Today in Supreme Court History: June 1, 1925

6/1/1925: Pierce v. Society of Sisters is decided.

Comments

[DaivdBehar]

The decision was correct. They were able to read the plain English of the constitution. But, the idea that the policy decision to have private education should be made by the Ciurt is not correct. It should be made by the Congress. Congress should decide based on the constitution and on the experienced benefits, after investigation. Then, face the voters after the decision.

[Dan Schiavetta]

As a result, we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies.

[Sarcastr0]

The thing is, they don't do much better than we do in terms of elections.

I don't agree with a lot of Prof. Somin's rational ignorance hypothesis, but I cannot argue with the aspect that education and good representatives/policy outcomes don't seem closely correlated.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Today's conservatism is, for the most part, based on ignorance. Other democracies tend not be as conservative as us. Education is surely a huge factor.

[apedad]

To be fair, a lot of leftists aren't very smart either.

There's a lot of ignorance from the "tax the rich" and "defund the police" crowd.

They just shout slogans (as do their righty counterparts), without thinking about real action, side affects, negative consquences, etc.

[Sarcastr0]

This is not to say that education is not an inherent benefit in and of itself, of course.

[apedad]

Agree with Sarcastr0.

I lived in Europe for 2+ decades and although they may have higher education ratings (generally), that does not mean they make better political decisions.

Politics - here and everywhere - can be very parochial, i.e. local, narrow, selfish, biased.

[DaivdBehar]

Thank the education law bar. Get sued if you fail a kid, discipline a kid, even criticize a kid. Our 13 year olds do not know much math, but they have excellent self esteem, and know a great deal about anal sex from schools. The failure of education in the US is 100% the fault of the lawyer profession. Beyond the education law bar, there is the labor bar imposing the vicious demands of the teachers' union to do no work and to keep incompetents on the payroll.

India has more Honor Roll students than we have children. The average kid in Korea is as proficient as our Honor Roll student. High school graduation around the world qualifies a kid to enter the third year of college in the US.

My suggestion is to abolish high school. Make 14 the age of adulthood, in accordance with biology, the religions of the world, and 10000 years of civilization. Maturity comes from experience, not from age. Adolescents are not just superior in physical performance. They are superior in mental performance. Those years are now totally wasted in a babysitting service that duplicates college and vocational training. A lot happens at 14. Nothing special happens at 18. That is a meaningless age concocted by lawyers to keep top competitors from taking the jobs of their rent seeking clients.

[apedad]

". . . and know a great deal about anal sex from schools."

Um. . . how do you know that?!?

On second thought, nevermind. . . .

[DaivdBehar]

I asked a 13 year old kid what he did at school. He said, he learned about anal sex. That surprised his mother. I suggested she speak to the principal, request her son be exempted from that homosexual agenda propaganda.

[apedad]

It's rather revealing that you immediately think of homosexuality when anal sex is discussed.

[Krychek_2]

Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once. It showed several rabbits at a cocktail party and one of them was saying to the others, "It's like being gay; everyone thinks all we do is have sex."

[DaivdBehar]

Poop is a sex turn off to the normal het male, especially on one's own body part. You need the prep of a colonoscopy otherwise. Sedation may be required.

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/-/media/local-files/eau-claire/documents/medical-services/gastroenterology/preparation-instructions--for-your-colonoscopy.pdf?la=en&hash=468A881979524B35D0CC47FFEE440C29A6C10850

[Krychek_2]

And yet heterosexual couples have anal sex.

Sexually, the difference between gay couples and straight couples is that gay couples do one thing less: they do not have penis-vaginal intercourse. Other than that, there’s nothing gay couple do that straight couples don’t. Straight couples do oral, anal, fetishes, bondage, role play.

[Sarcastr0]

No no no!

Heterosexuals make anal *love*

[Krychek_2]

Right. Straight blow jobs are sacred; gay blow jobs are filthy and perverted.

[Dan Schiavetta]

https://www.inkedmag.com/.image/c_fit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_620/MTYyNzM2NjgwNDgxMDcyOTk0/517763568.jpg

[Aladdin's Carpet]

Have you lived in other democracies for any period of time? Stupidity is universal.

And blaming homeschooling ... I mean, our public education system sucks. And it is not for lack of money. I know plenty of homeschooled people who are exceptionally bright, and know many public school people who are exceptionally dumb. I went to a magnet school ... I would be well below where I am today had I not had that option.

Choices are good. You may dislike religious education ... but every person I know who opted for religious education is better for it. That certainly isn't universal. But to deny them the option ...

And lastly, do you, a liberal, really want to allow the legislature to determine the education of children? The legislature say passes a law banning the teaching of evolution. Are you intellectually honest enough to say that is perfectly fine? Because if the case went the other way it would be ...

[Aladdin's Carpet]

I was in Germany for a period of time and a fellow asked me if I was a Trump supporter. I thought about it for a bit and asked him, in response, if he was an AfD supporter. He immediately launched into a speech about how thats totally different and provided endless qualifications and I was just like, yeah, it is different. Its so much worse.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

"every person I know who opted for religious education is better for it."

Superstition and dogma -- at the expense of reason and science -- improve everything, in your estimation?

If you hope to see your side become competitive in modern America's marketplace of ideas, you seem destined to be disappointed.

[DaivdBehar]

I am saying the legislature is more qualified than the court to make national policy. I support maximum freedom and the marketplace of quality. Give parents the education budget of their child, and let schools compete for it.

One thing about learning is that it is painful. Pain has to be tolerated. Schools should not fear ruinous litigation for a criticism of a child.

This is from the 2000's. In Korea, a teacher clipped a 10 year old kid's eyebrow after throwing a book at her for giving a wrong answer. She needed stitches for the profuse bleeding. The mother complained to the principal about this over-reaction. The PTA surrounded her house, and threw rocks. They were yelling, "You must respect the teacher."

[Cal Cetín]

"As a result, we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies."

captcrisis is literally defending the position taken by the Ku Klux Klan in Oregon.

"The initiative, also known as Measure 6, was inaugurated by the Scottish Rite Masons of Oregon. Proponents included the Ku Klux Klan and the Federation of Patriotic Societies, who believed that the law was necessary to preserve and perpetuate a homogeneous American culture."

https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/pierce_vs_society_of_sisters_1925_/#.YLZJEqhKgfI

If you think the Ku Klux Klan was in favor of improved academics, then you're welcome to your opinion, I guess.

[Krychek_2]

Cal, if we looked long enough and hard enough, we'd probably find some issue somewhere on which you agree with the Klan. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. It's a logical fallacy to say that a viewpoint is wrong because some bad people happen to agree with it.

[Cal Cetín]

It's a logical fallacy to say the Klan backed this initiative out of a concern for academic quality.

As for captcrisis' "other democracies," which of them banned private schools?

If you're arguing that America is marching out of step with the rest of the world in allowing private schools, presumably you should follow this up by showing that private schools are banned in the other democracies we're comparing the U. S. to.

[Cal Cetín]

"Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."

So was this particular stopped clock (the Ku Klux Klan) right about banning private schools? If so, why was it right?

[Cal Cetín]

I Presume that KaptKrisis and Krychek2 are willing to repudiate and disavow Steve Suitts' recent book Overturning Brown: The Segregationist Legacy of the Modern School Choice Movement (New South Books, 2020)?

After all, even if this books were true (which I doubt), it's nothing more than irrelevant guilt by association and a stopped clock can be right twice a day!

https://reason.com/2020/05/24/no-segregationists-werent-the-driving-force-behind-school-choice/

[Sarcastr0]

Maybe stop putting words in people's mouth.

No one here advocated for segregation on either side of this discussion, nor do they agree with the KKK.

[Sarcastr0]

I think it's sadly not borne out by the data, but saying more education means a higher quality of civic engagement is not a position that implies you're down with the KKK.

[Cal Cetín]

The KKK supported *less* education. They wanted to *close* schools.

[Krychek_2]

Sarcastro, birds fly, fish swim, and Cal puts words in other people's mouths. It's what he does. I've lost track of how many outlandish views he's ascribed to me in the past.

Cal, are you familiar with the logical fallacy of "doesn't necessarily follow"? Because most of the crap you ascribe to me fits under that heading.

It is possible for different people to support the same policy for different reasons. Maybe you support private gun ownership because you think people have the right to self defense, whereas a professional bank robber supports private gun ownership because it helps him rob banks. That someone agrees with the Klan's bottom line on a specific issue doesn't mean they have the same motives the Klan has.

PS I don't support banning private schools. You are welcome to cease and desist with ascribing outlandish positions that I haven't taken to me any time.

[Cal Cetín]

"PS I don’t support banning private schools."

So sensitive! It was Captain Crunch, not you, who said that because of the Pierce decision, "we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies."

Don't white-knight him, let him defend his proposition.

All I asked you was what you meant by a stopped clock - in this context the Klan - being right twice a day. Does that mean the Klan was right about private schools?

I think you're assuming that even when I put a question mark after a sentence my question is rhetorical and not seeking information.

No, I'm genuinely curious about how you tick (or stop ticking).

[Cal Cetín]

Just list the propositions I've misattribued to you, show (preferably with links) where I misattributed them, and if you're correct about my errors I'll make it right!

[Cal Cetín]

Well, this is certainly more than the people who misattributed things to *me* were willing to do. I'm offering to retract any mistaken attributions, when did anyone offer to do the same for things they misattributed to me?

[Krychek_2]

OK, back up a minute. My original comment was in response to your statement:

"captcrisis is literally defending the position taken by the Ku Klux Klan in Oregon."

To which the answer is so what? Just because bad people take a certain position doesn't mean that position is wrong. That Mussolini famously made the trains run on time doesn't mean there is anything the matter with having the trains run on time. And that's all I said: Please don't smear people by claiming that there is something sinister about them agreeing with the Klan on one particular issue -- and not even necessarily for the same reasons. Otherwise you might find yourself being lumped in with bank robbers because both of you support private ownership of firearms (albeit for different reasons).

Now, as for what I actually think about private schools: Some of them are better than others. I am a product of private Christian education, and I thought the earth was only 6000 years old until I hit college. I thought that the white Europeans were justified in every bad thing they did to the Native Americans because the Native Americans were pagan idolaters who didn't worship the one true God. I thought slavery was good for Africans because it put them in a place where they could hear the Christian gospel, which is an opportunity they would not have had back in Africa. I thought the Holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus. Now, you tell me if I got a good education?

None of which is sufficient to ban private schools. But, capt does have a point that a certain number of them are basically Christian madrassas that exist more to indoctrinate than to educate. And bear some responsibility for the results.

[Cal Cetín]

Well, it seems you really *have* "lost track of how many outlandish views [I've] ascribed to [you] in the past" - because you can't seem to remember any of them - even after I offered you a chance to provide examples (hopefully accompanied by links) so that I could make it up to you if I was wrong.

I assume, then, that since you're not willing to back up your accusations with evidence, this is the last we'll hear of this particular slur?

[Krychek_2]

No it means I have other things to do than wade through the last two months worth of threads.

[Cal Cetín]

Did you at least object at the time? If not, why bring it up now?

[Cal Cetín]

Anyway, we can get some idea of the quality of your accusation by looking at examples in this very thread, where in fact it was you, not I, who misattributed things, despite your protests to the contrary.

So can get some idea of whether your claims about my past behavior are valid, especially since I certainly don't recall you protesting at the time.

[Krychek_2]

OK, "did you at least object at the time" acknowledges that there were other times. I objected this time because it's a continuing problem.

[Cal Cetín]

You objected this time because you misunderstood what I said, to put it charitably.

[Cal Cetín]

"To which the answer is so what? Just because bad people take a certain position doesn’t mean that position is wrong."

And I gave you a chance to back up your supposed principles by repudiating one of your fellow-liberals, who used precisely such "logic," namely Steve Suitts with his book smearing the school-choice movement with precisely the sort of fallacy you just got through condemning.

Yet you responded by doing what you attribute to me - namely misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say you were a segregationist, I asked you to repudiate Steve Suitts' logic. If you still don't get it, the link I provided might be able to help you.

[Krychek_2]

I am not responsible for what any of my fellow liberals say.

[Cal Cetín]

Excellent, but it would be useful if you could enlighten your fellow liberals that guilt-by-association isn't simply one of those "OK when we do it, but fine to use on others" kinds of things. Not that you believe such things for an instant, but as a liberal* you would greater credibility in denouncing people like Suitts' et. al.

*Or left-liberal, since by world standards American "conservatives" are fairly liberal as well.

[Cal Cetín]

"But, capt does have a point that a certain number of them are basically Christian madrassas"

Maybe I missed that. I thought Captain Crunch’s response to the Pierce decision was this: “As a result, we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies.”

[Krychek_2]

His comment and mine are not mutually exclusive.

[Cal Cetín]

He seemed to have a broader point about the legalization of private schools (which I thought were also legal in "other democracies"), but I'll be the first to admit I can't quite get his point.

[Cal Cetín]

"No one here advocated for segregation on either side of this discussion"

Now who's misattributing?

-The Oregon Klan wanted to ban private schools.

-They succeeded.

-It went up to the Supreme Court.

-The Klan lost.

-Captain Crunch's response to the Pierce decision: "As a result, we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies."

What on earth does that mean?

I never meant to suggest that any of you in the liberal faction support racially-segregated affinity groups in workplaces!

[Cal Cetín]

"No one here advocated for segregation on either side of this discussion"

As I said, I never claimed your side supported segregationist policies such as racially-separate affinity groups at workplaces. That's just anecdotal and is probably being done by crypto-conservatives.

"nor do they agree with the KKK"

You should coordinate your talking points with Krychek. When I said

"captcrisis is literally defending the position taken by the Ku Klux Klan in Oregon.”

Krycheck replied:

"To which the answer is so what?"

So we're between "nobody agreed with the KKK" to "so what if they did"?

And if in fact guilt-by association is off the table and is a shockingly wrong debate tactic and should never, ever be used, I presume that you're going to repudiate the racism accusations against school-choice supporters and...well, against anyone who isn't woke.

This will require you to fight your own side, but I'm happy to assume you'd take up the burden of such a catfight, just as I'm happy to reject Krychek's Cristian school which supposedly justified all the atrocities of the whites vs. the Native Americans, or the right-winger below who allegedly justified a Myanman-like coup, or the posters (now blocked for me) who say various bad things (or so I presume they continue to do, since they were doing so before I blocked them).

[Bob from Ohio]

"As a result, we have a population remarkably more ignorant than in other democracies."

As you demonstrate by this statement.

Modern US liberarlism is a living illustration of "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Inflicting substandard education on children doesn't seem much an accomplishment. McReynolds -- a jerk to the core -- was the proper justice to author such a damaging decision.

[apedad]

O/T: Did anyone attend the circus in Dallas over the weekend?

Some of the three-ring acts included:

* Michael Flynn, former President Donald Trump's first national security adviser, appeared to endorse a Myanmar-style coup in the United States. "There’s 'no reason' a coup like Myanmar’s can’t happen here, Flynn replied, to the clear approval of the crowd. 'I mean, it should happen — that’s right.'”
*‘Kraken’ Lawyer Sidney Powell, "received applause as she insisted that the presidential election could be overturned. The audience especially went wild after she said 'It should be that he can simply be reinstated, that a new inauguration date is set, and Biden is told to move out of the White House and President Trump should be moved back in.'”
* Republican congressman Louie Gohmert claimed he was unaware that the "For God & Country Patriot Roundup" was heavily linked to QAnon. "I did not know, and still do not know about a supposed QAnon event, nor did I know what the QAnon slogan was or is—or that there was even a QAnon slogan— nor do I know who or what a QAnon slogan is," Gohmert said. Gohmert also posed for pictures with popular QAnon promoter RedPill78, real name Zak Paine.

[Bob from Ohio]

We don't care. The Left has its freak shows too.

[Cal Cetín]

I've taken up the challenge of fighting "my" side, the better to encourage left-liberal posters to fight "their" side, so here goes:

"“There’s ‘no reason’ a coup like Myanmar’s can’t happen here, Flynn replied, to the clear approval of the crowd."

That would be a bad thing. A Myanmar-style coup against the Biden administration would be a Very Bad Thing.

"‘Kraken’ Lawyer Sidney Powell, “received applause as she insisted that the presidential election could be overturned."

That's bad. It's a Very Bad Thing. I learned in "Scary Movie" that girls named Sidney have issues.

"Republican congressman Louie Gohmert claimed he was unaware that the “For God & Country Patriot Roundup” was heavily linked to QAnon."

Q Anon is bad, and here I'm relying on the accounts of people who are warning about the insidious influence of Q Anon, since I've never heard one of these guys talk about their monomaniacal theories. But Q Anon is bad. Very Bad.

[ReaderY]

Atlantic did an article fairly recently entitled “Private Schools are Indefensible.”

[Cal Cetín]

More like "rich, entitled people are rich and entitled."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/private-schools-are-indefensible/618078/

The author asks a perfectly good question:

"Shouldn’t the schools that serve poor children be the very best schools we have?"

Her answer has to do with the rich-people private schools: "If these schools really care about equity, all they need to do is get a chain and a padlock and close up shop."

She doesn't discuss the private schools which *aren't* awash on a sea of rich-people money.

I suppose she wants the children of the poor to have vouchers and charter school programs to get into better schools than they have now?