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Can The Impeachment Process Disqualify Former-Governor Cuomo From Running For Re-Election?
Re-upping a post I wrote with Seth Barrett Tillman in March
Governor Cuomo has now resigned. But that resignation does not necessarily moot the impeachment process. Indeed, Charles Lavine, the state Assembly Judiciary Committee Chair, said there would still be a purpose to impeach Cuomo: "there would be the opportunity in the court of impeachment to prohibit him from ever occupying statewide office." Is this step even needed? Chuck Todd, for one, suggested that Cuomo could make a political comeback. The more important question is whether the New York Assembly can legally prevent Cuomo for running for re-election. Several commentators have stated, as a matter of fact, the Assembly could disqualify Cuomo from the Governor's mansion (see here, here, and here). The issue is not so clear.
In March, Seth Barrett Tillman and I performed a careful comparison of the New York Constitution of 1894 and the United States Constitution of 1788. Our research has some bearing on the disqualification question. I repost our work after the jump.
For those curious, this question easily checks all three of my boxes. If it were up to me, I would be happy to never see Governor Cuomo in political office. He threatened me over the phone, and flagrantly violated the religious liberty of my clients in his official and individual capacity (the latter claim remains against him). Thankfully, a written Constitution, and not the political passions of the day ought to control.
In this post, we will compare the impeachment process under the United States Constitution (1788) and the New York Constitution (1894). First, the quorum rule makes impeachment more difficult in New York. Second, the New York Constitution does not impose substantive limitations on the scope of impeachable offenses. Third, the New York Constitution creates a specially constituted court to try impeachments, and that court includes members of the state judiciary. Fourth, it is unclear whether the New York Constitution permits the legislature to disqualify an impeached office holder from holding elected state positions.
I. The Quorum Rules Make Impeachment More Difficult In New York.
Under both constitutions, an impeachment is brought by the lower legislative chamber: the New York Assembly and the United States House of Representatives. And, under both constitutions, it takes a majority to impeach. U.S. Const. art. I, § 2, cl. 5; id. art. I, § 5, cl. 1; N.Y. Const. art. VI, § 24; id. art. III, § 9. But what precisely constitutes a "majority" under each procedure is not the same. The quorum and voting rules differ.
First, in an impeachment before the House of Representatives, a quorum must be present. And under the Constitution, a simple majority constitutes a quorum. If a quorum is present, a covered officeholder can be impeached by a simple majority of those voting yea or nay. Currently, the House has 435 authorized members. Assume all 435 authorized members are elected, and none have died, resigned, or been expelled. A majority, or 218 members, will constitute a quorum. Given a 218 member quorum, a President or other covered officeholder could be impeached by a 110-to-108 vote. Indeed, if 217 of 218 members are merely present but fail to vote, then, in theory, a vote of 1-to-zero will carry an impeachment resolution.
Second, by contrast, the New York impeachment process requires a majority of all elected members, whether they are present or not. In the New York Assembly, it is not enough to have a majority of those voting. Members of the Assembly who do not vote have, in effect, cast a vote against the impeachment resolution. Currently, in the New York Assembly, there are 150 authorized members. Assume all 150 members are elected, and none have died, resigned, or been expelled. 76 members are needed to carry an impeachment resolution—without regard to whether the other members are present or vote against the impeachment resolution.
The quorum rule makes impeachment more difficult in New York. In the federal system, about 1/4 of the members of the House (if not fewer) can carry an impeachment resolution. However, in New York, an impeachment resolution requires just over 1/2 the members of the Assembly.
II. The New York Constitution (1894) Does Not Impose Substantive Limitations On The Scope of Impeachable Offenses.
Under the U.S. Constitution, the House can impeach a covered officeholder for "treason, bribery, or other high crimes misdemeanors." U.S. Const. art. II, § 4. The scope of this language has long been debated. To this day, people disagree about whether this provision includes only statutory crimes, or wrongs specifically related to the duties associated with the impeachment defendant's position, or both. Yet, historically, there has been and remains widespread agreement that this language furnishes a substantive limit on what charges the House can proffer in articles of impeachment.
Similarly, New York's first post-independence state constitution also had a substantive limitation on the impeachment power. Under Article 33 of the New York Constitution of 1777, the power to impeach was limited to "mal and corrupt conduct in their respective offices." But that limitation was dropped in a subsequent state constitution: the New York Constitution of 1846. Article VI, § 1 of the 1846 state constitution simply states that "The assembly shall have the power of impeachment, by the vote of the majority of all the members elected." There was no substantive limitation on the nature of the charges which the Assembly may bring. Likewise, under the current state constitution, i.e., the New York Constitution of 1894, there is no substantive limitation on the nature of the charges which the Assembly may bring. Article IV, § 13 of the 1894 state constitution, which is now in force, provides, "The Assembly shall have the power of impeachment, by a vote of a majority of all the members elected." Thus, unlike the U.S. House acting under the aegis of the U.S. Constitution, the New York Assembly is vested with the widest possible discretion. Governor Samuel J. Tilden recognized the breadth of the Assembly's authority in his commentaries on the New York Constitution. Tilden compared the New York Constitution to the Massachusetts Constitution (1780), which defines the scope of impeachment as extending to "misconduct and maladministration." Tilden wrote:
The doubt which seemed to exist in the mind of that great jurist [Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court Chief Justice Shaw] arose from the words of description [that is, limitation] of impeachable offenses in the Constitution of Massachusetts [of 1780], which literally relate only to acts done or omitted in office.
The Constitution and laws of the State of New York have left us free from any possibility of so narrow a construction as that which Chief Justice Shaw disputed in its application to the Constitution of Massachusetts. They recognize the principle that a personal crime may create a personal disqualification to exercise the functions of a public office, although the particular offense may be totally disconnected with that office. They do not limit the range of impeachable acts, omissions, or defaults which may work such a disqualification to any term of office or to any time or place, but leave the whole judgment as to whether or not the disqualification is produced to the supreme and exclusive jurisdiction of the High Court of Impeachment . . . .
1 The Writings and Speeches of Samuel J. Tilden 482 (John Bigelow, ed., N.Y., Harper Brothers 1885) (emphasis added); see also id. ch. XXV—What are Impeachable Offenses, 472–82.
III. The New York Constitution Creates A Specially Constituted Court, That Includes Members of the Judiciary.
Under the U.S. Constitution of 1788, impeachments are tried in the Senate. The presiding officer of the Senate is the Vice President. However, if the President is the defendant in an impeachment trial, then the Chief Justice presides. (There is some debate about what happens under the federal Constitution if the Vice President is on trial.) Conviction by the Senate requires 2/3 of the members present (a quorum being present). U.S. Const. art. I, § 3, cls. 4 and 6.
Under the New York Constitution of 1894, impeachments are tried in a specially constituted court for the trial of impeachments. That court is composed of the (1) lieutenant governor, or in some circumstances, the president of the state Senate, (2) members of the Senate, and (3) members of New York's highest court: the Court of Appeals. The New York Constitution provides a modified process if the governor or lieutenant governor is tried: in these circumstances, then the lieutenant governor and the temporary president of the Senate are not members of the impeachment court. Conviction requires two thirds of the members present. N.Y. Const. art. VI, § 24; id. art. III, § 9 (explaining that "the senate shall choose a temporary president"). One expert on New York impeachment has asserted that the Chief Judge of the Court of Appeal would preside where a governor is on trial. However, in an 1872 New York State impeachment, the Lieutenant Governor presided over the trial proceedings.
IV. The Consequences of Impeachment and Disqualification under the New York State Constitution are Unclear.
The current impeachment process under the federal constitution of 1788 is defined by Article I, § 3, Clause 6. It provides:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
The current impeachment process under the New York State Constitution is defined by the New York State Constitution (1894). Article VI, § 24 states:
Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, or removal from office and disqualification to hold and enjoy any public office of honor, trust, or profit under this state; but the party impeached shall be liable to indictment and punishment according to law.
Section 24's language can be traced back, nearly word-for-word, to Section 33 of New York Constitution of 1777:
[N]o judgment of the said court shall be valid unless it be assented to by two third parts of the members then present; nor shall it extend farther than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold or enjoy any place of honor, trust, or profit under this State. But the party so convicted shall be, nevertheless, liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment, and punishment, according to the laws of the land. (emphasis added)
The only significant difference between the 1777 provision and its 1894 successor is that "place" was changed to "office." This change was first made in 1821. See New York Constitution of 1821, art. V, § 2. The New York Constitution of 1821 was New York's second post-independence constitution, and the first one to follow ratification of the federal Constitution in 1788. In 1821, New York revised its impeachment provision. Specifically, in 1821, the phrase "place of honor, trust, or profit under this State" was changed to "public office of honor, trust, or profit under this state." We think the decision to replace "place" with "office" in the 1821 constitution was deliberate. In 1821, the public would have understood this change to suggest that the scope of disqualification under the state system mirrored the scope of disqualification under the then extent federal system.
The disqualification language in Section 33 of the New York Constitution of 1777 bears a striking resemblance to its 1788 analogue in the federal constitution. Indeed, in Federalist No. 66, Hamilton drew comparisons between the impeachment process under the New York Constitution and the process under the proposed federal constitution. Likewise, the Office of Legal Counsel observed, the language used in the New York 1777 constitution was "strikingly similar" to the language used in the federal constitution. OLC wrote that the state provision "may well have been the source of the wording for the federal clause." Whether a Former President may be Indicted and Tried for the same Offenses for which he was Impeached by the House and Acquitted by the Senate, 24 U.S. Op. Off. Legal Counsel 110, 2000 WL 33711290, at *4 (2000) (Moss, Ass't Att'y Gen.).
The scope of this "office … under the United States"-language and "office … under this state"-language has not been settled. We have discovered no instances in which a New York officeholder was convicted and disqualified in impeachment proceedings, and subsequently sought to hold state positions in New York. Likewise, none of the three officeholders who were convicted and disqualified by the Senate under the federal system subsequently sought to hold other federal positions. In New York, one governor was impeached. He later held an elected state position, but he had not been disqualified. The scope of this language has not been settled by precedents arising from practice. Likewise, the scope of this language has not been settled by definitive federal or state court decisions. Thus, the scope of this language remains subject to legitimate debate.
We have long argued that, as a matter of original public meaning, the phrase "office . . . under the United States" in the Impeachment Disqualification Clause extends to appointed federal officers in all three branches of the government, but not to any elected federal officials. Thus if a covered federal officeholder is impeached, tried, convicted, removed, and disqualified, he would not be precluded from running for and holding elected federal positions, such as Representative, Senator, and President.
We think the scope of the phrase "office under . . . this state" in the New York Constitution of 1821 mirrored the scope of the phrase "office under . . . the United States" in the federal Constitution of 1788. We think the original meaning of both phrases extended to appointed officers, but not to any elected officials. We have no reason to believe that the 1821 New York Constitution deviated from its federal analogue. And the language of the 1821 New York Constitution has remained substantially unchanged to this day.
Therefore, we conclude that Article VI, Section 24 serves as a bar against a disqualified former state officeholder holding appointed state positions. Indeed, we are reasonably confident that this interpretation is the better reading of Section 24. Thus, if Governor Cuomo is impeached, tried, convicted, removed, and disqualified, he would not be precluded from running for and holding state elected positions, such as member of the state Assembly, member of the state Senate, Lieutenant Governor of New York, and Governor of New York.
That said, the case for limiting the scope of Article VI, § 24 of the New York Constitution to appointed positions is somewhat weaker than limiting the scope of Article I, § 3, Clause 6 of the federal Constitution to appointed positions. The text of the United State Constitution consistently uses different language for members of Congress and appointed officers. For example, the U.S. Constitution's Oaths and Affirmations Clause provides:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution ….
U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3. The Oaths and Affirmations Clause, above, illustrates an important drafting principle: the federal constitution uses the language of "member" for elected positions in Congress. By contrast, "officer" is used in connection with positions in the other two branches.
Article XIII, Section 1 of the New York Constitution provides:
Members of the legislature, and all officers, executive and judicial, except such inferior officers as shall be by law exempted, shall, before they enter on the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the United States, and the constitution of the State of New York, and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of ……, according to the best of my ability …." (emphasis added)
Article XIII of the New York Constitution illustrates a different drafting principle: the word "office" embraces both "members" of the legislature, and "officers" in the other two branches. Thus under New York law it is possible that there is no "hard" distinction, in the disqualification context, between elected officials and appointed officers. However, for the reasons we have extensively elaborated in the past—in journal articles, briefs, blog posts, etc.—we do not think this position is the better view. Instead, we believe, if Governor Cuomo is disqualified, he is free to run again for and to hold elected state positions.
[Seth Barrett Tillman is a Lecturer in the Maynooth University Department of Law, Ireland (Roinn Dlí Ollscoil Mhá Nuad).]
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I love how cracking crude jokes at women is hogging all the attention and is far more important and offensive than the tons of deaths he caused at nursing homes
The deaths he caused were worse of course but he actually groped several women too so its not just crude jokes.
Cuomo clearly saved lives with his leadership. Florida has significantly fewer nursing home patients and over 11k died in Florida…15k died in NY when they didn’t have the therapies Florida had because NY was in the first wave.
Nathan Poe, is that you??!??
DeathSantis killed 11k grannies…but that is an acceptable number of grannies to kill. 😉
True, but it still seems odd that he was forced out of office for smacking fannies instead of killing grannies.
But DeathSantis killed 11k grannies and he hasn’t been forced out of office?!? Is your threshold 11,001 grannies??
You attribute all nursing home deaths in the state to the governor, which seems a bit of a stretch. The argument against Gov. Cuomo is more specific: He caused nursing home deaths by ordering contagious Covid patients to be transferred from hospitals to nursing homes, and then had his administration cover up the truth from federal investigators and others.
Wrong, the patients had to be stable and recovering which means they were unlikely to be contagious. All one has to do is look at the day to day numbers to see that order was inconsequential AND in fact everything Cuomo did worked. If you are really interested in this issue just look at the day to day tally with 7 day average…but I doubt you are really interested in this issue. Btw, my elderly parents have long term care at home insurance so they won’t have to go to a nursing home.
Wrong, the patients had to be stable and recovering which means they were unlikely to be contagious.
And on that you have the word of the same entity that lied about the number of patients that were involved in the transfers.
Playing devil's advocate ... groping was a personal individual choice completely unrelated to being governor. Sending all those sick old folks to rest homes was a political decision made "in the heat of the moment" and regardless of what some people knew at the time, other people at that same time, and even now, "knew" otherwise, and it is only hindsight which shows which side was correct.
At least that's the way to think about it if you want to make excuses for him. One malfeasance was excusable, one was not.
How many of the women he purportedly harassed would have had jobs were they male?
The state trooper, yes -- but the woman whose "job" was to be his "escort" at an event?!? She was hired for her tits and her arse and people need to remember that better qualified males *weren't* hired for this job.
And this goes back to Harvey Weinstein -- none of us have ever heard of the actresses who *didn't* prostitute themselves to him because they were run out of the business. I have a really hard time feeling sorry for those who prostituted themselves to get ahead because they gained from that, they profited and enjoyed their careers -- and now they are saying "oh, poor, pitiful me..."
And I don't feel sorry for them -- instead, I feel sorry for the decent young ladies who wound up having to go into other professions....
Of course, there are always officers like Leigh Genduso -- https://www.wcvb.com/article/massachusetts-state-trooper-leigha-genduso-discharged/22828101#
The flip side of all of this is that the only reason why a known former drug dealer got to be a state trooper was her T & A and whom she was sharing both with.
"She was hired for her tits and her arse and people need to remember that better qualified males *weren’t* hired for this job."
Exactly HOW can a male be "better-qualified" for a job that requires tits?
Whatever Cuomo did in March and April to clean up Trump’s mess worked because everything was under control in NY by May…I’m sorry you were duped by #fakenews but something tells me it wasn’t the first time and it won’t be the last. 😉
Sarcasm? If so, it's not very good.
If not sarcastic, wow. Just, wow. Rather colossal idiocy to believe that:
1. public health is automatically a federal rather than a traditionally state issue; or
2. that "everything was under control in NY by May".
So Giuliani is responsible for 9/11?? New Orleans is responsible for tracking hurricanes?? Federal government has the responsibility to protect Americans from existential threats and we know the federal government had information about Covid and the president and senators didn’t sound the alarm bells other than Warner who clearly didn’t do enough.
NY had awful March and April due to the federal government’s failures…and at some point it becomes the state and cities responsibility to clean up the mess of the federal government’s failures which is exactly what Cuomo did.
because everything was under control in NY by May
Yeah, I thought the scene with Kevin Bacon's character screaming "All is well!!!" while being stampeded by a panicked mob of parade watchers was one of the more memorable scenes from Animal House too.
"I thought the scene with Kevin Bacon’s character screaming “All is well!!!” while being stampeded by a panicked mob of parade watchers was one of the more memorable scenes from Animal House too."
I don't remember that scene at all. But I believe that you do.
"Sending all those sick old folks to rest homes was a political decision made “in the heat of the moment” "
You must have a very unusual understanding of, 'in the heat of the moment'; That 'moment' lasted weeks.
And whatever Cuomo did in March and April to clean up Trump’s mess worked…because in May the situation was under control in NY.
Always Trump. Everything is Trump's fault.
A. It was governors and mayors who locked down their jurisdictions, trashed economies, threw old people to the wolves, and delayed routine medical care so much as to increase the death rate from preventable causes.
B. If you're going to reactively blame everything bad during his Presidency on him, then you have to give him all the credit during those four years too, such as the expedited FDA vaccine approval.
Your TDS is typical of every Democrat and all the never-Trumpers. It's pretty obvious that the only reason for the incredible over-reaction to COVID is because it was something the federal government had very little authority over; it was something the anti-Trump mayors and governors could finally strut their stuff, be visible doing something, anything, following the science, and insulting Trump at every opportunity. Nothing else explains the over the top reactions which had never been necessary before. The teacher unions getting priority on vaccinations and still refusing to go back to school; the Burn Loot Murder riots being approved, applauded, and abetted while flouting all the regulations which churches had to obey.
Go sulk in a corner somewhere. Your whining here about Trump is pathetic. None of you clowns can see that government, period, is at fault; you are so damned partisan it is the ruler you whine about, not the apparatus they build up.
The lockdowns were very unpopular…but what Cuomo did in March and April wasn’t an overreaction and it was successful. Now once he had everything under control in May and the medical community had a better handle on therapeutics…from May on to the present we can discuss what worked and what didn’t work…but Cuomo’s actions in March and April saved lives and the nursing home deaths in NY are right at 33% of total deaths which is exactly in line with Florida and nationwide.
We also know the federal government knew how bad this was going to be because Senator Burr told his donors in late February how bad it would be and Legs Spread Loeffler made a lot of money thanks to being on the Intelligence Committee and so she knew more than the average American. Senator Warner, also on the IC, obviously didn’t do enough but he at least publicly stated that it was going to be bad and we weren’t doing enough to prepare. And we know Trump played the threat down because he told that to Woodward. Trump failed, Cuomo saved lives…but the lockdowns were unpopular.
Republicans won’t believe this but because NY got hit first the nursing home numbers did look bad…but that’s just because they got hit first and the number stood out and so in June of 2020 there are a lot of comparisons that by today simply look silly as Covid made its way through America.
SC,
Say what you want, but NY, NJ, MA, and RI led the nation with the number of deaths per million.
You can blame trump based on your politics, but claiming that Cuomo saved lives is crazy even if he did have DeBlasio's criminal behavior to undo.
Those states were in the initial wave—anyone who points to those states overall numbers as evidence of anything other than being in the initial wave is being intellectually dishonest. Btw, Mardi Gras happened at the exact wrong time AND Mardi Gras essentially mimics the density of the NEC and so Louisiana also has bad numbers. Check out the day by day numbers and NY’s response is clearly impressive because by May everything is under control. Furthermore—the medical community learned a lot about how to treat Covid from the initial wave which is why lockdowns at the beginning make sense even if they are unpopular.
The numbers are what they are. You are praising Mr Cuomo for exactly that: what he did in the initial wave. His actions were hardly extraordinary or insightful. He did the what he thought he could in the face of the NYC catastrophe. Mr Newson did far better in controlling the initial wave. The situation in LA could easily have paralleled that in NYC, but it did not.
You say "by May everything is under control." Yes, by May NY had burned out its most vulnerable population, no credit there to any politician. What the medical community learned is also of no credit to Mr Cuomo, Mr Newsom or any other governor (and certainly not to the Orange Clown).
If you want to identify intellectual dishonesty, start with looking in a mirror
You are clueless—Cuomo had everything under control by May…that is phenomenal. And CA was not in the initial wave. I’m sorry, but you have fallen for #fakenews and that is exactly why people don’t believe lockdowns and social distancing and masks don’t work because they point to the NEC’s overall numbers when if you look at NY in May it’s clear everything Cuomo did was successful.
SC,
I am far from clueless about COVID-19 I have tracked this pandemic globally on a daily basis from early in March.
I will remind you that CA was put under lockdown by mid-March avoiding the NY catastrophe, which you call the first wave. NY and NJ suffered that wave precisely because of poor pandemic management. So learn a bit about this pandemic before spouting off.
By March the contrasting experiences in Germany and Italy were already quite clear. Yet no US governor followed the German example ofsetting up a large network of triage stations. In what you would like to call the first wave, the CFR in Germany was about 1.5% contrasting with >12% in Italy and ~3.5% in the US with the bulk of the deaths being in NY.
SC,
" fallen for #fakenews" Bullshit!
You know nothing about me; I am a peer-reviewed, published author about COVID epidemiology. I don't read or listen to whatever crap you call #fakenews. If you know so much about it, you must.
Sure, Cuomo did better than many, but he took far to long to slap down DeBlasio and his performance was not so markedly better than several other governors.
Covid came from Europe and we know exactly when it hit because we know when Mardi Gras happened. I’m not sure why you believe Louisiana just happened to be in the first wave when it wasn’t in the NEC but if you have another explanation then go for it. So the super spreader events that didn’t spread were the Super Bowl in Miami (Feb 2) because it wasn’t in America yet and then also in Florida Spring Break (mid March) didn’t spread it because it’s not an international event. So the spread happened in late February so anything Newsome did that you believe was successful is due to the fact CA wasn’t in the initial wave!! The key is Mardi Gras which happened Feb 25th in 2020 and knowing that was a super spreader event.
SC,
Just to be clear about your revisionist history. Not all SARS-C0V-2 infections came from Europe. The Washington infections did not. You keep on about Mardi Gras, when NYC has many visitors from Europe. By its very nature Manhattan is a super-spreader event. That is why 2 weeks of DeBlasio was quasi-criminal
Understanding the Mardi Gras super spreader event is important in understanding the timeline—we needed to lockdown in mid February and we know the federal government had the intelligence thanks to Burr’s private remarks leaking. So everything Cuomo did was great…except it was too late and we know because Mardi Gras produces conditions in NO that mimics the NEC two weeks every year. So for California what Newsome did was successful because they weren’t part of the first wave which got to America in mid to late February.
Ken (!) ye not read?
How much more explicit do I have to make it? Do you want a telegram next time?
By that standard DeathSantis is responsible for the over 11,000 nursing home patient deaths in Florida. The reality is Cuomo did a great job after Trump failed to protect Americans from a pandemic…but you are free to believe #fakenews and apply different standards to your tribe.
" after Trump failed to protect Americans from a pandemic…"
You really have a great imagination if you think that Old White Joe and his ilk could have done any better.
Twenty countries had more deaths per million although among large countries the US had more cases per million. The present administration has not stopped the Delta spike. Even in Deep blue Alameda county CA, we have been having ~400 cases per day for a month, up from 40 per day.
Blaming POTUS is political BS. It is the governors and mayors who own the police power. DeBlasio's criminal behavior was not Trump's fault. Gavin Newsom talked a good game (Trump should have emulated him, but was too stupid to do so). But CA's record in this pandemic is nothing to be so proud of.
The Orange Clown was a catastrophe for America, but blaming the pandemic on him is childish partisanship.
Trump was calling Covid a “hoax” and having rallies at the beginning of March. So we know from Senator Burr’s leaked comments that Trump had been informed how bad Covid really was…and yet Trump was downplaying the threat it posed. That said I am not blaming Trump for anything other than being incompetent…and I believe a competent President Hillary could have overseen more deaths because anything she advocated Republicans would have done the opposite. With respect to the lockdowns the fact a Republican pretty much started them, DeWine, meant Republicans were initially more receptive of public health mitigation measures.
As I said, Trump blew the golden opportunity of a life time by not following Newsom's script, but save that saying that US statistics would have been much beetter is you playing fanatasy pandemic.
If you mean Chris Christie’s Sandy script then I 100% agree with you. Trump should have done exactly what Christie did, but Trump believed on February 2020 he was cruising to re-election when in fact he wasn’t whereas before Sandy Christie believed he was going to lose.
Well, we agree that the Orange Clown made a fool of himself, but he did not have the intelligence to stay out of the spotlight and leave Fauci there to take the slings and arrows, all the while being highly supportive of our fine medical profession.
Just note that the average death rate in NY was 2.4% considerably higher than the US average; MA's is 2.5% while FL's is 1.4% considerably below the US average.
Yapping politics using the pandemic numbers makes no sense. The thing to argue about is what should be done at this juncture.
I'm just glad that I don't have to make those hard decisions.
No, offense, but referencing the overall death rate means you are clueless. The states in the initial wave have the worst numbers because they were in the initial wave…they also happen to be relatively cold and dense but Vermont (unimportant peripheral state) has good numbers and Hawaii (island with great weather) has good numbers and PR (island with warm weather) has good numbers but the Dakotas (cold peripheral) and Mississippi (warm high minority population) have terrible numbers. Florida does not have good numbers but a mitigating factor is NEC people fleeing there and taking Covid. I don’t care about politics with respect to Covid other than exposing hypocrisy of Trump supporters.
Again you show your cluelessness SC. You want to discard any statistic that casts a shadow on your narrative. You keep taking refuge in the "first wave" mantra when the first wave was precisely because of mismanagement of the pandemic.
You want to praise Cuomo over Newsom because Newsom managed to avoid the explosive burnout scenario that the NY metro region suffered.
You have a lot of excuses for many states, yet you really have not addressed the tardiness of providing proper triage facilities or proper quarantine centers as the Chinese did in December.
You seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you is a support of the orange clown. Think again, buddy. I have had many arguments with Trumpistas about COVID, my guess is more than you have. Of course, you may rejoin that I have been wasting my time with that and I will tend to agree.
You say that you don't care about politics of the pandemic, yet you spout an awfully partisan line.
See above—Mardi Gras was Feb. 25.
There you go again.
COVID-19 in America was not due to Mardi Gras. Did it contribute? Yes.
But you show no clue about how this infection spreads as a function of conditions on the ground. NYC was a fire keg easily ignited by a small number of infected visitors
It’s important in understanding the timeline—if a state was in the first wave starting lockdowns needed to happen in mid to late February—nobody was advocating lockdowns that early.
SC,
The NY Covid explosion started on March 12 -15. That was when the first wave hit Canada. It was a month after the waves of covid hit Germany and Italy. Germany had already hit its peak.
Where were all the smart cosmopolitans in NY? Why couldn't they see that a lockdown was necessary?
Mr Cuomo let De Blasio's debacle run for 2 weeks before intervening. No excuses. And that was a month after your Mardi Gras.
And don't give me the whining that NYC is colder in March than is Montreal or Quebec.
"The thing to argue about is what should be done at this juncture."
"We need to keep schoolchildren from wearing masks!" is a proposal, but not a good one.
"Trump was calling Covid a “hoax” "
This is the sort of gross dishonesty we've seen concerning Trump all along. Trump certainly did call something a "hoax", but it wasn't Covid.
AP FACT CHECK: Biden distorts Trump’s words on virus ‘hoax’
Omg, somebody call Bellmore a Whaaaaaambulance because someone wasn’t fair to Trump!!! Maybe if Trump didn’t have rambling and nonsensical speeches as late as March 2, 2020 then maybe he wouldn’t have been misquoted. Pathetic.
No, as always, apologists for Trump take the "Let's pretend he meant something different than he said, justified by using something he said on a different day" approach. He did call it a hoax. Sure, he didn't mean by that word that the virus itself didn’t exist, but nobody claimed he did. What he meant was that the idea of it being a serious issue was a hoax.
He also thought he was making a contribution by suggesting the people could disinfect their bodies with bleach.
You think the AP are apologists for Trump???
He didn't call Covid a hoax. Like it, hate it, that's an objective fact.
"You think the AP are apologists for Trump???"
I would, if they said what you say.
I know those two live in your mind rent free 24/7 but I was comparing the media's obsession with fanny smacking to their complete disinterest in causing actual deaths of lots of people. Bringing up Trump and Desantis is derailing the issue.
Correct, you aren’t interested in the 11k grannies DeathSantis slaughtered.
I could say the same thing about you. Why do you show no concern for all the deaths caused by Cuomo and Dem governors both in this and in the BLM fallout? Its beyond dispute that they purposefully sent covid patients and he covered it up. Do you deny it? Im the one who started this topic and you are intentionally coming in and sh&*I*g it up. That shows a lot more purposeful and grotesque disrespect for the victims than anything you can accuse me or the other people in this thread of.
NY doesn’t have an anomalous number of nursing home patient deaths…we know that the spread happened in late February because Mardi Gras in New Orleans was a super spreader event. We also know that DeathSantis couldn’t mitigate nursing home deaths even with all of the knowledge gained by not being in the first wave of the pandemic. Bottom line—whatever Cuomo did in March and April worked.
You're lying and hoping people don't check up on it. There is no good data comparing nursing home death rates due to vast differences in how states count them. But if you have to compare best data shows that New york is above average. If you want to bat around statistics. The clearest most indisputable statistics also show that NY is much higher in death rate and you have no answer other than mealy mouth speculation. At the most generous there is no evidence favoring you in the hard numbers game.
Even the NYT bastion of conservatism admits that Cuomo lied, undercounted, and covered up the extent of the scandal. Why would he do all this if he was doing such a bang up job as you claim? You're absolutely delusional and you're making it even worse by humiliating yourself in an attempt to derail the thread.
We know exactly how many nursing home patients died in NY…it’s not an anomalous number in context. But DeathSantis slaughtered 11k grannies and for some reason you don’t care?!? Did a granny hurt you?? Is that why you support DeathSantis slaughtering grannies??
SC,
Your very language, "slaughtered 11k grannies,' shows that you have no interest in facts. You're only focused on political polemics.
It is a pointless waste of time to continue any discussion with you.
I am having 2 conversations—one with people that believe Cuomo is responsible for killing 15k grannnies but DrSantis did a good job with only 11k grannies dying in Florida…Florida has a significantly smaller nursing home population btw.
And then I am having a conversation with you about the Covid timeline in February and early March of 2020. Thanks to the Super Bowl and Mardi Gras and Spring Break with hindsight we can make a pretty good guess about when Covid came to America…and that means the lockdowns had to start when nobody was advocating them which means Mardi Gras should have been cancelled and NYC and Boston and Providence and Philly should have lockdown in late February because that is when Covid came to America from Europe.
SC,
My faulting Mr. Cuomo is that he did not stomp on DeBlasio immediately.
The NY wave was pretty accurately modeled as a classic detonation wave that burned through its fuel supply. To Cuomo's credit he did act decisively, albeit late. To the fault of all our governors they did not learn from the German and Chinese lessons about effective triage and quarantine
As for DeSantis, he is worse because he has had more than an extra year to get the picture and he still hasn't
Look I'm no fan of Cuomo but "He threatened me over the phone" really dude? You literally documented that exchange. I dont think you know what a threat is.
I don't think he knows what violating someone's religious liberty is either.
The new content might be a little thin here for a few days. The Conspirators must be watching -- and in some cases participating in -- that three-day cybersymposium being conducted by pillow peddler Mike Lindell.
How many of the Conspirators traveled to South Dakota -- for three days, undisputed center of the clingerverse -- to hear the glorious news of former Pres. (and future convict and bankrupt) Donald Trump's reinstatement first-hand?
My over-under is 2.5.
Democratic voters don't seem to hold corruption against officials of their own party. Brenda Snipes (Broward County voting official) was re-elected multiple times after convictions of misconduct. And former Illinois gov. Rod Blagojevich (pardoned by Trump after several years in prison for selling Obama's former US Senate seat) is trying right now to get his disqualification reversed by legislators.
So it's not at all far fetched that Cuomo might be elected governor again. NYC residents don't seem to give a hoot either.
Yes, it is definitely the obvious conclusion from this whole saga that Democrats are at least as indifferent about misconduct by elected officials as Republicans are. [/sarc]
jdgalt1 : "Democratic voters don’t seem to hold corruption against officials of their own party"
Given MAGA voters find corruption a sexy turn-on, I think Dems still hold an edge, civic virtue-wise.
Any discussion of virtue in this context should mention Republicans’ aggressive bigotry — the racism, the misogyny, the gay-bashing, the xenophobia, the White nationalism — even at an archaically White, remarkably male, right-wing blog.
Calling a bigot a bigot is the sole moral course.
jdgalt1 is wrong. On January 8, 2009, the Illinois House voted 114–1 (with three abstentions) to impeach Blagojevich. The charges brought by the House emphasized Blagojevich's alleged abuses of power and his alleged attempts to sell legislative authorizations and/or vetoes, and gubernatorial appointments including that of Obama's vacated Senate seat. He was removed from office and prohibited from ever holding public office in the state of Illinois again, by two separate and unanimous votes of 59–0 by the Illinois Senate on January 29, 2009. So, Democrats in both houses of the Illinois legislature did deliver the maximum punishment to Blagojevich, removing him from office and barring him from holding further office.
As someone who lived his entire life in Illinois I can assure you the impeachment was less about his abuse of power, and more about letting himself get caught. Pay to play was, and still is, a time-honored tradition in IL
As someone who has not lived in IL for over 50 years, this is not a surprising revelation.
How are Gaetz and Cawthorn doing, jdgalt? What about Kavanaugh?
"Democratic voters don’t seem to hold corruption against officials of their own party."
This is one of the VERY few positives of a partisan election system. His own party may not think he is disqualified, but the other party certainly does. I wonder if they'll just forgive and forget...
After all, Senator Bob Packwood of Oregon fully recovered his political power after similar complaints about his behavor forced him to resign from the Senate. All he had to do was blame the "box wine" for his misbehavior, and he was welcomed back to wide applause. No, not really. The Oregon Republican Party began a long slide into insignifigance that arguably peaked when they nominated first Bill Sizemore and then former basketball player Chris Dudley for governor in successive election cycles.
Your difficulty in (4) might come from the phrase "public office." Offices in the UK were created by and held of the sovereign, either mediately or immediately, or by creation of statute. Public or civil office was used to describe those functions relating to civil government, of which elected office is the clear American analogue.
State constitutions are of course read differently than the federal consitutions, as the former are organizations of inherent power, while the latter is the specific creation of specific mechanisms of power; the "officer" jurisprudence from Article II appointment/impeachment isn't necessarily a precise match. In the common law, the standard was tenure, duration, emolument (if it's safe to use that word again), and permanent duties, and that standard, combined with the civil office distinction, would seem to suggest that the bar is more clearly against elected office than against appointed office. (Though I don't see him making a push to head the MTA anytime soon.)
Mr. D.
It was the plan for President Trump....
If Cuomo resigned, can he even be impeached in the first place?
Yes, but he probably won't be despite many New York Democrats supporting Trump's impeachment after he left office for the purpose of stopping him from ever running again and being elected.
Trump’s impeachment after he left office for the purpose of stopping him from ever running again and being elected."
Trump has never won a popular election.
Wouldn't it be easier to just charge Coumo with a couple felonies, let him plead out to one of them and suspend the sentence? Does NY bar ex-felons from holding public office?
Assuming Lt. Gov. Hochul (after she becomes governor) doesn't pull a Gerald Ford and pardon him ahead of any possible charges
"Assuming Lt. Gov. Hochul (after she becomes governor) doesn’t pull a Gerald Ford and pardon him ahead of any possible charges"
Remember how well that turned out for Ford? I wonder if the Lt. Gov. does...
Ford voted for civil rights legislation while Carter had a much more ambiguous civil rights record…so the South went for Nixon upwards 75% and then Ford didn’t appeal to the South while Carter was a son of the South. Bottom line—Ford’s pardon of Nixon isn’t what turned off southerners…it was his support for civil rights legislation. 1976 was a fluke like 2016…they happen every now and then.
Nixon being Nixon was what turned off Americans to the GOP in 76. Ford wasn't Nixon, but the pardon tied them together in public memory.
Watergate doesn’t bother me…does your conscience bother you? Sweet Home Alabama 1974
Nixon was so popular that Kennedy beat him in 62. He came back in 68 because the D's had decided to become unelectable, and they succeeded in that goal.
Maybe don't take your cues from the musicians. They also whined about Neil Young criticizing the "Southern Man". (Boo hoo)
Nixon was unpopular among the GOPe, but he governed as a law and order liberal and was popular. So the GOPe forced Ford on Nixon and then stabbed Nixon in the back. Rove took a lot of lessons from Nixon—just say you are a conservative and espouse traditional values and then give everyone everything they want.
Nixon was unpopular among the everybody, or he would have been Prez in 1961
The KKK collapsed in the 1920s after the head of the Indiana Klan went to prison and he proceeded to dump the dirt on everyone else.
I suspect that Coumo has been around to have a lot of dirt on others -- including Biden, who actually has done worse to women.
Wrong, Cuomo only cares about his daughters’ political opportunities—they are also Kennedys btw.
I don't think there are credible allegations of Biden feeling women's breasts over or under their clothes.
Is Tara Reade's accusation credible?
Let's also remember that Kamala Harris thinks the allegations against Joe Biden are credible: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-joe-biden-accusers-i-believe-them_n_5ca4fb96e4b094d3f5c5750f
So you suddenly think Ms. Harris is right about everything?
"I suspect that Coumo has been around to have a lot of dirt on others — including Biden, who actually has done worse to women."
So did Trump, and you were fine with it then...
This is what happens when the diverse take a hold of power. Cuomo is the Emmet Till of feminist skanks. He was lynched by the dirty feminist mob for nothing.
I agree with the comments above. He locked down the normal. For 700 years, the practice of quarantine has been to lock down the infected. He then let asymptomatic young essential workers travel to work to provide intimate care to nursing home residents and wiped them out. You get COVID from breathing the air of others. So, forcing people to stay home is a sure way to spread like a wildfire, instead of going outside and breathing uninfected air.
He defrauded the federal government paying $35000 a COVID death certificate. He had a policy of presumptive COVID to cash in, never mind "with COVID" vs. "from COVID." A guy is shot in the head, coughs. Presumptive COVID, and $35000 cash. No test necessary, Cuomo said in a published rule.
His knocking out the economy killed 1000's of NYers by additional Deaths of Despair. Around the world, he killed millions by starvation from the drop in the world GDP from his lock down.
All this, and he is hailed by the tech billionaire media. These oligarchs scores $1.7 trillion in wealth from the lockdown.
He touches the butt of a feminist hooer, now he's got to go.
You stinking lawyers stink.
Literally every governor let infected people treat nursing home patients, So use your brain—how do you social distance with nursing home patients?? Until we had accurate rapid testing we couldn’t effectively social distance in nursing homes. All one has to do is look at the nursing home numbers nationwide and you would see Cuomo did nothing that exacerbated deaths among nursing home patients.
SC,
The Chinese practice in Wuhan gives lie to your claim.
The very rapid screening of temperature then CAT scan then COVID test followed by immediate quarantine away from others prevents a far greater toll in Wuhan. Even without the PCR, quarantine away from the nursing home would have saved lives. Leaving sick people in place among a vulnerable population was at best stupid.
So why didn’t any state successfully mitigate nursing home deaths?? NY has more nursing home patients than Florida and yet 33% of the deaths in both states were nursing home patients—15k in NY and 11k in Florida. Btw, after Hawaii Florida has the best weather to mitigate spread…and that is irrelevant to nursing home patients because they are indoors. Hawaii has the best numbers but not only do they have the best weather they also don’t have highways into their states so shutting down is easier. Puerto Rico has good numbers which might be a first.
"So why didn’t any state successfully mitigate nursing home deaths??"
Good question. Let's start with stupidity, then add arrogance and the unwillingness to institute effective quarantine of those suspected of being ill.
I admit the US not agreeing to use the WHO PCR kit was a massive f*ck up that certain hurt. But the example of Wuhan was clear.
Yes, the Chinese also used procedures that would not be acceptable in a western democracy when then locked down Wuhan and Hubei with medical martial law. But the field facilities for effective quarantine were the key. That could have been implemented in the US.
“So why didn’t any state successfully mitigate nursing home deaths??”
They are all run by politicians. Every one of them a member of a political party. Every single one.
"best weather to mitigate spread…"
From the global statistics I have studied (encompassing 5.5 billion people). The weather excuse is weak at best. Did you happen to notice that the Delta spike is happening in July and originated in India?
Look at global statistics. NY's spike was unlike others that you cite. It was an explosion driven by gross negligence of the mayor of NYC
Nope, weather is related to social distancing because more time can be spent outdoors. So in Florida from November through April outdoor dining and drinking is very comfortable and then it isn’t in the summer but people still do it. If the weather is nice but people are indoors and not social distancing then weather is no longer a mitigating factor.
More, blah from you.
If it's cool outside where a jacket or a coat.
"From the global statistics I have studied (encompassing 5.5 billion people). The weather excuse is weak at best."
Depends on where you are standing. In some places, it is too cold to stay outside in winter. In some places, it is too hot to stay outside in summer. If the weather keeps you inside, are you inside in a crowded setting, or inside in an isolated one? Then, besides temperature, there's precipitation. If it's clear and dry, you might stay outside, if you can find some shade. But it is bucketing rain with sky flashing and booming, you probably are rushing for a place to be inside. Then there's the west, where you don't want to be outside because outside is on fire.
If your data says weather is inconsequential, I'd look for confounding factors.
Excuse me, Sebastian. Think about who is in a nursing home, the moribund. They need hospital care and can no longer be treated at home. There are 1.5 million. Each year, 26% die, compared to 1% of the population's dying. That makes 390000 deaths falsely attributed to COVID. That number should be deducted from the COVID deaths. Even if not fake, the death would be with COVID, not from COVID. Most cases were fake to defraud the federal government. When you pay for something, you get more of it.
There were 100000 excess deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. The majority of them were from undiagnosed and untreated cancer and heart disease. Those people were killed by the lockdown of outpatient care not by COVID. That leaves around 50000 deaths likely from an infection. As a convenience the usual 60000 deaths from the flu disappeared. That leaves nothing from COVID.
Biggest fraud heist in history, $1.7 trillion to our oligarchs, and the election of their boy, Biden, instead of Trump, not their boy.
I hate how they outsmarted everyone. Their assets should be seized in civil forfeiture for the billions of crimes on their platforms, and their own millions of cases of defrauding advertisers with inflated viewerships.
"When you pay for something, you get more of it."
If this is true, I wish whoever is paying you to say stupid shit would knock it off.
In February, 2020, the Village of Vo Euganeo, in the middle of the of the region with the COVID storm in Italy, ended its epidemic. It tested all residents. It found half the infected were asymptomatic. All infected people stayed home 2 weeks, as is the 700 year old tradition of quarantine. End of epidemic.
The economic damage of locking down the normal, a $4trillion drop in world GDP, caused the biggest and fastest mass murder of millions by starvation. That crime hauled the biggest fraud heist in history, $1.7 trillion to our oligarchs, $2 trillion to the Chinese ones.
Cuomo was not convicted of any crime, and is also no longer in office, thus he can not be impeached for both of those reasons. Any impeachment is nothing more then political harassment.
That is what the cancel culture is all about.
I support cancel. All woke is to be cancelled, including entire universities. All woke people to re-education camps, for lectures on patriotism by lesbians with crew cuts.
Why the crew-cut requirement? Are you having trouble growing your hair out?
His resignation is effective in two weeks. If the legislature impeaches him before then, the resignation should not be permitted to nullify the impeachment's ability to disqualify him from office. (Whether he could be impeached for that purpose after leaving office is a separate question.)
One would hope NYers wouldn't be dumb enough to elect him to anything else, or any other citizens for any other position he'd run for.
There are always better people to elect. It's high time that voters remember that.
NYers like scoundrels.
He might have to "retire" to Florida.
If he resigned, then he's not governor now. Charge him with a crime, and convict him, and he'll be too busy being in state prison to run for office. Plus, of course, being in prison tends to look bad to voters. Ask Blago... he was desperate enough to schmooze Trump, which probably didn't endear him to his primary voters.
Did watch any of his press conferences during Covid?? I watched one and his personality is extremely off putting and his voice is grating…but guess who he brought to the press conferences? His daughters that lo and behold are also Kennedys via RFK. So they obviously have political aspirations and he must think about them.
So your working theory is that it benefits his daughters somehow for him to be in prison?
Never mind, I'm trying to figure out the hypothetical biology in which Mr. Cuomo and Mr. Kennedy have daughters together.
RFK had a daughter and his daughter married Cuomo…that makes his daughters Kennedys and every Democrat in NY knows that. At some point the political dynasties inevitably peter out and a Kennedy lost a senate primary in Massachusetts in 2020 and hopefully a Bush will lose an AG primary in Texas…but there are a lot more Kennedys than Bushes and Kennedys have actually done good things for America while Bush 43 was an unmitigated disaster for America. Btw, keep this quiet but Bush’s brother helped George W Bush successfully steal an election…shhhhh, don’t tell any Democrats about that recent American history.
Meanwhile, Schwarzeneggar has kids who are birthright American citizens.
If Cuomo runs for office again and wins, the people who elected him deserve him.