Free Trade

Is Trump's Trade War on China Good for America? A Soho Forum Debate

Stephen Moore and Gene Epstein debate whether or not President Trump's Chinese trade policy deserves broad public support.

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President Trump's trade-related initiatives against China deserve broad public support.

That was the resolution of a public debate hosted by the Soho Forum in New York City on February 4, 2020. It featured Stephen Moore of the Heritage Foundation and Gene Epstein of the Soho Forum. Comedian Dave Smith moderated.

It was an Oxford-style debate, in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and end of the event; the side that gains the most ground is victorious. Moore prevailed by convincing 21.51 percent of audience members to change their minds. Epstein convinced 13.98 percent.

Arguing for the affirmative was Stephen Moore, distinguished visiting fellow for the Project for Economic Growth at the Heritage Foundation. Moore is also a senior economic contributor for FreedomWorks and the founder of the Club for Growth.

Gene Epstein argued for the negative. Epstein, former economics editor of Barron's, is co-founder and director of the Soho Forum.

The Soho Forum, which is sponsored by the Reason Foundation, is a monthly debate series at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village.

Produced by John Osterhoudt.
Photo: Brett Raney

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  1. Interesting. It’s as if people don’t like their ideas stolen and sold back to them with slave labor and perhaps we should be skeptical of trading with countries who steal their people’s organs and create bioweapons that threaten the globe.

    1. As far as I know, no company has done business in or with China except by choice. And no company continues business there, even after real and intellectual property theft and other questionable actions, except by choice.

      Sorry, but I don’t want to spend American blood and treasure so that GM can sell Buicks in China.

      1. But, but, but China weaponized the common cold! They force us into buying cheap, plastic crap that nobody wants! Every worker there is a slave! Only Trump can save us from the Chinese Menace! Aaaaauuggh! Trump is awesome! He has proved himself to be a true libertarian by taxing imports and restricting immigration! Best president ever! We need a statue of him in every town square! No more elections! Make him king! King Trump! King Trump! King Trump! If you don’t agree you’re a leftist anarchist! King Trump!

        1. …China weaponized the common cold!

          So that’s why I have the carniverousvirus.

          1. Apparently, so do the squirrels.

          2. ITT, I own sarcasmic and he cries and runs away again.

        2. You make it easy to be smarter than you. Which you admitted I was. And that post proves it.

      2. I love this site. Where else could I could I go to have people argue in favor of trading with human traffickers and concentration camp runners. How many organs will you allow china to harvest and sell before you take a stand? Must we wait until its your organs?

        1. Damn straight! No trade with China! The last thing we want is for them to become wealthy enough to leave those practices behind! Fuck China! Fuck their prisoners! Let’s restrict trade with them until they revert to feudalism!

          Trump 2020!

          1. Do you have any arguments that arent false dichotomies?

            1. Do you have any opinions that aren’t predestined by Trump?

              1. Aww look you’re crying again.

          2. “Fuck their prisoners! ”

            By suggesting that we not perpetuate slavery we are hurting the slaves. Got it.

            1. Slavery was commonplace until societies became rich enough for it to be economically unviable. Societies are enriched by trade. Cutting off trade to a country that allows slavery only prolongs slavery in that society.

              Freedom produces prosperity and prosperity produces freedom. Trade with poorer countries increases their wealth and makes freedom more profitable than repression.

              You want to promote freedom? Promote free trade!

              /no sarc

              1. “Cutting off trade to a country that allows slavery only prolongs slavery in that society.”

                Are you fucking retarded? This has been proven historically wrong, period. Apartheid ended because we boycotts them you fucking ignoramus, not because we traded. No no, go ahead and stupidly speculate about counter factual because you loved a single theory from a fucking book you barely understood. Meanwhile, in the real world, where people are capable of thinking like adults and not 14 year old sarcastic mean girls…

                “You want to promote freedom? Promote free trade!”

                Except we did and China is still awful.

                So, you lose. Realpolitik FTW.

                1. Apartheid not equal Slavery

                  Thank you for playing.

                  1. “Apartheid not equal Slavery”

                    Lolwut?

                    Add apartheid to ge growing list of shit you know dick about.

                    And… Notice he didint argue the point that a boycott stopped it.. Because he knows he’s wrong.

                    1. This is why sarc is always resorting to childish sarcasm. He makes a point, that boycotts make onerous situations worse not better, then gets confronted with a direct refutation from the real world, and HAS NO INTELLIGENT ANSWER.

                      So, he sarcs. Clown nose on.

                  2. “Apartheid not equal Slavery”

                    Because you’re very stupid, and have not apparently read any books on the subject, Apartheid was simply the extension of the slave/caste system previously in place, but with ownership of the slaves being transferred from individuals to the government.

                    Thanks for letting me win another one on you.

                    1. Hey look, right here, whee I crush his stupid “they’re not exactly THE SAME” attempt to avoid being wrong, he posts… Nothing.

                      Because he knows I’m right and his “apples ain’t oranges” deflection is meaningless.

                  3. I suppose I’m flattered that you think that highly of me.

                    Still, apples ain’t oranges.

                    Now go upstairs and have a snack. Your mom smells like cookies.

                    1. “Still, apples ain’t oranges.”

                      Then explain what difference makes slavery immune to the pressure that ended Apartheid.

                      It’s your point. Try to make it instead of petulantly whining because I own you.

                    2. “I suppose I’m flattered that you think that highly of me”

                      Lol that’s why it’d funny, you think it’s a compliment lololol

                    3. Right. No one expected you to make a cogent argument, and you obliged.

                  4. Sorry, Sarcophagus: YOU LOSE!!!!!

                2. Yes. He is retarded.

    2. You are free to change your spending habits so that they conform to the dictates of your conscience.

      You are not free to impose the dictates of your conscience upon everyone else via government force.

      Get it?

      1. True libertarians force their beliefs on others! True libertarians impose restrictions on trade and immigration! True libertarians love Trump The Great! If you don’t you’re a leftist anarchist! Aaaaaauuugghh!

        1. Thank god we have libertarians to stand by and watch people be put in concentration camps and have their organs harvested. You’re truly making the world a better place. I can’t believe libertarians don’t get more votes with ideas like “mass murderers should be able to trade like everyone else”

          1. To be fair, it’s Muslim terrorists they’re putting in concentration camps and criminals they’re harvesting organs from, so it’s all nice and legal and who am I to judge the morals and ethics of a foreign culture?

            It’s like if the Ayatollahs declared a fatwa against some heretic who happens to live in Chicago, it wouldn’t be my place to complain if they launched a drone missile at an apartment building in Chicago, we’ve already established that drone-striking criminals in foreign countries after they’ve been sentenced to death in absentia is perfectly legal.

          2. I am sure if I searched your comment history, I would find plenty of comments of you defending Trump against accusations that he is too friendly with strongmen like Kim Jong Un and Putin. Hopefully you will get the irony here.

            1. I’m not. I think youre lying and he never did that.

              But go ahead and prove it instead of just claiming it.

            2. Trump, the guy who sanctioned Russia?

              You must mean Obama, the guy who made promises post election

            3. By the way, feel free to waste your time going through my comments. I’ve said plenty of dumb stuff. I’ve also had actual conversations with Jeff, changed my mind on plenty, and I’d have no issue admitting so. Standing up for Chinese Muslims wasn’t something I thought I’d ever do.

              What I won’t do is pretend like the Chinese communists are all fine and dandy and all we have to do is keep letting them steal from us and enslaving people and the problem will solve itself.

              Grow up Peter Pan there’s no utopia to be had.

        2. The belief that you should be able to pretty much do whatever you want so long as you extend that same right to everyone else.

          That is pretty much the libertarian end game. The only ‘no’ is that you don’t get to take that right away from anyone else.

          That’d be forcing complete freedom on everyone.

          I’d be all for forcing that belief on everyone.

      2. I’m so glad that Jeff is here to defend the worlds largest violators of the NAP. What are you getting out of this? Are you on the waiting list to receive a harvested brain?

        1. Hell yeah! People only support freedom in principle because they’re getting paid by the wealthy! If you want free trade with China it’s because you hate them and want them to die!

          Trump 2020!

          1. It isnt free trade now dumbfuck.

            1. O!
              M!
              G!

              Like… I didn’t know that and stuff!

              1. And yet you Motte and Bailey it like it is fucko.

                1. He’s looking up Motte and Bailey now.

                  1. You do not instill me with curiosity.

                    1. That explains why you know so little and I frequently have to point out how you’re completely wrong

        2. So the government should be the moral trade police and decide who is worthy of being traded with and who isn’t. Got it.

          1. The government should enforce property rights, yes.

            1. So the American government should enforce Chinese property rights? Who knew you were so much of a globalist.

              1. That’s not responsive.

          2. Who in the real world, and not your globalist utopia, is holding people accountable for violating the NAP?

            From where I stand, you’d happily let the market determine its fine for people to harvest other people’s organs, so long as there’s a willing buyer.

            1. Don’t you dare throw around the NAP here. It’s not like you give a shit about the NAP. You are only using it as a cudgel.

              From where I stand, you want the government to be the nation’s moral policeman. Who knew you were such a so-con.

              1. The comments have been taken over by right wing trolls. Last administration’s trolls are gone.

                I wonder if they are the same people sometimes.

                1. Ryan in particular has declared all us libertarians to be essentially little more than autistic clowns. It is plainly obvious he is only using libertarian-sounding arguments as a cudgel to beat us all up over it. He doesn’t give a shit about the NAP. He would violate the NAP all day every day in his ideal form of government. For him to now pretend he is so interested in the NAP is the height of duplicity.

                    1. Right but youre a whiny idiot so… Yeah.

                  1. I’m using your own argument to beat you with, yes. You don’t give a fuck about human rights or you’d acknowledge that China is clearly one of the largest abusers of human rights in the world.

                    You’d allow me to buy harvested slave organs because of principles or something. Utopian indeed

                    1. You are using a hollow caricature of my argument. You know what also violates the NAP? Governments preventing people from engaging in voluntary trade. But here you are pretending like you are making some principled argument. You offer nothing but bad faith demagoguery.

                      If you are so concerned about human rights in China, then exercise your moral judgment and decide not to do business with Chinese companies.

                      You’d allow me to buy harvested slave organs

                      Slavery itself is a violation of the NAP. This is ridiculous.

                    2. “You offer nothing but bad faith demagoguery.”

                      Pretty rich from the most dishonest poster on this board.

                2. “The comments have been taken over by right wing trolls”

                  EVERYONE IS RIGHT WING TROLLS AND AGAINST YOU lololol what a fucking clown

      3. Why go after the mob for reselling stolen goods, it’s a free market! What idiocy.

        China theft does 2 negative market actions, increases costs for IP originators and reduces R&D. But please pretend consumer choice for cheap goods is all that matters.

        1. You don’t want to buy goods from China? Then don’t buy goods from China. But don’t dictate that choice on to everyone else.

          1. Jesse could not go 5 minutes without using something made in China.

            1. And you couldn’t go five minutes without being on funny or posting a non sequitur

      4. So Pedo Jeffy, had you been alive during WW2, and American, you would have a problem with restrictions on trad with Axis countries?

      5. Crap Is…

        Trying to tell the world that, “You are not free to impose the dictates of your conscience upon everyone else via government force.”

        Even when — Your conscience wants to FORCE taxpayers to subsidize your purchases and steal other peoples IP property and borrow your purchase on the federal debt all the while manipulating the trade medium.

        UTTER CRAP; !!!-Justice-!!! just so happens to be the very #1 reason the government even EXISTS!!! And the Constitution gives the federal government the power to establish justice with foreign entities..

        Watch out for the new manipulation tactic of calling Justice an act of anti-freedom.

        1. Free Trade =/= Individual Freedom.
          … just like ….
          Free Healthcare =/= Individual Freedom.

          And only a wildly criminalistic person would try to make such an association.

    3. Holy shit, this is how far Trump has warped the Republican Party. We now have the Heritage Foundation, FreedomWorks, and Club For Growth arguing against free trade. The silver lining in all this is that maybe, just maybe, we can convince libertarians to stop trying to think of conservatives and the GOP as some kind of natural allies.

      1. Fuck, the first five minutes is Stephen Moore fanboying about meeting Trump. Jfc.

        1. Stephen Moore doesn’t even understand elasticity of demand.

          1. Then he’s like you and being funny.

      2. We now have the Heritage Foundation, FreedomWorks, and Club For Growth arguing against free trade.

        For those that didn’t listen to the debate, the above is a straight up lie.

        1. We knew that already based solely on who posted it.

          1. True.
            And I don’t know about the others, but fuck Club for Growth

      3. You’re going to have so much success convincing people to be libertarian with ideas like “harvesting slave organs and trading them is not a violation of the NAP”

    4. No word on whether China’s trade war on America is good for America.

  2. As Trump is now the best President in US History (thanks to Democrats), Trump has set a precedent that using tariffs to get trading partners to lower trade restrictions can work.

    #MAGA

    1. There’s no precedent.

      Trump only got it done because he’s a God Emperor.

  3. I love Dave but clean up it guy this isn’t the legion of skanks

  4. I propose we tear down the statue of Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, and replace it with a statue of Trump!

    Trump understands that Wealth of Nations is leftist propaganda, just like Unreason!

    True economist, like Trump, know that free trade must be bilateral! Taxing imports makes us rich! Self sufficiency is the path to prosperity!

    Trump 2020!

    1. I know, right?
      If autarky worked, North Korea would be the richest country on the planet.

    2. True economists love violence against women and children. That’s where the real money’s at, great profit margin.

      1. Damn straight! Trade with them would make them wealthy enough to stop doing that shit! Wealthy societies don’t have those problems! Fuck China! Keep them poor by restricting trade!

        Trump 2020!

        1. Yes china is poor because of trade restrictions.

          Yikes

          1. China would become wealthier without them. As would we.

            1. Hey look you stupidly think a book you like is reality.

    3. Smith supported tariffs in regards to unfair traders…

      1. Smith was a terrible economist. See here.

        1. Well we’re not the one sucking his dick

    4. Adam Smith:

      “The case in which it may sometimes be a matter of deliberation how far it is proper to continue the free importation of certain foreign goods, is, when some foreign nation restrains by high duties or prohibitions the importation of some of our manufactures into their country. Revenge in this case naturally dictates retaliation, and that we should impose the like duties and prohibitions upon the importation of some or all of their manufactures into ours. …There may be good policy in retaliations of this kind, when there is a probability that they will procure the repeal of the high duties or prohibitions complained of. The recovery of a great foreign market will generally more than compensate the transitory inconveniency of paying dearer during a short time for some sorts of goods.”

        1. So he’s right and you’re wrong but you don’t like it so you cry “cherry picking”

        1. Oh hey look you’re quoting someone else again because you don’t understand the subject matter

          1. Yep. I Ike to refer people who say it better than me.

            1. Yes, that’s fairly common amongst people like you who read but don’t understand. It’s not a good thing.

    5. I propose you stop sucking people’s dicks just because you like what they said

      1. But who will take his place as attendant of his local glory hole.

    6. You’re an ignorant clown.

      Adam Smith was in favor of both retaliatory tariffs and tariffs to offset local taxes on production.

      Trump is in line with Adam Smith on tariffs. Reason is in line with Koch Industries.

      Tariffs to offset local taxes on production.
      Wealth of Nations, pg. 356
      https://ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf

      “It will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign industry for the encouragement of domestic industry, when some tax is imposed at home upon the produce of the latter. In this case, it seems reasonable that an equal tax should be imposed upon the like produce of the former. This would not give the monopoly of the borne market to domestic industry, nor turn towards a particular employment a greater share of the stock and labour of the country, than what would naturally go to it. It would only hinder any part of what would naturally go to it from being turned away by the tax into a less natural direction, and would leave the competition between foreign and domestic industry, after the tax, as nearly as possible upon the same footing as before it.”

      On Retaliatory tariffs as a negotiating tactic.

      “There may be good policy in retaliations of this kind, when there is a probability that they will procure the repeal of the high duties or prohibitions complained of. The recovery of a great foreign market will generally more than compensate the transitory inconveniency of paying dearer during a short time for some sorts of goods. To judge whether such retaliations are likely to produce such an effect, does not, perhaps, belong so much to the science of a legislator, whose deliberations ought to be governed by general principles, which are always the same, as to the skill of that insidious and crafty animal vulgarly called a statesman or politician, whose councils are directed by the momentary fluctuations of affairs.”

      1. For national defense as well:

        https://ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf
        There seem, however, to be two cases in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of do-mestic industry.
        pg 355

        Case 1
        The first is, when some particular sort of industry is necessary for the defence of the country
        pg 355
        Case 2
        The second case, in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of domestic industry is, when some tax is imposed at home upon the produce of the latter
        pg 366

        1. It’s sarcasmic and I’ve busted him doing the same thing before, where he cites an author to argue from authority, but then clearly demonstrates that he never actually read the author’s work.

          1. To cut sarcasmic some slack, the right wing of the Globalist Uniparty has been pushing cartoon market economics and history for decades, and those cartoons are taken as holy writ by the professional propagandists of the Right.

            “Globalist propagandists say they’re for Adam Smith, therefore Adam Smith must be for Globalist propaganda.” Oops. But we can’t read everything.

            I don’t blame random schmucks in comments section much for believing lies pushed for decades. Easy mistake to make.

            But Reason writers have no such excuse. They’re the #EnemyOfThePeople who lie for a living in service to the ruling class. They choose to ignore facts and arguments incovenient to their cartoon propaganda.

  5. From a Koch / Reason libertarian perspective, economic policies are deemed successful if and only if the richest people on the planet are rapidly accumulating additional wealth. Let’s see how the Drumpf economy is performing by that metric in 2020.

    Jeff Bezos is up $15.6 billion.
    Bill Gates is up $6.1 billion.
    Bernard Arnault is down $6.6 billion.
    Warren Buffett is up $170 million (basically a rounding error).
    Mark Zuckerberg is up $3.29 billion.
    Amancio Ortega is down $2.24 billion.
    Larry Page is up $7.63 billion.
    Sergey Brin is up $7.35 billion.
    Steve Ballmer is up $9.16 billion.
    Carlos Slim is up $4.65 billion.
    Larry Ellison is up $3.62 billion.
    Charles Koch is down $1.74 billion.
    Julia Flesher Koch is down $1.74 billion.

    Clearly this is a record of abysmal failure. Only 9 of the global top 13 have made money this year. Unacceptable!

    #DrumpfRecession
    #WorstEconomyEver

    1. Koch lost money = Evil!

      Koch Profits Uber Alles!

    2. Koch should have invested better.

  6. I object to calling this conflict “Trump’s Trade War’. China has been waging a trade war on US (and the rest of the West) for decades. One can disagree with Trump’s decision to fight back in the way he has, but It isn’t HIS war; it was here when he got here.

    1. “It’s only a trade war when Whitey does it.”

  7. Whether or not Trump’s trade war with China is good or bad is something that history will decide. It’s the same with all wars, there’s always the unintended and unforeseen consequences.

    Defeating Hitler certainly seemed like a good idea at the time, but to the extent that Stalin and the Soviet Union reaped the rewards of conquest, it wasn’t as clearly a good thing as it might have been. We might have been better off to work out our own non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany – give us back the West and you can head East as much as you want. Who knows if Nazi Russia would have been worse than Communist Russia? Or maybe the eagle and the bear might have killed each other. I just know that Russia under Putin isn’t quite done yet with one side of the question.

    To the extent that trade with China enables China to develop their military and their expansionist programs, cutting off trade with China might be a cheaper form of warfare than bombs and troops and aircraft carriers and millions of dead. The problem is that the choice between war and peace isn’t an easily reproducible experiment you can run multiple times to determine an optimal outcome. You just have to wait and see what happens next.

    1. An embargo is an act of war, right? The point is to raise the cost of imports because that causes harm to the people who use them. But when your own government does it through tariffs it becomes an act of benevolence? Really? Think about it.

      1. I’m not saying it’s an act of benevolence, I’m explicitly calling it an act of war. Wars have costs, whether or not the cost is worth it can only be determined afterwards. Nobody knows what the hell Trump thinks he’s going to get out of the deal*, despite the fact that plenty of people here are augurs who claim to be able to divine the meaning of the random shit that falls out of his face, and nobody knows what we’re going to get, either.

        Well, we know it’s going to be strong, powerful, fantastic, unprecedented, historic, bigly, enormous, and only Trump could have done it.

        1. A trade war is the equivalent of a government imposing an embargo on itself. It is an act of war on itself. It is a government waging war against its own people. Restricting trade makes a nation poorer. Sure it’s done with taxes instead of warships, but it’s still equivalent to waging war against itself.

          1. Now do income and payroll taxes

            1. Now do red herrings and non sequitur.

              1. He got you. And your response was weak AF.

                1. Oh come on Dickwad! That was a good one!

                  1. Weak

                    A

                    F

                    You got owned.

            2. Reason: Free trade is when American workers pay payroll and income taxes, while Emperor Xi pays no tax on his slave produced exports to the US.

              “Libertarian Moment”

  8. I try to buy American made stuff whenever possible even if it’s more expensive because in my experience the quality and the satisfaction of keeping it in America make it worth it. Now I’m careful with my beliefs and I’m not some freak about it like the Trump trash.

    1. I don’t buy anything from China I might put in my mouth or let touch anything I might put in my mouth. Lead poisoning is bad enough, I have no idea what those other heavy metals and toxic wastes might do that’s even worse.

      I also don’t buy anything from China that I would have to rely on to not break in order to defeat the effects of gravity. Pot metal is cheap and easy to make but it doesn’t make good screws or bolts or hanging hardware and when the second floor of your house falls into the basement you’re going to have a bad day.

      1. Where is the aluminum you use to make your hats produced?

        1. Oh hey look you’re back to clown nose on

      2. Totally agree with this. Most metal coming out of China is total junk. Never buy tools or fasteners made in China.

        1. This is true, but I still have a lot of Chinese made tools. Sometimes when it’s something you only need occasionally then “good enough for now” is sufficient. I also keep some of those in my work bag. I’m often in a position where it’s easier to abuse and misuse the tools to get the job done. It’s also less of a problem if they get lost, rusted, or broken. I treat my good tools better and usually leave them at the house

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  10. Gene Epstein got crushed in this debate. He came off like a smarmy high school debater with a terrible sense of humor.

    1. beltway libertarians are progressives who can count

  11. Just listened to Gene on Dave Smith’s podcast where they discussed this debate. Gene did a great job the first time I heard him team up with Tom Woods to take out John Fund and some other guy on the Fed back at Freedomfest in 2009. And I normally agree with Gene but not here. Without a “Gene” dissertation…my issues with trading with China are the following:

    1. Free trade depends on both sides not subsidizing, putting tariffs, and most importantly not pegging to each others currency. Without a gold standard..all trade is political based on internal “winners” and “losers” and who hold political power. China pegs.

    2. The most beneficial recipients of massive trade deficits with China (besides the commie govt who can get those pesky peasants into dense urban cities where they can be forced to work at below market wages and controlled) is the US Govt. We all know how this works..the Federal Govt runs massive deficits to buy votes..they need someone to buy the debt so they convince the Fed to create a ton of debt/credit with artifically low rates…Americans can buy more stuff on credit and with the Chinese pegging..Chinese goods are very cheap..and then the Chinese Govt has a “glut of savings” which they buy US debt with. Trading with China guts our own industrial base and benefits the govt elites on both sides of the pacific.

    As usual it is the central banks and govt which are the problem.

  12. For those who want to completely dismiss “Fair Trade” for “Free Trade” in your position — why not START with “Free Trade” right here at HOME??? Why are you only positioned to give foreign entities “Free Trade” while entirely dismissing this nation??????

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  16. What a disappointment. Gene has argued exceptionally well with socialists, but here he’s emotional, polemic, and ill-informed.
    For starters, a good portion of Gene’s argument has simply been that Trump is “a bloviating ignoramus.”
    Second, Gene seems to know nothing about US trade and business conditions in China. No mention of the JV laws. No mention of foreign firms facing competition from SOEs. No mention of the fact that every major bank in China is govt-owned, so favored domestic businesses get loans while foreign ones don’t. No mention of mass media in Chinese, which is also all state-owned. No mention of the unfair playing field a foreign firm faces in China, where the executive is a life-long appointee, the legislature is rubber stamp, and the judiciary consists of judges and lawyers who are all Party members.
    Last, die-hard libertarian Gene’s hopes are all pinned on an internatl institution – the WTO – bringing China to heel.

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