The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Tinker, Mahanoy, Students, Hecklers, and Lawyers
The heckler's veto, in school and out.
[1.] Alice is burning an American flag in a public place. Some people threaten to attack her if she doesn't stop. A police officer therefore orders her to stop: "It's my job to preserve the peace, and prevent fights and other disruptions. Your symbolic expression is causing such disruption, so it's no longer protected by the First Amendment."
Unconstitutional, the Court would say (at least unless her speech consists of personally insulting and individually targeted "fighting words," or is intended to and likely to produce imminent violence): That would be an impermissible "heckler's veto." In the words of the Court in Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement (1992),
Speech cannot be financially burdened, … punished[,] or banned[] simply because it might offend a hostile mob.
Nor does it matter that the police officer (unlike the hostile mob) may be sincerely concerned about the harmful consequences of the speech, rather than motivated by ideological opposition to the speech. The government must bear the cost—which may be a substantial cost—of allowing the speech, protecting the speaker, and (if necessary) prosecuting anyone who attacks or threatens to attack the speaker.
[2.] But what if Bob is corresponding cryptographically with Alice is wearing (not burning) an American flag T-shirt in a public school, and some people threaten to attack him if he doesn't stop (because he's wearing the flag on Cinco de Mayo, and some Mexican-American students view such display of the American flag to be racist and insulting)? Under Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. School. Dist. (1969), the Court's leading K-12 student speech case,
[C]onduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason—whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior—materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech.
And in Dariano v. Morgan Hill Unified School Dist. (9th Cir. 2014), the Ninth Circuit cited this sentence to conclude that Bob's speech can be stopped (emphasis added):
We recognize that, in certain contexts, limiting speech because of reactions to the speech may give rise to concerns about a "heckler's veto." But the language of Tinker and the school setting guides us here.
Where speech "for any reason … materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others," school officials may limit the speech. To require school officials to precisely identify the source of a violent threat before taking readily-available steps to quell the threat would burden officials' ability to protect the students in their charge—a particularly salient concern in an era of rampant school violence, much of it involving guns, other weapons, or threats on the internet—and run counter to the longstanding directive that there is a distinction between "threats or acts of violence on school premises" and speech that engenders no "substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities."
In the school context, the crucial distinction is the nature of the speech, not the source of it. The cases do not distinguish between "substantial disruption" caused by the speaker and "substantial disruption" caused by the reactions of onlookers or a combination of circumstances. See, e.g., Taylor v. Roswell Indep. Sch. Dist. (10th Cir. 2013) (observing that "Plaintiffs note that most disruptions occurred only because of wrongful behavior of third parties and that no Plaintiffs participated in these activities…. This argument might be effective outside the school context, but it ignores the `special characteristics of the school environment,'" and that the court "ha[d] not found[] case law holding that school officials' ability to limit disruptive expression depends on the blameworthiness of the speaker. To the contrary, the Tinker rule is guided by a school's need to protect its learning environment and its students, and courts generally inquire only whether the potential for substantial disruption is genuine."); Zamecnik v. Indian Prairie School Dist. No. 204 (7th Cir. 2011) (looking to the reactions of onlookers to determine whether the speech could be regulated); Holloman ex rel. Holloman v. Harland (11th Cir. 2004) (looking to the reactions of onlookers to determine whether a student's expression "cause[d] (or [was] likely to cause) a material and substantial disruption"); [citing also various Confederate flag display cases].
[3.] Now let's move to Mahanoy Area School Dist. v. B.L., which was just argued today before the Supreme Court. The facts of the case (a disgruntled cheerleader suspended for a year from the team because she Snapchatted a photo of herself showing the middle finger, with the caption "Fuck school fuck softball fuck cheer fuck everything") are far removed from flags or big-picture political advocacy. But the question presented before the Court is much broader than just those facts:
Whether Tinker, which holds that public school officials may regulate speech that would materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school, applies to student speech that occurs off campus.
You see now why the heckler's veto question is so important: If the answer to this question is "yes"—if a school can say, "we're punishing your off-campus speech because it causes on-campus disruption" and if that disruption can flow from students being offended enough by the speech—then Bob/Dariano could be punished for wearing an American flag T-shirt on Cinco de Mayo anywhere in town, or in an Internet post. All it would take is for some people to say that they're super-offended and will punch Bob on May 6, when he comes back to school (or that they will otherwise disrupt school), and the school could then tell Bob and his buddies that they had best comply with the heckler's demands as to all their speech, 24/7.
And the list could go on: A student could be punished for displaying a Confederate flag anywhere at any time (assuming this speech could be seen at school, which is very likely for any online speech or offline speech that could be recorded by someone). A student could be punished for a speech at a rally or at a church that sufficiently offends classmates on any basis (and especially race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.). A student could be punished for an op-ed in the local newspaper that expresses controversial political views, since of course that op-ed could be read at school and cause disruption at school.
The outcome in Dariano, I think, is very bad (though consistent with the reasoning of many lower court cases interpreting Tinker). But that result, coupled with a rule holding Tinker applicable to off-campus speech, would be utterly intolerable.
[4.] And perhaps because of this, in today's oral argument, Lisa Blatt—the ace Supreme Court litigator who is representing the school—argued (a) for the Tinker disruption test applying outside school (as her client's position required), but (b) for Tinker to be read, in school and out, in a speech-protective way that largely rejects the heckler's veto:
[S]chools cannot target political and religious speech…. [T]his Court can clarify Tinker's reach both on and off campus. It is irrelevant that critical or unpopular speech is the but-for cause of substantial disruption. The speech itself must be culpable. It must inherently compromise school functions, like organizing lockouts. Or the speech must objectively interfere with the rights of others, like severe bullying.
But, if listeners riot because they find speech offensive, schools should punish the rioters, not the speaker. In other words, the hecklers don't get the veto. Schools' special needs are limited to teaching kids how to think, not what to think….
JUSTICE ALITO: … [L]et me give you an example …. [S]ince Tinker occurred back during the Vietnam War, it … will relate to that. So, during the war, a student says, war is immoral, American soldiers are baby killers, I hope there are a lot of casualties so that people will rise up. Even if that would cause a disruption in the school, I understand you to say the school couldn't do anything about it. Is that right?
MS. BLATT: That's correct, that would be a heckler's veto, no can do.
[Later, responding to Justice Kagan.]
MS. BLATT: … [T]he leading case on this is K.D. versus Fillmore. It is … a brilliant case where the T-shirt was "Abortion is homicide" T-shirt. Kids having abortions were upset. They said it was false because abortion is actually legal. And the school said: Get over it…. [H]e is passively wearing the shirt. He's not terrorizing kids with it. He's going about his day. Leave him alone.
And that case is cited as the gospel case for heckler's veto….
Malcolm Stewart, arguing for the federal government as amicus in support of the school as to the result, seemed to largely agree:
[E]ven in cases where we are applying Tinker, you should not just look to … the likelihood that disruption will result…. [Y]ou should employ concepts like proximate cause to determine if a disruption does result, can that properly be attributed to the speaker or is it the fault … of the listener?
The proximate cause approach is a bit slippery, because, when Bob's actions foreseeably lead Charlie to commit a tort or crime against Donna, Bob's actions are often treated as the "proximate cause" of the harm, despite Charlie's misconduct. The reactions of a heckler often will be foreseeable to the speaker (even if the speaker doesn't actually want those reactions to happen).
But in context, it appears that the government, like the school district, is trying to urge a narrow reading of Tinker (speech can't be punished because of heckler's potential misconduct) in order to encourage the Court to adopt a broader zone of applicability for Tinker (speech can be punished under Tinker even if it's off-campus).
Conversely, Georgetown law professor David Cole (national legal director of the ACLU), arguing for the student, and for the argument that Tinker doesn't apply off-campus, is stressing that courts have read Tinker as allowing a broad range of speech restrictions:
Within the context of school supervision, whether it's an after-school program, whether it's a class trip, whether it's in the classroom, Tinker applies, and Tinker does mean that the school can shut down a speaker if that speaker['s] … words are going to lead to disruption, period. Whether it's political, whether it's religious, … that's the state of the law … in the cases below. I don't know where the other side gets this exception for political or religious speech. It just doesn't exist based on the case law….
In school, you can apply Tinker. [But o]ut of school, you can't. What does that mean? It means you can't punish out-of-school speech because listeners in school might be disrupted by the message.
Lisa Blatt picked up on that, unsurprisingly, in the rebuttal:
There's some sort of twilight zone going on when the head of the ACLU says that schools allow hecklers' veto, punishment for whistleblowing, any kind of reporting, any kind of criticism, all that matters is someone is offended. And you have the Biden administration and the school districts saying that's not true. That's not what Tinker allows…. [T]he Saxe opinion [a Third Circuit opinion by then-Judge Alito], the Morse concurrence [by Justice Alito], … have left … clear lines for schools and that hecklers' vetoes are not allowed.
And your choice is this: If … you could choose to either tighten Tinker or you can say, well, we're going to assume Tinker is out of control on campus, but we will leave open season on schools and complete chaos as to what their test allows.
Now these are all lawyers at the top of their games, rightly making the arguments aimed at winning this particular case on behalf of their clients. And all of their positions are quite plausible. There is indeed ample Supreme Court authority condemning heckler's vetoes that the Court could impose on Tinker and K-12 school cases. There is also indeed ample lower court authority accepting heckler's vetoes, which David Cole of the ACLU correctly noted.
But the arguments highlight, I think, just how central the heckler's veto question—can student speech be punished as disruptive because some people find its viewpoint offensive and threaten to attack the speakers or disrupt classes?—is to the off-campus/on-campus question (does the Tinker lower level of protection for speech apply to school outside school and outside school-operated activities?). And I hope that when the case is handed down (which ought to be by late June) the Court will tell us something about the heckler's veto question.
Disclosure: My colleague Stuart Banner and I filed an amicus brief in the case, signed by Prof. Jane Bambauer, Prof. Ashutosh Bhagwat, and me. Our argument was similar to the ACLU's, which is that Tinker has been read as allowing a good deal of speech suppression at school, and thus shouldn't be extended outside school—but, again, much of that argument turns on lower courts' broadly speech-restrictive (and pro-heckler's-veto) view of the Tinker test, which the Court could overrule if it so chooses.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"The government must bear the cost"
Cost is doing a potential *lot* of work here. Let's say there's one cop there, and he honestly thinks the crowd could easily overwhelm him, harm him, and then go on to do whatever they wanted to the speaker. He still can't say 'hey, stop that and I'm taking you out of here!' This seems like crazytown where a very abstract good is held over physical harm to actual persons and property.
"Nor does it matter ...The government must bear the cost—which may be a substantial cost—of allowing ... who attacks or threatens to attack the speaker."
As long as Alice is willing to bear the cost, then the police officer should stand back.
The police officer has to protect Alice even from her wishes to be harmed, police do that all the time.
Within the limits of the law...
If the police decide you're "in danger" and arrest or move you for your own safety...even if what you're doing is entirely legal.
That's a road you don't want to go down.
I'm not concerned, in general. The cops cordon off half a city block when there's a bank robbery going on (or a threatened suicide, etc etc etc etc). Those cops will stop you, and any on-press member from crossing over the police tape. I'm perfectly happy to go down that road.
Absent the edge cases; I suspect that 99% of us are also perfectly fine with obeying police directions to avoid areas that are temporarily seen as off-limits to the general public. The major exceptions I've seen to this are homeowners who ask a cop, "You're dealing with a domestic disturbance across and down the street from my own house. Here's my ID with my address...can I drive in past the barriers, and park in my garage?" And I've never seen a cop refuse this request.
There's a difference between blocking off an area in general, and being told that the lawful activity you're doing is a "danger" and you'll need to stop, or else be forced to stop.
That is how conservative students in academia are silenced -- the cops shut down our events.
As for your case with the cop...
I've had that happen to me. Of course, at the time I was renting and my license hadn't been updated to the new house yet. The cop refused my request to get to my own house...
But
1) he cannot bar the threat to Alice and
2) he cannot remove Alice from the occasion of harm.
Haven't courts all the way up to the Supreme Court repeatedly ruled that police have no legally enforceable obligation to protect anyone other than people already in police custody?
Why? Alice presumably paid her taxes, she's doing something explicitly allowed and the potential harm is from law-breaking third parties.
The 'risk of being overwhelmed' says 'call for backup'. But assuming the hypothetical that for some strained reason, that's not possible, a) the cop is not obligated to die attempting to protect Alice, b) the cop would be entirely justified in trying to convince Alice to leave voluntarily but c) the cop has no legal basis to compel Alice to leave. D) Regardless, the cop (or more precisely, the state) has the obligation to bear the costs of clean up in the form of finding and prosecuting the actual criminals.
Consider a less emotionally-loaded example. Citizen wants to go for a walk. Cop thinks the neighborhood is bad and that the citizen will get mugged or even murdered. Regardless of the accuracy of the cop's beliefs, the cop has no authority to stop the citizen from taking his walk. Attempting to do so would be a flagrant violation of the Fourth Amendment. Nor may the cop later use the "I told you so" excuse to avoid the work of investigating the murder and prosecuting the criminal(s).
I submit a legal regime which requires the cop to leave Alice to be murdered by the mob in order to protect her abstract 'freedom of expression' is crazy. Expression is really, really, really important. It is not worth lives, is it?
Mind you, I don't think the cop can arrest and the system punish her. But he should absolutely be able to stop her speech in this situation.
Yes, it really, really is worth lives. Countless martyrs have given their lives for causes they believed in. Their sacrifices created the civilization that you enjoy.
"Their sacrifices created"
A few did, almost all were just wasted.
Perhaps. But Queen A's proposed legal standard would bar all of them.
"legal regime which requires the cop to leave Alice to be murdered by the mob in order to protect her abstract ‘freedom of expression’ is crazy"
Agreed. Protective custody is a well established thing, getting Alice out of danger is consistent with that.
Though personally, I would hope she got the snot kicked out of her.
But what if Alice wanted to say that BLM was BS?
Protective custody does not mean what you seem to think it does. In particular, it is not involuntary (except in the cases of minors or prisoners being protected from other prisoners).
In other words, you can offer me protective custody and you can do your best to talk me into accepting it but you cannot compel me to accept the offer nor may you use it as an excuse to arrest me when I refuse.
"This seems like crazytown where a very abstract good is held over physical harm to actual persons and property."
You're suggesting that the government should be able to ban speech in favor of, say, gay rights, if it determines that such speakers are in danger and it is to costly to protect them? That's the alternative.
You're forgetting, the speaker isn't the one committing the crime here. The crowd in this hypothetical is. But in this case, because it is easier to 'punish' the speaker in order to prevent the crowd from committing additional crimes it's okay?
I mean, sure the speaker very well may end up battered, bruised, seriously injured or in some cases killed; but it's still their right to speak. That is their decision to make and consequences to deal with.
The alternative is going to be abused, not just by crowds but by officials of all kinds. Now permits to protest will be withdrawn because 'that group' is going to counter protest and cause a riot. Or an office will say "Oh hey there's a large crowd here that's going to riot (commit crimes) if you speak, so you're not allowed to speak.", because they really don't agree with or care what the speaker has to say.
This idea that we should curtail freedoms of an individual because 'someone else' is going to commit a crime because they want to prevent that freedom from being exercised is really quite ludicrous to me.
If I didn't know any better I would swear you were talking about the second amendment. The last line of your comment spells it all out;
This idea that we should curtail freedoms of an individual because ‘someone else’ is going to commit a crime because they want to prevent that freedom from being exercised is really quite ludicrous to me.
Cheers to you
This is one of the applications of this line of thought, yes. At this juncture, it wouldn't surprise me if someone came out with the idea that every freedom should be put to this litmus test of a lawbreaker disallowing everyone else from having that freedom.
" So, the official test now for whether an expressive event succeeds in its purpose is not whether the speakers are able to say their piece, nor whether those who want to listen actually get to hear. The test is that nobody was killed during the course of an event where not a word was heard, where no political views were aired, where no debate took place. "
See: https://www.wgbh.org/news/2017/08/21/free-speech-banned-boston-common-citys-ignominious-failure
Thank you for that link.
"some people threaten to attack him if he doesn't stop (because he's wearing the flag on Cinco de Mayo, and some Mexican-American students view such display of the American flag to be racist and insulting)? "
I'm sorry what? What? Fuck those people. This is ... one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Americans weren't even involved in Cino de Mayo! It was the French! Maybe if he wore a French shirt? I dont understand this. People are stupid. This is stupid.
It's kind of like wearing a 'White Lives Matter' shirt to a 'Black Lives Matter' event.
The idea of somebody's else's life also mattering is offensive to BLM? That says a lot about BLM -- and the Mexican children.
Like the Klan was as much or more anti-black as pro-white, BLM is actually more anti-white than pro-black. They're actually happy to see innocent blacks come to harm, if they can stick it to whites, or just to the other-than-them power structure.
Likewise, the threat when you're wearing an American flag on the fifth of May isn't from Mexican-Americans, (Who like Irish-Americans or Swiss-Americans, or what have you, are firstly Americans.) it's from members of the Reconquista, an explicitly anti-American organization.
"BLM is actually more anti-white than pro-black"
Where do you get such nonsense?
"Likewise,"
Huh? What's the analogy you think you're making?
Oh, you didn't notice them getting mad about a cop stopping a black girl from being carved up by a maniac with a knife? Maybe you've been hiding in a cave for the last year, while BLM rioted and burned down black neighborhoods, and destroyed black businesses?
Perhaps you should pay more attention to what's going on around you, and draw appropriate conclusions.
"Huh? What’s the analogy you think you’re making?"
BLM and the Reconquisa are both explicitly anti-American organizations. They don't even pretend, though the media sometimes pretend on their behalf.
"you didn’t notice them getting mad about a cop stopping a black girl from being carved up by a maniac with a knife"
OK, this demonstrates the lengths you will go to in order to give them a bad reading. Clearly any fair minded reading is they are mad about the shooting of the black child (and I can say child here with no problem, this isn't a Bloomberg child gun death of a 17 year old gang banger). Now, I think they are wrong here because the 13 year old was trying to harm another child. But to read out that their chief concern here is the shooting of a black 13 year old girl is either incredibly obtuse or dishonest.
"Maybe you’ve been hiding in a cave for the last year, while BLM rioted and burned down black neighborhoods, and destroyed black businesses?"
Again, clearly their intent is not to march around and burn down black neighborhoods and businesses. People tend to react like this *in the neighborhoods that are affected.* I don't think they should do this either but I also don't know what it's like to live in an overpoliced hellscape like, say, Ferguson either. I don't know how I would react, and I'm not sure I would be sure to react by driving to another neighborhood to express my upset.
"Again, clearly their intent is not to march around and burn down black neighborhoods and businesses."
Why shouldn't I deduce their intent from what they do? That's how I expect people to deduce MY intent.
"People tend to react like this *in the neighborhoods that are affected.*"
No. NO!
People normally don't tend to react like this, PERIOD. Stop treating rioting and looting as though it were some ordinary, everyday, "Anybody would have done that!" activity. It's not.
It's a violent criminal activity that almost nobody normally engages in, and which most of the people where it's happening aren't engaging in.
Civilization itself is only possible because rioting is, in fact, a highly aberrant activity that practically nobody does!
"Why shouldn’t I deduce their intent from what they do? "
Uh, because you're not an idiot who falls prey to things like the third variable problem?
"“People tend to react like this *in the neighborhoods that are affected.*”
People normally don’t tend to react like this, PERIOD. Stop treating rioting and looting as though it were some ordinary, everyday, "
This is a problem of writing versus speaking, if speaking my emphasis would show that this says that *when* people, especially poor people, are outraged by neighborhood outrages they tend to act out *in their neighborhoods.* What are they going to do, drive to the police officer's neighborhoods and act out?
So liberals should condemn conservative gun rights groups for any gun crimes they argued against criminalizing?
Rioting and looting are already illegal, you do understand that, right?
"“Again, clearly their intent is not to march around and burn down black neighborhoods and businesses.”"
I'm sorry but downtown Oakland, a majority minority city is an economic ruin from BLM protesters doing just that. They compound the results of the 2008 fiscal emergency and the COVID lockdown with indiscriminate destruction.
It's my city and I am pissed about it and about the city officials who gave them a pass
And I'd add that the police conduct this is supposedly in response to has actually been declining, and is damned rare, BLM themselves have now killed more innocent black people than the police do in a decade.
BLM is a Marxist revolutionary movement. They're not into solving social problems, they're into exacerbating them to make society break down enough that revolution might be feasible.
"Worse is better", that's their real motto.
"And I’d add that the police conduct this is supposedly in response to has actually been declining, and is damned rare,"
This is a goalpost shift.
"BLM themselves have now killed more innocent black people than the police do in a decade"
I'd be interested in a citation for that.
"BLM is a Marxist revolutionary movement. "
It's a pretty incredibly broad movement. I'm sure some involved are that, and some are not.
Yeah, the leadership are Marxist terrorists, the useful idiots mostly aren't Marxists, anyway. Terrorists? Yeah, violence to advance political ends is definitionally terrorism.
The effects of Black Lives Matter protests
"From 2014 to 2019, Campbell tracked more than 1,600 BLM protests across the country, largely in bigger cities, with nearly 350,000 protesters. His main finding is a 15 to 20 percent reduction in lethal use of force by police officers — roughly 300 fewer police homicides — in census places that saw BLM protests.
Campbell’s research also indicates that these protests correlate with a 10 percent increase in murders in the areas that saw BLM protests. That means from 2014 to 2019, there were somewhere between 1,000 and 6,000 more homicides than would have been expected if places with protests were on the same trend as places that did not have protests. Campbell’s research does not include the effects of last summer’s historic wave of protests because researchers do not yet have all the relevant data."
So, 3-20 extra murders for every police homicide averted, and almost all the police homicides are justifiable. And that's not counting last year.
" these protests correlate with a 10 percent increase in murders in the areas that saw BLM protests"
Holy shit, I knew you were going there. Because you are you....You really think you can condemn a group or movement for the increased deaths in the area without proof the group did them?
I mean, confounding variables, how do they work? And especially how do they work when you are a partisan extremist who wants to see what he wants to see?
You're acting like a caricature here.
Do I think you can blame a movement demanding the police go away for the consequences of the police going away?
Damn straight I do.
Sorry, that sort of blindingly obvious action/consequence doesn't fit into QA's personal system of "lived logic."
“lived logic.”
Notice he doesn't mention inductive logic. Because that would lead to the unsettling 'what's that, that wasn't in my gen ed course" that infuses the Brians.
Right. Because that wasn't the stupid-juice-infused terminology in your post. "Lived logic" was.
"Notice he doesn’t mention inductive logic"
Why would anybody mention logic which you are demonstrably incapable of using?
"(and I can say child here with no problem, this isn’t a Bloomberg child gun death of a 17 year old gang banger). Now, I think they are wrong here because the 13 year old was trying to harm another child."
It was a 16 year old.
But you see, QA's "lived logic" says that 16 is closer to 13 than it is to 17. So the only problem is in your overly formalistic head.
Ma'Khia Bryant was 16 years old, not 13,
However, does Queen Amalthea object to a "child" getting an abortion without parental consent?
You are so right. BLM is willing to sacrifice the lives of useful black idiots to bolster their anti-white agenda. Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington had a lot to say about these for profit race baiters and agitators. But they are probably cancelled these days.
LOL at invoking Frederick Douglass against BLM.
This says a lot about you, that you don't get what BLM is trying to say. It's likely your tribalism getting in the way...I mean, can you really be that obtuse to BLM's message that you would say "The idea of somebody’s else’s life also mattering is offensive to BLM?"
Let me guess, you're not known for carefully and thoughtfully listening to people you disagree with, are you?
It's not that complicated. If you say, "Black lives matter!" that communicates that you believe black lives matter, and nothing more.
If you say "Black lives matter!", and get mad if anybody says that all lives matter, instead of agreeing with them and saying that was your point, then you're communicating that only black lives matter.
And, if you don't want to communicate that, don't get mad when somebody says all lives matter, because blacks are part of all, so they're agreeing with you.
"If you say, “Black lives matter!” that communicates that you believe black lives matter, and nothing more."
That's incredibly obtuse. It is clearly meant to mean 'black lives matter too' or, to be more complicated, 'authority figures don't seem to think black lives matter, but they do!"
It's like if there was a motto 'Black representation in comics now!' and you showed up at an event based on that with 'white representation in comics now!' and said 'hey, don't you care about white representation?'
Yeah, I guess you're not big on formal logic.
If I say, "Black lives matter", in isolation, it carries no implications either positive or negative concerning whether white, red, or even green, lives matter. You're asserting something about black lives, and ONLY black lives. So somebody saying "white lives matter", or "all lives matter", isn't contradicting you.
If you then proceed to get made when they don't contradict you about black lives mattering, you are demonstrating that you meant that assertion to exclude other lives mattering, that there was an implicit, "only".
Once again, conservatives show an overamplified reliance on formal logic but an ignorance of inductive logic. Which is *lived* logic, to a large degree. This is really obtuse.
Wow, bragging about being illogical.
Lol, conservative once again doesn't get there is an entire branch of logic (inductive logic) they seem ignorant of.
Queenie, I'd be very very careful throwing around terms you don't appear to understand.
Inductive logic doesn't mean you get to make up your own personal *system* of logic, which is how you appear to be bandying it about.
There's nothing in Brett's original post that (actual) inductive logic opposes. If you feel differently, feel free to step right up and actually explain why.
If "Black lives matter" clearly meant that 'black lives matter too', then no one should have objected to "All lives matter".
Yet that didn't happen. The rather loud objections to "All lives matter" made it pretty clear that at least those people meant 'only black lives matter'.
Are you really, actually in that obtuse of a bubble?
Do you really think that BLM is just a random black nationalist organization with no connection to the idea that they think authority figures *don't think black lives matter as much as other lives?*
Holy shit.
Have you ever talked to a black person? Or rather maybe listened?
I mean, do you think when gay persons said 'Gay Pride' they were a gay supremacist organization suggesting only gay persons can or should have pride?
You cannot be this dense.
"Do you really think that BLM is just a random black nationalist organization with no connection to the idea that they think authority figures *don’t think black lives matter as much as other lives?*"
No, I think they're a revolutionary Marxist movement founded by a graduate of the Weathermen school of terrorism, and with a convicted terrorist on their board of directors.
"with a convicted terrorist on their board of directors."
This proves a lot to me, because a *movement* is not an organization usually. But you use the terms interchangeably.
What's called 'Black Lives Matter' is a very general, dispersed, shared idea by a lot of folks that black lives are not respected by authority like other lives are. I'm sure there are opportunists and activists trying to play into it, but they are certainly not what this is all about. The movement may very well be misguided in large part. But the obtuseness with which you and others casually deal with their 'motives' and such is silly.
Please, not that "just an idea" crap that people try with Antifa.
BLM does have an organizational structure, and they've got a convicted terrorist on the board of their fundraising division, as well as having been founded by a Weathermen alumni.
I see no reason we shouldn't treat people who will come out and say they're Marxists as bad or worse than we treat people who will come out and say they're Nazis. Marxism is just Fascism's more deadly big brother.
"Please, not that “just an idea” crap that people try with Antifa."
Well, yes, I certainly think this is true with Antifa.
Do you think all anti-government activists are part of the same organization? All 'tea party' activists?
Clearly not, the 'Tea Party activists' (your term, not mine)...did not riot, did not loot, did not burn down businesses, did not commit murder and mayhem in pursuit of their cause.
Oh, Queen -- this really happened:
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/07/08/melrose-mayor-all-lives-matter-traffic-sign/
BLM is pure anti-white tribalism, period.
If the message was truly Black Lives Matter -- then all black lives would matter, not just those taken by white authority figures or the occasion peckerwood/redneck.
With over 30 blacks murdered in Columbus so far this year, only two seem to have drawn the most attention. Care to guess what they have in common?
Two of them were caused by state violence, which is the ultimate abuse of government authority, and 28 were not?
Ummm, at least one strikes me as third party self defense.
As long as the fellow is willing to bear the cost. Or so the doctrine goes.
In other words, completely innocuous except to someone who wants to be offended.
You're describing the conservative white freak out to BLM? Sure.
You're insinuating that black people are violent?
Racist.
Yawn.
I mean, no it isn't. Its an American flag. And the analogy doesn't work at all. Cino de Mayo is a celebration of Mexican Heritage. Someone who is not Mexican might be deemed "appropiating" for celebrating it. Wearing the flag has nothing to do with Cinco de Mayo.
Whereas "White lives matter" can plausibly be interpreted as mockery of the blm movement. The American Flag on Cinco de Mayo has zero such connotations.
And if the students actually understood the holiday they would understand Cinco de Mayo has zero to do with the Spanish American War (where there actually are grievances!) and Americans actually helpe overthrow Maximilian. So what the hell.
I'm not gung ho "cancel culture!" but if wearing the flag is deemed racist this shit has gone way to far.
So, in a movement trying to move the focus on to ignored black lives 'white lives matter' can be seen as a mockery, but in a movement trying to move the focus onto ignored Mexican heritage wearing an American flag cannot?
And, of course wearing the flag isn't racist. But in some contexts it might be.
I'm sorry, but Cinco de Mayo is not about the historical American oppression of Mexicans. Its just not. I'm Indian. I dont go around attacking people with British flags on Diwali. If the students actually then don't understand the holiday. They shouldn't attack others for their lack of understanding.
White Lives Matter directly references BLM. That is why it is disfavored. The American flag is not a direct reference to Cinco De Mayo. People can wear it for different reasons. Maybe they are patriotic. People aren't allowed to be patriotic on certain days? What the hell is that? The complaint was he wore it on Cinco de Mayo, not that he wore it to a Mexican herirage center and rubed it in peoples faces. Whereas, if I wear WLM, I am directly targeting BLM. There is a difference.
And if you can't make that distinction, then let's just forget about the distinction between WLM and BLM. I mean that is even more convoluted than between WLM / BLM and the American Flag / Cinco de Mayo.
Frankly I'm surprised your defending this. I would think reasonable liberals would see how ridiculous this is ... and if that is now solely in the preview of conservatives ... that really is a shame.
Because I do think the American Flag, Guns blazing, explosions, of say a BRCC commercial is jingoistic and ridiculous. Wearing the flag, yes on Cinco de Mayo, isnt.
"I’m sorry, but Cinco de Mayo is not about the historical American oppression of Mexicans."
So, showing up during Black History Month with a 'White History Month' t-shirt? Your thoughts?
My thought is, they can get annoyed all they like. The moment they get violent, they're thugs, who deserve no sympathy. Non-sociopathic people are capable of responding to annoyances without getting violent.
Yeah, those insurrectionists were surely thugs, I agree.
A few of them, the ones who actually got violent? Absolutely.
Were the folks in Lexington and Concord thugs? The Boston Tea Party folks?
I say this because I don't think violence automatically discredits persons.
And I don't think rioting and looting are ever righteous violence, in as much as the victims aren't the guilty.
The queen might want to look up what George Washington, Ben Franklin and John Adams said about the Boston Tea Party.
Hint: they weren't fans of it...
Again, you are referring, and criticizing directly, black history month with a white history month t-shirt.
You are not doing that with an American flag on Cinco de mayo. I dont know why that is a difficult concept to grasp. the American flag is a general expression of patriotism, not an explicit criticism of Cinco de Mayo. White History month isn't even a real thing. White Lives Matter wasn't a real thing until BLM came along. It was made up as a response. The American Flag wasn't. If White History Month was a holiday for the past century, yeah, it would be fine.
And are you implying Black history month isnt about the oppression of black people in the US?
All you are showing is that you don't understand what these symbols actually mean.
In fact, I would bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in yours that if you asked the actual Latin parents about this they would totally be in support of Bob here. Most of them. I've found that its usually students who have little understand of the holidays and symbols involved driving this stupidity.
I mean if you asked my parents, their response would be in absolute praise of Bob. Why tf do you think they came here if they don't like America? If they don't celebrate America they would not have come.
"And are you implying Black history month isnt about the oppression of black people in the US?"
This gets to the crux of the matte. No, it's about finally taking some time to recognize black history. if you show up then with a 'white history' shirt you are insulting that.
Right, its insulting because we made up "White History Month" for the sole purpose of criticizing Black History Month. If it was a thing.
No one made up the American flag to critique Mexicans. No one is even using it for that purpose, it was Cinco de Mayo. The purpose wasn't to criticize Cinco de mayo.
Which again, which you seem to keep ignoring, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AMERICA. To the extent it does, America supposed the Mexicans against the French!
Again, this only makes sense if we completely divorce the symbols from what they actually mean. Which, I mean, they you have no authority to tell other people how to interpret them.
Queen you sure get upset at the thought of whiteness -- you should find out why.
QA, Brett etc. Stop the BS about what BLM or WLM did or did not do.
Get back to the question of the OP.
Do the hecklers have a veto right that must be protected by the police?
Yea or Nay? and why?
Nay, for multiple reasons.
1) You actually do have a right to freedom of speech.
2) Violence by hecklers is a crime.
Now, while the police may not have a positive obligation to protect specific individuals from crimes, they DO have an obligation not to violate civil rights. So, while they might respond to violent hecklers trying to attack somebody for exercising their freedom of speech in a number of different ways, from calling in the riot squad, to, "You're on your own lady." and walking away, forcing Alice to shut up is not on that list.
3) Selective enforcement means the cops will only side with the hecklers when they agree with the hecklers, not when they disagree.
4) So in effect, the hecklers become the police's proxy, an excuse for suppressing speech they don't like.
Doesn't matter if they don't like it because they disagree with it, or they don't like it because it makes more work for them.
But, really, it all comes down to the first point: Freedom of speech is a civil liberty, and whatever the cops decide to do, violating a civil liberty is not among their legitimate options.
Why does the thought of white lives mattering send you and these folks into fits of rage?
And ALL lives mattering was the trigger phrase.
QA,
nice try at a duck.
Do you know anything about the case involving Cinco De Mayo and the boys wearing the American flag? I guarantee that Mexican heritage is/was not being ignored in that school.
Uh, that helps me.
Jesus, do I have to explain it?
Jesus does not need you to explain anything.
To the extent that anything needs to be explained, it's how your thought process actually processes thoughts. Inductive logic!!! You're hilarious.
"It’s kind of like wearing a ‘White Lives Matter’ shirt to a ‘Black Lives Matter’ event."
No, its a US flag, this is the US, no American should object to a picture of your country's flag.
Or are you saying the flag only belongs to one group? I'll take it but seems short sighted.
The ‘White Lives Matter’ is a troll, an unnecessary intentional provocation.
Aladdin's Carpet: "Fuck people fuck this fuck stupid fuck everything"?
Something like that, yeah
This made me chuckle. I will say however there are times where this is how I feel. Not often thankfully. On these occasions I usually just find a distraction and stay away from everything.
I'm puzzled about why the cop doesn't simply ask Alice if she has a burn permit. If she'd been burning any random trash in a public place it would be a crime, it suddenly becomes untouchable if instead it's a flag?
It doesn't, but most likely trash burning laws won't cover burning a flag as a political protest, because it isn't trash.
Generally they're not "trash burning" laws, they're just "burning" laws.
A burning law, generally applicable, can lawfully be enforced against flag burning (with a narrow exception for selective prosecution, which is very hard to prove).
Precisely why I asked why the officer, in the hypothetical, didn't just ask to see Alice's burn permit. It's like stopping somebody who's speeding in a residential area, and ticketing them for their bumper sticker, instead.
How do you know it's illegal, or that the law gets enforced enough to survive a selective prosecution claim?
Burning laws are about as common as residential speed limits. I wouldn't go so far as to say there isn't any jurisdiction anywhere without one, but they're very common.
Yes, a selective prosecution claim might be effective. But, still, why would the cop not go with the facially legitimate approach to begin with, rather than just go straight to the open civil liberties violation?
You open yourself up to the drama of being forced to issue a burn permit -- and the political mess that would entail.
They're way ahead of you, see, e.g., this post.
So....you can prosecute flag burners. Is that right Professor Volokh? So long as there is an ordinance prohibiting the burning of items without a permit?
I'm no expert on the 1A, but I've been in school. Don't make rules that require school personnel to make difficult decisions requring analysis of complex Constitutional issues. That's not what they're trained for or paid for. Decide if a particular action in the school will cause disruption? Sure, that should be part of the job description. (And the decision may well be wrong in a lot of cases anyway.) Decide if something done outside of school should be barred/punished because it may cause disruption in the school? Which one of these Constitutional law experts does the Assistant Principal of PS 89 have on speed dial?
The basic problem of this case was created by the Internet (as many modern constitutional issues are). In other words, everyone understands that in the old days, the girl doesn't make the team, hangs out with her friends after school, tells them "fuck cheer fuck school fuck everything" or whatever, and nobody complains or seeks to discipline her.
But now we have the Internet. And schools are concerned about Internet postings because everyone at school can see them and they really can cause disruption at the school. (This doesn't mean the school should have been concerned about this particular post, but in general, yes, obviously posts on social media can interfere with the educational process.)
And we have this old legal rule, devised at a time when there really was a strong on campus/off campus distinction that the Internet obliterated. What do you do?
My understanding is that the post in question was on snapchat and someone took a picture of it before it expired. What if the girl was venting to friends and someone took a video and showed that video around school?
That too was not possible until recently.
Good God I feel old. And I'm only 22!
"What do you do?"
Punish the people who are at school disrupting the educational process, Internet posts can't cause disruption if people aren't reacting to them at school.
"punish the disrupters/hecklers, not the person exercising free speech rights" is not a complex rule to follow.
YES, school personnel are paid to obey the law. And if school personnel aren't trained to follow the Constitution, that's the problem right there.
And your choice is this: If … you could choose to either tighten Tinker or you can say, well, we're going to assume Tinker is out of control on campus, but we will leave open season on schools and complete chaos as to what their test allows.
What does this mean? It sounds like gibberish to me.
Is her argument that you could tighten Tinker and apply it outside of school, or leave it as it is and restrict it to school?
Por que no los dos? Tighten it and restrict it to schools.
It seems ridiculous to me that a school could punish a student for out-of-school speech.
"It seems ridiculous to me that a school could punish a student for out-of-school speech."
A kid only knows another kid because they have to go to school together. The first kid starts bullying the second at school but extends it to outside and now it becomes a feedback loop (the second kid gets bullied in reference to out of school events precipitated by in school events). Etc.
And the obvious solution (or at least it was obvious until a few short decades ago) was that the school could punish and prohibit the in-school bullying and the parents were responsible for contacting either the bully's parents or the police to address the out-of-school bullying. Notably, the feedback works both ways. Stop the out-of-school bullying and the in-school bullying will almost always stop, too.
"Stop the out-of-school bullying and the in-school bullying will almost always stop, too."
Uh, yeah, my point as to why the schools care about out of school bullying...
And your point about why they aggressively care about out of school non-bullying would be?
Uh, " Stop the out-of-school bullying and the in-school bullying will almost always stop, too."
Yes, and I was asking why they're so aggressive about caring about out of school non-bullying, too.
I care about out of school bullying too, but I’m not going to try to punish some random kid for it.
Uh, neither do I.
Which may be why they should care but no justification for granting them the authority to do anything about it. That's the parents' responsibility. Or if the parents won't step in, Child Protective Services. Schools are unqualified to address out-of-school bullying.
"Stop the out-of-school bullying and the in-school bullying will almost always stop, too."
"Which may be why they should care but no justification for granting them the authority to do anything about it."
It's wrecking their mission but there's no justification for them being able to do anything about it!
A whole world of things may 'wreck their mission' without thereby falling under their jurisdiction.
Malnutrition wrecks their mission but schools do not get unilateral authority over national agriculture policy thereby.
Poverty wrecks their mission but schools do not get authority to unilaterally create economic or monetary policy.
Lack of funding wrecks their mission but schools have to go through the same tax levy approval process as everyone else - and suck it up when voters reject the request.
Parental drug use wrecks their mission far more than mere bullying but schools do not get to punish the parents.
Your 'ends justify the means' philosophy is totalitarian and offensive to the principles of freedom.
You know bernard11, I wonder about that. Meaning, is there a scenario that the principles Tinker would apply outside of school, and not even to students (i.e. maybe their parents, or an invited speaker). I'd think about that.
But I am totally with you = It seems ridiculous to me that a school could punish a student for out-of-school speech.
" It seems ridiculous to me that a school could punish a student for out-of-school speech."
But C_XY, that is a basic premise of the nanny state.
One that I reject = that is a basic premise of the nanny state
Tbh, there are parallels to the campaign disclosure case here. Like liberals loved Tinker and NAACP vs. Alabama, until ... wait non-progressives can speak too? Holy shit! Those cases must be limited their facts.
Everyone's a hypocrite here. Why no one can't just support speech when both liberals in Tinker and conservatives here support it is honestly beyond me. I guess its just me then?
Maybe don't generalize about liberals based on the one commenter here.
Fair. I suppose overgeneralizing about liberals and conservatives is an unfortunate symptom of reading people on an internet forum. The ones I know in real life are lovely.
Yeah, I'm the only Dem in my D&D group; helps keep perspective on the common objects we share.
Sarc, favorite race/class? I started playing with my son a couple years ago. My first char (for adventure league stuff) was a human ranger (simple), and in my son's Curse of Strahd campaign I'm a hawk-headed aven blood hunter that rolled minimum hit points on level up 6 out of 7 times so she is really a glass cannon.
The one thing I've been wondering is why the speech at issue here isn't unprotected under Pacifica. Why rely on Tinker in the first place?
Martinned: Can you elaborate on Pacifica? The Court has made clear that Pacifica only applies to over-the-air TV and radio broadcasting, which has historically been treated as less protected. Indeed, it expressly refused to extend Pacifica to the Internet in Reno v. ACLU.
Sorry, I was typing on my phone. The reference to Pacifica was simply meant to refer to the principle that obscenities are not consitutionally protected. (Which is, admittedly, a significant simplification of the holding in that case.)
There is no "principle that obscenities are not constitutionally protected." Cohen v. California ("One man's obscenity is another man's lyric") is still good law.
Tinker is just another Warren Court mistake, the "history of public education suggests that the First Amendment, as originally understood, does not protect student speech in public schools". Thomas, Bong Hits for Jesus
Tinker only came out because of the side the protest was on. A pro war t shirt wearer would have lost.
Honestly, I can't accept that. Bong hit for Jesus is probably the stupidest case ...
Let me translate all the above lawyer bullshit. Protect and empower the Commies who want to destroy our nation. Meanwhile, conservatives, such as Praeger U are expelled from YouTube without so much as scumbag lawyer comment, let alone hand wringing. So we know this is all Commie masking ideology, and bullshit.
Remedy? Patriots drive their 1986 Camaros to the house of Soros. Kick his ass. He is the paymaster for BLM and for Antifa. If he does not leave our country, the next visit will be his last. Do the same for all disloyal judges. What is not appreciated is that the courageous judges of the South had to run for their lives out of their states in the 1960's. Good model.
https://youtube.com/c/prageruniversity
Don't overstate your case.
Also, blatant anti-semitism isn't helpful.
Dennis Praeger is jewish too. So about even on the pro/anti semitism there.
All Commies and their lawyers get cancelled.
Volokh censored my reply and emailed me a racist threat.
Here is the story, Democrat d-word.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/first-amendment-doesnt-apply-on-youtube-judges-reject-prageru-lawsuit/
Does it have to be an '86?
Yes, because that is a $500 car.
If we look at the base of the issue, the hecklers veto effectively allows the commission of a crime against another, but because it is easier to 'punish' the other than it is to stop or punish the hecklers it is acceptable to punish someone who hasn't committed any crime?
Isn't this basically teaching hecklers that all they have to do is disrupt school over anything they don't like from someone and not only will they not be punished, the person they targeted WILL be punished? This encourages cliques in school to target individuals they want to shut down in every way by acting out.
This is effectively legalized and sanctioned bullying. Easy enough to reproduce once the cliques figure it out.
The hecklers are employees of Soros. He has $15 an hour ads on Craig's List. Antifa and BLM are unemployed, desperate loser America haters. It makes no sense to kick Antifa ass.
If wearing an American flag t-shirt can cause disruption at a school on May 5, the anniversary of the battle of Puebla then it is riddled with incompetent teachers. Even wearing a French flag t-shirt would only symbolize the losing team. A heckler's veto is a political tool that can be manipulated. Court's should also be cognizant of reality not manufactured "crises." A student who is triggered by an American flag t-shirt on May 5th should be sent to detention with a history book.
Doesn't Bong Hits 4 Jesus factor in here? If not, why not?
To novice ears, Breyer's reading of Tinker seemed to be the event of the argument -- that disruption might be a necessary but not sufficient justification for the regulation of student speech. Especially as the Court has apparently never interpreted the doctrine, perhaps from a dearth of black arm-bands on the nation's playgrounds. He seemed to pull back from that later in the discussion though, not wanting to "write a treatise."
And I honestly thought that counsel for Petitioner was local counsel for the schools. Combative, school-marmish, and consistently at sixes and sevens on the finer points of the doctrines.
Just the view from the friendly neighborhood Cocoa Hut.
Mr. D.
Relevant Breyer Page at 12, et seq.:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2020/20-255_1p24.pdf
Mr. D.