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In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians

Don’t succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

PollPew ResearchIt may be mystifying to conservatives and libertarians that a good chunk of angry response from the left over the Orlando shooting is directed toward conservatives, not just about gun control but over the way they've historically treated gays and lesbians.

It is most obviously true that even to the extent that Christian social conservatism has been hostile to acceptance of gays and lesbians, it has certainly not risen to the horrifying levels of Sunday's attack by Omar Matteen, which he dedicated to the Islamic State. Certainly there have been radical Christians within the United States calling for violence against homosexuals. But their calls to arms have been ignored and are not institutionalized by authorities (with prison terms and even executions) as they frequently are in Muslim-dominated countries.

There has nevertheless been plenty of generalizations about the attitudes of Muslims toward homosexuality that has led some on the right to wonder why people are yelling at them over what happened on Saturday. I agree with conservatives that trying to deflect away from what actually happened to hobby-horse issues like gun control is an awful thing to do.

But a couple of Pew polls might help explain what's going on here. It is true that there is a tremendous amount of hostility to gays and lesbians in countries where Islam is a dominant religion. A Pew poll from 2013 had the vast majority of Muslims in 36 countries overseas declaring that homosexuality is immoral. When I say "vast majority," I mean numbers like 90 percent.

But a recent poll in 2015, also by Pew, shows that American Muslims are much less likely to share this attitude. By comparison, 45 percent of American Muslims approve of homosexuality, and 42 percent of Muslims support same-sex marriage recognition. In both cases, a greater number disapprove of acceptance than approve. But then, so do Evangelical Christians in numbers greater than American Muslims. Only 36 percent of Evangelical Christians approve of homosexuality and only 28 percent of Evangelical Christians support same-sex marriage recognition.

The good news is that support for acceptance of gays and lesbians in America has increased in all faiths between 2007 and 2014. And the point of this post is not necessarily to hold up social conservatives to criticism over an incident they had nothing to do with.

Rather, these numbers help demonstrate why exactly we cannot treat American Muslims as though they're inherently suspicious and prone to jump into extremism and jihads. American Muslims are not necessarily more conservative than many of our country's Christians. There are a whole host of different reasons for this (including the likelihood that Muslims immigrate to the United States in the first place to get away from extreme social conservatism within their own religion). Americans (including gay Americans) who interact regularly with Muslim citizens are probably less likely to see them as being profoundly different. Because they're not—in the United States.

Add to this mix information that Mateen apparently declared allegiance to different Islamist groups who are opposed to ISIS, like Hezbollah. In the end, Mateen may be a vicious garden-variety psychopath that we're treating exotically because he declared a connection to a terrorist group that hates the United States and has called for attacks against it. But in reality he may well be more reminiscent of serial killer Ted Bundy blaming his behavior on porn addiction.

The Islamic State is a violent, terrorist group (I realize that's the mother of all "to be sure" caveats), but it's important not to treat it like it's a virus that people of Muslim faith can just catch. American Muslims don't share the attitudes of the Islamic State, and so treating them with skepticism, generalizing about them, and also expecting some sort of collective responsibility that all Muslims must be held accountable for the policing those who share the faith, doesn't seem any more helpful than more gun control regulations. It's fear-based collectivist attitudes from the right and it reads like so many other historical fears about how various minorities will drag America down. Such generalizations feed a culture war (just like the gun control arguments) rather than examining the roots and potential solutions for the problem.

(Hat tip to former Reason editor Matt Feeney.)

Photo Credit: Lazyllama / Dreamstime.com

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  • AlmightyJB||

    Oh goody

  • Ted S.||

    Yeah, look who paid for a promoted comment.

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    She even paid for 2 upvotes.

    You know, under the new democrat gun control scheme, she'd probably be prohibited from owning guns. Huh.

  • PapayaSF||

    Hi, Mary! We didn't miss you.

  • Deven||

    Umm. So Reason is comparing the most fervent Christians with all Muslims and is trying to make exactly what fucking point?

    This is the type of obfuscation of statistics I'd expect from Salon, this is way beneath this magazine and Shackford should be ashamed of himself.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Everyone knows that Islam is an ideology of violence and repression, what with all the Muslim abortion clinic bombings, all the Muslim "parents groups" pushing for censorship on TV and movies, and those despicable Muslim fundamentalist groups that protest at veterans funerals and gay rallies.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    Is this sarcasm?

  • Microaggressor||

    It feels like a blast from the past.
    It's CRUSADES!!!1 all over again.

  • Suicidy||

    And the crusades were actually a response to 150 years of Islamic aggression against Cristendom.

  • R_Hak||

    Sure moron.

  • Chip Chipperson||

    They weren't? Please, do explain.

  • Eternal Blue Sky||

    The time between the start of the "Muslim Aggression" that prompted the first Crusade and the start of the First Crusade is only 31 years, dumbass.

    Then there's the whole point that the First Crusade decided that, after defeating the Muslim aggressors, that they'd push their luck and invade an entirely unrelated group of Muslims because "muh Jerusalem".

  • Eternal Blue Sky||

    Historical illiteracy!!

    The first Crusades were INITIALLY a response to the Seljuq conquest of the Byzantines. The Seljuqs began their conquests in 1064. The First Crusade was declared in 1095. Meaning it was a response to 31, not 150, years of Muslim aggression.

    The INITIALLY part is rather important, though, because then the Pope decided "Shit, this war is going rather well, let's press our luck and go ALL THE WAY to Jerusalem!!" The Pope decided he wanted to conquer Muslim lands that had been Muslim for over FOUR HUNDRED years.

    Now perhaps you think that that was still justifiable as a result of "Muslim aggression" since the Muslims did conquer the Levant initially... in the 600's... four hundred frickin' years in the past... but if you think that, I expect you would view Native Americans violently murdering Americans and reclaiming "their" land from the United States, since the Muslims ruled the Levant for far longer than the Americans ruled America.

    Logically if you can conquer land on the justification that the current owners conquered it four hundred years in the past, then pretty much anyone can justify conquest (or "reconquest") of the Americas.

  • Eternal Blue Sky||

    If the Crusades had ended Mid-First Crusade, with the liberation of the Byzantines from the Seljuks, that'd be fine and totally justifiable. However the eight-or-nine- depending-on-how-you-count-the-Crusades Crusades that involved invasion and occupation on land that had been Muslim for CENTURIES is hardly justifiable just because some Turks decided too conquer land ruled by people the Catholics considered heretics in the first place.

  • Free Society||

    He thinks that the prevalence of Christian terrorism is roughly on par with that of Islamic terrorism, because he lives in the fanciful land of wishful thinking.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    I don't think I want to visit that place.

  • ||

    Wait, who is bombing a bunch of abortion clinics? Because me and the rest of the world must have missed them, asshole.

    As for censorship, seems to me the progressives are the ones after speech codes.

    And those protestors at funerals...number almost a dozen in the entire country.

  • Free Society||

    And those protestors at funerals...number almost a dozen in the entire country.

    And they're incessantly shat upon by the wider Christian community. The Westboro Baptist Church is the closest thing to an object of universal condemnation that has ever existed. Meanwhile the myriad of Islamic terrorist groups enjoy majority or at least large minority support in nearly every Islamic community in the world.

  • ||

    Fucking Hugh. Jesus, he never ceases to,amaze me with his idiocy. It's almost as if he,goes out of his way to make idiotic statements in an attempt to alienate the rest of us so he can feel the same way here he most likely does in the real world.

  • Free Society||

    I hope he feels alienated out in the real world. Otherwise there's a whole community of people who live with their heads buried in sand.

  • PapayaSF||

    And the Westboro folks are Democrats, by the way.

  • Chip Chipperson||

    The Westboro Baptist Church isn't even really a 'church' at all. It's basically one family, with a grand total of about sixty people. They have no congregation, they don't hold services, and they have no larger following beyond that.

    Frankly I'm not even convinced that they're not a performance art group at this point, or just trolls who exist deliberately to push the bounds of the first amendment.

  • Suicidy||

    There were more gays killed in Orlando yesterday than people at abortion clinics in the US ever. There is no equivalency.

  • ThomasD||

    Persons? Maybe.

    Human beings? About a thousand die every day at US abortion mills.

  • Jickerson||

    As for censorship, seems to me the progressives are the ones after speech codes.

    Lots of people in both camps support various types of censorship. Conservative censorship supporters tend to favor prudish censorship, while the progressives often favor that and "hate speech" laws.

  • Chip Chipperson||

    And there's a substantive difference between a law against hearing the word 'fuck' on television, and one in which entire ideas are rendered verboten and punishable by law.

  • ||

    Hugh, every time I think you couldn't possibly say anything stupider, you go out and totally redeem yourself.

    Congratulations. You're the Lloyd Christmas of political and social commentary.

  • SparktheRevolt||

    Uhh if Muslims only lashed out in this way, there would thousands less dead. I think we'd cheer if the worst Muslims did was protest funerals. Do you realize how moronic this comparison sounds?

  • spqr2008||

    I doubt we'd cheer, since we'd have no basis point for comparison. We'd probably think, "what a bunch of assholes, but it is their right."

  • Eric Bana||

    Interesting.

  • Dallas Tom||

    Here's the problem. Approximately 0% of Christians of any stripe support the execution of homosexuals. What percentage of Muslims do you think oppose the execution of homosexuals?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Certainly not these guys

  • SparktheRevolt||

    And they are universally mocked and reviled--even by Christians. While any negative talk about Islam is simply "Islamophobia"...

  • ||

    How can they want to fuck little boys and execute homosexuals at the same time?
    So hypocritical.
    Stop the compartmentalization.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    I bet you could find 2% of American Christian supporting offing teh geyz. But even as someone who is, for all practical purposes, an atheist in a predominantly Christian country, I find it laughable to pretend that modern Islam and modern Christianity are remotely comparable. I don't even want to guess what percentage of Muslims in America think gays should be stoned, tough I'd guess it's double or triple easy. Possibly worse. I'm pretty sure a lot of that is culture rather than only religion, though.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    Citation sorely needed here.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    There's no citation needed. There was no claim of a statement of fact nor pretending this was anything but a guess. If I make a statement affirming something is a fact, I'll happily provide a citation for you.

  • Hammer of liberty||

    Try .000002%. Maybe

  • Auralae||

  • ||

    I made this comment earlier, but will repeat it here, sorry. When I was a kid growing up, surrounded by Baptists fundamentalists, I often heard it preached and echoed that if you're a homosexual, you're going to hell. So you need to get saved and stop being gay. I NEVER once, not ever, heard one person say that gays should be killed or even harmed in any way. And that was in the dark ages, seriously. When is the last time Christians were like that? 500 years ago? Someone needs to pull their head out.

  • Rasilio||

    I have several in my family.

    My father once told me if he had the power he would execute all the gays himself and not in some cold impersonal way but with his bare hands.

    That said while he identifies as a Christian his anti gay animus is utterly separated from whatever passes for religious beliefs in his head and to say he has mental illness issues is a massive understatement, I mean he also believes that guinea pigs are genetically engineered animals created in CIA labs and that China has 3 times as many warships as we have including more aircraft carriers.

    Still he is not the only one in my family who believes that homosexuality is a death penalty offense.

  • ||

    Good grief man, I was around some real bigots in my youth and I never heard anyone talk like that. They just make bigoted slurs and jokes. If I would have heard anyone talking about murdering people, I would have stayed the fuck away from them one way or other.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Well, except for that stuff about the guinea pigs. We all know that's true.

  • ||

    Oh yeah, the hamsters.

  • Rasilio||

    Lol I mostly do.

    I mean they are my family so I love them and all but I can only tolerate being in their presence for short periods of time

  • AblueSilkworm||

    That's not a dig at Christians, believe it or not. People of all stripes support crazy things in surprisingly large numbers and my off the cuff guess was meant to say that American Christians are, by and large, fairly uncrazy by the standards of our species.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    You never heard that gays should be rounded up and thrown in jail or something similar? Granted, that's a far cry from saying "hang'em", but I've heard they should be jailed for beaten up before.

  • AlexInCT||

    I have heard plenty of idiots say all manner of nasty shit, but I have seen only a particular stripe of people act on it...

  • Suicidy||

    So you like your gays well hung then?

  • AblueSilkworm||

    Doesn't everyone?

  • Calidissident||

    While I doubt there's been (at least in recent decades) a significant portion of the population in favor of the death penalty for homesexuality, as you can see from Gallup's historical polling, it wasn't very long ago that more people were in favor of homosexuality being illegal than legal (a brief period in the early 2000s, and before the late 90s it was pretty even for about 20 years excluding the late 80s when the AIDS crisis presumably made people more inclined to outlaw it), and even today more than a quarter of the country feels that way. If you limited things to certain relevant subsets (Republicans, conservatives, evangelical Christians, etc. as well as Muslims) you could get significantly higher numbers.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/165.....ights.aspx

  • AblueSilkworm||

    Yup. And if 28% of Americans today think homosexuality should be illegal (keep in mind what that actually means in practice: they should be fined or jailed for having sexual relations with people of the same sex) would be truly shocked if 5-10% of those people thought the penalty should be more severe than that? Keeping in mind that religion of all stripes probably correlates more highly with people who think homosexuality should be banned by law. From my personal experience at least, I've never heard a non religious person make any statement to this effect at all.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    Keep in mind though, these numbers are very low. 37% of Americans believe in haunted fucking houses. I don't find it surprising if a couple of percentage points of any group believe in any horrific or ridiculous thing.

  • pronomian||

    And in Michigan it's against the law to dance to the Star spangled banner.

  • Cloudbuster||

    Because that song is just undanceable. Nobody wants to see that.

  • Duke||

    That's because we now live in what Thornton Mellon referred to as "fantasy land."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

  • Ornithorhynchus||

    Approximately 0% of Christians of any stripe support the execution of homosexuals

    Didn't the overwhelmingly Christian nation of Uganda try to introduce the death penalty for homosexuality a few years ago?

  • R_Hak||

    Yeah, Christians just want to play with little boys...

  • colorblindkid||

    The Evangelical sample size was 8,593. There were 25,048 Christians overall and 847 Jews. The Muslim sample size was 237.

  • Libertymike||

    What type of journalist / blogger would fail to include this information?

    In fact, what type of journalist / blogger would fail to emphasize that disparity in sample size?

  • mashed potatoes||

    yeah, this is bullshit. and they broke out different Christian sects but failed to identify which Muslims they were polling.. Lebanese? Persians that fled the Ayatollah? Shia, sunni?

    Reason, not all Muslims are the same.

  • ||

    I wonder if it's true that 99% of Afghan immigrants in the US, support Shariah. Shariah in Afghanistan prescribes the death penalty for homosexuality.

  • R_Hak||

    It's false.

  • Kwix||

    I know!! The Joos were over represented!!
    Should have been closer to 670 not 847!
    Statistically invalid! Must ignore at all costs!!

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    237?

    That's barely enough for 3 mayrtrs!

  • Calidissident||

    Is it really surprising that there were a lot more evangelicals sampled? Muslims are less than 1% of the population. It's still outside the margin of error

  • ThomasD||

    IOW the whole damn comparison is not remotely statistically valid.

    Way to go REASON!

  • Jake Stone||

    Everybody repeat after me: no one cares about gay marriage. Gays can get married whenever they want, as many times as they want and no one will bat an eyelash. Those who have a p[roblem with it, have a problem witg SAME SEX marriage.


    Big pet peeve of mine.

  • Microaggressor||

    You won't be getting any gay cake with this attitude.

  • Scarecrow & WoodChipper Repair||

    Let me guess -- you're a damned grammar nazi too.

    Language is what it is. Complaining about common usage which upsets your apple cart is just pedantry.

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Yeah, but the Evangelical Muslims, now that's a completely different critter.

  • __Warren__||

    But based on casualty rates who do I need to worry about more?

    Can we get some actuarial tables up in this bitch?

  • ||

    Shut the fuck up, yokel. There's spin to do!

  • __Warren__||

    No matter how many times you ask I'm not going to spin class with you.

  • ||

    People in spin classes are going nowhere.

  • __Warren__||

    Once a loooong time ago I was working as a messenger and dropped off something at one of the first spin classes. The receptionist insisted that hat I was seeing was not people on "stationery" bikes bit rather they were "spin cycles". It was only later when the craze popped up in the news that I realized I had seen the larval stage of a new exercise fad.

  • ||

    According to shreek, if you're in Dogdick, Georgia, where he lives, you cannot even go outside without being gang raped by roving bands of Christian taliban.

  • __Warren__||

    Which is why he lives there.

  • ||

    He likes it, no?

  • Suicidy||

    He keeps a flashlight handy for when he is denied his beloved reacharounds.

  • SIV||

    "This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn. See uh, this here river don't go nowhere near Aintry."

  • Bill Dalasio||

    There has nevertheless been plenty of generalizations about the attitudes of Muslims toward homosexuality that has led some on the right to wonder why people are yelling at them over what happened on Saturday.

    And that "some on the right" are absolutely right to think blaming them for the behavior of someone of a different religion is beyond the textbook definition of retarded. Hell, it would be moronic to blame all conservatives for the attack even if it had been a white, Christian, male. Assigning collective guilt isn't exactly the hallmark of a particularly bright person. But, if someone's not even going to bother connecting it to the same religion, I think we can write that person off as brain dead.

  • Harvard||

    But you see Bill, that would be a missed opportunity to gig people of Christian faith.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    Yup.

  • John||

    If say 25% of conservatives said that killing guys was justified and three weeks before it happened a conservative talk show host had come to Orlando and gave a speech explaining why killing gays was justified, would it be "retarded" to say conservatism had a violence and gay problem? Would it be retarded to expect conservatives to kick the people who were saying it was okay to murder gays out of the movement or have the rest of us assume they support that?

    Really? That would be your attitude under those conditions. Fat chance.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    John, you really aren't making any sense here. I specifically said "it would be moronic to blame all conservatives for the attack even if it had been a white, Christian, male.". So, of course where I stand is clear.

    Are you seriously trying to argue that my position is wrong because it was insufficiently collectivist? Or do you not even bother to read stuff before commenting?

  • John||

    It depends on what you mean by "blame". Would you try them for murder? No. But would you consider them to support this shit if they made no effort to clean the movement up and disassociate themselves from it? Damn straight you would.

    You keep acting like just because you are not responsible for the murders, the murders don't reflect on the religion and the people who practice it. No, it doesn't work that way.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Well, thank you for self-identifying as a collectivist.

    I guess because some men rape women, you agree with the feminists that all men are to blame.

    Or that all white people are responsible for slavery. .

    John, you make a really good progressive.

  • PapayaSF||

    Nonsense. It's not "collectivist" to note that: 1) Muslims are supposed to believe that the Koran is the perfect, eternal word of Allah, and 2) The Koran says the penalty for homosexuality is death.

    It's not a coincidence that nine Islamic countries have that law. It's 100% accurate sharia law. ISIS is not some outlier, they are going strictly "by the book."

    The degree to which any Muslim does not believe that, he or she is not a true Muslim. Muslims have to believe that the Koran is Allah's word, in a far more strict sense than Christians have to believe in the Bible. (It has to do with translations, inspired by God vs. dictated from Allah, multiple authors vs. one author.)

  • Bill Dalasio||

    And yet millions of Muslims don't go around killing gay people and I've no doubt they'd still consider themselves good Muslims. Glad to know you their minds so much better than they do.

  • Suicidy||

    Nor is it collectivist to point out that Islam is a vile, primitive, bloodthirsty death cult.

  • John||

    Thank you for identifying yourself as an idiot Bill. By your logic the Holocaust doesn't reflect on fascism and the Killing Fields don't reflect on Communism. Those things just sort of happened I guess.

    What is there to say to that? Are you really that stupid? Do you really think "not being a collectivist" means ideology is never responsible for actions or that movements or religions can never be associated with the actions of their followers?

    God Damn Bill, how do you feed yourself?

  • SIV||

    Somebody does it for him, through a tube.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    No, SIV, your mother peels my grapes and feeds them to me. Right before servicing me.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Do you really think "not being a collectivist" means ideology is never responsible for actions or that movements or religions can never be associated with the actions of their followers?

    No, unlike you, I can say that ideologies have problems without holding every adherent to that ideology guilty of the sins some commit in the name of that ideology. You, yourself said "But would you consider them to support this shit...". You're making your stance pretty clear here. You're holding every Muslim responsible, regardless of whether they personally support it or not. I guess since all Baptists don't give up their religion, they all must be in bed with the Westboro Baptist Church.

  • John||

    No I am not. I am assuming they support it until they show me otherwise. If someone told you they were a Nazi would you not assume they hated Jews?

    Just stop it Bill. Even I am starting to feel sorry for you.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    So if a minority of people who adhere to an ideology behave a certain way, you expect the majority to prove they don't support that behavior.

    John, in addition to being really bad at English, it's clear you're really bad at math.

  • PapayaSF||

    Bill, if ideology X says: "To be a member of ideology X, you must believe everything that's in the Book of Ideology X," why is it "collectivist" to say: "Members of ideology X believe what it says in the Book of Ideology X"?

    And please, analogies with the Bible or Marx or whatever are inapt. The Koran is supposedly Allah's direct, perfect, eternal word, in the language He speaks. There is not much room for interpretation.

  • JWW||

    The cognitive dissonance of blaming a group that the shooter is not a member of for the shooting and not blaming a group that he is a member of for it has reached an insane level.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    I don't really get how singling out a fairly fundamentalist group (evangelicals) within christianity and then comparing that with the views of relatively liberalized muslims is apples-to-apples.

  • roversaurus||

    That's what I came to say.
    They got a sub-group and compared it to a different group.
    The compounded that with some *serious* sample size differences. You would almost think they went looking for the data in order to write the story they wanted to write?
    You would almost think they had some sort of preconceived notion about a group of people they disliked and wanted to promote that? I wonder if there is a pejorative word we could use to describe that?

  • R C Dean||

    Dammit! You people are making my comments before me!

  • Illocust||

    This was nearly exactly what I came to say. They are essentially saying that fundamentalist religious people are more like to by anti-gay marriage than religious people in general. Duh, no shit, this says nothing about radical Islam.

  • Calidissident||

    It's because strongly anti-Muslim (and/or anti-Islam) rhetoric tends to come most often from evangelical Christians and/or those politically aligned with them. Also, Muslims are a small group in the US, so unless the study is specifically about American Muslims (which this one wasn't) it's hard to get enough data to have meaningful crosstabs for the different sects within it.

  • Drake||

    Narratives are delicate things. They must be painstakingly crafted from the most carefully selected data, then barreled-aged in a cellar at the correct temperature. Only when they tell the exact story the author was seeking should they then be swirled in a glass and sampled.

    The comment dicks here like to take all the fun out of it by pointing out that we are being served a glass of fresh piss.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Well said Scott!

  • the_decadents||

    The clear problem with this is that there's no attempt to break down the American Muslim population to separate orthodox believers from those less so.

    You could go to the numbers and say, "American Muslims are twice as tolerant as American Mormons, and you know how nice they are..."

  • Free Society||

    As for sub-groups that actually matter... let me just say that children are our future.

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/.....df#page=60

    26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

    Motivaction Survey (2014): 80% of young Dutch Muslims see nothing wrong with Holy War against non-believers. Most verbalized support for pro-Islamic State fighters.
    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/a.....-research/

  • ||

    But you didn't tell us how many Christians believe all those things. I bet it's higher!

  • Free Society||

    At least as of 2007, 1 in 5 Muslims under 30 that you walk past on the street would consider a suicide bombing to be a good thing. But at least they're like totally down with gay marriage and stuff.

  • SIV||

    "Vacation Bible Suicide Bomber School"

  • Suicidy||

    Now THAT is a good way to make one's vocation into a vacation.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    This is fucking incredible. The number of evangelicals that are against gay marriage ~ the number of young American muslims that think suicide bombers are justified.

    HEAR THAT SCOTT?

  • Stormy Dragon||

    How many American Christians support drone attacks?

  • ||

    You mean neocons? Are those all christian fundies? I think you are confused.

  • ||

    The page you are looking for falls outside of the margin of error.

    Nice cite.

  • Calidissident||

    The link gave an error message. On this topic, are there any polls that give more specific data on when people consider suicide bombings justified? I think in certain instances they could be justified, but that doesn't mean I think they are all or most of the time in practice. Just as I think the atomic bombings of Japan in WW2 were justified even though I think using nukes are not called for 99% of the time. Without more breakdown the numbers don't necessarily say much.

  • ||

    That's because they are all pedeophiles who like to bang little boys. John told me so.

  • grrizzly||

    No, just their prophet. And he preferred girls.

  • John||

    Yes 40 percent of American Muslims support gay marriage. I guess that makes the ones who think it should be punishable by death not matter or something.

    How do you go through life being this dumb Hazel? It must be hard.

  • John||

    That is great Scott. Lets take this poll on its face. We know that American Muslims are not that hostile to gays and that foreign Muslims often are very hostile. So, how exactly does that make Muslim immigration a good idea again?

  • Suicidy||

    Because........because.........open borders are good! No matter what! Diversity and stuff!

  • Carolina Curmudgeon||

    This is not a fair comparison (evangelical Christians -- the most conservative and most anti-gay of all Christians -- compared with all American Muslims). I'm surprised to see such sloppy thinking at reason.com. And as another commenter has already noted, there is also the question about beliefs about what actions are appropriate. That is -- what percentage of the members of these different groups believe that killing someone who is homosexual is acceptable?

  • R C Dean||

    I'm surprised to see such sloppy thinking at reason.com.

    At one time, I would have also been surprised.

  • JWW||

    Progtarians gotta prog.

  • Calidissident||

    The reason for the comparison is that evangelical and other conservative Christians tend to be the most strongly anti-Muslim and/or anti-Islam.

  • JWW||

    And yet not only do they not kill gays, they don't even kill the Muslims either.

  • ||

    This,story is the political and journalistic equivalent of this dude.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    I think it was a thinly veiled attempt to lend credence to that Chris Strangio bonehead.

  • The Fusionist||

    Numero uno, I thought the debate was about whether to admit *new* immigrants from those countries with the 90% gay-bashing percentages, not whether to deport American Muslims who (tautologically) are *already here.*

    Numero two-o, the question about "allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally" is fairly vague. If you mean should it be legal to hold their commitment ceremonies and then live together as adult and adult on their own property, boning in private and voluntarily and with no risk of disease, then I would say yes, it *should* be legal.

    But these results will of course be interpreted to mean that everyone who says yes thinks the government should be giving its Good Housekeeping seal of approval to same-sex couples, requiring employers to treat them as married for purposes of marriage benefits, force bakers to bake for them, and so on and so on.

  • DaveH||

    What struck me as curious in this story is the phrase "approve of homosexuality." Homosexuality is a fact, not subject to approval or disapproval. The idea of approval smuggles in the presupposition that it is a choice, and therefore subject to morality.

  • JWW||

    Yeah because gender is a choice, gayness isn't. ;-)

  • Suicidy||

    Did you mean to say 'smuggle' or 'snuggle'.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Only if you start with the assumption that you can only approve/disapprove of choices, and that only choices are subject to morality.

  • KB Check Release||

    Actually Dave, who you have sex with is 100% a choice.

  • __Warren__||

    We should force all Muslims to get gay married! Since it's not likely they'd be willing to kill themselves over some issue.

  • AlexInCT||

    Uhm, there are plenty of them that are way cool with killing themselves as long as they kill other in the process...

  • Clint Eastwoodchipper||

    This thread ought to be a hoot.

  • Heedless||

    This is fantastically stupid.

    The question is not "Who doesn't like gays?". The question is "Who is willing to support or commit violence against gays, apostates, abortion providers, or Salman Rushdie?"

    And on the second question, Muslims support and commit violence at a far greater rate than Evangelicals.

  • Suicidy||

    Are you sure? What about all those evangelical suicide bombers?

  • John||

    This is just sorry reasoning for a lot reasons, many listed above. One other thing is that the poll never asks what the 52% of Muslims who don't support gay marriage actually think about gays. I don't know if Scott is this dumb or this dishonest, but he seems to assume that you can judge everyone who rejects gay marriage the same. No, the guy who think homosexuality should be illegal and the guy who thinks it should be legal but doesn't like gay marriage will answer the questions in this poll the same way. Scott assumes Christians who object to gay marriage are no different and hold no different views than Muslims who do. Otherwise, how can he fairly claim that "American Muslims are more accepting of gays than some Christians"? Maybe but I seriously doubt it.

    Lets run a poll of how many people in each faith think homosexuality should be illegal and how many think it should be punishable by death. Then get back to me about how tolerant Muslims are of gays.

  • Suicidy||

    This whole thing just smacks of progtardery.

  • ||

    Ok, I'm going to have to point this out. It is one thing to say you 'disapprove' of gays. It is quite another thing to walk into a bar and slaughter 50 of them in the name of your religion.

    Islam is not just a religion. It has a legal system named Shariah. Shariah says that for homosexuality, the penalty is death.

    What's the name of that Christian legal system that prescribes death for gays and that a good percentage of Christians support?

    I'm just asking.

    Also, when is the last time a Christian shot up or bombed out a place while screaming 'God is great'?

    I'm just asking.

    I want all of the facts to come out here.

  • John||

    Scott wants us to assume that anyone who disapproves of gays is on the same moral level as someone who thinks killing them is justified. And that is frankly disgusting. There is no other way to characterize it.

    It doesn't surprise me at all that 42% of American Muslims support gay marriage. A lot of Muslims are secular Muslims in name only. That isn't the 42% we should be worried about.

  • JWW||

    Shit it's worse than that.

    The progtards line is that Christians are guilty for these killings because gay wedding cakes, and Muslims aren't guilty because Islamophobia!!!

  • Suicidy||

    Which backs up my contention that we need to euthanize the progtards.

  • ||

    Also, when is the last time a Christian shot up or bombed out a place while screaming 'God is great'?

    I can't offhand name the last time (it was pretty recently) but most famously, Sabra and Shatila. Of course, the Jews got the blame.

  • ||

    OK, with a quick look:

    Massacres and expulsions of Muslims in Central African Republic (2014)
    Massacres and gang rapes of Hindus in Tripura (2000- present)
    Massacres of Hindus and animists in Naga (1963-2015)
    Slaughters and forced conversions of Hindus in Assam (2009)
    Massacres, torture, and mass child-rapes in Uganda (2005)
    And of course the fringe attacks in the US, which are rare but no rarer than Muslim attacks in the US.

  • Hammer of liberty||

    Articles are derpier than usual today.

  • AlmightyJB||

    People always seem to see these things coming....

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-.....oter-named

  • John||

    Yeah, everyone "saw it coming" after it happened. The dots have this amazing way of connecting themselves after the event you were trying to predict has happened.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Investigated by FBI multiple times. Coworker raised flags to security company with DHS contracts:

    "A former colleague told the New York Times on Sunday he had complained to the company several times about Mateen, who he said "talked about killing people all the time".

    "I complained multiple times that he was dangerous, that he didn't like blacks, women, lesbians and Jews," Daniel Gilroy, a former Fort Pierce police officer, said.

    "You meet bigots but he was above and beyond. He was always angry, sweating, just angry at the world."

    Wife (who he beat over dirty laundry) knows he's a fucking loon:

    "A few months after we were married I saw his instability, I saw his bipolar, and he would get mad out of nowhere, and that's when I started worrying about my safety," Yusifiy said."

    "She said Mateen, who she divorced in 2011, had aspired to be a police officer was "mentally unstable and mentally ill [and] obviously disturbed, deeply, and traumatised"."

  • ||

    What this means is that we should make it tougher for non-religious white anarchists to get guns and we need to profile 90 year old grannies. That will show them.

  • Suicidy||

    If only the Scarlet Witch had said "No more muslims" on 'M Day'.

  • ||

    Coworker raised flags to security company with DHS contracts:

    The responsible guy at DHS was too busy posting on the internet to notice.

  • Bra Ket||

    What exactly does it mean to "approve of homosexuality"? Kinda like approving of left-handedness or obesity?

    Where was that stat actually found anyway?

    By the way: insert obligatory mention of Obama's previously-expressed disapproval of gay marriage.

  • Juice||

    Once upon a time, teachers (especially nuns) did not approve of left handedness.

    And yeah, I disapprove of obesity.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    And yeah, I disapprove of obesity.

    Well, that's a high-falutin' way to say "NO FAT CHICKS!"

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    Mary as the top comment. What a world.

  • __Warren__||

    JB is Mary?

  • ||

    It sounds like shreek to me. Who exactly chooses these 'top comments'?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Hopefully he meant the promoted comment:) lol

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    That's the one.

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    No there is a spot right before the comments actually start that has a "top comment" This one is from Kizone Kaprow and attack several of the commentariat by name.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Oh yeah, that's definitely Mary.

  • ||

    I somehow feel proud to be mentioned in that comment.

  • R C Dean||

    Me too.

    Radicalized Narcissists, unite!

  • John||

    She is Renegade. She has been lurking around for a while. She must be off her meds again. Crazy fucking bitch.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians
    Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

    Luckily, no one listens to evangelicals either.

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

    Except when they do.

  • John||

    I don't know about you, but knowing that 42% of American Muslims support gay marriage will give me a totally different perspective on that Jihadist who murders me.

  • Free Society||

    I don't see how it's relevant that 42% of American Muslims support gay marriage if it's irrelevant that 10% of native born American-Muslims look upon Al-Qaeda favorably. Or that 38% of Muslim-Americans say Islamic State (ISIS) beliefs are Islamic or correct.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    The question that I don't see answered is, whose god hates fags more?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Probably whoever's God is the gayest.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    They get to all claim that since they all worship the Gawd of Abraham.

    Silly prophets are for losers.

  • Sir Digby Chicken Caesar||

    Silly prophets are for losers.

    Must have something to do with bets...

  • Suicidy||

    I have no animus towards fanny bandits. I assume that the root cause of homosexuality will be discovered. Then it will be a short trip to a cure. Once it's screened out and corrected in neonatal testing, it will be a non-issue as the existing gays run their natural course.

  • John||

    It is just bizarre. It really is. How does this not make him angry and at least not want to be the guy who does the "but Muslims are really okay" articles?

  • Microaggressor||

    I kind of expected this sort of self loathing from Tony, but not Shackford. These statistics reflect nothing but pure wishful thinking.

  • Suicidy||

    Best to just put them down. Like all progtards.

  • Free Society||

    It is just bizarre. It really is. How does this not make him angry and at least not want to be the guy who does the "but Muslims are really okay" articles?

    And I bet Shackford is like a few of the local commentarians who are angrily confused about why the word "cuck" is applied to them.

  • ||

    Christians believe in Rule of law. Fortunately Bible for them is guide to life not for state. Islamists believe in Rule of Sharia for them Koran is a guide to state, life, and universe.

    A faithful Muslim will toss the US constitute at the first opportunity. God fearing Christians created US constitution to large extend and died defending it.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Absurd. Madison and Jefferson wrote most of the Constitution and neither were Christian.

  • Free Society||

    Jefferson didn't write the constitution. But don't let that stop you from making a superduper meaningful point.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I know but he wrote the DoI and is generally considered one of the most important founders -- AND he left a long string of anti-Christian writings.

    You generally have to tell TEAM RED idiots those facts. Here, not so much.

  • John||

    No. Madison and Hamilton wrote most of the Constitution. Jefferson didn't write much of any of it. And whatever their beliefs, they most certainly bought into Christian morality.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    "Christian morality"? Just shut up, John. No one believes your bullshit.

    Christian morality runs the gamut from ancient deplorable smiting and torture to just sad cross-hangings for the "Father".

  • John||

    You are a fucking moron. You are fun to screw with sometimes but you cannot be engaged in any serious discussion.

  • Suicidy||

    PB, you are a prime example of why progtards require systematic euthanization.

    And when the fuck are you going to pay up?

  • Episteme||

    Jefferson not only didn't write any of the Constitution, he was out of the country for the whole period. He missed the debates on reforming/replacing the Articles of Confederation, the Constitutional Convention, the state ratifying conventions, and even the early Congressional debates on what became the Bill of Rights (recall that, while Jefferson remained in France, John Jay was Acting Secretary of State for the first few months of Washington's Administration).

    While Madison's actual beliefs are debated, his actual training was primarily in divinity. Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and James Wilson – the other main authors and subsequently writers alongside Madison of The Federalist Papers – were fairly-conventional Anglicans. The only real doubt of Hamilton's religion (who is documented to have asked for and received Anglican last rites and communion on his deathbed), is whether he might have been Jewish in his youth (we know that he at least was raised by a Jewish step-father and attended Jewish schools on St. Croix); some of the most interesting letters that I've seen between friends-turned-rivals Hamilton and Madison were actually a meant to be secret missives and so written in Hebrew.

  • ThomasD||

    Madison was also clearly a firm believer in natural rights as understood at the time, making him at minimum a deist.

  • ThomasD||

    Madison also believed that States had the power to nullify Federal laws they did not like.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    We have plenty of Wahabi Christians here in Georgia and they don't make women wear a burqa/hajib. Point for he Turbos!

  • ||

    They do make shreek wear a burqua though, cause he ugly.

  • ||

    Sheeks still mad at me because I revealed his AddictionMyth sock.

  • Sir Digby Chicken Caesar||

    We have plenty of Wahabi Christians here in Georgia

    I do wonder when they are going to burn down his hut and gas him into oblivion....

  • Suicidy||

    IF so, I pray for your swift end. One can only hope it will be prolonged, and agonizing.

  • Uncle Jay||

    RE: In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians
    Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

    If only we can keep those damn Evangelical Christians from shooting innocent people instead of those peaceful fundamentalist Muslims, then we'll have something good going on here.
    The best bet is to disarm the unwashed masses and put your faith in our socialist slavers.
    This way only The State and violent criminals will have guns.
    Disarming law abiding citizens is always a good idea.
    Just ask any survivor of the Nazi death camps.

  • R C Dean||

    Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

    "Don't succumb to the fear" is trivially good advice.

    The real question isn't (as implied) "is every single Muslim a time bomb waiting to explode". The real question is more like "How do we keep the occasional Muslim time bomb from exploding all over us."

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Quick Peanut poll:

    Should the President ONLY call out only "Islamic terrorism"? Or should he call out Christian terrorism - and in general specify the religion of the perp each time?

    I really want your opinions!

  • ||

    Besides you getting your daily butt rape by the roving bands of Christian Taliban, no one has reported any Christian terrorist attacks.

    Obama: Uh, we have to keep in mind, uh, if if if if if if if if if if if.. uh, if if if if if if if if if if if if if.. uh... these Christians keep rapin poor shreeky down there in Dogdick, we're uhh, we're going to need to ... uhh .... we're going to need to have a conversation.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Eric Rudolf, Paul Hill, dozens of others.

    Not that I lose any sleep.

  • John||

    Rudoph was 20 years ago you half wit.

  • Suicidy||

    John, calling PB a half wit is an insult to all the quarter wits.

  • Suicidy||

    Maybe you would have Obama condemn the St. Valentine's massacre as well? Stupid shitbag.

  • ThomasD||

    Obama needs to apologize for the Haymarket bombing.

  • spqr2008||

    Exactly. Where do you think Bill Ayers got his inspiration from? And since Ayers was Obama's mentor, QED.

  • OldMexican Trained Philosopher||

    Re: Peter Caca,

    Should the President ONLY call out only "Islamic terrorism"?


    I swear I will stop caring either way the very moment the president and his band of merry Marxians stop using tragedies like this to advocate for taking away people's rights, i.e. the right to self-defense by armed means.

    in general specify the religion of the perp each time?


    If the guy SAID he was motivated by religious motives or because he swore allegiance to ISIS, then it is imperative the press and the authorities tell the truth about it. Why hide it?

    But if his or her religious affiliation had nothing to do with his or her motives, then the knowledge becomes trivial.

    I really want your opinions!


    For opinions, go to a pub. We only provide logical arguments.

  • JWW||

    What's really interesting is that if he shooter thought he was a woman instead of a man the press would be all over making sure she was referred to with he right pronoun.

    But saying he's loyal to ISIS, well, how can we really be sure?

  • Free Society||

    He probably should bring up the issue of Christian terrorism, but then he'll also need to speak out against the Buddhist conspiracy to fluoridate our water, Taoist leprechaun sex trafficking and Zoroastrian unicorn poaching.

  • __Warren__||

    Zoroastrian unicorn poaching

    If the Zoroastrians want to keep their unicorns from being poached then they should work harder at guarding them.

    Anyway what I do in my free time is my business, not Obama's.

  • Heedless||

    I prefer my unicorns deep fried.

  • R C Dean||

    The President should call out the ideological cause of each terrorist attack.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    That would be like showing the guy that runs onto the field with his pants down on TV each time. That is what they want.

    Isn't killing they enough? He killed that US Taliban jackass in Yemen and the Orange Idiotrump prefers to name call?

  • ||

    Agreed, if there is one. That seems to be sort of an important detail.

    The entire 'hate' thing is stupid. When does someone commit a terrorists act because they love the people they're attacking.

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    Are you watching the market, bro?

    I dumped at 3.70 a few weeks ago, but I'm buying back in this week.

  • AlmightyJB||

    What are you buying?

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    See below

  • AlmightyJB||

    From the chart, looks like that was a good move:)

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    It's risky. I might be buying back in slightly early, but I don't want to miss the boat.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    No, I forgot the symbol. Was it CLVLY? It is a strange five character one.

    You're telling me you have perfect timing? I would not be surprised if you are the only buyer/seller that it follows your exact sentiment.

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    I was about 50/50 CLVLY and CLVLF. I prefer the common shares to the ADR so I can vote them. I've talked to some of the larger shareholders, and we are all in agreement that a minor change in leadership is in order. The PR guy sucks, and he's not fighting for appropriate pricing in each of the EU member states.

    In re: timimg
    Don't do OTC if you don't know what you're doing. 40+ million shares outstanding, and 99% of that is people who are long, 10 years or more. A lot of the volume is Market Makers like Knight, and their algorithm sucks. It's very easy to beat. If you put in your order correctly, they'll even short to you when the price is going up, and then they'll cover their all of their shorts before the monthly FINRA report is due.

    I didn't dump to make a profit. I did it to accumulate even more shares.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    Personally? I think he should start blaming christians for it. That makes the most sense to me.

  • AlmightyJB||

  • Free Society||

    I'm willing to concede that every member of ISIS is a nutjob, maybe even a nutcase.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Every member of ISIS is no doubt a sociopath. I think more specifically though, most mass shooters have a serious malfunction of the brain. Based on what this latest assholes coworker and wife say about him he seems to fit that profile as well.

  • OldMexican Trained Philosopher||

    It is not like Secularism is a bed of roses for da gays, either

    "Under Lenin, homosexuality was treated as a disease that needed to be cured and that attitude prevailed until well into the 90's. Many individuals who were accused of homosexuality were forcibly treated at psychiatric hospitals rather than imprisoned."

  • ||

    The left here just haven't got to that point yet. They need to get full power first and then they'll get their Lenin on, and some Stalin, and some Mao, and some Pol Pot, for the children of course.

  • R C Dean||

    I wonder what our native Progressives, of eugenics and Jim Crow fame, thought about homosexuality.

  • Juice||

    I wouldn't call Soviet communism "secularism."

  • Voros McCracken||

  • AlmightyJB||

  • Broswater||

    Well, first of all, stated preference vs revealed preference. So who really knows ? The poll asked if they approve of gay marriage. It could very well be that 64% of Evangelical oppose gay marriage and think they should be put to death and that 52% of Muslims oppose gay marriage but don't think the gays should be killed. Or the complete opposite, the poll doesn't tell. It could also be interpreted as 42% of Muslims really don't care if the Christians allow gays to be married in their churches, but not in their mosques. We don't know.

    And can we please stop switching the bait? The guy stated his allegiance to some form of Muslim extreme faith or another, it's not interpretation of some lunatic's writing at this point. The Quran is full of hateful and anti-homosexual rhetoric, can we stop digging our heads in the sand and admit it's a hateful, bigoted, retarded religion? I'm not talking about banning a religion or stopping immigration, but can we just have a honest discussion about it and stop blaming something totally irrelevant in order to score cheap political point? I'm not asking Reason to go all Breitbart but didn't this magazine used to pride itself in its intellectual honesty?

    When there is an evangelical person bombing an abortion clinic we rightfully blame the rhetoric, why is it so hard to do the same for Islam ? All I see is the low expectation of bigotry ; they are retards, not their faults. Here, blame Evangelicals instead.

  • John||

    All of that. People keep wanting to make this some senseless tragedy. No, it is a totally sensible tragedy. It was done furtherance of a specific religion and ideology. This isn't the same as some psychotic shooting up a grade school because he thinks the world is a video game.

  • Broswater||

    The worst part to me is that yeah, we can go around not addressing the issue of severe mental illness, go "I can't hear you!" and hope that there won't be another school shooting because some guy was psychotic. It might go away. He was, let's hope, one out of a few millions.

    But we cannot go without addressing the fact that one religion, with billions of followers, believe they should kill other people and that they are rightful in doing it. This will come back, just a matter of time, it has been happening for the last 15 years.

    The first step is facing it. And by playing false equivalency we are fouling ourselves. I wish Islam was as harmless as Evangelical Christianism. Yeah, they might disagree with your life choices, but they won't put a bullet in your head nor stone you nor throw you off a roof. And anyone that goes around trying to put the two on the same pedestal deserves to be mocked for their lack of either intelligence or honesty.

  • R C Dean||

    can we just have a honest discussion about it

    No. There are narratives to be fluffed.

  • OldMexican Trained Philosopher||

    Not to mention that the known Islamic theocracies punish homosexual acts and homosexuals VERY severely. Whereas one can argue that homosexuals have been freer in secular countries or that the Christian faiths which preach forgiveness are more open to accept homosexuals as flawed people but still deserving of God's love, the fact is that a homosexual is MUCH MORE likely to suffer terribly under an Islamic regime than a Western one.

  • John||

    As you point out above, Communist countries were brutal towards gays. And that doesn't stop progs from singing the praises of people like Che Guivera and communism. If gays think Progs won't turn on them or over look or excuse Muslims murdering them, they are in for a rude awakening.

  • arbitrary wavefunction||

    The imam in Orlando actually said that executing gays was 'compassionate'. I don't know how he reasoned that. I also don't know if it's mainstream.

  • The Grinch||

    Reason intellectually honest? They turned into libertarian Huffpo years ago. There's still plenty of decent stuff here but they're going downhill and this article is a fine indicator of that.

  • Rasilio||

    So what, more likely to support gay marriage but also several hundred times more likely to support killing people solely because they are gay

  • ||

    I for some reason, have this feeling that if this would have been an attack by a radical Christian group, that we would not be talking about Muslims. Why is that?

  • Broswater||

    Because Christians are not retards from some 3rd world country, they should know better and be responsible for their actions. Africans? Muslims? Naaah they don't know better. It's probably some guy in some church that he never went to that had a bad influence on him. That and easily accessible guns. You know those people when they get around guns, they have to shoot something, the gun made him do it! He's not like one of the "us", real people (you know, people that we have in our neighborhood) that owns those 300 000 000 guns in the US, no free agency for him!

    That's the only logical way I can explain what we've been reading in the media in the last 24 hours. Oh and trust me, if you think US media is bad right now, don't read french canadian media.... the stupid...it... it hurts.

  • ||

    Fortunately, I can't read French. But just being in Ontario recently makes me believe you completely.

  • OldMexican Trained Philosopher||

    Re: Hyperion,

    Because the Marxians feel a temporary affinity towards the totalitarian religion which is Islam, whereas they loathe the individualistic nature of Christianity. Christianity is a personal faith, for as Jesus claimed, YOU only have to believe in Him to be saved, something that excludes the State. Islam is, instead, a collectivist religion, where all must submit to the will of Allah, the State included. And we have to remember, the State is to be the vehicle by which Allah expresses His will. There's NO personal choice possible or tolerated, unless you want to suffer immensely.

    That doesn't mean that Marxians would later tolerate Islam once Christianity is weakened because Marxians would just as easily and with a smile on their faces murder them by the millions and bathe in their blood like their forefathers did. It is just that in their constant struggle with Western values and Christianity per sé, the fact that Islam is at odds with their same enemy serves their purposes better.

  • ||

    It makes sense. Shariah and Statism are every similar things.

  • ||

    very

  • ThomasD||

    Exactly. Orthodox Christianity is predicated on both individual responsibility (free will) and the existence of a natural law.

    Both are anathema to the left's program, so must be opposed above and before any other form of theism.

  • Stormy Dragon||

    It is most obviously true that even to the extent that Christian social conservatism has been hostile to acceptance of gays and lesbians, it has certainly not risen to the horrifying levels of Sunday's attack by Omar Matteen

    How many of those 63% of evangelicals still support sodomy laws? I'm betting it's a not insignificant number, and the only real difference between them and Matteen is that they wish to use tax dollars to hire people to violently represses homosexuals instead of doing it themselves.

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    and the only real difference between them and Matteen

    How very Richmanesque

  • JWW||

    They're all Adam Lanza!!!

  • ||

    Did you see that raid this weekend, when the government raided a club and shot down 50 sodomites? That was terrible.

  • John||

    I can't find a single poll that asks if Christians support homosexuality being punishable by prison. At most I can find is "should it be accepted". So I seriously doubt that number is significant. If it was, there would be polls showing it rather than the more vague "accepted".

    But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Judge Roy Moore (AL-R) supports the death penalty for gays.

  • John||

    No he doesn't. The voices in your head don't count as evidence.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    John, there are polls asking Americans in general (not Christians in particular) whether or not homosexuality should be illegal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/165.....ights.aspx

    If I had to guess, I'd think religious people would be overrepresented in the "yes" column and more secular people would be overrepresented in the "no" column. That's as close to a poll as I've seen, someone posted it above.

  • John||

    How many of those saying yes are Muslims? And stated preference versus revealed preference.

  • John||

    and the only real difference between them and Matteen is that they wish to use tax dollars to hire people to violently represses homosexuals instead of doing it themselves.

    That is the most disgusting and stupid thing I have read in a long time. You really have hit a new low here.

  • ||

    Consider the source now, John. Don't punch down. Poor Stormy can't help it.

  • ThomasD||

    Revolutionary truths do not need even a smidgen of actual truth.

  • Suicidy||

    Yeah, those are some interesting mental gymnastics there. Question, is your animus towards these people related to the minster touching your no-noes?

  • ||

    All of this is about one thing. The left, at this moment, see Christians as the enemy. The reason is that they are generally seen to be straight whites of European descent. That makes them bad. They see Muslims as one of their allies, an oppressed minority and good people of color. The fact that the most of them may hate gays and other western minorities is not important, that does not fit the narrative. The enemy is straight white people, especially straight white christian males of European descent.

    That's what is going on. And that narrative will not change for the left until it no longer serves a use for their agenda.

  • ThomasD||

    " The reason is that they are generally seen to be straight whites of European descent."

    No. While those may be identifiers, and evena convenient shorthand, the real reason the left opposes Christianity is that its moral and philosophical essence stands in direct opposition to the leftist urge to collectivize and depersonalize.

    The left is as troubled by Black and Hispanic Christianity, they are just approaching that 'problem' in a different manner.

    Lest their true game become too obvious.

  • WhatAboutBob||

    It is true that there is a tremendous amount of hostility to gays and lesbians in countries where Islam is a dominant religion. A Pew poll from 2013 had the vast majority of Muslims in 36 countries overseas declaring that homosexuality is immoral. When I say "vast majority," I mean numbers like 90 percent.

    So maybe it's not such a great idea to let them immigrate here.

  • PapayaSF||

    A Pew poll from 2013 had the vast majority of Muslims in 36 countries overseas declaring that homosexuality is immoral. When I say "vast majority," I mean numbers like 90 percent.

    I'm sure that once we get more foreign Muslims here, their attitudes will instantly and completely change....

  • ||

    Just like in Sweden, right? We're going to be just like Sweden anyway, didn't you hear what Bernie said?

  • PapayaSF||

    But the USA has Magic Dirt that makes everyone tolerant and inclusive once they set foot here. We're better than everywhere else on Earth, that way.

  • ||

    The USA has done a much better job, so far, of assimilating immigrants, than Europe has. That's going to change. For one thing, you have progs telling them that they don't need to assimilate and it might even be racist if they do. Anyone with a brain could take a look at what's happening in Europe right now with the waves of immigrants from countries with radicalized islamists, and know that what Obama and Hillary are wanting to do with immigration, is a really bad idea. But what do I know, let's just give it a shot and if it goes bad, oh well, intentions were good.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    We actually are, Papaya. Seriously.

  • PapayaSF||

    Perhaps we were in the past. Now that the SJWs have taken over, it's identity politics instead of assimilation to the racist, sexist, heteropatriarchy. So: not anymore.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    I'm not sure that's really the case and I don't think they taken over yet. I've been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit and this is still by far the most tolerant country I've ever been to. Tolerant in the simplest, most honest way: "live your life and I'll live mine". I think that, combined with a decent degree of economic opportunity, this tolerance rubs off on people. Our government may be shit, but overall we're not so bad. And I think people who move here and see experience the country first hand can see that and it is very attractive.

  • Suicidy||

    To hear an SJW tell it, the US is the worst country on earth.

  • OldMexican Trained Philosopher||

    But in reality he may well be more reminiscent of serial killer Ted Bundy blaming his behavior on porn addiction.


    Perhaps. However, I haven't found a single instance where Bob Guccione called the acts committed by Bundy 'Heroic'.

  • orthohawk1026@gmail.com||

    To give this article (and data) any credibility, we must first ascertain what is meant (and understood) by the phrase "approve of gay marriage." There are some religious people who believe that if straight people get special privileges for being coupled with each other then we cannot then turn around and deny gay couples those same privileges. Some are OK with calling it "marriage" and others are not. I favor a "civil unions for all, marriage for those religious who want it" approach where "marriage" (without the civil union part) would have NO bearing whatsoever on a couple's secular status. Everyone gets the same bennies and the same institutional name so there's no issue of "separate but equal"

    Of course, some of us more radical (dare I say "fundamentalist"?) Libertarians would say the state has no business regulating or being a party to ANY private coupling by ANYBODY (other than ensuring compliance with a contract). But that's a whole other can o' worms.

  • orthohawk1026@gmail.com||

    (continued) Now, the other question here is who exactly are we lumping in together under this umbrella term "evangelical christian"?? I've heard people deride "Baptists" on this issue (and many others!) as if they were all the same. There are at least 62 different "denominations" of Baptists ranging from the extremely liberal (aka "may-as-well-be-secular-humanists") American Baptist Churches of the USA all the way up (or down if you prefer!) to Westboro "Baptist" "Church" and others like them. That's quite a range. If you're putting all these Baptists under the same term, you most assuredly will be wrong about (and royally piss off) some of these groups!

    Although the Methodists and Presbyterians aren't quite as numerous (with respect to number of both adherents and different groups) and probably don't have as wide a theological range as the Baptists, my observations are basically true of them as well. Even smaller groups such as the Brethren (from the pretty liberal Church of the Brethren to the might-as-well-be-Amish "horse and buggy" Brethren) and even some Mennonites (including the various Old Order Amish groups) might take umbrage at being put in the same theological soup with the American Baptist Church.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    No law can force people into like or accepting other people's shit.

    Southern white people didn't by some miracle start loving black people when they got rid of Jim Crow. In fact, they probably hate them more.

    There should be no "Hate Crime" laws. An assault, a murder, etc, should be treated as a crime. Can a defendant use their religion as a mitigating circumstance, sure. "I killed those Homos because God Hates Homos". Let a judge and jury decide the validity of the mitigating circumstances.

    Killing a gay man or a black man or a muslim man should not carry a harsher punishment than killing a white guy.

  • ||

    No law can force people into like or accepting other people's shit

    Try telling that to progressives.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    I think most progressives know that the law won't change how people feel.
    They just want laws to punish people for how they feel about others.

  • AblueSilkworm||

    THIS. So much. "They think wrong. Let's fuck them!"

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    You gotta give it to these ISIS People.

    They managed to create an army of people outside of the middle east willing to be soldiers for the ISIS Cause.

    It's genius. And no wall or immigration policy can stop this.

    We truly have no other choice than to
    A> go after the Muslim people in America regardless of the fact that they were born here
    B> just live with the fact that every now-and-then, things like this will happen.

    Given that we are for freedom, against gun control, against singling people out by race/religion/etc., we have no choice but to choose B. All we can do is hope it doesn't happen to us.

  • R C Dean||

    There's a third choice, the Trumpian approach:

    Stop importing Muslims (whether in toto, or more selectively by country of origin). You're going to still get some (B), but the hope is there will be less over time.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    Wasn't this Florida guy born in the USA?

    Plus not only will the liberals stop you, the libertarians will stop you as well.

    The following events have the same solution in the United States
    - PULSE Night Club
    - Sandy Hook killing of 20+ kids less than six years of age
    - Boston Bomber
    - Movie-house shooting
    - Oklahoma Federal building bombing
    - Black Church killings

    And that solution is : "Just live with the fact that every non-and-then, things like this will happen. Just hope that it doesn't happen to you or your loved ones."

  • ||

    His father is Afghan and the father is radicalized. There's a video of him talking about killing gays. He looks like fucking Saddam. So just figure where the guy got it from.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    There are a bunch of videos with the father. A true class-act.

  • Agent Cooper||

    Statistically speaking, it won't likely happen to you or your loved ones.

    Without pre-cogs (which f-ed up in Minority Report anyway) you can't reliably predict such behavior.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Islam will never run out of "true believers".

    After 9/11 I read a lot of Oriana Fallaci. She was a classy Euro version of Pamela Geller. Sadly, she thought Bush's Iraq War would lead to a mass conversion of Muslims into Westerners. She died before she could see how bad the Bush Doctrine turned out to be.

  • ||

    Bush's Iraq War would lead to a mass conversion of Muslims into Westerners

    Well at least it created more radical Islamists, so no one can say it was a failure. Now we can continue the war on terror. That was close, we almost ran out of terrorists.

  • ||

    You gotta give it to these ISIS People.

    They managed to create an army of people outside of the middle east willing to be soldiers for the ISIS Cause.

    This is what happens when government's like the one in Britain becomes so oppressive towards young men that they start desperately searching for some meaning to their fucked up life. Then Mohammed Muhammed comes along and tell them how they can get back at those assholes and create a new life.

    This is something I have believed for a long time. If Western democracy's continue down the path to totalitarianism, radical Islam will gain millions of willing supporters.

  • JWW||

    C. We can also concealed carry. For now...

  • orthohawk1026@gmail.com||

    Now, the other question here is who exactly are we lumping in together under this umbrella term "evangelical christian"?? I've heard people deride "Baptists" on this issue (and many others!) as if they were all the same. There are at least 62 different "denominations" of Baptists ranging from the extremely liberal (aka "may-as-well-be-secular-humanists") American Baptist Churches of the USA all the way up (or down if you prefer!) to Westboro "Baptist" "Church" and others like them. That's quite a range. If you're putting all these Baptists under the same term, you most assuredly will be wrong about (and royally piss off) some of these groups!

    Although the Methodists and Presbyterians aren't quite as numerous (with respect to number of both adherents and different groups) and probably don't have as wide a theological range as the Baptists, my observations are basically true of them as well. Even smaller groups such as the Brethren (from the pretty liberal Church of the Brethren to the might-as-well-be-Amish "horse and buggy" Brethren) and even some Mennonites (including the various Old Order Amish groups) might take umbrage at being put in the same theological soup with the American Baptist Church.

  • R C Dean||

    Because I get my theology from cable TV shows:

    The Muslim activist in Oz said something interesting to the effect that Christians believe in resisting temptation, but Muslims believe in removing or eliminating temptation.

    If so, it explains why the traditional Christian approach to gays is to urge the "sinner" to reform and don't do that no more, but a traditional Muslim approach is to eliminate the gays, with prejudice.

  • Hyperbolical||

    It's telling, Scott, that you compare a specific group of Christians to all Muslims. If instead you compare all Christians to all Muslims the result is opposite.

    Evangelicals are known for their literal interpretation of scripture. They are known for their cherry-picking of scripture in verses such as the one usually used to condemn homosexuality.

    Consider I Corinthians 6:9:

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

    That's a list that too many Christians like to prune down to homosexuality while ignoring the aspects that might implicate themselves. Nonetheless, the fact that this verse exists does not give anyone the right to judge another. The main point of Christianity is that one judges oneself by applying scripture to oneself. It is not ok to judge others unless their choices directly effect you. Too many evangelicals are bent on telling others how to live rather than focusing on themselves as directed by other verses.

    Unless you are comparing fundamentalist Christians to fundamentalist Muslims, your analysis is moot.

  • Duke||

    Unless you are comparing fundamentalist Christians to fundamentalist Muslims, your analysis is moot.

    That is an inapt comparison. You simply cannot compare fundamental christianity with fundamental islam. Jesus himself told people to turn the other cheek when slapped, and to give a thief more than what he's taking. His teachings were the ultimate in non-violent responses to being wronged or aggrieved.

    Meanwhile, Islam teaches global jihad and eye-for-an-eye retributive justice. It's medieval. Their religion advocates killing people in the here and now for being sinners. The fact that both religions call homosexuality and other things sins does not make them comparable in even the slightest. That would be like saying drunk driving laws are comparable to christianity since both vaguely condemn drunkenness.

  • Hyperbolical||

    I don't disagree with you. In fact, I think it is more apt to compare Islam with the ancient Hebrew texts which were reinterpreted by the Jews after their capture by the Mesopotamians. IOW, Islam is much more ancient than just medieval. The Hebrews were once a waring people, too.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The Hebrews were once a waring people, too.

    Once?

  • AblueSilkworm||

    You never disappoint, HM.

  • John||

    And the point of this post is not necessarily to hold up social conservatives to criticism over an incident they had nothing to do with.

    Not necessarily? You guys wonder why I pick on Shackelford so much. But Jesus tap dancing Christ, what is the reader supposed to take from a sentence like that?

    It is just appalling.

  • R C Dean||

    Two thoughts:

    Protest too much, Scott?

    What's that "necessarily" doing in there? It makes it sound like hey, a little incidental criticizing of socons over an incident they had nothing to do with is just, you know, unavoidable.

  • geo1113||

  • Dances-with-Trolls||

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

  • Agent Cooper||

    What the fuck is this article? Let me know when evangelicals start gunning down gays en masse.

  • Duke||

    I'm sure this was covered upthread, but too lazy to scroll. if you were a gay, who would you be more afraid of:

    1) These people: http://www.luhrmann.net/wp-con.....ensed1.jpg

    or

    2) These people: http://shtfplan.com/wp-content.....-islam.jpg

    Seriously, Shack. I realize Reason staff like really hate christians, but let's not be blatantly dishonest about the difference between calling a life choice a sin and mowing those people down with rifles.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    If you are gay, there is a much greater chance of being the victim of discrimination by the Jesus freaks than being killed by ISIS.

    But America is full of people that hate other people. It's totally unfair to just pick on Jesus Freaks and ISIS.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    If you are gay, there is a much greater chance of being the victim of discrimination by the Jesus freaks than being killed by ISIS.

    And.... as long as that discrimination isn't by a public official during the performance of a task by virtue of his or her office, so what?

  • JWW||

    Yep. An American saying "I hate you" is free speech.

    Gunning people down is fucking murder.

    There is a tiny difference here.

    Although the Proggies are gunning for life sentences for both...

  • Duke||

    What is this "discrimination" you speak of? Hurt feelings? Not getting a gay cake? Can you point to any fundies who are tossing gays off of buildings?

    THIS is the problem with giving in to this outrageous, whiny victim culture crap. It's turned millions of Americans into blathering imbeciles. I hate this victim shit worse than deep dish pizza. And that's really saying something!

  • ||

    I hate this victim shit worse than deep dish pizza.

    FUCK YOU THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS DEEP DISH PIZZA.

  • TANSTAAFBOW||

    Duke, perhaps you are just like me, a white fellow in the mid 40s, educated, family man, etc. You've never been discriminated against. But it clearly does exists.

    Look, I'm not gay so I've never been discriminated in that way. In fact, I can't think of a time that I personally was ever discriminated against.

    It's a bit harsh to say these gay people are just of whiny victims.

  • Duke||

    Blacks have a month celebrating them. Now gays have a month celebrating their sexual practices. And my Chase ATM tells me to celebrate their sexuality. What month celebrates my heteronormative whiteness?!

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What month celebrates my heteronormative whiteness?!

    I dunno. What month does the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series start?

  • Duke||

    I resort to celebrating quietly during deer season.

  • Playa Manhattan.||

    Cars driving in a circle? Sounds kind of gay.

  • Madisonian||

    My husband has been discriminated against for 40 years in his career as a yacht rigger and manager, looked down upon by WASPS who dominate his industry, since he is of Italian descent and from the Bronx. He doesn't sit around weeping, he just proves out as the best. I've been given the same treatment for being of Irish descent. Guess what, life is not perfect, suck it up.

  • John||

    Yeah you might have some Christian not like you. And that is totally comparable to being murdered. And yes you are less likely to be murdered but keep letting Muslims in the country and get back to me on that one.

  • JeremyR||

    That doesn't mean a thing though.

    Most Christians who are are against gay marriage (and gayness in general), is because they genuinely, truly believe in heaven and hell. They believe gays are going to hell for being gay. They don't want that to happen.

    Meanwhile muslims who are against gays, do it not to save them from hell, but to send them there earlier.

  • XM||

    Is "Muslim" a religion for the purposes of this poll? If not, then the pollsters probably covered a small plurality of Muslims (Coptic Christians, atheists) who has nothing to do with Islam.

    Christianity is still the dominant religion of our time and it's big enough to include all sorts of liberal sects. That's what happens when people are free to interpret scripture with no fear of penalty. There are around 2 million adult Islamic Muslims. That's hardly 1% of the US population. Their opinion on gar marriage has no effect on the 2.2 BILLION Muslims around the world, many of whom are still stuck in the middle ages.

  • EscherEnigma||

    And world-wide, there are all sorts of Christians that are extremely anti-gay. See: Russia, and (for fear of lumping an entire continent's worth of countries together) Africa.

  • Madisonian||

    I cannot think of a more nominally Christian group than Russians, who's religion was suppressed by the communist state for 60-70 years. It is more of a cultural and national thing to claim to be Orthodox now and basically an excuse to beat up Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, most of whom are not the same ethnicity as the Russians, as well as gays and anyone else outside the mold.

  • Hank Phillips||

    True. Petr Beckmann described how the communist takeover of Czechoslovakia boosted pent-up demand to associate with ANY other religion--even catholicism. The resulting pincer movement made it very frustrating for young males to be initiated into the mysteries of fraternization with the opposite sex.

  • hroark314||

    What % of those evangelicals think that people should be gunned down at gay night clubs? I'm guessing it's less than the % of Muslims.

    Opposing gay marriage doesn't make you a bigot. Wanting to kill gay people does. It would be nice if libertarians at Reason understood why it's a bad idea to demonize people simply because they disagree with your politics.

  • buybuydandavis||

    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians
    Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode.

    Well this was dumb.

    The relevant numbers aren't how many support gay marriage (a minority), but how many support murdering infidels. It doesn't take too high a percentage for it to be a problem.

    How about you compare numbers in favor of political violence for US evangelicals and US muslims? How many US evangelicals are in favor of throwing gays off of buildings?

    American Muslims don't share the attitudes of the Islamic State

    Do American Evangelicals or American Muslims generally share more attitudes of the Islamic State? That's a real stumper.

    A Pew poll from 2013 had the vast majority of Muslims in 36 countries overseas declaring that homosexuality is immoral. When I say "vast majority," I mean numbers like 90 percent.

    So muslims abroad, you know, who might *immigrate* to the US, overwhelmingly think homosexuality is immoral. Dandy.

    How about pointing out the large percentages in favor of
    Government enforced Islamic law
    Death for Apostates
    Death for Adulterers

    No? Don't like those numbers much? Makes Reason's open borders policy look *insane*? Yeah, they do. Still waiting for an article about that.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Attention voters: the buybuy commenter is referring to the Reason Magazine open borders policy. The Libertarian Party platform says: "However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property." That this is tacked on as an afterthought shows the monumental stupidity of allowing moles from hostile parties to infiltrate the LP platform committee.

    Just as nationalsocialist conservatives interpret "All persons born" to mean "All ova fertilized" and agree with the jihadists that initiation of force is just fine if undertaken to please gods or promote altruism, so the above plank translates, in their addled minds, to: open borders.

    It's simply a matter of faith in how they wish the incompetently framed straddle to be apprehended.

  • geo1113||

    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians Mormons
    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians Historically Black Protestants
    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians Jehovah's Witnesses
    In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians Among Those Who Do Not Know Someone Who Is Gay

  • DWB||

    Biggest leftist POS who will sell out freedom for their pet cause?

    Scott (homosexuality) or ENB (baby-killing) -- sigh ...

  • RJ The Terrible||

    hey Shakford this article hit an 11 on scale of 1 to 10 for pure mendacity. up yours you douche.

  • Reasonable1234||

    Hey Reason, I luv ya, but you need to check the SURVEY METHODOLOGY. These were face-to-face interviews with BIG LIMITATIONS, here is a quote:

    "... For example, interviewers in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Morocco indicated that certain questions about sexual preference and sexual behavior were too sensitive to be asked. Questions on these topics were either eliminated or modified in these countries"....

    TRANSLATION: The gay marriage question was not asked in neighborhoods/countries that would kill somebody for getting gay-married.
    Here is the link: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/0.....iety-appc/

  • EscherEnigma||

    "It is most obviously true that even to the extent that Christian social conservatism has been hostile to acceptance of gays and lesbians, it has certainly not risen to the horrifying levels of Sunday's attack by Omar Matteen, which he dedicated to the Islamic State. Certainly there have been radical Christians within the United States calling for violence against homosexuals. But their calls to arms have been ignored and are not institutionalized by authorities (with prison terms and even executions) as they frequently are in Muslim-dominated countries."

    Obscenity laws, Sodomy laws (legal and enforced in 14 states until 2003), DADT, DOMA... you really want to argue that Christian animus wasn't "institutionalized by authorities"? Or am I supposed to ignore all the history just because they eventually lost?

    That said, the only way you can say that anti-gay Christians haven't "risen to the horrifying levels of Sunday's attack" is if you insist on glossing over the religion of most anti-gay assaults, murders and so-on.

    Fact is, everyone expects gay people to not blame Christians (as a whole) for what Christians (as individuals) do. If you argue that we should blame Muslims (as a whole) for what Muslims (as individuals) do, then don't expect Christians to come out smelling like roses.

  • jdog777||

    Tolerance and acceptance are two different things. Christians will tolerate but not accept homosexuality as a viable or moral lifestyle per Biblical doctrine, but will allow homosexuals to live in peace for the most part. The Islamic world has a history of not tolerating or accepting homosexuality... sentencing homosexuals to death. HUGE difference. How many case-in-points do you need.

  • Madisonian||

    You are comparing all Muslims in the poll to just the most conservative of Christians. The comparison should be the total of number of Christians to Muslims who "approve of gay marriage" which would be 44 to 42 percent, not 28 to 42 percent. If Muslims were broken down into groups of the most orthodox branches, the poll numbers on this question would be different. In fact, put in a question about death to homosexuals and I am sure that almost no Christians of any sect would favor such. Could you say the same for the most fervent Islamist sects?

  • Hank Phillips||

    With their sheiks and kings marrying up the fertile females in lots of a dozen, small wonder their jihadi subjects find choices somewhat limited in the game of musical chairs over in Ottomania--especially compared to These States. But my beef is with Reason copying the nationalsocialist epithet used to brand the nonsuperstitious. We are freethinkers. Calling us atheists really says more about the caller.
    To understand this better a simple experiment will clarify. Walk into a #blacklives matter rally greeting everyone with the N-word, or show up at a Jewish Defense League clambake backslapping and calling the attendants kikes. Measurable results will follow, useful for plotting graphs at the foot of your hospital beds.

  • Robert Masters||

    Nice apples to oranges comparison Scott.

    All American Christians are more likely to support All American Muslims on the subject.

    Why isolate the narrow band of Evangelical Christians for your comparison unless you're trying to dishonestly condemn all Christians?

    Why not segregate the Muslims by their sects unless you are trying to dishonestly condemn Christians comparatively.

    There are no Christians suggesting that homosexuals be killed yet in most if not all countries practicing any form of Sharia law they are killed legally.

  • Love Quotes for her||

    And the Westboro folks are Democrats, by the way.

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