"Rockland County [N.Y.] Issues Subpoenas, Fines to Contain Coronavirus Cluster"

From the New York Post (Bernadette Hogan and Jorge Fitz-Gibbon):

Rockland County is playing hardball to contain a coronavirus cluster, issuing subpoenas and threatening $2,000 daily fines to force a group of partygoers to cooperate with health officials.

At issue is a party in mid-June in the town of Clarkstown where as many as 100 people were exposed to the deadly bug and eight have already tested positive—yet the revelers refuse to assist the county, lohud.com reported Wednesday.

"My staff has been told that a person does not wish to or have to speak to my disease investigators," county Health Commissioner Patricia Schnabel Ruppert said at a press conference.

"They hang up. They deny being at the party, even though we have found their names from another party attending or a parent provides us with the information. They do not answer their cell phones and do not call back."

"This must stop," Ruppert said. "Unfortunately, I am now forced by these circumstances to send subpoenas to the individuals who are required to cooperate with us. Failure to comply will be costly—$2,000 per day." …

Comments

[Miss Greenparker]

Hellth officials are the latest jack boots.

[Darth Chocolate]

There is a simple answer for this overreach: FOAD.

A more polite way would be to invoke the 5th amendment.

[Miss Greenparker]

Jackboots.

We are experiencing medical de facto martial law over a flu which most non-elderly and normally functioning immune system people haven't contracted or become seriously ill and died from.

And these same jackboots won't let family members and other loved ones visit those who do become seriously ill from various aliments in nursing homes and hospitals.

[Snorkle]

Don't worry about it. Thanks to the people who think similarly, it will soon be (if it isn't already) a completely uncontrollable runaway.

Enjoy the funerals.

[Miss Greenparker]

You only wish, apparently.

Too much government legal overreach and psycho-social manipulation is going on for this to be only about fear and death-mongers having their way.

[damikesc]

A party is the end of the world. Monthlong protests, though, slow the spread.

SCIENCE!

They should plead the Fifth and tell the jackboots to F off.

[neurodoc]

@Miss Greenparker. Your ignorance about the corvid19 pandemic and insouciance about the toll it is taking is truly stunning, even for these boards where ignorance and callousness are not very uncommon.

Enough said.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The government seems more and more to be the ignorant sector. This being its usual modus operandi, the continued slide in cause for alarums is not surprising.

[Miss Greenparker]

You must not really be a brain surgeon and only an avatar, neurodoc. Perhaps I should've signed on to comment as rocketscientist.

In real life and in a big city with noted major hospitals that are not overwhelmed by this flu, btw, we know smart and honest doctors who have personally told us that this so-called pandemic is not only overblown but a lie, and just today said that this regular flu strain is greatly weakening and on its way out.

Call them callous, ignorant and insouciant, if you will, but we believe these quite accomplished and non-partisan and of good character doctor friends over the government and media shills who appear to have a most intrusive and power-grabbing agenda.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Then you're an idiot. This "flu" which isn't a big deal, has killed 125k Americans in six months. That's between two and twelve times the annual average deaths from influenza.

Don't breed.

[ravenshrike]

Which is because there's no built up immunity from past infections like there is with standard flu strains. The only way to get that immunity is to catch it and survive. Given the nature of how it spreads, eradicating it is a fool's game, which means the only thing that should be done is to keep it to a simmer so that the hospitals aren't overwhelmed. Social distancing and reinforced hygiene on their own are enough to do that. Course, had every health official not stuck their thumb up their ass and lauded the BLM protests the amount of people flaunting the regs because they fully recognize the rank hypocrisy of said medical professionals would be a hell fo a lot less.

[Sarcastr0]

We're already doing better with therapies as we learn more.

Social distancing without contact tracing requires 100% of the population to go along; that's not happening.

The people to blame for breaking the protocols are the people breaking the protocols. If you won't follow the rules because the experts are too liberal about some other thing, that's on you.

[damikesc]

Perhaps you should try a protocol that is, you know, doable.

We could outlaw abortion and tell women "Well, only fuck if you want to have a baby". That is even MORE possible than your suggestion.

[Sarcastr0]

Contact tracing is doable. Plenty of examples of it working really well, both here and abroad.

[jubulent]

We could outlaw abortion and tell women “Well, only fuck if you want to have a baby”.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible. This is exactly the attitude we take towards men.

"Only let your girlfriend lie about being on birth control if you want to have a baby."

"Only leave a used condom where someone else can access it if you want to have a baby."

"Only get a blowjob if you want a baby."

Or my personal favorite: "Only get raped if you want to have a baby."

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Nothing in your comment is even close to being correct.

[damikesc]

Well, the numbers are rather heavily inflated. This is not, you know, news.

Also, as a rule, we didn't stick flu patients in nursing homes for safekeeping. Democrats did that here.

[neurodoc]

A board certified neurologist (medical), not a neurosurgeon (surgical). Also, board certified in preventive medicine, holder of an MPH degree, and trial attorney. What do you bring to the table Ms. Greenparker by way of relevant qualifications of any sort? Something pertinent to medicine, public health, virology, the law?

If EV tells you something about the law, especially indisputable aspects of evidentiary privilege, you'd do well to listen and not try to contradict him based on whatever you pull out of your whatever or bring back from the lunatic fringe.

You are undoubtedly much more familiar with what your fellow loons are thinking, so do share that with us. You have been told by credible medical authorities "that this so-called pandemic is not only overblown but a lie." Really? How about identifying those accomplished doctors in whom you repose trust by name and/or institutional affiliation. Where have they published their "truth," so we can read it for ourselves? Please point us to respectable journal articles that lend support to your claims. (When you speak of "doctors," do you have in mind naturopaths or chiropracters?)

Who is behind what you believe to be a "hoax," and how have they managed to pull it off with such success? Do you believe we have already had the most corvid19 deaths in the world and maybe over 250,000 deaths by the end of the year? Any elaboration you offer will be of interest to those of us who find thinking like yours bizarre, if not frankly delusional.

If a vaccine is produced and approved by the FDA, do you think you will take it, or are you an anti-vaxxer? Do you wear a mask or you skip it and social distancing? Do you know anyone who has been affected by this virus?

[Leo Marvin]

C'mon neurodoc, you don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to know the so-called "COVID-19 vaccine" is Bill Gates' thinly veiled pretext to implant everyone with microchips pre-programmed to make us all dump our Playstations for X-Boxes.

(Miss Greenparker is illustrative of what happens when the American President is himself such an habitual conspiracy theorist that now nine GOP congressional candidates are QAnon supporters.)

[damikesc]

What, exactly, is our success rate in creating coronovirus vaccines? The common cold is a coronavirus and we have done a bangup job vaccinating against that.

We've kinda developed squat for about 70 years now.

[Kevin Smith]

75% of common colds are caused by one of 150 different rhinoviruses, not coronaviruses (although some colds are caused by coronaviruses)

The fact is there is little impetus to create a cold vaccine because 1: the common cold is very mild, the efforts are better put toward research that can actually save lives, and 2: even if you vaccinate against one virus, there are hundreds more that cause the cold

[Dr. Ed]

Is this the same medical profession that prescribed Thalidomide to pregnant women?

You can be wrong, you know -- it's happened before....

[Sarcastr0]

Actually that didn't happen in the US nearly as much as it did in the UK due to our FDA stopping it's approval.

Government public health workers, saving the day again.

[Miss Greenparker]

All I bring to the table, neurodoc, is the fact my very healthy 14 year-old daughter was given vaccinations at a medical facility, and she immediately got sick. Then her hair started falling out. I was told her problem was not vaccine related. One month later, she was given a booster to one of the shots and a few days later she nearly died.

At the time, we were on the road between cities when she said she thought her head was about to explode and was close to passing out. I had to call ahead for directions to the best ER and hospital in Houston and then sped like crazy. She was admitted and given every scan and test possible. The results showed her liver was in sudden and near failure from her hepatitis shot and booster, but the docs would not write it down in her records. They did not even want to discuss the issue, after we all figured out what had happened to her, but they did tell me she would've died had we delayed coming to ER by even half a day. Fortunately, after six days or so she stabilized, but her liver is still seriously scarred and considered at risk.

There are smart, honest and brave doctors, and then there are too many who don't want rock the boat. I've connected with a number of parents who've had similar bad outcomes when their infants and children were vaccinated, and nearly to a person, they said the docs did not want to officially link the vaccine/s with the sudden onset of serious health and behavioral problems, some of which did result in death for the truly unlucky families. This code of silence is why so many adverse reactions to various vaccines do not get compiled correctly by the CDC-- if, in fact, the CDC would even want to know. Big pharma is a huge sector of the global economy and getting bigger, as we speak... of Covid.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Oh. You're one of Those people.

Did you also know the Earth is flat?

[Miss Greenparker]

Btw, neurodoc, you and Leo Marvin are truly unimpressive in your insult style. At least, the Very One-Note Reverend clings to constancy and consistency in calling everyone he disagrees with a "clinger."

You know, too late, I learned that France had already outlawed the particular hepatitis vaccine that nearly killed my daughter, due to too many cases of the same type of reaction. But, here in the States, they are still giving it to us and our children. Of course, the adverse effects are significantly under-reported.

Whatever. Blindly trust all government, corporation, doctors, and product, especially the product they shoot us up with and tell you it's safe. We shouldn't be free to choose and opt out. Make big pharma product mandatory and make us submit to nose swabs and needles. And, if someone should doubt, use social media to pile on, bully, and shame them into compliance. Tell them they're crazy and stupid, even murderous for not taking the shots for the collective and common good.

Be sure to never give a listen to those brave few doctors and epidemiologists who do speak up in making the connection between a lot of vaccines and tragic consequences. And, above all else, be sure not to listen to the independent doctors and epidemiologists who are amazed at the sensationalism surrounding this current flu virus and who question the wildly inaccurate models and conflicting and inflated reported numbers, for they must be "loons" and believe in the "Q Anon" psyop, as well.

[neurodoc]

If you had a case with any merit you could have filed a claim with the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program at no cost to yourself. And you could have reported your experience to the Vaccine Adverse Experience Reports (VAERS) maintained by the FDA.

We still have no idea why you think the covid19 pandemic which has killed >130K Americans in the space of 4 months is a "hoax." At what point will you accept its reality, before or after our buffoon president does?

[Miss Greenparker]

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote. We could get no written or official corroboration from the medical system as to the connection between her sudden liver and immune system symptoms and the vaccine shots. They clammed up. Other parents told me they experienced the same wall of silence, except in one case.

I looked into reporting the near death of my daughter, but found out it would have been of no use, since all of the doctors and facilities involved that I'd have to list would have disavowed anything we discussed in person. Getting copies of the medical reports was incredibly problematic, for some reason. The trouble and expense of getting a lawyer to handle the case seemed daunting and futile. It's not like TV where a smart attorney is eager to take on the Establishment shibboleths and corruption; most don't want to go near such cases.

We lived in Atlanta and knew several CDC "not inconsequential" personnel, at the time. We were advised it'd all be a waste of time, that no medical professionals would put their career on the line against Big Pharma and the CDC agenda of "you can't shoot enough vaccines into newborns, children, and adults."

Don't have time to find all of the links. There are plenty of medical personnel speaking up about the inflated numbers they are told to report. For ex., patients who die from other conditions but who tested positive for Covid are put down as Covid deaths. They have tried blowing the whistle on the not insignificant numbers of false positives on those tests and point out the conflation, in the news, of positive tests of asymptomatic people who are not being medically treated with active cases in the hospitals.

Hospital administrators have even gone public to deny their facilities are maxed out, when the headlines and anonymous doctors say otherwise. Others go along with the hysteria.

In five months, we have only known of one person who tested positive for Covid and she only presented with flu symptoms, a mild case, days after this test and stayed home for ten days, or so, as required. We know a lot of people, and their ages range from 40 to 90. We're in our sixties in a big city that has been shut down and muffled with masks and in a state with spiraling and heading to the moon Covid "cases," according to the increasingly tabloidesque corporate news. Our friends include some blacks and hispanics, and none of them know anyone affected by, much less dying from, Covid.

Anecdotal, sure. But there are too many big agenda items that just happen to be furthered by this "pandemic", which I won't bother going into. And, get over your pinning Trump and QAnon on me. They're just players like all the rest. Believing what anyone says in the news-- or on blogs-- is getting to be difficult.

Last, masks are really bad for one's health. No doubt people will truly get sick in numbers after days and months of breathing in the carbon dioxide saturated and befouled with their own germs "air". I can't breathe is right.

[David Nieporent]

All I bring to the table, neurodoc, is the fact my very healthy 14 year-old daughter was given vaccinations at a medical facility, and she immediately got sick. Then her hair started falling out. I was told her problem was not vaccine related. One month later, she was given a booster to one of the shots and a few days later she nearly died.

Lisa, I’d like to buy your rock.

[David Nieporent]

In all seriousness, let’s suppose the vaccines were to blame. After all, some people do die after being exposed to peanuts. But when that happens, we don’t attribute it to a conspiracy by Big Skippy to Suppress The Truth About Peanut Butter.

[Miss Greenparker]

Mr. Nieporent,

Your reading comp needs some work. What about the fact I mentioned the doctors and specialists said her condition was a result of at least two of her hepatitis shots, but they wouldn't say so in writing?

My daughter was seen by the top experts in Houston who were very smart and lovely, other than their unwillingness to mix it up with the vaccine industry and CDC or help me follow up with their names and diagnoses appended to records. Or, are you saying these men (they were all male) were peanut butter conspiratorialists?

Come to think of it, you should probably do some remedial math, because most people get the fact that 1 + 1 = 2 and not Big Skippy.

Most unimpressive, callous and rude on your part. But such is how it goes on the anonymous net.

[VenerableLurker]

Broadly, your entire comment borders on an argument from authority. Should we also have put trust in the predictive output of Niel Ferguson's modeling? His model predicted that the US would have an order of magnitude more COVID-19 fatalities than we have had, even if we were to employ aggressive mitigating policies - double the fatalities otherwise. People in every profession, no matter how competent they are (or are not), occasionally get things astoundingly wrong. FWIW, Dr. Ferguson had a track record of multiple modeling predictions which were wrong by orders of magnitude, and always in the "sky is falling" direction.

Assuming your qualifications actually are as you list them, then you count yourself among commonly distrusted professions. People frequently seek a second opinion for significant recommendations from their physicians, public Health (your MPH degree) officials tend to adhere to the precautionary principle to a fault while dismissing anything contradictory, and we've all heard the lawyer jokes.

Do I tend to trust EV's opinions? Yes, but not merely because he is an attorney. I trust his opinions because of his track record. By the same reasoning, I wouldn't trust Dr. Ferguson to bag my dog's fecal matter. And you? You are a handle on a formerly libertarian site's comment board. I don't know you. Where have you published your "truth"? (You don't know me, either, but I'm not trotting out my qualifications.)

However, I do know something of the medical/health profession. Ferguson's awful models (read the "cleaned up" source code - I cannot imagine what kind of horror show the original code was, and I've seen some really shit code). The China Study poppylarky. Dr. Sanjay Gupta (of CNN) remaining woefully silent on Chris Cuomo's re-emergence from his fake quarantine. Thekerfuffle over the cause of stomach ulcers. The demonization of dietary fat and cholesterol due to years of flawed studies, with contravening studies being dismissed or outright rejected. Don't even get me started on the subset of medical health study called dietary "science" - if cosmologists had the same lax scientific standards, we'd still think the Sun orbits the Earth. Medicine has come a long way since "humors" were all the rage, but the scientific side of things remains egregiously lacking after centuries of practice.

For those reasons and many others, we're all left to figure this out for ourselves based on available sources of dubious quality and our own imperfect ability to apply rationality to the body of of it. I can't speak for Miss Greenparker, but I won't ignore what you say. However, I won't trust it merely on the basis of your (claimed) academic qualifications. Naturally, I'll take that into account, though.

Insouciant? No, I've just lived long enough to see plenty of brilliant people who are fundamentally misguided or make abhorrently stupid decisions. When those people occupy positions of power or influence, the consequences, often unintended, can be severe and persistent.

[David Nieporent]

His model predicted that the US would have an order of magnitude more COVID-19 fatalities than we have had, even if we were to employ aggressive mitigating policies –

False. It predicted an order of magnitude more fatalities if no measures were taken.

[VenerableLurker]

Come on, these are easily verifiable facts:

https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/failures-influential-covid-19-model-used-justify-lockdowns

From the fifth paragraph at that link: "The model also predicted the United States could incur up to 1 million deaths even with 'enhanced social distancing' guidelines, including 'shielding the elderly.'"

FYI, Ferguson's original predicted US fatality number _without_ mitigations was up to 2.2 million. That article states 2 million; presumably rounding down.

I've got other links with the same numbers, including ones from left-leaning sources you'd presumably prefer.

I'll also note that the vast majority of errors (if we can call them that, and I'm not sure we can) in your posts favor panic and authoritarian responses rather than being balanced (as one might expect from actual errors). Maybe you should reflect on that.

[Dr. Ed]

And what scares me is vigilante justice in response.
Due process is a safety valve on emotion, defeat that and things can get very ugly quite quickly.

[Leo Marvin]

Color me skeptical of "scares me."

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

All fear the Great Clinger Uprising!

Or was it the Great Clinger Awakening?

Or Great Clinger Reawakening?

Or just a bunch of bitter muttering from disaffected, vanquished right-wingers?

[Sarcastr0]

The complete lack of religious accommodations is certainly boneheaded.

But this doesn't seem unwarranted. You gotta cooperate with contact tracing. This isn't about your own choices about yourself, it's about containing an outbreak that threatens the local community.

[Miss Greenparker]

Give up your privacy for the collective good, once the State declares it necessary, no matter how trumped up this alleged vastly more mortal flu has been?

Well, there you go. This is the State model for always legally tracking us all everywhere we go and with whomever we are for the medical good of the community. Many/most/all are already being surveilled in all electronic media to prevent Terrorism(TM) for the good of the community.

Nothing more need be justified. The EU is already trotting out its concept of universal proof of vaccine and ID card. Perhaps proficiency or no with box cutters should be encoded on the cards and chips, too, for the collective good.

[Rossami]

re: "You gotta cooperate with contact tracing."

Uhm, no you don't. There's no legal basis to compel that information.

Now in fairness, this shouldn't be a problem. Most people in a public health crisis want to cooperate. And it wouldn't be a problem now if those same public health officials hadn't squandered all their credibility and goodwill.

[David Nieporent]

Uhm, no you don’t. There’s no legal basis to compel that information.

Are you quite certain of that?

[neurodoc]

@DN Do you think someone I very much doubt is an attorney or knowledgeable about the powers the health departments has to compel cooperation would be so foolish as to make a categoric assertion like that one with nothing to back it up? If you won't take Rossami's word for it, why not ask Ms Greenparker, who is convinced the whole pandemic thing is a "hoax"?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Your default position on almost everything is The State Wins.

It would be interesting to watch you try to articulate any other position.

[Sarcastr0]

That’s not an argument.

Also, I literally criticize government action in my post.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

You gotta cooperate with contact tracing.

Is that an argument? Is it buttressed by any facts, data, chain of logic? No, it is not. It is statist-speak for you gotta do what The State Says, no thinking allowed.

[Sarcastr0]

The logic was in the next sentence after the one you quoted.

If you want law, below someone pointed you to the vaccination cases.

And Prof. Volokh pointed you to the legality of compelling speech in certain cases.

You, on the other hand, just yell about statism and compare this to Hitler or Stalin. Drama is not an argument.

[Dr. Ed]

Because we don't need a 4th and 5th Amendment....

[Sarcastr0]

You don’t think there was due process here? From the OP it looks like there was plenty of evidence.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Due process means pass a law, no matter how dictatorial and unconstitutional, there's your due process.

Hitler, Stalin, all those guys loved passing laws and giving all the due process possible.

[Sarcastr0]

Ni, that is not what due process means.

[Jeff Walden]

Why is lack of religious accommodation boneheaded? (And I didn't see anything in the article or post about religion, so I'm not even sure how religious accommodations are an obvious aspect to consider here.)

It seems to me, the need for accurate contact tracing satisfies even strict scrutiny. You can't get the info any other way. It's not like these people had minders by them all through these events, to accurately report who they interacted with and where. Aand 125K dead (and counting), plus the severity of the lockdown response in vast swaths of states, a response we desperately want to minimize in amount and duration both, makes a compelling interest.

(Not sure, this might be the first time I've found myself to the -- left? none of this is partisan and deriving from principle except I guess descriptively, and stupidly -- of Sarcastr0. Weird place to find myself!)

[Jeff Walden]

Although pragmatically, I think decline-to-state options are possibly a sensible policy response that doesn't burn a ton of political capital and trigger extraordinary resistance. (For example, NYC should have had such rather than not ask new COVID-19 positives whether they participated in mass protests.) But if there's just too much decline-to-state, and for a small insular event there might be, there may be no other option than always requiring an answer.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't think it's unconstitutional (though I don't think that's a laughable argument).

I do think it's not good policy not to include religion when making other exceptions, given the demographics and dynamics we have in this country.

You and I may be able to do solo faith action; not everyone can.

[damikesc]

Illegal search and seizure should be permitted if the state says it is necessary. Good plan.

[Sarcastr0]

It's not illegal - even Prof. Volokh says so.

[David Nieporent]

It's also not a search and/or seizure!

[3ducerist]

Am I wrong that the state can't compel speech? As in, there's no way the state can compel the individual(s) to answer the questions they're asking.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

5th amendment would be superfluous then.

[Eugene Volokh]

The state compels people to testify and turn over information all the time -- that's why we have evidentiary privileges (the privilege against self-incrimination, attorney-client privilege, psychotherapist-patient privilege, and the like): because they are narrow exceptions from the general duty to testify.

[Miss Greenparker]

Doesn't technology change the entire equation between willing testimony and refusal to cooperate? Is there even an option of refusing to yield State- demanded information, when it can be gleaned from personal phone, social media, email logs, texts and tracing apps?

[Noscitur a sociis]

Sure—tooth the extent that someone has voluntarily disclosed the same information to a technology company, that would seem to put the nail in the coffin of the ides that the health department shouldn't find out about it.

[Noscitur a sociis]

Obviously, the second word above shouldn't be tooth.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Ain't that the tooth!

[jubulent]

How is requiring attendees to confirm their attendance at an illegal gathering consistent with the 5th Amendment?

[Sarcastr0]

Because 1) the penalties for being at the gathering are not criminal, and 2) the evidence gathering is an administrative not a criminal proceeding.

I thought you were a lawyer?

[Patrick Henry, the 2nd]

1. That is irrelevant.
2. That is irrelevant.

It is not constitutional, despite the weasel words saying otherwise.

[Aladdin's Carpet]

So, I assume the issue is that Rockland County has a large proportion of Orthodox Jews, correct? Which all tend to gather close together (nothing wrong with that), but it's unfortunate that close contact now means sickness).

So the Jews get it, but they are at a much lower age than the secular population so they should be fine, but then it spreads to the older secular population, and you have a real situation on your hands. Which ... yeah Idk how that can be resolved without playing hardball.

The insularity of the Jewish sector in Rockland normally isn't an issue apart from the anti semitic groups who oppose the increased Jewishness, but it causes trouble when you do need cooperation and they are not trusting or forthcoming. And the open hostility from the NY government certainly is unhelpful. Sigh.

[neurodoc]

Do you know for a fact that those who aren't cooperating are Orthodox Jews?

BTW, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Jacobson v Massachusetts, the 120 y.o. Supreme Court case that allowed compulsory smallpox vaccination. I expect that the health department has more direct and explicit authority to compel cooperation with contact tracing under these circumstances than Jacobson, but if Jacobson is still good law, and I'm confident it is, then it should by itself give the health department all the authority it needs.

Too bad the news article did not give more details to flesh out the story. Who are all these many non-cooperators and why don't the want to help prevent the spread of this very serious contagion?

[Dr. Ed]

And in the 1970's, Massachusetts convicted a couple for fornication. Somhow I don't think that would stand up today.

[Illocust]

The more insular a community the less of a problem they are for spreading diseases to those outside their community.

[Leaf's Chauffeur]

The party in question was in Clarksville, not a jewish neighborhood. Also, wtf-
"So the Jews get it, but they are at a much lower age than the secular population so they should be fine, but then it spreads to the older secular population, and you have a real situation on your hands. "
There aren't tons of old Jews? And Jews don't care about the lives of old people, whether they're jewish or not?

[mydisplayname]

We seem to reconsider public health laws quite frequently and typically reach politically-motivated, not health-motivated, outcomes: for example, consider the evil of quarantines as discussed by Lawrence Gostin (Georgetown University) and Mark Rothstein (University of Louisville) in October, 2014 [Obama Administration]. Going back a bit (to 1856), the conclusion was "To sustain such assumptions is to create in every town in the Commonwealth an irresponsible tribunal whose only rule of action shall be what in their opinion 'the public good requires'." https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/bookviewer?PID=nlm:nlmuid-101466291-bk#page/16/mode/2up

[AmosArch]

We'll just have to accept that this will burn through a large portion of the population and rely on herd immunity. The ship has sailed and people are tired of the lockdown. There isn't anyway to continue the charade for another year and we'll just have to settle for halfarsed hybrid reopening/restrictions at most.We might have been able to contain it more but the 'experts' and officials and media have proven thoroughly that they care about politics above all else and a large portion of the population on both the left and right rightfully don't care what they say an more and will freely riot and protest as they please for the former or go back to business for the latter.

[MD TALHA]

Thanks for sharing this!!

[Doug Huffman]

Consider the plandemic as eugenics in action. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

“Doctor” cure thyself of epistemic trespass.

I will not masquerade. You may uncivilly distance yourself.

[Sarcastr0]

Plandemic.

We got a live one here!

[Illocust]

So most these people are teens right? Just saying, but if about 10 of them would get together and start swearing up and down that whoever ordered the fines, his friends, and his family all attended the party. That would be pretty epic revenge to pull when they still can't nail you to the wall due to age.

[Sarcastr0]

Yeah, lying to screw up the public health protocols sounds pretty awesome.

[damikesc]

Very much does. Screw the jackboots. You owe the state nothing.

[Sarcastr0]

You owe your countrymen respect for their health.

[Ben_]

They owe us freedom from being threatened. But here we are.

When attacked, resistance is in order.

[Sarcastr0]

This isn't an attack. The exigency is clear; the law exists.

You are not being a righteous warrior against tyranny, you're being a self-absorbed knucklehead.

[Ben_]

It's an attack. The government should stop bullying these people. They are innocent.

[Sarcastr0]

You don't like the law they broke, so you declare them innocent. As I said, self-absorbed.

[Ben_]

The "law" they "broke". Government bullies always have a justification ready for behavior that would be condemned by all — except they have badges.

[Sarcastr0]

So...where do you get your idea of what's a real law and what's not?

[Ben_]

No simple answer, of course. Telling government bullies to back off and act like civilized people doesn’t require all of life's eternal existential questions to be answered.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The proprietor seems unable to resist lathering the rubes for sport. This persuades me he is just using the clingers.

[eyeroller]

Sometimes "asking nicely" works pretty well. I wonder if they ever tried that.

[Sarcastr0]

Read the OP. They did, and were met with lying.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

"Alternate facts," Sarcastro. Not lies.

Blessed by The Founders. And our President. And Fox. And Jesus. And Both Corinthians.

[eyeroller]

The key word is "nicely".

[Ben_]

That’s the answer then. Don't like it? Too bad.

And if you already know it's a lie, then asking isn't to find out information.

[Sarcastr0]

Don't be dumb; finding out it's a lie later, and then now knowing who else lied makes contact tracing useless.

Contact tracing is important if you want to reopen the country anytime soon and avoid a bunch of deaths.

Do you care about that? Doesn't seem like it.

[Ben_]

If contact tracing involves bullying innocent people, it shouldn’t happen. Do it without bullying people or don't do it at all.

The 10 to 1 ratio of asymptomatic cases to positive tests means contact tracing is useless for any policy choices anyway.

[Sarcastr0]

You've got more zealotry than sense.

They went to a party they weren't supposed to, and then continue to lie about it. That's not innocent.

Complying with public health ordinances is pretty baseline behavior for living in a society.
Civil disobedience over the bodies of your dead fellows is not actually civil disobedience, it's self indulgence. There are plenty of righteous causes to fight the government on; this is not one of them.

Contract tracing isn't about policy choices, where do you get that? It's about taking a low baseline rate and keeping it low while quarantining the minimum number of people neccessary. It's efficacy is not confounded by asymptomatic cases - contact is contact.
Testing makes it less burdensome (can replace quarantining), but is similarly not required.

So long as Rockland isn't like NYC a few months ago, this has utility.

[Ben_]

I am a zealous defender of the innocent. You got me.

Contact tracing doesn't accomplish much of anything for Covid. There’s 10 people infected for every person you find. Changing that to 7 people doesn't lead to any different policy choice. You will learn this when you catch up in a few weeks or months.

[Sarcastr0]

No, Ben. Look at the case here - they identified a gathering that has potential to be a super spreader. From those who tested positive, they presume everyone was exposed and are asking who went and then tracing their contacts.

Once the gathering was identified, symptoms or not do not matter.

Good lord, read up on contact tracing. You don't seem to know what it is or how it works.
There's a pretty good article that uses Iceland as an example. I think it's in the New Yorker.

[Ben_]

I know exactly what it is. If you pay attention, you will see that contact tracing can find a few cases and prevent a few infections.

But there's 10 or more unknown cases in the US for every known case. It’s a fire that doesn't go out and will keep flaring up. It will happen enough to make contact tracing only slightly, temporarily effective from a public health perspective.

I think this will become clear to people over the summer. Just like it took about two months for people to realize that you mostly don't have to worry about being infected outdoors — after innocent people were bullied in parks and at the beach.

[Sarcastr0]

You keep saying the 10-1 ratio. So what, though? The large changes is generally from superspreader events; get a handle on those and you're going to do much better than if you don't.

Yes, the number of asymptomatic carriers mean there will always be flare-ups. But good contact tracing will blunt the follow-on effects from those flare-ups. That's what it's for!

You know a bunch of things that aren't actually true about epidemiological (versus diagnostic) testing and contact tracing. Here's the article I was talking about, it really gets at the process

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/08/how-iceland-beat-the-coronavirus

[Ben_]

Some improved result from a few events doesn't lead to any different policy choices.

All the policy choices end up being the same.

[Ben_]

Iceland is an island, BTW. Of course contact tracing can work decisively on an island that can quarantine visitors. That's not going to help people living on a continent.

[Ben_]

Also, the "they aren't innocent" argument isn't necessary if you're not trying to justify attacking them.

[Sarcastr0]

You think all fines are attacks on the guilty?

You're weird.

[Ben_]

They are all attacks. Innocents should be kept safe from them. Attacking innocents is evil.

Exceptions could be made for fines agreed to in a mutually beneficial contract that all parties agreed to with no coercion.

[Sarcastr0]

No one lives in your libertarian world. In the real world, making a libertarian stand is advocating for others to die for your own righteousness in your own impractical philosophy.

[Ben_]

Always a justification for attacking innocents. Health panic, moral panic, tribal us vs. them panic, status anxiety, greed, or just plain love of wielding power.

[damikesc]

Just say "I was not at the party but I did leave my phone at the house at some point" and force the state to prove otherwise. Then go with what should ALWAYS be said when the state questions you:

"Am I free to go?" If yes, then leave.

If no, then "I'd like to talk to a lawyer first" and not say another word.

Fuck those javkboots.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Anti-social, uninformed misfits are among my favorite culture war opponents.

And, apparently, they are the target audience of a bunch of right-wing law professors.

[Ben_]

As always, the right answer is to say nothing and tell them to talk to your lawyer. If they're going to use the legal system to attack, that forces the use of the legal system to defend.

Every government effort on anything seems to turn into an attack on citizens. Thanks to Rockland County for showing us once again who our enemies are.

[steeltown lad]

Famously, in many urban neighborhoods eyewitnesses refuse to give any information to the authorities with respect to serious crimes that they may have witnessed, such as, most notoriously, murder. If the law in the current instance can force these teenagers to cough up information about their comings and goings so that contact tracing, of whatever efficacy, can be performed, can that selfsame power be used to force witnesses to brutal criminal violence to relate what they know to authorities?

[David Nieporent]

can that selfsame power be used to force witnesses to brutal criminal violence to relate what they know to authorities?

Um, yes? Did you really think otherwise?

(With the obvious caveat that neither law can literally force anyone to tell anything; all it can do is punish them if they don't.)

[Dan Schiavetta]

At a certain point, “Typhoid Mary” had to be imprisoned. There was nothing else to do, aside from execution.

[Tempe Jeff]

It's helpful, to ascertain that someone IS a carrier first.

[neurodoc]

I responded to Ms Greenpark because she was ranting like a nut case about the current pandemic of this super serious (from multiple standpoint disease). Do you too believe great hoax is being perpetrated on the public? By whom, why, and how? The number of cases and deaths are greatly exaggerated in your opinion? Like Trump, you think thos will all be pver soon enough? Do you favor hydroxychloroquine, UV light. Clorox, or what? Indeed, exactly what affirmative or rebuttal arguments would you make?

I have no opinion as to anyone's modeling and projections. So I'll leave those to you.

Not sure what appeal O made to authority when I replied scornfully to MS Greenparker. She imagined that I was pretending to be a neurosurgeon, and I corrected her as to my relevant qualifications. Take that or believe it as yoi wish, simce nothing I have said depends in any way on it.

Of what relevance is it that this is a generally libertarian blog. Is science amd rationality of less interest to those who hang here than what idipt ideologues have to say. Rand Paul, who has the education to know better wants Tony Fauci to heed Hayek when advising on the pandemic?! But then he (Paul) is a bit of an anti-vaxxer too.

(Contrary to MS Greenparker, Leo Marvin is a very impressive thinker, or at least he was in the old VC days, but he is not my equal when it comes to contumely. He is too nice to seriously contend with me in that arena.

[Leo Marvin]

Nolo contendere, Dr. Contumely.

[Miss Greenparker]

1.  Most opinions, including mine, that consider the strong possibility of this "pandemic" being a hoax, have nothing to do with Trump, IQ, mental health, or Southern racist culture.  The fact is most of us are thinking, non-statist, non-corporatist and non-Progressive/ communist individuals who do not reflexively trust all information and alarum from government and its businesses by extension, to include media.  

We are not passive spectators who can be easily manipulated into a state-sponsored group-think and truthiness.  We assess more independently.  We look around our big cities and see no one we know sickened and dying of Covid.  We personally know doctors who tell the truth-  that this flu is way overblown and their medical facilities are not at all swamped by Covid, contrary to what the media portrays.

2.  Calling those who question the official narrative as crazy and loons is lazy and boorish, even, perhaps, indicative of successful minion and profession programming, subpar intellect, or complicity, at some level.

3.  There are many doctors and virologists who have published and/or who are on the net, mind you they've been censored by Google-controlled YouTube, calling out the falsity of so-called Covid testing, both based on science and their professional experience in hospitals throughout the world.  Further, they claim the numbers of cases and false positives are being wildly skewed to show a "pandemic" and that hospitals are not at all inundated with "Covid", as the hysterical corporate-government news tells us.

4.  There are a number of medical professionals who object to the mask mandate, based both on transmission science and the fact prolonged usage of masks damages people's immune systems, thereby making them more vulnerable to sickness and also to presenting similar respiratory problems that will be called "Covid", though they be occasioned by mask induced oxygen deprivation, acidosis, and one's own germ exhalation and re-inhalation reinforcement cycle.  

The news this week is that Federal and UN health officials are saying masks will be in our future for a number of years.  A number of years.  And so now they are reporting on all sorts of terrible diseases making their way to us from China.  Today it was the bubonic plague.

And why China?  Is the next scheduled World War to start with a contretemps between the US Oceania and China Eastasia over Covid and the black death? Didn't Eric Blair tell us that wars will be started and promulgated on account of engineered diseases, famine, and national insult?  Today's absurd Newspeak, fake news and hysteria, and destructive two minutes of hate are right on schedule, saturating every news cycle. 

5.  One would think libertarian-oriented doctors, lawyers, and other citizens on this particular forum would be more skeptical and engaged in critical thinking, and not reflexively accepting any government and establishment institutional numbers and narratives, especially those that have been used to shut down the world's economy and impose a de facto medical martial law in violation of normal civil rights.  We've not been offered, nor are we demanding as we should, independent assessments and audits of the "facts" being given to us to justify the harsh and destructive measures that all levels of government have suddenly imposed on us that are laying waste to the middle class economy and any sense of constitutional liberties or rights.

No libertarian lawyers here are discussing citizen rights wrt forced testing, tracing, and mandated "vaccinations."  Who's left to advocate for our civil and natural rights not to be physically and forcibly swabbed and injected by the government?  Do libertarians now not only trust government but deny the possibility of its self-interested corruption in the face of contradictory evidence and experience, while saluting the extraordinary anti-liberty measures taken against our freedoms?  The transgressions of 9-11 "security measures" come to mind, as well.  It would seem that new laws and norms to protect us against "terrorism" and "pandemic" will get the lucky ones of us to a very safe, stifled, and trussed up future, while others of us are the proverbial frog dinners adjusting to an increasingly hot pot. The new globalism will impose a most terrible order out of chaos.

6.  Just this morning I heard about a friend's good friend who signed up for a Covid test here in the big city and who had given all of her personal and contact info to the health agents who scheduled a time to test her.  But when she went to her appointment, the facility was closed, which she took to mean that they had run out of tests.  A couple of days later, she was contacted and told she tested positive for Covid.  

This woman didn't take a test, had no symptoms, and had not seen a doctor, and they declared her "positive" via text and wanted to quarantine her and test and quarantine anyone with whom she's had contact for the past three weeks.   None of them would be able to go to work, shop for supplies, or be close to their family members, meanwhile.   Is this a government health contractor scam or just pure evil?  How often has this happened and would we even hear about it in the news?  Given the walls of silence erected by the media, medical, and law government-gatekeeping contractors, we wouldn't hear a thing.

7.  This Pandemic(TM) is about big business and the global new economic-social order.  Chain stores here are already eschewing cash (it's germy!) in favor of credit transactions only.  Soon, a digital currency will be rolled out--  for our medical health safety, please understand.  And we will be forever tracked and traced by Google-Apple quasi government for our own good, of course.

8.  Mandated testing and forced "vaccinations" on account of State and WHO declared medical emergencies du jour is our future.  To not comply, to not believe the official facts trotted out by government and its corporate media will be considered stupid and treacherous, if not illegal and treasonous.

But the beta testing's been done, successfully.  They've counted on the willing minions and dumbed down ones to pathetically insult and try to shame those who question the contradictions and outright falsities of their official and corrupt narratives, and the results haven't been disappointing. 

Why be so afraid of the skepticism and questions, especially when nearly all of us don't know anyone with "Covid" or see people dying in the streets?  The answer here, apparently, is to shut up, loons and Trumper red-neck clinger crazies, and wear your masks as you're told.  As to adhering to "science and rationality," you've got to be kidding. You're the most government genuflecting and incurious lot of "scientists and rationalists"  an alleged libertarian blog could host.