MENU

Reason.com

Free Minds & Free Markets

Pence Walks Out on Colts Game Because Posturing and Performance Are What Politics Is

Politics regularly reveals itself as all show

TwitterTwitterVice President Mike Pence made a big deal of walking out on today's Indianapolis Colts because he and President Trump would not "dignify any event that disrespects our soldiers, our Flag, or our National Anthem," as he tweeted earlier.

The Colts were playing the 49ers, whose Colin Kaepernick, no longer on the team, started the protests more than a year ago.

Pence's comments extend a controversy over kneeling during the national anthem at NFL games that was re-ignited by Trump more than a week ago.

Setting aside that Colin Kaepernick, who started the protest over police brutality and systemic racism, chose to take a knee rather than to sit during the anthemafter meeting with an army veteran about the symbolism, if Pence says he believes the event is "disrespectful," why did he buy the tickets?

Trump re-ignited the controversy by riling his base up over a protest most people had stopped pretending to be offended by, but the protest has been going on for more than a year.

And Pence certainly knew the history of the 49ers in the protests, or should have. Instead he tweeted excitedly before the game (pic to the right). But had he simply chosen not to attend, he couldn't have put on this show. That required giving money to the organization he claims he's boycotting.

But Pence's move isn't about a genuinely-held belief. It's a rank political stunt at the expense of taxpayers, and reveals the self-masturbatory nature of much of what government officials do.

Pence dragged Secret Service out to Lucas Stadium, only to throw a hissy fit and walk out.

The founders of the country hoped that America's elected officials would not become like the royalty of the British Empire from which they broke off.

Yet over the centuries, the way elected officials treat themselves has approached royalty, particularly for presidents and vice presidents. Millions of dollars of taxpayer money is spent to maintain opulent lifestyles for elected officials—travel is especiallypopular.

The president and the vice president are not American royalty or the American people's parents. No one should care whether or not Pence shows up to an NFL game or walks out in faux outrage, and he should stop trying to make us.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Here's video of Pence's Secret Service detail the moment they realized the flag was about to be disrespected.

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    The best first you've ever made.

  • Half-Virtue, Half-Vice||

    LOL

  • DajjaI||

    At the risk of getting banned again by Reason - if it's not self-masturbatory then you're not doing it right.

  • Wizard4169||

    Masturbation is, by definition, self-service, so yeah, kinda redundant there.

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Right, Pence is the one with the problem. FFS Reason, get your shit together before you're just another progtard site.

  • Alex Jones, Infowars.com||

    Stop wasting your time here. Those fucking libertarians have been socially liberal and fiscally conservative since 1969, Stay with Infowars and Breitbart. Free speech is only a right flor loyal patriots, not traitors.
    Infowars will show the PROOF on Tuesday evening that Reason is just another front for George Soros! PROOF, I tell you.

    THIS is a treasonous as Reason sucking up to the Gay Agenda. (no pun intended)

  • Trigger Warning||

    WTF?

  • Careless||

    He's making fun of the conservative on the libertarian site complaining that it's libertarian, obviously

  • Carter Mitchell||

    It sounds like sarcasm - a parody of the crap that comes out of the so-called "progressive" shitholes, er, mouths from NYT to local news.

  • Michael Hihn||

    ... applied to the equally crazy conservative shitholes here?

  • Carter Mitchell||

    It sounds like sarcasm - a parody of the crap that comes out of the so-called "progressive" shitholes, er, mouths from NYT to local news.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    Haha... awesome.

  • Domestic Dissident||

    The illiterate retards in the NFL have every right to jab their thumb in America's eye, and anyone who doesn't like it has every to tell them to go fuck themselves in response if they feel like doing so.

    Period, end of the story, case closed.

  • Carter Mitchell||

    Kind of like we have the right to tell you the same thing. And while you can call them "illiterate retards" (semantically null), they have more money, recognition, and friends then you'll ever hope to have.

  • Michael Hihn||

    Elitist Mitchell ridicules the non-wealthy ... because only the rich have Free Speech is his fascist paradise!

  • Carter Mitchell||

    Yes, I ridicule you poor slobs, laughing at you as I drive around in my fabulous 2005 Corolla:) And what sort of moron can't differentiate between fascism (or its evil twin socialism) and diametrically opposed libertarianism? Michael, you should really do some research.

    Shouldn't you be over ranting against freedom on the NYT, WSJ, or WaPo sites?

    FYI, they also have more money than I'll ever hope to have - short of a lottery jackpot. LOL

  • Michael Hihn||

    He gets DUMBER!!

    And what sort of moron can't differentiate between fascism (or its evil twin socialism) and diametrically opposed libertarianism?

    Umm, what does THIS aggression have to do with your; ORIGINAL aggression, chump? . Pasted here IN FULL (smirk)

    Kind of like we have the right to tell you the same thing. And while you can call them "illiterate retards" (semantically null), they have more money, recognition, and friends then you'll ever hope to have.

    Does ANYONE see what Herr Mitchell CLAIMS to be a defense of libertarianism AND an attack on fascism? ANYONE AT ALL?

    Or is he just another trash talking cyber-bully, spewing uncontrollable rage?
    >Is this type of aggression committed by LIBERTARIANS? Or by facsists? (sneer)

    It was ME defending freedom ...and him ATTACKING it! But he says it's ME ranting against freedom. WITH SOME ASSHOLES, THERE IS NO END TO THE ASSAULTS.

    VERBAL aggression is Free Speech ... but by the same BULLYING "mentality" as any authoritarian THUG. (This one likely also drools!)
    (snort)

  • Carter Mitchell||

    Let's see, this apparently started of with you calling NFL players who chose not to bow to the flag "illiterate retards", and telling them to "fuck off", right?

    Your ad hominem arguments continue by calling me a fascist, then going into a rant with lots of screaming (bold), name-calling ("Herr Mitchell"? "trash talking cyber-bully"?) and an asshole.

    And finally accuse me of bullying? That is the height of irony

    Oh, yes, I'd like to know whose freedom you're "defending". It didn't appear to be the freedom of football players to express their viewpoints. Or did I mis-understand you, Michael?

  • Delius||

    You know someone has something really insightful to say when they hang that gloriously witty "-tard" suffix on the target of their derision.

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Actually I'm spot on here, and let's be honest, progressives are largely poorly educated idiots. Also, I'm not seeing any genius observations spilling forth from your keyboard pal, so something, something throwing stones, something something, glass houses.

  • Michael Hihn||

    Also, I'm not seeing any genius observations spilling forth from your keyboard pal,

    Why are you making fun of yourself AGAIN, slick?

  • Michael Hihn||

    Yes, Delius, it's like a skit on SNL. The libtards at war with the contards. Both screaming the other is retarded. And both correct -- which a growing majority of Americans already knows!

  • steve walsh||

    Come on Ed, here's a clue: Pence did it all on purpose (bought the tickets and attended the game) so as to send a message.

    Turnabout is fair play.

  • ipsquire||

    Turnabout is fair play until I have to pay for it. Pence grandstands to please the Donald on my tax dollar.

  • CE||

    You know who else walked out of a large stadium before anyone could make a big deal out of the US national anthem and a black athlete?

  • Michael Hihn||

    Adolph Hitler. The Berlin Olympics. Jess Owens.
    Do I get a cookie?

  • CE||

    Hitler is always the answer.

  • Michael Hihn||

    For THAT it is!

    The Berlin Olympics of 1936. Jesse Owens is the story, but it was actually a different black athlete that had won a gold medal, and Hitler left the stadium before Cornelius Johnson was awarded his medal.

    Anything else?

  • Colossal Douchebag||

    No one should care whether or not Pence shows up to an NFL game or walks out in faux outrage, and he should stop trying to make us.

    Well then I'm doing my patriotic part by not giving a little white rat's ass.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Racist!

    I do my part by not giving a little rat of color's ass.

  • Homple||

    Maybe Pence just came to watch a football game, found instead a social justice morality play and decided he had better ways to spend his time.

  • Bee Tagger||

    Yes, had to be it. He left after the "morality play" finished and before the thing he paid to see started.

  • Carter Mitchell||

    You mean "before the thing the taxpayers paid for him to see started"

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    I thought he had a strong idea of how to "spend his time" while the anthem is playing. Or does the morality play extend through the entire game that he came to watch?

    And if every Sensible American's interest is in just watching the game, why do they care what happens during the song that plays before the kickoff? I'd think they'd all want the song excised altogether, as it only delays the start of some FOOTBALL!

  • thorsmjollnir||

    So I guess Pence has been living under a rock for the past year and had no idea that football players have been kneeling during the national anthem?

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Perhaps he foolishly thought they might show some class. Clearly they did not.

  • Crazy mick||

    What a joke. He wastes our tax $ to haul his ass and his security detail to a game knowing he's going to walk out just to try to keep this distraction from Trump's incompetence in the news. And the players are the ones lacking class

  • marshaul||

    Class? Jesus Christ, is it football, or a fucking etiquette pageant?

  • Episteme||

    Last time this sort of think started up at an entertainment even he was at, he ended up getting harangued by the cast of Hamilton.

  • Louis Lucky||

    " No one should care whether or not Pence shows up to an NFL game or walks out in faux outrage,"

    Obviously, Ed Krayewski cares a great deal - he's trying to make a living telling us he embraces the values of those who deny any desire to participate in the culture of this country.

  • ThomasD||

    "he's trying to make a living telling us he embraces the values of those who deny any desire to participate in the culture of this country."

    The truly sad part is that Ed never anticipated this argument.

    Just think "It's not just short sighted, it's hypocritical too!" in your best Dan Akroyd voice.

  • marshaul||

    And Ed didn't have to "anticipate" the argument because it's an absolute straw man (really nothing more than an excuse to virtue signal on the part of Louis here), and its object is a straw man.

    This article has literally nothing to do with the protests per se, nor does it say one thing or another about the protesters. It's purely about the taste of our tax dollars on publicity stunts.

    It's sad to see so-called "conservatives" more interested in identity politics and virtue signaling than, you know, basic fiscal conservatism.

  • marshaul||

    waste* of our tax dollars, although I've no doubt they're also tasty to politicians.

  • marshaul||

    Dammit, I meant to say "non sequitur" the first time I said straw man. Not my day.

  • marshaul||

    If you think singing the national anthem is basically the definition of "participat[ing] in the culture of this country", then, well, let's just say I'm glad we don't go to the same parties.

  • Bee Tagger||

    How could he know players were kneeling? Is Pence admitting, publicly, that he took his eyes of the flag during the national anthem?

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    And he could see through the tears in his eyes?

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    Even opening your eyes at all hurts ones ability to listen and dream of George Washington riding a Bald Eagle. Sad.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Trump re-ignited the controversy by riling his base up over a protest most people had stopped pretending to be offended by, but the protest has been going on for more than a year."

    If you succeed in convincing enough people that those who are disgusted by well-paid athletes dissing the national anthem and the flag are "Trump's base", then you'll ensure that Trump wins reelection.

    Maybe you think that "Trump's base" are the right-wing radicals who like Santa Claus and Mom's apple pie, too?

    If there's any disservice anyone could have done to the BLM movement greater than associating them with disrespect for the anthem or the flag, I'm not sure what it would be. Maybe they could get the NFL players to start kicking puppies in the name of social justice, too?

    It's hard to see how Trump or Pence could lose any support over this in swing states like Wisconsin, Ohio, or Michigan--and if they can troll the media into making respect for the flag and the anthem a pro-Trump campaign issue, we're going to see most everyone to the right of BLM radicals become part of "Trump's base".

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    If there's any disservice anyone could have done to the BLM movement greater than associating them with disrespect for the anthem or the flag, I'm not sure what it would be.

    Associating it with Marxism.

    The politics of what Pence did, I'm dubious he benefits much if any from keeping this thing alive. They likely did get a bump from it initially but I believe beyond last week we enter a period of diminishing returns on it. People are or will be ready to move on.

  • Aloysious||

    Associating it with Marxism.

    ugh. Doesn't get any uglier than that.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    I hope to see NFL attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales continue to drop until the league screams in pain over it and finally gets the message. Progressives must learn that they are cultural outliers and that when they pull this shit it will fail.

    The progressive movement must be broken and it's members crushed.

  • marshaul||

    The progressive movement must be broken and it's members crushed.

    Good luck with that.

  • Lily Bulero||

    "If there's any disservice anyone could have done to the BLM movement greater than associating them with disrespect for the anthem or the flag, I'm not sure what it would be."

    Blocking highways?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    It always comes down to roads with you people.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    We cherish the roads, for when our libertarian dream world of a Mad Max Apacolypse comes true we need the perfect roads to race for the remaining water and gasoline.

  • Dizzle||

    Saying black lives matter while also crying racism/fake news anytime anyone cites statistics showing things like abortions, children born out of wedlock, std's, drug crimes, and murder rates are higher among their demographic?

    I'm pro choice, and think the police absolutely have overstepped their authority in a good bit of these cases and things need to be addressed. But the problems with black community-police relations clearly are a two way street. If large swaths of the black lives Matter group want to ignore their communities responsibility in these matters they're tone deaf and not really worth engaging. That's the reason a majority of Americans brush them off and don't take them seriously.

  • ipsquire||

    As long as you think any 2 black people have anything in common besides skin color, you're part of the problem. Sorry to burst your self image.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    So by that logic, BLM is the problem, yes?

  • marshaul||

    Definitely. And, only someone wrapped up in identity politics would even think that an inconsistency in the argument in the first place.

    You see, for those of us who don't identify with one of these equally dumb-assed "sides", it isn't about scoring some rhetorical point for that "side", or virtue signalling to others who identify it, it's about facts and reason.

    And, yeah, all the possible permutations of "any [black/white] person who thinks that any two [black/white] people have anything in common besides skin color, is part of the problem" are equally valid. And, I might add, all right on the money.

  • marshaul||

    virtue signalling to others who identify with it

    Definitely not my day.

  • marshaul||

    virtue signalling to others who identify with it

    Definitely not my day.

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    BLM could shoot themselves in the foot some more by branching out and starting a 'Pardon Sandusky' campaign. Or maybe displaying 'NAMBLA' banners next to those 'Workers of the World' signs at their marches/riots.

  • jomo||

    Are you a Milo fan?

  • buybuydandavis||

    If there's any disservice anyone could have done to the BLM movement greater than associating them with disrespect for the anthem or the flag, I'm not sure what it would be.

    The Left sows the fear, hatred, and resentment of identity politics to divide and conquer the peasants.

    The purpose of BLM is to divide blacks from the rest of Americans. It has taken the usual identity politics move further. Not content with getting Blacks to hate Whitey, they're working hard to get Blacks to hate all non-Black Americans, and non-Black Americans to hate Blacks.

  • marshaul||

    Well, you do the same thing. "Conservative" progressives (which is what you really are) behave exactly the same.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Isn't wasting money being silly the traditional role of the VP?

  • marshaul||

    "Isn't wasting money being silly the traditional role of the VPgovernment in general?"

    FTFY.

  • Number 7||

    people being outraged about other people being outraged about other people being outraged about other people being outraged is supplanting football as the most popular sport in America.

  • marshaul||

    It is, and I am outraged about it!

  • esteve7||

    Boycotts are cool only when leftists do it.

    Sjws only know force and power, but when someone to the right of Stalin voluntarily does something then you lose your shit.

  • Alex Jones, Infowars.com||

    You lost your shit TOO! But for OUR tribe. We need safe spaces too!!!
    WHIMPER FOR JESUS!.

  • esteve7||

    Not associating with something because you refuse to entertain it's stupidity is not a safe space you stooge, it's freedom of association. Why do I have to explain that on a libertarian site?

    Demanding your college have segregated spaces where you can cry and bitch without hearing differing opinions is a safe space.

  • Alex Jones, Infowars.com||

    Huh? College??. The stooge is you.
    And I'm being kind.

    I never realized that "freedom" of association means mandatory association. Is that what I should learn on a libertarian web site? Visit me at Infowars.com.where liberty is still celebrated, not mocked.

  • Palatki||

    Your criticism is divisive.

  • Alex Jones, Infowars.com||

    To snowflakes, but they,'re all pussies

  • marshaul||

    Demanding that nobody belittle your precious fucking flag at your precious fucking football game is also demanding a "safe space", you thoughtless pussy.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    Alex,

    You're the best new troll at Reason.com. I congratulate you, sir.

  • Alex Jones, Infowars.com||

    Nice try, but I KNOW you're sitting me up.
    (Why not add Pol Pot to your handle?)

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot||

    Great idea, Alex! You're the best. Muah!

  • MarkLastname||

    Perhaps you and Hihn have the same mental disorder, you two can form a support group.

  • Michael Hihn||

    MarkLastname
    "... the same mental disorder... "

    Says the adult one.

  • Texasmotiv||

    He should have walked out on the Colts because they suck.

  • CE||

    The Colts won in OT

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    He heard "Hamilton" was playing a matinee down the street.

  • Incomprehensible Bitching||

    Hamilton is the best work of art ever, and I will fuck you up if you say otherwise!

    Get woke, mothafucka!

  • esteve7||

    Eh it's not that good

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    That's what makes it great.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "The president and the vice president are not American royalty or the American people's parents. No one should care whether or not Pence shows up to an NFL game or walks out in faux outrage, and he should stop trying to make us."

    You don't seem to be getting that Pence is with the common man on this, and it's the progtard aristocracy in the media who have gotten waaaaaaay out ahead of themselves in telling us what we're supposed to like.

    Have you not seen what's been happening to the NFL's ratings?

    Have you not seen what's been happening to the NFL's ticket sales?

    That's what average people are doing--not Pence. And those are just the people who are so disgusted, they decided to stop watching and buying tickets on stub hub--not the people who are willing to plug their nose and watch their favorite team anyway.

    No way Pence loses by snubbing athletes for dissing the flag.

    No. Way.

    How can people be so obtuse as to think that well-paid athletes dissing the flag is popular?

    I understand claiming they should be able to dis the flag without being arrested for it, but why is it important to think that it's the people who are disgusted by unpatriotic displays that are out in the cold?

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Many people appear to think that only asshole progressives have their free speech rights, and no one else is free to challenge their ideas. The irony of that is almost palpable.

  • Think It Through||

    I already knew Pence's position on this, and I didn't need some faux theater of him "going" to a game and walking out to enhance it. If he thinks that added to his point, not only is he an idiot, he thinks I'M one.

  • marshaul||

    This is only true unless, like Ken Schultz and Last of the Shitlords, you are really impressed by virtue signaling.

  • Ken Shultz||

    For Pete's sake, is it really hard to believe that disrespecting America is unpopular with average Americans?

    Earth to the media, Earth to the media, can you read me, media?

    At some point, you went over the edge, and I'm not sure there's any way back once you've gone that far. If there is, the first step has got to be recognizing that you may be off somehow.

    Here's what you do! Take a look at the ratings and ticket sales. You remember "markets"? That's the voice of American people speaking.

    Not Pence. Pence is just looking at the numbers and hearing their voice.

    You know, we've got the Olympics coming up? If the left doesn't figure it out soon, they're gonna have a hard time digging themselves out of this hole. Are you gonna see Olympic athletes dissing the flag?

    How are they gonna dig themselves out of that?

    Watching the left talk about the flag like this is like listening to an especially raunchy version of the Aristocrats joke--only instead of engaging in the most deviant sexual behavior imaginable, the left is doing everything they can to offend the patriotic sensibilities of centrist voters, and for the punch line, when the guy asks, "Amazing act, what do you call it?", the guy answers, "The Democrats!".

  • Lily Bulero||

    That last paragraph is awesome.

  • Lily Bulero||

    If the Democrats actually had higher-order thinking skills, and a sense of self-preservation, they'd get out in front of this issue by staging walkouts, issuing indignant tweets, etc.

    Like Bill Clinton with Sister Souljah.

  • Lily Bulero||

    They'd be holding flag-draped press conferences saying that "because police brutality is anti-American, therefore we strongly disavow the sincere but misguided individuals who protest America in the name of protesting police brutality."

  • Ken Shultz||

    +1

    It is not within the realm of possibility for progressives to believe that America doesn't want what they want.

    Progressive Club Rule #1: The people want what we want.

    Progressive Club Rule #2: If the people don't like what we want, see Progressive Rule #1.

  • Tony||

    Nobody is protesting the flag or America. That is the bullshit self-serving cynical spin the Trump administration is putting on it to distract from their many, many failures, and you're a fucking moron if you don't realize that.

  • Tony||

    Fuck you and your fucking flag-waving bullshit. Everyone here knows that you start wiping your ass with the flag the moment someone with a (D) after his name becomes president. Jesus Christ. First graders are better libertarians than you idiots.

  • marshaul||

    Ken Schultz is hardly a libertarian, even by the recent standards of the comment section here.

  • marshaul||

    You realize there's a huge class of Americans to whom "patriotic sensibilities" are mutually exclusive with flag fellatio, because we actually remember what this country is about, rather than obsessing over reductionist symbolism.

  • MikeP2||

    Nice whine Ed.

    Trump/Pence were elected largely due to the growing backlash against sjw moralizing and the dems constant denigration of middle america. Many voted for a repub who was finally willing to fight the culture war.

    So, really, trump and pence are doing exactly what many voters want them to do...refuse to accept asinine swj posturing and fight the fight. But i guess its only okay when the left does it, eh Ed?

  • Longtobefree||

    So, he was unaware of the minor issues preceding the "overpriced millionaires recreation and ranting club" activities? Maybe he should start reading a few of his bosses tweets.

  • Lily Bulero||

    Look, let's consider a parallel case:

    Suppose NASCAR was actually as racist as progs think it is - imagine that there was a halftime show where a monkey marched around in a Martin Luther King mask...on Martin Luther King's birthday.

    Would distinguished guests be expected to stay seated, or would they be expected to walk out? I think the latter.

  • marshaul||

    False dilemma. The correct answer is: everybody else would be expected to not give a shit whether they stay or not.

  • Bruce Hall||

    It appears that the players were first to throw a hissy fit an posture.

  • Lily Bulero||

    What is their end game? The public's consciousness gets so raised that the voters abolish the police unions?

  • Lily Bulero||

    "I thought your kneeling protest was pointless and childish, but then I saw police behavior improve while crime went down, and I realized that your stance actually helped!"

  • AngelaTC||

    So kneeling in protest isn't a stunt, but walking out to protest the protest is?

  • Lily Bulero||

    "Why are you overreacting to my deliberately provocative behavior?"

  • Trigger Warning||

    The motto of every Internet troll ever.

  • marshaul||

    The difference is my tax dollars pay for one of the stunts, and not the other.

    Does anybody else remember when "conservatives" were actually conservative? Try to talk about basic fiscal responsibility with any of them and you just get a bunch of identity politics and virtue signaling BS.

    Sad.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "But Pence's move isn't about a genuinely-held belief. It's a rank political stunt at the expense of taxpayers, and reveals the self-masturbatory nature of much of what government officials do.

    Pence dragged Secret Service out to Lucas Stadium, only to throw a hissy fit and walk out."

    It turns out that Trump asked Pence to leave if there was a protest against the flag:

    "I asked @VP Pence to leave stadium if any players kneeled, disrespecting our country. I am proud of him and @SecondLady Karen."

    ----Donald Trump
    Twitter

    http://tinyurl.com/y8wy2qtd

    You should probably take back all the rotten things you said about Pence. I don't think it's the business of the Vice President to publicly oppose the President--unless the President is doing something illegal or that violates someone's rights.

    And it's probably inappropriate for the Vice President to sit there grinning while other people are openly disrespecting the flag. Silence in the face of bad behavior can easily be misinterpreted as condoning it. Pence is a breath away from being the Commander in Chief. Why should he sit there and tolerate the flag our armed forces are saluting?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Why should he sit there and tolerate [people disrespecting] the flag our armed forces are saluting?"

    Fixed!

    You all knew what I meant.

  • GeneralWeygand||

    clean fix. well done

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    JFC

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Hey, Mr. Hat: I am assuming you are being sarcastic, right?

  • Ken Shultz||

    You have an objection?

    You think the Vice President should publicly oppose the President?

    You think it's appropriate for the Vice President to sit there grinning while people are dissing the flag?

    You think military people take kindly to people dissing the flag?

    WTF are you whining about?

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    JFC Hat, not whining. Just legitimately curious that you said this when your twitter seems to be full of mockery for what Pence is doing today.

  • Ken Shultz||

    So you're a troll with nothing to say.

    That's fascinating to someone, I'm sure.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    And you're a dick who alienates people who agree with you and read literally everything you write, jackass.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Up yours.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    I know it won't make a difference to you, but consider your own role in the coarsening of our culture, and know that I used to check your site every day until this interaction with you, you fucking douche.

  • Ken Shultz||

    You want to me make you some some hot chocolate so you can tell me more about your feelings, snowflake?

    JFC

  • buybuydandavis||

    Ken has a site? Besides Reason Comments? Do tell!

    And what's the Twitter handle?

  • KBeckman||

    1. I don't care much for political theater.

    2. Sure. He is his own person and it's a separately elected position.

    3. Again, he is his own person

    4. Some do some don't.

  • Lily Bulero||

    Trump could tweet that "I love baths and deodorant," and soon every prog in the country would protest by...hmmm, I guess it wouldn't make that much difference. Bad choice of example.

  • Trigger Warning||

    The world's dumbest, most brain-damaging sport. But enough about politics.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    "I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."

  • Crusty Juggler||

  • Crusty Juggler||

    The president and the vice president are not American royalty or the American people's parents. No one should care whether or not Pence shows up to an NFL game or walks out in faux outrage, and he should stop trying to make us.

    You're going to care whether you want to or not.

    2017: You're either with us or against us! Pick a side!!!!

  • CE||

    Oh, so NOW it's okay to disrespect the office of the president....

  • Crusty Juggler||

    OT: Our 21st-Century Second Amendment

    The right to keep and bear arms would still be there without the Second Amendment. Like the right not to suffer political or religious repression, it exists with or without the law. It is an aspect of the human being, not an aspect of the governments that human beings institute among themselves. The state does not grant the right — the state exists because the right exists and needs protecting from time to time. The state protects our rights from criminals and marauders, and the Constitution protects our rights from their protectors.

    Sometimes I want to ravish Kevin Williamson's gigantic body even though he despises poor white people.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    You know he grew up poor and white, and doesn't like poverty, not poor people, right?

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    And everything he said about those shitty small white towns is true, as an aside.

    FUCKING MOVE, MOVE AWAY FROM THE METH AND THE FARMS AND THE INDOLENCE!

  • MarkLastname||

    I'm going to assume he was being sarcastic about Williamson hating poor white people. Most things around here are sarcastic.

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    Nonsense on stilts.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    How?

  • buybuydandavis||

    From Williamson's article Chaos in the Family, Chaos in the State: The White Working Class's Dysfunction

    The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die.

    He's vermin.

  • marshaul||

    He said the communities deserve to die, not the people. I don't think that "vermin"ous.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Cause communities mean nothing to people. As long as their hearts keep beating, it's all good.

    They're nothing more than cattle anyway. What do cattle care about where they are herded, and with whom?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    OT: Libertarian Bill Weld will head up a fund-raising event . . . for the GOP

    At Tuesday night's event, he will join Baker, Mitt Romney, and Jane Swift as the featured draw by the state Republican Party, which is looking to use its former leaders to raise money.

    Meanwhile, just four days after he cavorts with his old GOP pals, Massachusetts Libertarians will hold their annual convention in Westborough — an event Weld is not going to attend because, he says, of a prior commitment. He is taping a message for the gathering.

    Natch.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Bill Weld's treachery will be remembered a hundred years from now.

    FFS, for Hillary? That's who you are a traitor for? At least Benedict Arnold was doing it for Britain, which is awesome.

  • Lily Bulero||

    "It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Hillary?"

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    I mean, I know he got bribed (an ambassadorship) but being willing to sell it all for ambassador to even a good country shows how little you valued your station, and thus your lack of fitness initially.

    Gary Johnson's greatest mistake, and History's Greatest Monster. The LP could be competing for Senate seats right now and we ain't gonna do shit, thanks to those assholes in the party who didn't vote for Austin Peterson bc "arrogance". Fuck you all.

    Also, OT, but Fuck Lew Rockwell.

  • ||

    If he wanted Hillary for president so badly, the party should have dealt with him the same way Hillary would had he pulled that shit on her.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Oh yeah. Hillary's questionnaire for a VP probably had a signature in blood promising loyalty past the grave.

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    Gary Johnson's greatest mistake

    not even close

  • Fk_Censorship||

    You had me up til Austin. He is an empty rhetoric and soundbite machine. I attended an event and was not impressed at all. I am not even convinced that he is convinced about libertarian beliefs. McAfee, on the other hand...

  • marshaul||

    Yeah, at least you can say McAfee really groks liberty in a very real, experiential sense.

  • damikesc||

    Gary Johnson DEMANDED that he be his VP.

    That should demonstrate what an absolute idiot GayJay is.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    OTDr. Seuss museum mural to be replaced amid claims of a racist depiction

    "We recently learned that a key component of this institution honoring Dr. Seuss features a mural depicting a scene from his first book, 'And to Think That I Saw It on Mullberry Street,' and within the selected art is a jarring racial stereotype of a Chinese man, who is depicted with chopsticks, a pointed hat and slanted slit eyes," the complaint reads. "We find this caricature of 'the Chinaman' deeply hurtful, and we have concerns about children's exposure to it."

    The Springfield Mayor Domenic Sarno slammed the authors' criticism and museum's decision to remove the mural, asking "where do we draw the line?"

    "This is political correctness at its worst, and this is what is wrong with our country," he said in a statement, according to WWLP. "We have extreme fringe groups on both the right and the left dictating an agenda to divide instead of working together towards the betterment of our country."

    The museum said Thursday that the mural will be replaced by images from later books.

    *burns copy of Breakfast At Tiffany's in solidarity*

  • Lily Bulero||

    Ah, so.

    All a bunch of Ah, so.

  • BearOdinson||

    OOH OOH OOH!!! Ive got this:

    "THE CHINAMAN IS NOT THE ISSUE!"

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Anybody suspect that Pence, like the fucking rest of us, is genuinely and legitimately sick of these goddam NFL players lecturing us about how horrible we are?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    No.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    If you were paying attention to Pence for years before he became VP, like I was, you would realize he is exactly the type of guy who is now boycotting the NFL. Like me.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Or, he is a politician taking advantage of an overly politicized issue that will play right into his side's hands?

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Like he spoke at the March for Life, or is an outspoken Christian, because those things are so politically effective and popular? Or perhaps, genuine belief, like his patriotism?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    hose things are so politically effective and popular?

    to his supporters they certainly are.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    He gets crucified in the media and nationally for being faithful to his church and his wife and his country. I bet it's not for show. His views no doubt hurt him nationally and in the sinfully depraved swing states like Pennsylvania and Michigan which are nothing but rotting factories and abortions.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    He gets crucified in the media and nationally for being faithful to his church and his wife and his country.

    By those in the media who dislike him. There are plenty of others on the other side of the media world who respect him.

    I bet it's not for show.

    His religiousness? I wouldn't think so.

    His views no doubt hurt him nationally and in the sinfully depraved swing states like Pennsylvania and Michigan which are nothing but rotting factories and abortions.

    I don't know if I should answer this seriously, but he is the sitting vice president, so it didn't hurt him all that much.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    The type of voter Trump won over, post-religious, Dem-but-white-and-angry, HATE HATE HATE people like Pence for their religious pomposity. I can't imagine his George W Bush vibe has helped him since ~2005. I suspect he's not faking it on the patriotism or the flag.

  • Lily Bulero||

    Don't forget the meth.

  • Lily Bulero||

    "Meth is hard."

    /Junkie Barbie

  • buybuydandavis||

    Winner

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Yeah, I forgot meth and the government job to pay for said meth.

  • Lily Bulero||

    I usually don't say this, but you might be being a tad cynical.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Hey what good is a job taking peoples children away from their families to be put into foster homes and raped if you can't spend your hard won earnings on meth? Not that I am referring to a particularly seedy meth-ridden midwestern state.

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    If you were paying attention to Pence for years before he became VP, like I was, you would realize he is exactly the type of guy who is now boycotting the NFL. Like me.

    Except the part where he's not boycotting the NFL.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    No.

  • Paint Thinner||

    Yes, he is a white supremacists you, so of course

  • SlyJeff||

    Nope. If he was, he simply wouldn't have bought the tickets.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    OT: Finally, a feel good story: Black Hawk gift to Afghan forces marks 16th anniversary of war

    KABUL, Afghanistan — The United States officially gave the Afghan air force its first Black Hawk helicopters on Saturday, as the country marked 16 years since a U.S.-led invasion ousted the Taliban from power and ignited America's longest war.


    Under current plans, the Afghan air force should receive nearly 160 Black Hawks over the coming years to replace its aging fleet of Russian-made Mi-17 helicopters. The aircraft are used to transport troops and supplies, perform medical evacuations and provide close air support.

    So sweet.

  • Edward Henry Carson||

    Hey, they need those choppers to protect ass-raping pedo warlords and to kill more Americans when they snap and kill Americans.

    A penny less for the DoD is tantamount to treason, come on.

  • Episteme||

    Black Hawk Down Payment

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Pence is the epitome of a douchebag.

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Silly PB........what you meant to say is that YOU are the epitome of a douchebag.

  • Crusty Juggler||

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Probably their severe myopia too, tbh.

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    Zing.

    Wha' Happened? to lawbertarian? :(

  • Crusty Juggler||

  • Bra Ket||

    self-masturbatory


    redundant.

  • Unlabelable MJGreen||

    For losers, maybe.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    Jesus Christ, do all Republicans virtue signal like the whiny bitches they are?

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Once again, you're projecting. Non-progressives have souls, and an actual conscience. So when we see revolting things, we react accordingly. Whereas a soulless unclean thing, such as yourself, feigns emotion, much as a psychopath would, to gain advantage. In your case, more Marxism, and less individual freedoms.

  • Paint Thinner||

    Despite insulting gold star parents and McCain, piece of shit Pence walks out of football game swearing his loyalty to the piece of shit who did that.

    And reason.com finds a way to skip past that

  • Lily Bulero||

    You sound like you've been inhaling yourself too much.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    I don't get it. You mean by agreeing to be the VP in Dear Leader's administration headed by The guy that said he liked soldiers that didn't get captured? Yeah, I know, Pence is as shameless a hypocrite as they come.

  • Lily Bulero||

    What a new low in campaigning that was, saying he liked soldiers who *didn't* get captured!

    Of course if you're some nancy-boy who likes detail, nuance and context, you can point out that McCain insulted Trump and Trump replied by reminding the public that McCain's much-ballhooed heroism stems from the genius move of having his plane shot down.

    But in politics, it's never OK to use harsh language or shock people, that is if you're on the wrong side.

  • Lily Bulero||

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    There is never an excuse for the kind of thing Trump said about McCain. Ever.

    Complaining about NFL players disrespecting the flag while evuivocating about Trump's disrespect of a veteran's sacrifice is the *definition* of hypocrisy.

  • Lily Bulero||

    If I knew what "evuivocating" was, I'd be offended at that insult.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Evuivocating (eh-vwihv-oh-kāt-ing) (verb): "homing in on an opponent's minor grammatical error in a comment board conversation so as to avoid addressing an accusation for which you have no reasonable response".

    See Also:
    Grammar Nazi
    Pedant
    Lily Bulero

  • Lily Bulero||

    If someone says crap about you and added, "and you aren't allowed to answer because I had cancer!" would you simply say nothing because you were afraid of being seen as pro-cancer?

  • Lily Bulero||

    Wow, there must be a lot of self-hating veterans out there...

    "Swing-state counties with especially high numbers of veterans helped propel Donald Trump to the White House, suggesting that his attacks this summer on a Gold Star family did not dampen support for him in military communities.

    "In a number of counties in Ohio, North Carolina and Florida, Trump beat Hillary Clinton by wider margins than his Republican predecessors performed against Obama in the last two presidential races. All three swing states have rich military traditions and numerous counties in which thousands or tens of thousands of veterans live.

    "Exit polls suggest veterans voted for Trump by about a 2 to 1 margin, reflecting the typical Republican bent of this group of voters. But the numbers also mean that a number of Trump's controversial remarks on veterans and foreign policy did not significantly damage his support among military families."

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    If you had actually answered the accusation in your first reply, that analogy might be relevant. But being a Grammar Einsatzgruppe is not an answer.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    And veterans' support is a commentary on the unacceptability of his opponent, not the quality or basic acceptability of Donald Trump as a human being.

  • Lily Bulero||

    Piss off, smegma-face.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Ooh, a Were-snowflake! I've never seen one transform before!

  • Lily Bulero||

    Oh, a coprophagic imbecile, I've seen his kind before!

  • Lily Bulero||

    You seem very concerned that I don't take your bullshit accusations seriously.

    So here is my detailed rebuttal.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    A, please stop othering me for my physical impairments and eating disorder, you able-ist shitlord,

    B, you are SERIOUSLY overreacting. I disagree with your original comment's assertion that Trump's comment was acceptable. I also think that *on that specific issue* you were being hypocritical. And I think pointing out my grammatical error was nitpicking. None of that was intended as a condemnation of *Lily Bulero as a political commentator or human being in his entirety*.

    Responding to my jabs with feces- and genital-related personal insults is like responding to a mean tweet with a lawsuit. I don't understand why you are taking this so seriously.

  • GeneralWeygand||

    Einsatzgruppe....sehr lüstig!!

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Danke. Yea... that's prolly what pissed her off...

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    What Trump said was clumsy, but McCain's legend needed to have some air let out of it. He's done a lot of terrible things during the 30+ years in the Senate that he's been cashing in on the few good things he did as a POW. And he plays that card anytime someone criticizes him.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    "the few good things he did as a POW"

    My problem is the inclination of a whole lot of Right-wingers these days to dismiss 5 years of suffering as "a few good things", when you know damn well they would go apeshit if Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton had said the same.

    Trump: "I like the ones who weren't captured!"
    Red-Rs: "Sure. Why are you snowflakes so mad?"

    Alternate Timeline Obama, 2008: "I like the ones who weren't captured!"
    Red-Rs: "HAHHK- SPPFFFLT-YARGH! BUUUAAGHH! GRAAAHHH!"

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    Then take it up with the right-wingers in your head.

    If BO had said the same, it would have been a little jarring because it goes against his "above the fray" image. But I wouldn't have been spitting mad about it. I have plenty of other reasons to be spitting mad at him.

    5 years of noble suffering balanced against 45 years of corruption, deceit, and statist cheerleading isn't much.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Maybe you wouldn't've been spitting, but Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter absolutely would've. The Right as a broad concept is as grossly hypocritical about its standard bearers as the Left; but regardless of where you stand on the Right-Left spectrum, dismissing those 5 years as "not much" just always causes me to ask, "if it had happened to you, would you think it was 'not much'?"

    I'ma guess prolly not, and meanwhile McCain's record is hardly perfectly evil. He is always the first to rip into wasteful military spending (see: MHS hearings, his recent grilling of the Army brass for their terrible record on R&D), he has spoken out against torture, and his waffling on immigration, though it may enrage Right-leaning "lawbertarians", nonetheless always pushed for a more libertarian policy approach. Plus, by 86ing the R healthcare bills, he saved the Rs from getting the blame for whatever horrors yet arise from Obamacare in whatever form it takes in the years to come.

  • damikesc||

    McCain deserves insulting. Him being a POW does not excuse his vendetta against the First Amendment. And Gold Star families? You mean that one family at the DNC? My heart bleeds for them. Truly.

  • damikesc||

    Despite insulting gold star parents and McCain, piece of shit Pence walks out of football game swearing his loyalty to the piece of shit who did that.

    I also note you have no problem with NFL players, who began their mass protests on a day set aside to celebrate gold Star families and the like...

  • ||

    People that "claim" be patriots on the weekend by watching football and feel irritated by player's protests need to look at the big picture. Prior to this debacle the NFL was trying desperately hard to make the game "safe", by taking such acts as having board certified doctors on the sidelines and if a player had a concussion, the game would be halted and the player would be removed from the field.

    This taking a knee scandal is exactly what the owners wanted to do in the first place.

  • Lily Bulero||

    I'm not a football fan, so it's not as if they're losing my business, but some fans are indeed taking their business elsewhere.

    The Reason staff needs to be more empathetic and think of how *they'd* react if the sponsors of, say, a badminton contest (or whatever sports these cosmos prefer) put up with public insults, during the game, to the memory of Martin Luther King, and then expressed shock if Reason staffers stopped showing up at badminton games.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Shuttlecocks are white

  • Lily Bulero||

    Sir, have you been drinking?

  • AlmightyJB||

    I wish. Recuperating from last night. Getting ready to crash early.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Does Pence want to go back to the days before football players starting kneeling and cops used to shoot people without cause?

  • Lily Bulero||

    Yeah, the moral force generated by these protests has made all cops more accountable and less trigger-happy, it's a miracle.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Yeah, who knew solving complex social problems would have such a shallow, symbolic solution.

  • MarkLastname||

    No, he wants to put blacks back in chains. He and Mitt have invested heavily in cotton.

  • IceTrey||

    Pence hates kneegroes.

  • paranoid android||

    A country that would elevate the feelings of assholes like Mike Pence or Donald Trump over people exercising their rights to speak out against very real Injustice and brutality ought to be disrespected.

    Kneeling football players don't make me embarrassed for my country, the President and Vice President do.

  • IceTrey||

    When have they ever protested black on black crime? Whites aren't killing blacks the blacks are.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    Whites are killing blacks. Blacks are killing blacks. Police (both white and black) are killing blacks. This particular protest is primarily about police killing blacks.

    By analogy, prostate cancer is killing people. Colon cancer is killing people. Breast cancer is killing people. The NFL's focus has been on breast cancer awareness. The fact that they focus on only one of the cancers should not be taken as an insult to people with the other forms of cancer.

    As libertarians, we should universally aim for a reduction in police-on-black abuse. We should also aim for a reduction in police-on-white abuse too, but taking steps to advocate for just one doesn't mean you're automatically against the other.

  • MarkLastname||

    If some white people protested black history month out of solidarity for white victims of black criminals, would you have the same assessment? Because they'd be equally justified.

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    Their right to speak out is tempered by the rights of others to criticize them for doing so, the rights of fans to refuse to support their products, and the rights of their bosses to fire them.

    Your freedom of speech does not restrict my freedom of association.

  • Tony||

    He knew they were gonna protest! You're seriously dismissing this entire stunt with "the vice president has rights too!" You get that that is a conversation stopper? That it's mindless defense of stupid, cynical action by a politician presumably because you like the political party he belongs to?

  • walkcore||

    I don't understand why people are so triggered about kneeling at the anthem. Patriotism comes in many forms. One of those forms is rebellion and dissent.

    Secondly, Kaepernick spoke to a green beret about the protest and he recommended kneeling as a way to pay respect to the troops while still protesting. Even if you don't like the action, the intent was to avoid disrespecting the troops.

    Third, there were only FOUR players kneeling for the anthem before Trump acting like a toddler on twitter and called them "sons of a bitch." They all kneeling the following week in protest of him, not the soldiers.

    People who believe this administration actually cares about the troops are idiots. Trump himself said John McCain isn't a war hero, because he was a POW. He disrespected a Gold Star family.

    This is nothing but a distraction to his working class base. If yo don't see that, you're blind.

  • Lily Bulero||

    "He disrespected a Gold Star family."

    Are you talking about the husband and wife (mainly the husband) who came on stage at the Democratic National Convention to criticize Trump?

    Trump must really hate the military to criticize them!

  • Lily Bulero||

    It's amazing Trump won with all those soldiers voting against him because of his insults to Gold Star families! /sarc

  • Lily Bulero||

    "Kaepernick spoke to a green beret about the protest"

    Did he ask the green beret about honoring communist dictators?

    Kaepernick's Castro T-shirt

  • Sevo||

    Quit picking on Kaep; dimwits need some slack, and he's certainly a dimwit.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    You make a good point. Like most of his peers, CK is not exactly the sharpest pencil in the box.

  • Lily Bulero||

    "a way to pay respect to the troops while still protesting"

    Well, whatever, respecting the USA *includes,* but is not limited to, respecting the soldiers responsible for the country's safety.

    He apparently wants to respect the troops without respecting the country: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

    I bet the troops just feel the respect oozing out of every pore. "I totally respect you despite the fact you're fighting for a racist country which is unworthy of honor."

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    If he chooses his gesture to mean a particular thing, then who are we to tell him "no, you really mean something else!"

    If these guys have done it to raise awareness about police brutality and its racial bias, nobody can say it didn't work. I get the sense that a disturbing number of people who call themselves libertarian either don't acknowledge that police brutality is a very real thing, or acknowledge that it's real but don't seem to see the value when the advocacy group is focusing on black people. I get that there are a lot of conservatives who visit this site, and that they historically don't share the same stance as libertarians on issues re: police and government force, so that might entirely explain it.

  • Dizzle||

    There's a reason the phrase "perception is reality" exists. The intent of their actions does not matter to outsiders, only the perception does.

    It's hilarious to hear people say this crap like "the intent was to avoid disrespecting the troops" or "people don't get to assign intent to someone else's protest" or "it's not about the anthem or flag or troops its about police injustice"... when on the flip the anthem they are kneeling for has nothing to do with justice or equality or the police either. It's simply a song to remind us of the sacrifices of those during the revolution.

    If you wont to protest injustice by police, go to the fucking police station. That's the attitude i think most Americans have.

  • Sevo||

    "There's a reason the phrase "perception is reality" exists. The intent of their actions does not matter to outsiders, only the perception does."

    Hanoi Jane was married to Ted Turner at the time when he owned the braves (still does?) and they were in the stands as the Braves made the playoffs. You young'uns who never tied an onion to your belt can leave and go back to your 'face-page' stuff now.
    Anyhow, there was Ted on TV, doing the "chop" to that dirge they used at the time, Jane in the next seat. And the announcers were quite clear, that in sympathy with "Native Americans" (I'm not?), Jane was doing the "chop" at some angle off the prescribed vertical. Seriously. That's what she did and that's what they said.
    What a wonderful, meaningful and materially effective show of support that was! Poor Amer-Ind kids immediately began scoring higher in the Rez schools, and their families quite subsisting on gov't handouts and got jobs!
    Impressive!

  • MarkLastname||

    Is conflating the national anthem with Trump (or supposed police white supremacy) any less juvenile than conflating protesting the nationalism with hating America and soldiers? I don't see how one can be profound activism and the other hypocritical nonsense. I'll go with both being the latter.

  • Lily Bulero||

    I don't know about all the protesters, but this Colin K fellow said "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

    But he says he respects the troops, he just doesn't particularly like the country whose uniform the troops wear.

  • Sevo||

    Dunno how to answer Mark's question, but I'm serious regarding Kaepernick; he is not real bright and any statement by him has to be filtered by that knowledge.
    He had no problem standing while he was a starting QB. He was demoted to 2nd-string and then found a "cause". That should tell you something.

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    He's burqa-whipped.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    I'll bet he would stand if any team offered him $4 million per year and a starting position.

  • Mark22||

    I don't understand why people are so triggered about kneeling at the anthem. Patriotism comes in many forms. One of those forms is rebellion and dissent.

    These people are ultra-privileged beneficiaries of the US system; for them to claim that they are "rebelling and dissenting" is ludicrous hypocrisy.

  • Agile Cyborg||

    Pence did his job.
    Like most of you fucking people who actually work to provide shelter for your children.
    Trump did a job he was voted to fucking do.
    Most of you DO NOT get voted in to do a fucking job but you understand how this shit works... you get this world of employment.
    The NFL fucks are supposed to do a job most across America would be fired if they all did NOT do.
    SOMEHOW NFL FUCKS are special.
    UNLIKE all the other motherfucking Americans who have to do a goddamn
    JOB and be TOLD by a BOSS whether white, black, green, yellow, brown, aqua, or space alien HOW
    they MUST perform their motherfucking jobs..... OR ELSE BE FIRED!!
    THESE motherfuckers are somehow special?
    They are goddamn FUCKING leather BALL RUNNERS AND CHASERS on and across lines that make thousands of unthinking ticket purchasers happy for some shit reason... NOTHING MORE!

  • Elias Fakaname||

    ^This.

    And it's not like pro athletes have no forums to get their message out off the field. That they're shitting on their employers, and their customers alike with their shameful displays while on they're on the clock is complete bullshit. I'm sure if these assholes got together and planned some event to protest whatever they're on about, it would get plenty of coverage.

    This kneeling shit is just them being assholes.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    Thing is, it's not your choice and it's not the president's choice. It's the NFL's choice. They, and they alone, should decide what should be done to boost their profitability. We can't sit here and pretend we're acting on behalf of the NFL brass when the NFL brass has made it abundantly clear which side they're on.

    When a president suggests a boycott of an industry, however, it's insulting, damaging, and a little beyond the scope of his power. Did the president or vice president do anything illegal? Not at all, so let's not go down the "free speech" road because it has nothing to do with the issue on either side. But leveraging their position to influence the market is ALSO interventionist, and frankly should not be something that libertarians endorse. And what should be most troubling for libertarians is the fact that they're doing it as a response to the very-libertarian ideal of protest as a form of awareness of police violence. For over a century, people who identify as libertarian (or classical liberal, or any of the other variants) have condemned government violence against its citizenry pretty much their #1 priority.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    True, and their customers are making their reaction increasingly clear each week, as attendance, merchandise sales, and TV ratings continue to drop. I'm sure the league, and the owners are just fine with a continued drag on revenue to support whatever the players left wing cause has morphed 8nto this week.

    I'm also sure that the owners and the league will be just fine with financial losses should this spectacle continue long enough. Because that's what a football league is there for, insulting the flag, their customers, and our military.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    I'm surprised that the owners took the stance they did. Especially Goodell, who has shown (and continues to show) that the concept of due process does not register in his brain. So I had assumed he would be on a discipline-the-players kick. And considering that NFL viewership has historically been so right wing, it's also surprising that they stood with the players.

    But I'm sure they all thought of this before they made the very strong and very clear stance that they did. There's no clear causal role that the NFL ratings drop has been the result of kneeling. In fact, there's no evidence at all.

  • SlyJeff||

    If someone every told me that performing an act of patriotism was attached to my job, I would find a different job. Not because I don't engage in acts of patriotism, but because I don't like my behavior being coerced. If you are a football player, your job should be playing football, not standing for the National Anthem.

  • Agile Cyborg||

    The NFL upper enders chose a battle and created a space for dissent that
    loves Che and Fidel while hating American police for their shit?
    Uh? How does this make any goddamn sense?
    American police are largely assholes and their psychopaths
    are WAY too much tolerated by Jack Dunphy BUT NOTHING
    about them comes close to Che's sordid reams of murder, Colin

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin||

    Just... the worst. Why should I have to sit through an anthem that celebrates a country that kills a million or so people every generation?

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    {pushes RJS's grandma out of the path of an oncoming bus}

    RJS: HOW DARE YOU PUSH MY GRANDMA AROUND!

  • Agile Cyborg||

    One notices the Che/Mao chaff across the million veins of notes
    that crisscross the digital divides under a multitudes of finger
    clacks will digress to the failures of the USA and its multitudes
    of obvious FUCKING failures in the Libertarian worldview while
    these same Libertarians fully fucking appreciate the explosive
    HELL far fucking exponential, explosive, continuous, and worthy
    of rejection that lies within the serial killer
    gravitas of Socialism slash Communism over time and beyond.

    Stand through the fucking song. Big deal. Or not. No one gets hauled
    off and shot in the goddamn FUCKING head like Che did. People get
    pissed and yowl about it. No one dies, Stalin.

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot||

    Yich... if there's two things I can't stand its stream of conscious poetry and standing through an anthem of a militaristic country with a gigantic stash of nuclear weapons at its disposal.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Because that Nazi Germany/Imperial Japan thang was just gonna go away on its own.

  • marshaul||

    Well, I mean, we did soundly defeat both parts before we dropped any nukes. Japan was just being sort of like a video game which won't let you win until EVERY enemy building is destroyed, so we got bored and used a cheat code.

  • Telcontar the Wanderer||

    Whether or not the nukes were needed in Japan is an interminable debate, but it has nothing to do with RJS's remarks.

    Our "militaristic" society is responsible for our conventional military operations as much as our nuclear ones- including the confronting and defeating of the Wehrmacht and IJA- and our "gigantic stash of nuclear weapons" exists today because Russia and China aren't one DNC delegation away from giving up theirs. Neither of which is relevant to Hiroshima.

  • Half-Virtue, Half-Vice||

    Yet he gets on his knees to blow Stalin? Kid you are a loser.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    And yet you exalt Soviet Russia's Stalinist period. How ironic.

    You lack even the slightest bit of self awareness, don't you?

  • marshaul||

    And you both lack any understanding of "irony".

  • Tony||

    Seconded on the coke-fueled poetry.

  • Sevo||

    "Why should I have to sit through an anthem that celebrates a country that kills a million or so people every generation?"

    Not murderous enough for you?
    You celebrated nations which killed at least 100,000,000 over two or three generations.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Hey AmSoc, maybe if the monsters you exalt weren't murdering innocent people in the h7ndreds of millions, we wouldn't have to go,out and kill people to stop their tyranny.

    You truly are a soulless subhuman thing.

  • Tony||

    Whataboutism, communist edition.

  • Agile Cyborg||

    Che Guevara would tolerate a Cuban football team disrespecting HIS flag by KILLING the entire GODDAMN team. One by one with a bullet in the head. Which is godawful hideous beyond words....

    But why is Cuban politics and its communism and genocidal hell allowed near the fields of freedom without questioning these agents? People don't die in America for exercising their angst and middle finger to the President and the constitution. They get FUCKING YELLED at. In most shit places on this marble people go to prison for far less and they SHOULD NOT. BUT.... those ideologies should also not corrupt the ideals of America. Freedom to vaunt your ideals is beautiful. But, are your ideals actually beautiful Che Guevara?

  • Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot||

    AC, you are an artiste. Artistes are supposed to discover truth and point out beauty. So why sully yourself making excuses for an ugly reactionary hypocritical bigot? It's beneath you, man.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Go drink Drano AmSoc. Your family probably deserves an early Christmas present.

  • Agile Cyborg||

    Should Che Guevara whose portrait lines the walls of MOST in Hollywood be allowed to enter into the sport and movies of a free nation? An avowed murder sergeant of Castro... a miniature South American Hitler.... while that shitty fuckwiffle Weinstein gets his ass grated on NYT knives the whole shebang loves Cuba- a state that doesn't even have internet because they kill or imprison the future.

  • Jayburd||

    Colon Kapernick's hair does resemble a young Angela B. Davis.

  • Liberty =><= Equality||

    Dear Eddie Kray-Kray,

    You're going to need to virtue-signal harder than that.

    -- orange line cocktail circuit

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    I don't really know what this means, but I know when I see the phrase "virtue signal" a conservative just said it.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    That sounds like proggy talk. Like someth8ng a subversive might say. If so, maybe you would be more comfortable at Slate, Vox, or HuffPo.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    And when someone says "proggy" and thinks being a subversive is a bad thing, I *know* a conservative just said it.

  • Mark22||

    Anybody who actually knows the history of progressivism very much understands why it is a bad thing.

    Of course, whether being a subversive is a bad thing depends on what is being subverted. Personally, I think subverting progressivism, socialism, or respect for the federal government or politicians is something to be encouraged.

  • Mark22||

    I don't really know what this means

    Well, then use Google Scholar to find out: it's a technical term from biology and economics.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    I see no reference to orange line cocktail circuit anywhere in google scholar. I assumed it was something Reason-specific.

  • Cloudbuster||

    This article is sadly confused. It muddles two entirely separate issues.

    1. We treat our politicians like royalty complete with palace guards. This is expensive and un-American, but it is a sin of popular choosing. See what response you get from ordinary citizens of any political stripe if you suggest the President should forego expensive security and fly commercial. "They be assassination our Presidents!"

    This is, or should be, entirely separate from

    2) Pence's political statement. Making political statements and engaging in some amount of political theater is in the job description for a politician. Some of us are appreciative. Nobody notices when Joe Nobody walks out on those overpaid, ignorant babies, but they notice when Pence does it, and he is speaking for a large share of his voter base.

  • SlyJeff||

    I really don't want it to be my elected official's job to protest anything.

  • Cloudbuster||

    This article is sadly confused. It muddles two entirely separate issues.

    1. We treat our politicians like royalty complete with palace guards. This is expensive and un-American, but it is a sin of popular choosing. See what response you get from ordinary citizens of any political stripe if you suggest the President should forego expensive security and fly commercial. "They be assassination our Presidents!"

    This is, or should be, entirely separate from

    2) Pence's political statement. Making political statements and engaging in some amount of political theater is in the job description for a politician. Some of us are appreciative. Nobody notices when Joe Nobody walks out on those overpaid, ignorant babies, but they notice when Pence does it, and he is speaking for a large share of his voter base.

  • Cloudbuster||

    This article is sadly confused. It muddles two entirely separate issues.

    1. We treat our politicians like royalty complete with palace guards. This is expensive and un-American, but it is a sin of popular choosing. See what response you get from ordinary citizens of any political stripe if you suggest the President should forego expensive security and fly commercial. "They be assassination our Presidents!"

    This is, or should be, entirely separate from

    2) Pence's political statement. Making political statements and engaging in some amount of political theater is in the job description for a politician. Some of us are appreciative. Nobody notices when Joe Nobody walks out on those overpaid, ignorant babies, but they notice when Pence does it, and he is speaking for a large share of his voter base.

  • Cloudbuster||

    This article is sadly confused. It muddles two entirely separate issues.

    1. We treat our politicians like royalty complete with palace guards. This is expensive and un-American, but it is a sin of popular choosing. See what response you get from ordinary citizens of any political stripe if you suggest the President should forego expensive security and fly commercial. "They be assassination our Presidents!"

    This is, or should be, entirely separate from

    2) Pence's political statement. Making political statements and engaging in some amount of political theater is in the job description for a politician. Some of us are appreciative. Nobody notices when Joe Nobody walks out on those overpaid, ignorant babies, but they notice when Pence does it, and he is speaking for a large share of his voter base.

  • Cloudbuster||

    God damn squirrels. And that was supposed to be "assassinating."

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Don't fuck with squirrels........

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wTPY8q3Jfts

  • Frank Thorn||

    Cost to tweet an opinion - $0

    Cost to get 200 unpatriotic football players to line up and look bad - $0

    Cost to get the media to show it to everybody for 18 days straight. -$0

    Cost to take thirty million dollars out of the NFL's wallet - $0

    Cost to see them all cave in - Priceless

  • Half-Virtue, Half-Vice||

    The president and the vice president are not American royalty

    That role is for celebrities.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    Same difference.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Truer words have never been spoken!

  • Tony||

    A politician wasting tax dollars to grandstand and cynically flag-wave while shitting on the First Amendment and implying that cops should keep on shooting people with impunity.

    You'd think this would be an easy one for libertarians. Never stop disappointing, reason comment boards.

  • Brian Richard Allen||

    .... )Vice-President) Pence's move isn't about a genuinely-held belief. It's a rank political stunt at the expense of taxpayers, and reveals the self-masturbatory nature of much of what government officials do ....

    Gosh! And here was I believing Transference and Projection to be exclusively-definitive of and to "out," only, sufferers of the Fascissocialist Psychosis.

    I live and learn.

  • Robert Owen||

    Pence attended the game because Indianapolis is his "hometown" and the Colts are his home team. He gave them an opportunity to behave appropriately and the team failed. The outcome was predictable and he knew it, YOU knew it, and I knew it. This controversy will follow its' course as it should. I hope the NFL suffers losses due to allowing the disrespect to continue.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    They haven't suffered losses yet, so I doubt it's going to happen.

  • Wizard4169||

    Um, the Colts did stand for the anthem. Yet Pence disrespected them and Peyton Manning by walking out. It was a cheap stunt, nothing more. Here in Indiana, it's getting some backlash, even from people who would usually be fully on board with the flag-waving brigade.

  • Mark22||

    Posturing and Performance Are What Politics Is

    If this is news to you, you have no business writing for any kind of political publication, even one as tiny and irrelevant as Reason.

  • Mark22||

    But Pence's move isn't about a genuinely-held belief. It's a rank political stunt at the expense of taxpayers, and reveals the self-masturbatory nature of much of what government officials do.

    And how do you know what Pence genuinely believes?

    Personally, I consider these players to be some of the most privileged individuals on the planet, a privilege they enjoy because they are American citizens. They ought to show gratitude and humility towards the flag and the anthem for that. Instead, they are throwing "hissy fits", and Americans are justifiably annoyed.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    How are they privileged? Because america is an entertainment-centric culture?

    The idea that the US -- and that the government in particular -- was the source of their fortune is about the most collectivist thing you've said yet. If the US would get out of the way of markets and allow them to flourish at their own pace, the NFL would probably be even more profitable than it currently is. It's audacious for the president or for any representative of the government to take credit for the NFL's success. It smacks of Al Gore-ism.

  • Think It Through||

    Reading comprehension, it's our friend. That passage doesn't refer to what Pence does or doesn't "genuinely believes." It says that the publicity stunt doesn't relate to it (whatever it may be).

    Unless, of course, Pence "genuinely believes" that publicity stunts are the best way to make a point. And if he does, that's not a compliment.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    Libertarians tend to side with the players on this issue for three reasons.

    1) Employers and employees should be able to freely negotiate the terms of their employment without intervention from third parties. The employers in this case are clearly in agreement with the employees. Free association is a central tenet of libertarianism.
    2) Praying to the gods of the state by chanting in unison to a holy artifact is the height of collectivism.
    3) Most of the players have indicated that they are specifically protesting the abuse of individuals by agents of the state. Libertarians almost universally agree that police brutality exists and is unacceptable. Of course, that doesn't necessarily condone this particular form of protest, but we should at the very least be encouraged that awareness has increased and minds have been changed a hell of a lot more effectively than Gary Johnson or some other libertarian dweeb could have ever dreamed of doing himself.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    "Employers and employees should be able to freely negotiate the terms of their employment without intervention from third parties. The employers in this case are clearly in agreement with the employees. Free association is a central tenet of libertarianism."

    UPDATE:

    The employers have completely reversed their position today. Interestingly, it coincides with the president suggesting that there will be a kneel tax. I rescind point #1 and add points 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 about compulsion through taxation, manipulation of the free market using the tax code, the role of the president in issuing threats to private industry, the dangers of socialism and fascism and how government intervention in industry promotes both, etc.

    Really, all the same arguments I made AGAINST Obama doing things like manipulating the tax code to encourage green initiatives, penalizing (ahem, I mean taxing) people for not carrying health insurance, and paying cash to people to destroy things to "stimulate" the economy (e.g. cash for clunkers) can now be applied to Trump.

  • Wizard4169||

    Praying to the gods of the state by chanting in unison to a holy artifact is the height of collectivism.


    Considering many of the offended are self-proclaimed Christians, I have to point out it also smacks of idolatry.

  • AKdollarbill||

    As is often the case, the article is well said! Will the children in Washington ever grow up? Not unless the people learn to hold them truly accountable in the voting booth. Here's a new perspective for you come lately Libertarians. If you vote Democrat, or Republican, understand that you wasted your vote.

  • JunkScienceIsJunk||

    "Here's a new perspective for you come lately Libertarians. If you vote Democrat, or Republican, understand that you wasted your vote."

    Or if you vote libertarian.

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online