Election 2020

Should Libertarians Vote for Biden, Jorgensen, or Trump? A Soho Forum Debate

Ilya Somin, Angela McArdle, and Francis Menton debate how libertarians should cast their votes in 2020.

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Should libertarians vote for Biden, Jorgensen, or Trump in the next presidential election?

That was the topic of an online Soho Forum debate held on Wednesday, July 22, 2020. It featured George Mason University law professor Ilya SominAngela McArdle, the chair of the Libertarian Party of Los Angeles County; and Francis Menton, a retired attorney who blogs at Manhattan Contrarian. The debate was moderated by Soho Forum Director Gene Epstein.

Arguing that libertarians should vote for Joe Biden was Somin, whose books include Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government Is Smarter and Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom.

In support of Libertarian Party candidate Jo Jorgensen was Angela McArdle, author of The Communist Cookbook: Delicious Dining for the Modern Marxist.

Francis Menton made the case that libertarians should help to re-elect Donald Trump. Menton is a retired partner in the Litigation Department and co-chair of the Business Litigation Practice Group of Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP in New York.

Voting for this online debate was exclusive to the live Zoom audience. McArdle won by convincing 32.5 percent of the audience to change their minds and support Jo Jorgensen. Support for Trump increased by 3 percent, while Biden lost 4.8 percent.

The Soho Forum, sponsored by the Reason Foundation, is a monthly debate series at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village.

Produced by John Osterhoudt.

Photo credit: Joe Biden, Gage Skidmore/CC Flickr; Donald Trump Rally, Gage Skidmore/CC Flickr; Joe Biden 2, stingrayschuller/CC Flickr; Donald Trump 2, Gage Skidmore/CC Flickr; voting, ID 6969021 © Jinlide | Dreamstime.com; End the Fed, Nicholas von Akron/CC Flickr; Trump ACU, Gage Skidmore/CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0); Trump Rasied Fist, Gage Skidmore/https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/; Biden Rally, Gage Skidmore/CC Flickr; Iowa for Biden, Phil Roeder/CC Flickr; Trump and Rand Paul, Jeremy Hogan/Polaris/Newscom

NEXT: Joe Biden's $2 Trillion Green New Deal Is Just a Worn-Out Democratic Jobs Program

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  1. All those who didn’t vote for Trump need to have their LP cards revoked! Traitors!

    1. You are really terrible at strawman arguments.

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      2. It’s an idiot strawman argument losers, cretins and cowards try to fob off on me daily. “Vote for the initiation of force!” That means “vote against Libertarian principles and endorse the looter Kleptocracy’s petulant policies!” THAT takes a special kind of stupid…

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    2. Hold your nose and vote Trump. He has been as close a libertarian president we’ll ever see.

      To do otherwise will put Biden, the anti-thesis of libertarian, in the White House.

      1. Are you serious?

        1. Agreed. Trump is no where near being a libertarian. He is a con man and good at it. If you think there is anything Libertarian about him you are being conned.

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          2. And you think Biden is? Trump isn’t a perfect libertarian, for sure, but Biden is the antithesis of libertarianism.

            1. The Trump that has said that numerous people should be in jail, and that he’d facilitate that, isn’t particularly libertarian.

          3. He’s nowhere near being a Libertarian, AND the most libertarian candidate in the race with even the slightest chance of winning.

            Biden is more of an anti-Libertarian.

            Jorgensen is a nice dream. Or I’d say that if she hadn’t gone all in for open borders, which is why Somin supports her.

        2. I know, right? Hyphenating “antithesis”like that…

      2. Looky there! Another 0.00000007% bootlicking the Kleptocracy! Read “Opinions and Social Pressure” to see why this is cowardly AND dumb. 1. Libertarian spoiler votes pack at least an order of magnitude more law-changing clout than a vote tossed into the dumpster fire. 2. Both kleptocracy parties are the same thing: engines for converting the sanction of the victim into slavery.

      3. Trump is the best president in US History and the most Libertarian-ish president in over 80 years.

        Georgia is going Trump.

      4. Like all politicians, he’s great at allowing you to project your desires onto him with no intention of fulfilling them. Actual promises are hard enough to accomplish, and often fall into that category, too.

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  2. Because your single vote isn’t going to determine the winner, just vote your conscience.

    1. It isn’t how you vote that has an impact. It’s what you say to the people around you. Dictators the world over are terrified of what their people are saying about them because they’re smart. That’s the first step in putting their heads on the pikes where they belong.

      1. So what exactly do you say to people in this day and age of extreme political correctness?

    2. EXACTLY.

      The only wasted vote is a vote that contradicts your own conscience.

    3. Exactly what I do in all national and state-level elections. My vote isn’t deciding anything. The outcome will be the same regardless of who I vote for or if I vote at all. Given that, there’s really no reason not to vote for the candidate I actually prefer.

      1. Given that, there’s really no reason to vote at all.

        1. True, not voting is an option. But I like the ritual and to provide some encouragement to the L party. Also, in local races like city council and school board where vote counts number in the low thousands, there is actually some snowball’s chance in hell that my vote might even make a difference in some race sometime.

    4. And if ten million or fifty million people do that … a miracle may occur. But I’m voting for Jo.

  3. I write in Willie Nelson; libertarian personified.

    1. Willie Nelson is cancelled.
      His grandfather’s, best-friend’s, cousin’s aunt, knew a guy (biblically) who’s ancestors owned slaves. According to America’s new chulsin-songbun system, Willie’s “hostile class”.
      Of course if Willie becomes a DNC party cadre all will be forgiven.

      1. My great-grandfather won the MOH in the civil war. One of that guy’s sons was in the KKK. I’m confused as to whether I’m even allowed to vote.

  4. I’m holding off until there’s a libertarian in the race.

    1. That would be like holding off commenting at Reason until they hire a libertarian writer.

      1. They have Stossel, don’t they?

        1. Whatever happened to Naomi? She brocked so well…

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=floiPTP7BLo

          1. Wait, she only cares about his bitcoin?

            Women, amirite?

            1. They say size doesn’t matter, but then they see your blockchain…

              1. Blockchain is clearly a dogwhistle harking back to the days when slaves in chains were sold on auction blocks!

                Blockchain is racist!

                Also, we must eliminate the use of the binary in computing!

                https://youtu.be/9edtHJMaws0

                1. It is incredibly offensive to people who can’t count above zero

      2. That was funny. Hey, they want to get invited to all the cocktail parties, don’t ya know.

    2. Better to vote now before Das Boothead and Zippy replace the entire LP platform with an anarchist communist manifesto.

    3. It seems there are Democrats who like to own guns and may be moderate who thus call themselves libertarian and Republicans who like doing drugs and are against spending money on fruitless efforts other than banning abortion and thus call themselves libertarian. In the end, there are no true libertarians, just a tactical peace between shooters and shooters, albeit different styles. I doubt there are but a very few people who aren’t interested in controlling the behavior of anyone else which is how I feel a true libertarian would desire.

      1. “It seems there are Democrats who like to own guns and may be moderate who thus call themselves libertarian and Republicans who like doing drugs and are against spending money on fruitless efforts other than banning abortion and thus call themselves libertarian. ”

        I’m registered as a Republican, would never even take a drink, let alone any drugs (and I never have done either of those), and I don’t want abortion banned or restricted (though I do want Roe v. Wade overturned). I think tobacco, pot, alcohol, and the harder drugs are disgusting and that only a total moron would use them (true medicinal purposes excepted), but banning them is not and never has been the answer.

        I’m strongly pro-gun, a near absolutist on free speech and expression, a strong supporter of federalism, and I think the founding fathers were titans among men, and that the Constitution is the greatest political document in the history of the world. I’d like to see the federal government reduced to a level of power less than what the EU government currently has (aka an ACTUAL federation), and to reduce its spending to a level commensurate with what it had ballooned up to by the end of FDR’s presidency. For now. We can cut it more later!

        I want to end the welfare state, the drug war, all of the alphabet soup federal agencies and departments, and to have all of the unconstitutional federal laws (nearly all of them) repealed, and to end the regulatory state where Congress delegates its legislative power to unelected bureaucrats to write regs that have the force of law.

        I would like people to keep what they earn, and to be able to start and run businesses as they see fit, with about the same level of effort as a kiddo starting a lemonade stand. That includes the choice of what to pay employees and what benefits to provide to them.

        I favor the legalization of prostitution, gambling, and all of the other “crimes” that only involve consenting adults. No, the “morality of the community” is not a valid victim, and that being the case, there is no crime there. If we bring this stuff out of the shadows, the bad actors cannot as easily hide as they now can.

        I would like our government to stop trying to be the world’s policeman, and to let other counties sort out their own affairs. That includes foreign aid. No regular welfare, no corporate welfare, no international welfare. No nation building, no exporting freedom at gunpoint, none of that.

        And yes, I was a college Republican, have always considered myself a Republican by party and a lower-case L libertarian in philosophy, and have yet to find a single Democrat that I thought was worth voting for. I’ve often held my nose to vote for Republicans, but as bad as some of them are, the Democrats have always been so much worse that it was not a choice at all. I’m not one to cast a protest vote that has no chance of accomplishing anything I’d recognize as a positive result. I could vote for our “woke” “Libertarian” candidate, but what would that accomplish?… helping to send a senile old plagiarist (who was unintelligent and scatterbrained even before he had dementia) to the White House to be the puppet of some Marxist who is so far left that s/he would be less electable than JOE BIDEN? If whomever will be the puppeteer wants to run the country, let that person come forward and run for the office personally. Don’t hide behind a doddering old man who doesn’t know where he is.

        So, in terms of your libertarian litmus test, what does that make me?

        1. So, in terms of your libertarian litmus test, what does that make me?

          My write-in for President.

  5. I think the LP should spend the next few election cycles running campaigns of subversion. Knowing that they’re not really going to win anything, they should use the 3rd party pulpit to do what third parties do: nudge the national debate towards the issues that are important to the party.

    As such, the LP should run nothing but women of color for president, and play this card at every turn and opportunity, forcing the predominant culture and media to display its hypocrisy and eventually back away from identity politics. That would allow any libertarian to shove that candidate into the faces of friends and associates, ~100% of whom repeat the trope of needing a ‘woman of color’ in the office– to admit that they don’t give two shits about ‘women of color’ and are essentially racists who assume that ‘women of color’ come along with a pre-fab set of ideological markers.

    1. I think the LP should spend the next few election cycles running campaigns of subversion.

      We should start by burning buildings and looting.

      1. I know a certain “libertarian” publication that would run cover for us by saying we’re just peacefully protesting.

    2. I think the LP should spend the next few election cycles nominating libertarians, and not people like “Bake the fucking cake” Johnson or Social Justice Jorgensen.

      1. Like who? Ron Paul?

        1. He’s getting up there. Almost as old as your Biden.

    3. Terry Crews in drag. Why settle for a mere woman of color when you can go for the “identifying as” lesbian transgender woman of color.

      1. I would vote for him. Her. Them. Xie?

        1. “You’re in the voting booth. Now I’m in a dress! Old Spice.”

    4. They can start this go around.

      “Vote for a woman instead of a molester” seems like a good campaign slogan.

    5. Note to foreign readers: the sockpuppet is an antichoice male republican in sheets-soiled clothing.

  6. I want to vote against.

  7. If you’re planning to defend voting for Biden after he revealed his Green New Deal, then someone should show up to defend principled non-voting.

    Principled non-voting is a no-brainer compared to the libertarian case for voting for Biden. There is no principled libertarian case for voting for Biden–certainly not one that accounts for the Democrats’ hostility to free expression, support for the Green New Deal, and support for Medicare for All.

    The reason people like ChemJeff and Tony ignore facts and logic is because the facts won’t support their irrational conclusions. I defy anyone to defend voting for Biden from a libertarian perspective using facts and logic.

    And because Biden is such a big threat to libertarian capitalism may be the most fact based, rational reason to vote for President Trump.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

    1. I defy anyone to defend voting for Biden from a libertarian perspective using facts and logic.

      There’s no Malarkey with Biden.

      Boom, facts and logic. What do I win?

      1. You’re being factious, right?

        1. There’s no one more factious than I.

    2. I defy anyone to defend voting for Biden from a libertarian perspective using facts and logic.

      He knows how to turn a quick buck? Best I got.

      1. If some people genuinely enjoy bending over and grabbing their ankles so Joe Biden can take whatever he wants, then voting for him might make sense from that libertarian perspective. But looking back through my own legs to see Joe Biden’s pants around his ankles, to me, that isn’t what I was talking about when I was talking about, “a libertarian perspective”.

        1. My guess is you’d have nothing to fear from this dementia patient.

          1. Unless you’ve got PTSD around hair sniffing.

    3. Don’t forget that Slow Joe will try to get us into the Paris accord. Billions down the toilet!!

    4. I certainly don’t think there is much of a libertarian case to vote for Biden based on the totality of issues alone.

      Even for the narrow single-issue-type voters that might attract a libertarian to vote for Biden, then Jorgensen already fits the bill, and usually in a better way. For the single-issue abortion voters, JoJo is also pro-choice, like Biden. For the single-issue environment/climate change voters, JoJo also believes climate change is a problem, like Biden, but she has the added benefit of not wanting massive government spending to try to fix it.

      I think the only ‘libertarian’ case to vote for Biden is a tactical one. But that is not a ‘libertarian’ case per se, that is the case for everyone who is anti-Trump, libertarian or not. Biden would make a better chief executive than Trump. But, so would JoJo. Heck, half of the people in the phone book would make a better chief executive than Trump.

      I plan on voting for JoJo, and my state is expected to be “in play” at least nominally. Because I don’t believe in this tactical vote bullshit. A voter ought to vote his/her conscience, and if none of the candidates running permits you to vote for him/her with a clean conscience, then don’t vote for any of them. They don’t deserve it. YOU are the one who has to live with the vote you cast, not them.

      1. “I plan on voting for JoJo”
        No you don’t.

        1. He will vote for Biden.

      2. Is it tactical voting if you simply acknowledge that one of two candidates will actiallly win, and that we have a history of close elections lately? Given only two possible outcomes, any action taken is a vote for one or the other, in the end. I think it’s more morally upstanding to realize that and make a grown-up choice, personally.

        1. Note to foreign readers: Tony’s communist ideology is being replaced by libertarian THIRD party spoiler votes. This is classical logistics curve math. Libertarian planks are ousting looter planks the way Cassettes replaced vinyl records and CDs replaced cassettes. Gone are the days when the only opposition was the communist party in various masks.

    5. Yeah but Ken, what if I told you…ORANGE MAN BAD!

      1. You just concisely summed up Chemjeff’s entire argument above.

  8. Kanye West, obviously

    1. An anti-abortion black Christian. Where’s my absentee ballot?

  9. Dog shit, cat shit, or pig shit… Such a difficult decision…

    1. Dog shit usually smells the least bad of the three, but cats usually hide/bury their shit, and pig shit (to borrow a phrase common among hog farmers) smells like money…

      Which is which in this metaphor though?

      1. It’s all shit.

        1. Ain’t politics grand.

          1. It’s a shit cake with shit frosting and little shit flowers. Whee!

      2. It’s all shit.

      3. Sorry for the double post. Not intentional.

        1. Must be from all the drinks.

    2. Squirrelly can help you figure it out. He eats all kinds of shit.

  10. I was going to vote for the libertarian, but heard that’s throwing my vote away, so I guess I have to vote republican.

    1. My vote is free because it’s going Biden, good and hard. So my vote is basically an ‘information only’ vote.

      1. Sorry, My vote is free because my state is going Biden, good and hard.

        1. Or it was a Freudian slip.

        2. There’s only one thing that can still get old Joe good and hard and it’s not your state.

  11. The Ds have already told us what they’re planning: massive fraud and intimidation.
    But sure, both sides yourself right onto the cattle cars

    1. The election is too important to leave it entirely up to those icky voters

      1. That’s the beauty of mail-in votes.
        The voters still get to vote and the DNC still gets the result it wants. It’s win-win.

      2. Are you from the future?

    2. But sure, both sides yourself right onto the cattle cars

      Ya know, you are providing plenty of good reasons yourself to vote for Biden – so as to vote against insane conspiracy bullshit like this. You really think Joe f’n Biden is going to bring out the cattle cars? Joe Biden is the Jeb Bush of Team Blue. He is the most milquetoast moderate that you can possibly imagine. That’s why Obama picked him in 08 after all – because he was a “safe choice”. This is nuts.

      1. Because Joe doesn’t know what day it is and he’ll do what he’s told by his handlers.

        1. Uh huh so Biden will authorize cattle cars and gulags for conservatives because… he puts AOC in charge of the Department of Gulags?

            1. Sure. And Trump will put Steve Miller in charge of the Department of Murdering Immigrants.

              1. It is fucking hilarious how you say to vote for Biden due to insane conspiracy theories… then claim trump is killing immigrants.

                Fucking hilarious.

                After a week of decrying honest conversations.

                1. It is fucking hilarious how you say to vote for Biden due to insane conspiracy theories…

                  https://reason.com/video/should-libertarians-vote-for-biden-jorgensen-or-trump-a-soho-forum-debate/#comment-8367677

                  1. Pedo Jeffy, I’m sure you will vote for Biden, as he will let child rapist illegals into the US. Thereby making your dreams come true.

          1. AmSoc was cheering this prospect giddily in a different thread.

            Like, down to naming AOC specifically.

  12. This liberal will write Jesse Ventura on the ballot.

    1. Or Tulsi Gabbard.

      1. I wonder why the democrats were so terribly afraid of Tulsi. She was actually palatable on a range of issues and was very personable. She would have been a formidable candidate against Trump, and she’s pretty far to the left, despite her military background.

  13. The only remotely libertarian way I could see for Biden, is it would hilarious we’d have dementia riddled old person as president who wears diapers. My problem with this is you could have that with Trump.

    1. Who says we don’t already?

      1. That’s the joke.

        1. Jeff doesn’t do humor.

    2. Actually, not so much. At least not yet.

      I avoid watching Trump speak like the plague. But the wife is obsessed with Trump. She’s all-in on TDS. So she put on his Tulsa rally just so she could watch CNN and MSNBC talk about how evil it was. So it was on and I was in the room.

      He was actually a pretty great speaker. I was stunned.

      I’ve seen enough of him over the years – having had my fill long before the first season of The Apprentice finished. My impression was that he always spoke in these ridiculous, childish phrases. “It will be wonderful. Terrific. The best!” I remember him talking about his new Trump branded water on The Apprentice. Exactly that same language. He sounded like a mentally challenged 4th grader.

      What I caught of him in the debates sounded the same. “It will be beautiful. Amazing. I will get the best people. The best”. Who talks like that?

      Well, apparently not Trump either. In his Tulsa appearance he was really funny. And energetic. He basically did a 10 minute standup routine lampooning the press for obsessing about him walking down a ramp. It was really good. Quite funny.

      I wrote about my impressions here. It became clear to me watching that performance that I have been punked. He completely plays a character in most of his public appearances. Scott Adams was right. It is some sort of persuasion technique he uses when he talks like that mentally challenged 4th grader. It doesn’t work on me at all – but I guess it works on enough people to make a difference.

      He is far, far from senility at this point. He spoke in Tulsa without a teleprompter, extemporizing about various topics in a well-organized version of stream of consciousness, if that is a thing. It played like a good standup routine.

      This is no “put the record player on at night for the kids” type of senior.

  14. At least with Biden we wouldn’t have a war with China. It would be a mostly peaceful regime change.

    1. think of the investment in american business.

    2. I can just see Biden’s Secretary of State handing Xi another reset button.

      1. Biden’s SECSTATE is going to be so far left, he/she/it will probably hand Xi the launch codes.

        1. Sure. And Trump will start WW3 right?

          This type of fearmongering is part of the problem here. This is how Team Red and Team Blue generate votes for their pathetic ideas – not by persuasion but by demagoguery.

          1. The funny part of this comment is you actually accused trump of starting WW3 after Komeini.

            1. Umm no I didn’t. I accused him of inflaming tensions, which he did. I never accused him of starting WW3. Why don’t you quit lying for a change.

              1. Why do you gaslight? No one buys it.

              2. You’re the last one to call anyone out for lying.

            2. He’s such a shitty 五毛. He can’t even remember his invective from a half a year ago.
              Media Matters should really demand its fifty cents back.

          2. This type of fearmongering is part of the problem here.

            One of the signs of a functioning intellect is the ability to understand humor.

        2. Xe will hand Xi the codes?

    3. Ah so… The Democratic Socialist States of Amerika?

  15. My state went to Clinton so it doesn’t matter this election. I will vote trump anyway just to piss people off. I voted for Johnson last time as my protest. But any libertarian voting for Biden is a fucking idiot.

    I may pull a road house and drive a beater car with trump maga stickers. Need extra tires.

  16. 2016 was the year I woke up and realized the “bOtH sIdEs” meme had it wrong: There actually was no difference. Donald Trump, a lifelong limousine liberal and all-around crooked New York con man took the helm of the Republican party and revealed to all that it just doesn’t matter, the same statist shit comes out of both assholes. Democrats lie cheat and steal but lie that they are only going to do it to people you don’t like. Republicans lie that they won’t do anything bad and then lie cheat and steal. It’s not even just the same actions, it’s the same people.

    1. >>revealed to all that it just doesn’t matter

      yep. John Edwards was correct w/his Two Americas he just pegged the classes wrong.

    2. the same statist shit comes out of both assholes
      You can thank John McCain and Paul Ryan for half of it.

    3. It is all tribal bullshit with Team Red and Team Blue.

      Look at what Trump did today. He signed an executive order which permitted states to import drugs from Canada. This is literally something that Obama campaigned on in 2008 but he did not implement in ObamaCare. And so of course now that Trump is doing it, Team Blue is freaking out about it. It’s all dumb.

      1. So you’re against it.

      2. This surprises you? Remember Progressives once supported OTC birth control, but when Republicans started floating the idea suddenly they are opposed to it heart, mind and soul. I am actually very surprised that they haven’t yet changed their mantra on face masks now that Trump is encouraging people to wear them.

      3. It may be a crack in my observation Dems and the media are 100% Trump contrarian, where everything he does is met with a talking head panel lamenting existence.

    4. I’m still enjoying the $200 a month less in taxes I’m paying.

  17. Trump is dead wrong on so many things, it is tempting to think Biden must be better in something. But what?

    Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize, then went to war at every opportunity. He was worse than Bush Jr or Sr, or Clinton, or Reagan. Biden was a great cheer leader, and I can tell you from experience, the worst warmongers are the weak ones, thinking they have to prove they aren’t softies.

    Not spending either. He wants AOC in charge of the Green New Deal, of restructuring the economy to show that what went wrong in Venezuela was they didn’t go hard enough. The economy would be trashed within months of the election, spiraling downwards even before the inauguration.

    Civil liberties? Considering what is happening with COVID lockdowns in the Democratic states, and what is happening in Portland right now, you can kiss civil society goodbye, you can kiss your guns goodbye, and you can kiss your civil liberties goodbye. Don’t forget Citizens United or Section 230. Anti-trust, pointless random arbitrary breakup is thy name.

    Immigration? No, Biden has to prove he’s not a softie, so he’ll double down on Trump’s policies.

    Trade? Democrats in general and Biden specifically again will just double down on Trump.

    The only things Trump has actually done any good are the judiciary and slowing down regulatory buildup. Biden will make both much worse.

    There is zero libertarian argument for Biden. There is a little libertarian argument for Trump. Unless you live in a state where it’s going to be close, there is zero tactical argument for either one. I live in California and will either vote for the LP or not vote at all.

    1. Immigration? No, Biden has to prove he’s not a softie, so he’ll double down on Trump’s policies.

      Well I don’t know about that. It’s hard to imagine being worse than Trump on immigration. I think a President Biden would at least get legal status for the DACA/Dreamer crowd. But if a libertarian is a single-issue immigration voter, JoJo is better than either Biden or Trump on this matter, so there’s no reason to vote for JoJo on this matter alone.

      1. *no reason NOT to vote for JoJo on this matter alone

      2. I know right? Asking congress to change immigration laws if they want DACA is so fucking terrible. He should just do what he wants by fiat.

      3. Because you have little imagination. There are several cases of people much worse than Trump on immigration. His predecessor was hardly any better just spoke softer about it. The detention camps everyone blames on Trump, started by his predecessor. Mass deportation. Yep his predecessor. Trump just says mean things while doing almost the same shit the previous administration did.

        1. I think ChemJeff should study how the early progressive presidents treated immigrants. Especially FDR, turning a boat load of Jews fleeing persecution back to Germany, where most perished in concentration camps. But Trump ending an unconstitutional executive order and making congress do their job is way worse than aiding Hitler in his final solution.

      4. On immigration, Jeffy’s idea of ‘evil’ is America’s good. But then, this the same idiot who favors unrestricted access to America and it’s children for child rapist illegals.

    2. Vote jojo. I’ve been a dyed in the wool LIB since Ed Clark’s 1980 run and, flawed as she is, throwing my vote away to jojo will be easy to defend.

      I do wish the LP would drop the open border bs.

    3. Yeah, I know the Reason editors will throw out a mocking: “But, Gorsuch“—but seriously, “but, Gorsuch (and Kavanaugh has been mostly okay).

      That’s enough for me.

      Trump mostly sucks. But imagine a President Ocasio-Cortez in 10 years, with a 5-4 or 6-3 SCOTUS advantage (after Biden is able to replace Ginsburg, Breyer, and flip Thomas’s seat).

      Call me a Red team apologist, but that scenario is too bad to contemplate.

      1. Then you are giving in to fear.
        There is not going to be a “President Ocasio-Cortez”. That is a bogeyman created by Team Red in order to scare you into voting for them.
        Yes if Biden wins, it’s a pretty strong bet that RBG retires and there is a liberal to replace her. That preserves the status quo.

        And if you want to go by age:
        Ginsburg is 87 years old.
        Breyer is 81 years old.
        Thomas is 72 years old.
        Alito is 70 years old.

        Voting on the basis of Supreme Court nominations just doesn’t work this time around.

        1. I disagree . You think an 85 or 89-year old Breyer doesn’t retire during a Biden presidency?

          And you’re betting on an overweight black man to live until he is 80 (at least)?

          It also doesn’t just “preserve” the status quo—it turns an 87-year old RBG into a 45-year old that’s even more of an outright progressive. That’s *cementing*, not preserving.

          1. If you hadn’t guessed yet, ChemJeff suffers a severe case if conservatives bad, shows empathy towards progressive ideals at almost every chance he gets but claims to be a Libertarian because he thinks it’s cool. If you dare challenge him, he will resort to goal post shifting and ad hominem a by labeling you a Trump cultist.

            1. You know, I used to be a conservative. Listened to Rush Limbaugh and everything. What I realized is that they are selling snake oil. They are not being honest. They are also not sincere in defending liberty. Look how quickly people like Limbaugh and Hannity and the rest of the right-wing grifters decided to ignore their previous statements and support Trump, who has blown up the debt, abridged gun rights, done little except “trigger the libs” and keep the brown people out. I at one time supported conservatives because I thought conservatism meant support for individual liberty. I was wrong, and Trump illustrated that quite clearly. The Republican Party is full of a bunch of cultists who desire power only in the name of Dear Leader Trump who is charismatic enough to deliver it to them. Liberty is too important to be left to those clowns.

              1. If you support individual liberties, how could you even begin to defend voting for Biden? Is he better than the Republicans on health care? Nope. Trade? Nope? Climate Change? Nope. Judicial appointments? Nope. Open ended wars? Hell he is Mike’s worse than Trump on this, he opposes Trump’s pullout in Afghanistan. Gun control? Not even close, he wants to reinstate the assault weapons ban and expand it. Border enforcement? Only if you think they really want to fix it, when they didn’t even try under Obama. Freedom of speech? Again a big solid Nope. Regulations and taxes? Again not even fucking close. Deficit/debt spending? Again nope (not that either is great). Free Enterprise? Again, not even fucking close. You claim to be for Jorgenson but over half of your posts today have been defending Biden, while bashing Trump.

                1. In fact, there doesn’t really seem to be any real criticism of Biden in most of your posts, even the ones where you compare him to Jorgenson.

                2. If you support individual liberties, how could you even begin to defend voting for Biden?

                  https://reason.com/video/should-libertarians-vote-for-biden-jorgensen-or-trump-a-soho-forum-debate/#comment-8367677

                  Please read this. It may answer some of your questions.

                  1. Do you have any original thoughts of your own, or just follow the crowd?

                3. Trump is far from perfect. He’s still far better than anyone the Democrats have run during my adult lifetime. That’s saying something… under different circumstances, I could be a Trump detractor, but under the circumstances that actually exist, he’s the best we’ve got.

              2. You were never a conservative. You hold no conservative ideals.

            2. I’d settle for him doing simple math, and realizing that my fear was 8-10 years down the road.

              Giving me the current ages of Justices, without adding the 8-10 years, misses my point.

          2. Either way you are giving in to fear. Plus, why TF are you relying on SCOTUS to bail you out in the first place?

            1. Because Congress has long since relegated it’s duty to protect the Constitution.

              1. Relying on undemocratic institutions to bail you out is part of the problem here.

                1. Nor is relying on Biden, whose claim to fame is going along to get along, to stand up to the emboldened progressive wing of his party any less problematic. In fact, I would rather rely on Mr Penalty Tax than on Biden finally growing a spine and developing principles that weren’t for sale.

                2. Sure. I hate that we can’t trust the Legislative and Executive branches to recognize that the Constitution exists.

                  But—we can’t.

                  So we have to hope for a final bulwark.

            2. If “basing a decision on a risk analysis” is the equivalent of “giving into fear”—sure.

              I also “give into fear” when I decline to play Russian Roulette.

              And sure, SCOTUS is largely a disappointment, but Trump has appointed 2 of the 3 best Justices on the Court, in my view. So I’ll hope that he gets another good one if he is around for 4 more years.

              1. And Obama changed the left paradigm. The RBG block votes a leftist outcome based philosophy. Obama’s two nominees – and particularly Kagan – vote on a partisan Democrat basis. Those often align, but not always. Sometimes a principled liberal will vote against the DNC. Don’t count on Biden’s nominees to be the former instead of the latter. That ship seems to have sailed for their team.

                Judging by Biden’s career, you would expect centrist democrat with some hawkish tendencies and some downright right-wing stuff sprinkled in here and there. But the Biden of old isn’t what we have today. He’s tied hand and foot to the far-left progressives who want to tear down society and remake it. Maybe he thinks he’s strong enough to hold them in check. But I sincerely doubt that he’ll be calling any of the shots if he takes office.

  18. In my state (OR) it makes NO difference who I vote for. In 2016 I voted for the Libertarian candidate who had zero chance. This state is so blue (thank you nothing, Portland) that the Electoral votes all go to whoever has a D next to their name. Every single time. Until that changes, my vote is pretty much pointless.

    1. Your true blue neighbors may be afraid of being found out… it might be closer than you think.

      1. Probably not. In rural America, the partisan divide is not nearly as stark as in Urban America. We simply choose to treat people like people not try to cancel them because they vote differently than we do. Then again, most rural Democrats are far less progressive than their urban counterparts.

        1. Minnesota, Washington, and Oregon have seen their Democrat governments cede sections, if not whole cities, to violent psychotics.
          Meanwhile, New Jersey and Pennsylvania have basically imposed martial law and driven thousands of businesses under with millions losing their jobs.

          If not for vote fraud, which the Ds have been very clear about their intent to commit, are we sure these states wouldn’t consider leaving the Dem plantation?

  19. they should vote for the libertarian candidate like my friend williams25248 above. those in solid blue states should not waste a minute of their time voting unless they feel a need to blather about “wasting” a vote. knock yourselves out a second time, the electoral college already knocked you out once.

    trump is an unprincipled authoritarian asswipe, biden is a non compos mentis drooling gas bag…so godd dammit vote libertarian and sleep soundly knowing you did not lend a hand to raise the flag atop no ship of fools

    1. But the reality of our 2 party system (basically the same type of people with minimal differences no matter R or D) means we will get either the authoritarian asswipe (part 2) or the drooling gas bag. We are guaranteed to get one of them.

      1. Don’t allow them to have a “mandate”.

        1. True, but so many people are buried in this R/D system that those of us who see the problem don’t have sufficient influence to change that “mandate”. As Morpheus said in the Matrix, “many of these people are not ready to be unplugged.” I’d say most people don’t realize they’re plugged into this system.

      2. i’ve been voting libertarian for 35 years and realized a few years back that i’ve never voted for the winner in a national election. that’s fine, i am not voting so i can say my vote choice won, i seek to support those who are most aligned with my philosophy. i dont care a single damn bit that gary johnson didn’t know where aleppo was NEITHER DID ANY OF THE FOLKS THAT MADE IT A BIG DEAL until they had a chance to snivvel about it. i’m in calif and could easily vote for kamala harris and feinstein if the need to have voted for the winner was a concern. the BEAUTY of the electoral college is that i can choose to not vote for either trump or biden and it won’t matter. i vote libertarian and will continue to do so. i will say i did register republican a few years back to vote for ron paul in the primary. i held my nose as i registered but was STOKED to vote for him. i was doubly stoked to re-register libertarian after ron paul got shanked in the primary.

    2. Trump is so authoritarian that he hasn’t gone to war, allowed a coup attempt thinly veiled as an investigation into him to proceed uninterrupted, left states to make their own decisions about virus response, has allowed states to (not) deal with open insurrection within them, and asked congress to fix their immigration mess. Oh, and he hasn’t inhibited a blatantly hostile and fraudulent media at all, except to speak to/through them more than any president in history.

      I know it threatens your Both Sides Faith, but it is possible to think about the applicability of your mantra before mindlessly reciting it

      Meanwhile, the other side: GND (economic totalitarianism), cancel culture (social totalitarianism), and court packing (judicial totalitarianism)… just to name a few

      1. But Trump tweets rude and impolitic things! That makes him literally worse than Hitler.

  20. So I’m listening to the debate.
    Both Prof. Somin (Biden) and Mr. Menton (Trump) made tactical arguments for voting for their respective candidates.

    And frankly Mr. Menton, when he is not apologetic in his support of Trump, sounds like he’s a Reason commenter. He described Biden as “totally a creature of the crazy left wing of the Democratic Party”. Where does this nonsense come from? Biden is plain vanilla bland. He is not some flaming socialist. Ridiculous.

    1. Have you even bothered to look at the policy plans Biden is running on? For fucks sake you can be ignorant sometimes.

    2. If you think Medicare for all and Green New Deal is vanilla, well enough said.

      1. Biden didn’t buy into Sanders-style Medicare For All. His proposal is the public option, the same as what Obama proposed in 2009.

        https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/payer/biden-sanders-task-force-health-platform-pushes-for-public-option-a-free-covid-19-vaccine

        The public option isn’t great, but it is not OMG SOCIALISM as envisioned by the “crazy left wing of the Democratic Party”. Do you see the difference?

        1. A public option is still government controlled health care and by no means at all defensible and the party fully admits it is just a stepping stone to medicate for all. Besides if he wins it is likely the Democrats, a large portion of whom will be the new brand of progressives, will control both houses to. So, you have to hope that Joe “go along to get along” will grow a spine and actually veto any monstrosity they pass.

          1. ONCE AGAIN…
            I neither endorsed nor supported the idea of a “public option” for health insurance.
            I simply pointed out that it was not the same as Sanders’ idea of “Medicare for all”.
            Is that okay? Is it okay to discern differences between what one Democrat says compared to another? Or am I supposed to just lump all of it together as OMG SOSHALISHM!!!!!!!!!!????????

            Personally what I support is universal HSA accounts for everyone.

            1. First of all you brought up the straw man that I said it was socialism. Those words never appeared in my posts. And you said it wasn’t great but… Which implies you still think it is preferable to medicare for all. So basically, you just implied that fascism is preferable to socialism. If that isn’t what you meant all you had to say was he actually supports a public option, which is just as bad. But no, you had to imply it was somehow more preferable. In your attempt to portray Biden as a centrist, you keep demonstrating how non-centrist he actually is, and your empathy for him, rather you vote for him or not. If you want people to stop criticizing you for defending him, than stop defending him. Stop trying to argue he is a centrist. Rather you admit it or not, you sure look like you are defending him and saying his policies really aren’t all that bad, so he is preferable to Trump. I don’t see how he is at all preferable to Trump on just about any fucking issue. But unlike you, I am not really arguing for Trump’s acceptability, just pointing out that your criticisms of Trump apply equally, if not more, to Biden.

              1. I think that a “public option” is better than direct nationalization a la Medicare For All. Yes that is correct. It is like saying being fucked up the ass with Trump’s tiny dick is better than being fucked up the ass with a horse dick. Get it? Neither one is preferable. I don’t want either. But they’re different. I’m not going to buy in to the lie that they are both the same.

                1. So you are stating Mussolini style fascism is preferable to Chavez style Socialism. Interesting. How about neither is defenisible and neither is preferable to the other in regards to individual liberty? It isn’t that hard. Here’s some free advice, put down the shovel, and stop digging. Evil is evil and none is preferable to the other. It isn’t really that hard to grasp. It is still government control and it still wealth redistribution and both are equally bad for capitalism and individual liberty.

        2. And how is the government getting involved in competing with private business not socialism. You know your right, that is actually fascism, literally.

          1. That isn’t even hyperbole, that is one of the hallmarks of fascism. The real kind not labeling your opponents fascists, but dyed in the wool, Mussolini in Italy in the 1930s fascism.

          2. I don’t support the public option.
            I don’t support “Medicare for all”.
            I also recognize that “public option” and “Medicare for all” are not the same thing.
            Get it?

            1. No, you are excusing fascism by stating well, at least it’s not socialism. That was your actual argument. As if either were better than the former.

            2. One is fascism one is socialism. You’re right they aren’t exactly the same thing, but who the fuck cares? Are either really better than the other?

              1. Definition of fascism
                1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

                Yeah, that’s not Biden.

                1. That is a bullshit definition. It definitely doesn’t define Mussolini fascism. What are the underlying economic principles of fascism?

                  1. Strict regulations of businesses, government directly competing with private industry, the government telling businesses what they have to sell, contr of political speech through campaign regulations etc. Seems like severe economic and social regimentation to me.

                    1. Leftists have to pretend that the entirety of fascism is nationalist racism, otherwise they’d have to admit that they’re fellow travelers

                    2. And honestly, the only thing they really object to is the nationalism

                2. And both the ACA and the public option are fascist in the sense of severe economic regimentation. Keep digging.

                3. Also if you vote for Trump isn’t racist? Affirmative action, reparations, white guilt/fragility/privilege etc?
                  And Biden also describes himself as a New Deal Democrat. You do know the New Deal was borrowed by FDR from Hitler and Mussolini, right?

    3. So far you have played that Biden is vanilla. Any tying him to his actual policies is just scare mongering by the right and the best is he isn’t Trump. I think the latter one is the only thing that matters to you. I am betting if Bernie got the nomination you would be making very similar arguments. Hell, if Chavez was raised from the dead, and somehow qualified and won the nomination, you would probably be making the same fucking argument.

        1. That isn’t a rejoinder or a defense of your earlier statements. Nice dodge…

          1. You mean, where I say that not even vanilla Biden is worthy of my support? So what makes you think that the more radical Sanders or some hypothetical American Chavez would be?

            1. No, you said that once, but hardly criticized him then you spent the rest of your posts defending him. Not a very convincing defense if that is what you are going with.

              1. What do you expect me to say? OMG BIDEN IS A MARXIST COMMUNIST????? Because that isn’t true. He is a vanilla centrist. He still has a lot of terrible ideas and that is not worthy of my support. But he isn’t some flaming socialist. Is it some unpardonable sin now to speak the truth about Democrats?

                1. For not being a flaming socialist he sure toes the line on a lot of their programs. As for what you should say, maybe stop trying to defend him when people point out how bad he is. And stop with the hyperbolic, straw man argument that people are calling him a flaming marxist. No we are saying that there can be absolutely zero Libertarian argument for Biden, especially considering how much power the progressive caucus now holds in his party. Just stop defending him. Period. There is no defense. There isn’t much defense for Trump either, but there is less for Biden, who almost everyone, including many on the left admit, has no real principles and will just serve as a figurehead while they use the power of Congress to get their programs through. You state Biden isn’t a Marxist, but had he shown any real willpower not to toe the party line, ever, in his career?

                  1. As for what you should say, maybe stop trying to defend him when people point out how bad he is.

                    What you really mean is, “Why don’t you let those lies about Biden just slip through even though you know they aren’t true?”

                    1. What lies? You haven’t pointed out a single lie just made assertions. Other than correcting me that he favors fascism (public option) to socialism (medicare for all). Yeah you sure showed me.

                  2. No we are saying that there can be absolutely zero Libertarian argument for Biden,

                    WHICH IS WHAT I FUCKING SAID ALREADY

                    https://reason.com/video/should-libertarians-vote-for-biden-jorgensen-or-trump-a-soho-forum-debate/#comment-8367677

                    God dammit. Decisions should be based on the truth, not based on right-wing narratives.

                    1. So, the Reason story on his Green New Deal was right wing narrative? You keep using that straw man of right wing narrative. Fuck, Reason is one of only two media that I read on a common basis. Quillette is the other. Guess they must be right wing narrative. Come on man. Stop with the ad hominems. Pointing out that Biden has embraced, for the most part, the progressive platform, and that he is well known his entire career for holding his finger to the wind, with no principles isn’t right wing narrative. It is the fucking truth.

                    2. Will you at least admit that Biden’s “Green New Deal” plan is different than AOC’s “Green New Deal” plan?

                    3. Yeah one is full socialism the other slightly less but still socialism, with some fascism and protectionism thrown in. So fucking what?

                    4. Why won’t you answer a question? You are the one who asserted the left is slightly better on individual liberty? I’ve asked you twice at least to provide examples and given you examples of how they are mostly worse.

                  3. What you want is for me to buy in to all the right-wing lies about Biden. No, I won’t do that. That doesn’t mean I endorse Biden. It means I don’t endorse the right-wing lies.

                    1. Why do you label it right wing lies, but I’ve never seen you use the same phrase to describe the left? I mean didn’t Biden himself state that Romney wanted to put blacks back in chains? You call them right wing lies, but you haven’t yet shown where the lies are. You just demand we accept your analysis of Biden’s character, rather than his fucking history and platform.

                    2. Because I’m not “fair and balanced” and never claimed to be?

                      Yes, I admit it, I am more critical of the right than I am of the left. It is true.

                      EVEN STILL, I am not voting for Biden, the most milquetoast moderate Democrat in recent history.

                      If Biden won’t cause me to vote for Team Blue, nothing will. And that is because they don’t really support liberty. They only selectively support it. Maybe a little bit better than Team Red, but not enough to be worthy of my support.

                      Why don’t you take a win and be happy with it?

                    3. Name me one fucking thing that the left is better on when it comes to individual liberty, maybe if you believe in abortions right up until birth. Free speech? Gun control? Protectionism? Endless wars? Freedom of religion? Race relations? Come-on name one thing. Because that is the biggest crock of shit I’ve ever seen you state.

                    4. Didn’t I just say that I wasn’t supporting Team Blue? Because they aren’t sincere supporters of individual liberty?

                    5. Again, why won’t you take a win and go with it?

                    6. Because you are dodging the issue and trying to act magnanimous. You made a fairly definitive statement that leftist are better on individual rights. Back it up.

    4. He’s Deep State Joe – been on the wrong side of everything for 40 years.

      This election is a choice between rhino shit and hippo shit.

    5. “Biden is plain vanilla bland. He is not some flaming socialist.”

      He’s also not going to be running the country, whatever the election results are. His handlers will be flaming socialists, you can bet on that.

  21. LOL the more I listen to this debate, the more I realize Mr. Menton simply doesn’t know his audience. He is trying to convince the audience that even libertarian voters in non-competitive states like California should nonetheless vote for Trump because otherwise Trump might “lose the popular vote” again and therefore be viewed as illegitimate. WHY SHOULD WE FUCKING CARE if he is “viewed” as illegitimate or not? This guy was not prepared for this debate. He thought he was addressing a bunch of Republicans, not libertarians.

    1. Well, the “get rid of the electoral college” thing is an issue. Call me a libertarian or not—but I think it serves its purpose of protecting against the tyranny of the majority in the system we have.

      I’m so tired of arguing against abolishing the popular vote, that I almost get the “popular vote matters” argument—even though every sensible person knows it didn’t in 2016, and shouldn’t in 2020.

      1. *abolishing the electoral college, my apologies.

      2. Why should libertarians support the Electoral College? To me it seems to be an anachronistic remnant of a previous era. It was supposed to be the Founders’ idea of implementing an old-school British House of Lords here in America. It has long since ended in that purpose.

        1. Yes because libertainism bus all about our democracy. Fuck you reveal your lack of true libertainism more and more every post.

          1. So why again should libertarians support the Electoral College?
            Because it’s in the Constitution? That is not a good enough reason. We’re not Constitution-worshipping Republicans after all.

            1. Because, it insures that all parts of America have an equal say in who is elected our chief executive. It removes the tyranny of the majority by replacing it with 50 separate votes. It isn’t perfect but it is far better than the fucking alternative.

              1. No, it privileges property over people when it comes to deciding who is the president.

                Here is an alternative idea. Keep the Electoral College if you must, but expand the size of the House to increase in size after every Census like it did up to the 1920’s. So if that were the case today, the House would be at about 600 members. Furthermore, change the Senate so that every state has 3 Senators, with each state having an election every two years for a senator. That would be a more representative way to choose a president.

                1. Yes, and adopt the Nebraska model for awarding to electorates. I never said we can’t reform it, just that it was preferable to a nationwide popular vote. In reality we have 50 popular votes but because most states award on a first past the finish line gets all electoral votes you end up with states like Oregon and Washington and Illinois and Minnesota. Yes, I have argued multiple times on here to increase the size of the HoR to reflect population growth since 1920. And for every state to adopt the Nebraska model for awarding electoral votes.

                  1. I would support you in that. It would be a great improvement.

        2. I think the “libertarian” argument for the electoral college is, well . . . exactly the one that I made above.

          Without it, you’ve got an outsized influence of the populous in the most populated areas. The interests of “city folks” prevail over everyone else.

          As libertarians, we should recognize that might does not equal right. Majority rule doesn’t protect rights—it tramples rights.

      3. A lot of people don’t get the electoral college system, and I don’t just mean the actual electors that are the ones who cast the votes. I mean the whole concept of winning states and assigning electoral votes according to congressional representation.

        The reason we do this is easy to explain. We are a federation, one in which the state is the primary level of government. As such, we have no national election for president… we have 50 state elections. If all the states had equal population, we could easily just say the one with the most states wins the election, but that’s not the case. So, we weight it according to population, with a bonus 2 EVs added on to keep the smaller states relevant.

        The national popular vote is a made up statistic, like the total number of runs a given team scored over the course of a seven-game World Series. You can argue all you want that team A scored more runs total during those seven games, but that’s not how it works. It’s the number of games won, and winning five games by one run each and losing the other four games by 10 runs each is still a win. That’s as it should be, because we do not have a national government (at least on paper).

        If the left wants to get states to do proportional awarding of electoral votes according to the national popular vote, by all means, do so. As long as you keep it in the blue states, I think it’s a fabulous idea.

        1. Arrgh… should have been four and three on the games won. I was somehow crossing the seven game World Series with the SCOTUS!

    2. And the full stupidity of Jeff comes out.

      Can you just fucking admit you’re a liberal who heard it was cool to be anti conformist so started calling yourself a libertarian.

      You fully accept government paternalism. You believe in the tyranny of mobs. You’re not a fucking libertarian.

      1. Why should libertarians care if Trump is viewed as “legitimately” elected or not? Unless of course you think libertarians ought to owe some special duty to Team Red or something. But oh no you would never think that would you.

        Maybe you should actually listen to the debate and judge for yourself the quality of Mr. Menton’s defense of Trump.

        1. Can’t be any worse than your defense of Biden. Basically it 8s just rehashed right wing conspiracy from the Clinton era and Trump says mean things about illegal immigrants. Get a life.

          1. What exactly is my “defense of Biden”? That he isn’t a garbage human being? Okay fine I admit, that part is true. It’s still not enough to cause me to vote for him though.

            I’m not voting for Trump, sorry dude.

            1. I didn’t say you had too. I am pointing out for someone who isn’t voting for Biden you spend an awful lot of energy trying to defend him, despite all the plethora of Libertarian arguments that he is indefinsible. And as for him not being a bike human being, the 1994 federal crime bill, his statements about blacks who may vote for Trump, his creepy touchy feely routine with underage girls, his credible accusation of attempting to rape and than retaliating against a subordinate, his support of regime change in Iraq, Syria and Libya etc kind of fucking argue he is a vile, evil human being. He just pays someone to tweet nice things.

            2. Also his praising of segregationist Democrats, including members of the KKK. His views on the war on drugs. His views on personal liberties such as freedom of speech and self defense. Yeah, Biden is just as vile as Trump. He just, the few times he is coherent, talks a little nicer than Trump. Unless he doesn’t realize the microphone is on, that is. In fact, I would argue his two faced attitude makes him even more vile.

              1. My “defense of Biden” consists entirely of arguing against insane ideas that he is some sort of Marxist Communist, when he clearly isn’t. You know what? It is possible to both believe that a person is not a Marxist, AND that he is nonetheless not worthy of one’s support. I know, right? How weird!

                1. Since no one really called him a Marxist, just implied he is beholden to the progressives in his party and has rarely ever shown any real principles as a politician, your argument that you are just staying he isn’t a Marxist, when I and most posters never stated he was, is a straw man. No, he isn’t a Marxist. He is a wishy washy, spineless politician, who very well maybe demented, who very likely, if he wins, will have the most progressive Congress in history. Hoping he doesn’t bend over and give them everything they want is like me hoping to pay off my ranch by winning the lottery.

                  1. Well, then isn’t Trump beholden to the racists and bigots in his party?

                    1. Let’s assume this is true.

                      Is it as concerning? I live in Corporate America. Even during a Trump presidency, we are mind-boggingly woke.

                      If the government aligns with the far left—which already has outsized influence—fuck. I’m out. I’m ready for the Civil War.

                    2. Give examples. That is just an ad hominem aimed at the conservatives. It is pure partisan talking points. You state you are defending Biden against right wing lies and then trot out left wing scaremongering lines. Really? Hypocrisy much?

                    3. No, because there’s like four of them.

                  2. soldiermedic76

                    I will make this short. You convinced me : Trump gets my vote . Don’t need to convince my wife . She hates Biden.

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  23. Going with Jorgensen. She’s a weak candidate with some oddball ideas, but at least she’s a libertarian. I’ll be surprised if she gets >1%.

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  25. Voting in America is a complete waste of time.

    I hope to vote with my feet and leave this shithole country…but it is an expensive proposition.

    1. As an expat currently in eurooe I can assure you it’s either the same or worse elsewhere.

      1. Oh, I have no illusions of anywhere else being a paradise. But at least I won’t be in a country spending a trillion a year on surveillance and military while I can’t even obtain needed medical care. I just have grown to hate this country and the notion that because my mother happened to be on this piece of dirt when she went into labor with me means that I owe a bunch of sociopathic assholes my lifelong loyalty is nothing short of preposterous. Especially when they all hate me to a man/woman.

        1. If every single person in this country that knows you, hates you, then maybe you’re the problem.

        2. “…while I can’t even obtain needed medical care…”

          I’m betting you really mean “free” medical care, slaver.

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  27. In the past when it never really mattered who was president I always threw away my vote, one of the 1.8%, on the LP candidate. But one night I got thrown out of a party in Chicago’s hip Lakeview neighborhood with fellow gay guys for admitting it. The mob cornering me accused me of handing the election to Bush, second term. The more all this seemed to matter to the anti-liberal left, the more it mattered to me. Now I only vote GOP for president, governor, mayor. The rest anything but Democrat.

  28. Those who vote are merely giving legitimacy to mob rule. It is acquiescing to those who want to control your life through violence or the treat of violence. It is hidden in a thin veil of majority (really plurality) rule. So, to paraphrase a great libertarian- ‘Don’t vote. It just encourages the bastards.’

    1. Really bad timing for this comment
      Tone deaf

  29. Unless you’ve got PTSD around hair sniffing.Hindi-Shayari

  30. Weak, weak, weak arguments. No one should be voting for Trump or Biden. I will be voting Jorgensen without any hesitation.

  31. “Arguing that libertarians should vote for Joe Biden was Somin…”

    Color me unsurprised.

  32. Joe Biden himself asked his followers on Twitter not to base their hopes on the polls, which have proved misleading in the past.
    https://worldabcnews.com/us-election-polls-and-latest-odds-who-will-win-the-us-president-election-world-news/

    1. I’m impressed that Biden remembered what a poll was…

  33. At least now we can stop pretending that Somin isn’t a Democrat parading as a libertarian. Get fucked, I’m surprised Biden didn’t lose even more support from this debate.

    1. If I was dehydrated and Somin told me I needed to drink water, I’d suddenly start questioning whether that was wise.

    2. Yeah, I wish I could say his supporting Biden was a surprise, though.

  34. Who are you kidding.

    You Conservatives (no one sane and honest is buying this Libertarian schtick) will vote for Demented and Deluded Donald.

    If you were Libertarians, you would have supported the small government paradise of CHOP in Seattle.

    That, and you are whining about Cuomo’s initial light touch, or as you call it “blasé attitude”, when it came to his coronavirus response.

    1. “…If you were Libertarians, you would have supported the small government paradise of CHOP in Seattle…”

      Yeah, mob rule with murders; very libertarian.

    2. I have never complained about Cuomo having too light a touch. I’d never even heard that this was a “thing.” I favor pretty much doing nothing, on a governmental level, and letting the virus take its course. There is no such thing as too light a touch… there is only “just right” and “not a light enough touch.”

      “CHOP” was not small government paradise. It’s mob rule, and there’s a big difference. Massive, huge difference.

  35. Small minds vote for other people. Average minds are stampeded by something they saw on teevee. Great minds vote against the initiation of force and let the looters fall where they may.
    Their loss is always our gain, especially if our spoiler votes cover the gap between looters and losers in another 13 States.

  36. It will be civil war either way the election turns out.

    Trump gets reelected….Lefties kick Civil War 2.0 into high gear with more violence.

    Democrats try to steal election… this constitutional democratic republic suspended, Lefty property seized and them give just compensation minus their share of the national debt, and Lefties deported to Socialist nations they love?

    1. Too bad I can’t bet against all that. Every election one gang of looters says the other gang will ban breathing (or make it mandatory), eat babies, shoot up the town, bla bla bla… Then after the votes are counted the one gang hoots and honks and the other gets petulant and cries. Libertarians meanwhile parlay them millions and millions of spoiler votes into repeal of prohibition laws and parasitical taxes…

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  38. There are only two fundamental forms of govt., self-government, or collective, coercive govt. If I choose to not self-govern, forfeit my sovereignty, and submit to another person, forming a ruler/ruled, master/subject, political system, then I still may withdraw my consent for that system. My choice to not irreversible. I retain my right to life, liberty, property, happiness, even when I waive them. This is what it means by rights being inalienable. Our individuality as sentients never changes. We are each one person, with one unique mind, one unique conscience, one life. We can deny it, reject it, ignore it, live as if it weren’t true, but the reality of it doesn’t change. We can live embracing the full reality of our sovereignty, or only partly. The more we live as real as possible, as knowledgable as possible, the better our chances for life, liberty, property, happiness.Therefore, I do not recognize anyone’s authority over me, nor do I claim authority over others. My consent must be voluntary to be morally obtained.

    I notice this is not the common practice. I see most living under duress, willfully submitting to threats of violence, accepting fraud, and ignoring it or excusing it. They call it “law & order”. They justify it as the only safe system. And they won’t allow others to choose a voluntary, non-violent order. They don’t even acknowledge the possibility. They call self-governing “chaos”. And they believe this imagined “chaos” of non-violent living somehow threatens everyone.

    I believe the opposite. I believe their laws, based on the initiation of violence, threats thereof, to be chaotic, inhuman, self-destructive, and anti-social. I point to the present state of a world where mutual assured destruction (mass suicide/murder) is considered necessary. I submit this is a mass delusion bordering on insanity. And I want no part of it. I resist being involuntarily governed. To accept it is to self-enslave, mentally and physically.

    I hereby declare my right to live freely, free from violence others impose on themselves and me.

  39. I know, right?
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  40. This Libertarian is not voting for Biden. The Democratic party, with its ever increasing shift to the left has very little to do with freedom. I don’t like the Trump persona, but I’m not going to help elect a party that will strive to take as much money from me as they can because they know how to pass policies that make stealing legal. Yes, Trump has some very unlibertarian policies and stances when it comes to immigration and free trade, but when you look at the entire picture, we stand to lose more with the Dems. Hey, at least he didn’t get us into any wars, yet. If Biden wins the election, the Dems will take the Senate and the House, too. Think of all the crap that will get passed. The brainwashing will continue, and with boomers dying off, you are looking at years and years of dystopia. Libertarians should try to win local races and build up instead of trying to run for President. Once we create ideal, free societies, more people will get on board.

  41. I know, right?
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  42. I voted for Jorgenson in the primary, but there’s no chance I’ll vote for her as long as she supports #BlackLivesMatter, a front for the authoritarian socialist revolutionaries, totalitarian cultural Marxists, and identitarian left.

  43. Trump is a full surrender of the American Experiment in growing liberty and prosperity to statist squabbling for slices of a zero sum pie.

    Libertarians are presented with their eternal problem, being too few to “…take over and leave everyone alone.” Unlike the past, though, when the two big parties differed, while too little from our perspective, on ideology and rhetoric; now they differ only in tone and comportment. Libertarians and liberty benefited from those real, if not big enough, differences in myriad ways; and with Trump gone they would return, as a bit of grit slowing and wearing down the leviathan’s statist gears. Where as if Trump / Trumpism stays, his full surrender of America to statism continues. His nastiness and ignorance camouflage hiding both his surrender and the leviathan’s acceleration.

    “Why do Democrats hate President Trump so much when philosophically, he is one of them?”

    https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/why-do-democrats-hate-donald-trump-so-much/

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  46. Libertarians of course could vote for their party’s candidate Jorgenson, the most in line with Libertarian principles. They could vote for Trump and at least get judicial nominees that are far more likely to rule on the constitution as well as tax and regulation cuts.

    Biden no way. Higher taxes, more regulation, expansion of Obamacare, sell out to big business, foreign entities.

  47. It would be more important for Libertarians to get more Libertarian minded people in the house and Senate. Until we get a Libertarian with their own celebrity and charisma to move the masses to vote they will not be a factor in the Presidential campaign. I voted for Johnson and for Harry Browne and fact is it just doesn’t matter.

    1. Thank you. House and Senate yes, running for President, no. As I’ve stated previously on this thread, I think that Libertarians should actually start even lower–the snowball effect. I know that throwing a candidate into the ring gives Libertarians presence, but takes away votes from the lesser of evil candidates.

  48. You could put a tie on a Labrador retriever put an (L) next to his name and I would vote for him.

    It has been done in some towns that have dogs or other animals as mayor and it has worked out well.

    BARK FOR LIBERTY!

  49. If there were online comments in the 1970’s they would have said the same things as are said here. Sad, but true. Most libertarians are too passionate to grasp the purpose and nature of elections so they play at politics and talk about how smart they are…for over 40 years and counting. Look at ’em go!

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