Will Electric Cars Disappoint Environmentalists?

Mark Mills and Rosario Fortugno debate the future of electric vehicles.

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Will Electric Cars Disappoint Environmentalists?

The Manhattan Institute's Mark Mills and InOrbis CEO Rosario Fortugno debate the resolution, "Between now and 2035, electric vehicles in the consumer market will disappoint environmentalists by remaining a product bought mainly by the well-heeled minority."

Taking the affirmative is Mills, a Manhattan Institute senior fellow, a faculty fellow at Northwestern University's engineering school, and a partner in Montrose Lane, an energy-tech venture fund. He is author of the book The Cloud Revolution: How the Convergence of New Technologies Will Unleash the Next Economic Boom and a Roaring 2020s.

Taking the negative is Fortugno, the CEO of InOrbis, a company that works to develop technologies for electric vehicle fleet management, autonomous vehicles, and machine learning. He blogs at ApplyingAI.com on the topics of free markets, electric vehicle adoption, and the benefits of artificial intelligence.

Comments

[MarilynLake]

I work from home and make a decent $6k a week, which is incredible considering that I was jobless in a bad economy a year ago. I always thank God for honoring me with these guidelines, and now it’s my responsibility to demonstrate and share anticipatory compassion with

everyone. Similarly, I’ve just begun———> http://Www.Smartcash1.com

[InsaneTrollLogic]

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: yes, because they still allow the peons to be free and drive wherever, whenever. They'd rather we be happy and trapped within our 15 minute cities.

[GroundTruth]

Your longer answer is spot on. Anything that results in personal autonomy to the control crowd is a problem. Cars, cash money, and guns are at the top of their list.

[B G]

Long answer, should be yes but not until they've more or less entirely eliminated internal combustion engine vehicles.

Until that point is reached, they'll cling to their current denial surrounding all of the issues related to the production and disposal of those kinds of batteries at scale, and the issues with how much of the current electricity supply is generated using fossil fuels, and how little of the new capacity needed to support hundreds of millions of new electric vehicles can be met by their "chosen" renewables of "anything possible as long as it's wind or solar".

Better to not even prime them for the issues around what we're going to do with all the leftover gasoline coming from refineries which will still be needed to provide diesel for cargo ships (and probably still most trains) and jet fuel for air travel.

[Longtobefree]

No.
Because the point is not to "save" the environment, but to further enslave the citizens.

[Beezard]

With sustainability, not only do you get to milk our inherent admiration of nature in order to seize the means of production. You also get to micromanage individual choice. AND it has a built in, ready made excuse for socialism’s failure to deliver actual prosperity. (It’s not economic collapse, it’s degrowth!)

It’s the horniest commie wet dream, ever!

[Stuck in California]

Degrowth.

Weaseliest weasel word since “Rightsizing”.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

We need to delife the leftist green movement.

[Idaho-Bob]

If we were riding horses, they'd still bitch.

[Eeyore]

Horses smell bad.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

They pee on the road and leave their droppings everywhere. Ever been to Mackinac Island?

[Idaho-Bob]

Ever been to Mackinac Island?

Yes. Married a Yooper.

[Beezard]

[B G]

When gas-powered cars were introduced in NYC, they were considered a godsend because with the growing population, cleanup and disposal of all the horse droppings on Manhattan streets was getting to be a serious problem.

Considering they can't currently clear the human-generated garbage out of Greenwich Village before it piles up on the sidewalks, imagine adding a half-million horses to the population of that island...

[mad.casual]

Well, a libertarian debate about disappointment, between two people who have a vested interest on the same side of the topic, is certainly disappointing.

[MatthewSlyfield]

The opponent mentions solar panels for home charging EVs? How the fuck do you charge an EV overnight with solar panels?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Panels in Australia, EV in the US.

Do I have to solve all the problems? Youse guys are lazy.

[MatthewSlyfield]

Yeah, the statement made in the debate was about home solar installations used to charge the car at home, not grid scale solar.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Never heard of vacation homes?

Lazy, always lazy.

[Jima]

Thanks for the belly laughs...

[JoeB]

Genius!

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

I actually had some EV fanboy try to tell me that nighttime solar is a thing. Those people are bizarre.

[TryLogic]

You build your 'UGE panel array 180 degrees longitude from your car and run a really long cord?

[Medulla Oblongata]

For years I've been pointing out that "environmentalists" are so often really just green on the outside and communist red on the inside.

They will not be happy until everyone (themselves excluded of course) lives in a cave and eats bugs. Everyone who is left--after billions are civilly and peacefully removed from the population.

Now Greta is protesting against wind farms - spiked (spiked-online.com)

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/17/why-is-greta-protesting-against-a-wind-farm/

[Medulla Oblongata]

“I HOPE THE DEPOPULATION WILL OCCUR IN A CIVIL AND PEACEFUL WAY”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbo6uvJBtZg&ab_channel=WeLoveEarth

“I HOPE THE DEPOPULATION WILL OCCUR IN A CIVIL AND PEACEFUL WAY” – WEF MASTERMIND AND CLUB OF ROME FOUNDER, IN RESURFACED 2012 INTERVIEW

Dennis Meadows…www.weforum.org/people/dennis-meadows

Among his many honors and awards have been:

The Japan Prize
In 2009 he received the Japan Prize for his “contributions in the area of “Transformation towards a sustainable society in harmony with nature.

Earth Hall of Fame
In 2008 he was inducted as a laureate into the Earth Hall of Fame in Kyoto, Japan for his contributions to the preservation of the environment with pioneering academic research into sustainable resource use.

German Culture Prize
In 2019 he received the award for nature of the Foundation for Cultural Promotion in Munich, Germany

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

It is occurring in a peaceful way.

[GroundTruth]

Starvation is generally peaceful in its final stages. After all, if you have no energy to work, you won't be able to fight or protest either.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Environmental Greta vs Green Greta?

The Greens think they are pro-environment, but they ignore all the environmental cost of their plan. A true environmentalist would acknowledge the issues with green tech.

[See.More]

For years I’ve been pointing out that “environmentalists” are so often really just green on the outside and communist red on the inside.

I call 'em watermelons.

[Medulla Oblongata]

So do I. Somehow I left that out.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

They’re watermelons. That’s what we should call them.

[B G]

It was probably inevitable that the more Greta got exposed to the world and the public, she'd also get exposed to versions of propaganda different from the one her parents raised her on, and maybe even encounter some real nuanced environmental science.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

They already are.

Liberal friend went on a rant. He was looking for a used hybrid but was smart enough to look into the cost of battery replacement. Very few nice words were said.

Low income people often rely on the used car market. They will be the worst hit. But it might just be another cog in the process of putting personal vehicle ownership in the history books.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

The watermelons keep insisting that battery costs will drop, yet they’ve steadily increased.

[LIBertrans]

WILL they? Try driving in the rain yesterday, then look at Tesla's warranty today. Arthur Hailey's novel "Overload" spells out verbatim the anti-energy mentality repelled by RBuckyFiller energy slaves. They seek to ban ALL electric power. "Alternative," "renewable" and other such equivocations simply mean NO as in none. The anarco-fascist mantra is updated: "Hay energía? Soy contra!"

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Meth: not even once.

[MWAocdoc]

This is silly! Electric vehicles will be very useful for some activities and not very useful for others. Environmental activists will be very disappointed that it will prove impossible to force everyone into electric vehicles and completely eliminate internal combustion engines and mobile source fossil fuel exhaust. Like every other technical innovation in history electric vehicles, ICE vehicles and hybrid vehicles will evolve to meet demand and adjust to find their market niches as technology and costs mature the way they must.

[TJJ2000]

Not if the gov-guns have any persuasion in the matter.
Oh wait; That's exactly what's controlling that market right now.

[GroundTruth]

I suspect that if you took a look at support for EVs by zip codes sorted by population density, there would be a pretty high correlation. If you're in most of "flyover country", and EV is a complete non-starter (literally). Heck, even in rural areas within smell of a coast, getting from here to there can take a couple of hours at high speed... not something you want to try in your Bolt.

[B G]

The problem that rural areas within smell of a coast find themselves in is that that they're generally governed by so-called "leaders" elected by urban residents of that coast, and not many of the major coastal cities have any significant concentration of voters who also engage in some version of critical thinking from time to time, and barely more whose blind allegiance is to a party unaffiliated with the wind/solar/ev uber alles dogma.

[Religion and Politics, my life]

But with the 3 attacks on usefulness by Biden your statement is meaningless.
He is subsidizing production
He is subsidizing purchase
He is attacking all alternatives.
Where the hell does 'useful' enter into it!! He is teling you what you must think of as useful

[Edmund Burke's Hastings spy]

But where is this market of yours when
Biden is interfering in the production ,the buying ,the very existence of competitors.You are just talking from rote talking points that
do not apply any more

[Religion and Politics, my life]

The fact that 78 million people did not buy my current car model means nothing so why should I care if the EV psycho approves my Lamberghini ? You frame the question so that a sane answer can't be given. Will restrictions on fossil fuesl disappoint the dying starving ill-educated African children who might thrive if we allowed their measly 4% of our energy usage to increase? You should be ashamed of your hubris in asking the question.

[Religion and Politics, my life]

The question is misphrased and misleading. Since Biden is subsidizing the production and the purchase while punishing the production of non-EV’s, you have no way of knowing what anyone really thinks !!

2 Days ago.. “Without federal, state subsidies and mandates, EVs would cost $50,000 more, a new study finds”:

name anything in life you like or support or prefer and let me make it so you pay the real cost , which is $50 000 more than you paid….okay, I win.

[Edmund Burke's Hastings spy]

Here is what puzzles me.You speak of disappointment WITHOUT setting the stage.
Biden has subsidized production of EVs
Biden has subsidized Purchase of EVs
Biden has punished non--EV producers
Biden is currently working to punish non-EV buyers

Disappointment won't really be visible until maybe a trillion dollars has subverted the entire market