Justice Barrett Refuses to Block Indiana University's Student Vaccination Requirement


The challengers asked the Supreme Court for an emergency injunction, generally the longest of long shots, and Justice Barrett (the Circuit Justice for the Seventh Circuit) denied it without opinion (as is the norm for such refusals).

Here's the Seventh Circuit opinion, which I blogged about 10 days ago, when it came down—Klaassen v. Trustees of Indiana Univ., denying a motion for an injunction pending appeal in an opinion by Judges Frank Easterbrook, joined by Judges Michael Scudder and Thomas Kirsch:

Starting next semester, all students at Indiana University must be vaccinated against COVID-19 unless they are exempt for religious or medical reasons. Exempt students must wear masks and be tested for the disease twice a week….

Given Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), which holds that a state may require all members of the public to be vaccinated against smallpox, there can't be a constitutional problem with vaccination against SARS-CoV-2. Plaintiffs assert that the rational-basis standard used in Jacobson does not offer enough protection for their interests and that courts should not be as deferential to the decisions of public bodies as Jacobson was, but a court of appeals must apply the law established by the Supreme Court.

Plaintiffs invoke substantive due process. Under Washington v. Glucksberg (1997), and other decisions, such an argument depends on the existence of a fundamental right ingrained in the American legal tradition. Yet Jacobson, which sustained a criminal conviction for refusing to be vaccinated, shows that plaintiffs lack such a right. To the contrary, vaccination requirements, like other public-health measures, have been common in this nation.

And this case is easier than Jacobson for the University, for two reasons.

First, Jacobson sustained a vaccination requirement that lacked exceptions for adults. But Indiana University has exceptions for persons who declare vaccination incompatible with their religious beliefs and persons for whom vaccination is medically contraindicated. The problems that may arise when a state refuses to make accommodations therefore are not present in this case. Indeed, six of the eight plaintiffs have claimed the religious exception, and a seventh is eligible for it. These plaintiffs just need to wear masks and be tested, requirements that are not constitutionally problematic. (The eighth plaintiff does not qualify for an exemption, which is why we have a justiciable controversy.)

Second, Indiana does not require every adult member of the public to be vaccinated, as Massachusetts did in Jacobson. Vaccination is instead a condition of attending Indiana University. People who do not want to be vaccinated may go elsewhere. Many universities require vaccination against SARSCoV-2, but many others do not. Plaintiffs have ample educational opportunities.

Each university may decide what is necessary to keep other students safe in a congregate setting. Health exams and vaccinations against other diseases (measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, meningitis, influenza, and more) are common requirements of higher education. Vaccination protects not only the vaccinated persons but also those who come in contact with them, and at a university close contact is inevitable.

We assume with plaintiffs that they have a right in bodily integrity. They also have a right to hold property. Yet they or their parents must surrender property to attend Indiana University. Undergraduates must part with at least $11,000 a year (in-state tuition), even though Indiana could not summarily confiscate that sum from all residents of college age.

Other conditions of enrollment are normal and proper. The First Amendment means that a state cannot tell anyone what to read or write, but a state university may demand that students read things they prefer not to read and write things they prefer not to write. A student must read what a professor assigns, even if the student deems the books heretical, and must write exams or essays as required. A student told to analyze the role of nihilism in Dostoevsky's The Possessed but who submits an essay about Iago's motivations in Othello will flunk.

If conditions of higher education may include surrendering property and following instructions about what to read and write, it is hard to see a greater problem with medical conditions that help all students remain safe when learning. A university will have trouble operating when each student fears that everyone else may be spreading disease. Few people want to return to remote education-and we do not think that the Constitution forces the distance-learning approach on a university that believes vaccination (or masks and frequent testing of the unvaccinated) will make in-person operations safe enough.

The Seventh Circuit opinion seems correct to me.


NEXT: D.C. High Court Opines on Injunctions Against Speech About People

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    1. The really good show will be when the alumni association attempts to contact these kids upon graduation — and is told to go Fire trUCK itself….

      Colleges and universities aren’t thinking about that anymore — I’m damn sure that people like Don Nico isn’t — and they are not creating the loyalty amongst students which leads to loyal alumni decades later.

      It’s a larger issue than just a vaccine fiat — but 40 years ago, institutions would have made extensive efforts to obtain student by-in to such a policy instead of just imposing it by fiat.

      And Don, you might like to look into who Winfried Libby was and why the University of Maine didn’t have riots when he was President of it — and how JFK was actually able to give a speech about Vietnam on campus, without problems.

      1. You mean these seven or eight plaintiff assholes aren’t going to contribute later?

        I doubt IU is worried about that.

        1. No, it’s the 8000 who took the shots and are quietly seething about it.

          My dad can’t even remember *why* he was pissed at his university, but nearly 50 years after graduating, still refuses to have anything to do with them. And he could have helped them, a lot, if he’d wanted to…

          1. There is nobody “seething” over getting vaccinated. It is a normal and routine procedure that every single student has gone through multiple times in the course of his life.

            And of course no Trumpkins “quietly” do anything.

            1. I’m seething just thinking about it and I’m not the victim.

              1. There is no such thing as the “victim” of a vaccination.

      2. Ed,
        Grow up. The kids can get their shots or stay home. There are many more young people who’d be happy to take their place

        1. Actually, there aren’t.

          There are so few young people that it’s been openly predicted that upwards of half of the colleges and universities that exist will be gone by the end of the decade.

          My guess is more now that the world got a view of distance learning.

          1. This makes no sense. You’re saying 50% or more higher ed institutions will close in the next 9 years? Which would mean the number of children in the pipeline would have dropped by about half. But if you look at US birth rate statistics (which do not count child immigrants), the birth rate since 1990 has declined by 32%. (16.7 births per 1000 in 1990 vs 11.4 in 2020. )

            Some universities will close, certainly. Many of those will be private, tuition-dependent institutions like Christian universities and secular liberal arts schools with low recognition. I don’t see states shutting down public university systems any time soon. The country’s largest such system, California State University, has consistently high demand at most of their campuses and turns away qualified students for lack of seats.

            I don’t know who “openly predicted” that over half of our higher ed institutions in the US would close by 2030, but the data doesn’t support that.

      3. “who Winfried Libby was”
        I couldn’t care in the least.

        1. Never mind the facts – your mind is made up.

      4. To repeat Zywicki’s argument, 34 million people had COVID. They have immunity. The infected should be exempted.

    2. As expected – Don first in line here praising the govt making people that dont need it get this half-ass vax.

  1. well that last line of defense for freedom and liberty went down fast

    1. Yea the legal eagles always find a loophole for government tyranny. They have been working overtime the last year solidifying the suspension of the constitution clause (can’t find it maybe Prof Volokh can) in the constitution.

      Notice how they never discuss it really

        1. S_0,
          It’s not fair to ask such hard questions.

        2. I think it’s reasonable to consider where this can go next (since this is a legal blog). The precedent is that a vaccine under EUA whose primary trial endpoint was disease reduction (and distinctly *not* transmission reduction, as we see with Delta in Israel) is mandated on students and large swaths of employment in the US.

          What can we mandate next? How about setting a maximum weight and cholesterol levels for all incoming students? Let’s insist that only non-smokers in good health be allowed to come on campus. While we’re at it, everyone over 60 should be banned from campus because there is evidence that their immune response to the vaccine is often weak.

          1. I think it is a damn shame and failure of our educational system that young men and women graduate from high school while morbidly obese. Surely, there was time to train them in proper exercise and healthy eating. No one has to join the track team just to use the track. If 9th graders know that they will have to run a 16 minute two mile run to graduate, then we begin to produce more productive citizens.

      1. Yes, the “tyranny” of saying that you have to be vaccinated to attend a public school, a rule which has existed for decades.

        1. A vaccine is effective — this fraudulent infection is less than 24% effective.

          And not having to deal with this crap is yet one more thing making on-line universities even more attractive.

          1. “this fraudulent infection is less than 24% effective.”
            What in the world are you talking about Ed. The comment of your posts gets less and less by the minute.
            Tell your crappola abut fraudulent infection to the families of all who have died.

            1. Someone died. Therefore everyone else’s rights are hereby suspended. You have a lot of gall telling anyone else to grow up.

              1. What right has been suspended?

              2. Callahan, some 630.000 American someones died.
                Grow up.

            2. 400000 nursing home patients die each year. That number needs to be deducted from the COVID deaths. That leaves 100000 excess deaths in 2020. The majority of them came from undiagnosed and untreated cancer and heart disease. The Democrat mass murderers shut down outpatient medical care. Only a small fraction of the excess deaths remain. As a coincidence, the 60000 flu deaths disappeared.

              The oligarchs increased their wealth by $1.7 trillion from the Democrat lockdown. That is the biggest fraud heist in history. Those of China scored $2trillion.

              1. David,
                The statistics on excess deaths are so noisy world wide that trying to deduce anything from them is meaningless.
                But if you smother a critically ill patient in a nursing home with a pillow, it is still murder.

            3. Apparently Don Nico is unaware of the CDC, which said that 76% of those infected in P-Town had been fully vaccinated.

              Or perhaps he doesn’t care about facts.

              I honestly have no doubt that he actually is an academic administrator….

              1. Ed,
                I am fully aware of the P-town statistic.
                What are you trying to prove. There are many other statistics, but as a simple education major, you know little to nothing about the size of statistical fluctuation.
                It is known that the B.1.167.2 variant can reduce efficacy to 82% (for Pfizer) and reduce vaccine efficiency (yes, Ed those are different) even more.

                And to lay another of your stupidities to rest, I am NOT an academic administrator

          2. Would you like a vaccine shot?

            I wont get vaccinated if its for free
            I wont get vaccinated its not for me

            Would you like it at CVS?

            I will not take it at CVS
            I will not take it, its BS

            Would you like it in a pew?
            Would you take it at the U?

            I will not take it in a church
            Muh freedom thing you do besmirch
            I will not take it at the school
            You must think me for a fool

            Would you take it for a bill?
            Would you take it to build goodwill?

            Not for a bill. Not to build goodwill.
            Not in a church. Not in a school.
            Not at CVS. Its such BS.
            I will not take it Ed-I-am

            Would you, could you, to fly the skies?
            Take it, take it, here it is!

            I will not, just to fly the skies.

            You may get sick, you will see.
            You should get it, go mask free.

            I will not get it, let me be!
            I wont get it just to fly the skies
            I will not get it for a bill
            I will not get it to build goodwill
            I will not get it at CVS
            This whole vaccine thing is just BS!

            1. Very Good. Maybe Ted Cruz could read it on the Senate floor.

        2. Those public school vaccines existed for decades and their safety proven.
          12000 kids did not die of those vaccines in a few months.
          We are not asked for our vaccine records for day to day living.

          1. 12,000 people of any age haven’t died from the vaccine no matter what FOX and Q tell you.

    2. lesse.. crowded dorm

      crowded cafeteria

      crowded parties

      but muh rights! I have the right to infect as many people as I can!

      1. “lesse.. crowded dorm
        crowded cafeteria
        crowded classes
        standing in long lines for everything…”

        1: You are describing why the large undergraduate university is inherently doomed.

        2: Much as the body fluids protocols that were adapted in response to AIDS are now mainstream social policy, I believe that the protocols regarding airborne aresols, notably social distancing, will remain. It’s not fun to be jammed into places…

        1. “why the large undergraduate university is inherently doomed.”
          What in the world did they teach in education courses? Certainly nothing about the real world.
          But carry on strutting in your chicken little costume

          1. He isn’t a D.Ed, he’s Mr Ed the talking horse pretending to be a doctor…

            1. One of the more practical things they teach in the higher education curriculum (one of my *three* graduate degrees) involves the financing of higher education and something known as “enrollment management”, aka keeping the seats filled with warm bodies.

              Budgets involve something known as “money”, which has to come from somewhere, and with the exception of endowment revenue, comes only because you have warm bodies in those seats. Tuition revenue, State E&G revenue, even a good chunk of donor money comes ONLY because you have those warm bodies in those seats.

              Just sayin….

              1. Ed,
                From what you write here it seems that the only thing you took up in graduate school was space

          2. Because along with the magical money tree in DC, there is also another magical building that produces 18-year-olds able & willing to go to college.

            Where do you propose obtaining all the warm bodies to fill your seats FROM???

            1. Ed,
              There are many brown children coming across our southern border. Your gloom and doom is never coming to pass until the US population begins to decline

        2. This totally makes sense given how we handled measles and chicken pox is schools!

          Oh… wait.

    3. There is no reasonable definition of “freedom” that includes the freedom to spread a deadly virus.

      1. “Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.” Justice Louis Brandeis.

        1. Ed,
          I actually disagree with Brandeis.

          The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in stupid people.

          1. Brandeis wasn’t concerned about stupid people.

            Instead, he was concerned by well-intended men of zeal, such as yourself. In fact, that’s what he explicitly stated….

            1. As I said, Brandeis was wrong

      2. MollyBitch the paid troll wants you to know she was told to post this.

        1. Do you have any proof of your slander?
          If so, put up or shut up.

      3. And if the rule was against an infected person deliberately interacting with crowds while symptomatic, your opinion might be relevant.

      4. There is no reasonable definition of “freedom” that includes the freedom to spread a deadly virus.

        Influenza is a deadly virus — I know that’s inconvenient for the narrative, but it remains indisputably true. So is RSV. So is rhinovirus, etc. etc. Lots of people get them, and some die. Every year, like clockwork.

        Did the scope of the reasonable definition of “freedom” just change dramatically in the past 18 months?

  2. Serious question. What vaccines is it ok to require and which is it not ok? Most colleges in America require proof of a shit ton of vaccinations. And frequently if one is a little stale you’ve got to get a booster. Where is the line?

    1. Usually, it is OK to require a vaccine fully approved by the FDA following established protocols for long term effects on all the groups and sub-groups (say the group of ‘women’, and the sub-group ‘women of childbearing age’) that may take the vaccine.
      It should not be OK to require a vaccine which is only “emergency” use” authorized, and has not been studied for long term effects.
      (Your supreme court may differ)

      1. It should not be OK to require a vaccine which is only “emergency” use” authorized, and has not been studied for long term effects.

        You do no full approval will also not include studying for long term effects, right? You do know the difference is largely protocols that do not apply to a widely distributed vaccine, right?

        Tell me, will you be getting the vaccine once it’s fully FDA approved, or will you still be insisting it’s an unneeded risk?

        Nah, you’re making arbitrary distinctions to try and justify supporting the one thing and not the other.

        1. Once the vaccine is FDA approved they will come up with a different reason not to take it.

          1. Exactly. It’s always moving goalposts.

            They wouldn’t do a trial (fair.) They won’t do it with EUA even though it has billions of recipients thus far. Then once it gets full approval here in a month or so it’ll be “freedumb” or some equally dumb and vapid “reason” that they won’t take it.

            You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

            1. It’s a twofer for the paid trolls on reason koch.

            2. It’s worse than that. The very same people who claim that they’re waiting for full approval for this allegedly untested drug — the same people, mind you, who routinely rail against big government red tape — are happy to tout aquarium cleaner and horse dewormer as alternatives, despite neither of those being approved or tested on hundreds of millions of people for covid.

              1. The very same people . . . are happy to tout aquarium cleaner and horse dewormer as alternatives

                You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution. And you, sir, are part of the problem. Shame on you.

              2. David, the aquarium cleaner and horse dewormer was a murder but not pursued as such because the anti-Trump political narrative was far to valuable.

        2. You do no full approval will also not include studying for long term effects, right?

          Whew — I feel MUCH better now!

          1. Yeah, asking for the impossible tends to be a masturbatory exercise.

      2. The constitution does not turn on whether particular paperwork has been filed with the FDA. If it were actually a violation of one’s rights to require that one be vaccinated — a claim that has no support — then “full approval” would not change that.

        1. I don’t think so. The courts weight “compelling government interest” and it would be more compelling if the vaccine was approved.

          1. Maybe slightly better optics, but scarcely more than a feather on the scale.

          2. The compelling government interest test only applies to fundamental rights, and in any case whether the vaccine has been fully approved or only EUA approved has nothing to do with whether the government’s interest is compelling.

      3. This rule is completely made up. The vaccine at issue in Jacobson was not FDA-approved (the FDA didn’t exist then). FDA approval has literally nothing to do with a state’s exercise of its police powers, let alone the operation of its own universities.

      4. I’m just imaging the consequences of female alumni having trouble getting pregnant a decade from now — possibly because of other factors such as the five abortions they had in college — but you know how rumors are.

        Yep, I think that colleges will have some serious public and political problems as a consequence of these fiats.

        Not that any of them are thinking about the long-term well-being of their institutions, not when the average admin tenure is what — four years now?

        1. Yes, but that’s because you’re special needs. This is all delusion.

          1. Thalidomide was special needs as well. The comment section in a pro-libertarian blog sure has gone straight to the statists.

            1. Are you secretly Dr. Ed’s sockpuppet?

              Because otherwise, you don’t need to defend his crazy theories.

              1. Per your observation above that no long-term studies have been or will be done, you have no basis to say the theory is crazy.

                Unless “crazy” is just your shorthand for “something I really don’t want to happen and really don’t want to think about anyway since it makes me uncomfortable.”

                1. They’ve tested it’s effect on pregnant women, Brian.

                  Burden of proof does not mean you need to countenance people Assuming a 5-years down the line long-term common side-effect with information as of yet suggest a mechanism or hint that’ll be true, along side tossing off 5 abortions they had in college?

                  Ed is speaking from a realm of pure imagination.

                  1. They’ve tested it’s effect on pregnant women

                    I know you’re just spraying shit around and don’t care, but how is “pregnant women didn’t immediately die” the slightest bit relevant to Ed’s original concern of long-term infertility?

                    1. And Ed isn’t even supposing that the “vaccine” is the actual cause of the woman’s future reproductive difficulties — only that she THINKS that it is…..

                      Imagine a half dozen members of the state legislature, circa 2040, who think that the state university’s vaccine mandate was why they are now childless. How might that affect the debate and vote on said state university’s budget allocation???

                      Five dedicated legislators, who have gotten themselves on key committees, could be a major headache for said state university…

                      And it doesn’t really matter if the mandated “vaccine” actually had anything to do with her problems.

                    2. Because side effects have a mechanism of action.

                      You really need to lay off on defending Ed’s hypothetical-but-it’s-true bullcrap.

                      Even he has now backpedaled to ‘ what if delusional people get into the state legislature?’ Leaving you just hanging out there by yourself.

                  2. Ed,
                    You contention is pure fantasy on your part. There is no evidence that ANY of the vaccines being used world wide will lead to infertility in women or sterility in men.

                    As I said elsewhere, you seem to have a fertile immagination and we all know what the fertilizer is.

            2. Callahan, learn to read better. It is Ed that is special needs

        2. Dr. Ed 2 : “I’m just imaging the consequences of female alumni having trouble getting pregnant a decade from now”

          In a way, this is disappointing. Not because it’s nonsense; everyone expects that from this source. But Nostradamus Ed used to make grand sweeping predictions of the future. Sure, every single damn one was ludicrous, but it was a grandiose ludicrous. Now he seems to hedge his jokey predictions with this qualification or that.

          Much less fun for the rest of us.

      5. Well,
        Longo, next month the FDA will grant full approval and you can pound tar with this nonsense line

        1. They’re already digging to post holes for the coming move…

      6. So when the FDA fully approves Pfizer at the end of the month as they’re expected to do, can we stop having this dumb discussion?

        1. jb,
          of course not. The Clowns will come up with some other excuses inspired by their Orange Leader

          1. It is kind of touching, though, the sudden fondness and trust for the judgement of a federal regulatory agency.

            1. Yes,
              it’s a good thing to find the silver lining occasionally.

    2. In a crowded dorm/cafeteria with other students?

      Probably no line at all.

      There is no right to a college. If you don’t like the rules, dont go.

      1. And when people don’t go????

        1. Where did chicken little get his ideas about the collapse of the American university system?

          1. Ummm, does the Harvard Business School and Forbes Magazine count? See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelhorn/2018/12/13/will-half-of-all-colleges-really-close-in-the-next-decade/?sh=6496171652e5

            Remember that this was written pre-Covid….

            1. Ed,
              Did you read the “or merge” in the article.
              You might as well predict that the US economy will shrink by 50% because of all the businesses that close or merge every year.

        2. Nobody isn’t going, Ed.

        3. On the one hand you complain Universities do nothing but indoctrinate kids with left wing CRT nonsense, on the other you complain about kids not going.

          Kids who go to college are required to be vaccinated against a whole host of things. No shoes, no shirt, no vaccine, no service.

    3. Like any encroachment on fundamental reasons, the state has to provide a clear and reasonable, fact-based explanation for the need of the mandate in lieu of any alternative remedy.

      As of today, I don’t see what a vaccine *mandate* buys in terms of COVID transmission. The vaccine does reduce an individual’s risk of severe COVID, but so does outdoor exercise – why don’t we mandate that instead?

      1. You gave the reason yourself. There is no alternative remedy.

  3. I expect life to become increasingly difficult for Americans who choose to reject vaccination (without a damned good reason, which might include compromised immune systems but should never include adult-onset superstition). No games, no in-person schools, no jobs, no shops, no concerts.

    Accountability should be celebrated. Belligerent Ignorance and lethal recklessness should have consequences.

    1. Artie the bigoted fascist rears his head once more.

      1. Fascist because society is deciding to shun those who won’t give a damn about the rest of it?


        More like crying little snowflake bemoans that people will hold him/her responsible for their decisions. Like your freedom? Good- go practice it over there away from the rest of us.

        Also, if you’re so smart to not get a vaccine and think doctors are quacks, don’t fucking bother coming to the hospital if you get sick. Have some goddamn pride and ride it out because you know best.

        1. When you people demand we do something against our own will, you shouldn’t be surprised when we don’t give a damn about you. You certainly don’t give a damn about us.

          1. We do not want your damns. We will have your compliance.

          2. I Callahan : “When you people demand we do something against our own will”

            Most people learn they have to do things “against their own will” by the age of three. It’s called growing up. I swear half the so-called Libertarians on this site sound like arrested-development adolescent males, still seething with rage because Mommy made them eat their brussels sprouts as a child. Me? I like brussels sprouts.

            But seriously : If you care about Freedom and respect the very word itself, then these comments can be painful reading. Because it seems like the life mission of people like I Callahan is to debase and cheapen the word. Freedom means more that a child’s blue-face tantrum because he has to share the world with others.

            1. Remember when conservatives and their libertarian cousins used to talk about “responsibility” as being integral to individual freedom? Now it’s just “me me me” in a never ending chorus of incel foot-stomping.

        2. No fascist because he posts shit about replacing people and about forcing behavior down people’s throats. Constantly posting that shit.

          So his being a fascist has nothing to do with who is or isn’t taking the vaccine.

          1. The replacement occurs when conservative bigots die off in the natural course and are replaced in our electorate and society by younger and better people. Nothing authoritarian about that, despite the fever dreams of half-educated clingers.

            You get to whimper all you like, as do all of the disaffected right-wingers. But you will comply with the preferences of better Americans. That is the fate of culture war losers. They do as their betters prescribe. Or maybe you could try to ditch the bigotry, the backwardness, the childish superstition, and the ignorance, and try to become a productive, mainstream member of society. Do as you wish, but it won’t affect the point that guys like you will lose and guys like you will comply.

        3. Aw the paid troll sock replied. Fuck off.

          1. Open wider, clinger.

      2. Artie is too clueless to be a Fascist.

    2. I seem to remember the same thing being said about draft registration 40 years ago.

      And now we’ve had a President (Obama) who didn’t register…

      1. What about those Red Sox, Ed?

      2. Yes he did, Special Ed. You don’t have to lie about everything.

        1. Yes, he does David.
          The man (I suppose) just cannot help it. But it is sad.

        2. The postmark is wrong.

          1. You’re fabricating things again.

  4. Not for nothing, but smallpox has a fatality rate of something like 9 out of 10, NCoV is nowhere near this, even when amplified by irrational fears. Vaccines are the way to go, but those who purport to support civil rights and liberties are spending a lot of time cheerleading bad data and worse decision-making.

    1. If you’re trying to remind us that people have been whining about vaccination mandates to combat dangerous diseases as long as there have been vaccines, well, so?

      1. As the statistics have been censored there is no way to answer this, but I strongly suspect that the vaccine is more lethal than the disease in the 18-22 year old cohort.

        And that’s without long-term issues like cancer and fertility issues, anyone remember Agent Orange?

        Or the bizarre medical issues that the folks who went to Saudi Arabia for the first gulf war seem to have? Some suspect that was vaccine-related…

        1. You suspicion is way off. Covid is far more risky then the vaccine for all age groups.

            1. Ignorant, triggered clingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.

          1. DATA????

            If this were true, the data would be available….

            1. The data is easily available if you look for it.

            2. Let’s take a real number COVID deaths in the US and compare it against the worst, conspiracy theorist ginned up number for deaths from the vaccine. Easy enough.

              COVID deaths: 620k (source: NYT)
              COVID vaccine deaths: 12k* (source: Facebook conspiracy theorists)

              So even if you use the entirely unscientific and unproven 12K number for vaccine deaths, the disease is much worse than the vaccine.

              *Actual vaccine deaths due to anaphylaxis or other causes are estimated here at far, far fewer numbers:

        2. Ed,
          Both stupid and irresponsible with not a shred of evidence to back up your statement.
          Try posting that on Facebook

        3. Ed, your assertion about the 18 to 22 year olds is made up whole cloth. You’re complaining about made up bullshit while making up bullshit.

        4. This is like some disinformation post that gets spread around Facebook. “The statistics have been censored!” “So believe the thing I’m making up!”

        5. Dr. Ed 2: “As the statistics have been censored…..”

          Yep. As the statistics have been censored there is no way to answer this, but I strongly suspect the vaccine turns people into mindless fresh-eating zombies. I grant there are no reports of massive zombie hoards roaming the countryside looking to eat brains, but that news is probably being censored as well.

          Damn those censors !!!

      2. You appear to endorse a long and glorious (albeit debatable) history of vaccines, and yet the seemingly quickly devised Covid shots of the past year are not vaccines but experimental RNA manipulating shots.

        Well, so?

        1. Miss Grasshoper,
          You are way off the mark. These shots do not manipulate your genes. That is what you are trying to imply.

          1. Mr. Don’t be Nice,
            You are either seriously misinformed or intentionally creating a false argument.

            Look into the RNA customized splicing feature of the shots, or know that strawmen, such as yours, are the stuff of the Wizard of Oz and children’s stories.

            (Really, “Grasshoper”?)

            1. More nonsense. That’s just not true.

            2. RNA customized splicing feature

              Not a thing.
              RNA editing is somewhat involved in the creation of the shots, but not in the shots themselves.

              Seems like someone read a headline, misunderstood it, posted a clickbait article, and you got taken in.

              1. You basically said nothing, SarcastrO.

                Is there splicing in of synthetic RNA and via the vaccine delivery system or not?

                Gobbledygook and strawmen objections don’t cut it.

                1. “splicing in of synthetic RNA and via the vaccine delivery system”
                  the question is unintelligible.
                  the messenger RNA is synthesized. Its binding to the cell’s receptors “teach” the cell how to recognize the virus and to activate the various mechanisms of the immune system. The vaccine does nothing to alter the recipient’s genome.
                  Is that more clear?

                2. The mRNA in the vaccine isn’t the type of RNA that is found in the cell nucleus and is involved with cell replication. It is simply used by the cell to manufacture a certain protein – in this case the protein found in the coronavirus “spike.” Then the immune system develops antibodies against this protein. The mRNA never enters the cell nucleus and doesn’t affect any processes in there.

                  As Don Nico told you, no gene manipulation, which is clearly what your question was trying to imply.

  5. If the line should stop at certain, perhaps many, institutions barring access to the unvaccinated, those places could then be regarded as non-essential and good riddance to them and their misinformed discrimination or blatant fascism.

    But the line won’t stop, will it?

    Globalism was never intended to include the whole world, only the go-alongs, minions, submissives, and operatives.

    1. Sigh. Schools have required vaccinations for literally decades. And remember, we’re talking about the Trump Vaccine. Even he got his shots. None of this is fascist.

      1. Darwinnie.

        All Presidents are of the system. I’m not a MAGA delusional, nor a blue pill crazy.

        These RNA manipulating shots are not traditional “vaccines.” They fared extremely badly in animal studies over the past years, and yet they’re now unleashed upon the global population as “authorized for experimental use.”

        Go ahead and take the series. with more boosters going to suggested or mandated to come.

        We are the new lab rats. May we survive the mRNA “therapy” injections better than those previous animals, or be free to refuse them.

        1. (Edit: Go ahead and take the series, with more boosters going to be suggested or mandated to come.

          Sometimes you’re lucky typing in the dark, other times you have to own up to edits.)

          1. Let me make a constructive suggestion.

            There are literally hundreds of papers published in high qua;ity. impact medical science journals that describe the action of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. How each type of vaccine platform works, how the vaccines respond to different variants, how immunity derived from previous infection may be different to vaccine induced immunity, vaccine side effects, etc.

            Don’t read just one, maybe cherry-picked by a commenter, read 20 or 30 and make a well-informed judgement about the efficiency, efficacy, desirability, side-effects and so forth.
            If you want you can subscribe (free) to COVID-19 science updates, which will print the abstracts of a few papers in top peer-reviewed journal every day.

            1. Nico,

              Are you even reading the current news and between the lines as to these “vaccines” and their openly recognized lack of efficacy and the subsequent promotion of boosters as being necessary for subgroups of the vaccinated now, and perhaps everyone later?

              Are you even reading about the suppressed reports of Covid “vax” adverse effects, to include induced disability, disease, and death in significant numbers, and likely greater than we’ll ever know? Have you looked at the juxtaposition of malady and death numbers wrt enduring Covid to the adverse effects of receiving the jab?

              Over the last year, I’ve read a number of institutional medical abstracts and credentialed counter opinions to the current orthodoxy, and it’s the latter that appear to have been correct regarding this “vaccine’s” leakage, induced variants, and harmful effects upon recipients.

              These days in the government’s media, it’s a circus of distraction and dis-info, of hype and hysteria for profit and control of the less aware. Just this week, a booster has has been approved even before the experimental “vaccine” has been sanctioned by the FDA, and vaccine passports are being talked up to use as a new order gatekeeper to interstate travel within this sovereign country, soon.

              1. Miss G,
                I do not get my science information in physics, chemistry or medicines from newspapers. I read original source material in high reputation journals.
                I’ll give you a list to start with if you’d like.
                Don’t just read abstracts of some papers. Struggle through the entire thing. Subscribe to https://covid1.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share. And at least look at a broad spectrum of abstracts in top journals every day

                Is there vaccine leakage? Yes. Is it so large that the vaccines are not worth taking? No.

                Are there variants? Yes. Are they induced by the vaccines? No, there is no proof of that. They are induced in people who have very long COVID cases and in explosions of the pandemic in places such as India, Brazil, South Africa, Peru before vaccinations started there started.

                Are there harmful effects on recipients? Yes. My son and I have those. Are they so many that the vaccines are dangerous? No. In the entire world with a billion shots there are fewer than 1000 grace consequences, Orders of magnitudes less than the 4.4 million deaths due to COVID-19.

                I have already criticized your dishonest use of “experimental” to describe any of the 22 vaccines now in use.
                As for the “pass sanitaire” it is almost inevitable given the present course of the Delta driven pandemic.

        2. You clearly have not read anything about the underlying work to produce a vaccine. No, actually 22 vaccines. You don’t understand how mRNA vaccines work; so you make up fanciful mechanisms.
          Such comments are truly pathetic and why I told Ed that the worst threat was not from well-intentioned people but from stupid people.

          1. Nico,
            It is your rebuttal that is beyond pathetic and lacking in documented specifics.

            I have read a great deal about these experimental injections, and they are still officially experimental, or did you know?

            Might as well accuse you of knowing nothing and sharing nothing but personal slander.

            It’s the stupid and partisan people who resort to such tactics,

            1. “Still experimental” And what are you going to complain about in one month when full approval is given?
              BnT162b2 and mRnA-1273 are NOT experimental. They are approved for emergency use and when have full approval in September.
              What kind of material have you read about those vaccines, that you erroneously call experimental injections? What journals do you read? Give me a few names.

              I admit to being partisan against deliberately ignorant people.

              1. The mRNA “vax” are considered to be and are properly called “experimental”; if you’ve read the lit you’ve claimed to have read, your reading comprehension is nigh to nil.

                That you speak of “deliberately ignorant people” in a completely unironic and self unaware way has to be the icing to your celebrated moth cake.

                1. The vaccines are not experimental. That is dishonest. The quality literature (in Nature, Science, New England Journal of Medicine, etc) does not call them experimental. They we experimental a year ago. They have been through clinical trials. When you use descriptors falsely, you are either ignorant or lying.

                2. Have you even looked at
                  Nat Rev Immunol. 2021 Aug 9 : 1–11.
                  You’ll find 96 references about SARS-CoV-2 vaccines to follow-up on to get started.

            2. Bust since you asked, start here:
              Nat Rev Immunol. 2021 Aug 9 : 1–11.
              You’ll find 96 references about SARS-CoV-2 vaccines to follow-up on to get started.

    2. “those places could then be regarded as non-essential ” to the unvaccinated. Nothing says that you have to use those facilities or venues.

  6. The Supreme Court has simply reconfirmed its long-standing policy that where there is sufficient fear, there are no civil liberties.

    1. Absolutely. You’d better go hide in your cave.

    2. It’s like Korematsu all over again.

      1. ” Just look at Korematsu.”
        And what about those Red Sox?

      2. Guardian253, read Justice Robert Jackson’s dissent on Korematsu. There you may discover why you can’t really use, “Korematsu,” as shorthand for tyranny. If you don’t get that, find someone smart to explain Jackson to you.

    3. Isn’t that the business model for FOX News, OANN, NewsMax, et al?

  7. So let me get this straight. We cannot forcibly chemically castrate sex offenders and pedophiles even though they are more of a threat to society than a flu bug, but it’s okay to forcibly vaccinate healthy people, with healthy immune systems, based on suspect and unproven science with no due process whatsoever. Right. The 7th Circuit and SCOTUS got it wrong. When inmates have more rights than citizens, then the 7th Circuit and SCOTUS are wrong. When inmates can turn down vaccines, but free citizens are retaliated against for not taking a vaccine, they are wrong. When inmates and those civilly committed have more procedural and substantive due process rights than free citizens, then they are wrong. Relying on pass bad law is wrong. Just look at Korematsu.

    1. “based on suspect and unproven science”
      You could not be more wrong
      “with no due process whatsoever.”
      Students have the right to request a review and ask for an exception. Six of the IU students have such an exception.

      Learn a few facts before commenting

    2. ” Just look at Korematsu.”
      And what about those Red Sox?

    3. Nobody is being forcibly vaccinated in this case. Which makes the entire rest of your rant wrong.

      And, btw, it’s generally healthy people with healthy immune systems who get vaccinated.

      1. It doesn’t matter how healthy your immune system is, if that system doesn’t recognize a certain viral protein as an enemy and hasn’t developed antibodies to fight it. Hence the vaccine. Your healthy immune system is primed to fight the virus BEFORE you become dangerously ill.

  8. Whatever happened to all the libertarians? Where have they all gone? Nothing but silence from Bill Weld, Ron Paul, and Gary Johnson.

    1. They’re in line getting their vaccine… but wearing a disguise.

    2. Where have all the libertarians gone
      Long time asking
      where have all the libertarians gone.
      long time ago,
      where have all the libertarians gone
      gone to Progs and (medical) totalitarians every one,
      when will they ever learn
      when will they ever… learn.

      Where have all the Prog and totalitarians gone
      long time ago
      where have all the Prog and totalitarians gone
      gone to the beast system everyone
      when will they ever learn
      when will they ever… learn.

      1. I guess this doggerel is supposed to pass for a song lyric

        1. Creeps just gotta hound, eh?

  9. I know that in federal circuit courts, a panel of the circuit is bound by precedent of previous decisions issued by the en banc court. Is Justice Barrett, acting on her own as the circuit justice, similarly bound by precedent from Supreme Court decisions?

    1. That’s not really the right phrasing, because a circuit justice isn’t deciding the case. But one of the key factors in determining whether to grant a stay is likelihood of success on the underlying claim, and of course Supreme Court precedent affects that likelihood of success. (But it doesn’t determine it because SCOTUS can change its precedent.)

  10. As an expatriate, I’m curious, do English speakers also have problems writing essays? I just think it’s almost the most difficult assignment in the language issue. It seems to me that this version of the assignment is the most difficult because you can make a lot of mistakes. I’m also wondering if I should use websites like https://www.essayedge.com/? There are a lot of useful articles there, but is it worth paying attention to?

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