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Trump's H-1B Visa Zero-Sum Thinking Will Make American Workers Poorer

Is Donald Trump ever right about anything?

H1BVisaDoorredbusDuring the Republican presidential candidates debate in Miami the billionaire bully was asked about "pausing" the H-1B visa worker program. According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the H-1B program "applies to employers seeking to hire nonimmigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is one that requires the application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and the attainment of at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."

In his inimitable word-salad manner of expostulating, Trump replied:

First of all, I think and I know the H1B very well. And it's something that I frankly use and I shouldn't be allowed to use it. We shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers. And second of all, I think it's very important to say, well, I'm a businessman and I have to do what I have to do.

When it's sitting there waiting for you, but it's very bad. It's very bad for business in terms of -- and it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers. And we should end it. Very importantly, the Disney workers endorsed me, as you probably read.

And I got a full endorsement because they are the ones that said, and they had a news conference, and they said, he's the only one that's going to be able to fix it. Because it is a mess. I think for a period of a year to two years we have to look back and we have to see, just to answer the second part of your question, where we are, where we stand, what's going on.

We have to sort of take a strong, good, hard look and come up with plans that work. And we're rushing into things, and we're just -- we're leading with the chin.

We're leading with people that don't know what they are doing in terms of our leadership. I'd say a minimum of one year, maybe two years.

His reference to Disney stems from the lawsuit in which 250 workers claim that the entertainment company replaced them illegally by hiring H-1B visa holders. The courts will decide if the company violated the law in this instance.

But the larger question is, how does the H-1B program affect the employment and wages of American citizens? Actually the program raises native worker wages and has no significant effects on native employment according to three economists in their 2014 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper. There was one downside - the inflow of H-1B workers into a city tends to raise the cost of housing. From the study:

We find that a one percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased wages of native college educated labor by about 7-8 percentage points and the wages of non-college educated natives by 3-4 percentage points. We find non-significant effects on the employment of those two groups. These results indicate that growth in STEM workers spurred technological growth by increasing productivity, especially that of college educated workers. They also experienced increasing housing rents, which eroded part of their wage gain.

Additionally, a 2016 survey of 900 tech innovaters by the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation found that ...

...immigrants comprise a large and vital component of U.S. innovation: 35.5 percent of U.S. innovators were born outside the United States. Another 10 percent of innovators have at least one parent born abroad. Over 17 percent of innovators are not even U.S. citizens, yet are nonetheless making in valuable contributions to U.S. innovation. Immigrants born in Europe or Asia are over five times more likely to have created an innovation in America than the average native-born U.S. citizen.

Trump's call to shut down the H-1B visa program is just the sort of zero-sum thinking that really will ensure slower job growth and make Americans poorer.

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  • Brian||

    The H1 visa program does need to end, and to be replaced with an incredibly lax program that allows practically anyone to come here and work.

    One of the reason's the H1 visa people are so popular with employers is because the H1 visa itself is a noose around the employees neck: they'll work hard for lower pay, just so they can stay in the damn country. It artificially creates a pool of worker's who'll take lower pay just for privilege of staying and living here. It's a labor market distortion that helps employers at the expense of everyone else.

    And if you close the border entirely, don't whine if someone opens a shop outside of the USA.

  • Ron Bailey||

    B: Yes.

  • SIV||

    That isn't what you said in the OP

    Fuck Off, Slaver.

  • SQRLSY One||

    For once I have many bones to pick with Ron B.
    Ron is writing here from the ivory-tower view, not really knowing what is going on, on the ground. I am generally pro-immigration and pro-freedom all around. But, the likes of HP (Hewlett Packard), I know personally… Having many friends who have been laid off from there… Will lay you off (as an American native), and then BLACKLIST you, so you can never work there again! Yes, absolutely! So freedom is GREAT… Except as an HP-liad-off American worker, you do not have the FREEDOM to compete with the H-1B immigrants! Even if you are willing to take the lower pay that they take; you are NOT allowed to compete! WHY would the likes of HP deliberately shrink their “available labor” pool by “blacklisting”, thereby shrinking their labor supply, thereby increasing costs of their labor? All other things being equal, free-market-wise? Less supply, higher costs?

  • SQRLSY One||

    Well, duh, by Government Almighty meddling, in the form of H-1B! HP basically LIES to Government Almighty, saying, “see, here we can’t find any qualified workers… Ignore those invisible laid-off people over there… And so we MUST have H-1Bs! ‘Cause we just can NOT find ANYONE anywhere!” … To see more details of HOW this makes “sense”, economically, only AFTER Guv Almighty meddling, see ... OK, link too long, search for this string...
    “Grand Central Scam of HP Explained Here, in Terms of Economics”

  • C. Anacreon||

    Meanwhile, we have a doctor shortage, and have a couple of times hired docs on H-1b so we can keep the ER doors open.

    The H-1b hires were extortionary with us, demanding that we reimburse all their side of immigration costs, including attorneys fees.

    By law, we can't pay them any less than the rest of our civil service rates, so there's no advantage to getting them, just another way to get a warm body with a license, as I said.

    As soon as the H-1b docs got green cards, no loyalty whatsoever, they immediately took another job, leaving without proper notice, resulting in us scrambling to cover their shifts.

    When we said you can't do this, you are under a contract, they just said "why don't you complain to the immigration office" and then laughed hysterically as they drove off in their new BMW.

  • ||

    Maybe you should pay them more

  • C. Anacreon||

    If that was a response to me the pay rate is not an option. These are union civil service positions. Every doc gets the exact same rate. And it's actually a very competitive rate and includes pretty amazing bennies, including 7 weeks of vacation and ten paid holidays for new employees.

    There's just a huge physician shortage in the US right now. And the specialty boards (private agencies, not the state for once) keep making it more difficult to be qualified and exclude appropriate docs from working here. For example, you can be a board certified doc from France with 20 years of experience, and they make you do an entire new residency program of 4-5 years from scratch, as if you just finished med school, to see a patient in the US.

  • buybuydandavis||

    As soon as the H-1b docs got green cards, no loyalty whatsoever, they immediately took another job, leaving without proper notice, resulting in us scrambling to cover their shifts.

    Damn those indentured servants! Just no loyalty to their owners these days!

  • C. Anacreon||

    Hard to imagine how somebody making $300,000 per year and 7 weeks vacation with a 36-hour work week is an indentured servant. Especially when they're making exactly the same as all the other US-born docs and we covered all their visa cost, including the parts that legally they were responsible for paying themselves. All we asked was that they give us the proper notice required in their contract, instead of literally leaving with sick patients waiting unseen in the ER, saying screw you after all we did for them.

    And I guess I am the jerk in all this, because as the supervisor I had to urgently cover all their shifts for no pay.

    So in your world, employees can quit whenever they want, forcing you to work their shifts for them and no reimbursement for yourself, despite a contract, and they are indentured servants?

    I want to work for you. I will give you my address to send me a paycheck. But you'll have to work all my shifts for me, you exploitative slaver bastard.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    Indeed. The more germane question is, "Is Reason ever right about anything?"

  • CE||

    Exactly. If you raise tariffs and stop immigration, a lot more jobs are going to leave the country, more Americans will be out of work, and everything we buy will cost more.

  • Social Contractor||

    Yes but these people believe that you can then make it illegal to leave the country. All problems created by laws are fixed by even better laws!

  • SDN||

    We won't. I presume you won't whine if we don't come rescue your azz when the Muslims are burning down your factory.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Trump and immigration?

    There but for the grace of God go I.

  • DJF||

    Once again Reason explains why the law of supply and demand does not apply to immigration.

  • Ron Bailey||

    Three words: total factor productivity

  • ||

    Two words: comparative advantage.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    You might consider that "comparative advantage" doesn't take into consideration costs not so easily quantified by economics. Namely, when a sufficiently large portion of your population gets fed up with being comparatively advantaged out of a livelihood, you get President Trump. Or worse.

  • R C Dean||

    Total factor productivity, per wiki, is "a variable which accounts for effects in total output growth relative to the growth in traditionally measured inputs of labor and capital. If all inputs are accounted for, then total factor productivity (TFP) can be taken as a measure of an economy’s long-term technological change or technological dynamism."

    Its a derivative, a residual, and thus prone to error/manipulation based on assumptions. That makes we wary.

    This quote:

    We find that a one percentage point increase in the foreign STEM share of a city’s total employment increased wages of native college educated labor by about 7-8 percentage points and the wages of non-college educated natives by 3-4 percentage points.

    Makes me wonder which direction the causation arrow is pointing. Could it be that employers in cities with rapidly growing wages start looking for lower cost H1B workers, in spite of the legal hassles? Maybe the corrected for timing, but even so, is there a control city to compare? If not, its hard to know the degree to which it was bringing in H1B workers that caused the increases for the remaining employed workforce.

    Also, did they look at labor force participation in those cities? How is it impacted by immigration? If you bring in 20 engineers, that may mean 20 native engineers who aren't working in engineering. Mobility is another variable, of course.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Three words: total factor productivity

    Is that your magic spell that holds the laws of economics at bay? Must be fun.

  • Social Contractor||

    I'm not clear on that because there are certainly more people than 100 years ago but wages are not lower. Don't people also create jobs?

  • ||

    No. Only the government creates jobs. Immigrants and private businesses take jobs away.

  • __Warren__||

  • MSimon||

    Yes. It is.

  • Bubba Jones||

    I am not reading 44 pages but it seems more likely to me that higher wages for native STEM would drive the corporate demand for H1B and not the other way around.

  • Scarecrow & WoodChipper Repair||

    My guess is that H1B hiring indicates companies growing and hiring others. IOW, H1B hiring is just a symptom of growth, not a cause.

    The real devil with H1B is that the work visas are tired to the specific company, so the companies have those H1B employees over a barrel -- they get paid less than non-H1B employees of the same caliber, and the H1B employees don't dare do anything which gets them fired, because then they have something like a week to find a new H1B employer or be deported.

  • ||

    This. ThE visa being tied to one specific employer really fucks the employee, and the employer knows it. If they just made it possible to work for anyone you want that would change everything. And I speak as someone who has been and h1b employee for 6 years

  • lafe.long||

    In his inimitable word-salad manner of expostulating, Trump replied:

    It reads like an e-mail I got from a Nigerian prince one time.

  • creech||

    And we thought GWB was incoherent? Seems like an orator next to the Donald.

  • __Warren__||

    What about the H1N1 visa?

  • Acosmist||

    Seems like with 300 million people, lots of vocational schools, and world-class universities, we could probably find someone to do just about any job there is. No need for the cronytastic immigration process to give special treatment to dickbag employers.

  • JFree||

    The problem is less with immigration/H1 than it is with why so few Americans go to college and study STEM there. Every year,

    367,000 bachelors in business
    178,000 social science (liberal arts)
    163,000 health professions
    109,000 psychology
    106,000 education
    96,000 visual arts
    96,000 biology
    84,000 communication
    81,000 engineering
    54,000 English
    54,000 law enforcement
    47,000 computer tech/sci
    46,000 humanities/liberal arts
    46,000 interdisciplinary
    39,000 P.E.
    30,000 agriculture
    30,000 how to be a bureaucrat
    26,000 physical sciences

    It's almost like - Americans are fucking lazy idiots who mostly go to college to drink and smoke pot

  • ||

    "go to college to drink and smoke pot"

    In fairness, there aren't that many other good reasons to go to college.

  • SIV||

    Pussy?

  • __Warren__||

    Balloon?

  • ||

    Queefallooing

  • __Warren__||

    flipthwipflipthwipflipflipthwipflipthwipflip

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I worked in a movie theater during college. I got more action from the girls at work than I did from the ones at school. And I got free movies and a paycheck as a bonus.

    A lot of these strivers would do themselves a big favor getting some work experience in the real world before going to college. It might even tamper down a bit on the "safe space" BS we've come to know and love.

  • Careless||

    My one friend on an h1b is a cpa. I knew a number of unemployed cpas when she got her visa

  • JFree||

    As an aside - business is creating this problem. It is pretty clearly sending the message that majoring in 'business' (almost a pure credentialing exercise since very little in 'business' really requires a bachelors level of knowledge) is a better option than majoring in much more difficult STEM (which often DOES require a bachelors level of knowledge).

  • ||

    ^ This.

    It's the same phenomenon by which teachers get "Education" degrees but don't actually learn anything they can teach to students.

    So many positions look favorably on an MBA but you get these people who know nothing at all about the actual industries they are trying to run. Everything is a "widget," and then they don't understand why things won't work according to their formulas.

  • MSimon||

    I didn't go to college. I got plenty of recreation in those years. I worked my way up to aerospace engineer.

  • Pat (PM)||

    H1B isn't exclusively (or even mostly) for STEM grads though.

  • Whatever Farm Animal Of War||

    Or perhaps there simply aren't that many people who feel at all attracted to the STEM based professions because they can be really boring.

    I mean, if you get excited by the idea of mastering several really exacting disciplines in order to design slightly more efficient hard drives than the ones from last year, that is awesome. But it is hardly surprizing that most people aren't similarly excited.

  • JFree||

    I can see that and I don't think the degree problem is what is often stated -- too many 'liberal arts' or 'humanities' majors. I think most liberal arts majors pick their major because that's what they really like. More power to them for that. But I'm gonna guess that near 100% of business majors are picking that for career reasons not 'passion' reasons. If businesses were less credential oriented, many of those business majors would be working instead of in college. From inside a company, they would see which areas of study actually pay off and when. Once a kid is in debt for an unguided major, it is too late for them to shift around laterally and go even deeper into debt.

    The best analogy is the original GI Bill (ignoring the gummint aspects). Most of those ex-GI's were working while using the education benefits (ie before their credential). Their majors were very different than their kids/grandkids. Engineering was #1 or #2 - not a distant #9. I don't want more federal college benefits (the reverse) - but I swear American corporations are the laziest cheapest sleaziest entities in the world at developing/harnessing the human skills that they need to succeed. H1B's are little more than free riding off foreign education. Outsourcing to China is only partially about cheap serfs - it is also free riding off the Chinese education system. This is a relatively recent phenomenon AFAIK and no other 'high cost' countries corporations are near as cavalier about this business need.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    The part you're leaving out - we already have plenty of STEM graduates that can't find jobs.

    What I don't see listed here - the unemployment rates of native STEM workers.

    I can real off one example right off the top of my head. The US graduates approximately 600 particle physics Ph.Ds annually. There are nothing like 600 new jobs requiring a particle physics Ph.D being created each year.

    "Highly skilled" and "highly in demand" are two different things.

  • JFree||

    Yes they are different things. But right now - those who employ/demand particular skills do next to nothing to ensure a long-term supply of that skill - and indeed often deliberately undermine that potential pipeline since there are virtually no costs to flitting around the world and free-riding on someone else. And 19 year olds are left with absolutely no information on which to base what skills they will acquire - and go deep into debt acquiring.

    So no one really should be surprised that this is a huge market failure.

  • ||

    The problem is that student loans are offered at the same rate and terms regardless of major.if we said that humanities major had to pay twice the rate of interest as stemmajors,we'd get fewer humanities majors and more stem majors.

  • buybuydandavis||

    The problem is less with immigration/H1 than it is with why so few Americans go to college and study STEM there.

    Gee, wonder why people who can do math don't go into fields where the government is letting corporations import their indentured servant competition.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    And then the fact that they're avoiding those fields is used as a rationale for bringing in even more foreign workers. Funny how that works, isn't it?

  • creech||

    Should it ever get to the point where the President gets rid of H1B I hope they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah, maybe some eurotrash model can easily be duplicated from some domestic fashion model agency. But my former employer used it to bring in a couple of employees from our sister company in Canada where they had worked out some unique methods of production management. They were here for two years,
    production increased, and we were able to hire several more Americans to man the production line.

  • __Warren__||

    Hire whomever you like. It's not my place to make that decision for you.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    *whoever.

  • __Warren__||

    Whatever.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    :)

  • ||

    I think "whomever" is correct. Whichever verb you choose -- "hire" in the first clause or "like" in the second -- "whomever" is the object of it.

  • ||

    I wasn't going to say anything, but yes.

  • pan fried wylie||

    *Witchever

  • MSimon||

    Watchever the Witchevers.

  • Careless||

    I couldn't read the whole thing due to hardware issues, but he eventually pointed out that the program doesn't actually import workers who have skills that can't be found in adequate numbers in the atates, right?

  • __Warren__||

    From a nationalistic POV wouldn't you want all of the best workers to be here, working for American companies?

    Might as well grab those second and third tier guys while you're at it. Leaving the other countries to manage how they can with the dregs. That would be a uuuuuuuge advantage.

  • Tak Kak||

    "From a nationalistic POV wouldn't you want all of the best workers to be here, working for American companies?"

    Bringing in lots of people from other nations doesn't strike me as a particularly Nationalist position.

  • __Warren__||

    Having their production here is. The wealth they create would go mostly to Americans. We get richer faster than the other countries. That's the point.

  • ||

    Plus, brain drain on the other countries. This has been a recognized problem in India for decades now.

  • Tak Kak||

    "Having their production here is. The wealth they create would go mostly to Americans. We get richer faster than the other countries. That's the point."

    Yes, even with that understanding of how it would work out, I'm not sure that makes it nationalistic. I'm thinking of a few Nationalists who've said outright to neo-liberals that it's "worth the cost" to keep out immigrants even if they do improve GDP.

  • __Warren__||

    Worth the cost? What is that they're paying for then?

    They get a lower-GDP country in exchange for what, exactly? What is their vision of America?

  • Tak Kak||

    "They get a lower-GDP country in exchange for what, exactly? What is their vision of America?"

    I couldn't say what "their vision" is, seems clear that they'd prefer the the "familiar to the unknown and the tried to the untried" though to paraphrase a famous conservative.

    Do you think GDP is the highest-priority for a nation?

  • __Warren__||

    I don't think about things from the top-down perspective. Individuals are free to make their trade-offs. What results is what results.

  • Tak Kak||

    "I don't think about things from the top-down perspective. Individuals are free to make their trade-offs. What results is what results."

    It reads like there's still some implicit "top-down" view packed in there. I imagine libertarians hold the NAP higher than GDP. Others might choose happiness, equality, or rule of law...

    (In it's defense, at least GDP can be measured)

  • __Warren__||

    No top-down from me. Doesn't mean I can't try to understand another's POV.

  • R C Dean||

    The wealth they create would go mostly to Americans.

    More than if the jobs were overseas, certainly, but don't forget to net out the remittances that they send home.

  • ||

    Fair point.

    Change it to: The wealth they create would go mostly to Americans. Some green pieces of paper would be sent home.

  • R C Dean||

    Those remittances are not creating wealth here. I think they are probably reducing wealth here. Income and wealth are different points on the cycle of capital creation. Reduce one, and eventually you reduce the other.

  • ||

    The green pieces of paper represent demand on the US economy whether they are spent next door, "remitted" to family in upstate New York, or "remitted" halfway around the world.

    Keynesian concerns of demand and mercantilist concerns of where dollars happen to be spent or invested are unbecoming.

  • __Warren__||

    They are if the products being purchased have an American connection.

  • buybuydandavis||

    From a nationalistic POV wouldn't you want all of the best workers to be here, working for American companies?

    Depends who *you* are.

    If you're an employer, sure. Indentured servants are great. If you're in the labor market competing with the indentured servants, not so good.

  • buybuydandavis||

    From a nationalistic POV wouldn't you want all of the best workers to be here, working for American companies?

    Great for Corporate America, not so great for American citizens who have to work for a living.

  • Alice Bowie (is back)||

    Trump's H-1B Visa Zero-Sum Thinking Will Make American Workers Poorer

    A few years ago I had two Java Developer consultants. One H1b and another Green Card/Citizen.
    We paid $100/hr for both. THe only difference was that the H1b guy was getting like $65/hr because he was being skimmed by two pimps. The other guy was getting $98/hr because the local pimp took a $2hr skim

    The consulting firms that bring in the H1Bs are making a killing and lots of hanky panky goes on.

    Getting rid of H-1Bs would make the Pimps poor. Not the American worker.
    We should just bring these indians in with green cards and make them get equal pay to Americans.
    This entire race to the bottom is bullshit.

  • Old Mexican Mighty Aggressor||

    Re: Alice Bowie,

    We paid $100/hr for both. THe only difference was that the H1b guy was getting like $65/hr because he was being skimmed by two pimps. The other guy was getting $98/hr because the local pimp took a $2hr skim


    Never crosses your mind that the H1B holder values the stay in the US enough to consider a discount of $35.00 USD, over the normal rate, totally worth it, does it? You know that an H1B visa holder can apply for a Green Card without trouble. That has some worth for the H1B visa holder, so saying that he's getting 'ripped off' is merely your opinion and not a fact.

  • Alice Bowie (is back)||

    Go eat a guacamole ese.

    I know 100s of H1Bs from india and I'm friends with many of them.
    They're indentured servants at $65/hr. Which is pretty much not too bad.

    I'm actually going to share this link and show what you wrote about "you know that an H1B visa holder can apply for a Green Card without trouble."

    THat shows you no NOTHING about this.

  • Zeb||

    But the consultants taking their cut is pretty much just parasitic rent-seeking bullshit. It would be much better if they could just come to work without needing someone to take care of the complicated paperwork.

  • thrakkorzog||

    Right, change it to to a simple work visa, and remove the need to stay tied to one particular company, and I'm guessing about 90% of the companies using H1Bs will suddenly find plenty of qualified Americans willing to take those jobs.

    Even if you think immigration is a good thing, forcing immigrants to stay at one job while being paid below market rates isn't exactly a great example of the free market at work.

  • Alice Bowie (is back)||

    I was career IT consultant for 20 of my 32 years of work.

    Between 1996 and 2000 I never made less than $75/hr for C++/DB/Java/unix stuff.
    I got a job in 2000 doing VB that paid $135/hr.

    The great thing was that there was so many jobs that you could pretty much start somewhere else within a week.

    Us independent consultants became targets. 1706 regulation passed and we all became corporations.
    Do you know who lobbied for 1706? Big consulting firms. Why? They weren't getting part of the skim. And, since they paid their programmers SHITTY, the independent consultants were always better and made more money.

    Next thing you know, they imported tons of indian fellows and there goes the rates. Wall St was able to stagnate these rates for a good 17 years now. Today, a C++/Java/Unix/DB guy goes for $100/hr. Rent has doubled and food has trippled. BUt the Race to the bottom is alive and well.

    That's the thing about American Capitalism: Once you start making a good living and have a good work/life balance, you are a target:
    - Proteleum Engineers
    - Call Center workers
    - Programmers
    - Union workers
    - Teachers

  • ||

    Can't speak to the others, but as someone who works in the construction industry I can tell you that unionized construction workers are doing. just. fine.

  • PapayaSF||

    It's the non-unionized ones, the college kids who want a summer job, etc., who are screwed by illegal immigration.

  • ||

    There is truth to this, but it is also an effect of the fact that *illegal* immigrant workers are trapped in so many ways and can so easily be taken advantage of. If they were above board they would have better negotiating positions and they would be inherently less attractive than native labor.

  • PapayaSF||

    True.

  • Brian||

    If only we had more socialism, there'd be less regulation of protelum engineers, programmers, etc.

  • Sevo||

    Alice Bowie (is back)|3.11.16 @ 6:28PM|#
    "BUt the Race to the bottom is alive and well."

    Poor Alice! Out-competed once more; always the loser.

  • Brian||

    I had a good job going with the proteleum engineering, until they started up with the proteleum regulations and licensing requirements.

    It's been all down hill from there.

  • Brian||

    Rent has doubled and food has trippled. BUt the Race to the bottom is alive and well.

    So much for "no inflation."

  • Pan Zagloba||

    I got a job in 2000 doing VB that paid $135/hr.

    This is a programmer version of Balko Nutpunch. And the worst part is that I believe it.

  • kbolino||

    Still waiting for that 1040...

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Teachers have never made that much, even by the standards of yesteryear. Seriously, Google teacher salaries from the early-mid 20th century--even on an inflation-adjusted basis they were pretty miniscule.

    The difference is that appx. 50+ years of nearly unbroken inflation has essentially nuked our purchasing power for anything other than electronic doo-dads.

  • Rasilio||

    Sorry but H1B has to end and Ron your argumentation here is sloppy at best.

    We'll start with your second quote. I'm sorry but you are taking the word of a very biased group, the companies who benefit from the H1B program and twisting a quote which isn't about H1B visas but rather immigration in general to make it seem like it applies. Yes, immigrants are very important to the creative fields, however H1B visa holders are almost never "creators" rather being at best low paid "implementors" of others vision.

    Next, the study is almost certainly measuring the fact that a higher percentage of workers being on an H1B is caused specifically by a higher percentage of all work in that region being high tech in nature. It is not the presence of the H1B workers that drives up the local wages, it is the presence of the high tech jobs whether wages would be even higher with those jobs but withour the H1B program is at best an open question

    Third, as others have already noted, the biggest problem with the H1B program is not that it lowers wages but rather that it lowers employment. Nobody who knows what they are talking about thinks that American citizens would accept less for those jobs to crowd out the H1B visas, the real problem is the H1B visa holder becomes nearly an indentured servant to the company because the cannot quit. Rather than lowering wages this just limits the total number of jobs available to local workers.

  • Rasilio||

    Finally, the H1B programs biggest flaw is it allows the lie that these jobs require a college degree to be perpetuated. In the overwhelming majority of cases the job does not require a degree, the company just claims it does so they have some way of screening out lower class applicants without risking a discrimination suit. IT is the most common field to use H1B's and there isn't a single IT related job which actually requires a degree to do

  • kbolino||

    the company just claims it does so they have some way of screening out lower class applicants without risking a discrimination suit

    This is a real problem that is almost certainly not going to be addressed regardless of whether there are H-1B visas being issued or not.

    IT is the most common field to use H1B's and there isn't a single IT related job which actually requires a degree to do

    While I generally agree with this statement, on a moderate to large programming team, somebody should have a computer science background. Judging that by a process other than selecting for degree, however, would likely run afoul of the above limitation.

  • Homple||

    "It is not the presence of the H1B workers that drives up the local wages, it is the presence of the high tech jobs whether wages would be even higher with those jobs but withour the H1B program is at best an open question."

    In scanning those 44 pages of econometric formulas, I couldn't find where the math and statistics falsified Rasilio's above-quoted statement.

    As long as I'm in the presence of some who obviously studied and understood the paper, could someone give a quick explanation of how that is done?

  • Social Contractor||

    There's plenty of people (maybe the majority) that think overpopulation is a problem. It's sort of the intuitive assumption that we have X amount of resources and more people will mean fewer resources. Without addressing those incorrect assumptions (as opposed to yelling racist) I don't ever see getting much support for more open borders.

  • ||

    It's not a terrible argument, and it's the only one I find even mildly persuasive. An old friend of mine who grew up in India once remarked to me that Americans just have no concept of what real overpopulation is and how hard it is to deal with once you have it.

  • Zeb||

    The thing is, it's self regulating to some extent. People aren't going to keep immigrating if there aren't jobs and a decent quality of life. And as the rest of the world gets better developed, fewer people will have reason to immigrate and more natives might want to go somewhere else.

  • R C Dean||

    I've been seeing articles that most of the growth in employment since the "recovery" began has been going to immigrants. It is certainly the case that we have a lot of green cards working in this country since 2009, yet the recovery has been remarkably weak.

    Does that factor into this analysis at all? It makes it harder to accept that immigration isn't having a negative impact on American workers. When the first order effects are not favorable, the second order benefits better be very solid, IMO.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

  • PapayaSF||

    The H-1B visa program is a scam. A quote from the article:

    My first exposure to H1B was when I was consulting to multiple VC’s back in the dot-com era. Several VC’s I did work for, the portfolio managers would instruct/demand their portfolio companies hire H1B’s instead of Americans for ‘common’ jobs such as programmers, DBA’s (database administrators), network admins and even IT help desk people.

    The reason of course was $$$. The H1B’s cost approx. 1/3rd or 1/4th the cost of the comparable American in same job.

    I remember this one VC board meeting where the CEO of a portfolio company said the H1B’s in his company were complaining about their sub-standard pay, and one of the VC partners said, “Fuck them. Tell them if they don’t like it, we’ll toss their ass out, get another H1B to replace you and you’ll be on your way back to India.”
  • Homple||

    Hey, observations in the real world are no match for the t statistics on regression coefficients for souped-up Cobb-Douglas equations.

    Why are you anti-science?

  • XM||

    There just aren't that many foreign guest workers in the country to seriously damage or enhance the economy. I think there are maybe a few hundred thousand foreign IT workers, in a nation with 300 plus million people.

    If a foreigner was hired to work at resorts, then what's the benefit to "native wages"? There are a lot of guest worker types at IT and perhaps that boosts wages on that field, but it won't affect 99% of Americans.

    I live in a state with the most immigrants. I worked for immigrant businesses. It's not my experience that immigrants significantly boost wages for middle class natives or immigrants. Any practical benefit for working for a typical immigrant business will involve under the table deals or cash payments. (See : NY nail salons).

    I have friends who work for law firms and doctor's office founded by immigrants. There are Latinos and some whites who work there too. Someone could credibly claim they boosted or provided wages for natives. But that's not a typical immigrant experience. A white guy from Minnesota cannot find a stable career in Koreatown, unless he has some connection in that community.

    If you're working for a Vietnamese company in Westminster, you have a fancy degree and have some sort of connection. And they'll check your degree, believe me. You already belonged to a world that's sort of set apart from most Americans.

  • R C Dean||

    There just aren't that many foreign guest workers in the country to seriously damage or enhance the economy.

    We've been issuing about a million green cards a year for quite some time. "Employment-based" green cards run about 100,000/year. That's not a small number, especially as it accumulates year on year.

  • MSimon||

    You know what area of STEM work has been least affected by H1B's?

    Military work.

  • dannye||

    My MSEE graduating class in 2004 numbered 120 people. Last year it was less than 60. Ratio is a bit better for BSEE but not by much. Plus a bunch of those people in the MS program were foreigners.

    There are many, many advantages to hiring people who don't have do deal with visa paperwork, take 6 weeks a year off to go married or whatever the fuck they do back there, and generally have very poor communication skills. But as much as we try to recruit people who don't require a H1B, we would never come close to hitting our staffing goals if we didn't.

    If Americans want those jobs, go get the degree. And no, programming and IT are no longer considered "high-tech' positions.

  • Homple||

    Are the wages/(cost of education) ratios for EEs low, or are students just not willing to slog through 4 years of hard stuff?

  • dannye||

    Compensation is good. Not hot-shot lawyer or specialty doctor good, but on the other hand, I rarely work more than 40 hours a week and I didn't spend money on law/medical school.

    So it is probably the latter. Apparently the guaranteed money and easy advancement path (since the vast majority of H1B hires are barely literate, unimaginative robots) isn't enough to get people to study this stuff.

  • Homple||

    Do they make power systems engineers anymore? The active ones I work with are getting old, as are power plant MEs.

  • dannye||

    Yes, but power systems has become a very niche sub-field in the EE world. Very few people do it because the current compensation is relatively poor.

    But that is one field where there is no H1B help and age/attrition might cause compensation for new grads to increase significantly in the near future.

  • dannye||

    Yes but power systems has become a niche specialty in EE. Few people study it because current compensation is relatively poor (compared to IC or RF work).

    But there is no H1B help in that area and attrition could well cause compensation for new power engineers to increase in the near future.

  • Homple||

    The trouble with power engineering (EE and ME) salaries is the industry's switch of emphasis from technical competence to financial thimblerigging.

  • JFree||

    Does your company 'require' bachelors degrees for most entry-level white collar jobs? Because THAT is more than likely the problem. To an 18 year old who has no real idea what they want to do with their life (100% of them), that bogus credentialing ( you need a degree to get hired for anything beyond McDonalds) is what steers them into college - and once there they just go into the debt swamp. If OTOH your company only requires college degrees for jobs that actually require college level knowledge; then employees will have a MUCH clearer idea of what studies to pursue once they are inside a company and they can see where the opportunities are.

  • kbolino||

    If the company required an actual test of competence, as opposed to a court-approved credential, then they would open themselves up to discrimination suits.

    I agree that there is a problem with education credentialism, but the (root) cause is not companies or even their detestable HR departments.

  • JFree||

    I disagree. Credentialing is, at core, laziness not fear. In my experience, fear isn't even the secondary reason. Peer acceptance is. - ie managers who don't credential open themselves up to being viewed as not as important or not 'hiring up' etc as managers who do on the golf course/meetings/etc.

  • kbolino||

    If what you say were the most important factor, then the market would be ripe for disruption.

  • dannye||

    For technical positions we only hire MS and PhD and we prefer people who have published research, so I don't think this is an issue with bogus credentials. And H1B hires are technical only.

    Our average compensation levels are widely published so people know about the money. We bring in interns and even high-schoolers and tell them outright. Even then we have to resort to H1B's and all the shit that goes with them.

  • Nutella2||

    Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were college dropouts.

  • dannye||

    That's fine, Steve Jobs was never an engineer and Bill Gates was too smart to stay an engineer forever.

    Someone has to work out the technical details and apparently Americans aren't interested.

  • thrakkorzog||

    The problem is that the way the H1B program was sold is that there are jobs out there that there need to be filled, and there aren't enough Americans qualified to do them, or foreign workers with unique assets like models and actors. Nobody but the most hardcore nativist is upset because Indian doctors, Ukrainian models, British actors, and Russian rocket scientists are coming here and taking our jobs. After all, I'm going to have a hard time arguing that the reason I wasn't on the cover of Vogue was because of a cheaper Ukrainian model.

    The problem is that in actual practice H1Bs have been used to replace American workers with cheaper foreign workers who are tied to their jobs.

    If I'm good at my job I can ask for a raise, and if my boss doesn't want to give me a raise, then I'm free to look for a job elsewhere that will pay my asking price. H1B immigrants don't really have that option. They have to take what they get and like it.

    H1Bs as currently implemented are a horrible distortion on the market, and not anything close to what would consider free market competition.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Sure, it'll make American workers poorer, but it'll make America great again.

    In other news, most interesting man in the world no longer that interesting.

  • Quincy.||

  • __Warren__||

    I hear there's a mad scientist that has her DNA and is going to use CRISPR to splice it into a giant lizard to create a Brontësaurus.

  • Quincy.||

    Jane Eyre: Dinosaur Hunter in theaters 2018.

  • __Warren__||

    The soundtrack will feature the surprise chart-topping hit Eyre of the Tiger.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    OT - Time to start my trolling for the weekend.

    Amazon Prime signs on with Giordano's for deep dish pizza

  • The Hyperbole||

    OT.. I believe that I have seen people post links here that go to a specific comment in a different H&R post. If I'm not mistaken and this is possible can one of you nerds explain how this is done, thanks in advance,... sorry 'bout the nerd thing.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Click on the # sign by the comment. That's a direct link to the comment itself.

  • The Hyperbole||

    Gracias.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

  • __Warren__||

    He's not sorry!

  • Notorious UGCC||

  • sarcasmic||

    'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free.'

    Stupid Statue of Liberty. Damn thing needs to come down. It hates Americans.

  • Homple||

    I'm not sure that the inscription on the base of a statue is a sound basis for national immigration policy. It's good for the feelz, but not much of in the way of logical policy analysis.

    It's a big bronze bumper sticker.

  • Nutella2||

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    The Statue of Liberty was built to commemorate American independence and symbolize the country's bond with France. It had nothing to do with that stupid Emma Lazarus poem that came after it.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    Growing criticism by atheists of the New Atheism movement

    Sample: "C.J. Werleman, in The New Atheist Threat: The Dangerous Rise of Secular Extremists, himself formerly a militant atheist, describes the New Atheists’ uncritical devotion to science, their childish understanding of religion, their extreme Islamophobia, and intolerance of cultural diversity. All of this provides a rationalization for American imperialism vis-à-vis the Muslim world."

  • __Warren__||

    As an atheist myself I very long ago gave up on going to atheist functions as the percentage of embittered dickbags in attendance was too high for there to be enough fun available.

    Of course now I realize that they may have just been leftists.

  • SQRLSY One||

    About that them thar atheism v/s agnosticism thang…

    I used to wonder a lot, but I had my agnostic friends convince me that God, if He does exist, does NOT want us to worship Him, because He does not believe in Himself (He needs self-esteem counseling, I was told). If God doesn’t believe in Himself, then we obviously shouldn’t, either. I was left to wonder, well then, WHO in the Hell is qualified to give self-esteem counseling to God Himself?!?! Never got an answer…

    Then my devout atheist friends convinced me, that to get to Athiest Heaven, one had to NOT believe in God, and do that non-believing thing in JUST the EXACT right way… As for example, they’d say, “See, Madeline Murray O’Hair, SHE is the ONLY one who REALLY quite properly, understood EXACTLY how God does NOT believe in Himself, and only SHE in Her Divine (Anti-Divine?) Perfect Understanding, was fit to be “Ruptured” through the space-time vortex portal, straight to the Athiest Heaven that She deserved, and all the rest of us… Even the less-than-perfect atheists… Are “Left Behind” after the “Great Rupture”.

  • SQRLSY One||

    And since Madeline Murray’s body was never found, I had to accept their argument, She was the PERFECT atheist, and only SHE, in Her Perfect Disbelief, had been Ruptured… Her and Her alone… to be continued…

    …BUT THEN THEY FOUND HER DEAD BODY!!! The arguments of my atheist friends were utterly crushed! I had just BARELY started to think that maybe they were correct! Now, I just dunno WHAT in blazes to think any more!!! What do y’all say, especially you atheists?

  • Nutella2||

    "Get the people away from religion" -- Vlad Lenin

  • straffinrun||

    Hmmm. The atheists I come across tend to be more of the "diversity is good because, um, diversity" crowd. Also they bang the drum that Islam is a religion of peace so on. I'm with Adam Corolla on this one: I'd be happier to see some christians move in next door than a strident atheist. Ned Flanders is a great neighbor.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    The atheists I come across tend to be more of the "diversity is good because, um, diversity" crowd

    The irony is that a lot of those types end up as unwitting shock troops in the gentrification wars.

  • Tak Kak||

    Sample: "C.J. Werleman, in The New Atheist Threat: The Dangerous Rise of Secular Extremists, himself formerly a militant atheist, describes the New Atheists’ uncritical devotion to science, their childish understanding of religion, their extreme Islamophobia, and intolerance of cultural diversity. All of this provides a rationalization for American imperialism vis-à-vis the Muslim world."

    Things must have changed fast, I gave up on atheists precisely because they bent over backwards to defend Islam and multiculturalism. They also wouldn't even give my defense of imperialism a chance!

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "The University of Sheffield Atheist, Secularist and Humanist Society (SASH) has turned down a suggestion by a student to invite Maryam Namazie to speak at the university. The reason? Her ‘hard anti-Islamist approach’ is not ‘conducive’ to the direction that the society wishes to go in."

  • Notorious UGCC||

  • The Hyperbole||

    Earlier Someguy had an idea

    Here's my quick take 11-9-16

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - Gov. Terry McAuliffe vetoed a bill on Thursday that prevents cities and local jurisdictions from removing Civil War monuments....

    "The NAACP sent a letter to the governor asking him to veto this bill saying it was "unabashedly disguised" and "unscrupulously forwarded" to his desk. The letter claimed the bill "is an attempt to praise and glorify what the bill's proponents want to call the "War Between the States" (1861-1865)."

    "The letter went on to describe the war as "an armed rebellion against the Government of the United States" and "an attempt to continue the unglorified commerce of slavery."

    ""You know localities in Virginia they need the flexibility to get rid of these monuments and to get rid of these symbols of hate..." said Mike Dickinson, who is running for the local 7th Congressional District seat."

  • __Warren__||

    So Virginia has a different Limitation of Statues than other states?

  • Tak Kak||

    ""You know localities in Virginia they need the flexibility to get rid of these monuments and to get rid of these symbols of hate..." said Mike Dickinson, who is running for the local 7th Congressional District seat."

    I wonder if Mike would be okay with cities erecting more monuments?

    Still, I think McAuliffe is correct here and the state has no business getting involved. (Of course, the monuments should be left alone.)

  • Nutella2||

    Symbols of hate: closed Mexican, Chinese, Indian, and Russian borders.

    These countries must ooen their borders to American workers now.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "The federal prosecution of criminal and civil rights violations in two remote towns on the Utah-Arizona border suggests that Americans – and their law enforcement agencies – are quickly erasing cultural taboos against prosecuting polygamous sects in the US....

    "...The jury found that the towns sabotaged people considered threats, that the police departments harassed and intimidated nonbelievers, and that local officials denied services to new residents from outside the faith....

    "“The critical thing to pay attention to is in the politically charged rhetoric of religious liberty, what’s often left in the background is that fact that no theocracy may exist in the United States, and in [Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah] you had government operating as pure theocracy,” [constitutional law] Professor [Marci] Hamilton [of Yeshiva University] says. “In other words, you had to be a true believer to have the firetruck show up at your burning house.”"

  • kbolino||

    “In other words, you had to be a true believer to have the firetruck show up at your burning house.”

    That would seem to be a genuine 1A violation, but I'm not sure what it has to do with prosecuting polygamy.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    OK, then, talk amongst yourselves.

  • SIV||

  • Tak Kak||

    Even more proof that he's basically Hitler.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "Students say there is no place for Trump on this diverse campus"

    An accurate paraphrase, I'm afraid.

    ""There's hate in that pavilion," says protester Sophia Sarabia. "We believe with our prayer and our drums, we can overcome this hate with love. God is love.""

    Good going, Sophia, you just earned Trump a million votes. Now celebrate by taking a shower.

  • JFree||

    What we really need is an anti-crony immigration program for CEO's to drive down the price of CEO's. For every CEO like Zuckerberg/etc who advocates for their little pet exploitation visa, we allow the immigration of 4 cheaper/smarter CEO's from overseas - and they can each bring in five executives/etc to either start a business here or clean out the exec offices wherever they are hired. US CEO's are paid 5-10x more than CEO's in other countries. US CEO's are far more out of touch with their own workforces (foreign CEO's are often ashamed to collect huge bonuses just for laying off other employees - and their pay levels are much (like multiples) closer to the average employee). They are far friendlier to shareholders because foreign CEO's didn't manage to crony their own governments into milking the options trough so freely. They actually deliver almost identical results in terms of profit increase over time - in the context of usually far more difficult circumstances (smaller markets, more regulation, etc).

    So why doesn't anyone advocate more immigration at the top of ladder?

  • kbolino||

    A lot of the hot-shot CEOs are founders. Zuckerberg founded Facebook (setting aside disputes about the founding of that company).

    As far as other CEOs are concerned, the board of directors picks the CEO, and the shareholders pick the board. Perhaps you should ask them?

  • JFree||

    You are a bit deluded about CEO's/boards/shareholders today.

    CEO's pick the boards. Shareholders are irrelevant since a majority of shares are now owned by ETF's, index funds, or closet index funds - and none of them even vote their proxies (but can't sell either). Most of the remainder of shares are managed by agents/intermediaries (not actual principals with money at stake) who are a separate part of the companies that are also selling a)pension mgmt or b)mezzanine financing or c)merger financing or d)debt issuance to buyback shares to offset option issuance or e)expansion financing or f)are the CEO's next door neighbor and none of which have any incentive to piss off the CEO. IF a shareholder is actually so inclined to challenge the CEO (or even make corporate governance meaningful); then they will find themselves faced with a poison pill provision or some other BS that makes it impossible for them to launch anything remotely deemed 'hostile'.

    Corporate governance in the US is a complete corrupt sham now (due almost entirely to CEO's and other agents paying pols to do their bidding here). The reason CEO's are paid less in every other country is because corporate governance has not been corrupted there - so shareholders still run things there the way you mistakenly believe they run things here.

  • kbolino||

    Nothing you said contradicts or even really addresses what I said.

    Elected officials are elected by popular vote, not chosen by CEOs. I have no doubt they have cozy relationships with each other; why don't you ask your neighbors why they keep voting for such blatantly corrupt politicians?

    And yeah, most shares are held by funds nowadays. Why is that? Oh, that's right, it's because the elected officials have debased the currency, discouraged savings, and by hook and by crook pushed pensions and retirement accounts onto the stock market.

    But your pension/retirement account is still ultimately governed by you. If you really think corporate governance is so fucked up because of ETFs, then stop putting money into your 401k/IRA. As to the penalty you would face for taking your money out "early", or the treatment of large sums of cash by the police, well look again at who's at fault--elected officials.

  • JFree||

    You really are a pure ideologue aren't you. It's like reading a commie but substituting a different enemy.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    You're missing a big point. Stockholder elections are not one man, one vote affairs. It's more a one vote per share deal. One CEO holding a million shares trumps 999,999 stockholders who each own 1 share. Thus, if the CEO and friends own a majority of the shares, he effectively appoints who he damn well pleases. The election is merely a formality.

  • ||

    I think you have a point about managerial capitalism as opposed to entrepreneurial capitalism, but your example was Zuckerberg who founded the company.

  • JFree||

    Probably should've used someone else. But I do despise Zuckerberg and Facebook anyway - so he's responsible for the first 4 CEO immigrants under that new program.

  • hurts_donut||

    God damn riot is about to break out
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTEbEEwoJg

  • __Warren__||

    Ah, politics!

  • ||

    Trump's call to shut down the H-1B visa program is just the sort of zero-sum thinking that really will ensure slower job growth and make Americans poorer.

    Yeah, we wouldn't want to derail this gravy train

    2015, Q4 1.0% $18.15 trillion
    2015, Q3 2.0% $18.06 trillion
    2015, Q2 3.9% $17.91 trillion
    2015, Q1 0.6% $17.65 trillion

  • Nutella2||

    USA has lost THIRTY MILLION JOBS since the H-1B visa caps were increased in 1998 and 2001. Americans are already a lot poorer.

    USA was BOOMING and prosperous in 1998 when Americans ran things. USA doesn't need any more parasites.

  • Nutella2||

  • Nutella2||

    InfoSys High Level Meetings:

    "WE WILL DUMP 6 MILLION INDIANS INTO THE US AND CAPTURE THEIR ENTIRE IT MARKET AND NO AMERICAN WILL EVER COME TO KNOW ABOUT THIS. WE WILL THROW THESE AMERICANS OUT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY".

  • Nutella2||

    "Loot and remit" Indians are not qualified to work in IT.

  • ||

    Traveling 10,000 miles to get a job, then doing that job is looting?

  • buybuydandavis||

    Actually the program raises native worker wages and has no significant effects on native employment according to three economists in their 2014 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper.

    The economic laws of supply and demand are magically suspended because OPEN BORDERZ!

    Don't you folks ever get embarrassed by spouting such nonsense?

    Do you fail to see you're doing just the same thing that liberals do with their "studies" on how the minimum wage never costs anyone their job?

    Perhaps you should give a ring to all those former Disney employees. I'm sure they'll be happy to know that their layoff had "no significant effects on native employment".

  • Troup||

    As a former trainer of foreign replacement workers on h-1b and l-1b visas I find this article to be --Is Reason.com like TheOnion.com?

    I left mid-training once I landed another job, for considerably less income, but at least I had insurance for my handicapped child.

    The replacement of well-educated American workers has been going on for a very long time. CBS 48 hours, in 1995 reported AIG Ins replaced 100s of Americans with h -1b visa holders.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW8r3LoI8M4

    Our replacement was in 2002, Siemens ICN, Lake Mary, Fl with TATA India Inc employees.

    My 2004 house testimony
    http://commdocs.house.gov/comm....._0.HTM#104

  • ||

    This comment thread really proves how so many people who say they only oppose illegal immigration are really opposed to the legal kind too. H1b visas are one of the few routes to legal immigration, since they allow employers to hire someone for a trial period before deciding if they want to go all in and spend tens of thousands of dollars on the multi year process of formally applying for a green card. The standard path to a green card via employer sponsorship is F1-h1b-green card.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    So? Is there a law against being opposed to immigration?

  • ||

    No. It's just that you people keep saying that you are ONLY opposed to the "illegal" kind. And if only those immigrants would follow the legal process, they would be welcome.
    You're not, and they aren't.

  • buybuydandavis||

    "You people!"

    Every prominent anti-immigration voice takes great pains to point out that the real issue is legal immigration.

    See Ann Coulter and Mark Steyn for details.

    Even nobodies like me point it out. I do it around here all the time.

  • ||

    I guess all those comment threads in which I was repeatedly assured that it was only *llegal* immigration that was the problem were just a big hallucination.

  • Nativist, Racist & Xenophobe||

    His reference to Disney stems from the lawsuit in which 250 workers claim that the entertainment company replaced them illegally by hiring H-1B visa holders. The courts will decide if the company violated the law in this instance.

    Putting aside whether it was against the law, that fact is that they did it. If the claim is that H-1B's are earning comparably to American workers, and not undercutting American wages, then you have to ask why did they do it?

    Having known a number of people who worked that account, I know for sure that the level of competence of those workers were higher than average, and if Disney had needs for any specialized and rare skills, surely the people who already had experience with that environment would have been better equipped to handle them than foreign workers with no experience with it.

    So if these claims are true, then why did Disney replace a capable domestic staff with a foreign one? What was the incentive?

  • AlmightyJB||

    My understanding if I'm thinking of the same case is that they brought these wotkers over, had American workers train them so then they could go back home and train people at a new offshore facility. After the offshore facility was up and running, the American workers were promptly fired. As I understand it, this is specifically prohibited by the H1B program.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I think the program was written that it cannot be used to replace domestic workers, only to fill needs that can't be filled due to lack of workers. Obviously, it's being used to replace domestic workers at lower wages. As has been pointed out, Reason's economic argument about supply not impacting price is as dumb as the left's minimum wage claims. That being said, the better solution is to give akilled workers a way to come here and work in an actual free market scenario, ie employers have no government hammer that allows them ro repress salaries under threat of deportation. Then Foreign workers and Amerucan workers can then compete for these jobs in a natural labor/wage market. If employer's want to offshore, they are still free to do so. But if they hire foreign workers and train them here, there is no reason those workers once trained can't just go apply at another company here. Takes away the whole Indentured Servant aspect.

  • jake leone||

    Most H-1b visas are used by Offshore Outsourcing companies to remove jobs from the United States.

    The replacement of workers at Disney was NOT illegal. It was entirely legal, so don't spread falsehoods about what happened, realize clearly what is going can occur that way because the laws that made the H-1b allow it.

    Offshore Outsourcing companies use more than half the available H-1b visas. Our domestic tech originating companies have a hard time getting an H-1b visa because Offshore Outsourcing companies game the system and stuff in an excess number of H-1b visa requests, thereby forcing a lottery.

    If Offshore Outsourcing companies were barred from the H-1b system, as they should be, we would never have seen a year, since inception, where we ran out of H-1b visas.

    Anyone who worries for one second that without H-1b visa we will lose business, needs to realize that the H-1b visa made the 100 billion dollar year India-based Offshore Outsourcing business. H-1b has moved thousands of departments Offshore destroying hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of American jobs.

    The Offshore Outsourcing companies bring in only trainees, that are trained by better qualified American workers. The American workers are then fired and the whole department is moved Offshore.

    The killer app for the H-1b visa is Offshore Outsourcing, that is how most H-1b visas are used, and you can't deny it.

    H-1b is called the Outsourcing visa in India.

    Get it right.

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