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Lessons of the Legal and Political Struggle for Same-Sex Marriage
Drawn from William Eskridge and Christopher Riano's comprehensive new book on the subject.
One of the very few positive aspects of the awful Covid pandemic is the opportunity to have big-name "virtual" guest-speakers in college and law school classes. Tomorrow's guest speaker in my Constitutional Law II class will be Prof. William Eskridge, of Yale Law School, probably the nation's leading expert on the law and politics of same-sex marriage. He will be speaking about his recent book Marriage Equality: From Outlaws to In-Laws (coauthored with Christopher Riano). It is the closest thing we have to a definitive comprehensive account of how same-sex marriage went from being a radical fringe idea to a recognized constitutional right endorsed by a Supreme Court decision.
A brief anecdote illustrates how swift that transformation was. In 1992, when I was a college freshman, a gay classmate I will refer to as "Bob" asked me what rights I thought gays and lesbians should have. "The same rights as everyone else," I answered.
Perhaps sensing an effort at evasion, Bob pressed on and asked what exactly I meant by that. I said it meant anti-sodomy laws should be abolished (many states still had them), that gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military (a hotly debated issue at the time, culminating in the "don't ask, don't tell" compromise of 1993), and a few other similar points.
It did not occur to me to mention same-sex marriage - an idea I probably hadn't even heard of yet. Perhaps more tellingly, it apparently didn't occur to Bob to ask about it! He seemed happy with the answer I gave, even though it omitted the issue. In 1992, even many politically aware people (including, probably, a good many gays and lesbians) barely knew that same-sex marriage was even an option.
As Eskridge and Riano document in their book, the idea of same-sex marriage long predated that time. But few Americans were aware of it, beyond the relatively narrow circle of activists and policy experts who closely followed gay rights issues.
Within a few years, that changed. By 1995, same-sex marriage was a major focus of public debate, though majority public opinion was strongly opposed to it. I myself was happy to endorse same-sex marriage as soon as I heard of the concept (probably around 1994 or so). But that was very much a minority view at the time.
While a few state supreme courts ruled in favor of a right to same-sex marriage under their state constitutions, majority national opinion remained opposed up until around 2012. Even such liberal politicians as Barack Obama found it advantageous to oppose it themselves, or at least pretend to do so.
Yet public opinion ultimately shifted decisively in favor of same-sex marriage, and in Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), the Supreme Court ruled that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional. That happened only a little more than two decades after my little discussion with Bob.
What caused this dramatic transformation? If you want to know the answer, read Eskridge and Riano's book! It may well be, however, that we are still too close in time to these events to get proper historical perspective on them. Legal scholars, historians, and social scientists will likely debate their implications for many years to come.
For now, I would like to mention two key lessons that - at least to my mind - permeate Marriage Equality.
First, legal and political action are mutually reinforcing strategies for achieving constitutional reform. Again and again, Eskridge and Riano describe how victories in court set the stage for wins in the political arena, and vice versa.
Early pro-same-sex marriage decisions in state courts, such as the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruling in Goodridge v. Department of Public Health (2003) were made possible by the (partial) success of the gay rights movement's efforts to shift public opinion about gays and lesbians generally. Those rulings, in turn, gave a further boost to the gay rights movement, and helped pave the way for further shifts in public opinion, and further favorable judicial rulings - eventually culminating in Obergefell. The "normalization" of same-sex marriage required a combination of legal and political action, not an exclusive focus on one or the other. Far from being mutually exclusive, as some scholars argue, these two strategies were mutually reinforcing.
Eskridge and Riano are not the first scholars to chronicle such a process. Earlier writers found similar patterns in the civil rights movements, the women's rights movement, the gun rights movement, and others. I myself have written about it in the context of the struggle to strengthen constitutional protection for property rights. But Marriage Equality is a particularly thorough and insightful account of how that synergy worked in one of the most high-profile constitutional movements of our time.
The second lesson is that the same-sex marriage movement did not triumph by advocating the importance of validating a distinct LGBT cultural identity, but rather by emphasizing how same-sex marriage is fundamentally similar to opposite-sex marriage; and gays and lesbians, more generally, are fundamentally similar to heterosexuals.
As an Iowa Supreme Court ruling quoted by Eskridge and Riano put it, the plaintiffs in the case were "in committed and loving relationships, many raising families, just like heterosexual couples." Similar statements abound throughout Marriage Equality. Ultimately, the same-sex marriage movement triumphed by focusing on universal principles of liberty, justice, and equality, rather than on a distinctive group identity.
This, too, is far from unique to the struggle for same-sex marriage. We see the same pattern in the success of the antislavery movement, and movements for racial and gender equality. Elsewhere, I have argued that a similar strategy should be adopted by advocates of free international migration regardless of morally arbitrary circumstances of parentage and place of birth.
It is no accident that the antislavery movement's most famous and successful image was this 1787 Josiah Wedgewood image of a black slave, asking "Am I not a man and a brother?"
Wedegwood drove home the point that there is no morally significant distinction between blacks and whites, and thus no good reason to deny the former the same liberty as that claimed by the latter.
Similarly, the same-sex marriage movement (and the gay rights movement generally) emphasized how gays and lesbians are also our brothers and sisters (sometimes literally so!), and that differences in sexual orientation are ultimately superficial in nature. Thus, there is no good reason to deny gays and lesbians the same rights for their relationships as those claimed for heterosexual ones.
This lesson may seem blatantly obvious. But it is deeply at odds with the positions of many identity politics movements on both the "woke" left, and the nationalist/identitarian right, which focus on the supposed uniqueness and incommensurability of different ethnic, racial, cultural, and religious groups.
Much more can be learned from Eskridge and Riano's excellent book. For a sampling of some of the other issues it raises, see this recent symposium about it at the Balkinization site.
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"Yet public opinion ultimately shifted decisively in favor of same-sex marriage, and in Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), the Supreme Court ruled that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional."
You make it sound as though the judiciary merely endorsed a position the public had already adopted. As I recall, it actually happened in this order:
1: The judiciary were swept by a fad of mandating that SSM be legal.
2: The public desperately opposed the judiciary with laws, ballot initiatives, and state constitutional amendments.
3: The judiciary steamrollered right over this popular opposition.
4: The public started to become resigned to the fact that what they thought about it didn't matter, and realized that protesting too loudly might be dangerous.
5: And then the Supreme court delivered the final blow with Obergefel.
"The judiciary were swept by a fad of mandating that SSM be legal."
A fad in Washington, DC, not anywhere else. That is the most homosexual town, counting whites, in the US, more degenerate and gayer than San Fran. I went to their dinner parties.
Wrong. It started in the Netherlands.
In the US, it was at first a state court fad, then moved to the federal circuit courts when the state judiciary realized that grounding the 'right' in state constitutions was vulnerable to state constitutional amendments.
DC was the last place it hit, not the first.
Were there seminars on homosexual marriage in Holland in the 1970's as there were in the US?
No idea, I'm just observing where the legal action started.
Justice Kennedy gave America Trump by taking SSM off the table in 2016...that is why Democrats weren’t energized and allowed Trump to win in a fluke election.
That Kennedy guy sounds like quite the crafty fellow!
Brett : "The public started to become resigned to the fact that what they thought about it didn’t matter, and realized that protesting too loudly might be dangerous"
Do you even believe your own bullshit ?!? Yes, there were a great deal of referenda opposing gay marriage 10-20 years before Obergefell, but by the time SCOTUS heard the case public support for marriage equality was at 64% in the (13) states where it was already legal, at 54% in the remaining states where it wasn't. Do you really think all that support was from people afraid of reprisals?!?
You really need to give up the non-factual purple-prose conspiracy nonsense every time you're on the unpopular side on an issue. A solid majority of people decided it was ugly, stupid and pointless to deny gay couples the right to marry. Conspiracies or oppression didn't cause them to reach that conclusion, just common sense and decency. Everybody knows someone gay; most people know someone personally. They just started asking themselves, why not?
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/america-is-ready-for-gay-marriage/391643/
"A solid majority of people decided it was ugly, stupid and pointless to deny gay couples the right to marry"
Then why weren't laws passed to simply make it so? That's how Democracy is supposed to work.
Why "use" the courts to "find" a right?
You might ask those same questions about Heller and McDonald. But, I doubt that you will.
“You might ask those same questions about Heller and McDonald.”
Only the illiterate or most obtuse troll could suggest that the manifestly plain text of the Constitution has any connection whatsoever with the mostly 20th century phenomenon of unelected judges “finding” rights based upon their personal policy preferences.
But this is social media, and any idiot can post.
The point of Stella's question is not what the Constitution says. Rather, it's why it's why popular laws can't seem to get passed. And it's a legitimate question.
Perhaps they aren't actually that popular in truth.
In fact, concealed carry reform has been sweeping the nation, democratically achieved, so it's hardly as though Heller was in defiance of public opinion.
Multiple states amended their state constitutions in an effort to head off the SSM drive. How many amended their state constitutions to remove RKBA provisions?
None, in fact. The trend has been in the opposite direction.
That's the difference between the courts acknowledging an enumerated right due to genuine societal pressure, and the courts inventing a right in the teeth of such pressure.
Oh I don't know. Single payer health care has something like 60% support and it can't get off the ground.
That's the old "free pony" vs "real horse" problem. Lots of things look like they have support if you ask about them in isolation, then the support vanishes as soon as the details show up.
Always depends on the wording...
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268985/americans-favor-private-healthcare-system.aspx?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=the_health_202&wpisrc=nl_health202&wpmm=1
The point is, though, that whether there are the votes to get something past a legislature often has little to do with how popular it is. And if we have an anti-democratic institution such as two senators per state, it has even less to do with whether something is popular.
"an anti-democratic institution "
That was the entire reason for the Senate and it persists in other countries besides the US
Right, but you can't have it both ways. You can't BOTH criticize for not using the democratic process, AND ALSO say that by the way, we don't have a democratic process. If the right is entitled to use anti-democratic institutions, so is the left.
K_2,
I agree that you cannot have it both ways.
I'm not the one who's trying to have it both ways.
Re Krycheck,
If a program actually has broad popular support, over a broad geographic area, then yes it can and does get passed. Typically by large majorities.
The Senate simply acts as a check and balance to ensure that broad popular support. The founders, in their wisdom, realized that a 50% + 1 vote on anything and everything could lead to massive abuses of government and tyranny. True "democracy" would allow for the 10 most populous states to enslave the citizens of the other 40 states with a simple vote.
The founders realized that wasn't a good idea. So, checks and balances.
I'm fine with judges finding new unenumerated rights that were not considered rights way back when.
I'm not fine with judges finding new unenumerated powers.
One is in line with the reasons for constitutional design: government has no power unless explicetly granted such.
The other not only is not, but in strict defiance of that principle. If The People think it wise to authorize government a new power blabbered to them by a charismatic demagogue, they can go through the amendment process, and, if they deem it wise, explicitely grant the government that new power not historically considered valid for it.
New unenumerated rights are not a failure to secure an amendment, and are not a danger of a government growing out of control. New unenumerated powers are a danger and symptom of government growing out of control without approval by their deliberately laborious amendment process, designed to kick charismatics, skilled at blowing the blowing winds of political passion, right in the nuts.
The point is that before Heller, nobody knew that the firearms laws in DC were unconstitutional. Lots of people claimed they were and lots claimed they weren't. After Heller, nobody knew that the 14th amendment applied the 2d amendment to the states. Until McDonald found the incorporation in 2010, some 140 odd years following the amendment's passing. I've looked at the 14th amendment and the 2d is not clearly applied to the states. But, it's the law now. Now you have ignorant wankers on the internet saying that the 2d amendment is even more expansive than the SC has recognized and some courts are going along with it.
"The point is that before Heller, nobody knew that the firearms laws in DC were unconstitutional."
I know that total legal realists take that, "Nobody knows what any part of the Constitution means until the Supreme court rules on what it means!" stance, but, really, why be a total legal realist?
No, people knew DC's gun laws were unconstitutional, it was pretty blatant. What we didn't know was if the Supreme court would care to admit it.
No, Brett. People actually legit disagreed with your Constitutional take in good faith.
You never seem to understand that your confidence isn't the same as accuracy, nor is it universal.
Ok, Smart Guy, which decision is supported by the language of the constituion: Bowers v Hardwick or Lawrence v Texas? Show your work.
Or, how did you know that the DC gun laws were in violation of the 2d amendment when US v Miller had been in place for over 60 years?
As for references to concealed carry law, did either Heller or McDonald establish a 2d amendment right for CC? Could be, I've not read either for a while and can't recall for certain. But you, as an authority on all constitutional 2d issues should have the answer at hand -- which would explaina lot.
The state has a long history of trying to limit the power of the people. That's why the 2nd amendment was passed in the first place.
Well, yes, that's an interesting question about why liberal social policies with popular support have to go such routes.
There's a long record of polls showing support for gun control ballot initiatives, which then go on to be defeated when people actually vote on them. It's almost as though pollsters aren't reliable on some topics.
It's possible other factors are at play, given Republican devotion to voter suppression.
You know that Georgia's new law still has voting easier in Georgia than New York, right? So why aren't you complaining about Democratic voter suppression in NY?
Why aren't you? Because you looooove voter suppression, that's why.
Because I don't stupidly call minor inconveniences "voter suppression".
No, you call voter suppression 'minor inconveniences.'
It's funny to see right-wing snowflakes whine criticisms of the Georgia law are exaggerated, unfair or political. Given the fig leaf of "election security" behind this crusade of voter harassment is a total fraud, who are trying to kid?
Apparently they think their side deserves a special "safe space". They can run a wholly political campaign aimed at (a) cobbling together whatever measures they can get away with to make voting harder, and (b) appeasing Trump supporters stupid enough to believe his election fraud lies - but the other side must pretend their justifications are sincere & truthful. It's so unfair if they don't.
Or Democrats must accept yet another harassment package to help butthurt Trump supporters recover a better "perception" on elections. The perception from the Left that this is only more voter suppression doesn't seem to count, even though it's a damn-sight more truthful than anything from the Right.
Right-types calling reaction to the Georgia law political or dishonest? Matthew 7:5 :
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Nige,
You did not answer the question. a popular but ineffective debating trick.
If NY state's voting laws are overly restrictive, they should be reformed. If NY has been deliberately making voting for certain groups of people more difficult in hopes of suppressing that vot, they should be called out for it. Probably the main difference is the history in NY vs Georgia.
In Harris County, TX the 2020 election was run as freely as it's ever been, as far as I can tell. Despite the efforts of state level Republicans and local crackpots, cretins, criminals and clowns, we had nice long early voting, more polling places, during early voting and same day voting, than ever before. Some early voting places were open 24 hours on some days. There was "drive through" voting. All these things facilitated voting by as many legally qualified voters as might be possible here in Texas and despite the whining of the Republicans and other Trump Suckers, nobody has been able to find any significant irregularities. Unless, of course, a former high level police officer claiming to be a private detective stopping an AC service truck at gun point because he wrongly believed the truck to be carrying illegal ballots.
The Republicans in Texas are scared because of the turnout of people whom they disagree with and are doing what they can to turn the tide back. Our county judge called their efforts an attempt to go back to Jim Crow. Our Lt Gov, a guy named Dan Goab who calls himself Dan Patrick, most famous for complaining that covid 19 was killing an insufficient number of senior citizens responded with an unhinged racist tinted rant. I hope Lina runs against him and sends the dullard back to talk radio where he can go bankrupt again.
Because dumb bait is dumb.
"Why “use” the courts to “find” a right?"
The US keeps doing this. I'm a believer in primary legislation rather than legislation by the judiciary, but it doesn't appear to be possible in the US even when there's a solid majority. The reasons why don't seem to be simple.
(FWIW, my personal opinion is that governments have no business certifying people's cohabitation arrangements, and that we should have abolished government recognition of 'marriage', rather than expanding it. But hey-ho, this way isn't worse than not expanding or abolishing it.)
There's a distinct problem in the US: We've developed an entrenched and self-perpetuating political class, who are mostly successful at keeping anybody but themselves from reaching anything but local office.
Laws that aren't popular with them won't get passed even if they're popular with the public. Or if enacted, will be systematically unenforced.
But, given that SSM repeatedly was rejected by ballot initiatives, the idea that legislatures failing to enact it was a democratic failure is dubious. More likely any polls showing majority support were just inaccurate.
Brett Bellmore : "...the idea that legislatures failing to enact it was a democratic failure is dubious."
But not as dubious as your claim the solid-majority popular support for marriage equality is an illusion - or resulted from oppressed peoples being forced into the belief by some ominous leftist cabal.
That's not just "dubious" - that's pathetic & ludicrous fantasy.......
Then why weren’t laws passed to simply make it so? That’s how Democracy is supposed to work.
And we all know how legislatures perfectly reflect the will of the people, especially when it comes to defending the rights of an unpopular minority.
Why “use” the courts to “find” a right?
WTF are you talking about?
If SSM is a right - and it is - there is nothing wrong with taking the matter to court, regardless of what a state legislature will or won't do.
You've got to keep the argument in context.
If the argument is...“A solid majority of people decided it was ugly, stupid and pointless to deny gay couples the right to marry”
Then arguing... "And we all know how legislatures perfectly reflect the will of the people, especially when it comes to defending the rights of an unpopular minority."
Doesn't make any sense.
You can't simultaneously argue both sides.
public support for marriage equality was at 64% in the (13) states where it was already legal, at 54% in the remaining states where it wasn’t.
As a judge that would be a huge red flag to ignore all the homosexual marriage business and allow "the people" to exercise their enumerated power.
You're not contradicting me: The courts imposed SSM, THEN public opinion shifted.
You can say it shifted legitimately, I say it was mere resignation after having it beaten into us that our opinions really didn't matter, and the first indications that public opposition could be professionally dangerous.
"A solid majority of people decided it was ugly, stupid and pointless to deny gay couples the right to marry." But only after the courts had beaten into them the realization that they wouldn't be PERMITTED to deny it, that voting was no longer going to be allowed to work on this issue.
I wouldn't be so pissed if this had been decided democratically. But it wasn't. The judiciary were swept by a fad, and decided that they weren't going to let public opinion stand in their way, and just steam rollered all opposition.
And it terrifies me to think what the next fad will be, now that they've felt that power.
The courts imposed SSM,
No. They didn't "impose" it. No one was forced into a same-sex marriage. They allowed it. Big difference.
What is it with all you self-described lovers of liberty? Why are you so offended by SSM? It doesn't affect you.
He explained it. It's not about SSM. It's about government by judiciary.
It's about begging the question.
Brett only cares about democracy if it's a federal judge telling the legislature it can't mistreat people just because they're unpopular. If the subject is anti-democratic institutions like the electoral college or two senators per state, then Brett is just fine with telling democracy to go to hell.
The "anti-democratic institutions" are meat to be molasses in a system than can run amok. As with many aspects of the American constitutional and legal institutions, they are imposed balancing tests.
Actually we all are lucky that the Orange Clown was such a mean-spirited bumbler. Were he not his popularity could have match other modern, flawed presidents. He'd be in office still with a two house majority and you'd be signing a different tune.
Actually, no. If not for the anti-democratic electoral college, the Orange Clown never would have been president in the first place.
And I do understand the concept of checks and balances, but look at how they've turned out. Congress can't even pass a budget. It's given us a worst of all possible worlds situation in which we get the worst aspects of conservatism coupled with the worst aspects of liberalism, since neither side can actually make anything happen.
"look at how they’ve turned out. Congress can’t even pass a budget."
I agree that is a disgrace, but it is die to parochial self-interests, greed and lack of courage to own decisions by the members
Yes, it is due to all those things. And it would be fixable by having a British style parliamentary democracy. Whoever wins the election gets to keep his promises, and if the voters don't like the results, they can elect someone else next time.
He also thinks every single dumbass lawsuit trying to destroy the ACA, which was democratically passed, has popular support, and was democratically unable to be repealed, is totally cool.
"The public desperately opposed the judiciary with laws, ballot initiatives, and state constitutional amendments."
Depends on where you lived.
When supporters of same-sex marriage put the issue on the ballot in Maine, it marked the first attempt to legalize same-sex marriage in a popular referendum. It was approved by voters in the November 2012 elections.
After the state legislatures in Washington and Maryland voted in favor of same-sex marriage, the laws were blocked from taking effect until state voters were given an opportunity to decide the matter in ballot initiatives. The issue went to voters in November 2012 and in both states voters sided with legalizing same-sex marriage.
Let's not forget states where the legislatures (not the courts) passed laws to create marriage equality. In order of passage, it was NH, DC, NY, RI, DE and MN.
This is hardly the case of liberal courts running roughshod over the people.
I never denied that it was legalized legislatively in some states, late in the process, once it was clear the courts weren't going to permit any other outcome anyway. In some of these states it was only after the judiciary had told them to do it. For instance, in Massachusetts, the state supreme court ruled SSM legal, but stayed the ruling to give the legislature 100 days to legalize it themselves.
So, yeah, the legislature passed it, with a legislative gun to their heads.
And a few states had legal abortion when Roe made it into a 'constitutional right', too.
But the fact remains that SSM was defeated democratically in almost all the states that addressed it, and then imposed their judicially.
"The public desperately opposed the judiciary with laws, ballot initiatives, and state constitutional amendments."
Depends on where you lived.
When supporters of same-sex marriage put the issue on the ballot in Maine, it marked the first attempt to legalize same-sex marriage in a popular referendum. It was approved by voters in the November 2012 elections.
After the state legislatures in Washington and Maryland voted in favor of same-sex marriage, the laws were blocked from taking effect until state voters were given an opportunity to decide the matter in ballot initiatives. The issue went to voters in November 2012 and in both states voters sided with legalizing same-sex marriage.
And let's not forget the states that approved marriage equality through their legislatures. In chronological order, it was VT, NH, DC, NY, RI, DE and MN.
This is hardly the case of liberal courts running roughshod over the people. Your memory is selective.
"Resigned." How are you so incapable of realizing that other people have empathy and care about the happiness and well-being of others not like them?
Seeing as you repeatedly and consistently blame Obergefell for Elane Photography, it's no surprise that your recall is wrong.
I think the real lesson here is, if you can win over the judiciary, and enough legislators to prevent a federal constitutional amendment, nobody else matters.
Maybe resignation will eventually turn into support, especially if you can persuade social media to start censoring your opponents.
No, I don't think they have won yet.
A lot of this had to do with spouse benefits for state pensions and we'll see how willing people are willing to pay the additional taxes that this will cost in about 5-10 years...
I'm not convinced they've won yet...
Iirc, over 40% of property taxes in Illinois go to pensions!?! The federal government should take those over and going forward everyone should get a 401k and that solves that problem. So states like Arizona and Florida benefit from Illinois’ generous pensions because people from Illinois retire to those states to live on their pensions...so those people no longer pay taxes in Illinois and contribute to FL and AZ growing tax base.
"Iirc, over 40% of property taxes in Illinois go to pensions!?!"
All the more reason the thousands of immigrants are nneded in the US.
But they would have to live in Chicago. But if we want more young people moving to the Midwest to start families then reducing property taxes makes homes more affordable.
Cook County pensions do have to be paid by Chicago, but their structure is driven by several decade of sweetheart deals between unions and the Cook County D machine.
For the federal government to pick up the tab they would have to take a “haircut”.
Or Chicago would have to institute a city income tax on non-residents
That seems high.
Property taxes are county, not state. Schools, roads and bridges, mental health, There's not much left for pensions, pensions for county employees
"...mental health..."
gets the very short end of the stick in most states.
They've won.
The key point here is that judicial usurpation takes a system where constitutional changes are intentionally hard to accomplish, can be blocked by sizeable minorities, and converts it into a system where constitutional stability is hard to protect, and usurpations only require a sizeable minority supporting them to be untouchable.
And once the judiciary have created a new right, even judges who weren't party to the usurpation will think about reliance interests, and refuse to undo it.
We might reclaim the judiciary, but we won't get the prior state back, that would be the work of generations. And probably the first step would be taking marriage away from government entirely.
I think Americans are coming to realize how insane it is to sign a civil document that subjects them to divorce law drafted by imbeciles in state legislatures.
"They’ve won. "
You bet your life that they have.
Read Marshall's opinion -- while poorly written, her argument is that Massachusetts no longer considers marriage to have anything to do with children or who's responsible for them, and hence I think we should abolish marriage.
Read the dissents, a few are quite priceless. "Human sexual intercourse actually can -- and often does result in pregnancy..."
Supporters of same sex marriage have won, in no small part because the litany of horribles that the Chicken Littles predicted would accompany ssm has not come to pass.
Destruction of the American family, rejection by homosexuals, forcing children to live in orgy houses.
You mean, like florists and bakers being forced to assist? Adoption agencies being forced to place children with gay couples?
I think a lot of it did happen, and is happening.
Not exactly the end of western civilsation.
I don't recall anybody predicting that it would result in the immediate end of western civilization.
Meanwhile, in another part of the thread:
'The drive to recognize same sex marriage was part of the same Granmci and Cloward-Piven inspired destruction of Western society...'
I said, "immediate".
Yes, your bet was hedged.
Yeah, but you recall 2015 happening before 2006, so it's no surprise you don't recall what the anti-gay crusaders were saying throughout the 2000s.
Sodomy lessons for second graders come to mind...
Ed,
Are you bemoaning your lack of such early training.
I must admit that when my then young kids asked my wife about gays, that is what she told them
Ah, the keen legal mind of one Brett Bellmore, who remains convinced, to this day, that Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) was such a powerful legal decision it went back in time to 2003 and got New Mexico's legislature to pass a non-discrimination law, which was then the basis for suing Elane Photograph in 2006.
Alternatively, the keen legal mind of one Brett Bellmore is fundamentally confused on the difference between non-discrimination law and marriage law, and the flow of time.
You are the Black Knight in the Monty Python movie.
You actually think that people are suddenly going to oppose same-sex marriage in 15 years because of the possibility of a negligible rise in taxes due to additional spousal benefits?
Even assuming your tax raise theory is accurate (I'm dubious) you would have to assume that people overall are so deeply selfish and mean that they would vote to take away the marriages of their families, friends, coworkers, and people they don't know to save a few bucks. Newsflash: they're not. Most people are not that awful.
"because of the possibility of a negligible rise in taxes due to additional spousal benefits?"
That ship has sailed. The benefits will be paid (if any benefits at all can be afforded).
The world continues to conspire against Brett.
Yes, Brett.
Live with it.
Brett, this is literally how our Republic was designed. A genius mix of populism and elitism, and you railing against one of the elitist bulwarks against tyranny of the majority is pretty rich, given recent SCOTUS activism.
It's also rich that he's railing against procedure when he takes the exact opposite view on the election litigation and standing generally.
It is literally the opposite of how our Republic was designed. Constitutional changes were deliberately intended to be difficult, to require sustained consensus in favor of them.
This one was imposed from above by the judiciary, creating an inverted situation where retaining the original meaning required the difficult consensus.
Judicial usupation converts a system designed to be stable into a system where maintaining the status quo is the hardest thing.
"imposed from above by the judiciary, creating an inverted situation"
Had such gross inequities for same sex partners not existed, then the imposition from above would have bee far less likely. However, occasionally the Justices are asked to administer justice.
You can beg the question on originalism all you want, but institutionally things are in fact functioning as intended.
Nothing the lawyer ever says will change reality. This is a friendship, not a marriage. This was a Family Law scheme to revive a failing business, as the lawyer destroyed the American family. If you hate homosexuals, you want to go after their assets for lawyer enrichment. Homosexuals are smarter and richer than average. Almost none have fallen for this dipshit lawyer trap. It is not an adoption delay, it is around the world, where homosexual marriage has been legal far longer.
From Slate, a Marxist propaganda rag: Some dismissed marriage as a bourgeois, exclusionary institution, an ill-advised shackling of their hard-won sexual freedoms. For them, the wish to be able to marry signaled conformity to a heterosexual culture that had spurned them and had little to offer. For many lesbians, marriage was seen as patriarchal and oppressive to women; they saw little reason to embrace an institution that not long before had rendered women the property of men. For still others, marriage meant an abandonment of the push for an alternative social vision that broadened the definition of family beyond the conjugal pair, an alternative that had sustained many in the face of societal exclusion.
Getting married without bulletproof prenup is extremely stupid unless you have no money and no prospects to make money. Also hetero weddings are the gayest events in America and I thank Jesus every day that I will never have to attend another one. Congratulations to the LGBTQ community on getting access to a dying institution that involves an expensive and dumb party. 😉
You do know that the two women who sued to get married in MA have since gotten divorced....
So, 50% of hetero couples also divorce at least once
Not exactly. More like 30%. It's just that the people who do divorce are likely to keep doing it over and over.
So, the first time you marry, you're likely to stay married.
So what?
Your anecdote is meaningless, which I suppose makes it more worthwhile than most of your comments, but still useless.
Good points. Only a suicidal drunken person would get married if productive. I used to think the lawyer went after the male, until I spoke to a female doctor about her nightmare. The lawyer goes after the party with the money. It is dying because the lawyer plundered it. It destroyed it to replace the patriarchal family with big government run by lawyers.
I bet Ilya has a patriarchal family for his children. That is the best for children, and that is the purpose of marriage. Ilya supports upbringing by alternatives for other kids.
Trump and Melania reject the nuclear family and so Melania’s parents helped Melania raise her son...and it worked out for Trump because he had more time to watch Fox News and Tweet. 😉
"Getting married without bulletproof prenup is extremely stupid unless you have no money and no prospects to make money."
Or unless you aren't an arsehole who's impossible to live with, and don't have any realistic prospect of an acrimonious divorce just down the road...
Sometimes you're just naive, and end up marrying a women who only wanted somebody to unload her credit card debt on, and divorces you as soon as you refinance your house to pay it off.
Yeah, a prenup would have saved me a world of pain, she'd probably have called it off.
"Getting married without bulletproof prenup is extremely stupid unless you have no money and no prospects to make money."
That is 90% (or more) of Americans.
Quite a few more than 10% of Americans have assets they can lose to a divorce.
But are those assets relatively trivial when compared to what the other partner brings to the marriage?
What are actual statistics?
"This is a friendship, not a marriage."
David,
You obviously know little about marriage and even less about friendship.
"the Massachusetts' Supreme Judicial Court ruling in Goodridge v. Department of Public Health (2003) were made possible by the (partial) success of the gay rights movement's efforts to shift public opinion about gays and lesbians generally."
NO!
Margaret Marshall was many things but stupid was not one, and she stayed her decision in hopes that the gay mafia could bully a gay marriage through the legislature. It couldn't.
Mitt Romney sold us out because what he should have done was simply say that Massachusetts will no longer issue marriage licenses -- to anyone. No part of Massachusetts is more than a half hour from another state, and let people get married in NH, VT, NY, CT, or RI instead.
And then while gay marriage really didn't have anything to do with K-12 education, the Never Educate Anyone folks bullied the legislature into not doing their jobs, refusing to permit this to go to referendum, as the MA constitution required.
Attitudes didn't change -- just a lot of us stopped believing in the legitimacy of the Brave New People's Republic of Taxachusetts and the mASSgop...
Massachusetts no longer has fathers and mothers -- it now has "Parent A" and "Parent B" -- and Willard M. Romney did that on his own...
And why does that bother you?
Kids still call parents mommy and daddy.
"made possible by the (partial) success of the gay rights movement’s efforts to shift public opinion about gays and lesbians generally.”
Which basically just means, "The public were outraged and opposed it, but weren't quite outraged enough to descend on the judge's court with pitchforks and torches, so the judge didn't have to care."
Yet...
The left's hysteria about January 6th is starting to make me ask what they know that I don't....
The left's hysteria about January 6th is mostly about providing a pretext for police state moves, and secondarily to explain efforts to secure DC against their own maniacs.
I love the tone deaf lack of self awareness the media has around January 6th. "50% of Republicans Don't Believe Jan 6th Was An Insurrection" is a legit headline and they see no problem with publishing that at all.
More whataboutism.
Same sex marriage is totally gay.
It is lawyer tyranny for rent seeking. It was rejected by Congress. It is still tejected by the overwhelming majority of gays.
Ilya is a decade to young to understand what really happened -- a lot of the young gay men dying of AIDS in the 1980s had life insurance policies that their parents had bought for them because that's what upper middle class parents do for their children -- and as no one had expected all these young men to die, the premiums paid so far were relatively small relative to the payout for a death in the 20's or 30's.
Well, by the late '80s, they knew that they were going to die and what they did was change the beneficiary from their next of kin (i.e. parents) to various gay activist groups, and by the early 1990s these activists groups had a s*itload of money.
Now Ilya can live in whatever idealistic world he chooses but reality is that we have the best politician and judges that money can buy -- and they were BOUGHT.
Bought and paid for.
And while Ilya can celebrate this, he might want to reflect on the fact that so-called "Boston Marriages" (between women) were accepted a century ago, 40 years later the MSP were arresting Smith College professors for "suspicion of homosexuality."
I don't think this is resolved yet, and I'm reminded of what RBG said about how it would have been better if Roe hadn't been decided....
Your evidenceless postulate about complete judicial corruption specific to this issue goes well with your misunderstanding of Ginsberg's critique of Roe.
Takeaway - when the political elite tell you no constitutional amendment is necessary because the courts will never do something, do NOT listen to them.
Activists should have ignored the elites back in 1995 and pushed an amendment through Congress in 1996. It would have been ratified by the required number of states by 1998 at the latest.
Even then we knew they were saying that because they didn't want the opposition to be effective.
Yeah, we should definitely use the constitution to tell people who they can and cannot marry.
Homosexuals have always had the same rights as heterosexuals with respect to marriage- the right to marry any other willing unmarried person of the opposite sex. The fact that they were generally although not universally disinclined to do so is constitutionally irrelevant.
Legal Marriage is not about affirming love or state recognition of a relationship. Its purpose is to provide protection for procreation, to codify the responsibility of mother and father and provide resources for the mother so that she can bear and raise children. Marriage, and women's roles in society, have changed greatly, but there is no constitutional or societal need for governmental support of same sex marriage. The drive to recognize same sex marriage was part of the same Granmci and Cloward-Piven inspired destruction of Western society that has so weakened American education at all levels, destroyed the concept of family, starting with the black community but now much more widespread, turned the once-mighty military into a social justice organization, and left the American economy in shambles.
3 of the first 7 American presidents had bad cases of “ding dong don’t work” syndrome...and yet those 3 men were in marriages?? Are you arguing that Washington, Madison, and Jackson shouldn’t have been allowed to get married??
None of them should have been allowed to marry any of the others. Any and all of them should have been allowed to marry any other unmarried adult woman who was willing.
If your point is that I should restrict legal marriage to couples who are able to procreate, I would be fine with that if it did not require an undue amount of intrusion into the private affairs of the 2 individuals. As for post-menopausal women, they get grandmothered in as they typically give up careers to raise children and should benefit from the patriarchal aspects of late life marriage.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids both rich and poor to steal bread, sleep under bridges, and beg in the streets." Anatole France.
Of all the silly arguments against gay marriage, the idea that gays can just marry someone of the opposite sex has always struck me as one of the sillier. It's like saying we don't discriminate against Catholics; they can worship at any Protestant church they like. And we're fine with vegetarians; if they're hungry they can have a cheeseburger just like everybody else.
The real argument is that opposite sex was just part of the definition of "marriage". It's what the word meant all along.
But there was never any real argument as to why it shouldn't mean more than that. And now it means more than that.
If you're going to radically change the definition of a word used in laws, you need to do it by the proper procedure, which is NOT judicially imposing the new definition in the teeth of democratic opposition.
Just as soon as you come out against the electoral college I'll take your complaints about anti-democratic methods seriously.
You know how to legally get rid of it. Any time you have the support, you can go ahead an do it.
Any time I only need 51% support to get rid of it, you'll have a point.
It's ony a radical change if you hate gay people. Otherwise it's just correcting an oversight.
Sounds like a foolproof strategy:
step 1: propose a radical change
step 2: declare that anyone who opposes it is a "hater"
step 3: ride roughshod over the opposition to your proposed measure, no matter how popular (why pay attention to "haters"?!)
I mean, aren't you kind of a hater if your position is that homosexual love is either not as good as heterosexual love or is actively a bad thing? Aren't you kind of a hater if your position is to actively deny others happiness because it makes you personally uncomfortable?
No, you're confusing it with a strategy, which, in fairness, the right is desperate to make work for them.
Definitions change over time. And marriage doesn't look anything at all like it did at the time of Abraham. If it did, you could still sell your daughter for two cows and five goats.
This one didn't change spontaneously, though. It was deliberately changed by judges over widespread opposition by the public.
Yeah, kinda like Brown v. Board of Education.
“This one didn’t change spontaneously, though. It was deliberately changed by judges over widespread opposition by the public.”
Depends on where you lived.
When supporters of same-sex marriage put the issue on the ballot in Maine, it marked the first attempt to legalize same-sex marriage in a popular referendum. It was approved by voters in the November 2012 elections.
After the state legislatures in Washington and Maryland voted in favor of same-sex marriage, the laws were blocked from taking effect until state voters were given an opportunity to decide the matter in ballot initiatives. The issue went to voters in November 2012 and in both states voters sided with legalizing same-sex marriage.
And let’s not forget the states that approved marriage equality through their legislatures. In chronological order, it was VT, NH, DC, NY, RI, DE and MN.
This is hardly the case of liberal courts running roughshod over the people. Your memory is selective.
Yes, a few states late in the process adopted it democratically, after the writing was on the wall.
2009 is late in the process?
OK, fair enough, that was about the middle.
In VT, the courts acted first.
1999: Vermont's Supreme Court rules that same-sex couples must receive the same benefits and protections as any other married couple under the Vermont Constitution
K_2,
Why are you selling off your daughter so cheaply?
If I jump into a time machine and introduce my husband as such to folks from 1920, they might be offended by our existence (like you), but they won't be confused.
Human language is more flexible then your ideology.
The controlling shift was neither legal nor political, but cultural.
Few people could still say, as Lewis Powell did to his (closeted) clerk in 1986 before voting against gay rights in Bowers v. Hardwick, that they didn't personally know any gay people.
I think you are correct and confirms Harvey Milk's credo that the most important political act a gay person can do is a cultural act: come out.
Yes. Acting like a normal person when doing it, instead of some bizarro BDSM fetishist, helps. By the 1990's this idea had sunk in. Before that the prevailing view among too many gay people was that marriage was too "normal" for them.
There is nothing wrong with fetishes. Normal married people have them.
True, but hetero people do not define their heterosexuality by their fetishes. The first few "out" gay people I met (in the 1970's) were out-loud weird. There was obviously something wrong with them, and one got the sense they were products of family dysfunction. They did not help the cause. Like I said, that era has passed.
Heterosexual normality was a kind of fetish, or the need to maintain the appearance of normality. That's why the internet is 90% porn. Irrepressable gay people expressing themselves helped break that down a bit. Even Republicans have given up on pretending it's one of their core values, though that comes across as less healthy than more honestly open Gay Pride displays.
"but hetero people do not define their heterosexuality by their fetishes. "
Speak for yourself.
Many whom I know do just that and called them life-style choices; fetishes are a small segment of the BDSM lifestyle.
" some bizarro BDSM fetishist"
What do you have against people who practice alternate lifestyles?
Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
""I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."
The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA), was intended to "promote acceptance, tolerance, and equality for the city's gay community." Just the opposite, however, was accomplished, as the event confirmed the worst fears of thousands of non-gay spectators, cementing in their minds a debauched and distorted image of gay life straight out of the most virulent right-wing hate literature. "
And they are supposed to be representative of all gay people?
He think it's satirising Gay Pride, as opposed to the people having their prejuduces confirmed.
Not so.
He is commenting on a particular segment the leather pride community. There is nothing wrong with them except that he is terrified of them
Which is weird because they seem quite nice.
They aren't?
Where are the heterosexual equivalent of the bathhouses?
What percentage of homosexuals go to bathhouses? I'll be surprised if it's above single digits.
And what about lesbians? They don't have bathhouses either; do they not count?
What's the heterosexual equivalent of a place that people engage in casual sexual activity? (Gestures widely at human society for the past 10,000 years).
Ed,
That is called a bar in MA.
Even for Ed, that's a very strong self-own.
"The controlling shift was neither legal nor political, but cultural."
If that's the case, a law would've been passed legalizing gay marriage.
And yet...that wasn't really done in most places. And not nationally either. Why not?
I just told you it was not political.
Often the sentiments of the culture are at odds with what is happening politically. Go to public attitudes as to assault weapons for an example, deader than dead in Congress even though two thirds of Americans are in favor. Politicians tend to be cowards.
As for gay marriage, the arguments against were so obviously ridiculous and homophobic that politicians voting against it could barely mouth them. Look at what happened when the New York Senate voted to pass the Marriage Equality Act in 2011. Every Republican voted against same sex marriage but not a single one spoke up to defend their vote. By contrast almost every Democrat who voted for it explained their reasons. The only person who spoke against was Ruben Diaz, who was the only Democrat voting that way.
Cultural shifts are automatically legal shifts in a democracy. When a cause wins in the courts over near uniform losses in the ballot box, including initiatives, that's a legal trend, definitionally.
A cultural trend would have won the initiatives, at least. But SSM lost initiatives even in California.
SSM prevailed because the judiciary didn't care what anybody else wanted, not because public opinion drove them.
Look, that's just the history: it lost everywhere but the courts, over and over, with precious few exceptions late in the game.
That's a snapshot in time early in the trend. It didn't stop after the vote. Young people (overwhelming supporters) became voters. Older voters (the overwhelming opponents) died or changed their minds. More people came out of the closet. Prominent politicians, including conservatives, got on board with each successive year. More people had conversations about the issue and came to the right side.
The courts acted prior to the culture shift in most places. However, about a dozen states enacted laws permitting same-sex couples to enter into civil marriage ahead of Obergefell, and many more would have between then and now thanks to the culture shift.
As I recall, multiple states were essentially forced to adopt such laws.
Judicially, I mean.
Eleven states (VT, NH, NY, WA, MD, ME, RI, DE, MN, HI, IL) plus DC all permitted same-sex couples to enter into civil marriage by legislation or voter initiative.
If that was the case drugs would have been legalised by now.
Unless you overestimate the support there actually is for legalized drugs
Or underestimate the opposition.
two sides of the same coin.
Only if one side of the coin is an entrenched minority of interests with investments in the status quo.
The Supreme Court should have bben impeached. The4 dissenters failed to stop the majority.
Sharia law will end gay marriage.
I have read the Sharia, and liked 90% of it. It beats the Catechism as a religious basis of a common law. All Muslim countries have low crime rates, even if poor, and war torn. Part of that effect is the prohibition of alcohol, the most crimogenic, suicidogenic substance on earth. Beyond alcohol, public self help is the most powerful factor for this effect.
Any American man that has the option to take Sharia over American family law should take Sharia! In fact a rich gay guy getting a divorce should also take Sharia which would annul the marriage and save him hundreds of thousands in divorce costs. 😉
Much less procedural and much less worthless, disruptive, lawyer rent seeking.
Ed,
Move to the KSA and you'll be happy.
Going back to the post -
It must be nice to believe that 'the "woke" left' and its identity politics have been rebuked and rejected thanks to the tactics of the SSM movement.
Now, go bake me a cake.
Forget it, man, it's a Somin post.
Somin brooks no dissent from his Yale indoctrinated degenerate views. Look at the seminar. No balance, just sick, one sided propaganda. Is there no other side, Somin? Most Americans, most homosexuals find your views despicable.
Ironic comparison to liberation from slavery. Now married homosexuals are enslaved by the law.
I demand access to the awesome NY divorce laws!! You will not silence me until I get access to NY divorce laws!!
Somin is a tax supported educator and has an obligation to present the other side of the subject, the catastrophic consequences of this lawyer imposed tyranny.
'But it is deeply at odds with the positions of many identity politics movements on both the "woke" left, and the nationalist/identitarian right, which focus on the supposed uniqueness and incommensurability of different ethnic, racial, cultural, and religious groups.'
You're absolutely terrified - or, if I'm being charitable, deeply embarrassed - by these unique identities because many of them developed in the course of a couple hundred years of opression and discrimination, and to acknowledge the identities is to acknowledge the oppression, and you seem to think if only they became homogenised, the identities would dissipate and the history would fade into the background, but the actual members of these groups are resisting because they don't see why they whould forget their own histories, for many reasons, but one in particular should be acknwoledged - because they don't want it all to happen again.
It's amusing to see the usual suspects confirming my belief that homophobia is an expression of the jealousy felt by repressed homosexuals. Could they make it any clearer than they do here?
That accusation was born tired.
It may be tired, but it's obviously true, dear.
Dave,
It is nice to have fantasies, but you should recognize them as such. The issue is far more fear than jealousy.
Fantasy: 747 after 747 filled with LGBTQUWXYZ activists heading for a 2-week vacation in Iran, which I'm told is pretty in the spring.
So yo fantasize about people you are uncomfortable with being sent to a regime you also don't like to be imprisoned, tortured, and possibly killed? Is that right?
Undesirables being eliminated has been a predictable, common even throughout human history, and humanity is better off for it.
What would America have looked like without the trail of tears? It would have looked like Brazil or any of the countries with large indigenous populations.
Wow. Just, wow.
"So yo fantasize about people you are uncomfortable with being sent to a regime you also don’t like to be imprisoned, tortured, and possibly killed? Is that right?"
That's one reading. Alternatively, Dr Ed lives in Iran.
What's to fear? That you're tempted to join in? There's no reason to be afraid of what other people get up to when it doesn't involve you.
This so backwards
The only reason homosexuals needed State recognized marriage is the inheritance exemption.
That's not a marriage problem, it exposes how unjust it is for the govt to steal a lifetime of industry for its citizens.
Better to give away a fortune while alive. $15000 gifts are tax exempt to people each year, no limit to tax exempt organizations. See the effect. Adjust gifts. Can't after death.
Great comments! Precisely what one should expect at the Volokh Conspiracy -- stale, unpleasant thinking striving to find comfort behind a thin academic and legal veneer.
Time for a tune
Artie, not even homosexuals support gay marriage. They are not fools, falling for an obvious lawyer trap to go after their assets. Sorry, try again.
I was a proponent of enacting some form of domestic partnership and/ marriage statutes for same sex couples, for purposes of protecting each parties interests, division of property on split, child custody issues etc, for the same reasons every state has family statutes.
That being said, the obergefell was one of the worst opinions lacking any constitutional basis.
I agree Tom that had a strong domestic partnership law replaced state marriages, much of the steam would have gone out of the movement toward SSM. The law had been filled with many inequities as you note.
It's a familiar and predictable course. People trying to defend stale positions dig in hard, delay progress for a time, then are overwhelmed by the degree and rush of change when the deadenders can no longer hold that wall.
Cool story.
By the time the Obergefel decision came around, over 2/3rds of the state constitutional amendments that banned same-sex marriage also banned civil unions, domestic partnerships, and so-on.
Which is to say, conservatives refused your favored compromise.
Why does Professor Communist Somin think that one man violently ramming his throbbing member into another man's rectum and slamming it against his prostate while screaming loudly in ecstasy and releasing gallons of sticky, greasy splooge deep inside as the adopted children sleep next door in the "family" home qualifies as an "act of love" that "consummates a marriage?"
We know it's you, Aktenberg.
Projecting?
Well, this is pretty much a new low for this comments section.
In July 2020, Somerville, MA passed an ordinance allowing multi-member domestic partnerships. There was a discussion of such on this blog (https://reason.com/volokh/2020/07/02/somerville-mass-allows-multi-member-domestic-partnerships/#comments).
Has there been any talk of strategy in poly legal circles of using this as a wedge to challenge the two-person legal construction of civil marriage?
Whistling Willie
Why not Willie?
Why should we be governed by the Sith "rule of two?"
Any discussion in the book about why the government should be involved in any marriage, regardless of the genders and numbers involved? You know, compelling reasons for making assumptions about what is at heart a religious ceremony?
The government has a clear interest in regulating if not preventing weddings of adults with minors.
I was married in a side-room of the local county registrar's office by a government employee.
No god, goddess, deity, or supernatural force was invited.
For that matter, some thirty years prior, my parents were married by a judge in a court room. Again, no god, goddess, deity or supernatural force was invited.
Hell, Mitt Romney, that infamous atheist† was married in a civil ceremony in Massachusetts before flying cross-country to Utah for a temple wedding.
Marriage has been a civil function of government for centuries. If that distresses you, die mad about it.
_______
†That was a lie. He is famously a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
"Marriage has been a civil function of government for centuries"
So? Governments were almost all religious until fairly recently.
I don't think any government has any business sticking its nose into my choice to shack-up with some other person or people, or not.
This post doesn't mention that one big factor was that the opponents of gay marriage made bad arguments. They claimed that allowing gays to marry each other would lead to the downfall of civilization and destroy the institution of marriage.
That sort of dumb, fact-free argumentation set them up for a fall, when jurisdictions started allowing SSM and nothing happened.
There are movements on the left who are in love with bad, fact-free arguments too. And, of course, the right continues to make bad, fact free arguments on climate change and against coronavirus restrictions.
Facts matter. Even ideologically inconvenient facts.
They were right. In 1950, we had a stable, well run society. Now we don't. Homosexual "marriage" isn't the only factor here, but they're all related.
Can you see how your comment just proves his point? Perhaps that was your intent.
Wow, what a lovely comment section to come back to.
Just another day at the Volokh Conspiracy.
Yet public opinion ultimately shifted decisively in favor of same-sex marriage, and in Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), the Supreme Court ruled that laws banning same-sex marriage are unconstitutional.
This is a description of the Supreme Court "protecting the right of all persons to enjoy liberty as we learn its meaning." This is a legislative function and is why the nomination of Supreme Court justices has become so political. How one learns the meaning of liberty is not taught in law schools and there is no reason that a group of lawyers should have any greater insight into it than anybody else. Nor was the Judiciary ever assigned this responsibility.
The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution, not the word 'liberty.'
And yeah, law schools teach that.
Make shit up with a people that don't give a damn ... hilarity (and amazingly a whole lot more hatred from the "winning" side) ensues.
To compare sodomites to my wife is RACIST Ilya Somin -- prick.
The real lesson is this: judges now make law. Government by Judiciary.
https://lawliberty.org/classic/the-coming-resurrection-of-raoul-berger-a-remembrance-of-government-by-judiciary/
"That judges in our time are self-consciously law makers rather than law finders simply cannot be denied in the age of NFIB v. Sebelius and Obergefell v. Hodges."
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