The Problem With DeSantis' 'Stop WOKE' Act
The state can't really banish ideas, and it's dangerous to try.
HD DownloadOur institutions have been infected by "the woke mind virus," Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) told an audience at the National Conservatism conference in Miami this September. "Some of these big corporations are now exercising quasi-public power."
Is it time to fight fire with fire? To wield government power to stop a dangerous ideology from destroying America's vital institutions? DeSantis thinks so.
"We're not just going to sit idly by if you're trying to circumscribe people's freedoms," he said in the same speech. "And that's true if it's government. It's also true if it's big business."
DeSantis, a likely presidential candidate and favorite of the conservative movement, seeks to jettison the libertarian idea that the government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of private business.
Earlier this year, DeSantis and Republicans in the Florida Legislature retaliated against Disney for opposing a state law prohibiting the discussion of sexuality and gender identity in kindergarten through third-grade classrooms. Critics attempted to make the new education law a national issue and dubbed it the "Don't Say Gay Act," and DeSantis' communications team responded by routinely calling the law's critics "groomers."
Now DeSantis, who declined our interview request, has signed into law the Individual Rights Act, which he formerly referred to as the Stop WOKE Act.
A U.S. District Court judge struck down part of the law on First Amendment grounds. That portion of the law prohibited private companies from holding any mandatory training that "espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels [employees] to believe" eight concepts, such as that "members of one race, color, sex, or national origin are morally superior to members of another race, color, sex," and that your inherent characteristics make you "inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive."
It also banned trainings that promote the idea that these characteristics determine one's moral status as privileged or oppressed or mean that you bear personal responsibility for past injustices, that concepts like "merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist," or that trying to be colorblind and treat people without regard to race is wrong.
Banning workplace trainings that tell people that their race or sex makes them morally culpable might sound reasonable to many Americans. A recent Rasmussen poll found just 29 percent of Americans think corporate diversity trainings actually improve race relations.
But opponents say laws banning a broad set of ideas set a dangerous precedent.
The state made the concepts "seem terrible," says Jerry Edwards, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, who is challenging a separate part of the law that applies to universities. He calls the bill a "wolf in sheep's clothing" because anytime a government bans broad categories of speech, it gives politicians the ability to define the terms of acceptable discourse. This, he says, should be concerning to Americans of all political stripes.
"If you're a person who's conservative and you agree with the idea that that affirmative action is wrong, if you give the state the power to say that you can only hold that belief, you also give them the power to say that you can't hold that belief," says Edwards. "We can't allow the state this power to regulate speech."
The left also craves state power to impose its cultural preferences. Nation writer Jeet Heer recently tweeted that we should use state power "for good," like expanding the scope of civil rights law and defending the LGBT community. "The only objection to DeSantis," Jeer wrote, "is that he wants to use state power to push big business to do bad things."
Of course, from the perspective of DeSantis and his allies, the Individual Rights Act is an expansion of civil rights law meant to force businesses to do what they think is "good" for Americans, in this case by removing identity politics from mandatory workplace trainings.
But the more power politicians have to determine which type of speech is good and, therefore, legal and which type is bad and, therefore, illegal, the more the sphere of acceptable discourse is likely to shrink as both sides of the political spectrum hem in those boundaries to promote their subjective notions of the "common good," a phrase that's become a guiding principle of the new brand of national conservatism that's aiming to both refine and expand upon the populism that former President Donald Trump injected into the GOP.
"The state should not be banning ideas," says Edwards.
LeRoy Pernell, a law professor at Florida A&M University (FAMU), a historically black college and plaintiff in the ACLU's case challenging the higher education component of the law, says that this amounts to the state attempting to "control thought."
"That [kind of control is] reminiscent of societies and governments that we supposedly fought wars against," says Pernell.
The part of DeSantis' law that hasn't been struck down pertains to universities that receive state funding. It bans college professors at such colleges from promoting any of the eight forbidden concepts.
Pernell is afraid that the law will outlaw discussions of systemic racism, which he says is part of FAMU's institutional history. The state created the law school in 1949 to accommodate two black law students who applied to the racially segregated University of Florida. In 1966, the state forced it to cease admitting new students until former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a law to reopen it in 2000.
Pernell worries that if instructors were to characterize that history as "systemically racist," they'd run afoul of the law's restrictions around teaching the concept.
"I do now live with the idea that at any moment, the state can come and take negative action against me because of my thought," says Pernell.
Pernell also worries that the law would prohibit him from teaching material from his own book about systemic racism in the U.S. legal system, a book that denies the premise that racial "color blindness" is a useful concept.
"It is impossible to understand criminal procedure and understand the issues that arise in criminal procedure without understanding that the history has not been colorblind," says Pernell.
But the state has argued that it does have a say over what's taught at taxpayer-subsidized schools.
"Teaching kids to hate their country and to hate each other is not worth one red cent of taxpayer money," DeSantis said in March 2021.
Pernell's response to the criticism of race-conscious instruction is that it's"just silly" and that "to understand that there are racial differences" is not "a negative thing" because "different races, different communities bring different things to the table."
You might disagree with Pernell. Maybe teaching law students to celebrate racial identity and differences isn't the best use of classroom time. But the relevant policy question is not what goes on in the classroom, the boardroom, or the break room, but who gets to decide?
"Diversity is good for business in many ways," says Sara Margulis, who co-founded with her then-husband Honeyfund, a business that administers online cash wedding registries in Clearwater, Florida. She is a plaintiff in the case against Florida, which argues that the law restricts the freedom of business owner to provide diversity training seminars to his or her employees.
DeSantis' office declined our interview requests, but a press representative responded by email that because the concepts covered in mandatory trainings are "forced on employees as a condition of employment," they are "designed to force individuals to believe something" and "adopt a certain proscribed ideology" and, therefore, "the law is designed to prohibit forced indoctrination in these concepts because doing so is discriminatory" under Florida civil rights law.
But Honeyfund's attorney Shalani Agarwal of the nonprofit Protect Democracy says the existence of civil rights law implies the opposite: Anyone who feels personally targeted by a diversity training workshop is already protected.
"Our current employment discrimination law that preceded the Stop WOKE Act already covers hostile work environments," says Agarwal, whose argument was supported by the judge who ruled against the state. When an employee faces persistent, offensive comments related to his or her identity in the workplace, that employee can file a harassment claim under current civil rights law. But Agarwal believes "the Stop WOKE Act creates a whole set of pretty flimsy and vague standards that make it kind of impossible for an employer to figure out how to proceed."
In practical terms, the state can't really banish ideas. It can make people more hesitant to speak openly and honestly through threat of punishment, which might be an effect of the Florida law. But hampering real communication that way makes solving hard problems even harder. And there are a lot of hard problems left to solve.
Some so-called "woke" ideas really are pernicious because reducing every injustice to an identity-based formula flattens nuance, cultivates grievances, and can create tension where none existed before, as borne out by studies that find diversity training quite often makes people more prejudiced. This simplistic and counterproductive approach only further clouds our view of real solutions and real progress.
But is the situation really so dire as portrayed by political operatives like Chris Rufo, who stood beside DeSantis as he introduced the law and who calls critical race theory and similar teachings "neo-Marxism"?
Even some libertarians have come to look at the issue as a high-stakes fight against communism. The Libertarian Party's official account tweeted that "Soon, parents will be required to help enforce the state's Marxist, queer theorist, critical race agenda at home. Parents who fail to adequately indoctrinate their kids will have them taken away."
And when you believe you're fighting an existential domestic threat, it can justify all sorts of very un-libertarian, authoritarian behavior. The party account defended Joseph McCarthy while approvingly quoting anti-woke academic James Lindsay saying it's "time to deal with American communists for real."
Communism was a serious enemy of human prosperity throughout much of the 20th century, and politicians were right to be concerned about Soviet infiltration of the U.S. government. But McCarthy in the Senate and the Committee on Un-American Activities in the House went overboard in their hunts for communist spies, eventually expanding the scope of the search to target actors, writers, poets, musicians, and teachers.
And we're not even talking about Soviet espionage here, which is what kicked off McCarthy's crusade. We're talking about professors teaching what they believe college students need to hear, and employers training their workers in ways they think will help create a more harmonious workplace, virtue signal to customers, and, ultimately, help their bottom line.
We're talking about a state government regulating the free exchange of ideas. That is a bigger threat to our liberty and to American values than "wokeness" ever will be.
This isn't the way to "stop woke." Does that mean opponents have to just roll over and take it? After all, as conservatives will point out, the progressive left has no problem using civil rights law to push its ideas into the workplace and onto the college campus. Why shouldn't the American right pick up that tool and use it for its own ends?
One reason for caution is that sharpening a legal tool can be fatal once your opponents have the opportunity to turn it against you. Instead, you could be blunting or even dismantling it. If existing laws are part of the problem, limit or repeal the laws. Also, build, improve, and support alternative institutions, ones that reflect your values. Don't work for or buy from companies that disrespect you or attend colleges that spend a lot of time on issues of little value. They'll get the message. Some already are.
If you think woke ideas should be stopped, be wary of shortcuts. The long, hard path is the one more likely to bring enduring change: Criticize, resist, and, when need be, opt out.
Correction: The text has been edited to note that Sara Margulis co-founded Honeyfund with her "then-husband" and that they are no longer married.
Produced by Zach Weissmueller; edited by Danielle Thompson; graphics by Thompson. Sound editing by Ian Keyser.
Photos: Douglas R. Clifford/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Daniel A. Varela/TNS/Newscom; Stephen M. Dowell/TNS/Newscom; Michael Brochstein/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Paul Weaver/Sipa USA/Newscom; John-Marshall Mantel/Polaris/Newscom; BONNIE CASH/UPI/Newscom; Karla Cot/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Stephen Zenner/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Paul Hennessy/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Image of Sport/Newscom; Joe Burbank/TNS/Newscom; Daniel A. Varela/TNS/Newscom; James Borchuck/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Megan Jelinger/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Stephen Zenner/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Circa Images / Glasshouse Images/Newscom; DPST/Newscom; Chris Sweda/TNS/Newscom; University of Florida Archives, CC-BY-SA-2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Scholarly Commons @ FAMU Law; The American Legion Digital Archive; St Petersburg Times/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Amy Beth Bennett/TNS/Newscom
Music: "IX" by Angel Salazar via Artlist; "Now You Know" by Angel Salazar via Artlist; "Day Drunk" by Amparo via Artlist; "More to the Story" by Charlie Ryan via Artlist; "Waves and Pulses" by Evert Z via Artlist; "Lost" by Generation Lost via Artlist; "It Was Time We Let Go" by Stanley Gurvich via Artlist; "X" by Angel Salazar via Artlist; "Renewal" by The David Roy Collective via Artlist; "Killing Time" by Stanley Gurvich via Artlist
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It is so good to see Reason fighting against the Civil Rights act and defending the rights of Nazis and other anti-semites to spread their message through society through captured institutions. Bravo.
If that is not what you're defending then you're just marxist progressive hypocrites working selectively against individual liberties to further leftist authoritarian ends.
But McCarthy in the Senate and the Committee on Un-American Activities in the House went overboard in their hunts for communist spies, eventually expanding the scope of the search to target actors, writers, poets, musicians, and teachers.
I'm not sure if you read your followup history on this period but it turns out McCarthy was actually right about everything.
Facts = misinformation.
Kiss your $2,500 goodbye.
I think you mean "kiss your $8B of market cap goodbye, paypal!" LOL
Vanguard and Blackrock are cool with it. The feds will top up their losses and anything for ESG.
If those fags at PayPal confiscated a single penny of my money I would roast the all alive in court. I would find the sleaziest, most aggressive class action lawyer and squeeze them for every possible dollar I could get out of them.
sounding more everyday like McCarthy had a good crystal ball and saw what the communists would do to the country
McCarthy was actually right about everything.
So George Marshall really was working for the Chinese?
To be fair, he was about 45 years too early.
"Everything" seems a bit much. As Square = Circle suggests, McCarthy did make some outlandish accusations that simply weren't true. But, yeah, his basic premise was right, if his tactics didn't exactly prove out.
McCarthy was much maligned. He was an American hero. We need a thousand Joe McCarthy’s now.
He still tended to go rhetorically overboard. Which is why you have instances like Goldwater trying to help him out so much. He believed in his general crusade, but McCarthy became his own worst enemy. I think his story is almost a Greek tragedy. He became wrapped up in his own excesses and damned what was a good cause against a real enemy.
Which, I think is relevant to our modern age.
Though, speaking of being right on everything. I'm a biography of Goldwater now and I continue to stand-by him being right on everything. Even on the stuff of his I disagree on.
"I'm a biography of Goldwater now..." How did this happen?
If McCarthy accused a dozen communists trying to subvert our country and two innocents of being communists trying to subvert our country, he should have known the media would have focused on the two. And the media, largely sympathetic to the communists, wouldn't frame it in terms of the injustice of false accusations. Rather, they framed it as objectionable to have a problem with communists trying to subvert our country, in itself. In that sense, in addition to the obvious objections to false accusations, he probably did more harm than good.
Generally, the objection wasnt just that he accused people who weren't actually communists, he chilled the speech generally of people who had left wing ideas (at the time which included things that are now considered mainstream) and lumped them all under the same basket.
To make an analogy to those who cant get past their partisan lens,. it would be like if during WW2 and its lead up there really were Nazi spies but anyone who had any conservative ideas came under general suspicion and put on lists.
McCarthy was a huge alcoholic, even by DC standards of the day. This made him sloppy and he made mistakes, like not keeping a muzzle on Roy Cohn.
Evidently Zach’s never heard of Vasili Mitrokhin.
The Sword and the Shield I believe, an excellent read. McCarthy was right.
The BS that was fed to the 3rd world by the KGB about the West is astounding. My stand out is the lie that HIV/AIDS was developed in a germ warfare lab in Maryland.
He was for mean tweets even before they were invented.
I can't figure out who is a Nazi anymore. According to the left, the right is Nazis. According to the right, the left is Nazis. Apparently, we've got more Nazis in the US now than Germany had in 1939.
That or the culture war is completely over baked.
According to the left, the right is Nazis. According to the right, the left is Nazis.
Left: He's white and thinks Western Civilization isn't the greatest evil ever to consume the planet. That makes him a Nazi and we punch Nazis in the face.
Right: Isn't the government seizing control of private companies and institutions the textbook definition of fascism? I don't know exactly what we should do about it, but we should probably do *something*.
Sure, bowf sidez.
Social Justice is neither literally just called the left Nazis in the comment I replied to. If you're going to try and gaslight people, maybe try it in a different comment thread where people can't instantly see that what you're saying is bullshit because it is, indeed, "bowf sidez" as you call it.
IT'S RIGHT THERE. YOU CAN SCROLL UP AND READ IT.
Criticism of the right means you're a leftist, and criticism of both sides means you're a leftist. The only possible way to prove you're not a leftist is to be critical of the left all the time while praising the right all the time. Anything else and you're a leftist.
But constant defense of the left doesn't make you a leftist. Just making sure all of the garbage positioning is put out there.
Only if you feel (I say "feel" not "think" when the conclusion is irrational) that criticism of one team equals defense of the other.
I "feel" like you missed the word "constant" in my comment. But well done improperly reading my comment in order to justify the response you wanted to write.
I criticize the political right because I expect better of them. They're the half of the duopoly that is supposed to champion freedom. So my criticism is rooted in disappointment. I'm never disappointed with Democrats because I don't expect them to have any morals or principles.
Yet, you can't see how criticizing one side only and always mocking those on that side doesn't remotely demonstrate your true position?
If you want people to do better, constantly mocking them and playing your tired schtick over and over again ain't the way to get that done.
My true position, eh? Why don't you tell me what that is. Because if I told you you'd call me a liar. Let's just skip that part so I don't waste any effort.
I just told you my "true position," which is disappointment in the right for abandoning their principles and morals, and becoming more and more like the left that they hate.
If you think that means I support the left then I don't know what to say.
This is the part where you ignore what I say and continue to claim I support the left, because that's what the hive says you're supposed to think.
I swear you guys are just like leftists. You ignore what people say, believe whatever the hive tells you, and lash out at anyone who says different.
I don't support the left. I despise the left. My contempt for the right is rooted in how they are becoming more and more like the left that I despise, not because I support the left.
Now go back to your little hive for reprogramming. I fully expect you to continue claiming I support the left as if this comment doesn't exist, or call me a liar for disagreeing with the hive.
Poor sarc.
My true position, eh? Why don’t you tell me what that is.
You just now told him. He was actually taking you at your word on what your true position is and telling you that your daily interactions with people are not making your true position clear.
He was actually taking you at your word on what your true position is and telling you that your daily interactions with people are not making your true position clear.
So what I just said doesn't matter. You've made up your mind and what I tell you about what I think doesn't matter.
Go back to the hive. You're exactly like the leftists you despise. The only difference is what you want controlled and by whom.
So what I just said doesn’t matter. You’ve made up your mind and what I tell you about what I think doesn’t matter.
WTF? What part of "He was actually taking you at your word on what your true position is" leads you to "So what I just said doesn’t matter. You’ve made up your mind and what I tell you about what I think doesn’t matter?"
Go back to the hive. You’re exactly like the leftists you despise.
I don't despise leftists. I'm not uncommonly accused of being a leftist myself. You're just showing that while I'm listening to you and taking in good faith what you say your position is (I have never once, in 15 years on this site, called you a "leftist" or accused you of supporting Democrats), your knee jerks straight to telling me I'm a leftist-hating hive-minded authoritarian.
Inquisitive Squirrel is also resoundingly not some far-right wackaloon, which anyone with even a passing ability to distinguish people from one another would know, but is indeed being 100% accurate in pointing that you yourself are guilty of most all of the things you accuse other people of all day every day. Stop picking fights with people and you'll find yourself engaged in fewer fights.
Square = Circle - I'm sorry. So used to being attacked I get defensive. My bad.
Jesus, dude. You need to take a chill. I explained to you why people perceive you as being on the left and you go off on three different responses.
I never claimed to state what you think or feel (nor will I), and your continued fall back on that claim to play the victim card is not helping.
I’m simply pointing out that all you do here is mock people on the right, defend everything the left does, and then get angry when people think you are a leftist. This isn’t hard. So, if you want people to know what you truly think, then let them. If they mock you for being on the left or right, screw it. But don't just attack one side and defend the other without making clear why you are doing it. Otherwise, it comes off super tribal.
Except for the part where I defend what the left does.
I never defend the left. Ever. I’ve challenged the trolls to come up with a single statement of mine where I defend or praise the left, and nobody has ever come up with one. They dredge shit up from years ago about this, that or the other, but no praises for Democrats or defense of the left.
The only possible explanation I can think of for people to say I defend the left is because I don’t call them out. But what am I to call them out on? They don’t claim to have any principle or morals. I’m supposed to say “Hey, you’re better than this” to the left? Better than what? Swine?
Edit: I don't want this to be a diss on swine. I heard about this movie called "Magnificent Beast" and it's all about how pigs are magnificent. Haven't seen it yet. I'm sure by the time I'm done I won't insult swine by comparing them to leftists.
Sarc always bitches that criticizing the right doesn’t make you a lefty, but ignores the fact that constantly running cover for the left does.
ML cheeps "tu quoque! tu quoque!" like a little bird because it's the equivalent of a mating call on these comments.
I love how you behave exactly like the people you try to condemn.
Who am I condemning? I'm not the one who constantly attributes false arguments to people by name, expecting them to defend themselves before calling them liars.
Your entire tired schick of screaming about people complaining that Reason isn't politically right enough is all about condemning.
No point in me having a conversation with someone who tells me what I think and calls me a liar when I disagree. If I wanted that I'd go back to middle school.
But you are a liar, Sarcasmic. A big one... and a whiny troll.
And for fuck sake, learn what "tu quoque" means. At this point I'm almost certain that you're misusing these terms deliberately.
By calling me a liar you then pick and choose which things I say are true or not, so you can paint whatever picture about me you want.
Hopefully people are smart enough to see through your bullshit. I know most will eat it up hook, line and sinker.
"Hopefully people are smart enough to see through your bullshit. I know most will eat it up hook, line and sinker."
You're not smarter than most, sarcasmic. In fact it's safe to say you're probably the dumbest guy here, and that's going up against guys like Sqrlsy and TJ2200.
And when I point out your bullshit, what do you do? Call me names. Juuuust like middle school. Bravo dude. Bravo.
But he didn’t tell you what you think? He described the manner in which you post/comment.
“TJ2200”
Alright ML, let’s calm down a bit here.
Your entire tired schick of screaming about people complaining that Reason isn’t politically right enough is all about condemning.
Is it? Pointing out unfounded condemnation is condemning? Really?
"I condemn this person!"
"Uh, I think you're condemning them unfairly."
"How dare you condemn me!?"
You're not being fucking condemned, you utter moron.
I'm labeling you an idiot, a fool, halfwit, bonehead, cretin, ignoramus, imbecile, muttonhead, pinhead, simpleton, etc. It's a statement of fact, not condemnation.
You're really too stupid to play here, try 9Gag =======>
You viciously troll most commenters here, then cry foul like you’re the victim. You made your bed. You. Not anyone else. You’re broken alcoholic wreck by your own admission. You remind of a former friend who would constantly dish it out, and then whine and cry like a little bitch anytime someone fired back at him.
Responsibility begins at home. Or in your case, that refrigerator box in the alley where you reside.
When was the last time I named someone in a comment that wasn't in response to something they said directly to me?
When was the last time I wasn't named in some thread with some bullshit leftist argument being attributed to me?
And you say I'm the one condemning people?
Yes, you condemn quite a bit. Again though, you don't seem to read what I write. I didn't say others aren't guilty of that. Quite the contrary. Rather, I am pointing out that your hatred of everything you listed still doesn't stop you from engaging in the exact same behavior.
Hatred? Really? You're really bringing me back to being a teenager, with people telling me what I think and calling me a liar when I say they're wrong.
If that's your goal then you're doing a great job. Probably racking up a lot of points too.
When was the last time I named someone in a comment that wasn’t in response to something they said directly to me?
Depends on whether or not you're referring to specific people with phrases like "Mean Girls" and "Trumpaloos." It seems like you are, honestly.
Depends on whether or not you’re referring to specific people with phrases like “Mean Girls” and “Trumpaloos.” It seems like you are, honestly.
When I say "Mean Girls" I'm describing adult men with the maturity of teenagers who get together to call someone names rather than engage what they actually say.
If people take that personally that is 100% on them.
“When was the last time I named someone in a comment that wasn’t in response to something they said directly to me?”
Today, yesterday, the day before that, every day last week, the entirety of the last month, the entire year before that.
For fuck’s sake, Sarcasmic. Booze has absolutely destroyed your short term memory, hasn’t it.
Also, it's not "Mean Girls" if you are the one starting fights and throwing the first punch. You're the bully, Sarcasmic. Not the victim. You just pick fights with people who can kick your ass.
And when I say "Trumpaloos" or something similar, I'm talking about dumbasses like the drooling followers of Obama who shouted "Racism!" when someone criticized his policies. Only they shout "TDS!"
Again, if someone takes that personally that's on them, not me.
Today, yesterday, the day before that, every day last week, the entirety of the last month, the entire year before that.
Ummmmm, no? You're making shit up again. I can do a vanity Control-F on most articles and you or one of your girlfriends will be refuting some argument that you claim I made.
What you won't find is me invoking your name out of the blue like a troll fishing for attention.
Also, it’s not “Mean Girls” if you are the one starting fights and throwing the first punch.
I don't go around naming you personally. If you are offended by what I say and react by attacking like an animal, then I think you're the one with a problem.
"I can do a vanity Control-F on most articles and you or one of your girlfriends will be refuting some argument that you claim I made."
Then do it, you lying fuck. And don't you dare run away.
"I don’t go around naming you personally."
You're constantly referring to "ML" and "the Canadian". Your either lying or you have the memory of a goldfish.
Is this the part where you furiously look through comments to find some stray one where I mentioned you so you can claim it refutes your daily invocations of my name?
Not constantly. Not by a long shot. Especially not compared to you and your friends bringing up "lying jeffy, sarc and White Mike" day after day after day after day after day...
My point, Canadian, is that you can't comprehend that criticism of your team doesn't equal support for the other.
It does not compute.
So when I say "I criticize the right because they're supposed to be the half of the duopoly with morals and principle, while I expect nothing from the left" you read "I love the left! I hate the right! I've got TDS! I put vodka on my cereal!"
This little fact will blow your mind: I don't eat cereal.
Then do it, you lying fuck. And don’t you dare run away.
Run away? If that's what you call it when I don't engage with trolls who talk shit about me trying to goad me into defending myself from their lies, then I'll keep running away from you a lot. A fucking lot. Lots and lots and lots.
Run away? If that’s what you call it when I don’t engage with trolls who talk shit
Four whiny, drunken posts one after the other making sob stories and delusional accusations, is hardly what I'd call not engaging.
And you still failed to provide any evidence to back up the lie I challenged you on.
What a piece of shit you are.
Sarc, this whole thread is a prime example of your whiney, bitchy shitposting. Your one pal here is Chemjeff. Think about that.
Right: Uh, they actually did punch people in the face, actually did burn businesses to the ground in violent, politically-motivated demonstrations, actually did instruct private businesses how to regulate free speech, actually are trying to groom children in schools and employees in the workplace, actually are holding political prisoners and conducting show trials. Whether they’re Marxist, Nazis, or other, that’s pretty terribly anti-liberty.
n00bdragon: Yeah, but somebody called somebody else a Nazi on the internet! BOWF SIDEZ!
It’s right there. You can scroll up and read it without shouting.
The left is a lot closer to Fascist than Nazi. Fascism bears a lot of resemblance to American Progressivism. The establishment right isn't much better.
I think that perhaps the biggest problem with calling everyone Fascist is that few people know what it actually means and you never know what someone means when they say it. It doesn't help that Fascism and Nazism are constantly being conflated. So I generally try to avoid the comparison.
Fascism is a collectivist, anti-capitalist, totalitarian ideology, but not inherently concerned with race. Nazism (as an ideology) adds to fascism ideas about racial divisions and collective action based on race.
It seems to me that the American left is actually fairly well-described by the Nazi variety of fascism, not just plain fascism.
I wouldn’t call them anti-capitalist. They believe in the use of capital, just as long as all the people in control of the capital are members of The Party.
Anti-free market.
Which actually is closer to fascism. The fascists tended to collaborate with corporations (corporatism) rather than simply take over the means of production (as did the communists). Of course, this collaboration was more along the lines of "work for/with us or go to the concentration camp" so in the end, it's not much different than merely taking over the means of production. It's how you got such things as IG Farben in Germany working closely with the Nazi Party.
It seems to me like the basic ingredients of fascism involve the government controlling a capitalist economy by working in close coordination with large corporations and labor unions in an attempt to make capitalism and socialism live together in harmony.
As R Mac notes, definitely capitalist, definitely anti-free market.
No, fascists are not "capitalist". Capitalism doesn't just mean "the economy uses capital" (even socialism does that), it means that capital is used for the private benefits of capitalists. Both fascism and socialism oppose that. That's why they are anti-capitalist.
That describes the government of every major nation on Earth. The relationship between corporations and government may be more formal in some countries than others, but the relationship definitely always exists, even when it isn't formalized into law.
No, they are not just anti-free market, they are more broadly anti-capitalist.
Capitalism is any economic system in which the owners of capital (the capitalists) use their capital for their personal benefit. Free market economics is one such system, but not the only one.
Fascists, socialists, and progressives believe that capital ought to be used for the collective benefit of society. Socialists achieve that through state ownership, while fascists and progressives achieve that through government intervention and regulation.
On the “libertarian” housing or zoning whining. Here is everyone’s favorite temporarily embarrassed communists:
https://jacobin.com/2022/10/yimby-movement-social-public-housing-bill-california-darrell-owens-left
The YIMBY movement, funded policy research by Cato, endorsed and promoted by Reason, is officially the policy of Marxist revolutionaries. They’ve finally figured out that the private sector has to borrow and build before they get to rent control, no evictions ever, indefinite rent forgiveness, community banks, no credit lending and mandates on private owners .
Strange bedfellows, but there it is, in writing.
IMHO, Jacobin are less Marxist revolutionaries than they are shills for the Democrats who use Marxist language.
That's a distinction without meaning because Democrats have become (neo-)Marxists.
Identity politics driven socialists...you have a more succinct summary of the driving ethos behind them both?
Yes, and correctly so: the ideology and history of the American left is closely linked to fascism and eugenics. It is so closely linked that calling them "Nazis" is only slight hyperbole at this point.
I fail to see the "gaslighting".
Because there’s an angels hair width of daylight between the two.
Jewish leaders in Ukraine are Nazis nowadays.
Well, fortunately, such questions can be answered through reason and facts, by looking at history and the writings and ideas of the different movements.
Fascism is a collectivist, anti-capitalist, anti-Christian, progressive ideology derived from socialism. Nazism added to that ideas about race derived from the eugenics movement.
The Democratic party platform and progressive ideology are closely related to fascism and Nazism, both historically and ideologically.
Republicans and conservative ideology are, and have always been, the enemies of fascism and Nazism.
Naziism/fascism is a right-wing belief system. The equivalent authoritarian systems on the left would be Marxism/communism.
As Geiger Goldstaedt mentions, people use "nazi" as a generic slur. However, any polysci textbook would drop it firmly on the authoritarian right. (Even though Nazis called themselves "socialists," which was just a marketing scheme for their version of fascism.) Neo-nazis do exist, of course, and they still march and demonstrate here in the US which is how we got the infamous tiki-torch brigade in white polo shirts.
It was more than just a marketing scheme for a brand of fascism. Remember, the Nazis created companies that they controlled, the most prominent being for the production of the KdF Wagen, now Volkswagen.
However, any polysci textbook would drop it firmly on the authoritarian right.
Any polysci textbook that's aligning all historic political movements on a two-poled axis can be safely tossed aside as irrelevant to the actual world.
Fascism was explicitly a compromise position between laissez faire capitalism and socialism. That's one reason the Germans called it 'National Socialism' - this was specifically to distinguish it from the international socialist movement being led at the time by the Soviet Union.
It's only "right wing" in a way of thinking that already takes centralized authoritarianism for granted and is only negotiating the details of how much market capitalism will be allowed to exist.
Most polysci books ignore the actual history of fascism. It originated literally from socialist principles. Italian fascism has its ownership from a split in the socialist party and was devised to save socialism. It would be liked claiming the GND is authoritarian right simply because not every socialist supports it. Musollini wrote about it often. He was an avowed socialist.
Naziism/fascism is a right-wing belief system. The equivalent authoritarian systems on the left would be Marxism/communism.
Wrong. You're parroting that dumb political left/right chart that you saw in middle school, which was established after World War II, and was influenced by comm-symps in the government who were pissed at Hitler for violating the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
There's nothing implicitly right-wing about fascism, not even the fact that it fought communists in Spain and in World War II (hell, even Franco wasn't "fascist," he was a monarchical traditionalist who was devoted to both the church and the military as the bulwarks of Spanish society. The left absolutely hated him for effectively preventing their entryism for the 40 years he was in charge). Fascism and Naziism were socialist-based systems that were national in character rather than globalist. That's the only real difference in both style and substance.
The opposite of communism isn't fascism, it's anarcho-capitalism.
The idea that Nazism/fascism is "right wing" is left-wing propaganda. By any objective criterion, Nazism and fascism are largely indistinguishable from other left wing ideologies.
Right wing ideologies are monarchism, theocracy, and libertarianism, all ideologies that both fascists and socialists are extremely hostile to.
No, it isn’t, you fucking twat. The rivals to the Nazis were the communists. If you look at their platforms, there was little difference in how they would govern, other than a focus on German nationalism as opposed to sublimation to global communism based in Russia. The real conflict was over who would be in charge.
But then, you’re an ignorant leftist propagandist.
Hahahahahahahaha, that’s like shrike levels of stupid.
I partially agree but I think the easiest place to start the discussion is in Berkley, preferably in one of their "jew-free" spaces
preferably in one of their “jew-free” spaces
^ this is not a thing.
The funny part is, there’s a pretty substantial number of people (at least online) who are happy to identify as Nazis, and they don’t want anything to do with either the left or the right.
Apparently even Nazis have standards.
I came to post exactly this. If the Civil Rights act prohibits discrimination based on race, then Wokism is clearly illegal to act on. If you want to argue that people being racist is none of the government’s business, then argue against the Civil Rights act. Trying to have it both ways is, well, racist.
"The state should not be banning ideas," says Edwards.
Well, the law doesn't ban ideas -- under the rubric of long-established civil rights laws, it bans instruction of certain insidious ideas. Ideas will exist regardless of laws, best expressed as, "as long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in schools.
But as long as we think the state should not ban ideas....
Like the idea that only men and women can make a marriage?
Or the idea that black people are collectively, intellectually inferior?
Or the idea that Jews are evil and participate in an international cabal?
Or all the "ideas" that lie behind hate crime laws?
We could play this game all day. Whether something is an "idea" or not doesn't help us on the question of whether a law should be made about it.
All of those are ideas you are legally allowed to express.
there is no way any corporation would be allowed to require being indoctrinated into those ideas as a condition of employment.
^--- This. It is absolutely forbidden to teach these ideas at a company, unless you want to be sued into bankruptcy. The Stop Woke Act is merely one additional box to be checked in the litany of viewpoints that cannot be expressed in a corporate setting.
OK but all are socially unacceptable. In any case, revert back to Step One and apply your statement to it:
the law doesn't ban any ideas. So wtf is Edwards talking about?
Any idea can be banned. Just turn everyone into an emotional idiot with the cognitive skills of a lizard. Politics is a wonderful arena for that to happen - but it ain't politicians that are to blame
There is nothing more hilarious than watching JFear hypocritically complain about emotional idiots as he tries to emotionally lump others into groups he emotionally dislikes, and dismiss with emotional fictions about what they really must be thinking. Because nothing says reason and logic like ad hominem.
Not quite.
It bans businesses and public services from forcing people to learn those ideas.
If you want to, on your own, learn all the things the left wants you to learn, you're absolutely free to do it.
But the left doesn't get to force people to learn their dogma at the expense of their education --or their livelihood.
Is it time to fight fire with fire?
Well, there are other ways of fighting fires, but Reason has been a stalwart supporter of letting the undergrowth grow thick by supporting Section 230 and defending a one-sided implementation of 3rd party doctrine. So, even if now is not the time to fight fire with fire, Reason seems hell bent on pushing it to that point.
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A U.S. District Court judge struck down part of the law on First Amendment grounds. That portion of the law prohibited private companies from holding any mandatory training that "espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels [employees] to believe" eight concepts, such as that "members of one race, color, sex, or national origin are morally superior to members of another race, color, sex," and that your inherent characteristics make you "inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive."
In California, employees are FORCED by law to endure 1 hour of sexual harassment awareness training PER YEAR.
How is this different? If anything it's WORSE than the De Santis move (because it compels employee indoctrination rather than prohibits employee indoctrination). Those who just want to be left alone will always lose to those who want to win. Fight fire with fire. You have to go on offense at this point against the woke Bolsheviks.
That does seem worse. Though the FL law also seems pretty problematic from a 1st amendment perspective.
Laws against (verbal) sexual harassment or hostile work environments do not seem to be "problematic" from a 1A point of view, according to our courts; it is hard to see why laws against racist and Marxist indoctrination at work would violate the 1A.
I'm giving my interpretation of the law and constitution, not discussing existing precedent.
A plain reading of the 1A clearly prohibits only Congress, not state governments, from limiting speech. It is only precedent created by the courts in the early 20th century that even raises the question of whether the 1A applies to any state law. So, you are discussing "existing precedent", but apparently you are doing so rather selectively.
Furthermore, corporations are artificial legal entities created by states in the first place, granting substantial benefits like limited liability to these entities in return for promises to perform specific functions. States can certainly withdraw those benefits if the corporations don't fulfill their functions.
From a libertarian point of view, such entities shouldn't exist in the first place, so it's hard to argue that such entities should be protected from state interference.
By that reasoning, is there any regulation or requirement for corporations that isn't within a state's power?
Under an originalist reading of the Constitution, there are almost no limits on how states can regulate corporations.
In practice, it's mostly state law and political considerations that limit the use of the "corporate death penalty", but it has been used on occasion.
Not unless the specific state constitution says something about limiting that state governments power.
I have some questions about the prudence of it as well. I still think School Choice is the ultimate move for things like this. Public schools are a major problem in many ways, and at least one indication that it's a bad idea is how weird the jurisprudence around it has become. It feels like it's because, at it's core, it's a weird place for government to be in at all.
If it can be done right. The way it is now, many private schools are already captured and the ones that aren’t are explicit targets of activists for colonization.
Many states are already balls deep in the process of regulating, subsidizing, and picking the winners in the private education market.
What potentially could happen is wokeys in “private” schools, get the luxury of activist government regulation, while simultaneously being able to hide behind the 1st amendment when it comes to the extremes of their cult indoctrination.
SF Bay Area private schools are if anything even more woke than the public shitholes.
SF Bay Area private schools are if anything even more woke than the public shitholes.
^
Although, in fairness, they're more coherent and consistent about it than the public schools, where half-understood talking points are repeated phonetically and discussion is punished.
I think DeSantis was on strong grounds forbidding state employees from trafficking in Woke nonsense. As an employee of the state, you do not have a first amendment right to use your agency for any political axe you want to grind. And DeSantis is within his power (with the legislature) to make that a condition of employment in the state. Full stop.
So that brings us to private institutions. The Libertarian position ought to be that the government cannot forbid speech or association one way or another. So that means all civil rights legislation is immoral from libertarian perspectives. I welcome people to convince me otherwise, but it seems that people ought to have the right to associate with anyone they want, and that includes merit but also could include racist or bigoted beliefs.
But. The courts have said that there is a compelling interest for the government to prevent racism and bigotry in the work place. Civil Rights legislation that forbids racism in the work place is legal and enforced, so the question is what a libertarian ought to do about it. I come down on DeSantis's side here. If Racism must be banished, then all racism- including reverse discrimination/racism.
Tactically speaking, I don't think DeSantis should have signed this legislation for private companies. I think it would have been better to set his AG on suing companies that create a hostile work environment for whites/men/etc with this CRT nonsense- under existing federal and state law.
Agreed.
Can you imagine the heads exploding if he had chosen to go that route?
Unfortunately it seems he is positioning himself for the 2024 primaries and is choosing to take the more hard line routes in certain issues.
I disagree since it is now funding and banking industries to force corporations to adopt these trainings. It is the basis of ESG scores.
I also favor states balancing individual rights over corporate rights when large corporations collude in a manner against individuals.
What the law actually says is the following:
Subjecting any individual, as a condition of employment, membership, certification, licensing, credentialing, or passing an examination, to training, instruction, or any other required activity that espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels such individual to believe any of the following concepts constitutes discrimination based on race, color, sex, or national origin under this section...
That doesn't sound like banning ideas. It sounds like banning the training in those ideas as a condition of employment. Now, you might object that that's an undue interference in the free market. But, it's certainly not banning the ideas. And it seems odd (to be gentle) to claim, in an article arguing that banning ideas doesn't make them go away, that the proper means for the advancement of ideas should be the prospect of personal ruin for not adopting them. And, if this is an undue infringement in the free market, it's hard to argue that the general body of employment law (including non-discrimination law or laws against sexual harassment, as just two examples) isn't.
It sounds like banning the training in those ideas as a condition of employment.
that's exactly all it is and would normally be fully supported by journo shitlibs if it were directed at ANY possible right wing thought. Training your employees on the value of low regulation environment? Bad. Training your employees on becoming color-blind and focusing on merit only? Bad. Training your employees to watch out for subversive trannies trying to undermine the instutution of the family? Bad. Journos would be applauding this bill like clapping seals.
But the slightest crack in the Cathedral and they lose their shit.
“And it seems odd (to be gentle) to claim, in an article arguing that banning ideas doesn’t make them go away, that the proper means for the advancement of ideas should be the prospect of personal ruin for not adopting them.”
This gets to what Reason is missing with all of these culture war issues.
Wokeism is a cult and should be treated like one with deprogramming for the cultists.
It should be destroyed utterly. Their entire organizing principle makes them an existential threat. Destroy them before they do the same to us.
American rights > democrat lives
Seek help.
It's definitely a tough spot. It would be monumentally helpful to rid the country of woke extremism and garbage. But I just can't get behind government imposing speech codes. Nothing good comes from it.
It is more insidious for them to do it through large market actors under the guise of ESG.
It shouldn’t be approached as a speech prohibition. Instead, place practical ground up obstructions against those sorts of polices, possibly through workers’s rights. Or something in that direction.
Sounds like DeSantis is biggest problem is the counts at reason never read the laws, or his statements. The go solely by what the cancers at the wapo and nyt tell them
They follow what the Blue Checks on Twitter tell them to think.
As much as I despise the stupid diversity indoctrination training stuff, forbidding it in private companies doesn't seem like a proper power of the state. It's not too different from other anti-discrimination laws, but those are largely bad too.
Banning this kind of crap for public employees seems quite appropriate, though.
The state has already MANDATED this kind of training in many instances. The horse is out of the barn on this one. There is no "just let them do waht they want" optioon because the woke Bolsheviks have already taken the reins.
forbidding it in private companies doesn’t seem like a proper power of the state.
I get your point. That said, I have yet to hear much of a thorough discussion from folks about the alternative to, or even much of a discussion on, what I'll call "cross-compulsion" to federal compulsion. I'll frame it this way. Imagine the Donald Trump won in 2024 and got a law passed that, to be employed, people had to take a public oath to help Make America Great Again. And let's say California and New York forbid companies from requiring employees to take such a pledge. Would they be out of line? And, if so, what alternatives exist for the state governments to protect their citizens? I mean, I guess they could go the straight nullification route. But, I suspect the same people objecting here wouldn't be much fans of that, either. And, in an age of national markets, it would probably be a lot less effective.
"Imagine the Donald Trump won in 2024 and got a law passed that, to be employed, people had to take a public oath to help Make America Great Again. And let’s say California and New York forbid companies from requiring employees to take such a pledge. Would they be out of line?"
The smart approach is obviously to remove the unconstitutional law requiring the oath. That's the key difference: opposition to a law. If a corporation decided to require an oath of making America great again a condition of employment, that's their right. and the states forbidding the pledge would be out of line.
Private companies aren't doing this because they want to, they are doing this because they are forced to, by ESG, regulatory overreach and government-funded activists. This law merely compensates for those abuses of power and lets companies focus on what their corporate charters actually say they should be doing.
And woke indoctrination at work does create a hostile work environment, just like sexual harassment and racism do.
You can't judge laws in isolation. We live in a social welfare state with numerous, complex relationships and arrangements between workers, businesses, owners, and the state. In isolation, many laws we have are fundamentally incompatible with libertarianism and individual liberty. But that does not mean that abolishing any one of those laws in isolation increases liberty. Often, abolishing just one of these laws without also abolishing others amounts to cronyism or special favors for some group.
If you pile enough wrongs on top of each other you eventually get a right?
Whoosh!
Regulating what corporations may and may not do is a normal part of business in the US. It's not libertarian, but I don't see anything morally "wrong" about it.
In this case, it's a state fighting back against tyrannical and corrupt federal intervention in its affairs, and that certainly isn't wrong.
I'm not convinced that private companies in general are being forced to do the DIE stuff. Some have been doing it for a long time. Many don't do it at all. I think it's more slow institutional capture driven by lots of idiot woke bitches going into HR.
In any case, I think the way it stops is that more employees grow a spine and refuse to participate in bigoted, divisive training.
Well the same argument was being made for Civil Rights legislation in the past, right? If it is wrong to be a racist corporation, then employees won't tend to work there. But that didn't happen, right?
So what are we to do? I'd be happy with removing compulsion overall. But if we are going to compel people to be colorblind in the work place, I don't see why it is wrong to clarify the law to say that colorblindness needs to go both ways- it is wrong to discriminate against blacks, and wrong to discriminate against whites.
Yeah, sure, it's not too different from any anti-discrimination law, as I say above. So sure, in that context it's not so far out. But one of my basic premises is that private entities should have freedom of association and I'm not going to support adding more laws that violate that principle.
Right now, it’s being subsidized by international finance, who just so happen to be aping word for word things like the UN’s Agenda 2030. They’re not “forced” by overt government coercion. Instead, they’re being leaned on by international entities like blackrock who are using gabillions in potential investment dollars as leverage. Entities that only exist in the form that they do thanks to governments world wide, who have rigged it for them in return for “help” in the private sector.
I don’t think libertarianism is going to survive without some sort of deeper answer to the corporatism conundrum.
Right now, DEI at my work (ahold/delhaize) is massive, but at this stage relatively innocuous for your grunt, front line employees. They offer name tags with pronouns, etc. But there is zero reason to think it’ll stay that way.
My company got as far as demanding your vax status be put into a database just before SCOTUS knocked down the federal mandate. I don’t trust them for shit.
Hopefully some SCOTUS decisions are coming down the pike that will bundle this under previous employment legislation.
Until then, in the spirit of having states be laboratories for how to deal with it all, I think it’ll be good to have a few attempt to regulate a solution. Especially considering the precedents already exist, if they were actually applied fairly.
This.
Libertarians need to recognize the only nexus of power is not purely government but any major market actor with a close nexus to government. Both can limit your rights. One from overt government force, the other from social and economic harm.
Companies with any nexus to public dollars are in fact being forced to adopt under the guise of contract rules in many instances.
"The Stop the Wrongs to Our Kids and Employees Act"
Once again, can we please get politicians to stop backwards-planning the names of their shit to get the acronym they want?
Ah yes, the Stop Totally Useless People In Doing Acronyms 'Cause Really Only Nitwits Yeet Mandolins act.
Yes, please.
While I agree with what Desantis is doing here, someone along the way should have told him how cringe the acronym looks.
I hate it in government, but love it in tech.
My favorite is an oldy:
SNOBOL - StriNg Oriented and syBOlic Language
Amazing.
Yes, very cool. And came just a bit after (and not related to) COBOL, COmmon Business Oriented Language.
"The state can't really banish ideas, and it's dangerous to try."
Worked just fine in Hong Kong.
It’s the job of government backed corporations to banish ideas.
The party account defended Joseph McCarthy while approvingly quoting anti-woke academic James Lindsay saying it's "time to deal with American communists for real."
Well, you know you're certainly in the libertarian right when you keep company with people saying:
Nothing says "higher standard of democracy" like being able to vote in favor of the wolf that promises to fatten you up and eat you later.
I listened to Malice's podcast interview of Lindsey. He's made clear that he isn't advocating McCarthy's tactics, but premise that communists had, in fact, infiltrated the U.S. government at senior levels, which is just a historical fact. As to dealing with communists for real, that could mean any number of things. That could include discussing communism's historical atrocities (as we do Nazis) as part of the curriculum without excuse.
The ground troops are happy to openly discuss their communism these days. Most of the woke left are communists.
R/antiwork is a good place to see how they really think. it is highly active with tens of thousands of daily posts. (Note that the premier libertarian site gets hundreds)
I sometimes think we're wounded by our reference to Communism and Fascism which are both somewhat specific historical manifestations of older, and more general, concepts. The current woke stuff doesn't fit neatly into either, but is a clear descendant from them and similar movements and ideas.
Woke is a descendent of Marxism like Crypto-Jews were decedents of Jews. Yes, they are a new thing, but only superficially. All the rest underneath- where it counts- is the same.
A relative of mine has a kid that's getting her PHD in philosophy, studying in Germany.
She actively supports and unironically argues for communism. Not even socialism, full on communism, govt take-over of everything. Complete with all the standard sophomoric arguments that have been done decades ago.
So read her the part where a communist takeover first kills all the old government members, then the PHDs.
None of that was “Real Communism”.
So... just keep iteratively executing the PhDs who weigh as much as a duck until we get to the right group of Real Communists. Duh.
Yeah, it wasn’t ‘rape rape’.
I listened to Malice’s podcast interview of Lindsey.
You can save time. When you see Reason say, 'He defended McCarthy/Hitler/Putin/Orban.' and someone else say, in agreement, 'What's so bad about communism, really?'" you don't have to read any further to know that Reason is deliberately stupifying people about what was said.
Remember, 'He's a New York liberal' -> 'He hates classical liberal democracies' from them about Ted Cruz? Remember, 'Hitler abhored the use of chemical weapons in war' -> 'Spicer denies Jews were gassed'? Remember 'Good people on both sides' or a dozen other things that Trump said that were perfectly sensible in contexts that Reason couldn't be bothered with?
DeSantis isn't trying to "banish ideas", he is trying to prevent people from having to endure sitting through hateful and racist indoctrination attempts at school and work, indoctrination with ideas many of them already reject.
And corporations don't perform this indoctrination because they want to, they do so under pressure from progressives and government. That is, DeSantis is simply giving them a reasonable way to avoid doing something they likely don't want to be doing in the first place.
From a legal point of view, the Stop-WOKE law is no more questionable than laws against other forms of hostile work environments or sexual harassment. Such laws are clearly not libertarian, but if you are going to have laws against racist comments at work, you certainly can have laws against racist and Marxist indoctrination at work.
You can either keep the Civil Rights Act around and everything that came from it, or mandate woke racism, but the two are mutually exclusive (or should be)
Precisely.
I'd add the 1A in there as well. You can either freely associate, force equality, or mandate woke racism. Pick one.
And corporations don’t perform this indoctrination because they want to, they do so under pressure from progressives and government.
True. The absence of anti-discrimination training is treated as suggestive in employment discrimination suits as evidence that the company "participated". It's only a matter of time before that standard gets shifted to "anti-racism".
Isn't this just Bake The Cake but in reverse, now it's Hire The Employee?
Seems like you're either free to manage your customers and your employees however you like or you're not.
No.
It's very simple.
You do not have the right to force people to violate their conscience.
You cannot force someone to bake the cake.
You cannot force someone to learn the propaganda.
But just like gay Coloradan newlyweds, Floridian employees can take their business elsewhere. Just like no one forces you to get a wedding cake from Masterpiece Cake Shop, no one forces you to work for a given company in Florida. It's a complete denial of basic human agency to choose to associate with whoever they want in whatever mutually agreeable manner they choose.
If you won't accept an appeal to basic principles, consider how little of a change would be required to turn this culture war weapon those who wield it today. Adding to the list of prohibited subjects, one could simply insert "religion" for example, or "the promotion of the homosexual lifestyle" (always a favorite of tyrants for its endlessly subjective reach).
Now do the required, non-functional trainings mandated by the government. You pretend this is an I intial salvo and not a response to government mandated programs that skew decidedly left.
But just like gay Coloradan newlyweds, Floridian employees can take their business elsewhere.
But there is a difference. This is not a business saying that they won't bake a cake. This is a business telling employees that the terms of their employment, agreed to at time of hire, have been altered to include ideological conditioning as requirement of employment without renegotiation. That's very difficult to simply walk away from.
Likewise, while the leftists who support forced indoctrination prefer to try to keep the focus on the words spoken, the words are not the deciding factor. The deciding factor is the force.
Kids MUST go to school, so anything they are being taught is being taught with the force of the state.
And employers that make employment contingent on learning the proper things to think without re-negotiating the employment contract are using the force of need.
And this law removes that ability.
It doesn't make saying anything illegal. It makes forcing people to listen illegal.
In the US, you are not free to do that. That's unfortunate, but as long as that is the state of affairs in the US, it's important that the regulations that are imposed on corporations aren't exclusively determined by the left.
DeSantis, a likely presidential candidate and favorite of the conservative movement, seeks to jettison the libertarian idea that the government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of private business.
Principles shminciples. If the left does it then they must be fought on their own terms. Put businesses under complete control of the state if that's what it takes to stop the left. When this fight is over it's going to be tyranny no matter what. Liberty shmiberty. Now choose your tyrant.
The problem is compulsion absent counter-compulsion isn't non-compulsion. It's still compulsion.
Here's an idea. Don't like corporate indoctrination? Don't work there. Don't buy their stuff. *gasp*
So, you're okay with the federal compulsion, just not the state counter-compulsion. I'm not really sure what "principles" you're standing for, but liberty doesn't look like one of them.
If you're going to tell me what I think and then argue against it, just skip the part where you talk to me about it.
Also, I'm unaware of this federal compulsion. Can you show me the law that forces my employer to indoctrinate me in wokeness? Or do you mean the great shadow-conspiracy that must be countered with legislation?
“Also, I’m unaware”
Shoulda just stopped right there and called it a day.
Build your own economy of businesses with less than 100 employees!
Or... and I know this is complicated.... or... we could stop the left from doing this stuff in the first place.
I mean, I get that arguing that it wasn't happening for over a decade was super smart and definitely didn't help the left to promote a new racist society and foment racial animus. It is surely a completely unreasonable position to expect that people professing libertarian principles would have stepped up even once when speakers on the right were being silenced.
But on the other hand, running cover for a bunch of stalinist democrat activists who have spent a decade and a half securing control over all major communication channels and using the federal government to mandate racist and sexist policies throughout society might argue for a degree of culpability that destroys any credibility for today's partisan complaints about the reaction on the right.
It aint a mistake if we told you what would happen more than a decade before it happened and you argued against it the whole time.
Usually I can pick out the strawman I'm accused of backing, but your word salad is such a jumble I can't even figure out the deliberately false accusation.
There is no straw man. This is reality. It is history. It already happened.
You can go back through 15 years of posts here and see the history unfold.
Milo was just a troll. There is no effort to silence him. There is no such thing as a shadow ban. There is no bias in the media.
Heck, you can go all the way back to journo-list, and further. When Dan Rather ran his fake story about Bush and the draft, it was part of a conspiracy between the Kerry campaign and all 5 of the major TV media organizations (not fox)... it was documented on Drudge 2 weeks before it happened.
And reason was happy to argue that it was a non issue.
Every step of the creation of the propaganda state that currently pushes us toward a racist and sexist society was called out right here by multiple people. For the last half decade or so leftists like Glenn Greenwald and Tim Pool have been calling it out.
But with the tepid exception of Soave, reason has been happy to run interference as channels are taken down, personalities are banned from the public square, and the 4th estate is corrupted into a party mouthpiece.
And every step of the way, leftist shills have spent time here intentionally gumming up the works to prevent the casual passerby from being able to glean some insight from a quick read.
They have put decades of work into creating a world where careers can be destroyed for calling a racist liar a liar. And the left here wrote extensively against any pushback that the march to this day received.
And where are we now? Near daily partisan attacks against the democrat top targets, and not much of anything about the totalitarian leftists who ate actually holding the levers of power.
If you keep stopping anyone from looking at the man behind the curtain, don't be shocked when people start to suspect that you are working with the man behind the curtain.
ok.....
We get it. This is all over your head.
"But with the tepid exception of Soave..."
Well, Soave is nuanced, to be sure.
Unfortunately, he's the best Reason's got. Sullum, Shackford, ENB, Lancaster, and the rest have all bought into it, lock, stock, and barrel.
to be sure... 😉
Put businesses under complete control of the state if that’s what it takes to stop the left.
It's revealing sarc has to lie about the process in order to make his point. Creating rules to stop the left from racially discriminating in private business is not the same as controlling them in all circumstances. The governmental right to stop racial discrimination in employment has existed for more than a half-century. It's so well established literally no one will publicize their opposition. Instead they hide behind half truths and lies.
If you want to openly support racial discrimination in employment and education openly state you oppose the Civil Rights Acts. Otherwise you know you're lying.
Whenever someone on these comments say "It's revealing" what follows is always a lie.
Poor sarc.
That's amusing considering this is one of many threads in which you proved yourself a liar. Meanwhile your own argument includes nothing of substance.
How? The only way I could be a liar is if what I say differs from what you inferred. Orrrrrrrrrr, you could have inferred wrong.
Except I didn’t infer anything. You’re just unwilling to consider how your statements conflict, which is typical for you and dishonest commenters generally.
As already pointed out you claim to support the Civil Rights Acts (excluding title ii of 64). But you also claim you don’t support laws against discrimination. It’s impossible for both of these statements to be true because the civil rights acts ban discrimination by private actors in sections other than title ii of 64.
It’s impossible for both of these statements to be true because the civil rights acts ban discrimination by private actors in sections other than title ii of 64.
Then I didn't examine it that closely and was going off the summary. Excuse the fuck out of me. Doesn't make me a liar, especially when I clarified. Either I missed the part you're talking about, or I lied when I said that in principle I oppose criminalization of discrimination while I support government not discriminating. You of course believe the latter is correct.
In case that is confusing to you, by "latter" I meant what came after "or". What came before the "or" was reasonable, and what came after was not.
My point is that you will defend the latter like a junkyard dog.
Whoof!
Whoof!
Meanwhile your own argument includes nothing of substance.
Alright. What is my argument, then, and why is it devoid of substance?
I'll bet a paycheck that your description of my argument will be totally wrong, and you'll call me a liar when I point it out.
Your argument was explicitly that when someone says something is revealed they are lying. It’s devoid of substance because the framing doesn’t inherently conflict and you identified no conflict with the individual comment.
Keep the paycheck, McDonalds isn’t paying enough you can miss one.
Your fingers are slurring.
That’s pretty funny in the very thread you whine about others criticizing you for drunk posting. Your perfect record of failing every single standard you judge others by Remains intact.
Impressive.
GFY
I wonder what the response from the courts and the libertarian illuminati would be if the Alt Right held sway in corporate boardrooms and they were mandating training for all employees on race.
Non black employees taken together and trained on how Black people are responsible for most violent crime and how to hole Black people accountable for crime....
And Black employees taken out separately and given training on how to make other employees comfortable with their criminal nature as Black people, how to reassure people that they will not act criminally and how to make reparations for the crimes committed by other Black people..m.
Think maybe we might have a problem with that?
Would we have a problem with a republican administration pushing out mandates on employers that lead them to do this sort of training?
More importantly, would Reason have a pants-soiling about a state forbidding companies from firing employees or punishing students for not attending such trainings?
Libertarians criticize the right for wanting to control businesses, and what's the response?
WHATABOUT Civil Rights Act!?! WHATABOUT workplace discrimination!?! WHATABOUT Communists!?!
Reason is a bunch of leftists!!!!11!!one!!!!1!eleventy!!!!
Ah, I see. You care about "principles". But, only when they're selectively applied in furtherance of your position. Got it.
Why don't you lay out my position, argue against it, and call me a liar when I disagree? That's how you gain points around here.
You're claiming "Whatabouts". But, the "Whatabouts" are violations of the very principles you're trying to claim. If you're trying to claim the principled high ground, these violations of principle should count for more than a summary dismissal as just a distraction. You can argue for anti-discrimination laws and against laws against woke indoctrination all you want. Just don't try to claim you're motivated by liberty as a principle behind this.
But, the “Whatabouts” are violations of the very principles you’re trying to claim.
And those ships have sailed. Can't do anything about it now.
You can argue for anti-discrimination laws and against laws against woke indoctrination all you want.
Except I'm not. If you asked, instead of assuming, I'd tell you that I oppose anti-discrimination laws. In a free society assholes should be free to be assholes. You're saying that the existence of bad laws justifies more bad laws. Then you say I have no principles.
“Except I’m not. If you asked, instead of assuming, I’d tell you that I oppose anti-discrimination laws.”
Why would anyone assume such a crazy idea after you posted this:
sarcasmic 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Libertarians criticize the right for wanting to control businesses, and what’s the response?
WHATABOUT Civil Rights Act!?! WHATABOUT workplace discrimination!?!
I’d tell you that I oppose anti-discrimination laws.
You'd be lying then since downthread you claimed you want to keep most of the CRAs.
Typical. /Deny, deny, deny. Argue whatever works in the context of the argument. Then argue exactly the opposite elsewhere so you don't have to accept the costs of your position.
I support laws preventing the government from engaging in discrimination. I oppose laws criminalizing the people from doing the same. Just as I oppose public unions but don't object to them in the private sector. There is no intellectual inconsistency here.
I oppose laws criminalizing the people from doing the same.
So you lied when you claimed to support the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (other than Title II) which includes a ban on discrimination in employment (Title VII) and education (Title IV).
What I do find greatly amusing though are those who hate the Mises Caucus supposedly because of their extreme unwillingness to be pragmatic. But then these same people work themselves into opposing the Civil Rights Acts because of their need to protect the left's discrimination. Not only do you prove yourselves extremists but you do so to protect racial and sex discrimination.
As I said, revealing. And fun!
Have fun playing with yourself. When you want a conversation instead of some stupid competition where your buddies keep score, I might be interested. Until then fuck off.
Certainly if I wanted a conversation you could never be involved since by your own admission you’re only here to troll others. You’re an example of how the combination of stupidity, certainty, and assholeness make a particularly toxic combination.
Read backwards and tell me which one of us is the most civil. I'll give you a clue. It ain't you.
Which one of us claimed to duck the others mother and refers to commenter giving each other blousons? I’ll give you a hint: that person also whines that others engage in schoolyard taunts demonstrating yet another standard he only applies to others.
Plus it’s clear you are far less civil since your first comment on literally every thread is a preemptive attack on other commenters. But civility is yet another standard you apply only to others.
Abiding my position in good faith only counts until I say it doesn't.
You going to make stuff up and argue against it too? You could score some major points!
You do realize that every word of your original post, from 'Libertarians' to 'leftists!!!!11!!one!!!!1!eleventy!!!!' is completely made up and open to interpretation, right?
Did you read anything that anyone wrote? I think my original post was a spot-on, though slightly exaggerated, summary of the comments.
Civil rights laws do mandate what ideas businesses are allowed to speak to their employees. It is a direct precedent that Reason, at least recently, no longer pushes back at. In fact, at least some writers, like Shackford have celebrated recent expansions of, like sexual orientations and trans status.
So, are you merely mad that Reason is a set of hypocrites for being mad about Thing A which is bad but not actively also shouting about Thing B which is also bad? Thing A is bad on its own merits. The same people ignoring Thing B or even supporting Thing B doesn't make Thing A good.
It's almost like you care more about figuring out which "team" various players are on (specifically whether it's "your team" or not) than whether the goal is the ball is flying towards is a good one.
Talking about A without talking about B equals supporting B.
Similarly criticizing A equals support for B.
To win an argument in these comments, you just have to come up with a B, claim that whatever the person said about A means they support B, and now you've invalidated their argument by making them out to be a hypocrite or otherwise terrible person!
Ad hominem! F! T! W! Booyah!
You do realize they are the same thing, right? It's merely a matter of who it is pointed at and like always as long as it is wielded by the left against those on the right or traditional American values, you are all for it.
It can be counted on that whatever "it" refers to in "you are all for it" is a bullshit accusation.
He wasn't even replying to you. It was directed at me. But yes, I am now also curious what exactly I am, apparently, "all for". As for the "traditional American values" that I like best, I'm pretty partial to the 1st amendment, laissez-faire economics, free enterprise, and freedom of association and I view government intrusion into the affairs (both public and private) of the people with deep suspicion.
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Republicans should go full-commie and declare "wokeness" to be a mental illness. Round the fuckers up and reeducate them.
What about the real issue?
Is it OK to train all employees that white people are inherently evil and oppressive and black people are all victims of their oppression?
You OK with that? How OK? Is any objection to this even allowable? How much?
Skipping to the end and arguing about the form of the pushback is dishonest. Establish that teaching racism in segregated trainings is Okey dokey first... then we can talk about why opposing it is a bad thing.
Is it OK to train all employees that white people are inherently evil and oppressive and black people are all victims of their oppression?
Is that legally mandated? Not that I'm aware of. Are people so stupid that they're going to believe it, or will those who don't already believe it just shrug it off? I think the latter.
You OK with that? How OK? Is any objection to this even allowable? How much?
I'm not happy with it, no. And I would certainly opposed that being mandated by the government. However I'm not aware of such mandates, nor have I ever encountered such training. And I don't believe legislation is required to counter this.
Establish that teaching racism in segregated trainings is Okey dokey first… then we can talk about why opposing it is a bad thing.
You're falling into the leftist mental trap of "that which is not prohibited is mandatory."
We can add sarc to those who oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
The mistake DeSantis is making is not using the Florida version of the CRAs so that leftists have to state openly they oppose it. We don't need a new law, anyone discriminating in employment (most large companies) or education (essentially all companies) is already breaking the law. Anyone involved in developing, executing, or executing woke principles should be prosecuted. Further governments should add that no institution violating the Civil Rights Acts or employing any person who has is eligible to receive federal funds.
Getting leftist activists off the taxpayer gravy train is step one to fighting the left's institutional control.
We can add sarc to those who oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
I oppose Title II. The rest can stay.
The rest can stay.
This directly contradicts sarc's previous assertion that woke discrimination does not justify legislation. As usual he tries to have it both ways, claiming both that discrimination in education and employment should be against the law but that anyone who opposes leftists actually discriminating are wrong.
Largely this is because he can't get past his hatred of people on the right in order to focus on the principles in conflict. It's an intellectually bankrupt belief set.
If you're going to create a strawman, at least make it intelligible. Fuck dude. That salad of assumptions and accusations is unreadable.
Ah, we see your typical retreat. Although for you specifically feigned illiteracy is at least plausible.
You missed my point. Break your posts up into parts. You put too many false assumptions and accusations into the same post. It would take a paragraph to respond.
This directly contradicts sarc’s previous assertion that woke discrimination does not justify legislation.
Not sure what that means. I'd rather repeal the non-existent legislation requiring "woke" indoctrination than create new legislation.
As usual he tries to have it both ways
Let's see what bullshit follows.
claiming both that discrimination in education and employment should be against the law but that anyone who opposes leftists actually discriminating are wrong.
I can't even parse that out. Discrimination in employment and education should be against the law what? Leftists discriminating what?
Dude.
I'm totally lost.
You ain't Reagan. You're a shitty communicator. Maybe you should work on that.
It’s not hard. By claiming you support the civil right acts you agree racial discrimination in employment should be illegal.
But then you claim anyone opposing leftists discriminating in employment is wrong
The amusing thing here is that it turned out you couldn’t understand my comment because you misunderstood your own assertions. But naturally you concluded others were wrong
Classic sarc.
"Is it OK to train all employees that white people are inherently evil and oppressive and black people are all victims of their oppression?"
By sarcs normal MO, if it allows him to shit on republicans its totally fine, principles be damned.
Keep making up what I think and calling me a liar when I disagree. Great way to score points around here. Might put you on the leaderboard.
"Keep making up what I think"
Just observing what you put out in every comment thread, every day is all
Only if you are so retarded that you assume criticism of A equals support for B. Which, sadly, seems to be the norm.
An odd comment from someone who asserts anyone who disagrees with him is a Trumpist. But standards are those things sarc applies to other people, never to himself.
How many points do you get when you knock down a strawman?
What about Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby? Both companies are very Christian. There's Christian posters and literature everywhere the employees go. Does that mean that anyone who works for either of those companies will be indoctrinated into Christianity? Will every worker leave a born-again Bible-thumper? No? So why are you so afraid of "woke" training?
No, but if they had mandatory training that, I dunno, said Christian's were people of better morals/character/integrity, and are naturally oppressed by lesser hateful, bigoted, evil religions like Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism, you can fucking bet they would be hit with discrimination / civil rights law suits in about 5 seconds.
Also, this is exactly the language and attitude that current anti-racism training uses.
Who is going to buy it who doesn't believe it already? I think most people see it as the bullshit that it is.
Is there legislation mandating such training? I'm not aware of any. If there is, then the focus should be on the repeal, not new legislation.
So based upon that why is legislation, as in threats backed up with deadly force, required to stop this?
Looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.
"Who is going to buy it who doesn’t believe it already? "
Irrelevant, buying into it has nothing to do with it. Mandating that an employee sit through bigoted lectures (and often times signing a paper that indicates your agreement with said lectures) as a condition of employment is either fine or it isnt. Right now they are getting away with saying it is NOT fine and illegal unless it is pushing their ideology and politics, in which case it is fine.
"Is there legislation mandating such training? "
No, there is currently legislation against such training, called the CRA. The problem is that it's being unequally applied. It either needs to be upheld or removed, not applied only in one direction.
Mandating that an employee sit through bigoted lectures (and often times signing a paper that indicates your agreement with said lectures) as a condition of employment is either fine or it isnt.
Here's a concept that I doubt you will be able to comprehend.
Maybe it's both not fine and not in need of legislative action.
Ever think of that?
Is there legislation mandating such training?
No.
It doesn't come in the form of legislation --because legislators have to answer to the people.
It comes in the form of regulation, and guideline, and 'best practices' --because that's where the bureaucracy holds sway.
It uses a perturbation of one right to remove countless others.
And it should not have to be legislated against.
It should be laughed at.
But we live in a world where people who call themselves educated smugly tell all who they can force to hear that biological facts are social constructions, that mathematical realities are rooted in racial animus, that the greatest freedom can be had by ceding all freedom to authoritarian control.
So a law to tell these people that they are not allowed to force people to violate their respective consciences is needed.
You realize your schtick of bitching about R's because Trump broke your brain, and reflexively simping for the left to do so, ends up placing you in the position of being as far from libertarian as possible?
Something something 'nose' something 'face'
I bitch about Republicans when they piss on libertarian principles. I don't complain so much when Democrats do it because I expect it. I complain about Republicans out of disappointment. They're supposed to be the half of the duopoly that supports liberty.
Which ends up meaning you do not raise a stink when Democrats do it and seem to complain bitterly about people complaining about those attacks on liberty even when they land.
Which results in him basically spending all his time bitching about republicans and rarely, if ever, about democrats. Somehow his "totes not a democrat" philosophy comes off looking no different than prime time MSNBC.
Only if you are so simple-minded that you believe criticism of your team equals support for the other team.
Why should I? You guys bitch and moan when a Democrat ties their shoes.
That's how totalitarians like you think.
Instead, however, Republicans are happy just to prevent you from forcing others to participate in your mental illness.
Wow. You definitely win a prize for that comment. Literally every statement was total bullshit. Bravo!
Yes, literally every statement you made was total bullshit. Bravo for recognizing that.
You are projecting your own totalitarian beliefs onto others.
>>The state can't really banish ideas
ideas put into practice no longer ideas.
They're policies. Weissmueller knows this and is gaslighting.
And, as usual, our shallow thinkers, Sarcasmic, JFree, etc. are pretending otherwise.
>>and is gaslighting
in the fucking headline banner no need to even rtfa
*snort* Like you're a deep thinker LMAO!
Ideas!
I'm the Mariana trench compared to your warm little puddle, Sarcasmic.
sarcasmic
February.7.2021 at 2:27 pm
So there’s a difference between law (what society deems to be wrong) and legislation (rules backed with government force)?
No way!
The deepest thought you ever had was the shallow hole you dug in the Canadian Boy Scouts before you shat in it.
"the shallow hole you dug in the Canadian Boy Scouts before you shat in it"
The booze, right? Read that again when you're sober and see if it's quite the witty riposte that you currently imagine.
Oh, and it's cute that you are posting things I wrote over a year ago. If I was a total loser I'd have a file of things you posted. But I'm not.
It's not "cute" posting the delusional ravings of a drunken idiot, but since you have the long-term memory of a retarded fruit fly a reminder is often necessary.
I dunno. It's illegal to discriminate on the basis of (insert protected category here), and that's certainly criminalizing thoughts and beliefs. So, not sure how different this move from the FL legislature is, technically.
The concept of basic principles defining public policy and laws goes completely over their heads. The notion that using government power to promote only "good" might be a recipe for unending political battles that can never be permanently resolved but that damage the fabric of society is totally missed or dismissed by the partisans, although we might cynically conclude that their careers being promoted thereby is part of the plan. The idea that the basic public good might best be served by leaving people alone as much as possible and avoiding controversy with undefined and undefinable "goods" never seems to occur to them.
The thing is, Weissmueller, it isn't "ideas" that the Act combats; it's policies.
Horrible, racist, pedophiliac, abusive policies wearing "compassionate" skin suits being pushed by school boards and local governments.
Banning workplace trainings that tell people that their race or sex makes them morally culpable might sound reasonable to many Americans. A recent Rasmussen poll found just 29 percent of Americans think corporate diversity trainings actually improve race relations.
But opponents say laws banning a broad set of ideas set a dangerous precedent.
How interesting these "critics" and Reasoners now openly oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I think this is called burying the lede.
Not at all. I am not required to work for an employer who requires such training as a condition of employment. It's a contract by mutual consent. On the other hand the Civil Rights Act is at least partially unconstitutional on the same basis. But (of course) getting the Supreme Court to rule that way has been and likely will continue to be almost impossible.
The odd thing here is that you start by saying "not at all" when the rest of your comment proves my assertion correct. Very strange.
I was also confused by the response.
My mistake. Upon re-reading your original post it appears that you found it interesting that Reason was criticizing the Civil Rights Act. Although I support the concept of banning "discrimination" - especially based upon race, gender, religion, sexual preference and national origin - the Federal law, and especially the way the law was written - is not the way to achieve that excellent goal.
Employers are not allowed under the CRA to require you to sign a paper saying "whites are morally superior to blacks" but they are currently getting away with saying "whites are morally inferior to blacks". Its either illegal or its not, the wokies have to pick a side.
Allowing them the double standard is the worst of the 3 possible outcomes (the other being full enforcement or fully repealing the CRA)
They’re not allowed to have any training disparaging any race regardless of whether they have to act on it. This is textbook hostile work environment which is employment discrimination.
Since comments on all the articles concerning cake decorators have been closed, I would like to point out that there is a relatively "bright" line between refusing service to someone based on race, creed, skin color, gender and sexual preference; and refusing to create a product for them for those reasons. The example I usually use to try to disarm the snowflakes in this discussion is that, as a cake decorator I would refuse to decorate a cake with a Nazi swastika and image of Hitler for their celebration of the anniversary of Germany's invasion of Poland. Very few antifa types would want a law that punishes a cake maker for refusing to decorate a Nazi cake for a Fascist. On the other hand, refusing to sell a cake on display for sale in your cake shop to a gay, Nazi trans person who walks into your shop to buy a cake is much more reasonable legally speaking and does not violate anyone's right to free speech.
What, exactly do you think you're pointing out?
At no time have any of the bakers been accused of refusing service. In fact all of these cases revolve around leftists attempting to force them to decorate that swastika cake, so to speak--or to provide creative services for occasions they don't agree with.
None are about simple service or product purchase.
Working for 40 years I had many mandated training sessions on many popular topics and thought a good many of them were pure fertilizer. That said they are part of what companies, organization, and agencies do. I attended took in what was said and evaluated it as I wished. So, I find the idea that people are distressed about diversity training laughable. Most people will attend, ignore what was said enjoy their paid time off and maybe even the lunch provided for them.
They have made saying some things illegal, and saying the same things with the race swapped legal. Its racism and discrimination, on full display
This is not hard. Either repeal the CRA and let companies speak and discriminate how they please, or enforce it equally for everyone. Application in favor of one group is not acceptable.
^ This
It's not just some silly training you can laugh off.
If this is allowed, or disallowed, then all forms of it should be treated equally.
Currently, they are not. As i mentioned before, try having some employee training where everyone is shown how degenerate and pedo-friendly the trans movement is and there is even an employee hotline setup to "report" such actions to HR. Hopefully everyone leaves this training with a renewed respect for the nuclear family and traditional roles and will even DO THE WORK to help make these values spread to everyone!
That's your experience some business are following up with post training questions to see who was and who wasn't paying attention. It's also a violation of the civil rights act to imply that any ethnicity is in way superior or inferior to another but yeah keep telling yourself it's Ok to tell employees white people are oppressor's. No doubt should your employer have a change of mind and do the reverse, provide training that blacks are oppressive you'll also have no issues with that too right?
State governments are not just allowed but positively obligated to stop government institutions (and "private" institutions functioning as government actors) from evangelizing for a religion.
"Woke" is a religion.
"seeks to jettison the libertarian idea that the government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of private business."
But it's okay for private business to meddle in the affairs of government?
This is where big L Libertarians lose the argument. You're okay with getting screwed over royally as long as its a private business doing it.
Same suicidal logic used to justify open borders. Freedom is not the natural state of man. Most of our recorded history, man has been enslaved. Even today we are not free. You can't just invite random people and give them voting rights and representation and expect them to care about your carefully crafted system of government.
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What a load of Reason BS. Disallowing a company from mandating it's employees participate in training that tells them how to think about their own race and others is what is at stake, not what people themselves can think or believe but leave it to REASON, which sold out to the establishment after Trump won, to argue the reverse of reality.
SO Reasons stance is that YES companies should be able to require employees to believe their race is inferior or superior but if the state steps in and says no private business you can't do that it is somehow setting a dangerous precedent. Just go ahead and declare yourself as being a part of the new Authoritarian Left. It's clear you no longer are libertarians.
We ought not have to modify our beliefs or conversations simply to conduct ordinary commerce in society. If the relationship between Big Tech and the individual customer were a bit more symmetric, then I might agree with Reason on this one; however, many Big Tech companies have an effective monopoly on products or services that are very difficult to live without.
Big Tech companies currently enjoy an awful lot of privileges that assume that they are "common carriers..." They generally aren't responsible for information passed over their services. If Big Tech is going to stop acting as a common carrier, then they probably shouldn't have the immunities of a common carrier.
"Our current employment discrimination law that preceded the Stop WOKE Act already covers hostile work environments," says Agarwal
Yup. Anybody try to force you to take one of these courses at work, sue them.
How the hell am I California socialist?
When did Libertarianism become synonymous with cultural Marxism? Ron de Santis is fighting for you … you stupid, emasculated Leftist twits.
Maybe those who support the hostile environment doctrine but oppose this sort of statute could give us some hypotheticals – what would be some examples of behavior which isn't a hostile environment but violates the anti-woke statute?
I believe forcing me to take "diversity training" is a hostile work environment.
This is the point which interests me...aren't the things covered by these laws already illegal? Florida is simply adopting a declaratory act making crystal-clear that these particular workplace abuses are illegal, so nobody will quibble about it.
In the original post, there's this:
""Our current employment discrimination law that preceded the Stop WOKE Act already covers hostile work environments," says Agarwal, whose argument was supported by the judge who ruled against the state. When an employee faces persistent, offensive comments related to his or her identity in the workplace, that employee can file a harassment claim under current civil rights law. But Agarwal believes "the Stop WOKE Act creates a whole set of pretty flimsy and vague standards that make it kind of impossible for an employer to figure out how to proceed.""
If someone is required as a condition of employment or promotion to hear insults against a group of which (s)he is a member, isn't that persistent and offensive?
If someone is required as a condition of employment or promotion to hear insults against a group of which (s)he is a member, isn’t that persistent and offensive?
And this is being generous and/or acting in good faith. CA actively sought to overturn it's workplace anti-discrimination policies. It's clearly not just a "We haven't tried this untested avenue of ending workplace discrimination that may have adverse consequences for some." situation and clearly a "We have to discriminate in order to end workplace discrimination." situation.
What we have to deal with is a bunch of well funded activists who want to force us to pledge obedience to their political views, as well as have unrestricted access to our kids.
I think messing with people's kids is the last straw. Once parents find out the sorts of things that are being done to their kids, they have to act.
So what do they do? Petitioning the government to intervene seems like a fairly civilized solution. Of course the laws are going to be awkward solutions at best.
This isn't about criminalizing ideas, it's about criminalizing the forcing of ideas on other people. The business owner isn't worried that she won't be able to offer "diversity training", but that she won't be able to FORCE "diversity training" on employees as a condition of employment. They want to be able to FORCE these ideas on captive schoolchildren and make their grade contingent on being able to regurgitate these foul concepts. Screw them!
The only reason for a state is to prevent aggression from others.
And what we are seeing in the corporate world, with the ESG and DEI stuff is companies trying to control people
Reason seems to be think that Government always bad, Corporations always good. But the reality is both are bad, it's just in theory government we have some control over because we can vote.
That quote from C.S. Lewis about robber barons vs do gooders is wrong. The modern day robber barons aren't content with wanting everything, they want everyday people to own nothing. And they also see themselves as do gooders.
“We’re talking about a state government regulating the free exchange of ideas. That is a bigger threat to our liberty and to American values than “wokeness” ever will be.”
As several others have already pointed out, this isn’t what we’re talking about. The “free exchange of ideas” simply isn’t the same thing as “a requirement for employment”. Making this argument about free speech is a change of subject.
Some things don’t deserve to be debated because they are wrong on their face. You can’t legitimately answer a question that is wrongly stated (“Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?”). This is the case here.
The question isn’t whether one can freely express the ideas of identity, racial, and sexual politics in the workplace, the question is whether one has to agree with them as a condition of employment.
It should be obvious that the answer to this question must be no. Politics, like religion, is a matter of conscience, and it should never be permitted to force anyone to espouse ANY personal belief just so they can be a member of society.
Call this the foundational requirement of plurality. One cannot have a free and open society without it. One cannot have a democratic form of government without it. Openness and plurality go absolutely hand in hand.
“We’re talking about a state government regulating the free exchange of ideas. That is a bigger threat to our liberty and to American values than “wokeness” ever will be.”
DaveM: "The question isn’t whether one can freely express the ideas of identity, racial, and sexual politics in the workplace, the question is whether one has to agree with them as a condition of employment"
Tell you what, if I own a business, in a libertarian ZAP-"dominant" society, and think blacks and whites should be able awarded according to merit, then I absolutely do have a natural right to reject someone who has stated clearly in any venue that he thinks pay should be based --even partially-- on race or gender or biological-gender-denial, or a rejection of the common traditional meaning of words.
After all, whose property is it?
I have no problem with anything DeSavage does.
Teachers and school boards who push woke agendas should be fired.
Parents need to remove their children from these public indoctrination centers and home school.
Replace school boards with people who won't push woke, post modernist, neo Marxist agendas.
Build new mental institutions.
Never vote for a democrat.
The article is a perfect example of how to say you're woke, without saying you're woke. That's Reason in a nutshell.
This article starts from the false premise that under current law, managers of private companies have the legal right to express, and to permit the expression of, whatever ideas about race, gender, etc. they wish to express. That's simply incorrect. Under federal and state employment discrimination laws, companies whose managers (or in some cases, even whose low-level employees) express ideas at odds with contemporary liberal values on those issues will quickly find themselves held liable for creating/permitting the creation of a hostile work environment.
Perhaps employment discrimination laws should be construed so that expression of the ideas prohibited by the "Stop WOKE" Act would be construed as creating a hostile work environment as well. If and when that happens, the Act would be redundant. In the meantime, it helpfully clarifies that expressions of racial and gender bias and animus don't belong in the workplace, even if those expressions are of the variety favored by contemporary liberals.
You can't have it both ways.
If businesses cannot engage in racist practices, then businesses cannot engage in racist practices.
Telling people that judging everyone the same way regardless of race is "racist" is nonsensical. It is also racist - overtly.
Telling people who are white that they bear responsibility for what a tiny minority of people who fit a much narrower definition of "white" 150 years ago did, even though their ancestors were not even here yet, or, if they were, were more likely to have been fighting against slavery than benefiting from it, is nonsensical. It is also racist - overtly.
These practices constitute racial discrimination.
Making employees sit in a room and hear about how SOME of them are guilty and suspect because of their race is employment discrimination.
"And we're not even talking about Soviet espionage here, which is what kicked off McCarthy's crusade. We're talking about professors teaching what they believe college students need to hear, and employers training their workers in ways they think will help create a more harmonious workplace, virtue signal to customers, and, ultimately, help their bottom line."
you need to do some more research, these ideas that have taken over our education system and media are direct results of soviet infiltration into our institutions. Why do you think there are so many openly marxists people in academia and organizations like BLM?
^ + infinity ^
You Mises caucus types aren't libertarian at all. One of them divided libertarian into two types - one of which he called 'brutalist'. Which is basically assholes who will never advocate a 'live and let live' type idea- but who call themselves libertarian because they don't advocate that stuff as LAW.
Except that is exactly what you do.
Yes this was an especially odious bit of clap trap:
"[C]onservatives will point out, the progressive left has no problem using civil rights law to push its ideas...Instead, you could be blunting or even dismantling it. If existing laws are part of the problem, limit or repeal the laws."
It is telling that this is their throw-away line at the end of the article. They want to just suggest how simple it is to take the "Third Way", without sparing a moment to contemplate the obvious consequences.
In case it isn't patently obvious to Mr Weissmueller, it is insane beyond belief to suggest that conservatives can feasibly roll back or limit civil rights laws. Indeed, if that is Weissmueller's "Solution" then he should spend an entire article/video explaining to us why Civil Rights laws are an anathema to Freedom of Association, and how they should be dismantled. And mind you- this used to be a Libertarian position on the party plank. It has since been tempered, but it is a direct extension of Freedom of Association.
But Weissmueller won't actually go on record AGAINST Civil Rights. No, he will make throw away lines about how that is what the RIGHT ought to do. But he won't argue for it himself. Because he knows that "Third Way" is actually a "Third Rail" of politics. He knows that advocating to limit or roll back Civil Rights legislation will mean being pilloried in the press as racist and bigoted.
Look, if you are going to go on record against laws that forbid training "white privilege" because you cannot "police ideas" then you are de facto against laws that forbid training "white superiority". That means you are against pretty much every piece of Civil Rights legislation at the state or national level.
I will vociferously endorse repealing all such civil rights legislation that polices Sexual, Racial, and Religious discrimination in the work place just as soon as Weissmueller dares to do the same. Let's see if he can muster the chutzpah to do so.
Yep. Fuck 'em.
^Co-signed.
No freedom of speech here. Just what Mr. DeSantis agrees with.
Exactly what I was coming to say! Losertatians are de facto Communist puppets as they mewl about how while Communism is bad, mmmkay, to place any impediments in front of their totalitarian genocidal socialist fascism would infringe upon the liberties of the jackbooted thugs stomping out everyone else’s freedoms.
It’s this sort of “mustn’t make anyone feel bad except the majority” which results in a guy claiming he’s “trans” and thus entitled to use the girls locker room and when the girls protest this interloper, the school declaring them to be intolerant haters and banishing the entire team to share one bathroom without a shower while the dude gets the whole locker room to himself.
Weird how Reason and Losertatians are totes chill with fascist Democrats using Big Tech to unperson heretics to their fascism but get all up on their hind legs to freak out about any pushback.
This has got to be the most stupid comment setup I have ever seen! What isn't spam are people talking about drunkposting! It totally takes the stage and makes your comment fall into a black hole! That said, I disagree with your premise on DeSantis, he wants us to be able to work and not have to bend to "woke" mandates from employers! It was time Disney was put into there place! They were putting their money saved from paying taxes into the state while pushing back on policies the Governor and Fl Congress passed that the majority of Floridians agree with! Disney doesn't care what parents think! They had "gay days" and that sort of thing and parents don't want to expose their children to such things!
I dont understand whats hard about this for libertarians. Of course you can oppose wokeness, but the argument is the government shoudnt ban the right of people to freely speak ideas even if you disagree with them. The same applies to people who would try to legislate wokeness.
Schools are on thing since they are run by the state, but how is it libertarian to say what private businesses can and cant do?
Fuck off, and go put on a 6th mask, and get your 19booster, and lock yourself in your room for another 2 years. You are literally the opposite of a libritarian
This is JFree's standard MO. If he doesn't like an argument you are making, he tries to other you by calling you a Mises Caucus/Crypto Nut/Gold Bug. He has no proof if you are a Mises member or Crypto Nut. He is just so obsessed with tribal politics that he thinks you must be part of the groups he sees as WRONG WRONG WRONG.
The only thing more certain than JFear's desire to spout bullshit he knows nothing about is his belief that he can read your mind and suss out your secret memberships and associations.
about anyone with a pulse is more libertarian than your ilk
You know, the pants shitting, pseudo-science-justifying-authoritarian nanny-staters. I dont think anyone needs your advice as to what libertarianism is. You have demonstrated you are at best a useful idiot and apologist to authoritarians, at worst, one of the people responsible for it.
You lost. Suck it.
You wouldn’t know liberty if it bitch slapped you with chemjeff’s dick.
This is much how libertarians opposed using government to oppose Jim Crow. They want to pretend discrimination supported by government, like Jim Crow, can be overcome without the use of government. Not only was that belief wrong but it cost libertarians two generations of support (so far).
It’s pathetic to see people posing as libertarians criticizing others as extremist for not making the same stupid mistake all over again.
Libertarian means adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle, period, also known as the Zero-Aggression Principle. The prohibition on aggression against one's person or property. Period.
That leaves a lot of room for different ideas on what should happen in society. But a "reliable corollary" is that this is the ONLY proper basis for saying "common good", or "greater good", because ANY such infringement, whether a "big" or "small" infringement, diminishes the net for the sum total of same. Stated differently, the sum of each individual's own personal "greater good", is greater than any idea of an imposed "collective greater good" that differs from the sum for each individual.
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Cool. Now do the War of Northern Aggression, secession and slavery.
This x 1000.
The right to an abortion was repealed. This gave women the right to determine whether they would get or remain pregnant (within limits.) I believe this falls into the category of "civil rights" laws and it was kicked to the curb in short order. The voter rights act that intended to protect racial minorities from having their votes taken away is getting ready for the same chopping block having been deeply diminished in a prior court. There are examples of conservatives outright killing rights or deeply diminishing civil rights laws. So "insane beyond belief" seems a bit overwrought. Justice Thomas has publicly set his sights on contraception and LGBT civil rights as his next preferred targets.
As far as government entities not discriminating, as in civil rights laws, there is no problem.
The libertarian problem was when it extended to individuals and private businesses - exactly an anathema to freedom of association.
Freedom of with whom to associate, and with whom not to.
It is the people who are granted that freedom, and having such disgusting "anti-discrimination" laws, for the individual and their private business, is a far from liberty as one can get.
We are supposed to be able to choose, with whom we associate, in our private lives and in our private businesses.
As long as "civil rights" laws impede on what the people may do, those parts are nothing but unconstitutional.
Doing that to individuals is akin to slavery.
It wasn't repealed. There was no law to repeal, only court precedent. I'm fully in favor of legal abortion, but let's stick with facts here.
The conservative position isn't (in general) that people shouldn't have these rights, only that the constitution does not authorize the federal government to legislate on those issues.
Dude, ENB isn't going to suck your cock no mater how many retarded progressive talking points you repeat.
Abortion: The right of liberty vs the right to life. Both established liberal rights and along with the right to property make up the three negative rights that, IMO, are the bedrock of the USA (Founding principles anyway). So...simply saying that repealing the court decision that forced states to allow legal abortion is a civil rights removal is somewhat of a strawman. You simply omitted the right to life of the unborn. So, libertarians should be at odds with each other (and if like me, with themselves) over abortion laws. When is a fetus a person? Isn't that the question that needs answered???
Shorter Shawn_dude: "I don't want to talk about the issue at hand. Let's have Round 5 Million of the Abortion Warz!"
Wrong. No right was repealed, the SCOTUS ruled that the ROE decision was bad law and that its up to the states and not the Feds to decided this. You should be excited by this as some states like NY & CA will now be able to rewove any restrictions allowing for child sacrifices right up until birth, maybe even shortly after in some lucky states ey?
Weren't those all Democrat positions?
Just War by Murray Rothbard - link is from Mises Institute
In 1861, the Southern states, believing correctly that their cherished institutions were under grave threat and assault from the federal government, decided to exercise their natural, contractual, and constitutional right to withdraw, to "secede" from that Union. The separate Southern states then exercised their contractual right as sovereign republics to come together in another confederation, the Confederate States of America.
IOW - states have the right to impose the worst form of legal coercion (generational chattel slavery) on individuals as long as the 'institution' is 'cherished'. Further, as long as they 'believe' (hmm - states 'believe' something - thank god Rothbard was 'libertarian' otherwise that could be construed as a stunningly statist presumption) that another level of state poses a threat to that legal coercion, then it is merely a contractual issue for one group of slaveowners to agree with another group of slaveowners to 'secede' from the level of government that is 'believed' to be threatening the cherished institution of slavery. In order for that cherished institution to remain legal and unthreatened in what Rothbard later called The War of Southern Independence - a 'just war'. More accurately - The War of Southern Statism to Impose Legal Slavery without Abolitionist Noise from Individuals.
Um, yeah. Democrats are responsible for the Trail of Tears, Nullification Crisis, Succession and Civil War, Lincoln Assassination, Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow Laws, Separate but Equal, US entry into WWI, failed New Deal programs that were rejected by the USSC, escalating the Vietnam War, and failed New Society programs that did more to hurt than help minorities, especially blacks.
Don't forget Wilson re-segregating the federal civil service...
Well, democrats are a never ending source of all things evil.
PS….. I’m rebranding.
Japanese internment camps…
Cite?
Glug Glug
women. voters.
Women voters are fine. How else do you get Tulsi, MTG, and others? There are enough progressive men out there that we need non-progressive women to make up for it.
"women. voters"
Actually, that was the Republicans fault (Republicans 200-19 for, Democrats 102-69 for, Union Labor 1-0 for, Prohibitionist 1-0 for).
It identifies as an inverted vaginia, racist.
It is exactly the question that has to be answered. But even then, I think most people (based on latest polling)would rather have a cut off sometime between 12 weeks and 22 weeks.
Why is it sarcasmic is the only one who takes shit for drunk posting?
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Because it's how they refute what I say. I say something they can't refute with an argument, so someone says I'm a drunk. A dozen pile on, and pretty soon what I said is wrong because I'm a drunk. It's the way of the Reason comments. Attack the person, not what they say. Everyone is on the stand in court. Attack their credibility and whatever arguments they might make are completely invalidated. Principles shminciples. It's all about the person, not what they say. It's one big Perry Mason.
When I point this out there is always a chorus of "poor sarc" and "broken" and "so sad" from the very same people who refute arguments by calling people names.
Waiting...
"Why is it sarcasmic is the only one who takes shit for drunk posting?"
Because he never tries soberposting.
A fetus isn't self aware until it's born and 18 months or so have passed. Until then, a fetus isn't really a person, being no more human than a meerkat or an aardvark.
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You're a fucking troll. You don't make any arguments. You make a handful of accusations, troll everyone who refutes you, and then get offended and cry persecution when people tell you to fuck off.
You have no fucking principles, you're a shitposting troll and nothing more.
But it's always everyone else that's wrong. Not poor sarc.
Serious, or trolling?
That’s simply a philosophical opinion, not a fact. There is no compelling reason why someone who disagrees with you about personhood would take up your opinion.
It also has no basis in general ethics or science. The idea that a baby isn't a person until 18 months is ridiculously radical and obviously false to most humans.
It could be argued that many adults don’t have self-awareness….
^ this ^
I think he furiously masturbates to the responses. I would say the same for Buttplug, but he shoots his wad furiously masturbating to child rape videos.
Indeed ML, indeed.
Touché!
Translation: how dare anyone hit back against totalitarian Marxist democrats.
I have been properly shamed.
He knows this. He's just spouting the 2022 election year Dem talking points. It's in the same category as saying Republicans hate all immigrants, or that any questioning of 2020 elections is insurrection. It's effective with the CA soccer moms.
Progressives, anyway.
I am trying to convey how ridiculous the idea of basing abortion policy on the developmental level of a fetus is.
“I am trying to convey how ridiculous the idea is...”
I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. There is only one point along a continuous path where one can logically claim something "begins", and that is at the beginning. Obviously.
Most humans, and especially those in post-industrial nations, don't display a great degree of awareness of either self or surrounding environment. Factor that into your thinking.
In addition to your variation on the No True Scotsman fallacy about Mises libertarians, you now attempt rewriting the US Civil War to make the South statists and the North individualists. Lackwit may not describe you to the fullest.
I suspect 'he' doesn't know, given his history.
Any 'libertarian' (eg Rothbard in that article) who invents excuses and revises history to support the slaveowner side is not some mere No True Scotsman. They either:
a)do not understand human liberty or
b)they believe it only exists for white slaveowners - ie is in a broader sense propertarian not libertarian.