Return of Summer Security Theater? Also, Abolish the FDA.

Plus: The editors select their most influential post-war libertarian thinkers.

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Return of Summer Security Theater? Also, Abolish the FDA.

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, Katherine Mangu-Ward returns alongside editors Peter Suderman, Nick Gillespie, and Matt Welch as they contemplate recent murmurs on the reinstatement of certain COVID-19 restrictions, as well as the general failures of the FDA.

1:25: Masks and COVID security theater

14:00: Abolish the FDA

28:00: Weekly Listener Question:

Bryan Caplan recently shared an old Salon article on Twitter, titled "Libertarians' scary new star: Meet Bryan Caplan, the right's next 'great' philosopher," worrying that he was going to become too influential. Being a Salon piece, it was pretty awful, but one part in particular stuck out to me. "For most of its post-1945 history, libertarianism has lacked thinkers of its own, and its intellectual deficit frequently has been filled by government-hating businessmen with third-rate minds like Peter Thiel, the fatuous crackpot who founded PayPal, and the appallingly dumb Leonard Read." As a libertarian who has done a fair amount of reading on the topics of liberty and capitalism, I was appalled at the ignorance, willful or not, of the writer, and it got me wondering: Who would the esteemed panel members cite as the most influential (or their favorite) post-war libertarian thinkers?

40:42: Lightning round highlights from this year's FreedomFest in Las Vegas.

Mentioned in this podcast:

"Abolish the FDA," by Katherine Mangu-Ward

"An Epidemic of Meddling," by Jacob Sullum

"Rethinking the Social Responsibility of Business," by Milton Friedman, John Mackey, and T.J. Rodgers

"Doctors Say Federal Bureaucracy Is Keeping Them From Adequately Treating Monkeypox," by Scott Shackford

"Why Do So Few American Women Use IUDs?" by Liz Wolfe

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

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Audio production by Ian Keyser

Assistant production by Hunt Beaty

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Peter Suderman

• The Old Man

Nick Gillespie

• The Kingdoms of Savannah: A Novel by George Dawes Green

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Last Night at the Lobster by Stewart O'Nan

Matt Welch

• "I Believe In A Thing Called Love" by the Darkness

---

Comments

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The title "I, Pencil" was beyond their brain capacity. Tells you all you need to know about Salon, wokery, and statists in general.

[Eeyore]

"I AM NOT A PENCIL!"

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[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

Can I use a pen on an exam if it identifies as a number 2 pencil?

[NoVaNick]

I am baffled why anyone with a shred of self respect would give a shit what Salon thinks. It is well known that they are a bunch of crusty old leftists

[Brandybuck]

Read (or tried to read) a recent article about "the 100 year plot by conservatives to take over America" and it was just awful. I'm no fan of conservatives, but the piece was essentially a litany of mindless talking points, and trying to link Taft, Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Trump all together into the same stew. About two microns away from an all out conspiracy (big bidness funding conservatives, etc).

I can handle thoughtful lefty articles, like a few that manage to make their way to the Atlantic. But nothing from Salon has been worth a shit for over a decade.

[Don't look at me!]

Masks worked so well before, let’s do it again!

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Who would the esteemed panel members cite as the most influential (or their favorite) post-war libertarian thinkers?

Joe Friday?

[BigT]

Milton Friedman or Ayn Rand.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

https://tenor.com/view/communiste-communist-hugs-heart-red-gif-14360509

[ElvisIsReal]

If only Reason had been as quick to call the masks theater as the commentary had been........

[Weigel's Cock Ring]

They're consistently hundreds (if not thousands) of days behind the reality curve compared to the commentariat,, because they willingly and happily swallow about 99% of the bullshit from the lefty government/media complex. They can't help rhemselves.

[I, Woodchipper]

There are so many reasons to abolish the FDA. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Eeyore]

Abolish the TSA and The Department of Homeland Insecurity.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Sounds good. Even better, let's work towards decentralizing air travel in general. Why can't air travel be more like car travel, in the sense that travel is largely governed by the timetable of the driver, and not the timetable of some large mass transit institution?

Instead of having only a few large airports in big cities, why not have lots and lots of small airports all over the place? They would not carry large numbers of people on huge jets but instead they would carry smaller numbers of people on relatively shorter trips. You would not need to fill up a plane with 200 people in order to make it worthwhile to travel, you'd only need a few dozen people to make it work.

[I, Woodchipper]

you know why there aren't more airports right? You know why air travel is a fucking nightmare right?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Not really, but let me guess: an imposed government monopoly?

[I, Woodchipper]

"not really" is all you had to say

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Well, do you have any constructive thoughts on the matter? Like about making air travel more decentralized?

[R Mac]

Poor Lying Jeffy doesn’t realize he’s the joke of Reason.

[sarcasmic]

There are already small airports all over the place. Look at a map.

[sarcasmic]

Google says "There are approximately 14,400 private-use (closed to the public) and 5,000 public-use (open to the public) airports, heliports, and seaplane bases [in the US]."

[Brandybuck]

Because of multiple passengers. If we all had our own private planes, sure. But look at buses. Conceptually the same as cars, yet they have... wait for it... schedules! So a fully decentralized air travel system isn't going to work well. First off most people are not pilots, and don't want the hassle of learning how to fly (yeah, I know it's supposedly easier than driving, yada, yada, yada). But all most air travel is for long distances, so you're still landing in the territory that buses cover. And buses have schedules.

We already have lots of small airports around. You just don't notice them because you're not using them. Where I grew up in rural California there were a dozen within a half hour of me. Not talking tiny unmarked cropduster strips either. And now in the center of Silicon Valley I'm still looking at six airports within a half hour, NOT talking about the big airports like SJC or SFO.

Shorter smaller flights with fewer passengers do happen. Problem is most smaller airports just don't have the kind of infrastructure to support general public access. Not because it's against the law, just because the general economics of air travel doesn't run that way. But medium airports do run those kinds of services. Places without any jetways at all. I've taken plenty of "puddle jumper" commercial flights in my life.

[JeremyR]

No one has even died of monkey pox. Can we not freak out over it?

And is it really asking too much for gay men to stop having sex while they have monkey pox lesions/outbreak?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Well, I don't know. Was it too much to ask you to wear a mask while COVID was raging around the world before we had vaccines?

[I, Woodchipper]

Well, I don't know. Was it too much to ask you to wear a mask while COVID was raging around the world before we had vaccines?

Why would I wear a mask since widespread mask-wearing does nothing to stop the spread of infection?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

That's not true, the studies show that the effect is highly variable, not that it does nothing.

[Mother's Lament]

No. Virtually every study showed they did nothing to stop Covid virons. I know that you know this. Why are you pretending otherwise?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No. Virtually every study showed that the effect of masks in stopping COVID, when in everyday common use, was highly variable and depended on a great many factors, such that *in the aggregate*, the effect was very small. You know this, you are just stirring up shit because you derive pleasure from calling me names.

[R Mac]

I derive pleasure in calling you names that accurately describe your traits, Lying Jeffy.

[MT-Man]

Jeff those studies didn't really show that masks worked if you read them through (the you is everyone in general not Jeff)- you do allude to the variables and that's really what may or may not have reduced or increased covid. Those studies that were recent were all pretty bad, heavy on assumptions a lot of the words could, should and can. There's really nothing concrete in any of them it's reading something they wanted to be true and then trying to build it backwards with no foundation.

[Zeb]

That's not how it works. They showed inconsistent results and mean nothing. There is no reason to believe widespread public masking does anything. And there is certainly no reason to think the benefits outweigh the harms.

[mpercy]

The argument would tend to be, if they're being at least somewhat honest "They did *almost* nothing, which is not the same as nothing. The did something, no matter how small, so if it saves even one life it will all be worth it. If you won't mask to save lives, you're just a murderer." Presenting a false dichotomy.

[R Mac]

What a stupid fucking comparison.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

And just to be clear, I don't mind asking people to make voluntary sacrifices for a greater good. That is what enlightened self-interest is all about. But whenever I and others asked people to make voluntary sacrifices for a greater good of, say, limiting the spread of COVID, we were instead entreated to all sorts of abuse about how wearing a mask was this horrible imposition, that it normalized rigid conformity to this social programming that we should resist, that it was their God-given right not to wear a mask and no one was going to tell them otherwise, etc., etc.

I mean, if you're going to ask people to make sacrifices for a greater good, you should also be prepared to listen when others make the same request of you.

So yes I am fine with asking those most at risk of contracting monkeypox that they ought to limit the behavior most likely to cause the spread of the disease for the sake of a greater good. But I am also willing to listen to their requests, should they make one of me, to do the same.

What I can't fathom is the position that I should feel entitled to tell them what to do, but that they don't have a corresponding entitlement to tell me what to do.

[BigT]

Guvs weren’t ASKING. And guvs were not transparently sharing data to support the ask.

Or did you forget?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The government was not merely asking, no. But many individuals were asking.

[Zeb]

You aren't really asking if you are going to get all pissy when someone declines. You are demanding. And with masks you are demanding that people do something almost completely symbolic which has real psychological and physical harm associated with it.

[mpercy]

If you feel like you're in an at-risk group, then by all means take whatever measures you feel are reasonable for yourself. You can politely ask me to help you protect yourself, and being a nice person, I'll probably happily support your request.

But don't *expect* or *demand* me to make any effort to help you though. And if you try to force me to do so, there is going to be backlash.

If your kid is deathly allergic to peanuts, I expect you to teach your kid to not eat peanuts, to carry an epipen in case he accidentally does so, and to politely ask me if the cookies I'm serving might possibly have peanuts in them. If you inform me before hand, I'll probably even make an extra effort to avoid creating an issue for your kid.

But if you say "No one who sends a kid to this school can be permitted to have any peanut products in their home because they could be uncaring assholes and let their kids eat peanut butter toast and wipe their hands on their jacket before coming to school and killing my kid." I'll probably say "Fuck you" and slick my kid's hair back with peanut oil and send them to school with a PB&J for lunch.

[MT-Man]

Why can't we then ask people who are out of shape and not exercising to not be allowed to enter public buildings during covid/xyz pandemic. They should only be able to interact if they are making a sacrifice to be in better health for the good of the populace right?

[mpercy]

"What I can't fathom is the position that I should feel entitled to tell them what to do, but that they don't have a corresponding entitlement to tell me what to do."

I'm not telling them what they *must* do. I'm telling them the actions they take that increase their risk. If they chose to ignore it, and get it, that's on them.

Same for COVID.

If you're afraid of a disease with a 99.5% survival rate (unless you're over 80 years old and obese...in which case it's about 92% survival rate) that you cannot leave your house without forcing others to submit themselves to your fear, then I suggest you not leave your house. Or, at least, when you encounter someone who is not masked and refuses to mask despite your polite (and hence singular) request, that *you* remove yourself from them rather than have a meltdown and/or call the government.

[mpercy]

Bud: ‘You can’t come in here!’
Lou: ‘Why not?’
Bud: ‘Well because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But I’m not sick.’
Bud: ‘It doesn’t matter.’
Lou: ‘Well, why does that guy get to go in?’
Bud: ‘Because he’s vaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But he’s sick!’
Bud: ‘It’s alright. Everyone in here is vaccinated.’
Lou: ‘Wait a minute. Are you saying everyone in there is vaccinated?’
Bud: ‘Yes.’
Lou: ‘So then why can’t I go in there if everyone is vaccinated?’
Bud: ‘Because you’ll make them sick.’
Lou: ‘How will I make them sick if I’m NOT sick and they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘But they can still get sick.’
Lou: ‘So what the heck does the vaccine do?’
Bud: ‘It vaccinates.’
Lou: ‘So vaccinated people can’t spread covid?’
Bud: ‘Oh no. They can spread covid just as easily as an unvaccinated person.’
Lou: ‘I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore. Look. I’m not sick.
Bud: ‘Ok.’
Lou: ‘And the guy you let in IS sick.’
Bud: ‘That’s right.’
Lou: ‘And everybody in there can still get sick even though they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Certainly.’
Lou: ‘So why can’t I go in again?’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘I’m not asking who’s vaccinated or not!’
Bud: ‘I’m just telling you how it is.’
Lou: ‘Nevermind. I’ll just put on my mask.’
Bud: ‘That’s fine.’
Lou: ‘Now I can go in?’
Bud: ‘Absolutely not?’
Lou: ‘But I have a mask!’
Bud: ‘Doesn’t matter.’
Lou: ‘I was able to come in here yesterday with a mask.’
Bud: ‘I know.’
Lou: So why can’t I come in here today with a mask? ….If you say
‘because I’m unvaccinated’ again, I’ll break your arm.’
Bud: ‘Take it easy buddy.’
Lou: ‘So the mask is no good anymore.’
Bud: ‘No, it’s still good.’
Lou: ‘But I can’t come in?’
Bud: ‘Correct.’
Lou: ‘Why not?’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But the mask prevents the germs from getting out.’
Bud: ‘Yes, but people can still catch your germs.’
Lou: ‘But they’re all vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Yes, but they can still get sick.’
Lou: ‘But I’m not sick!!’
Bud: ‘You can still get them sick.’
Lou: ‘So then masks don’t work!’
Bud: ‘Masks work quite well.’
Lou: ‘So how in the heck can I get vaccinated people sick if I’m not
sick and masks work?’
Bud: ‘Third base.’

[swillfredo pareto]

Hu's on First.

[Zeb]

wearing a mask was this horrible imposition, that it normalized rigid conformity to this social programming that we should resist

Yes. That was the point of masks all along. You can find plenty of public health people pretty much saying so.

[Mother's Lament]

"Being a Salon piece, it was pretty awful"

Sqrlsy hardest hit. He treats Salon like Wikipedia.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

And if we're going to talk about influential post-war libertarian thinkers, I would hope that Robert Nozick would be in the mix for consideration.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nozick-political/

It is long but it is worth reading.

[R Mac]

Is he a child groomer?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Eater of shit.

[Livemike]

Just to remind everyone but the increased FDA powers in the wake of Thalidomide were completely unrelated to Thalidomide. Nobody said that Thalidomide was ineffective, so why would they need to change the law to make proving effectiveness neccessary.

[mpercy]

What about Charles Murray? "What it means to be a libertarian" was a nice primer.

[Brandybuck]

Bryan Caplan is amazing, but he scares people because he's a huge nerd who managed to get marry and breed. Or maybe some other reason. He's still amazing. Asks the pointed questions, questions the established orthodoxy, and not at all a slack-jawed Mises Caucus type. (Helped pen a pro-immigration book with Zach Weinersmith).

But as for my favorite post-war influential libertarian? I still gotta go with the "appallingly dumb Leonard Read". Not a philosopher per se, but the best communicator libertarians have had for quite a long time.

[JimMelloan]

I would suggest Donald Boudreaux and John Tamny as two of today's most important libertarian thinkers. It would be great to have Tamny in a Soho debate on either whether inflation is really happening (he says it isn't) or the idea that the Fed has great power in the economy (he maintains that that idea is a ridiculous fiction).

[Flaco]

Diedre McCloskey's great...but let's not spend so much of the discussion playing up her status as a woman. There's an asterisk there.

[freedomwriter]

We wouldn't need any government agencies like the EPA or FDA if humans were not such pieces of shit and did the right thing instead of the wrong.