The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Is The Remedy For A "Substantial Departure" From Election Law?
A federal judge in Wisconsin found that there was "not a significant or material departure from legislative direction." But what if there was such a departure?
Yesterday, a federal district court judge in Wisconsin rejected President Trump's suit against the Wisconsin Election Commission. Trump argued that guidance issued by the Commission "deviated so significantly from the requirements of Wisconsin's election statutes that the election was itself a 'failure.'" Trump asked to declare 50,000 votes as "tainted." In other words, he wanted to nullify those votes. Instead, the Court should "remand" the issue to the Wisconsin legislature. The court explained, "plaintiff wants the Court to declare the election a failure, with the results discarded, and the door thus opened for the Wisconsin Legislature to appoint Presidential Electors in some fashion other than by following the certified voting results."
The court found that the President had standing, but found that the case failed on the merits. Rick Pildes wrote a concise summary of the opinion. He wrote:
Even if A Court Were to Disagree with These Prior Conclusions, Under What Circumstances Does Election Administration Violate the Electors Clause? Finally, the court concludes that even if the Electors Clause includes election administration, the mere fact that election officials have resolved disputed issues of statutory construction does not amount to a violation. Instead, only "significant departures" from the election code would violate the clause.
The court suggests something of a deference doctrine. So long as the government's interpretation of the election code is reasonable, the court will defer.
Here, I want to flag an alternative hypothetical that was not present in Wisconsin. What if the President was in fact correct on the merits. In other words, what is the correct remedy if there was a "substantial departure" from the election code?
I flagged this issue last month (what feels like a lifetime ago). Local officials in Harris County allowed curbside voting for early voting. The Texas Attorney General (who has been in the news of late) determined that this practice was illegal. A complaint was filed short after early voting concluded, seeking to set aside the curbside votes. A federal district court held an emergency hearing. The judge refused to invalidate the votes, but suggested the outcome would have been different if the suit was brought before early voting began. Here, the court was uncomfortable with wiping out votes cast in reliance on facially valid government guidance.
There was a recent election in Patterson, New Jersey that was thrown out altogether. My post flagged some of the difficulties with this remedy for a statewide election as a practical matter. But I do not have an answer from a legal perspective: can a federal court ever invalidate a vote?
What circumstances would justify the invalidation of one vote, or 50,000 vote? How egregious of a violation of the law must there be? Or, if voters reasonably relied in good faith on local officials, is vote invalidation never a proper remedy? If not, then this sort of election litigation is simply a waste of time. In other words, what relief could a federal court even provide in these circumstances that would remedy the plaintiff's injury? If a federal court could invalidate a vote, what is the burden? What is the standard?
I hope we can think these issues through before the next election. In 2020, there was no need for any court to reach this issue. 2024 may not be as lucky. I suspect some red states may over-react to 2020 in the exact opposite direction.
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Unlike the judge, I would have stopped with the principle of _Pennhurst v. Halderman_: federal courts can not order state officials to obey state law. It makes the line easier to draw.
Not if this question comes up in state court.
If you make a claim before the votes are cast, it's not ripe. Plus it's too close to the election for judges to be willing to do anything.
If you make a claim after votes are cast, judges won't invalidate votes because it's too drastic.
Therefore, the clear strategy is find a last-minute emergency justification to flout election laws.
If anything like this ever happens again, expect it to become a widespread tactic on both sides, with deep red counties in Pennsylvania and other swing states giving GOP voters multiple chances to "cure" spoiled ballots, ballots being mailed when people didn't request them, shifting standards on signature verification to try to benefit a preferred candidate, giving Dems pens to mark ballots that the machines can’t read, and other sleazy anti-democratic schemes.
giving Dems pens to mark ballots that the machines can’t read, and other sleazy anti-democratic schemes.
The fact that you think this happened shows how out of touch with reality you are.
It was claimed. If you have a link to exhaustive, impartial investigation findings, post it.
Not that I expect it to penetrate the reality distortion field surrounding Trump's cult followers, but here ya go:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/04/fact-check-sharpiegate-controversy-arizona-false-claim/6164820002/
"A Maricopa County sheriff's deputy was sent to investigate a polling place in Queen Creek on Tuesday and found that a woman was handing voters ballpoint pens with a flyer urging them not to use Sharpies. The woman was told to stop and agreed to leave; a spokeswoman told the Arizona Republic that new optical reading equipment was brought to the voting site to ensure ballots were being read correctly."
So... the voting site was previously using old voting equipment that would not correctly read ballots marked with felt-tip markers? And that supports a fact-check result of "false"?
"It's true but we don't like the implications," is enough to support a fact-check result of "false".
This is not to say that the original rumor was true, I don't know about that. But years of reading "fact-checks" has certainly proven to me that they can be pretty dodgy.
This is not to say that the original rumor was true, I don’t know about that,/i>
IOW, you do know it was false, but can't admit it.
A lot of things were claimed.
That you are so eager to believe them says a lot.
That you are so eager to ignore them says a lot.
It's pretty normal to ignore an unsubstantiated claim from those with something to benefit if it's true.
I'll pay attention when there is evidence to support them. Without that this stuff is just RWNJ ravings.
"If you make a claim before the votes are cast, it’s not ripe."
Except that courts rule on election procedures prior to elections all the time. In fact, the Trump campaign and its allies successfully challenged numerous voting rule changes throughout 2020. The Supreme Court rejected a bid to allow votes in Wisconsin to be received after election day on October 26. Five days earlier, the Eleventh Circuit blocked an Alabama state court ruling allowing curbside voting five days earlier. The Ninth Circuit struck down an attempt to allow Arizona voters to cure absentee ballots after Election Day. There were literally dozens of such rulings.
In effect, the 2020 elections were largely played under the rules the GOP successfully won in court. And Trump _still_ lost.
Turning off signature verification on millions of mail in ballots was one trick they weren’t able to prevent.
Why should a candidate have to win dozens of court victories to even attempt to prevent cheating?
So you think that Biden knew the courts would be okay with that and only that, and then orchestrated a widespread fraud undetectable except by signature matching?
Because if not, then get stuffed with your stolen election nonsense.
Does Biden even know what day it is?
What does Biden's knowledge or lack of knowledge have to do with anything?
If you can point me to the part of the Pennsylvania state code that provides for signature matching for absentee ballots, you should really point it out to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, because they looked, and they couldn't find it.
No kidding. Who in the world would think that an entire statutory regime geared around making sure that people who vote are who they say they are would expect some sort of objective verification of the identity of the person who filled out a piece of paper sent through the mail. Mark this as the first failure of emanations and penumbras in my lifetime!
So you have nothing. Got it.
If it was in the law, it should have been followed, and not waived away by a judge. If it is not in the law, complain to your representative that it should be. That is exactly what the clause stating this is under the control of state legislatures is for.
It's not in the law.
No, listen to the guys here. According to them, it's totally OK to accept ballots with no verification. Election integrity isn't on their list of priorities. Democracy is just another norm for them to ignore whenever it suits them.
Nobody said "no verification."
Perhaps relevant. (Starting page 58.)
"Comparing signatures: Pennsylvania has historically reviewed and rejected absentee ballots by comparing the signature on the ballot envelope to the voter file."
So, this year was a change of practice. Either prior practice was based on the common sense assumption that you don't require signatures unless you're going to require them to be the correct signatures, or Texas was right in their recent claim that Pennsylvania law actually DOES require a matching signature. Per the Texas brief:
"12B.
Pennsylvania cannot ignore the express terms of state law concerning signatures. With respect to Pennsylvania’s non-legislative changes to the signature requirements of state law,
the Pennsylvania Brief bends the meaning of words to the breaking point. Pennsylvania asserts that “the alleged violations of state law were not, in fact, violations.” Pennsylvania Br. 19. Pennsylvania then follows that assertion with the claim: “An analysis of a voter’s signature is not permitted by state law.”
Id. (with a “see” citation to In re Nov. 3, 2020 Elections,
2020 WL 652803 at *12). These dissembling
statements completely misrepresent what the text of Pennsylvania law says. The words of Pennsylvania law are clear: “The
application of any qualified elector ... for an official absentee ballot in any primary or election shall be signed by the applicant....” 25 P.S. § 3146.2(d). “Signature required.
Except as provided in subsection (d), the application of a qualified elector under section 1301-D for an official mail-in ballot in any primary or election shall be signed by the
applicant.” 25 P.S. § 3150.12. 25 P.S. §§ 3146.6(a) and 3150.16(a) require a voter submitting an absentee or mail-in ballot to “fill out and sign the declaration” printed on the ballot return envelope. The signed declaration on the envelope of each ballot must be verified: “When the county board meets to pre-canvass or canvass absentee ballots and mail-in ballots ... the
board shall examine the declaration on the envelope of each ballot not set aside under subsection (d) and shall compare the information thereon with that contained in the ‘Registered Absentee and Mail-in Voters File,’ the absentee voters’
list and/or the ‘Military Veterans and Emergency Civilians Absentee Voters File,’ whichever is applicable.” 25 P.S. § 3146.8.
Finally, signatures at the polling place must also be verified, according to Pennsylvania law: “Such election officer ... shall compare the elector’s signature on his voter’s certificate with his signature in the district register.” 25 P.S. § 3050(a.3)(2)."
Texas asserted the the cases stating otherwise were "sue and settle" cases where the state A.G. was deliberately losing in order to get the policy he wanted.
Odd that “these dissembling statements” are in fact the direct conclusion of the highest authority on what Pennsylvania state law actually requires: the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. If Ken Paxton wants Pennsylvania law to require signature matching for absentee ballots, he has two options: persuade the Pennsylvania state legislature to change the law, or resign his post as Texas Attorney General, move to Pennsylvania, become qualified under the Pennsylvania bar, get elected to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, and persuade his fellow justices to read in that requirement. (Of course, that would amount to a non-legislative body changing the rules that the legislature itself had written, and some here think that should be a felony, so he should watch out if he tries that.)
Sorry, I forgot that judges were inhumanly honest, and never, ever dissemble, or issue rulings that disagree with the law because they don't like the law. How could I have possibly forgotten that?
Actually, I expect that Pennsylvania WILL change its election laws to make clear that they mean what everyone previously understood them to mean, and in some cases, to make clear they mean what they unambiguously already said.
I don't know that it's going to do any good unless they follow it up with an impeachment or two, though.
Accusing the court of bad faith will not get you far.
It is a standard Brett move, though.
Pointing out bad faith generally accomplishes little or nothing with people acting in bad faith.
You can whine about the judges being dishonest all day long. The Pennsylvania legislature writes the laws, and the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania interprets them. This is the definitive word on what the law in Pennsylvania actually _is_. Texas's view of what the law _should_ be matters exactly as much as my view of what you should paint the side of your house.
When the county board meets to pre-canvass or canvass absentee ballots and mail-in ballots … the
board shall examine the declaration on the envelope of each ballot not set aside under subsection (d) and shall compare the information thereon with that contained in the ‘Registered Absentee and Mail-in Voters File,’ the absentee voters’
list and/or the ‘Military Veterans and Emergency Civilians Absentee Voters File,’ whichever is applicable.” 25 P.S. § 3146.8.
So they have to check names and addresses, I guess.
Finally, signatures at the polling place must also be verified, according to Pennsylvania law: “Such election officer … shall compare the elector’s signature on his voter’s certificate with his signature in the district register.” 25 P.S. § 3050(a.3)(2).”
And that languageisn't in the part of the law dealing with absentee ballots, which means the legislature knew how to explicitly require signature matching there, but didn't do it.
Yet according to your legal analysis, they meant to, but just were vague about it.
Oh, it WILL be a tactic on both sides, and we'll have 500% or more of our population voting.
I have an alternative proposal to keep election officials from deviating from State law as written: make it a felony for a state or local official to deviate from election law or order subordinates to deviate from election law.
And give specific examples in the the text, such as ordering subordinates to forgo checking signatures, counting votes received after the statutory deadline, issuing absentee ballots in a manner contrary to law, etc.
It's America, the country that made it a federal crime to pick someone up from a federal wilderness area using a hot air balloon. (Just to use today's Crime a Day as an example.) I'm sure that's already a felony.
Oh, hey -- it's Mr. "millions of state AGs" back for some more gratuitous America bashing.
If you really want to talk about stupid pointless laws, let's talk about stuff the 12 pages of bureaucrateze regulating the acceptable size and shape of bananas in the EU.
And that's one that's actually enforced, not just on the books.
I know that in the US you're perfectly happy with masses of state laws that stifle inter-state trade in just about everything, but in Europe we actually get serious about removing barriers to trade. And that looks like this.
(And, I promise you, not at all stupid or pointless. The Commission didn't wake up one day and decide to get interested in the ripeness of bananas. This is the result of industry trying to get rid of pre-existing Member State-level bureaucrateze.)
Ah, so the solution to supposedly problematic local laws creating barriers to trade is not to prohibit the problematic local laws, but to pass one-size-fits-none laws at a national level. Had to kill the patient in order to save it. Got it.
Well, as long as we're not overreacting.
But if you want to see real bureaucracy in action, feel free to type "banana" into the search field for the US Code of Federal Regulations. (Although admittedly some of those refer to a lagoon in Florida.)
Oooh... who wants to play "guess what Martin is thinking?" Only 113 results, starting with a restricted area in Florida called the "Banana River" (who knew?) and proceeding to acceptable levels of pesticides in various foodstuffs.
Feel free to fill us in on any specific point you thought you were making -- if you have time in between rounds of "rah rah Europe" beer swilling.
Given the lack of maturity in your comments so far, I think I'll pass...
And then prosecutors and investigators ignore it when it happens because it benefits their chosen candidate.
Kazinski,
You live in California. (Or Montana, or Mississippi, or S. Carolina, et al). Day of the election, your state is savaged by a natural disaster. A court quickly extends voting hours. Is this a decision worthy of sending that judge to prison?
2nd Example: Polling places in one geographic area of your state are not given enough ballots. A judge quickly orders polling hours extended, to give time to send replacement ballots to that area, even though your state has a law required the legislature to effect all voting changes. Or, orders polling places to accept provisional ballots once the "actual" ones run out, despite a state law forbidding this except via the legislature. Send her to prison as well for this?
Shit comes up last-minute in many many many many elections. Some due to bad acts on the part of one side or another. Some due to Acts of God. Some due to good-faith mistakes. Most are easily corrected (and without controversy!!!) by going to a judge for corrective orders. Other last-minute orders are, absolutely, more controversial. But are we really better off stripping judges of the ability to make common-sense decisions?
"A court quickly extends voting hours. Is this a decision worthy of sending that judge to prison?"
On what authority or law does the Judge have the right to extend voting hours? For how long? Is more than 12 hours legal? Why or why not? Does this lead to one area of the state having longer voting hours? Doesn't that introduce discrimination in how voters are treated?
On the grounds that a state failing to provide a meaningful chance to vote to residents in one portion of the state but not to others has denied them equal protection under the law.
If a state legislature decided to pass a law saying that only right-handed people could receive ballots, do you think that it would, or should, be a felony for a court to order that lefties could receive them, too?
Of course, in this case Covid didn't show up on election day, and the state legislature had already made the legal changes they thought necessary, and refrained from making the legal changes they didn't think necessary.
Which, as we've established, did not actually include changing the law to require signature matching for absentee ballots.
Why would they have changed the law to require signature matching for absentee ballots, when the law was already being interpreted to require signature matching for absentee ballots?
What you have to understand is that this ruling that signature matching wasn't legally required, or even permissible, represented a change, not the status quo. It's not what people had previously understood the law to mean, which is why there was, in fact, signature matching during prior elections.
What state or local official in 2020 ordered subordinates to deviate from election law?
Fine. Every voter is a state official.
If you should step out of line, life imprisonment for you.
You asked for it.
You deserve it.
Criminal.
The states should enact legislation that states (1) changes to established practices must take place a fixed number of days prior to the start of voting and (2) any court challenges to those changes must commence a fixed number of days (less than the number in 1) prior to the start of voting. Otherwise the changes stand and any litigation will only effect elections after the subject election.
None of this of course would not be a problem if one party was not trying to limit voting to the maximum extent possible. The Republicans want to skew the process so that Democratic voting is made much more difficult than Republican voting. It's not clear what this is called, but it ain't called Democracy, or Americanism, or Patriotism or Common Decency.
Despite Republican efforts, this past election was a fantastic one in that the percentage of the eligible population voting was very high. Isn't that what real Americans, as opposed to Rudy et. al. want?
Harder to vote once means harder to vote multiple times and harder to find thousands of magical ballots.
Seems like a rarely applied law, but surely you can appreciate why it should be against the law to pick up someone in a hot air balloon in a wilderness area? Hotair balloons are an definite fire danger, and wilderness areas are also completely roadless, so there is almost no way of getting assistance in an accident.
Wilderness areas also by law ban all engine use, and while a propane burner may not fit the definition of an engine, they are extremely noisy and can be heard for miles.
Federal felonies are a usually more loosely defined than state felonies, and it's always better to have a law specifically on the books that defines it.
Sure, but why should it be a criminal offence?
Why shoukld drunk driving be a criminal offense? Why should any negligent behavior with a significant identifiable risk of causing great harm be criminal?
No idea. On my side of the Atlantic drunk driving per se is not a crime, just an administrative offence that the police will give you a ticket for, just like speeding. Only if you combine it with seriously dangerous driving does it land you in court.
Ok, why should seriously dangerous driving, absent dead and/or disfigured bodies, land you in court?
Seems as though you accept that there may be some level of negligence/depraved indifference that is subjet to criminal sanctions. You're just quibbling over the details.
Martinned makes it sound as though the regulation singles out hot air balloons, but actually it (CFR §6302.20) prohibits landing an aircraft in a wilderness area, or picking up or dropping off any "material, supplies or person" by means of an aircraft, and a hot air balloon is unquestionably an aircraft.
As to why it is classed as a criminal offense, by the same regulation operating an ATV and running an Ironman competition in a wilderness area are also crimes. Welcome to America.
Don't look at me, I just copy/pasted from A Crime A Day on Twitter.
If it is anything other then a presidential election, the ultimate remedy is to re-run the election, which has been done before. For a presidential election it is of course more complicated. I would say the proper remedy would also be be to re-run the election in the affected areas. Under any case, throwing out ballots from legal votes who relied on the procedures at the time is wrong. And if those votes do get rejected, then Section 2 of the 14A should apply and the state lose representation.
If you establish that entire elections or massive batches of ballots can be tossed, then that opens the door for election officials and others to mess with the election in order for that to happen.
Josh the issue is logically trivial.
If you do not have an effective remedy - and that may well include invalidating many votes or an entire election, then you are lawless - the election laws are completely meaningless and you can expect massive fraud - if not at the time, then certainly in the future.
It takes very little intelligence to grasp that we can only speculate as the the actual effect of the failure of election officials to follow their own state laws - the impact may have been small or huge.
But continued failure to follow those laws will inevitably result in large scale fraud.
To those who beleive that the 2020 election results are trustworthy. Lets test this in 2022. Conduct the election in the same way - except actually allow the submission fraudulent mailin ballots and see if they are caught ?
What is very disturbing is that it is actually quite easy to conduct an election that we can trust. There is almost no form of election fraud that can not in one way or another be either completely thwarted or at the very least caught either before or after the fact.
Lastly, one of the effects of a draconian consequence - such as the possibility of large numbers of ballots being invalidated, is that voters themselves are likely to demand that election officials scrupulously follow the law.
You're making the typical Trumpkin error of confusing bureaucratic rules with "fraud." Again: other than the Powell/Wood Kraken team, none of these suits actually alleged fraud. If a law says that a ballot must be filled out with blue or black ink, and a ballot from an eligible voter comes in with red ink, that's not "fraud" even if it doesn't comply with the law.
(To be clear, this notion that the laws weren't followed is simply untrue. Trump's legal team failed to demonstrate that, either.)
If all else fails,make stuff up until your case makes sense
The reason no fraud was found is no fraud was committed.
In Georgia, for instance, how do you suppose all those rural trump counties dealt with the signature on Shanaquea smiths ballot?
IT goes as unremarkeable, but we are not looking there, are we?
this is all a fever dream by trumpistas
what if
what if
In order for a private party to vote by mail fraudulently they need to know the voters info, and be sure they are not voting in person
There is no evidence of masses of people showing up at the polls and voting only to find out their ballot had been submitted by mail
There is no evidence of more than single hundreds of ballot count differences between voters logged in and ballots cast
It didn't happen,
The least popular president in history lost the election
he lost the popular last time
how is this a surprise
find your exceptional evidence, or STFU
Whatever the issues might be, any remedy would have to take in to account or "balance" the right to vote. DIsenfranchising a huge swath of the populace should not be taken lightly, especially when those voters acted in good-faith to follow the rules in effect at the time.
I'm trying to come up with a hypothetical where it would be an appropriate remedy to just throw out ballots of eligible voters. "Because my preferred candidate didn't win" is not a good example,
Throwing out the results and letting the legislature appoint electors as a "remedy" is just foolish.
First, it punishes the wrong people. The voters didn't do anything wrong, so why should they be robbed of their vote?
Second, it's idiotic. Suppose the Republican officials in GA had seriously violated election laws, with Trump getting an undeserved win there. Would it be a fair solution to turn the election over to the Republican-dominated legislature? That would make the violations "free." Either Trump wins the vote, or the legislature gives the EV's to him anyway.
Looks like a stupid solution to me.
As usual, this argument begs the question. If a majority of actual voters clearly preferred one candidate, there is no good reason to set aside that result. But the argument in these states is that the canvass did not count all, and only, proper ballots. Excluding improper votes does not "punish" voters -- it prevents them from being disenfranchised by corrupt officials.
Oh, well if we're only going to exclude the _improper_ votes, then everything should be okay. I'm so glad you've found a reliable way of identifying which votes are the proper ones!
But the argument in these states is that the canvass did not count all, and only, proper ballots.
But that's not really the argument. Really the argument is that the procedures used did not conform to state law. Remember, Trump has dropped the whole fraud claim.
A lot of the stories being pushed by Trumpists are about fake ballots, etc., but that's not what's in the lawsuits. For example, Trump claims WI didn't handle absentee ballots properly, not that the ballots were themselves cast by people not entitled to vote. If you throw those out you are indeed punishing legitimate voters.
The argument is that ballots that don't conform to state law aren't proper ballots.
What are these ballots, and why don't they "conform?" If the failure to "conform" is not the fault of the voter why should such a ballot be thrown out without evidence that the vote was actually fraudulent?
Suppose the election worker in some county, contrary to your imagined law, were required to match signatures, and just didn't do it. Are all those votes to discarded as improper?
In another one of these threads I asked you how you would feel if your ballot, mailed and postmarked on time according to the instructions as publicized, were discarded because the instructions were later determined to be inaccurate. Maybe you answered, but it's hard to navigate through all these. In any case, could you answer now?
Not really.
If the remedy was to throw out the results and immediately vote again, then you might have a point.
But bernard11 was referring to cancelling the election entirely, which disenfranchises everyone. Which you'd understand all too well if the legislature surprised you by picking the candidate you didn't want.
Well, I think this exposes a serious problem with the way we run our federal, and especially Presidential elections: Lack of any provision for a revote if the original vote is hopelessly compromised, and the actual winner can't confidently be identified.
But I have been saying all along that was the problem with these lawsuits: The judges take one look at the only available remedy, and decide that no amount of evidence would ever justify it, so they refuse to take the cases.
If all that were at stake was fining somebody, or even tossing some small and identifiable group of ballots, I'm sure many of these lawsuits would magically have been found to have standing.
What about punishing the people who actually broke the law instead of the people who relied on erroneous officials?
None of these examples involve manufacturing votes. They all involve some sort of administrative process. What difference does it make whether the Harris county polls were in tents or barns? What is the actual harm? Once that is identified, then punish the actors appropriately so as to deter future acts.
The examples of curing erroneous ballots is a better example of an election process not being fair. But it is perhaps better to allow all parties to cure ballots in the future.
This seems pretty straightforward to me: punish the people who broke the law. If voters cast ballots in good faith following the rules that election officials said were in place at the time, those votes should be counted. If election officials break the law, punish them proportionately — could be firing, fines, or even prison if serious enough.
The only time an election should be voided is if you have a really, really good reason to believe that votes were counted that shouldn’t have been according to the rules in place at the time, AND the number of disputed votes is within the margin of victory. And the remedy should be a do-over election if at all possible.
Why is invalidating illegal votes invalidating an election? Please be precise with your language.
Another strawman failure from Team Kraken.
It's not. If you can clearly identify illegal votes. But throwing out a lot of legal votes is invalidating the election.
I'm not a lawyer, so go easy on me 🙂
I would say that invalidating illegal votes does not invalidate an election, but I think you are begging the question. What constitutes an illegal vote? Should a vote cast in good faith following the rules and procedures put in place and promulgated by state officials at the time of the election be considered illegal if the rules themselves are found to be illegal only after the fact? Would invalidating a vote in that case violate the prohibition on ex post facto laws?
The answer is really whose ox is getting gored. If the Dems lose and they suspect fraud then the remedy is throw out all the votes and invalidate the election. If it is Republicans then there is no remedy because courts should not overturn democracy.
Who thinks this "let's play with two sets of rules" is going to end well for anyone?
If the Dems lose and they suspect fraud then the remedy is throw out all the votes and invalidate the election.
For example...?
There is no example. This is what the Rs do, they accuse the Ds of doing exactly what they are doing.
What both Josh and the Trumpkins here ignore / don't understand / never even bothered to figure out is that virtually every state¹ has statutory procedures in place for contesting election results. These procedures typically require that challenges be brought at a certain time in certain (state) courts. Trump's Elite Strike Force Lawyers — to the extent they knew this, and many may not have because none of them are election lawyers — deliberately eschewed those procedures in favor of rushing to (mostly) federal court.
¹I suspect every state, but I haven't looked at all 50 and so don't want to overstate things.
My inpression was they did a full court press. They started out filing lawsuits before the elections. When they lost those, they simply filed new ones. Sometimes they came up with new arguments. Other times they didn’t bother and simply had new plaintiffs recycle the same arguments that had just lost in state court in federal court.
They just kept filing. Until time ran out. And then some.
Trump's elite legal strike force were donating between 99.99% and 100% of their political donations to Biden, depending on the law firm in question. If you want to say that Trump was an idiot for not finding counsel that actually wanted him to win, I wouldn't disagree.
He found Giuliani and Powell.
Are you seriously claiming that his previous lawyers were secretly conspiring to have him lose?
Pretty serious accusation. I assume you have evidence to back this up.
I have evidence that his lawyers were donating to his opponent. And Trump could have determined this long ago, and made sure he went into the election with lawyers who wouldn't be happy to lose his cases.
A sensible person wants counsel who aren't rooting for the other guy. Sure, maybe a perfectly ethical and inhumanly objective lawyer will do an identical job for a client they love, and a client they loath and hope loses. But why rely on a lawyer being perfectly ethical and inhumanly objective?
Sure, there are ethical lawyers, maybe even more of them than the unethical sort. There might even be one or two inhumanly objective lawyers in the world. But all those lawyer jokes didn't come about because the legal profession is saintly, as I have personal reason to understand.
Actually, you've found evidence that a majority of donations from lawyers working at the law firms that worked on Trump's pre-election litigation went to Trump's opponent.
If you've found evidence that the lawyers _working on said litigation_ donated to his opponent, I'd be very curious to see it.
You have not come close to making a case that the lawyers for Trump were operating in bad faith.
Go write for Gateway Pundit with this kind of standard of truth, jeez.
No, I was just producing evidence that he was careless in picking his law firms. While a lawyer who loathes you and wants your opponent to win might none the less do a good job, aren't you smarter to have an equally competent lawyer who likes you, and wants your opponent to lose?
Virtue+self interest > virtue-self interest. Every time. Smart people don't rely on virtue triumphing over self-interest, when they could be working together, instead.
I'm not going to disagree that Trump is an incompetent bungler. That seems obvious.
I think the idea that his lawyers wanted to lose his cases is absurd. It comes from outer space, from the mind of someone who just can't believe Trump didn't have a solid case, and didn't actually lose the election.
Aside from concern about ethics and so on, lawyers don't take dives for a very simple reason - prospective future clients tend to prefer to hire lawyers who win cases rather than those who lose them.
If we take the position that the “manner” of appointing electors means things like elections v. the secretary of state picking, then a remedy becomes clear. If the legislature calls for an election and there is no election, then a federal court can step in.
But nothing that happened this year remotely resembled that scenario.
This is exactly the basis of Saturday's ruling by Trump-appointed judge Ludwig in Wisconsin. As per the US constitution, the legislature specifies the "manner" of the selection of electors, in this case winner of the popular vote in an election. Wisconsin’s election bureaucracy was created by the state legislature to administer the election, which is the "means".
Judge Ludwig concluded in his ruling that the Trump team was confounding the "manner" with the "means".
That may seem like legalistic hair-splitting to some, but it's how this case was decided. (among a few other things)
Is retorsion the remedy for a controversy between two states that is not heard by the Supreme Court in original jurisdiction? The topics of retorsion and the circularity of sovereignty are interesting: when the majority of a state legislature (such as that of Pennsylvania) is denied its rightful power by unempowered branches of its own incarnation, how can such a denial be peacefully remedied other than by an external power -- by "the people" of another state?
In Quaestiones Disputatae de Veritate [q.11, a.2 (1256-59)], Thomas Aquinas mentions a paradox concerning a teacher who teaches all and only those in his town who do not teach themselves. The subject is considered more recently by W.V.O. Quine ["Paradox," Scientific American, 206 (1962) 84-96 at p. 84.] and by Peter Suber. Quine noted that "The argument that sustains a paradox may expose the absurdity of a buried premise or of some preconception previously reckoned as central to physical theory, to mathematics, or to the thinking process. Catastrophe may lurk, therefore, in the most innocent-seeming paradox. More than once in history the discovery of paradox has been the occasion for major reconstruction at the foundation of thought."
mydisplayname, whatever you take the, "the circularity of sovereignty," to mean, I suggest that when it comes to elections and legislatures it's off the mark. An election is a decidedly un-circular exercise of sovereign power by a genuine sovereign—as opposed to the typical legislative manifestation of approximate, sort-of, delegated sovereign power, which commonly stands in on behalf of the real sovereign while the real sovereign is less active.
I also suggest that almost all these comments with regard to this election, the courts, the remedies, etc., would be improved by keeping in mind that state legislatures—like all legislatures under popular sovereignty—ought not to consider themselves empowered to constrain the sovereign itself. The obligation of a legislature with regard to elections is to cherish, serve, and maximize the power of each member of the joint popular sovereignty. That is quite far from (almost an opposite of) a plenary legislative power to structure elections to suit the preferences of legislators, including their political preferences. If all these commenters had that in mind, the comments would not presume so much scope for action by legislatures with regard to elections.
Curiously, Pennsylvania law absolutely requires signature matching if you vote in person: Section 3050 (A.3) (3)
"When an elector has been found entitled to vote, the election officer who examined his voter's certificate and compared his signature shall sign his name or initials on the voter's certificate, shall, if the elector's signature is not readily legible, print such elector's name over his signature, and his number in the order of admission to the voting machines, and at primaries a letter or abbreviation designating the party in whose primary he votes shall also be entered by one of the election officers or clerks."
The section relating to absentee ballots, 25 Pa. Stat. § 3146.8, merely requires that,
"the board shall examine the declaration on the envelope of each ballot not set aside under subsection (D) and shall compare the information thereon with that contained in the "registered absentee and mail-in voters file," the absentee voters' list and/or the "military veterans and emergency civilians absentee voters file," whichever is applicable. If the county board has verified the proof of identification as required under this act and is satisfied that the declaration is sufficient and the information contained in the "registered absentee and mail-in voters file," the absentee voters' list and/or the "military veterans and emergency civilians absentee voters file" verifies his right to vote, the county board shall provide a list of the names of electors whose absentee ballots or mail-in ballots are to be pre-canvassed or canvassed."
Texas' position was that, when the proof of identification is a signature, verifying the proof of identification means verifying the signature. Just as is required if you show up in person to vote.
I don't think that's an unreasonable reading of the law.
Texas reading PA law has as much validity as you doing so.
So, you don't care what it actually says. I'm not shocked.
But, to be clear, it isn't true that the people complaining about this have no legal basis for doing so. Not only is there statutory basis for thinking validating the signature IS required, it was the regular practice prior to this election. So it's not some weird, off the wall interpretation of the law. It was the interpretation that prevailed until a few months ago.
A lot of regular practices got ended with this election, without statutory changes. Often by collusive litigation, sue and settle. Interestingly, the Wisconsin state legislature has attempted to stop the practice of sue and settle. As this year has demonstrated, unsuccessfully.
I suppose they'll try again next year, and probably update election laws to make clear that, yes, signatures ARE supposed to be validated on absentee ballots.
For all the good it's likely to do...
You do understand that your objections are procedural, not substantive?
You have no evidence of fraud, you just don't think the election was conducted with proper procedures. Remember that the next time you raise hell about a court throwing out a lawsuit on procedural grounds.
As I have said over and over again, if your accountant moves funds around, and then destroys all your financial records, you will find it extraordinarily difficult to prove he committed embezzlement. But nobody would blame you for thinking it.
If you change elections procedures in such a way that fraud, if committed, could not be proven, the complaint that you can't prove fraud loses its sting. They went out of their way to make sure you couldn't!
But it should be sufficient that the election was conducted in an illegal fashion. You shouldn't have to prove fraud if you can prove illegality. And we can prove illegality, we just can't make judges care.
You've gone from,
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable reading of the law.
To
we can prove illegality,
Plus, your reading is farfetched. The legislature explicitly requires signature-matching for in-person voting. They could easily have put the same language in the section on mail-in voting. They didn't.
Somehow, you read that as imposing the requirement.
Plus, they didn't destroy all the records. In your accountant example the accountant would have to destroy everything that even told me what my balances were, and somehow stop me from retrieving them from banks and brokerages. That's not analogous at all.
Plus, if you could show serious statistical anomalies - the kind Dr. Ed keeps making up - you could dig deeper, but you can't. If anything, the voting in PA, as elsewhere, was stronger for Trump than pre-election polling.
Another example: Biden got 81% of the vote in Philadelphia County. Party registration there is 76% D, 12% R. Does that suggest some giant fraud is going on?
Your analysis is: I don’t think that’s an unreasonable reading of the law.
I don't need to do an in-depth analysis of your legislative analysis to tell you that does not and should not matter.
Where the statute calls for "proof of identification" that is a defined term and the various forms it may take does not include a signature.
Signature comparison is done for in-person voting because the statute calls for it, in addition to proof of identification. A signature check is also required when processing applications for mail-in ballots, but not when canvassing the ballots themselves.
I now think I was wrong here, and there is no signature comparison for applications either.
You don't throw out millions of votes because after the election you think that a different interpretation of the election details is more correct.
Outside the hyperbolic politics, there are legitimate issues with voting. In general, they are in areas of administration, efficiency, and ensuring one person one vote. Voter roles/mailing lists are inaccurate/sloppy and it takes years of litigation to update and correct. Nobody should want dead people voting. Nobody should want people voting more than once. Nobody wants ballots floating around for people who have moved from the area. A mass mailing of ballots sent out indiscriminately exacerbates the issues. Florida has had instances of people being on voter roles in more than one state. If ballots are mailed to a New York residence and the Florida residence, do they get to vote twice? It is not uncommon for residents in apartments to receive mail from previous residents. This happens with voting. When the voter roles are out of date, you can have one address receive ballots for current and past residents. The fact is that it takes years of litigation to clean up/update/keep current voter rolls. Ballots should not be turned into junk mail/direct mail. There is little practical reason to preclude counting of early voting/absentee ballots until after the close of polling places on election day. Do not release any results but for common-sense administration, if you have weeks of early voting and mail-in ballots, start counting no later than the morning of the election. At a minimum, there should be some level of verifying that ballots received after the closing of the polls were actually cast/mailed before the polls closed. NOT requiring p[ost mark verification is insulting. Rational people should not have an issue with some level of voter verification and compliance with whatever the current statutes/regulations require. Identification is required to pick up a prescription, check out a book from a library, and almost any interaction in retail/commerce. If the state law specifies signatures on the envelope, don't ignore that requirement. I prefer absentee ballots where a voter requests a ballot over mailing ballots to everyone on a questionable mailing list. Have a limit for vote counting. There should not be instances like the Congressional district in NY where weeks after election day 55 ballots are found in a drawer that may not have been counted. Get the bureaucracy's act together and get the ballots counted within days not weeks/months of election day.
You don't have to be a conspiracy nut to see that there are errors in voting. The report on the failures of the Iowa Democrat Caucus is good evidence of the poor administration.
Let's be real here. There was nowhere near enough fraud to change the election results. But that wasn't the point. The point was for the left to show "Hey, we can tamper with the election protocols, pull some other funny business, and there's nothing you can do about it!" It was a power play, much like ordering Confederate monuments removed.
And as usual, conservative white Americans are being marched straight into the showers with nary a peep.
Good point, Aktenberg78. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court pointing out that the wording of the Pennsylvania state code does not require or allow signature matching for absentee ballots is nothing but a dry run for a totalitarian takeover of the country, and it is entirely reasonable and not at all a sign of severe mental illness to compare it to the Holocaust.
The Pennsylvania state code also didn't allow for an extension of the mail in ballot deadline, but that detail didn't seem to bother you as you and the rest of the perverts on the left.
And the ballots received after Election Day were never included in the count, but that detail didn’t seem to bother you, either.
Also, Hitler gas chambers something something.
This is the same Pennsylvania Supreme Court that bounced a duly voted on law because they didn't like it.
https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-pennsylvania-supreme-court-gun-nra.html
If the legislature had passed a law giving a medal and a ticker tape parade to any homosexual male who spread HIV to 100 or more men by attaching it to something else, the court never would have had an issue with it.
To be fair, they had a valid point about violating the single subject rule. Not that they're really good at enforcing it when they like the multiple subjects, of course, but it was a fair cop.
Right, well that's my point. I wouldn't have had an issue with the numerous leftist court decisions against the Trump's executive orders had the "arbitrary and capricious rule" employed been applied to all of Obama's EOs as well.
And as usual, conservative white Americans are being marched straight into the showers with nary a peep.
Fuck you, Aktenberg78 or whoever the hell you are.
There is no such thing as a departure from election law, let alone a substantial one.
Hunter Biden's laptop is Russian disinformation.
Joe Biden knew nothing of his son's dealings in Ukraine despite the fact that US ambassador Yovanovitch testified that she was told to direct questions regarding Hunter Biden's involvement with Burisma to the VP's Office.
Hunter's boss Zlochevsky did not benefit from Joe Biden getting one prosecutor fired and installing another who ran a sham trail resulting in Zlochevsky maintaining his very lucrative but ill gotten extraction permits. Moreover Zlochevsky's having been found guilty only of minor tax issue, and thus able to return to Ukraine, was of no benefit whatsoever to Hunter's boss.
Hunter was not a bagman for Joe.
The FBI would never deceive or withhold critical information from we the people. Therefore the FBI's possession of smoking gun evidence while the POTUS was a mere few votes shy of being removed from office must have been an oversight. If only Stalin knew...
Oh, yes, back to the main point. It doesn't matter who votes, only who counts the votes. I cannot remember if that was Uncle Joe or the PA supreme court.