long for As, that your eyes follow As, that your blood tends to pump into certain areas when fine specimens of A are about, and even more so if they return your glance with longing - these aren't purely subjective. And even if there weren't objective evidence of your orientation, the claim that you are sexually attracted to As is neither vague nor circular. It's clear what the claimed trait entails. You are sexually attracted to As.
But the total of your explanation of the gender trait is...."ditto."
All we discover is that the gender trait is analagous to the sexual orientation trait. It's subjective, it affects a large number of people, it's resistant to change. But that is all we are told. Unlike the sexual orientatation trait, nothing is offered as to the actual content of the trait.
I presume - because you have declined to contradict me when I have said so previously - that a transwoman's belief that she is a woman is not a belief that she's a biomarker-woman. If it is then we could have ended this discussion long ago. So, the belief must be a belief that she's a woman in some other sense than biomarker-womanhood. But in what sense ?
She thinks she's a woman but not a biomarker woman is as useful as she thinks she's a violinist but not in the sense of being able to play the violin. Fine - but in what sense does she think she's a violinist ? Spiritually she feels at one with a violin and if she had only learned as a child it would have been her lifelong passion ? She owns a violin and likes to play tennis with it ? What ?
You need to put some paint on the canvas.
In the sense of her level of discomfort, often extreme, in male social roles and having a male physiology.
In the sense of her level of discomfort, often extreme, in male social roles and having a male physiology.
Woo hoo ! Some paint !
So “woman” = member of the class :
{biomarker women}
- {biomarker women who feel disgust at their biomarker woman physiology / expected social role}
+ {biomarker men who feel disgust at their biomarker man physiology / expected social role}
That right ?
So it’s not a matter of believing you’re a bio-woman but a matter of disgust at finding yourself with the “wrong” biobody / expected social role.
I think that’s enough for now - there is at least a scrape of paint to examine.
We can leave for another day the question of why this “bio minus plus” definition of “woman” should be thought relevant to things like sports teams, rest rooms, changing rooms etc – where the rationale for dividing humanity into its sexes is relentlessly “bio” simpliciter.
That’s seems right with the proviso that the disgust is evidence of a deep-seated belief about one’s identity. I also agree that sport teams and showers raise difficult issues where it may not be correct to treat a trans person as their gender identity. However, those are exceptions to the rule they should be treated as such including referring to a trans woman (man) as a woman (man).
You seem to argue that a mental illness that is untreatable is not a mental illness.
This is silly.
There are many untreatable illnesses, mental and otherwise.
Also, the notion that living ones life in accordance with one's self-,perceived gender produces the best outcomes does not negate the fact that there is an underlying condition being treated.
When the assumed illness is shared by tens and likely at least hundreds of thousand of Americans, it can't be cured, and instead assuming it isn't an illness which leads to better mental health, that's evidence the original assumption is wrong.
No it isn't. Not even a little bit.
Many more people have a cleft palate. Or colon cancer. Or are too short for their liking.
None of which means people should not be free to live their lives as they see fit. And everyone else should treat them with proper respect for human dignity.
But "lots of us feel this way" is not at all evidence that there is a condition of some sort.
In fact, arguing otherwise goes completely against the "born this way" premise.
In my experience, it certainly seems as though most long-term TG folk have an inmate brain condition... No reason to believe otherwise. If my brain can make me "feel male" there is no reason it can't make me "feel female".
Once again, Brett, a check of your link makes it plain you are being deliberately deceptive.
To be clear, insanity is a legal term pertaining to a defendant's ability to determine right from wrong when a crime is committed. Here's the first sentence of law.com's lengthy definition:
Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.
Insanity is a concept discussed in court to help distinguish guilt from innocence. It's informed by mental health professionals, but the term today is primarily legal, not psychological. There's no "insane" diagnosis listed in the DSM. There's no "nervous breakdown" either, but that's another post.
Emphasis added. IOW, you are taking a legal definition and pretending it is a clinical one. It's not, and you know it.
Brett???
It's pretty weird to be deliberately deceptive while providing a link to your source, isn't it?
So, you've established, not that the definition I provided was wrong, but that "insane" is a legal term, and a lay term, and that's how we're using it here, since nobody here is proposing locking up transgenders in psychiatric wards. We just don't want to have to humor their delusions.
Real psychiatric professionals tend to be more concerned with, "will the check clear" and "will I be assaulted by the patient", and aren't really concerned with whether you think you're a stalk of asparagus and spend your nights sleeping in a bed of compost, so long as you can hold down a job, and don't assault random people. Which is just another way of saying, "the check clears, and he won't attack me".
It’s pretty weird to be deliberately deceptive while providing a link to your source, isn’t it?
It is, but that doesn't stop you. You've done it before, often enough that it would be foolish to accept your interpretation without checking.
that “insane” is a legal term, and a lay term, and that’s how we’re using it here,
Bullshit. You were defending what Bob wrote:
There were in fact men pretending to be women and women pretending to be men in 1993. It was just that it was properly considered mental illness.
That's not an offhand comment. It's a description of a medical condition. Besides, anytime you start authoritatively quoting definitions you aren't using a lay term. And legal definitions aren't really relevant here, since we are not discussing legal issues.
You're being dishonest.
Under your definition, Brett, Republicans are insane.
Your comment never once denies that Bob is wrong.
"what definition of “mental illness” is it that applies?"
delusional disorder
By clinger standards, Christians are mentally ill and delusional, unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
That seems harsh -- by a shade.
"There were in fact men pretending to be women and women pretending to be men in 1993. It was just that it was properly considered mental illness."
How long have you been pretending to be a dude?
No, political correctness is never a good faith effort, especially in "modernizing" a 30 year old quote. Modernizing Chaucer or Shakespeare ruins it, they are far older, yet somehow still intelligible by those who have an attention span longer than a flea. Anyone offended by a 30 year old quote is a snowflake who deserves ridicule.
It was a good faith attempt to modernize the quotation
Putting words in someone else's mouth is never "good faith", and the fact that you think it IS clearly illustrates just what an inherently dishonest piece of crap you are.
You're projecting your own deficiencies onto other people again.
"It was a good faith attempt to modernize the quotation"
There is no such thing as a good faith attempt to modernize a quotation.
It's a quotation (exactly what the person said) or it's not a quotation at all.
"It was a good faith attempt to modernize the quotation in light of issues that did not exist in 1993."
What issues that didn't exist in 1993? Presumably they altered the quote because it implied that only women could get pregnant. If that's true now, it was true in 1993.
"And she was right to use the word “woman”. “People” don’t get pregnant, “people” don’t give birth, women do. Why should we pretend otherwise, and to the point of altering quotations?"
Evidence, in case you needed some, that Conservatives like Brett are still working through the concept that "women" are "people".
Evidence, in case you needed some, that Conservatives like Brett are still working through the concept that “women” are “people”.
The only evidence here is that you're too stupid to grasp simple concepts like, "All 'A's are 'B's, but not all 'B's are 'A's".
I forgot about the reality-warping bubble that prevents evidence of obvious things from reaching you.
What "issues" would not have be thought about?
Orwellian changing of language after the fact?
"Orwellian changing of language after the fact?"
So you didn't understand Orwell? That was your point?
"issues involved here"
The fact that the "party of women" is erasing "women" from the language?
Isn't that the joke? That RGB wasn't the second female Supreme Court justice, but the 90th person one?
Yes. No longer a trailblazer.
"No longer a trailblazer."
Bill Walton, Maurice Lucas, Dave Twardzik, and RBG were the core of the '77 team that won the NBA title.
The Left asserts that there is no "sex," therefore they must conclude that "sex discrimination" must also not be a thing.
If "sex" doesn't exist, then there is no definition for it (go ahead, ask a Lefty to define "male" or "female"--they can't), and what you can't define or measure you can't use for/against someone. Sex discrimination is a non-issue. Carry on.
I'm not sure that's an accurate representation of "the Left's" position, but say that it is. Even if sex doesn't exist, sex discrimination still could because the people doing the discriminating believes that it exists.
Suppose I discriminate against you because I believe you are the Easter Bunny. There's no such thing as the Easter Bunny, but that doesn't mean that someone who wrongly believes otherwise might not discriminate on that basis.
But sex does exist, even though gender does not excepts for nouns, adjectives (in some languages), pronouns, and verbs (in some languages).
Is the message more simple: Treat other humans in the way that you'd like to be treated?
The message is about reproduction, the sole purpose of life, and the power of women.
Unless you're a masochist, in which case disregard that advice!
There are literally zero people on the activist side of this debate advocating that golden-rule based principle.
If that were the discussion, there would be no debate.
This is the position taken by leftist accolites like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro.
You go from "there's nobody arguing that" to "these are the names o the people arguing that" in just a couple of sentences.
Not clear if you were being serious, but here goes. This sort of "discrimination" would be non-actionable, because you would not be discriminating against an objectively-defined protected class. Just so with sex, if there really is no such thing.
Not all discrimination is illegal or actionable. I was once turned down for a job because of my birthday; the hiring manager told me he does not get along with Virgos.
Astrological signs aren't a protected class either, and what he did was legal, but it was discriminatory. And, I'm grateful I didn't end up working for someone that irrational.
Sure. But that would relegate sex discrimination to something people just sit around and grumble about. By taking away legal recourse the gender benders would effectively neuter 150+ years of work re women's rights, which I took to be OP's point.
Who is arguing to take away the legal recourse for discrimination because of or on the basis of sex?
Nobody is arguing that. The thread you dropped into is about unintended consequences.
I'm not following what beliefs or actions lead to the unintended consequence of having no legal recourse for discrimination because of sex occurs.
Wait a minute. I see from jaydubyou's post, it all comes back to the claim that the Left doesn't believe sex exists. So, I can dismiss the rest of this thread as being based on a straw man.
Wait a minute. I see from jaydubyou’s post
So you just jumped into the middle of the thread without bothering to start at the beginning. That explains this:
So, I can dismiss the rest of this thread as being based on a straw man.
You could, but you would be mistaken. The rest of the thread, though it may have been in response to a comment that painted with an overly broad brush, was about the assertion that one can in reality discriminate against something that does not even exist.
the assertion that one can in reality discriminate against something that does not even exist
Well, strictly, you're not discriminating against the trait (real or fictional) but against the person alleged to possess that trait. And that would be a real person.
So if I burn old women who I think posses the trait "witch" I really am discriminating against particular old women, and the basis for my discrimination is the trait of "being a witch" - even though my identification of actual women as witches is always 100% wrong, since "witch" is a fictitious category. But as they crackle on the bonfire, they can reasonably claim to have been discriminated against on the basis of a fictitious trait.
The point is that legal discrimination, and illegal discrimination, are both discriminatory. The difference is that one is actionable and the other is not.
The point is that legal discrimination, and illegal discrimination, are both discriminatory.
But you're leaving out your real point, which was with regard to imaginary discrimination.
In my hypo, the discrimination was real; it was the object of the discrimination that is imaginary. But when we are doing thought experiments -- you may not have heard of thought experiments since they require thought -- we are allowed to do thought experiments about things that don't exist. That's why they are called thought experiments. Contact your local community college to see if they offer courses in basic logic.
Give it up. The straw man argument has already been done to death by Sarcastr0, and you aren't any good at it anyway.
"Not clear if you were being serious, but here goes. This sort of “discrimination” would be non-actionable, because you would not be discriminating against an objectively-defined protected class. Just so with sex, if there really is no such thing."
Yeah, if. So there's just one stumbling block in the way of you making your case.
Even if sex doesn’t exist, sex discrimination still could because the people doing the discriminating believes that it exists.
As usual, your reasoning skills are found lacking. It is impossible to discriminate on the basis of something that does not exist. Therefore, you cannot discriminate on the basis of sex if sex (however one defines it) does not in fact exist. You might believing that you're doing so, but in reality you're just arbitrarily discriminating on the basis of some delusional perception. So, for such discrimination to actually exist the basis for it must also exist. It's just a question of defining "it".
Tell that to the person who's been discriminated against. If someone refuses to hire you because he thinks you're a hobbit, you are every bit as much out of a job as you would be if hobbits actually existed.
Tell that to the person who’s been discriminated against.
That's a 3rd grader's argument...which is exactly why it's not unexpected from you.
you are every bit as much out of a job as you would be if hobbits actually existed.
But you're not out of a job because you're a hobbit, even if you had a 2nd breakfast that day. Put another way: In your scenario, precisely how many hobbits were discriminated against?
Keep trying to fire up that second neuron...maybe it will activate and you'll have a chance at grasping this.
Can someone let Wuz's owner know that he's barking again and needs to be whacked on the head with a newspaper?
And can someone also let Wuz know that just because no actual hobbits were discriminated against, it doesn't mean no persons were being discriminated against for being perceived as a hobbit?
For that matter, I'm not Catholic, but if someone thought I was and fired me for that reason, it would be anti-Catholic discrimination. And under controlling caselaw I would absolutely have a case.
And can someone also let Wuz know that just because no actual hobbits were discriminated against, it doesn’t mean no persons were being discriminated against for being perceived as a hobbit?
Which is exactly what I said. Nobody was discriminated against because they were a hobbit. They were arbitrarily discriminated against on the basis of someone's delusional perception of a trait that does not even exist. That someone believes that s/he is discriminating against hobbits, but they in fact are not.
In short, you are failing to distinguish between reality and fantasy...which comes as no great surprise.
No, I’m saying that in this case the law protects against discrimination whether it’s based on reality or fantasy.
Wait...so now you're saying that hobbits (or any other type of imaginary being/entity) are a legally protected class?
Why would you think that I said that? Oh wait -- you'd think that because it's a totally idiotic misrepresentation of what I actually said.
you’d think that because it’s a totally idiotic misrepresentation of what I actually said.
Uh, what you "actually said" in the context of a hypothetical about "hobbit discrimination" (emphasis mine):
"I’m saying that in this case the law protects against discrimination whether it’s based on reality or fantasy."
Idiotic indeed.
"That’s a 3rd grader’s argument"
And you were unable to counter it.
All the hypos you've raised here are normatively upside down. The scenario OP raised is far more like someone refusing to hire you because YOU think you're a hobbit, the Easter Bunny, the King of Siam, etc., and it's clear to the employer (along with most other sentient beings) that you're not.
But I suppose you'd say not hiring obvious nutjobs is "discrimination" as well, as opposed to good business sense?
No, I would say two things. First, I think you're still conflating illegal, actionable discrimination with all discrimination. "Obvious nutjobs" is not a protected class; they can't sue you if you refuse to hire them on that basis, but nevertheless you discriminated against them. It's just that because it's not a protected class your discrimination was legal.
The second thing I would say is that perceived status is just as protected as actual status. If someone mistakenly thinks I'm black (or, for that matter, if I mistakenly think I'm black and tell people I'm black), for purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter that someone is wrong on the facts. The reason for the discrimination is that somebody thought I was black, and my perceived status is just as protected as actual status would be. There's a whole boatload of caselaw that says so.
So you're telling me there's a whole boatload of case law covering scenarios where a person misrepresented having a classification and yet an employer was found liable for discrimination against that phony classification? I'd be genuinely interested in reading some examples.
No. I said "mistakenly think I'm black"; you changed it to misrepresented. So you're now running with something completely different from what I actually said.
People who make misrepresentations aren't a protected class either, but mistakes do happen, both on the part of the employer and the employee. And the whole point of anti-discrimination laws is to remove some statuses, like race and sex, from consideration altogether, whether that status actually exists or whether someone mistakenly thinks it exists.
And there is caselaw holding that perceived status is just as protected as actual status. Unfortunately Westlaw has been down for most of the afternoon in my area (I know this because I'm trying to get a brief finished that's due tomorrow) so I can't actually cite it for you, but if you go on Westlaw and do a search for "perceived status" and "Title VII" it's there.
No. I said “mistakenly think I’m black”; you changed it to misrepresented. So you’re now running with something completely different from what I actually said.
So now you're claiming that the law distinguishes between discrimination against those who mistakenly believe they're black vs. those who intentionally lie about being black?
Case 1: "He told me he was black, so I didn't hire him. It later turned out that he was mistaken about his racial heritage."
Case 2: "He told me he was black, so I didn't hire him. It later turned out that he lied about his racial heritage."
Tell us how those two are substantively different in terms of discrimination law.
Yes, that's what I'm claiming, and for someone who loves to accuse other people of having poor reading comprehension, yours has been abysmal this entire thread.
Intentional misrepresentations are not protected. Lying to a prospective employer has always been grounds for termination, and nothing about anti-discrimination law changes that.
What the law does protect people from is discrimination based on someone's perceived status, even if the perception is mistaken. Race cannot be the basis for a hiring decision, whether the hiring manager is correct or mistaken. If someone isn't hired because the hiring manager thinks they're black, it does not matter if the hiring manager is correct or mistaken about the person actually being black. Actual status is protected; perceived but mistaken status is protected. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
The same principle applies to hobbits. There aren't any. But if a hiring manager mistakenly thinks there are, and doesn't hire me because he thinks I am one, that would be anti-hobbit discrimination (which may or may not be illegal depending on whether hobbits are a protected class in your jurisdiction). Now, if I intentionally lie about being a hobbit (and there still aren't any hobbits, but that's not relevant to this specific point), then the hiring manager has a perfectly good reason to not hire me: I lied during the application process.
Again, I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. I will say that most of your rebuttals have been to points I wasn't making.
for someone who loves to accuse other people of having poor reading comprehension, yours has been abysmal this entire thread
That's pretty funny, though not in the way you intended. Let's see why.
Intentional misrepresentations are not protected.
What the hell does protecting intentional misrepresentations have to do with anything? Your claim all along has been that if someone believes they're discriminating on the basis of "X"...whether or not "X" is even a real thing...then they ARE committing "X discrimination". The question of whether or not "X discrimination" is legal is another matter (again, your position).
Lying to a prospective employer has always been grounds for termination, and nothing about anti-discrimination law changes that.
Nobody...save for the voices in your head, apparently...said anything at all about termination, let alone termination for lying to one's employer. And in fact both of the examples to which you're now responding were predicated on, "He said he was black, so I didn't hire him." In both cases the employer believed the applicant was black, and based the decision to not hire the applicant on that belief. So again, the question was (and here we're seeing why your initial statement about reading comprehension is amusing):
Is the decision to not hire the applicant, driven by the employer's belief that the applicant was black, based on the applicant's assertion that he was, treated different by discrimination law if the assertion turned out to be false? And if so, does it matter whether the falsity of the claim was known by the applicant when he made it?
If you somehow manage to actually address the question that's been before you for a bit now then we can move on to tackling the question of whether or not the employer in fact discriminated against a black applicant, or if he was simply guilty of violating one or more laws based solely on his intention to do so.
If I intend to poison someone, so I put what I think is cyanide in his coffee, but it's actually maple syrup, can I be charged with attempted murder? Of course.
If I intend to discriminate against someone I think is black, but who really isn't, am I guilty of race discrimination? Of course.
Now, I get that using four syllable words may throw you off, but it's really a simple concept.
And now, since you cannot fairly represent what I'm saying, I'm going to quit wasting my time talking to you. I misjudged you. I said you had bad reading skills. I now see that you're intentionally dissembling.
You're either the dumbest son-of-a-bitch on the internet, or the world's worst liar.
"So now you’re claiming"
You keep making weird claims, and then complaining that they're weird claims. And you keep starting them with "now you claim..."
Does this approach normally work for you?
I stand corrected. Pollock's comment history makes it abundantly clear that the first option should have read, "You must be the second dumbest son-of-a-bitch on the internet".
“Obvious nutjobs” is not a protected class"
Americans with Disabilities Act says they are.
I suppose that depends on how broadly or narrowly you are defining "obvious nutjob".
You're talking to Bob, so you need to clarify that you mean "obvious to Bob, but not to normal people", so that he can work it into his limited framework.
Plus discrimination isn't illegal if it's actually job related; if someone has mental health issues that will disrupt the business, it's probably legal not to hire them.
Sure but you made a categorical statement that is false.
What's the categorical statement? That "obvious nutjobs" aren't a protected class?
OK. Show me in the statute where "obvious nutjobs" are a protected class.
Are you relying on personal experience?
"As usual, your reasoning skills are found lacking."
You chose to follow this opening with some very poor reasoning.
They think they have a very clever answer for that: race and sex (or gender?) are socially constructed, so they are whatever the lefty projects into the eye and mind of the beholder.
In this case, they seem to be correct. Try putting an "ethnic" name on your rental application, and see if the unit is still available,
"The Left asserts that there is no “sex,” therefore they must conclude that “sex discrimination” must also not be a thing."
Can't say as I've ever encountered anyone on the left who said anything even remotely similar to "there is no sex." In fact, a couple of fellows from the right were pretty touchy about even the thought of sex: Ed Meese, John Ashcroft.
I hope everyone realizes the most likely reason why the quote was altered. The term ‘woman’ is no longer acceptable to the woke mob in describing a person who bears children. The term now used is “birthing person/people”. Therefore, for RBG to have specified women, if stated today, would be regarded as offensive to the woke mob and thus the language had to be scrubbed.
It just shows the ridiculousness of the attempt. They couldn't use "birthing person" person the quote was about abortion. They clearly thought "persons with a uterus" or "menstruating persons" was too awkward, so they just went with "person" thus overly generalizing it to all people ("No uterus, no opinion" sign holders hardest hit)
" They couldn’t use 'birthing person' person [sic] the quote was about abortion."
The thing is, getting an abortion means you won't give birth THIS TIME to THIS FETUS, it doesn't retroactively delete any previous births nor preclude any future births.
"The thing is, getting an abortion means you won’t give birth THIS TIME to THIS FETUS, it doesn’t retroactively delete any previous births nor preclude any future births."
That assumes nothing goes wrong. A botched abortion can result in infertility, thus precluding any future births.
By what mechanism can you botch an abortion that the children previous born of your patient spontaneously cease to exist?
"I hope everyone realizes the most likely reason why the quote was altered."
You don't seem to.
The most likely reason is that only women have abortions, and they're tired of being blamed for it as if men weren't pushing them to get those abortions, often by straight out saying they don't intend to support the child. Pregnancy and childbirth almost always involve a period where going to work just isn't possible, so lack of support just might be the tipping point.
The ACLU changing Ginsburg's historical statements is completely in line with Ginsburg's judicial philosophy of the evolving constitution.
"The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman's life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices."
This is a ridiculous assertion for Abortion rights.
The Woman makes a risk assessment when having sex, as does the man. Therefore, she should be treated as a fully adult human and is responsible for that decision; as should the man involved.
If Impregnation occurs, take responsibility for your decision and, congratulations; you managed to create a child together.
Bowdlerizing. How do you pronounce this word?
Bowd-ler-i-zing?
Boulder-i-zing?
Something else?
It's pronounced "Newspeak".
"Bowdlerizing. How do you pronounce this word?"
Exactly as it sounds.
"Bowdlerizing. How do you pronounce this word?
Bowd-ler-i-zing?
Boulder-i-zing?
Something else?"
Something else. the B-O-W- at the front is BOW as in "and arrow", not BOW as in "to your opponent".
"...that women are oppressed on the basis of their reproductive capacity..."
Feminism is a cult of women who hate being women!
And/or of men who prefer strong, capable women, and raise their daughters to be strong, capable women.
The side that opposes feminism, like the Taliban, get all irate when one of them wants to go to school and learn about the world. There's a wide variety of losers on that side, they're not all the same kind of loser.
The side that opposes feminism, like the Taliban, get all irate when one of them wants to go to school and learn about the world.
You're so full of shit you could single-handedly fertilize every corn field in Iowa.
So now you're mad that I'm coming for your job?
RBG - TERF!
Wow, they recanted. A lot of ACLU donors talk about pulling our support but usually don't follow through. It appears going after RGB was enough to make some of the left-leaning supporters actually pull the trigger.
I've shifted some of my donations to IJ. I'd shift away from the ACLU completely if someone can point me to an effective organization covering the 4th amendment with a focus on non-criminal cases. That's about the only thing left they're good on, and even there it's not looking good.
Last I looked, the state chapters were still free to disagree with the national organization, and some of them are still pretty good.
...
Well, I looked again, and it appears they've brought the stragglers in line with the national organization. Must have happened in the last 10 years, a decade ago some of them were still much more principled than the central org.
I am still annoyed that Hollywood had a shiksa portray RBG in the movie ON THE BASIS OF SEX. Granted, Felicity Jones is quite lovely (and she reminds me of a shiksa I used to see back in the 80s). Still, why couldn't they have gotten a Jewish actress like Natalie Portman for the role?
How dare they!
Yoda pushing for Queen Amidala is.
" I’d shift away from the ACLU completely if someone can point me to an effective organization covering the 4th amendment with a focus on non-criminal cases. That’s about the only thing left they’re good on"
Send your money to me, and I'll make sure it's concealed so well that no johnny law will ever find it.
I have a dream, that two dudes can get married and then spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees getting divorced!!
My favorite MLK quote.
"You guys are all gay!" -- Ronald Reagan.
"My favorite MLK quote."
"Whatchu talkin' about, Willis?" is better
Dear ACLU,
Men are men, women are women.
Science.
Dear idiot,
women are people, too.
There was no apology. The ACLU doubled down.
“My colleagues do a fantastic job of trying to understand a reality that people who seek abortions are not only women,” he said. “That reality exists.”
Also, from the ACLU: “Having spent time with Justice Ginsburg, I would like to believe that if she were alive today, she would encourage us to evolve our language to encompass a broader vision of gender, identity and sexuality.”
Roger S
September.28.2021 at 1:42 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Also, from the ACLU: “Having spent time with Justice Ginsburg, I would like to believe that if she were alive today, she would encourage us to evolve our language..."
Just like our evolving constitution - how appropriate from the grave of ginsburg & the ACLU
"Roger S is full of shit" -- Ruth Bader Ginsberg.
“Roger S is full of shit” — Ruth Bader Ginsberg.
Uh, what he posted is a NYT quote of Anthony Romero, the ACLU's Executive Director...you moron.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/27/opinion/rbg-aclu-abortion.html
Which doesn't change the shit ratio, you bigger moron.
It proves that 100% of the shit here is coming from you.
So you're bad at math, too?
Only women can be pregnant. And that concludes today's Kindergarten biology lesson.
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them."
Eh, as a general matter, only women naturally become pregnant. As a technical matter, it's perfectly possible for a man to become pregnant with proper hormonal support and surgical implantation of a fertilized egg.
I wouldn't advise it unless you're suicidal, though. You'd bleed to death when the placenta detaches. Men don't have wombs, so are only capable of ectopic pregnancies.
I think you could probably deal with that problem with some inventive surgery, though, if you didn't mind losing a few inches of intestine when you delivered.
You can also surgically implant a fertilized egg into the space between one's ears. That's likely safer. Of course you will lose your head in the process, but that's a small price to pay for "doing the work". /s
No, that wouldn't work, the skull would prevent a normal fetal development. If not for that, sure, it would be a technically ideal solution, but please, think of the baby's interests!
What would keep a baby from thriving in the space between your ears? plenty of oxegenated blood flow, and nothing else there to compete for it.
"surgical implantation of a fertilized egg"
Where?
You'd want someplace with enough room, where anything present could be shoved around as necessary, and where reasonably vascular tissues for the placenta to attach to are present. This pretty much limits you to the same general location regular pregnancies take place in, the abdomen.
The fertilized egg generates the placenta, it's fetal tissue, not maternal, and it's perfectly happy invading any organ it contacts. Just as it would do in a woman. Yeah, not all ectopic pregnancies happen in the fallopian tubes, a small percentage happen in the peritoneal cavity.
"Abdominal Ectopic Pregnancy
Abdominal pregnancy is an ectopic pregnancy that implants in the peritoneal cavity (42). Abdominal pregnancy is rare, with an incidence of 0.9%–1.4% of all ectopic pregnancies (42–44). It is classified as primary or secondary. Primary abdominal pregnancies are rare and occur when fertilization of the ovum takes place within the abdominal cavity. Secondary abdominal pregnancies are more common and originate as tubal or ovarian pregnancies that undergo undetected rupture and extrusion into the peritoneal cavity (45). Implantation can occur anywhere on the peritoneal surface or abdominal viscera, with the placenta attaching to and deriving blood supply from the bowel, liver, spleen, or bladder (42). Abdominal pregnancy is associated with considerable morbidity and mortality for the mother and fetus because of the risk for massive blood loss from incomplete or entire placental separation. The trophoblast may also invade the maternal abdominal organs, potentially causing heavy bleeding or organ rupture."
You'd have to be really dedicated to try it, and find a fairly unethical doctor.
Then you'd have to pick an organ to lose, perhaps one of your kidneys, or a section of intestine, and arrange for the implantation to be confined to it. I'm sure it could be managed by confining the placenta with surgical Dacron.
I sure as hell wouldn't do it. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be pulled off.
I wouldn't call that a "pregnancy."
"Men don’t have wombs, so are only capable of ectopic pregnancies."
Men don't have fallopian tubes, either.
I'd still like to know where the egg is going to be implanted under his theory?
"I’d still like to know where the egg is going to be implanted under his theory?"
Where he got it from in the first place, seems like a better inquiry.
Details, details. If you are truly committed to transformation, then these things are just another surgery away. This is how one deals with disphoria in a healthy, body-positive way. Just not YOUR body. /s
"As a technical matter, it’s perfectly possible for a man to become pregnant with proper hormonal support and surgical implantation of a fertilized egg."
How's that going to work exactly without a uterus?
A embryo implanting outside the uterus in a woman is a life threatening situation.
Ectopic Pregnancy
That treatment is typically an abortion.
"How’s that going to work exactly without a uterus?"
Messy. Check that. VERY messy.
"You’d have to be really dedicated to try it, and find a fairly unethical doctor."
What's he need an unethical doctor for? Brett would do it, and it wouldn't even bother his ethics.
"Only women can be pregnant. "
Females of any number of mammalian species can be pregnant. Are you contending that they're all women?
Your momma is a polar bear.
Had they changed a quote from someone not revered by the left does anyone think there would have been any backtracking?
There's little difference in changing language from the past and erasing statues from the past. They are both attempting to revise history to suit the present.
If men want to be surgically modified to become women, then they should modify EVERY part of the human body that's different between men and women.
Starting with the brain.
There's some decent neuroscience that transgenders already tend to have have a lot of the neurological signals of their preferred gender.
It's much more noticeable neurologically than, say homosexuality.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8
Yes, but do they have new heads? That is the question. Those looking for change will want the transformation to be a real one, I'm sure. Next up would be the rest of the central nervous system, the vascular system, skeletal, musculature, and of course glandular. Go all the way if you're serious.
"After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. "
Yeah, that's why transitioning also involves hormone therapy. What's you point?
What’s you point?
It probably had something to do with the "already tend to have" part of your claim.
Because in your imagination, somebody is turning transgender people into transgender people, it isn't something they already have.
I was being unfair to Krychek earlier. You clearly are the dumbest son-of-a-bitch on the internet.
How can this be possible, when YOU are on the Internet?
Why is the science "decent?"
Because it's peer reviewed and not superseded.
"Why is the science “decent?”"
Because the naughty bits are covered with fig leaves.
There’s some decent neuroscience that transgenders already tend to have have a lot of the neurological signals of their preferred gender.
Ah, I'm so old I can remember all the way back to ..... 2019, when Gina Rippon was the world's most famous neirobiologist, lauded universally for finally slaying the dragon of the sexed brain.
She looks fairly harmless, to be fair, but now that you have come out as a Neanderthal the gal to watch out for is Daphna Joel. You'll be on her list now, and not in a good way.
You're vastly more into the personalities involved than I am, it seems.
"If men want to be surgically modified to become women, then they should modify EVERY part of the human body that’s different between men and women.
Starting with the brain."
If Conservatives want to be considered people, then they should first accumulate all the characteristics of people.
Starting with a brain.
I'd like to thank the ACLU for highlighting the hateful transphobic bigotry of lifelong TERF RBG.
Keep up the good work of letting us know when former idols fall out of favor so they can be promptly cancelled as the White Supremacist right-wing bigots they are.
You're out of favor.
My question is, what do I do with all my RBG T-shirts, coffee mugs, placemats, totebags, etc? I'd burn them, but that wouldn't be environmentally responsible. I certainly can't put them in the trash and clutter up some landfill.
The Party should just give me an address to which I should mail all my RBG stuff, so they can put it in their Storehouse of Forbidden Items. As a side-benefit, the Party's records would then reflect that I am a good and obedient Party member who obeys their every change of line. The only downside is that I'd also be in their records as someone who used to like RBG, but I'm sure they would realize I've changed and wouldn't being me up on charges as a transphobic Ginsburgite.
Well, with a little creative editing, "RGB" can be rewritten to a different set of three letters that are currently popular in college athletic stadiums. So there's still some life left in those kotchkes.
Change careers. If you become a graphics designer, you can tell everybody it means "Red, Blue, Green".
Graphic designers will point out that their base colors are abbreviated CMY and K. Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black. Red, Green and Blue are useful for electronic display. Then they'll go on and on about the difference as if you care.
Right, the shirt would be a conversation starter!
"My question is, what do I do with all my RBG T-shirts, coffee mugs, placemats, totebags, etc?"
You should store them rectally.
"ACLU Apologizes for Bowdlerizing Ruth Bader Ginsburg Quote"
"Bowdlerizing" is a poor word choice here. Was it the ACLU that made this mistake, or whoever wrote this headline?
bowdlerize, v.- remove material that is considered improper or offensive from (a text or account), especially with the result that the text becomes weaker or less effective.
It's exactly the right word for what the ACLU did.
Only if you consider women to be improper or offensive, you twit.
No; only if you consider the word woman to be improper or offensive — and the person who altered the quote did in fact do so.
From where did you obtain this confession?
Was it the ACLU that made this mistake, or whoever wrote this headline?
At this point I'd say the real mistake was the one your parents made.
Insulting my sister accomplishes nothing, you giagantic clog in the sewer line of life. Now go away before you get any more water on the floor.
If only you'd remember to wear your helmet when you leave the house.
If only you'd been able to grow neurons.
The ACLU’s position reglects a sea change since the dark days when RBG made a quote.
Today the idea that any decisions - abortion decisions for example — should be specifi ally limited to a particular gender can be seen as bigoted, hateful discrimination. Biology today is not destiny. The idea that important life decisions should be in any way limited to or determined by biological conceptions of gender is utterly incompatible with our Constitution.
The ACLU today belatedly recognizes that today people, not women, have children. The dark days when family life could be in any way considered gender-specific are long past us. And it follows quite logically from this that the people, not the women, should be the ones making the abortion decisions.
That's seems right with the proviso that the disgust is evidence of a deep-seated belief about one's identity. I also agree that sport teams and showers raise difficult issues where it may not be correct to treat a trans person as their gender identity. However, those are exceptions to the rule they should be treated as such.
"Sour grapes!" cried the Republican!