Muddling Through the Mar-a-Lago Mess

Plus: The editors reaffirm free speech absolutism in the wake of the recent attack on Salman Rushdie.

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Muddling Through the Mar-a-Lago Mess

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and Nick Gillespie huddle on last week's FBI raid of former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate.

2:01: The FBI raid of Trump's home

26:18: Weekly Listener Question:

The U.S. federal government, since the beginning of the COVID pandemic, has monopsonized COVID vaccines and therapies. Yet, I haven't heard any complaints from Reason-ers about this expansion of government into health care long after I think all of us would agree that the "emergency" should be over. And the government's performance has actually kind of sort of been OK in the last 18 months. What gives? There are now those who are using this experience as an argument that we should make ALL of health care single-payer. How would you respond to Dr. Topol and others like him who say, "This proves single-payer works, we should adopt it for everything"? And then, more broadly, while I believe our health care economic system is broken, I don't see a viable political path toward implementing more market-based reforms to introduce competition, incentivize innovation, and bring down prices. Would it make sense for (small-"L") libertarians to basically give up on health care and "make a deal with the devil," compromising on single-payer health care in exchange for liberalization of other areas of the economy that otherwise wouldn't see liberalization?

35:13: The attack on Salman Rushdie and free speech

Mentioned in this podcast:

"Donald Trump's Handling of Classified Material Looks Worse Than Hillary Clinton's," by Jacob Sullum

"Free to Offend," by Robert Poole

"The Truth Hurts," by Jonathan Rauch

"Why We're Having an Everybody Draw Mohammed Contest on Thursday May 20," by Nick Gillespie

"Salman Rushdie and the Cult of Offense," by Graeme Wood

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsor:

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Audio production by Ian Keyser

Assistant production by Hunt Beaty

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Nick Gillespie

• The 2-Hour Cocktail Party, by Nick Gray

Peter Suderman

• Renaissance by Beyonce

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Chantal Tseng’s Literary Cocktails: Project Hail Mary

Matt Welch

• Hey Kids Comics!

---

Comments

[JasonAZ]

Anybody got a transcript?

[juliajohn]

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[R Mac]

That’s not a transcript!

[JesseAz]

Just as useful as one would be.

[Entelechy]

As part of Trump's plea bargain, Mar A Lago should be given back to the Post family, provided they covenant to never again let him near the place.

[Mother's Lament]

Why?

And why would Trump need a plea bargain?

[JesseAz]

Didn't you hear? Walls are closing in.

[works45]

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[Nardz]

Leftists are literally cancer.

[Entelechy]

Because he's crooked as Hunter Biden and guiltier than Hillary Clinton

[Sevo]

Simply:
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled asshole

[Entelechy]

The Tourettes syndrome is strong in this one.

[Sevo]

The
STUPID SHIT is strong in the case of this asshole.

[Sevo]

As part of Trump's plea bargain, Mar A Lago should be given back to the Post family, provided they covenant to never again let him near the place.

Gonna charge him with being Donald Trump?
Stuff your TDS up your ass, shit pile.

[NOYB2]

Do you get paid for this drivel? Or are you actually this stupid?

[Overt]

"And the government's performance has actually kind of sort of been OK in the last 18 months."

Who are these question writers? Everything about this question's premise was wrong.

[mad.casual]

Well, mixed into the 'kindasorta', Federal Policy hasn't directly or indirectly killed 18,000 people in the last 18 mos. but that's mostly due to the Dobbs decision.

[JesseAz]

Rumor is Mike is the weekly question writer.

[I, Woodchipper]

yeah WTF is this questioner even smoking?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Man, that's what got my attention too; no need to read the rest of the alleged listener question.

[Overt]

I mean who are they kidding? They are implying that ever since Biden got in charge, the CDC has "kind of sort of been ok". Based on what evidence?

In the past 18 months, the CDC has doubled down on recommending the muzzling of kids. And in that time they have done absolutely nothing to further actual, best of class double blind tests. They have provided fodder to the vaccination mandates, and requiring to use masks on national transportation.

The notion that the CDC has been anything but a colossal fuckup during both administrations is just wishful thinking.

This is quite obviously a concern troll. "I'm totally a libertarian guys, but since the democrats have been kinda-sorta-ok, shouldn't we just compromise and give in to their every whim?"

That such a person ends up being the "Question of the Week" further cements my impression that this podcast is nothing more than the navel gazing of of blue-cloistered left-leaning libertarians.

[JesseAz]

That such a person ends up being the "Question of the Week" further cements my impression that this podcast is nothing more than the navel gazing of of blue-cloistered left-leaning libertarians.

Repeated for accuracy.

[Mother's Lament]

"Who are these question writers?"

It lists them at the top:
MATT WELCH, KATHERINE MANGU-WARD, NICK GILLESPIE, AND PETER SUDERMAN

Imagine if the Reasonistas had to take real questions from actual libertarians like some of the commentariat... Awk-ward.

[I, Woodchipper]

How would you respond to Dr. Topol and others like him who say, "This proves single-payer works, we should adopt it for everything"?

LoL. fuck off slaver

[mad.casual]

+1

[JasonAZ]

Remind me again slavers, where does the US Constitution give you authority to take over healthcare?

Seriously Reason Editors, this isn't rocket science.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

But it does appeal to left-pseudo-libratarians.

[DesigNate]

r/libertarian has entered the chat.

[Overt]

Set aside the Constitution. Nationalizing a fucking fifth of our economy isn't in anything close to libertarian. Forcing people to pay for others' consumptive choices isn't libertarian. Rendering the decisions of millions of consumers, small business operators, and companies to government bureaucrats isn't libertarian.

There is no liberty in any of this.

[BYODB]

It's literally saying "Slavery is freedom" given the simple observation that if healthcare is a right you have a right to the labor of another against that person's will.

[Roberta]

That's true, but it's popular. If there were 10 people in the world and just one of them was a doctor, I guarantee you 8 of the other 9 would force that doctor to treat those of them who couldn't pay hir enough to make it worth hir while. If just one of them was a cobbler, nobody would force the cobbler to provide shoes. Medicine is just different; it holds too powerful a sway on people's conscience to succumb to a desire for liberty.

[Nardz]

"hir"

I don't like this.
Stop it.
Just say "him/her or her/him".
We're trying to have a society here, people.

[Roberta]

No, there isn't. But the tide has been running so strongly against laissez faire in health care worldwide that I think we need to save our strength and not waste it trying to paddle against this one, when the prospects for achieving freedom worldwide in the other 80% look so much better.

People are just never going to give up on government guarantees of health care, shitty as their payoffs might be, because the idea that someone may not be able to afford treatment for the most serious conditions is unbearable to most. But people will give up on government guarantees of housing and transportation, for instance.

[mad.casual]

Re: Weekly Listener Question.

Once again, the overall picture is better and makes more sense if the 'Weekly Listener' is one of the Reason writers not included in the podcast or some intern at Cato rather than a larger libertarian (small-"L") audience to be suggesting that the best policy for Libertarians (big-"L" or small-"L") is to concede on *both* Emergency Powers *and* Single-payer healthcare.

Even if the 'Weekly Listener' is some sort of structured opposition lobbing softballs for the podcasters to swing at, is the aim to attract people who are neither smart enough, libertarian enough, or even generally aware enough to realize that appeasement is a perennially failing option?

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Look. Literally dozens of people listen to this podcast. Two or three do so on a weekly basis. They have serious questions for the world's preeminent libertarians. Why must you belittle His/Her, They/Them's efforts?
Alright. Admittedly the question, or questions, posed above don't actually make a whole lot of sense. But they do provide an opportunity for our libertarian betters to use big words and sound smart. I'm positive that if I actually listened to the podcast I'd be impressed with their wisdom (disclaimer: I'm not going to listen to the podcast).

[mad.casual]

Literally dozens of people listen to this podcast.

It's actually funny because Matt intros with "Your favorite weekly libertarian podcast brought to you by The Magazine of Free Minds and Free Markets" and I thought "Yeah, I guess Dave Smith's 'Part of The Problem' podcast is semi-daily and isn't brought to you by Reason Magazine."

Imagine getting an education and slogging away as a hip, libertarian writer going to work for a magazine for decades and then getting utterly demolished popularly and politically by two stand up comedians who didn't go to school. Totally makes sense why Pretty Boy, The Jacket, and The Hair wouldn't like them.

[R Mac]

Reason does a podcast? How is it?

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Nobody has ever actually listened to it. It's one of those mysteries we will never find an answer to.

[Brandybuck]

> Yet, I haven't heard any complaints from Reason-ers about this expansion of government into health care

Huh? Wat? Someone must be very new here.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

One would suspect they never read the comment section.

[JesseAz]

To be fair. Mike has most of the commentariat on mute.

[R Mac]

Except when he randomly logs out to read the comments.

[JasonAZ]

Damn. When you've lost Brandybuck...

[Mother's Lament]

IKR

[Briggs Cunningham]

You can tell the Marlargo raid has backfired badly for Democrats by how reason now refers to it as a "mess". If it hadn't backfired, reason would be talking about how the walls are closing in on Trump. Since it backfired, reason is all about it being a mess and pox on both houses baby. Whenever the Democrats do something indefensible, the reason lefties pronounce it just another example of how both sides are bad./

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Sullum told us Trump is worse than Hilary when it comes to classified documents like yesterday. Because ya know libertarians lie awake at night worrying about NATIONAL SECURITY. The narrative is already written and it turns out OrangeManBad. Why am I not surprised.

[Briggs Cunningham]

Sullum is all about admitting Hillary should have gone to prison now that it suits his purposes and there is no danger of it happening. He is principled like that.

[JasonAZ]

I don't recall Hilldog having the ability to declassify security documents. Also, there is a big difference between having paper documents at Marlargo (paper is offline) compared to an un-supported email server ON THE FUCKING INTERNET, where it was most likely hacked by either Russia or China.

As usual, Sullum has terminal TDS.

[Sevo]

We wish it were terminal.

[I, Woodchipper]

^ exactly this

[Marshal]

I don't see a viable political path toward implementing more market-based reforms to introduce competition, incentivize innovation, and bring down prices.

There are two steps we can take which would greatly improve the medical care payment process which would relieve pressure to move to single payer.

1. Require providers to charge everyone the same rate, and to publish those rates.
2. Eliminate employer based healthcare by distributing those policies (and the payments) from the employer to the covered persons (employees).

[Overt]

I'd eliminate employer-based healthcare (by shifting the tax preference from employers to individuals). And give everyone HSAs.

If you need assistance with your medical insurance (due to being some multiple of the poverty line), the government can deposit a subsidy directly into the HSA that you can use to pay for medical or insurance purposes.

Claims for pre-existing conditions need to be handled by the insurance company, after a 1 year grace period if you didn't have contiguous coverage.

Is it Libertarian? No. But it is a shit ton better than the existing hodge podge.

[R Mac]

Your last sentence saved you from a fiery damnation from me, so I’ll just go with:

“If you need assistance with your medical insurance (due to being some multiple of the poverty line), the government can deposit a subsidy directly into the HSA that you can use to pay for medical or insurance purposes.”

How about charity instead?

[Overt]

Sure, absolutely. That is obviously my preference, but if we are going to have publicly funded X, my default is going to be "cut a check to the consumer". I don't believe the government should fund school, but if we are, cutting a check to parents is preferable. Same with welfare and health insurance.

[Nardz]

Having insurance pay routine medical costs is what fucks everything up. It drives prices up because customers (patients) are disconnected from particular costs while beholden to a regular, recurring cost they pay regardless of usage. All pricing pressure takes place solely between providers (docs and insurance), with the patients (customers) almost entirely left out. Then there's just simple increase due to inserting a middleman.

[Overt]

Yes, I totally agree. That is why I advise HSAs.

The original HSAs were paired with High Deductible Insurance. Pretty much all of your routine healthcare was handled out of direct payments from the account. This encourages people to be miserly about their health care and only go for it if they really need the service, while also being extremely cost conscious.

[Nardz]

Or, and hear me out, just pay people their fucking money and they can spend it or save it as they see fit.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

^^^ This times 1000000

Some of us can understand the distinction between insurance for unusual and expensive events, and "insurance" for routine operating costs, whether we talk about houses, cars, or human bodies. And how pooled contributions can effectively handle one and not the other.

But I suppose those who demand free health care are mostly consistent, and also demand free housing and transportation.

[DesigNate]

You can at least give Tony credit for consistently being a totalitarian.

[JesseAz]

I respect Tony more than jeff, sarc, or Mike because Tony is at least honest with who he is.

[Roberta]

But I suppose those who demand free health care are mostly consistent, and also demand free housing and transportation.

Some do, but most don't. Medicine is different. It eventually trumps all other political and economic considerations, around the world.

[Nardz]

No.

[Roberta]

Having insurance pay routine medical costs is what fucks everything up.

True. And yet almost every country chooses to be fucked that way. Most of them don't choose to have everyone insured for any other type of routine cost (which would also be truly fucked), but medicine is different.

[Nardz]

It's almost like a bunch of totalitarian collectivists seized power all across the western world, created an imaginary economy to dictate our survival, and, led by the anglosphere, instituted totalitarian bullshit like wage caps that directed employment compensation to take other forms...

[Gaear Grimsrud]

The editors reaffirm free speech absolutism in the wake of the recent attack on Salman Rushdie.

After 5 years of explicitly supporting censorship by FB, Twitter and all of social media even when confronted with proof of federal government involvement, what exactly are they reaffirming? Their response to Obama going after reporters? Sorry Reason. You pissed away your credibility on this particular issue. Let's talk about food trucks.

[R Mac]

I’m sure the Barrington v Twitter lawsuit will be covered soon.

[JasonAZ]

+1

Of course, Reason's both sides take is that icky Republicans and conservatives want sexually inappropriate material removed from K-5 school libraries. Can you imagine? That's TOTALLY the same as Facebook censoring people at the behest of the Biden administration.

[JesseAz]

NEW: According to an FBI informant, the Michigan State Police allowed armed protesters into the Capitol in Lansing on April 30, 2020, at the specific request of the FBI, which wanted to "de-escalate" the situation.

https://mobile.twitter.com/kenbensinger/status/1559221869114302464

[JesseAz]

Plus: The editors reaffirm free speech absolutism in the wake of the recent attack on Salman Rushdie.

Does that include the J6 protests?

[Briggs Cunningham]

That is sedition Jesse. Free speech doesn't include sedition. Didn't you know that?

[JesseAz]

I have been shamed once again.

I also forget that incitement is not absolutist free speech when it involves Trump telling people to march peacefully.

[Briggs Cunningham]

A bunch of people wandering around inside the capitol building after being invited in by the cops is worse than Pearl Harbor. Worse than Pearl Harbor Jesse.

[HorseConch]

It was also worse than 9/11. It was so awful that we had to be reminded what a national hero Dick Cheney is.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

If remembering Dick Cheney is the price I have to pay to save democracy then goddammit I'll take the hit.

[JasonAZ]

The Capital building is SACRED!!! You cannot protest there! Well, progressives can protest there. They interrupt SCOTUS confirmations, abortion hearings, etc. But that's different, for ah, reasons!

And it was a DEADLY attack Jesse!!! The J6 traitors forced law enforcement to kill 2 protestors, and of course, all the police suicides after J6 are the result of insidious Trumpistas!!!

[JasonAZ]

2 unarmed protestors. Which makes it even worse!!!

Of course, our progressive Libertarian legal experts, White Mike and Lying Jeffy, tell us that trespassing is a capital offense. I kinda see the logic now. They were at the Capital... capital offense. 45D chess there Mike/Jeffy, well played.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Not to mention it was an attack on our beloved democratic institutions. OUR BELOVED DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS! Ya know like the FBI and the IRS and the Capital Police. Sullum explained all of this last year.

[I, Woodchipper]

There has been absolutely NOTHING about the government's involvement in "COVID vaccines and therapies" that would make any sane rational person think "wow government did a great job it should fully own ALL health care related matters"

Seriously, who the fuck with an IQ over 90 could possible think such a thing after watching how it went down?

[Briggs Cunningham]

They just shoved an effective, unsafe vaccine down the world's throats. I mean, how could anyone object to that?

[JesseAz]

And admitted they ignored the VAERS data in determining how safe it was.

[Briggs Cunningham]

There was money to be made. That is why they got their brain dead supporters to treat getting vaccinated as a religious rite; they need everyone to take it so that there isn't a control group to show how unsafe it is. They are going to end up killing tens of thousands or more people in the name of big pharma making billions. The left is anti corporation you know.

[JesseAz]

Fauci saved millions.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Like with AIDS.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Fauci saved millions of dollars for himself. FTFY

[Utkonos]

Anyone else remember the old days when Big Pharma was the bogeyman—not the BFF—of the Progressive Left? (Constant Gardener anyone?)

[Gaear Grimsrud]

So by your logic it's totally cool to kill grandma. How do you sleep at night?

[Utkonos]

In her old bed (it’s comfy too).

[mad.casual]

I admit that the product was absolute shit but it was delivered on time ("or even sooner!") and with absolutely impressive speed. They had the right man for that job. I didn't trust him with the vaccine and wouldn't trust him with any other part of my healthcare, but he said he'd deliver the vaccine at a record pace and, despite his boastfulness, didn't disappoint in that regard.

[I, Woodchipper]

"government relaxed the government barriers to market in a special case and voila something got to market sooner" is not necessarily a ringing endorsement of government involvement in that market.

[Brett Bellmore]

It's a ringing endorsement of the guy who actually realized that relaxing the government barriers to market was a good idea. Just that understanding alone probably made Trump the most Libertarian President since Reagan.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Old business saying. You can get it fast, you can get it cheap or you can get it good. But you can't get all three. One out of three ain't exactly marketing genius.

[JasonAZ]

https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/doj-opposes-release-of-trump-raid-affidavit-willing-to-unseal-other-docs/

I'm sure Reason Editors will be against the secrecy of the DOJ and the FBI here, right?

[Mother's Lament]

I think that the Reasonista are on the cusp of declaring the whole thing a "local story", and never ever mentioning it again.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

I gotta say I think Trump is playing this thing pretty brilliantly. The DOJ/FBI are scrambling to cover their asses, Trump is the clear victim of their political overreach and the Biden white house are distancing themselves from the whole debacle. Trump is even offering to help the DOJ "bring the temperature down" lest their be civil unrest due to their political prosecution. Classic Trump. Meanwhile DOJ is running the same unidentified whistleblower crap we saw in the impeachment bullshit. While a TDS infected fucking pissant magistrate makes the calls. This will ultimately end up in SCOTUS and the odds are in Trump's favor. Predictably, Reason editors have already made asses of themselves. They won't look any better six months from now.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Bringo

[JimMelloan]

Katherine: "He stupided his way to evil." Brilliant!

[Roberta]

Would it make sense for (small-"L") libertarians to basically give up on health care and "make a deal with the devil," compromising on single-payer health care in exchange for liberalization of other areas of the economy that otherwise wouldn't see liberalization?

Not actually a deal, but I've thought for some time as I looked around the world that this nut &mdash: socialized medicine — may be too hard to be worth trying to crack, and that we should save our strength for more plausibly winnable battles. It's not a compromise, because we're not bargaining over it, but it's a strategic decision.

[Roberta]

The idea is to make society so rich by other means that we can afford a very wasteful system of health care.

[Utkonos]

Heck, it’s only 1/5 of the economy. BTW….I wonder if that’s going to remain static? Shrink? Or (I know it’s nuts but I have t put out there) grow?

[The Last American Hero]

It’s the first step to controlling what you eat, how and when you exercise, who gets treated, and who you sleep with. Everything can be construed as connected to your health. Maybe you got mad on social media and need a ban for awhile to settle down. Or maybe you got a sniffle and need to be under house arrest.

[jdgalt1]

The U.S. federal government, since the beginning of the COVID pandemic, has monopsonized COVID vaccines and therapies. Yet, I haven't heard any complaints from Reason-ers about this expansion of government into health care long after I think all of us would agree that the "emergency" should be over. And the government's performance has actually kind of sort of been OK in the last 18 months. What gives? There are now those who are using this experience as an argument that we should make ALL of health care single-payer. How would you respond to Dr. Topol and others like him who say, "This proves single-payer works, we should adopt it for everything"?

On the contrary. The government's performance has been to impose lockdowns (proven more deadly by far than Covid), compulsory vaccination (proven both useless and poisonous), mask mandates (proven useless), and force nursing homes to accept infected patients they can't treat (thus deliberately killing thousands, a crime for which governors such as Cuomo still need to go on trial).

Meanwhile those who do get admitted to the medical system are subjected to forced useless and harmful treatments including remdesivir and ventilators, and everyone is denied access to the early treatments that we know do work -- HCQ and ivermectin.

The lesson everyone, but especially libertarians, should have long since learnt from the whole debacle is that adult individuals have a human right to make their own medical choices individually, and to consume any substance they want. It's imperative that laws and constitutions be changed to recognize these absolute rights.

[wsmarty]

There has been absolutely NOTHING about the government's involvement in COVID vaccines and therapies that would make any sane rational person think wow government did a great job it should fully own ALL health care related matters