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Donald Trump Is a Bad Person

His presidential campaign is driven by his penchant for uncivil and obnoxious behavior.

Gage skidmore / FoterGage skidmore / FoterCan there be any doubt now that Donald Trump is a fascist?

His declaration yesterday that he would close the United States to all Muslim immigrants, including tourists and Muslim American citizens abroad trying to return home, confirmed both his fascistic tendencies and his undisguised bigotry, and made something else clear in the process: that he is simply a bad person.

As much as anything, this is the undercurrent that runs throughout the stories that have defined Trump since the beginning of his campaign: He mocked Vietnam POW John McCain for being captured during the war; he lobbed sexist jibes at Fox News host Megyn Kelly for daring to confront him about his history of misogyny; he mocked a disabled reporter, then falsely claimed he’d never met the man; he smeared immigrants as rapists; he’s Tweeted snide remarks about the wife of one of his competitors; when the crowd attacked a Black Lives Matter protestor at Trump campaign event last month, Trump sided with the crowd, saying he “should have been roughed up”; he insisted, contrary to all evidence, that thousands of Muslims celebrated the terror attack of 9/11 on camera; he lies constantly, flagrantly, and without shame.

The connecting tissue here is that, given practically any opportunity, Donald Trump will act in the most obnoxious and unpleasant way possible.

He is consistently ungracious and egotistical, and he is prone to insults and bullying when challenged. He is xenophobic and bigoted. He does not tell the truth when called on his insults. He has the maturity level of a middle-school bully, but with less sophistication about policy.

You can see that in the Trump campaign’s most visible product, his Twitter account, which is, rather famously, filled with insults: Those he does not like are tagged as losers, morons, bores, and low-energy people. Insults and petty slights are the lens through which he views the world. He is chronically, compulsively rude and uncivil with strangers and competitors alike. And by all appearances, he seems to enjoy it. His campaign is an expansion and extension of his Twitter feed. 

That gleeful, unapolagetic incivility is at the root of what makes him a bad person, and also at the root his approach to politics and policy. Most of his proposals, to the limited extent that they can be understood as remotely serious, are insults in policy form. 

In addition to last night’s ban on Muslim travel to the U.S., he has called for the forcible government closure of mosques. When asked recently, he said Muslims should be tracked via government database. He promised that as president he would simply deport 11 million immigrants in short order after taking office, an impossible maneuver intended mostly to demonstrate his disdain for immigrants. He does not merely want to deport people who came to United States illegally; he also wants to deport millions of their children. He has repeatedly voiced enthusiastic support for federal seizure of private property through eminent domain, and, as a real estate investor, taken advantage of it himself.

Each of these moves are designed to denigrate some individual or some group: Muslims, immigrants, the children of people he does not like, private property owners who do not agree with Donald Trump’s real estate. These are power plays that put one party down while elevating and empowering Trump, the man and the brand. He is not just an authoritarian; he is an authoritarian narcissist. (It’s no accident that his speeches almost always involve lengthy disquisitions into his poll numbers.)

Trump’s penchant for authoritarianism frequently blends with his total lack of interest in the operational details of his policies, as well as the fact that he simply appears to be wildly uninformed about the world.

In a campaign speech last night, for example, Trump not only repeated his declaration that Muslims should not be allowed into the country, he said that the United States might have close to down the Internet in some places in order to stop terrorism.

"We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

Every bit of this is dumb. It starts dumb, and then gets dumber. It is like a mad lib designed to show how dumb Donald Trump is about tech companies, the Internet, federal power, freedom of speech, and the Constitution, all at once.

And it is dumb in a particular way that helps demonstrate what a bad person he is. It is not just that he says stupid things that demonstrate his ignorance. It is that, in his stupidity and ignorance, he only ever imagines doing awful, authoritarian things, the way a bad person would.

Being a bad person, however, is a big part of Trump’s considerable political appeal. When he read out his proposal to implement a “total and complete shutdown” of Muslims from entering the country at an event last night, he received a sustained, standing ovation. The vapid, off-the-cuff, reality-TV fascism he is peddling works, at least for the moment, because he sells it with his persona.

That persona is what drives his fans, and also his campaign. And its centrality to his political success and policy agenda is what makes it so important to understand. The easy mistake to make is to think that Donald Trump is a bad person because he is a dull, fascist bully. The better way to understand Trump is the other way around: He is a dull, fascist bully because he is a bad person. 

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  • R C Dean||

    Can there be any doubt now that Donald Trump is a fascist?

    Was there ever any doubt?

  • Racist, Xenophobe & Nativist||

    If you're going to keep calling the only people who are actually making concrete policy proposals fascists, I predict the only thing you'll accomplish is making fascism popular.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    Donald Trump is the only person making concrete policy proposals? Really?

  • ||

    He's the only one making fascist policy proposals. Which is apparently what gets some people all wet in their panties.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Which is apparently what gets some people all wet in their panties.

    What some of us do in our panties is our business.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Fascist policy proposals are the only effective policy proposals. Duh. Everything else is fairy dust bullshit.

  • Quixote||

    There is indeed an excellent case to be made for the efficacy of some of the law-enforcement policies enacted under so-called "fascist" regimes. Today's American mafia families are descendants of certain individuals who fled to this country from Sicily during Mussolini's years in office. In our ongoing efforts to suppress the insidious Trolls and "satirists" of the net, we can certainly learn a great deal by studying some of the tools used by the governments of Russia, China, and several other countries to keep this trash under control. We have made some progress in New York, but it isn't yet enough. See the documentation of America's leading criminal "satire" case at:

    http://raphaelgolbtrial.wordpress.com/

  • Lord at War||

    Other than the "other" self-identified "nationalist" "socialist" in the race?

    What? Not one single Reason article on Sanders' trade and monetary policy?

    I'm shocked...

  • timbo||

    There is not much to report on a guy who admits to being a communist.

    Trump on the other hand is a very loud wolf in sheep's clothing.

    The biggest danger to humanity is a guy who says he is a capitalist when he is actually another massive fascist. Like bush for example and the rest of the repubs in Washington.

    These are the psychos that usher in the next castro or, perhaps, another arrogant Marxists windbag like that dipshit obama.

  • Maldoror||

    Well, fascist made concrete policy proposals. Fascist proposals. There is no contradiction there.

  • Brandybuck||

    That phrase. Concrete policy proposals. I don't think it means what you think it means.

  • kbolino||

    Somehow, Donald Trump is simultaneously:

    1. Making "concrete policy proposals"
    2. Asking for more than he ever expects to get as a "negotiation tactic"
    3. Not to be taken seriously and doesn't mean anything he says

    He's Schroedinger's Politician

  • Bob Meyer||

    So we won't know what he is until we open the box? Some boxes should be burned and never opened.

  • Inigo Montoya, Micro-Aggressor||

    As an individual, he embodies Nancy Pelosi's legislative philosophy: "You have to first pass it to find out what it's about."

    He needs to be elected to reveal just how fascist he will go. E.g., will he stop at mandatory moon and crescent clothing patches for all muzzies or go for a full-on final solution? Will he simply label all who question him as "losers" or will his loyal brownshirts beat them to death on street corners?

  • Michael Price||

    . But we have to elect the Donald so that you can find out what is in it,

  • Michael Price||

    Dammit, Inigo Montoya struck before me. Unlike his father.

  • Mickey Rat||

    I might go with bigot as "Muslim" is not a race.

  • Mickey Rat||

    Misread. Please disregard.

  • ant1sthenes||

    I think the main impact of Trump will be shifting the Overton window on immigration. A lot of attitudes that might have once been viewed as crazy and right wing will seem moderate in comparison with his bullshit.

  • TruthHurts||

    No Doubt What So Ever. Donald Trump is so far from being Fascist that your accusation is a comedy...

  • EndTheGOP||

    Here's a newsflash for you Peter Suderman:

    All politicians are liars and "bad person[s]!"

    Obama lied about Obama Care. He is bad for pulling out of Iraq after all of our misbegotten gains and then allowing ISIS to infiltrate our country and kill our citizens.

    George W Bush is bad for taking us into two stupid wars and lying about one of them.

    George H Bush lied about raising taxes.

    I could go on and on and on. What's your fucking point Peter? As usual, you don't have one.

    Here's the lowdown for all of you knuckleheads associated with Reason:

    Hillary will win the election in 2016 and bring the senate with her. She will nominate 2 or 3 supreme court justices giving the court a decidedly socialist slant. The socialists will have won and the country is going to be living the lifestyle of the 1950 Russians!

    IT'S ALL OVER FOLKS!

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    So long as you people let the Lame Stream Media press lead you around by the nose, you will get their choice of president i.e. Clinton.
    Do your thinking, I'll leave it there.

  • EndTheGOP||

    ConstitutionFirst -- What the fuck are you talking about? Is there anything I stated you disagree with? If so, then state your disagreement.

    You have no idea where I get my news and analysis from but that doesn't stop you from dribbling on. Obviously you think Reason is part of the LSM because you know I read it and yet you make your asinine assertions.

    I DARE you to debate me on any subject! Make my day.

  • beaker55||

    @RCDean: Actually, Jimmy Carter did the equivalent in 1979. Ordered his Attorney General to round up Iranian students living in the U.S. and deported nearly 15,000. No heartburn from the bleeding heart media back then.... Such hypocrisy never ceases to entertain.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Which mixed-economy, antichoice, mystical republican prohibitionist isn't a fascist? In the 1940s a fascist was a christian socialist. Has something changed?

  • John||

    Two tings, what politician is a good person? Second, what difference does it make?

    I think what people like Suderman are missing about the Trump phenomena is that his supporters don't view him being a bad person as a problem. Sure he is an asshole but his supporters see him as their asshole. They don't support him because they like him. They support him because they dislike people like Suderman and pretty much everyone else in Washington and view Trump as a vehicle for obtaining revenge.

    Really, the question Suderman should be asking is not "is Trump a bad person". He should be asking "why do they hate us so much they would support someone like Trump?".

  • Hugh Akston||

    So why do you hate Suderman so much that you support Trump, John?

  • John||

    Why did your grade school teachers fail you so badly that you never learned to read and instead just guess at what the words mean? I don't support Trump. You just think I do because you are illiterate I guess.

  • Hugh Akston||

    You're right John, how could I possibly make that mistake? "People" support Trump, not you. I should know that by now since you show up in every single Trump thread telling us how and why "people" support Trump. Every single time anyone says a negative thing about Trump you remind us that "people" find his views compelling for reasons that are strikingly similar to arguments you make in other contexts. "People" are scared shitless of Muslims; you're scared shitless of Muslims. "People" hate immigrants and want to deport them; you hate immigrants and want to deport them. "People" support Trump and you just happen to leap to his defense every time his name is mentioned.

    Oh, and when you're called on your mendacity, you resort to middle school insults. I can't imagine how I could have mistaken you for a Trump supporter.

  • ||

    That's right Hugh. You need to be reminded that John has never actually SAID he supports Trump. He only shows up to defend every idiotic thing Trump says ad nauseum and point out how much worse the Democrats are. There is absolutely nothing we can infer from that about whether or not he supports Trump.

  • Free Market Socialist $park¥||

    The correct spelling is ad nauseam.

  • Some Engineer||

    Thank God we cleared that up.

  • John||

    You made the mistake because you are an idiot who thinks that anyone who can sympathize with or understand someone's position must agree with that position. You live in a simplistic world where your ideology substitutes for thinking and you think anyone who is on the other side must be evil or unreasonable. I don't and understand what is going on and why people think they way they do even if I don't agree with it. I can admit they have legitimate points and interests. You can't. So when you see me point those things out, you assume I must be one of them.

    That is a sorry and ignorant way to go through life Hugh. You owe yourself better.

  • Suicidy||

    I don't support Trump. But I don't lose my shit over him like most of the commenters here do. I can also see why he's popular. While his statements tend to be a bit hyperbolic, he is going in the right direction. Hugh, your statements about people 'hating' immigrants are also hyperbolic. and ridiculous.

    Most people have no direct antipathy towards immigrants. But they are tired of tens of millions of foreigners shitting on our sovereignty with the blessing and aid of the Obama and his prog pals. Most people don't hate Muslims, but are tired of radical islamic bullshit. These are reasonable positions. But you won't hear if it. Open borders for all I suppose. Even though THAT is a radical, and unconstitutional position.

    Most people don't give a shit about immigrants, muslims, etc.. They're just tired of being shit on by them, and want it to stop. Trump actually says he will put a stop to that kind of bullshit. So Trump is popular. I personally find a number of his positions troubling, not to mention the fact that I see no likelihood that he would scale back the scope and size of government. But I don't freak out over the mention of the man's name and start foaming at the mouth either.

  • MWG||

    "Most people don't give a shit about immigrants, muslims, etc.. They're just tired of being shit on by them, and want it to stop."

    Nothing hyperbolic in this statement.

  • kbolino||

    They're just tired of being shit on by them, and want it to stop

    Amazingly, people will somehow get enough power over the government to keep out the people doing all this "shitting on" but not to fix any of the problems with government that enable one group of people to "shit on" another group of people.

    Why, it's as though they like being able to fuck with people, and to watch people they don't like get fucked with, but aren't too keen on being fucked with themselves.

    So much for the Enlightenment.

  • Calidissident||

    Deporting US citizens and banning travel by other US citizens on the basis of religion is moving in the right direction?

  • Robert||

    Hell, I'm not a Trump supporter either, but the strident anti-Trump atmosphere here calls for some kind of response from those who find it weird & out of character. I just took http://votesmart.org/voteeasy/# for an emotion-free take on things & found out, as I thought, that on policy Trump's not so bad at all. He doesn't beat the band, but he's no fascist either.

    So the whole question is, do you fall for posturing to the extent that manners is the most important thing to judge a politician by? If so, is good manners or bad manners better? Trump went for the pro-asshole vote, & decisively beat Christie for it.

  • plusafdotcom||

    Oh, shit, guys and gals... I'm tired of this... Ok, Suderman... you made it painfully clear whom you're NOT going to vote for.

    So what?

    Everywhere I look, I hear the MASSES of Americans polling Positive for Trump, and the reason tends to be that "he tells it like it is" and "he's NOT LIKE ALL the Other Politicians"!

    Get a fucking clue.... You and I are NOT part of those "masses" and those Masses are the same people who elected Obama to the WH TWICE. Your reasons, Suderman's preferences and rationales are irrelevant!

    Trump has hit the nerves of a ton of the US Electorate! You can bitch and moan all you want, but it gets him elected, let alone nominated... tough shit on all your 'reasons' !

    Personally, I respect Trump for his straightforward, tell it like it is style. I've found that just about Every Politician, congressmonkey and President in My 7-year Lifetime has done nothing but sling the shit about what they believe and they all make promises they never keep.

    It's not for no reason that I consider Obama the WPE, despite the hoards that idolize or worship him. He's slime in my view, and that's based on the actions he's demonstrated over the past decade or so. A Peter-Principle'd-Out second stringer, put in office by money and power and votes from people who couldn't exhibit Critical Thinking if their lives depended on it... in fact, they'd rather depend on Government to make ALL the important decisions in their lives!

  • plusafdotcom||

    Fucking Continued...

    So you can call Trump all the names you want, but if The Masses find his Direct Approach more appealing than anyone else's typical political bullshit delivery, Trump May Win.

    Every presidential election since I've been old enough to vote has been 'weirder and weirder than the last one," and this one is demonstrating to me to be just raising the weirdness bar more than any that have gone before.

    I find Trump's un-political, un-PC style to be downright Refreshing. I tend to prefer Management Types who DON'T sit on their ass or hands when Action is needed. Putin's done a wonderful job of showing everyone what that kind of Leader might look like. No, I'm not a socialist or communist, and there's No Fucking Way I'd ever trade my US lifestyle for life in Putin's world.... but Obama's been the biggest pussy we've had in the WH in scores of years.

    If he CAN surround himself with good advisers (compare O's track record on That, ok?) he might even be 'good for the country' in the long run.

    I've got some relatives who are totally upset NOW that Trump Might Be Elected... and he hasn't even been Nominated YET!

    Live in the fucking Present, kids... watch the circus acts roll out for most of the next year. THEN decide whom you'd like to vote for. Until, then it's just more Bread and Circuses for the Masses.

    Cheers, and Enjoy!
    +af

  • ||

    Sure he is an asshole but his supporters see him as their asshole. They don't support him because they like him. They support him because they dislike people like Suderman and pretty much everyone else in Washington and view Trump as a vehicle for obtaining revenge.

    Pretty sure Suderman's whole post was about how Trump's followers like him because he's a bad person, because they're bad people too.

  • Suicidy||

    Yes, because everyone that isn't an open borders kook, and is against the government spending billions of dollars to import Islamic refugees by the hundreds of thousands is a hysterical monster who wants to kill brown people i their heart. Right. If that is Reason's official position then good luck attracting people to libertarianism. Because that is a kook fringe position.

  • MWG||

    "Because that is a kook fringe position."

    As opposed to deporting millions. That right there makes sens

  • JW||

    That must be it, John. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with rock-banging troglodytes considering him one of them.

  • John||

    That is right. Everyone who disagrees with you is just a troglodyte. They have no valid interests and should thank you for telling them to fuck off and settle for having no voice whatsoever in their government or politics.

    God damn it don't these people know their place?

  • JW||

    No John, they're troglodytes because they're fairly stupid, harbor violent fantasies of racial and theological warfare, are economically retarded, want a return to an authoritarian state and pretty much just plain, fucking evil.

    You probably overlooked that in your haste to prove your worthiness to the tribe.

  • John||

    Yes JW. If only top men like you were running things. How Libertarian of you.

    And regardless, the sad fact is you are stuck in a country that was built around giving everyone, even stupid people you hate and think should know their place a voice. So, the problem is how do you deal with their concerns in a good way. Here is a hint, telling them to fuck off and how stupid they are for not doing what you tell them, is not likely to work.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "If only top men like you were running things."

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    "Here is a hint, telling them to fuck off and how stupid they are for not doing what you tell them, is not likely to work."

    Worked with gay marriage. There's no reason we can't work with Liberals to bury these "people".

  • JW||

    Your choo-choo really has gone chugging around the bend, John.

    It must be smugly satisfying to inhabit a world where you can shrug off real, honest to Zod evil as nothing more than a cold shoulder at a cocktail party over those toothless rubes.

  • JW||

    Here is a hint, telling them to fuck off and how stupid they are for not doing what you tell them, is not likely to work.

    Here's another hint: Don't be a fascist idiot fuckdoll and you won't be seen as one.

  • ||

    Did someone say fuckdoll? I am interested.

  • John||

    JW

    Do you honestly think anyone who thinks we should limit Muslim immigration into this country is a fascist? Have you raped the meaning of the word so much and put so much of your self esteem into your ideology that you actually believe that?

    Think about what you are saying here. We have Muslims killing people all over the world including thousand inside the US over the last 20 years and when someone says "maybe we should not let any or very many Muslims into the US anymore" your response to them is that they are just a fascist?

    If that is your position, I will just leave it at that because I cannot imagine arguing you into a more self evidently idiotic one. If that is the best defense of your ideological rigidity you can offer, you maybe need to rethink your ideology.

  • JW||

    Do you honestly think anyone who thinks we should limit Muslim immigration into this country is a fascist?

    Yes. Next question?

    Have you raped the meaning of the word so much and put so much of your self esteem into your ideology that you actually believe that?

    The meaning of the word is still very much intact. Most people had forgotten in until Trump and his goose-steppers made it popular again.

    We have Muslims killing people all over the world including thousand inside the US over the last 20 years and when someone says "maybe we should not let any or very many Muslims into the US anymore" your response to them is that they are just a fascist?

    Yes John. "Hundreds of millions of Muslims didn't kill anyone this week." It's funny what happens to your brain when you let collectivism do your thinking for you. I'll continue to treat people as individuals, even as you eagerly run the Goon Squad.

    If that is your position, I will just leave it at that because I cannot imagine arguing you into a more self evidently idiotic one

    You've done that quite effectively, John. Stop sniffing your own farts and you might realize that.

  • JW||

    You've done that quite effectively, John, with your own arguments.

    Sheesh

  • PM||

    The meaning of the word is still very much intact. Most people had forgotten in until Trump and his goose-steppers made it popular again.

    Or possibly a lot of people are really bad at recognizing economic fascism and suddenly had an epiphany only when the nationalistic aspects became more prominent.

  • Suicidy||

    John, most of these people are unreasoning open borders kooks. they have no rational positions in these things, much like the progtards. Look at how quickly they resort to shrill cries of racism when you stray from their groupthink. Just like a bunch of progtarded college kids. Just stop micro-egressing them and leave them to their safe spaces.

  • ||

    There are are sorts of people who disagree with me who aren't xenophobic fascists, Tony included.

  • John||

    Sure Hazel. And nothing says confidence in your position like just summarily calling everyone on the other side a fascist. And that is all you od on these threads. Just make assertions and appeal to your "principles" like they are handed down from God or undeniably self evident, which they are neither.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Here comes passive-aggressive John. I can't believe this whiny little bitch actually served in the army. Do they not have standards?

  • PM||

    Limiting membership in the world's military forces to people with whom you agree might put a little bit of a damper on your plans for the permanent occupation of the middle east.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Since I have no such plans you should probably fuck yourself instead of saying dumb shit.

  • PM||

    Gotta hand it to you, that's the most cogent argument I've ever seen you make.

  • Suicidy||

    I doubt you have the stones to serve in much of anything. Shrill asshole.

  • MWG||

    "I doubt you have the stones to serve in much of anything. Shrill asshole."

    So says one of the chief pants shitters on this site.

  • Lord at War||

    I can't believe this whiny little bitch actually served in the army. Do they not have standards?

    I know a certain little whiny bitch who never served... because, standards.

  • PM||

    I don't think there's actually all that terribly much about which you disagree with Tony, so maybe a bad example.

  • notJoe||

    Re: Tony, wouldn't a racists be a subset of xenophobes? Because he is definitely the former...

  • ||

    There are are sorts of people who disagree with me who aren't xenophobic fascists, Tony included.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    Maybe the people who support Trump are the bad guys here and shouldn't be given a pass anymore than Islamic extremists should be given a pass because Islamophobia made them feel bad.

  • Cytotoxic||

    *Insert victim complex screed from John or other area retard*

  • BakedPenguin||

    Are you going to start talking about cocktail parties, John?

  • Robert||

    It does look like that's what Suderman's about in the case of Trump. Trump is a "bad person" because he's outre. A gangster w good manners would be preferable at cocktail parties, hence a "good person".

  • GregMax||

    They say that the ambient temperature of a developing frog egg determines the gender. It's interesting to watch the self-identifying libertarians morph into leftist bigots when Trump is introduced into the conversation. It's almost comic. You also see the leftist morph from establishment "Republicans" as well.
    The tell is the pattern of distraction, declaration, derision and denial that is almost a hallmark of Democratic input.
    Ah well. Reason and rational argument apparently go out the window as soon as the boogeyman shows.

  • ||

    Yes, everyone who opposes institutionalized religious discrimination is a "leftist".

  • GregMax||

    No, it's the quality of their discourse I'm referencing. NOWHERE have I endorsed "institutionalized religious discrimination".
    Most of the Trump haters here present absolutely no rational argument why he is bad, why his campaign antics are bad. They just express their conclusions and they are usually fear based, ill-informed and lame.

  • JW||

    Most of the Trump haters here present absolutely no rational argument why he is bad, why his campaign antics are bad. They just express their conclusions and they are usually fear based, ill-informed and lame.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAA!!!

    Can you project over there? [points] The light isn't that good in that corner.

  • GregMax||

    I guess your way to smart for me to understand your wit. Sorry.

  • JW||

    I guess your way to smart for me to understand your wit

    Looks like.

  • GregMax||

    Then we're in agreement? You're smart; I'm stoopid.

  • B. Woodrow Chippenhaus||

    Most of the Trump haters here present absolutely no rational argument why he is bad, why his campaign antics are bad. They just express their conclusions and they are usually fear based, ill-informed and lame.

    He said in the comments section of an article explaining in detail why Donald Trump is bad.

  • Nyarlarrythotep||

    You did read the article, didn't you?

  • Longtail||

    I suspect that there is a good reason that Libertarians don't like Donald Trump and I doubt it's because of leftist tendencies.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Brilliantly-put. Thank you for that most cogent analysis. If there were no LP I'd vote against the Inner Party out of spite and Schadenfreude.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    My favorite part of Trump's 'plan' re: Muslim immigration is that he wants custom officials to ask people 'are you Muslim' and turn them away if they say yes.

    I'm not kidding. That's it. His grand plan is thwarted immediately by anyone willing to lie about it.

  • Idle Hands||

    are you a suknee or a shit?

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    What about the 'sulfurs' or whatever they're called?

  • ||

    Well, Irish, do you have a better plan to save us or what?

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    If my plan were to have you killed on the grounds that you're the worst, do you think I could base a presidential platform on that?

  • ||

    I don't know. Not that many people know me. But we could see!

  • JW||

    Why can't they just kill them like they do when ISIS asks the same question?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You laugh, but on my wife's visa application there was a box labeled "Check if you have ever been a member of the Communist Party".

    That's our current plan to keep communists out.

  • Drake||

    Fuck, it isn't working.

  • grrizzly||

    There are also boxes asking whether a visa applicant committed genocide, were a Nazi, engaged in prostitution or any form of terrorist activity. Most people posting here are simply clueless how the US immigration system works.

  • ||

    No, we simply know it's possible for people to lie about things on forms.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    engaged in prostitution

    The term they use is actually "moral turpitude". I had to explain what that meant, and she was pissed that they would even insinuate that by including it as an item to check off.

  • ||

    In order to become a school teacher in CA, you have to sign an affidavit saying you're not a Communist.

  • Ranselaer||

    Then there must be a TON of lying public school teachers in LA alone! *bada bing*

  • Hank Phillips||

    Zing!

  • John||

    A full 76 percent of Republicans, currently Donald Trump’s target audience, see Islam’s values — and thus, presumably, the Muslims who adhere to them — as incompatible with the American way of life.

    And a majority of the general public agrees with them! 56 percent of all Americans in the survey agreed Islamic values are incompatible with American values — as a did substantial minority of Democrats (43 percent).

    http://www.vox.com/2015/12/7/9.....slam-chart

    What will those percentages be if there is another attack on a scale of 911 or if there are a series of attacks like San Bernadino and Paris?

    Laugh off Trump all you like but he is voicing an opinion a lot of Americans in both parties share. Unless you just hate Muslims and want the public to turn on them after there is another attack, you had better figure out a way to address that sentiment other than by just insulting people and pretending they are just not good people.

  • SugarFree||

    The concern for people you want to deport en masse is duly noted.

  • John||

    You tell me, what do you want? Do you know what you want other than to feel smug? Stand on your principles? Do you have any idea what to do other than tell people to fuck off and be happy to die if there is a terrorist attack?

    If you don't, then be prepared for Trump to be President if there is any kind of serious attack between now and next November. And if that happens, the country can think know nothings like you for letting it happen.

    Trump sucks but he is only doing well because he is the only one willing to address the issue.

  • SugarFree||

    Well, I don't want to deport native-born citizens. So at least I have that going for me.

  • John||

    Okay, so what do you want to do? Last I looked you were on here saying anyone who thought we shouldn't take Syrian refugees was immoral. Still think that? How about we start with not doing that? I think if we would take that issue off the table, Trump would get a lot less traction.

  • SugarFree||

    I don't pretend to have a Final Solution.

  • John||

    Come on Sugar Free. You are better than that. I am serious, what is your solution? I say we should not let the refugees in and doing that would defuse this issue and take a lot of the steam out of Trump.

    Do you think that is true? What is your position the refugees? Do you want to think about this issue or just make snarky remarks that anyone reading the thread can see is you admitting that you are wrong but are too emotional to admit it.

  • SugarFree||

    I'm the emotional one? Oh man. The projection is epic.

    By the way, how are those poor Christian bakers? Still fighting for all their religious freedoms? You know, the sort of freedoms that you want to deport Muslims over?

  • John||

    If you are not the emotional one, answer my questions. Let me say them again.

    what is your solution? I say we should not let the refugees in and doing that would defuse this issue and take a lot of the steam out of Trump.

    Do you think that is true? What is your position the refugees?

    If you are not being emotional, why can't you answer those questions? Scream about bakers all you want. But that is not what we are talking about. So, again, stop being emotional about this issue and answer my points. You can social signal about about the homo marriage issue another time.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "what is your solution?"

    STFU and get over it. Destroy ISIS and otherwise deal with it.

    "stop being emotional about this issue"

    Holy shit you're like a black hole of self-awareness.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Destroy ISIS and otherwise deal with it.

    Talk about simplistic solutions. ISIS is doing a better job of destroying Al-Qaeda than we ever did, and we're going to take them out? How, exactly?

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Okay, so what do you want to do?

    It's been done already. Two criminals violated the rights of a bunch of people. For that, they were captured and brought to justice, which is how our legal system works. Nothing more need be done. There is no problem to solve. The odd mass shooting, the odd terrorist attack is the cost of living in a free society.

    YOU propose solving a statistically non-existent problem by inhibiting liberty and repressing people who've committed no violent act.

    That makes you a monster.

  • John||

    Yes Frank. You want to do nothing. Of course you won't do anything. Killing those guys in California doesn't bring those people who died in California back to life. And it doesn't deter anyone else from killing more because these people want to die.

    You think that "well just die and we will deal with the people who killed you later" is some kind of an answer the public will accept. I am sorry to tell you they won't. They have no desire to die so that you can feel good and Muslims can freely come to this country.

    Doing nothing while an option now is not going to be an option forever. Eventually the public will take matters into their own hands if the government won't act or will support someone a thousand times worse than Trump to ensure it will.

    It is nice that you have this fantasy that doing nothing is an option. It is, however, a fantasy. So the question is what are we going to do in the real world.

  • SugarFree||

    Deporting all Muslims is "the real world."

  • JW||

    John finally gets that trip to train engineer fantasy camp.

  • SugarFree||

    John finally gets that trip to train engineer fantasy camp.

    Exactly. Trump is advocating a huge expansion of the police state in his "deport all illegal Mexicans" and "turn away all Muslims, even the native-born" and John wants to up the ante by going house to house to root out the Muslim threat.

    But we're the irrational side of the debate. Pfft.

  • JW||

    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine John stamping on a human face - forever."

  • ||

    He works at DHS, right? Perhaps this is part of job security.

  • John||

    No Sugar Free. What Trump is advocating sucks. But if you don't advocate something else other than "fuck you and die so that Muslims may come to America" you are likely to get Trump or someone much worse.

    That is my point. And you know it is true but just don't like it. So rather than deal with reality as it is, you just throw insults and call everyone a fascist. It doesn't help but it makes you feel better. So there is that.

  • Calidissident||

    Wait, now you're saying that what Trump is advocating sucks, even though you explicitly called less than a week ago for deporting all Muslims from the United States?

  • Cytotoxic||

    "I am sorry to tell you they won't."

    1) Don't care 2) You are one of the most politically inept people here. You have no idea what the public wants.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    You want to do nothing.

    We didn't do nothing. We dealt with two nutjobs via our current justice system and it was successful.

    Killing those guys in California doesn't bring those people who died in California back to life. And it doesn't deter anyone else from killing more because these people want to die.

    Neither does waging war on Muslims.

    You think that "well just die and we will deal with the people who killed you later" is some kind of an answer the public will accept.

    We've been accepting that model for 230+ years. The odds of an American being killed in a given year by a terrorist are one in 20,000,000. There are roughly 14,000 murders in this country every year. That makes the odds of being murdered one in 13,500. Your odds of being murdered are roughly 1400 times that of being killed by a terrorist.

    So who is fantasizing here?

    There simply is no problem to solve. You want to live in a free society or the 4th Reich?

  • John||

    We didn't do nothing. We dealt with two nutjobs via our current justice system and it was successful.

    No it wasn't. The people are still dead aren't they? Does killing those people bring their victims back to life? Did it prevent the attack? Does it in any way deter future nut jobs? No. Our current system got us revenge, which is nice but it was not successful in any aspect other than that.

    We've been accepting that model for 230+ years.

    No we haven't. Not in cases where crime got out of control. If people don't feel safe they will resort to their own means. You are just begging the question.

    And again, I am not proposing anything that hasn't happened before. The US has not always had open borders and there is nothing that says it has to have them now. You are allowing your fanatical commitment to open borders put our entire society and freedoms at risk. What do you think is going to happen if there is another 911 or worse? People are going to go nuts. We would be a lot better off if that didn't happen. And not letting in any Muslim who wants to come here is a step in that direction.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    No it wasn't. The people are still dead aren't they?

    Oh, I'm sorry, John...when we sentence a murderer to life in prison or execution do we often bring his victims back to life?

    If people don't feel safe



    crime got out of control

    What? ONE IN 20,000,000. The only reason people wouldn't feel safe is because of pants shitters, like you, inventing a crisis that doesn't exist.

  • John||

    Oh, I'm sorry, John...when we sentence a murderer to life in prison or execution do we often bring his victims back to life?

    God you are box of rocks. The point of punishing a murder is also to prevent other murders by deterring people. And in this case, you can't deter people who want to die. So our system can't deal with these sorts of people other than to clean up the bodies.

    Yeah Frank, there is no danger of this ever happening again. Nope. And there is no danger of there being another 911 or a Mumbei. Of course the past is the perfect predictor of the future. so perfect, we can bet everything on it and have no worries of it not being.

    You are hopeless.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN! It's an absolute certainty! And nothing you propose will stop it. We live in a free society (or used to), get the fuck over it.

    But...what your proposals will do is violate the Constitution (1A) and the rights of 2.6 million people, all because you and those like you don't understand odds.

    If you want to go on a holy crusade, John, do it to educate folks about the insignificance of the real threat, and how embracing hysterics will diminish their liberties.

  • MC1135||

    "The point of punishing a murder is also to prevent other murders by deterring people."

    Because you can deter people who aren't afraid of death with fear of "punishment".

  • MC1135||

    "Killing those guys in California doesn't bring those people who died in California back to life."

    But your solution will?!

  • Ron Bailey||

    FdA: This ^^^^ and thousand times this ^^^^

  • Tony||

    Why can't big government deal with heart disease, car accidents, and cancer first? You know, stuff you're actually probably going to die of, unlike Muslim terrorism.

    And do we only make a policy focus on mass shootings done by swarthy people?

  • Suicidy||

    It isn't government's job to fix everything. It is the federal government's job to deal with our borders, and immigration. In fact, that is actually one of the enumerated powers. Heart disease, car accidents, and cancer are not mentioned in the constitution.

  • John||

    Sure it is not. But if the government doesn't keep people safe, people will keep themselves safe. And I don't think you are going to like that very much. The government has law enforcement to protect people from the mob.

  • Tony||

    Enumerated where?

  • JW||

    Rounding them up to the camps is something we all do together.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    "Unless you just hate Muslims and want the public to turn on them after there is another attack, you had better figure out a way to address that sentiment other than by just insulting people and pretending they are just not good people."

    That's right, John. The ones who hate Muslims are the ones criticizing Trump for wanting to religiously discriminate against them, not the ones supporting Trump for his advocacy of state mandated religious discrimination.

    As for the part about Islamic values, I think 'Islamic values' are incompatible with modern society, but thankfully Muslim immigrants to the US tend to integrate and adopt broadly American values while remaining nominally Muslim. Unfortunately Europe has had much worse problems with integration so the Muslims over there are more of a threat.

    Incidentally, other polling has shown that Republicans don't like Muslims, but are also strongly opposed to a religious test.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/fea.....-religion/

    "Overall, Americans were strongly opposed: 64 percent of respondents said they believe a religion-based policy would be “shameful — There should not be a religious test for who is welcomed into the United States.” Among Republicans that percentage drops to 49 percent, while 37 percent said they thought “it makes sense — Christians in the Middle East have been targeted by Muslims and are not likely to be terrorists.”"

    America overwhelmingly opposes religious tests for immigration.

  • John||

    No, Irish, you don't hate Muslims. You are just stupid and arrogant and more interested in feeling smug than you are in accomplishing things. You don't hate Muslims but your stupidity and arrogance has the same affect.

    Those numbers are not fixed. What will they be if there is another attack or a seires of them? When 43% of Democrats think Muslims are incompatible with American values, I am guessing those numbers will likely change a lot.

    Since there likely will be another attack, what is to be done? I know sit around be be smug and insult people. That is the ticket. That is the Libertarian solution because feeling smug, denying reality and making meaningless condemnations is the Libertarian move.

  • Idle Hands||

    Since when does might make right John? if the majority of the population supported you jumping off a bridge would it be smug of you to decline?

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    "No, Irish, you don't hate Muslims. You are just stupid and arrogant and more interested in feeling smug than you are in accomplishing things. You don't hate Muslims but your stupidity and arrogance has the same affect."

    Ha. Such a childish insult I'm not even going to pretend there's anything here to respond to.

    "Those numbers are not fixed. What will they be if there is another attack or a seires of them? When 43% of Democrats think Muslims are incompatible with American values, I am guessing those numbers will likely change a lot."

    An overwhelming majority of Republicans think Muslims are incompatible with American values yet still oppose discrimination against them. They are not mutually exclusive.

    "Since there likely will be another attack, what is to be done? I know sit around be be smug and insult people. That is the ticket. That is the Libertarian solution because feeling smug, denying reality and making meaningless condemnations is the Libertarian move."

    Destroy ISIS. Annihilate them. That's my solution. They are the primary source of these mass shootings in Western countries. So kill them to the last man, with boots on the ground if necessary.

    I'm not a doctrinaire libertarian and most libertarians would disagree with me on this and I'd welcome the argument. But I won't support government discrimination of innocent people on the basis of religious affiliation.

  • John||

    It is true. If we do nothing and there are more attacks, the public will do something and it is likely going to end very badly for Muslims. If you don't like that, tough shit. Sometimes the world is like that. The question is do you want to live in reality or just sit around and pretend reality is something that it isn't so you can get some kind of pathetic sense of self worth. Your choice.

  • ||

    If we do nothing and there are more attacks, the public will do something and it is likely going to end very badly for Muslims.

    Yeah, the rest of us think that's happening now.

  • John||

    Yeah, the rest of us think that's happening now.

    Like how? We are not talking about your fantasies. I mean reality. No one has done jack shit to Muslims in this country. The problem is that might not always be the case.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    "If we do nothing and there are more attacks"

    DO SOMETHING DO SOMETHING DO SOMETHING!

    WHAT IT IS DOESN'T MATTER! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

    You sound like a fucking progressive. Who cares if our policy actually works or just makes the problem worse? Something must be done, this is something, we must do it!

  • John||

    Yes, Irish we can do nothing. And the result of that is likely to be more and worse attacks and the public supporting someone or doing something really ugly.

    Doing nothing is an option but it is likely to be a very bad one. But if that is your preferred solution fine. Just understand the effect of your choices is going to be very bad for the people you are claiming to support.

    Again, your ideology has made you stupid and what you are supporting is going to have the exact same effects that someone who hates Muslims would have. Thanks for proving my point.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    We did do something. The perpetrators are dead. Move on.

    You going to prevent crazy people, John? You gonna prevent crime? How's that workin out with the war on drugs?

    The only power terrorist have is to make people shit their pants. Thanks for supporting the terrorists, John.

  • MC1135||

    John you sound like a gun control proponent... "Who cares if more gun laws actually do nothing to deter gun crime? We just need more laws because SOMETHING has to be DONE."

  • ant1sthenes||

    So find an approach that compromises our principles less. Islamism is a political philosophy that is basically fascism with a holy book. Discriminate based on that in immigration, as we already do for nazis and commies. If most Muslims are islamists, then it will be a ban on islam. If they arent, then only the bad elements will be affected.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "Destroy ISIS. Annihilate them. That's my solution."

    Watch out, the other clowns will deem you 'neocon'.

  • Idle Hands||

    The policy your advocating for will not work. I use the term advocating because even if you claim you don't support the policy you are personally attacking people who are rightfully pointing out how retarded it is.

  • John||

    I am not advocating for a particular policy. I am advocating for an honest conversation where we recognize that radical Islam is a problem and Muslims are not going immigrate into the country in the same numbers as other people until it is fixed.

    Does that mean no Muslims ever? No. But it certainly means not letting in Syrian refugees. It certainly means being very careful about Muslims from Europe and Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.

  • Idle Hands||

    I don't think there is a single person on this blog that thinks radical Islam isn't a problem. The problem is your advocating for the us to do something when there isn't really a solution that the gov. is capable of competently carrying out.

  • John||

    So if Islam isn't the problem, how can we solve it if we refuse to do anything about Muslims? We have a problem with radical Muslims. Shouldn't the first step to be keep them out of the country in the first place?

    And don't give me the "but it wouldn't stop all of them" bullshit. That is a total fallacy and you know it. A solution not being perfect doesn't mean it isn't good or the best available one. School choice doesn't solve all our education problems but no one with any brains buys it when the Progs claim that means it isn't worth doing. Same thing here.

    If the problem is radicalized Muslims, then isn't letting fewer Muslims into the country one way to limit the problem? If not, why not?

  • ||

    A solution not being perfect doesn't mean it isn't good or the best available one. School choice doesn't solve all our education problems but no one with any brains buys it when the Progs claim that means it isn't worth doing. Same thing here.

    You know what would be even more effective? Mass sterilization. For everyone. No more kids. No more kids means definitely no more terror attacks!

    And this latest attack is excellent proof in my favor. Tashfeen Malik? She was a mom. Syed Farook? He had a mom. My anti-mom worldview proved right yet again.

  • John||

    Yeah Nikki, saying Syrians can't move here at government expense is just like mass sterilization.

    It is a good thing you guys are reasonable about this subject and are not emotional and completely fucking losing your minds because your ideology has no way to account for this problem or anything. Nope, not at all. Immigration policy is totally analogous to mass forced sterilization.

    Do yourself a favor and think about what you are saying for a moment and get back to me.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Says the man who is on record for wanting to deport all American Muslims.

  • ||

    Let me defend 2% of what John is saying, although it's painful for me to do so.

    saying Syrians can't move here at government expense is just like mass sterilization.

    I think it's perfectly principled to say that their immigration here should not be at government expense. That's different than deporting people already here or preventing immigration of other people, so John is still 98% wrong. But not 100%, so give credit where credit is due.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    I think it's perfectly principled to say that their immigration here should not be at government expense

    That is a fair assessment.

    However, it could be rationally argued that the US government has a responsibility to those people for creating their tormentors.

    Not sure how I feel about it in that regard. We spend trillions on an ill advised war, create AQI (ISIS), a major contributor to the refugees and support the overthrow of the Syrian government are we morally obligated to remove the innocents from the mess we created?

  • Idle Hands||

    The problem is not enough people have guns in places they decide to attack.

  • Suicidy||

    Wrong. Cytotoxic has gone on record saying Islam is no problem, period. And he attacks anyone who says otherwise.

  • american socialist||

    " It certainly means being very careful about Muslims from Europe and Saudi Arabia and the Middle East."

    You're so smart, fascist asshole. One thing... Paris attackers were French and Belgian. BAN TOURISTS FROM NORTHERN EUROPE. yOU CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE!!!

  • Cytotoxic||

    "I am advocating for an honest conversation"

    AHAHAHAHHAHAHA Red Toney: more Tony than Tony.

  • ||

    I am advocating for an honest conversation where we ...

    "...start with my view being accepted as a given."

    That's an honest conversation?

  • John||

    Yeah Old man. I am the one saying that. It is not the people who are accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being fascists.

    It is funny as hell to watch you people lose your shit over this. You really have no answer and can't account for someone who doesn't care if they die and wants to enforce their will on your society and use your freedom against you. Faced with such people, you all are just melting down and screaming taunts at anyone who mentions reality.

  • ||

    Ladies and Gentlemen, the Statist mind on display! Step right up and see it! Marvel at the awesome conjunction of certitude and fear!

  • Suicidy||

    You just proved John's point.

  • Ron Bailey||

    All: Just reminding everyone of the definition of fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    Trump has not yet called for dictatorship.

  • GregMax||

    Sounds a lot like the Obama administration.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    By the way, John, with the exception of the most recent attack, in which one of them was not an American, the attacks on US soil have often been by American-born Muslims. Hasan was American. The Tsarnaev's were American. The guy who shot up the marine recruitment office was American. One of the people here was American. Some attacks in Europe have been perpetrated by Muslim CONVERTS rather than people who were even born Muslim.

    So what's the plan here, John? Your argument is that it's somehow my fault the next time there's a terrorist attack, but this plan won't even stop terrorist attacks since all the recent ones were commited by American citizens. So are you going to religiously discriminate against one group and hope, for some inexplicable reason, that this will improve the situation rather than further radicalizing them by driving them to segregate? That's why this problem exists in Europe - because Muslims segregate themselves from broader society in their ghettos and radicalize. Your plan not only wouldn't deal with the problem, it would exacerbate it under the guise of hardheaded realism.

  • Illocust||

    Irish, that is an argument in favor of not importing more Muslims not against it. If it's true that terror attacks are carried out by the children of immigrants and not immigrants themselves, then the only relevant questions to screen immigrants becomes are you Muslim and are you from a Muslim dominated culture?

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    As I said in another thread, a huge percentage of our foreign born doctors and engineers are also from Muslim countries. How many lives are saved by Pakistani doctors annually? How many lives are improved by Middle Eastern engineers? There are so few terrorist deaths in an average year that keeping out qualified people like that out of fear will harm this country more than it will help.

    Also - how many terrorist attacks in Europe or America have been carried out by Indonesian or Malaysian Muslims? There are tens of thousands of such people and I can think of 0 terrorist attacks they've ever committed. Why lump them in with other groups of Muslims when they're provably not a threat?

  • Cytotoxic||

    Arab types are important to the oil sands and make up a large percent of the staff at my work place. Thank God Canadians aren't losing their shit over this kind of thing.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Also - how many terrorist attacks in Europe or America have been carried out by Indonesian or Malaysian Muslims?


    Some folks are just more suited for management.

  • John||

    The Tsarnaev's were American.

    No they were not. They were immigrants. They were both born in Russia. They were citizens but they were not born here. So, I am pretty sure not letting them and their parents immigrate would have prevented them from doing what they did.

  • ||

    So "not born here but citizens" means "not American."

    Jesus fucking christ.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What part of Blut und Boden don't you understand, Old Man?

  • ||

    I was thinking more of Sturm und Drang, but I'm not your intellectual equal.

  • grrizzly||

    Only Dzhohar was a recently naturalized US citizen, Tamerlan was never a citizen.

  • John||

    Jesus Christ you are stupid Old Man. The debate is about immigration. So the fact that they were not born here certainly bears on the discussion. So what if they were citizens? The point is had we never let them immigrate, they would not be here. The "they were American" point only matters if they were born here.

  • ||

    So what if they were citizens?

    If they're citizens, they're American. It's really not that hard to understand.

  • american socialist||

    Why don't you just throw Muslims in a concentration camp you fucking fascist apologist. Mmm Mmm, suck that fascist cock, asshole.

  • SugarFree||

    As long as you aren't one of those Nationalist Socialists, the rest of it just peachy-keen, right?

    Fuck off.

  • american socialist||

    He's the one telling us we should listen to bigots because apparently thinking that racists should be condemned and ignored makes you smug.

  • SugarFree||

    Just because he's being an asshole doesn't make you suddenly not one.

  • AFSlade||

    This is the best COMMENT DAY, EVER!!

  • Illocust||

    It's not going to happen John. Too many people with a public voice have tied their feelings of being moral with importing refugees from ISIS controlled territories. With that extreme of a stance being the bare minimum for their 'I'm a good person' feeling, it's impossible to even get them to consider normal immigrant restrictions. Terror attacks are going to keep happening and they are going to keep making incredibly tone deaf comments. Eventually instead of cutting things off at the pass with a compromise on non-citizen immigration (thus bleeding off all the moderate support) we're going to end up with some rights violating legislation against our citizens. It's a 'moral' fight now, and you can't convince pundits to compromise once it's a 'moral' fight.

  • John||

    Sadly you are likely correct. But for people like Irish and Sugar Free, feeling "like a good person" is what it is all about on this issue. And that is a shame. They are not dumb people but have let their ideology and desire to feel superior make them stupid.

  • SugarFree||

    Reading minds again, I see. You should take that to a big poker tournament.

  • John||

    Yes Sugar Free. It is possible to make conclusions about people based on their words and actions. You do that all of the time. Everyone does. Sorry but saying "you are not a mind reader" doesn't answer the mail when your words and actions lead people to make obvious and rational conclusions about your motivations and thoughts.

    If you don't like me thinking you are letting your ideology make you stupid, stop being stupid. If you don't like me saying that your desire to feel superior is driving this, stop making every other post about how evil and stupid the Trump supporters are. If the point isn't to feel superior, why do you make such a show of feeling superior and refuse to admit anyone on the other side could have a rational point or not be a bad person?

  • SugarFree||

    It is possible to make conclusions about people based on their words and actions.

    So you're a xenophobic, fear-driven, fascist hypocrite? Good to know.

    Also, your projection problem has gotten so bad, I honestly think you are delusional at this point. No one is being a smug as you are. No one is letting their ideology make them seem as stupid as you are.

    And by the way, thinking you are delusional is the charitable position.

  • John||

    Yeah Sugar Free, anyone who understands that ideologies have meaning and not everyone in the world is a big wonderful Libertarian here to live and let live is a xenophobe. Thanks for further confirming that the entire purpose of this exercise if for you to feel smug. All you do is throw insults and refuse to make admit the other side could have legitimate concerns. What is your point other than to feel superior and substitute your ideology for thought? If there is one, why do you continue to only do that?

  • SugarFree||

    "legitimate concerns"

    Oh, god. This is awesome. As if "all Moolums is trin' to kill us" is anything but emotional drivel.

    Rejecting your police-state is not being smug, it's possessing a working mind.

  • John||

    Yeah SF, anyone who thinks that Muslims might be a problem is just a hater. My God, why would anyone worry about Muslim violence in this country?

    Do you realize how stupid you sound? I couldn't make you sound any more ridiculous if I hacked your account and were drafting your posts for that purpose.

  • AFSlade||

    ONCE AGAIN: BEST COMMENT DAY EVER.

  • Illocust||

    No, I'm pretty sure in their case they are just falling more on the anarchist line than libertarian line. Some people don't think border control is a legitimate part of the night watchman state. I obviously don't agree with this. I don't believe a libertarian state would have had to let the German army into their country during World War II just because they uttered the magic word 'immigration'.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Actually it's this thing called 'principles'. See also, 'basic understanding of statistics'. 30,000 Somali refugees and not a single attack.

  • hurts_donut||

  • Cytotoxic||

    All those pretty numbers, and he will still lose H2H against Hillary.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Thrice before the rooster crows.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I know Fist not.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I say again, I do not know this Fist of which you speak.

  • Swiss Servator||

    No, Fist, I do not know him!

    *rooster crows*

    Dang, he was right!

  • PM||

    Anyone who runs, is a VCMuslim. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VCMuslim!

  • BeefJokey||

    Hmm, sounds similar to the gun control issue...

    Want to buy a gun? ok, are you a good guy? yes? ok, here you go.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

    LOL, what a fucking dumbass.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    I love the idea of going to Bill Gates. He's Computer Guy, he should know what to do.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    The whole quote is amazing. "Closing that internet up in some ways.' 'These are foolish people.' Good stuff.

  • BeefJokey||

    Yea, OK GRANDPA, we'll just CLOSE THE INTERNET!!!

  • Ron||

    the more you hate Trump the more I like him. BTW you never take refugees from a country you are fighting and since we can't tell a good muslim from a bad one I say stop all immigration. that is not fascism that is common sense.

  • SugarFree||

    Just saying "I am an idiot" would have saved us both time.

  • Ron||

    Please tell me how you can identify a good muslim from a bad one. obviously our government can't so that only leave us with one solution.

  • SugarFree||

    Only one solution? One might call it the final solution.

  • AFSlade||

    YET AGAIN! This is truly an abundance of goodness to me and mine.

    Best. Comment. Day. Ever.

  • ||

    It's a great idea to nominate a candidate who is hated by half of your own party. brilliant strategy for winning the election, genius.

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    Trump is a Fascist without portfolio.

    Our current Imperator is a Fascist with one hell of a portfolio ...

  • Drake||

    Do Democrats actually think Hillary Clinton is a good person? They seem pretty comfortable with her breaking Federal security laws and covering up sexual assaults.

    I hope neither of them are on the ballot next year.

  • sarcasmic||

    Since when did Democrats give a shit about principles? It's all about the person. She gets a pass because of who she is. Doesn't matter what she did.

  • ||

    So do I, but if Trump gets nominated, I'll be forced to either stay home or vote for Clinton. The worst thing that could happen to the Republican party is for Trump to win on a Republican ticket.

  • sarcasmic||

    I'd have to write in "None of the above."

  • Hamster of Doom||

    I vote Cthulu. Rip that bandaid off.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Uh, guys, there'll probably be an "L" on the ballot. That how I like to throw away my vote.

  • PM||

    I'll be forced to either stay home or vote for Clinton

    "Darn the luck. If only I didn't have to do this..."

  • sarcasmic||

    Forced? Like, as in coerced?

  • Robert||

    But she doesn't say what she thinks, or what anybody thinks, so it's AOK. Good person.

  • sarcasmic||

    "When fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts, it will not be with jackboots, it will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts. Smiley smiley."

    -George Carlin

  • DJF||

    So we don't have to worry about the people in the expensive suits?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    It will apparently be in the form of entitled, ugly people with bad hair.

  • american socialist||

    "Donald trump is a bad person"

    Wrong. He's super awesome. The shit storm he has aroused amongst our super best friends in the RP is hilarious to behold. Sure they'll denounce him because, ultimately, he's not in the same club as they, but you can be sure they'll pander for each and last bigot.

  • Gene||

    Andy all appearances

    Composing articles on the phone now?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    What's nice about a Trump presidency is that I'll get to use "but Obama did this" as an ironclad rebuttal to all the fascism Trump inflicts on the land.

  • ||

    sitting president Obama is wanting to strip Americans of their rights if they are on his enemies list, but this guy is the bad person.

  • ||

    Yeah, it'll be even more awesome than living under Obama and getting to use "but Bush did this" in response to everything.

  • DJF||

    """for uncivil and obnoxious behavior."""

    But look what the civil and polite politicians have done, constant war, massive debts, crony capitalism, massive expansion of government.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "But look over there!"

  • Trigger Warning||

    He's just seeing how hard he can troll.

    If by some miracle he gets the nomination, no one will be more surprised than Trump.

  • Ron||

    I often think this is the case

  • american socialist||

    Hmmm, so far it's about 50/50 on a comment board on a libertarian comment board about Donald trump. It's the libertarian moment.

  • Swiss Servator||

    And he keeps getting the attention he desires... the free campaign material keeps a comin'.

    Starve the derpfire of its oxygen, plz.

  • Tundra, well-chilled.||

  • Illocust||

    One thing my Democrat boss pointed out that I think holds a lot of water, is that Trump isn't a normal politician. Normal politicians have an extremely scrutinized script for everything they say that they've had checked by half their staff for double meanings. If a normal politician says something taking their words as what they are actually proposing to be done is valid.

    Trump doesn't do that. Trump talks like he's sitting around with friends having a beer. What he says presents a sentiment but its not a real policy prescription. Like your friend that says all rapists should be hung by their balls in town square, most people realize that Trump doesn't actually want to do the specific extreme thing he stated. Most pundits on the other hand are invested in trying to convince people not to vote for him and recognizing his style of rhetoric won't help them in doing that.

  • ||

    Like your friend that says all rapists should be hung by their balls in town square, most people realize that Trump doesn't actually want to do the specific extreme thing he stated.

    Some of us don't have friends like that. Because they're bad people.

  • GregMax||

    No, they aren't, because the don't actually DO that.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Some of us don't have friends like that. Because they're bad people.

    That's the last time I invite you over for wine, cheese, and parlor games.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "An Error Was Encountered
    The URI you submitted has disallowed characters."

    Does that count as a "SugarFree'd link"?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Illocust||

    Nikki, I don't do this often, but you are an unequivocally bad person if you would not be friends with someone who says that to express a sentiment not an actual course of action. You are employing the worst aspects of PC speech policing to make yourself feel superior in that course of action. You are free to do so, but you are not a good person in having done so.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You're going to have to expand upon your reasoning there, because where I come from, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be friends with like-minded people.

  • Illocust||

    It's a combination of the judgment of others' moral character based upon a speech tic and refusal of friendship due to speech style. Most people can't help how they talk, it's ingrained and can only be really modified around the edges for those not skilled in speech. Nikki refusing friendship due to someone using hyperbole and nothing else is a lot like her refusing friendship because they've got a Boston accent and all those Boston folks are criminals. Sure it's her right, but it falls under your a bad person category. It would not be bad if it was just because she didn't like the sound of Boston accents, and no moral judgment on the character of the owner was implied.

  • John||

    I am with illocust. I am friends with people I have things in common with. I am friends with people based on those things. The only person I am friends with in all aspects of life is my wife. The rest, I am friends with them based on the limited things we share in common. So with them I don't care about their politics. I am friends with them because we like sports or music or whatever not politics. So their politics don't matter good or bad.

    Are there some things that are so bad that I could not be friends with the person no matter what? Sure. I wouldn't become friends with someone who was a professional criminal or a really amoral person. But politics do not rise to that level of morality for me. I don't think your political views absent something really extreme could ever rise to the level of making someone immoral for simply holding the view in good faith. If you disagree, I would advise you to reconsider. I don't think putting that level of importance on politics is a healthy or good way to live. It is just a ticket to being a hateful and miserable person.

  • Robert||

    Oh, this ^^^^^ sooo much!

  • ant1sthenes||

    Look, how can you trust that people are employing hyperbole? Frankly, anyone that uses such violent imagery should be run through a woodchipper.

  • ||

    you are an unequivocally bad person if you would not be friends with someone who says that to express a sentiment not an actual course of action

    What sentiment is it that they're expressing that is okay, exactly? Seriously. I'm not saying they do it, but they sound like pretty fucking nasty people. They're expressing sentiments that make them odious.

  • Lord at War||

    Hey Nikki-

    If you rape my daughter, I will castrate you, feed you your balls, then sink you in the nearest lake while you're still breathing... but, I won't ever actually say that I'd string a rapist up by his balls.

    Can we be friends?

  • PM||

    I'm sure your SJW Algonquin Round Table is an everloving hoot to spend time with.

  • GregMax||

    As far as I can make out, Trump has yet to actually put any of his policies into law/executive orders. The thing about bigots is that they don't even understand they stubbornly refuse to examine their own prejudices all the while calling people they disagree with "bigots" and "fascists".

  • SugarFree||

    "When he says stuff like this, he probably doesn't mean it."

    VOTE TRUMP

  • Racist, Xenophobe & Nativist||

    Sure thing - I'm sure Uncle Trump has got something for you.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    LOL.

    "Sure he says he wants to censor the internet and discriminate against all Muslims, but since he hasn't implemented that due to the fact that he currently has no power, how dare you criticize what he's saying he wants to do!"

    Yeah. It's not bigoted to call someone a bigot when he says bigoted shit.

  • GregMax||

    No, it's bigoted to stubbornly refuse to examine your prejudices. The other clause didn't define "bigot".

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    What prejudice am I refusing to examine? I'm prejudiced against Islam as an ideology. I think the world would be a better place if Islam vanished from it. Pointing out that this is terrible, discriminatory policy despite my anti-Islam prejudices is actually proof that I am examining my biases.

  • GregMax||

    I wasn't specifically referring to you. I don't read your comments enough to know your prejudices. I was simply responding to your comment about "it's not bigoted to call someone . . . " blah, blah blah.
    I didn't assert that.

    Frankly I doubt most of the Trump knee-jerk haters can actually describe accurately what his real policy is versus his campaign antics.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "Frankly I doubt most of the Trump knee-jerk haters can actually describe accurately what his real policy is versus his campaign antics."

    Frankly, I doubt anyone knows for sure what the difference is, and your attempt to claim that you do is just more hope projected on your Great Leader.

  • SugarFree||

    "Glorious Leader," not "Great Leader."

  • AFSlade||

    You're having a helluva comment day.

  • GregMax||

    I don't claim to understand them. I come to this place to hear what are often edifying and reasoned discussions of topics that I'm interested in. But when Trump is mentioned the balance of people losing their shit like Pavlov's dog makes it difficult to filter out any of the usually interesting discussion.

  • John||

    You got it Greg. They go fucking insane. Mostly it is just social signaling. It is a giant rush to prove who is the most enlightened person and not one of those people.

    It is fucking sorry and unworthy of the board.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Trump can't describe accurately what his policy is. He doesn't have policy. He just says shit.

  • Ron Bailey||

    GM: There is nothing knee-jerk about my hatred for Trump.

  • GregMax||

    I'm not really proud to hate anyone. But I respect that people despise Trump. I despise Obama, Hillary, Sanders, and Bush. I am apathetic to the rest and fail to see how any of the people running for the job of executor of Article 2 are any more able to do the job or trustworthy enough to do it without caving to their cronies than Trump.

  • John||

    Most people on this issue just want to pose and social signal. So good luck in getting them to think. And yes most people realize Trump doesn't mean what he says and it doesn't bother them because no politician does. They support him because they are tired of no one being able to admit the truth that we have a Muslim problem and they hate the media and Washington and enjoy him trolling them.

    America doesn't deserve Trump being President. But Washington really does. He is an asshole and God do those assholes deserve being stuck with him.

  • Entelechy||

    Britain found a solution to the Donald problem decades ago- it just needs recycling.

    http://vvattsupwiththat.blogsp.....olved.html

  • BakedPenguin||

    I've mentioned this previously, but it bears repeating. To all "libertarians" advocating that people with dangerous ideologies be deported - many Americans think that "anti-government" beliefs are dangerous.

  • Irish ♥s ESB||

    And leftists think people with pro-life beliefs are dangerous and many leftists have outright asserted the NRA is a terrorist organization.

    Please. This is a ridiculously awful proposal.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Just pointing out that once government gets a power, it will get used. And many people currently advocating it could find themselves on the ass end of the stick.

  • GregMax||

    We're all already on the ass end of a stick in case you missed it. So I guess it's pine versus birch.

  • Loki||

    Or perhaps stick vs. running chainsaw.

  • Illocust||

    Pretty sure everyone on the thread has been arguing not to import certain non-citizens. In fact I'm pretty sure one of the big reasons mentioned is because it might lead to a backlash causing the deportation of citizens which is being portrayed as a bad thing.

  • MWG||

    "In fact I'm pretty sure one of the big reasons mentioned is because it might lead to a backlash causing the deportation of citizens which is being portrayed as a bad thing."

    You're joking, right? Are you seriously arguing that people like John want to keep Muslim refugees and immigrants out because he's concerned for the wellbeing of Muslims already in the US?

  • John||

    Yes. That is my entire point. You just refuse to admit that it is because you don't have a good response to it. So it is easy to just claim I must hate all Muslims. That way you don't have to think and consider that someone other than you and your ideology might have a point.

    It is funny, the new hip insult is to claim I am a "mind reader" because I dare to take what people say seriously and point out the implications of it. Now of course you are just sure I hate Muslims and love Trump, even though I say the exact opposite.

    You guys are not dealing with this issue well. This is not one of your better moments.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    That's how John argues. He's also super concerned for the welfare of gay people, you know.

  • John||

    MJGreen,

    So you have answer to my point and lack the intellectual integrity to admit that. You do realize how obvious you are making that don't you?

  • John||

    Yeah, BP it is a problem. No doubt. But understand that you don't fall down every slippery slope. But if the public gets pissed off enough about something, they push you down it. So the trick is how do you deal with the situation where the public doesn't do that. And that is hard. What is easy is just telling the public to fuck off and die and that you dare them to push you down the slope.

  • ||

    Fun fact. Of the events labeled terrorist attacks on US soil in 2014, 4 were found to be done by Muzzies for Muzzie reasons (2 of them perpetrated by the same guy) and 9 were found to be done by people who were part of the Sovereign Citizen movement or explicitly espoused anti-immigrant and anti-government motives (3 out of 9 of those events were perpetrated by one dude in Austin). The deadliest event was 5 deaths by anti-government types in Vegas. One of the events was someone throwing bombs at a mosque and a few of them were KKK-related or unknown.

    So, I'd say BP is right. We might as well resurrect Janet Reno's career if we let Trump lead us down this path.

  • John||

    So you think there is no threat? We could never have another 911? That what happened in Paris could never happen here? If so, why do you think that? If not, then aren't your points about this stuff not happening very often just wishful thinking? Yeah, everything is great provided it never changes.

    Let there be another 911 and see what the public does. Trump is amazingly tame compared to what he could be or what the public would want if it got sufficiently angry. So the question is what do you do. Do you just call the public names and tell them to shut the fuck up and leave the entire issue to Trump? Or do you maybe take some reasonable measures regarding immigration and stop calling people names so the public doesn't feel that Trump or someone worse is the only option available?

    Granted, option number two greatly reduces the opportunity to feel smug and social signal. I do however think it might be the better option for the country.

  • ||

    I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were currently doing nothing. What the fuck do we pay DHS staff for, John? Are you all just goldbricking right now?

    I don't think we should structure policy around maximally irrational fear. The September 11 attacks killed 2,996 people and injured more than 6,000 others. That's AWFUL, but even at those levels your chances of being harmed by Islamic terrorism in the United States are vanishingly small.

  • John||

    I didn't realize we were currently doing nothing

    We are not doing shit, especially if we let the Syrian refugees in. Our government has proven utterly incapable of screening out dangerous people. Hell, the Russians told us the Boston bombers were dangerous and we did nothing. The father of the underwear bomber went to the US embassy in Amsterdam and told them that his son was nuts and dangerous and we still gave him a VISA and let him on the plane.

    If your idea of "doing something" is to depend on the government figuring out which Muslims are dangerous and which are not, you are effectively arguing for doing nothing. And you of all people should understand the government isn't going to get any better. So how can we make it easier for them? One way is not to admit the refugees and limit the number of Muslims we let in the country. Sure, they will still fuck up but at least the numbers and the chances of them fucking up will be smaller.

  • ||

    Well if you're currently not doing anything with 240,000 employees and a $55+ BILLION annual budget, close up shop and go home, John. Go home, wrap yourself in a hermetically sealed bubble wrap chamber and don't come out until the heat death of the universe. There will be no point where you are safe enough.

  • John||

    They are not doing anything with regard to this. They do do other things like the Coast Guard and enforcing the customs laws. And they would do more with immigration if Obama would let them.

    But stopping Muslim terrorists? Not at all. We are not doing shit. We just are not and that is not going to change.

  • ant1sthenes||

    So... would they be deported to libertopia?

  • ||

    Somalia.

  • PM||

    IOW, he's exactly like every other president of our modern era, only he has the unmitigated temerity to say the vile shit that he thinks in front of TV cameras instead of in open-mic slip ups or behind closed doors to be revealed years later in tell-all books or on secretly-recorded audio tapes.

    I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years
    The one thing, Bob, that has not gotten across, and I come back to it again. Henry’s beginning to get some of it across now. For Christ’s sakes, can’t we get across the courage more? Courage, boldness, guts? Goddamn it! That is the thing. . . . What is the most important single factor that should come across out of the first two years? Guts! Absolutely. Guts!
    Fuck off! It's enough that I have to see you shit-kickers every day, I'm not going to talk to you too!! Just do your Goddamn job and keep your mouth shut.
    There's Adam Clymer, major-league asshole from The New York Times.
    A few years ago, this guy would have been getting us coffee. The only reason you are endorsing him is because he’s black. Let’s just be clear.

    Why I never!

  • Cytotoxic||

    None of that is as bad as Trump, and saying it out loud is not an improvement.

  • PM||

    MUH PEARLS!

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years

    No, what Trump says is MUCH worse than this.

  • mfckr||

    Does any of this really matter?

  • Intn'l House of Badass||

    To the extent that one is a "good" Muslim (in the sense that one lives in accordance with the Koran and historic teachings and practices of Islam), one cannot be a "good" person (in the sense that one behaves in ways that are in accordance with universally accepted standards of human morality.) If you are a Muslim and you don't like that, well, pick a religion with a less misogynistic, violent, oppressive, deceitful prophet to follow. There are several options that aren't based on the teachings of a pedophile, by the way.

    Donald Trump is a bad person based on those universally accepted standards of human morality. But there are a lot more Muslims than there are Donald Trumps. Donald Trump just wants to be president, and we've had lots of presidents who were bad people. Muslims want to precipitate a global apocalypse.

  • Tony||

    Well Catholics all like to diddle little boys and half the Republican nominees are Catholic, so let's not throw stones.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "Muslims want to precipitate a global apocalypse."

    Yes, and the only thing preventing all 1.6 billion of them from doing it is_________.

  • Intn'l House of Badass||

    Presumably, they lack adequately trained community organizers.

  • bassjoe||

    Hey, don't use logic.

  • Racist, Xenophobe & Nativist||

    Donald Trump Is a Bad Person

    I'm guessing The Donald must've snatched Suderman's purse at some point... or wore the same dress to a cocktail party....

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    nice :)

  • Earthfarmer||

    I would like to see Rand Paul win it all but if he is not the nominee then I'm voting for the Libertarian.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Should be more open-minded to Cruz or Friona.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Everytime I despair over the state of affairs in Canada, Trump and his retard supporters say something. It's like this guy exists to make PM Trudeau's life easier.

  • PM||

    I can see why a candidate for elected office a year out from the election in a country you don't live in would assuage any anxiety you had about your own piece of shit prime minister whose candidacy you enthusiastically supported.

  • bassjoe||

    At least he's legalizing the weed, man...

  • Jackand Ace||

    This is great.

    "He is consistently ungracious and egotistical, and he is prone to insults and bullying when challenged. He is xenophobic and bigoted. He does not tell the truth when called on his insults. He has the maturity level of a middle-school bully, but with less sophistication about policy."

    That egotistical, immature, bullying and lieing Trump garners what seems to be a minimum of support from one third of the GOP. And if you read comments here at Reason, maybe a similar amount from libertarians.

    He doesn't get that from a universal "political support." It's support from the right.

    You got a problem with Trump, Peter? You got a bigger problem with your base. Maybe they too are a bunch of xenophobes.

  • SugarFree||

    Fuck off, you short retarded cunt.

  • Illocust||

    Not everyone who posts here is a libertarian. Should be obvious from the fact you posted here.

  • ||

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    That's racist, straight up.

    Funny.

    But racist. Straight up.

  • John||

    How is Trump trying to create a Caliphate? By that standard isn't anyone who stands up to Muslims doing the same?

    I am all for freedom of speech but bullets tend to trump that. No one is going to stand up when doing so gets them killed. And make no mistake they will kill you.

  • Archon||

    So when banning all Muslims from entering the country (including Muslim Americans living abroad apparently) alienates Muslims already in and causes more terrorist attacks what's the next step?

    Once you go down that road I fear the endgame will be very, very ugly.

  • Loki||

    Perhaps we'll have to confiscate all their shit, and round them up and "concentrate" them somewhere we can keep an eye on them. Like in some kind of "camps"...

    We'll be able to re-use the camps that will inevitably be needed to hold the 11 million illegal immigrants while awaiting deportation proceedings. Efficiency! Dare I say almost "German like" efficiency...

  • John||

    Perhaps we'll have to confiscate all their shit, and round them up and "concentrate" them somewhere we can keep an eye on them. Like in some kind of "camps"...

    You act like that could never happen. You people seem to have absolutely no appreciation of the danger here. You either pretend Islamic terrorism could never be anything other than a nuisance or you pretend that the public will happily put up with an alien minority murdering people by the scores and never take any extreme measures in return.

  • Archon||

    May be true but conversely I don't think you appreciate how many people would oppose (even violently oppose) radical solutions to solve the Islamic terrorism problem.

  • John||

    I know they do. They don't understand that if you don't want those radical solutions, you have to offer better solutions. And the only solutions being offered here is to hope for the best and deal with the terrorists after they have made an attack. That is not a solution anyone is going to accept if there is ever another serious attack.

  • Archon||

    I wouldn't assume the majority of people are going to be okay with a radical solution. Even after another serious attack.

    We can agree to disagree though.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Before you need a solution, you must first have a problem.

    One in 20,000,000 is not a problem.

    What's your "solution" to the fire problem in the country? One in 104,000
    What's your "solution" to the walking problem in the country? One in 55,000
    What's your "solution" to the murder problem in the country? One in 13,500

    All FAR outweigh terror as a threat.

  • John||

    Sure Frank, there is not danger of any attack. None whatsoever. I wish I could live in your world, I really do.

    Sadly I live in a universe where the past is only a good predictor of the future until it is not. You refuse to admit there is any threat or that we have any problem with Radical Muslim and expect the country to risk their lives in hopes you are right as you have the government pay to import hundreds of thousand of people from Syria.

    And you wonder why people support Trump.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Sure Frank, there is not danger of any attack. None whatsoever.

    You can't logically address the issue, so you devolve to a mendacious cunt.

    OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN! It's an absolute certainty! And nothing you propose will stop it. We live in a free society (or used to), get the fuck over it.

    Of course there is a threat and that threat is miniscule when compared to other risks that we don't feel the need to violate the rights of innocent people over.

  • Ron||

    my car is not calling for my death
    the sidewalk is not threatening to kill me
    my house is not threatening to burn down and kill me.
    I have taken steps to keep any of those things form harming me by accident.
    however a large group of a certain minority has made threats to kill everyone that disagrees with them and my own government is doing its best to keep me from protecting myself from that threat. How by allowing the threat to grow within our borders and trying to take my guns so that I can't stop protect myself.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Ron, clean the poopy out of your pants and nut up.

    Lots of people call for lots of crazy shit. It doesn't mean they have the capability to make it happen. Terrorists are an extremely tiny percentage of Muslims.

    SO, if we do as John wants, we'll violate the rights of the innocent Muslims based on an irrational fear (1 in 20,000,000) of terrorism. If we alienate the innocent Muslims, whose side do you think they'll come down on?

    By violating the rights of the innocent, you will drive those people into the arms of the terrorists. (Have I mentioned there are 1.6 billion of them?) You will CAUSE the conflict you irrationally fear.

  • John||

    Yes Frank. Those people who died out there and 2800 who dies on 911 and the 129 who died in Paris were just pants shitters.

    Let me guess Frank you have never heard a shot fired in anger or so much as been in a fist fight. Go fuck yourself with your pathetic cavalier attitude about a risk you have no comprehension of and you fully expect everyone but you to take. Seriously, it is just fucking pathetic.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Those people who died out there and 2800 who dies on 911 and the 129 who died in Paris were just pants shitters.

    Mendacious little cunt. I've said REPEATEDLY that those directly responsible for terrorist acts should be brought to justice. But punishing the wicked isn't enough for you, you ignorant little fucking Nazi, is it? You need to punish the innocent in order to feel safe. Fucking coward.

    never heard a shot fired in anger

    I was shelled on a daily daily basis in Iraq, so you can pretty much suck my ass.

    You disgust me.

  • Ron||

    You are the one who is afraid, afraid to offend people who would kill you. If we turn the refugees away maybe they will fight for their own land and eliminate those who kill in their religions name. You sir are the racist for assuming all 1.6 billion wish to kill us I am only looking for ways to protect this nations since our government refuses to do the minimum to protect us and the most to hurt us.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    You sir are the racist for assuming all 1.6 billion wish to kill us

    You sir, are illiterate.

    Now go back and read what I actually said, only slower.

  • AFSlade||

    Nicely done.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Nothing like a crisp intellectual debate on the issues.

  • bassjoe||

    If this proposal becomes a reality -- I don't care if the courts throw it out the very next day -- I'm telling my Muslim friends to emigrate elsewhere. It clearly will not be safe here for them anymore. That people can't see how Trump's proposals are going down the road of Nazi Germany must be willful ignorance (or silent hope of another Final Solution directed against a different minority). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

  • John||

    Yeah because Jews murdering people in Germany and Jewish terrorism was just a problem.

    And yes, your Muslim friends probably should immigrate. Both this country and they will be better off for them doing it.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    Deep-dish, circumcised, Mexican, ass secks, anyone? We can make more if we need it!

  • sgreffenius||

    There are a lot of differences between Lyndon Johnson and Donald Trump, but Suderman identifies three similarities: both are egotistical, both are liars, and both are not good people. I can use the present tense with Johnson, because he lives with us still.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    +1 Great Society's aftereffects and ongoing effects

  • Loki||

    The worst thing about Trump? The fact that every fucking comment thread about that fascist shithead turns into a shitshow because of his mouth breathing supporters and the assholes who can't help but respond to them.

  • John||

    I don't think there is a single Trump supporter on this thread. I don't see anyone who supports him. The only thing I see is a debate between people who think that maybe it is a bad idea to let large numbers of foreign Muslims into the country and a bunch of other people who think anyone who says that must be a fascist Trump supporter, whatever that is.

  • kbolino||

    What I see are two groups who refuse to be honest about what they want and constantly phrase their own position in the most ambiguously favorable terms and the other side's position in the most concretely unfavorable terms.

    When there is consensus or at least tepid agreement it is quickly discarded in favor of hurling insults and bickering over bullshit.

  • Loki||

    Pretty much this, hence my description of the thread as a "shitshow."

    Whether or not there are any actual no-shit Trump supporters here or not I don't know. I'm not going to wade through 300+ comments worth of horseshit to find out. Although I highly doubt that there isn't "a single Trump supporter on this thread." There's bound to be some, even if they don't admit it.

  • ziggy||

    This is what happens when anyone who dares to criticize Islam is labelled a racist and a bigot. People end up supporting extremist views because they feel they are the only one's giving them a voice.

    Trump is an asshole and his position on muslims goes perfectly in line with his other authoritarian views, but it's time to admit that Islam does tend to radicalize more than other religions. And if you look at Islamic countries what you find is a shitshow of human rights abuses.

    Like other religions Islam is stupid, and people should be allowed to call it out without being called racists and bigots.

  • John||

    Pretty much. And also this is what happens when anyone who objects to any form of immigration control is called the same thing. If Reason hates it that Trump has so many supporters, they should look in the mirror and ask themselves why they and the rest of the beltway ceded the field to him.

  • ziggy||

    Yup. Look at the rise of anti-semitism in Europe coming from the Muslim population there. The fact that muslims more easily become radicalized. These things are facts.

    Unfortunately we can't even get to have a discussion on how to address this problem, because when you are racist for pointing it out, every argument you have is invalid.

    So for those people who love calling everyone racist, it will be fun to see how they react when the PC European left(who currently calls everyone who raises concerns a racist) rapidly adopts a very anti-muslim stance when attacks continue to happen.

    The PC crowd is creating a self fulfilling prophecy by "eliminating" moderate views on this subject.

  • Boomer||

    You forgot to mention his position on torture:

    "It works," Trump repeated of waterboarding. "Believe me, it works. And you know what? If it doesn't work, they deserve it anyway, for what they're doing."

    http://www.people.com/article/.....ng-torture

  • bassjoe||

    I've been in conversations -- okay, Facebook flamewars -- with people who believe torture is okay because (alleged!) terrorists deserve it and don't give two shits whether it actually works. He's talking to those people.

  • bassjoe||

    I for one do not actually think Trump believes a word he says, he's an actor and is probably more surprised than anybody at how far he's gone without an actual campaign structure other than a Twitter feed filled with fact-challenged statements and people who can't use consistent fonts in a press release or "policy paper".

    Regardless, it'll be interesting to see if this stance does anything one way or another to his popularity. I mean, even Darth Cheney thinks his proposal is nuts.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    You know who else was an authoritarian narcissist?

  • Loki||

    Hillary?

  • ||

    Can't we put the Syrian refugees in wood chippers? And then we could get the Illegal Mexicans to run said wood chippers. All we need is cops... a bunch of cops to oversee the operation.. and some bureaucrats to ask the Syrians if they are Syrians. We couldn't stand for a Syrian Christian to make it through the system because some idiot asked if he/she was a Muslim.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Can there be any doubt now that Donald Trump is a fascist?

    Is Donald Trump advocating occupational franchise?

  • RogerN||

    I would take Trump over an anti-American Kenyan any day.

  • AD-RtR/OS!||

    "His presidential campaign is driven by his penchant for uncivil and obnoxious behavior."

    Not too dissimilar to many I've met at Libertarian Party events.

  • JoeInMissouri||

    All care about is will he follow the Constitution.
    Compare him to Hillary if you think he is so bad.

  • TruthHurts||

    Suderman, you are a complete idiot! You are just like the rest of the media with all your bullshit talk. You have blown just about everything Donald Trump said or did completely out of proportion just to serve your own agenda. Crap, half the shit in this article is a lie and you put words and/or thoughts of your own mixed into what you claim is all Donald Trump. This is exactly why Donald Trump has a following. The media is always putting a spin on things to suit their own agenda. Using words on the headliners to manipulate peoples thoughts before they even start reading. The media is worse than ISIS!!! Lies, Lies and more Lies is what is fucking up our country.

    Suderman you should go through this article again and take out all the misleading statements, half truths, and full on lies about what Donald Trump is saying and/or doing and then see just how bad the guy is....

    The only thing that is truthful is the fact he acts and talks like a kid with all his insulting statements but that is all it is! One kid calling another kid a name. If it wasn't for that, he would have double the number of people supporting him!

  • DonRitchie||

    Nonsense. As libertarians, you don't believe in such things as bad people. That's why you don't need government. People are only bad when they come together to educate care or care for the poor.

    By the way, actual fascists came to power by actually criticising their systems of government. Donald Trump is getting up and saying people shouldn't vote. Racism is at the core of the American spirit, and Trump today is no different than politicians wanting to send blacks to Liberia, Indians to reservations, or any other group in a long tradition of American racism. Racism is the heart of American democracy and always has been.

  • MSimon||

    The anti-Muslim spirit is strong in America:

    Thomas Jefferson and John Adams reporting to John Jay, re upcoming Barbary Wars lead by Jefferson. Americas first "War on Terror"

    It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. [2] [3] - Thomas Jefferson

  • Hank Phillips||

    Superstitious collectivism, at least...

  • Hi there!||

    "People are only bad when they come together to educate care or care for the poor."

    When those people work on capital hill, and "come together" means using the threat of force to decide how our nation is educated and how goods are distributed, then yeah, those people are bad. Or maybe just deluded. The exclusivity of "bad" in your statement is also incorrect, though.

    It's also bad to run for office when you don't understand the powers and limits granted that office, when you don't understand the day-to-day concerns of that office, when your proposed "solutions" to problems consist of at best ill-advised policy and at worst, a grave disregard for the concept of limited powers and government by law in general, when you shamelessly pander to base nationalism and the fear impulses of your constituency, when you use time better spent shoring up your platforms to instead throw base insults and tantrums at your detractors...sure, doesn't make him a Bad Person, imho, just makes him a shitty, shitty candidate.

  • Hank Phillips||

    William Sumner's version of "The Forgotten Man" was a lot clearer than that one.

  • MSimon||

    The Donald: we're at war - get it through your head.

    So are we dar el Harb or not?

  • MSimon||

  • msj||

    And remind me again how he is a worse person than the rapist Bill Clinton or the liar Hillary.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Bill, a rapist? Don't you antiabortion fanatic infiltrators know how to add and subtract?

  • Chocoholic Leprechaun||

    Rand Paul said the exact same thing as Trump, in different words. Is Rand Paul a bad person too?

  • woodNfish||

    Trump is brilliant, and he is right. Reason wants donations? Why - you're idiots. You people have no capacity to look at what Trump actually said before you write shrill, stupid reactions. Your brains must be balkanized with your insane open borders nonsense. I have a great idea - invite all the muslims to stay in your homes. You can enjoy watching them rape your daughters and wives before they murder them while they behead your sons, and we will benefit by no longer reading your thoughtless stupidity on these pages anymore.

    Foreigners have no constitutional rights. They also do not have an inherent right to immigrate to our sovereign country. We have every right to keep out any one we want to for whatever reason we like, especially in times of war. Islam has declared war on the West. What more do you nitwits need to convince you Trump is right?

  • Archon||

    Is this still a libertarian site?

  • Bob Meyer||

    Not from the comments I've read.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    For as much as I agree with many Libertarian views, they do have a persistent habit of sticking theirs heads in the sand when it comes to external (now internal) threats.
    The comments reflect an undeniable mass movement of conscious recognizing the threat of dar al Harb.
    It is not a bad thing, unpleasant perhaps, but how long do you leave a splinter in your hand?
    Long enough for it to get infected? Times up.

  • Hank Phillips||

    We used to have a Libertarian Defense Caucus to kinda offset the infiltration by pussies, anarchists and foreign moles.

  • kleptowit||

    The things Trump says he would do are not as bad as the things done by most presidents.

  • Shootist||

    I'm thinking America would use an alpha male war President. Someone as rude as Andrew Jackson. Leaving the governing to the beta males and she-males certainly has FUBAR'd everything of import.

  • Robert||

    Whatever, http://votesmart.org/voteeasy says Trump's positions (stated or inferred) are 69% similar to mine on the 15 Qs they rate. Rand Paul only slightly edged him out @ 70%. Tied for most similar to my positions at 82% are Jeb Bush & Ted Cruz. Farthest was Bernie Sanders @ 28%.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    One must take position papers with a grain of salt.
    You only have to look at Zero's (et. el.) positions and take note how he 'evolved' on those positions.
    The best predictor is to look at prior behavior.

  • Vesparado||

    A "bad" person, eh? So, if I reject his policy proposals does that make me (and, maybe even more important, you) a "good" person?

  • nicmart||

    Still, Lew Rockwell and his Mises Institute sycophants are touting Trump and justifying it with an old Murray Rothbard essay in praise of demagogues.

  • Mark P||

    Donald Trump is not attempting to intimidate us through the use of physical force--like the jihadis are--he is merely telling us some of his ideas. We are not being forced to agree with him, nor are we being forced to vote for him. His ideas are very similar to FDR's ideas, and most people regard FDR as one of our best presidents. When the Japanese killed Americans on American soil, they in effect declared war on us; and so FDR put many Japanese into camps because he couldn't determine whether or not many of the Japanese living here were secret agents. Now the Islamic State has killed Americans on American soil, and have in effect declared war on us. Trump's plan is actually less radical than FDR's. Trump did not say he would be putting all Muslims into camps--he merely wants to temporarily stop the flow of immigration and the granting of visas to people who may be secret agents. It doesn't matter if most of them are not secret agents. We are at war, and the nation's security comes first. No country is ever under any inherent obligation to accept refugees, immigrants, or visitors and there is nothing wrong with changing its policy in time of war.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    Finally, reason. I knew if I scoured the 'Reason' comments long enough, I'd find some.
    But, you see, hate trumps Trump.
    Donald does not filter his speech through focus groups like so many candidates, Clinton being the obvious example.
    So he is bound to offend those with delicate, however irrational, sensibilities.
    It's like when your father tells you some of your friends are bad news and you can't hang with them, so you go off in a huff, only to discover ten years later how right he was.
    The People who tell you only the things you want to hear, are not doing you any favors.

  • Hi there!||

    "Donald Trump is not attempting to intimidate us through the use of physical force--like the jihadis are"

    Of course he's not attempting to intimidate US...we're not those Others he's planning to intimidate.

    "--he is merely telling us some of his ideas."

    Ideas?
    1. Build a wall on our southern border. Mexico will provide labor and capital, because of The Deal he will make. It'll be a Good Deal.
    2. Hire a general who is "mean...mean and smart".
    3. Talk to Bill Gates about shutting down maybe just some sections of this "internet thing".
    4. Shut down mosques in spite of "stupid people" talking about civil rights
    5. Begin a trade war with China and, well, every other country we trade with. We'll shoot Good Deals at our enemies.

    Those are just a few...there isn't a good idea, as far as I can tell.

    How smug would you be as a jihadist, knowing all it took was a couple of armed gunmen to get so many people to shit their pants and start calling for a defacto suspension of the constitution. I had thought that clear and present danger clause was for nuclear war, perhaps events like 9/11, as they unfold and threaten our established government directly...but apparently dragging it out for the war on drugs wasn't enough, now we don't even bother with pretense, just cower behind our Big Strong Man.

  • Bob Meyer||

    Donald Trump has accomplished two significant things.

    One, he has shown that there was not, is not and will probably never be a "libertarian moment". Too many of Ron Paul's supporters were merely anti-establishment, not pro-liberty. They didn't blame the government for their problems, they only wanted to blame something other than themselves. For them, a police state and illegal immigrants were interchangeable.

    Two, he has revealed the Republican party to be nothing but impotent whiners. The party was a facade with no ideological structure behind it. It was doomed to collapse eventually but Trump, like the nut dropped by the squirrel in "Ice Age", triggered an avalanche. Rand Paul, by virtue of his indecision, was buried in it.

    In 2008 it was hard to imagine that the Democrats could find someone much worse than Bush but they did it effortlessly. Now, both parties are hurling towards the two worst statists in either party as their future nominees.

    "Well, it's rather brutal here. Right now we are advising all our clients to put everything they've got into canned food and shotguns. " - Brainy Gremlin (Tony Randall) in "Gremlins 2"

  • Underzog||

    It is typical of the Rhömites of "Reason Magazine" that in calling Mr. Trump a bad person, they do not mention his famous and vicious attack on the Jewish Pamela Geller. Trump may be a bad person for the stuff he said against Muslims, but not Jews such as Pamela Geller. Hell! "Reason Magazine's," self hating Ekaterina (Jihad) Jung publishes an article saying how horrible it is Pamela Geller is. Antisemites are bad people, too. Your support of Donald Trump's attacks on Pamela Geller (that doesn't make him a bad person, eh?) show that so-called "Reason Magazine" is bad, too. "Reason Magazine's (better named German Romanticism Magazine)" is trash and was a second holocaust of the Jews via Israel. Then, they'll deny the second holocaust as they do the first.

  • RickCaird||

    Suderman is not very bright. What Trump said is that we need to close the borders to Muslims until we get our arms around how to vet them. Clearly, neither Suderman nor anyone else thinks we are doing a great job now. So, Suderman needs to get off his high horse of anti Trump bs and contribute to the the discussion of how we vet our potential enemies.

  • Underzog||

    Incidentally, while "Reason Magazine" loathes Jews too much to mention Donald Trump's hypocritical attacks against Pamela Geller, the Daily Beast is not as infected wth such antisemitism and does call "The Donald" out on his hypocrisy vis a vis Pamela Geller and Islam.

    There's no need to fear. Underzog is here..

  • Hi there!||

    Behold Cthulhu in His Mighty Ambiguity! His Unutterable Gibberish! His Rancid Madness! His Filthy Monument to Nonsense....a divide-by-zero error is our New Leader!

  • Hi there!||

    Perhaps the Trumplodites and their servants, the ones apologizing for polls indicating support for this insipid moron based on their "right to be fed up" or some other distraction, need reminding: When government is allowed to ostracize or demonize a particular faith, or take punitive action against a political ideology or nationality by means outside the law, then government doing the same to your favored faith or ideology is likely just around the corner. Public opinion on such matters can sway quickly against your worldview, too. As such policy invariably turns to shit, people (usually progressives, in my estimation) will start looking for more groups and ideologies to blame. Government by feelz is always right around the corner from war....I know it's a platitude, but the examples are too numerous to list, and I see enough apologies from libertarians, agreement from the right and some truly hopeless contingent of the left on Trump, it sounds like people need these things explained to them in simple terms.

    I truly don't know which is worse, so far as the two front-runners are concerned: The mean, bigoted moron with no experience or the experienced, connected, criminal politician who actually knows the laws she's breaking.

  • Jonathon||

    Maybe just putting an end to legal immigration until we can fix the illegal immigration would not be a bad idea.

  • Hi there!||

    Well, regardless of the cost/benefit ratio of all that (which I will bet is damned high), at least you can couch it in something you don't have to piss all over the constitution on our way to doing, maybe? Maybe just a little sprinkle on the 10th or the 14th amendments or something?

  • AFSlade||

    Okay. I think you win. Best Overall Comment Contributions on THE BEST DAY OF COMMENTS EVER (!!).
    (Not quite the volume of SF or HM, who provided many great moments, today, but these three right here, especially with the Cthulhu comment to lead...Nikki, of course, was the worst).

    When this all goes up in flames, it will be the comments that are missed...

    Fuck, I am high right now.

  • GamerFromJump||

    I look forward to the hard-hitting follow up: "Trump is a big meaniepants poopyhead!"

    Laying opinions aside, that headline is just so grade school.

  • KHFleischer||

    Mr. Trump would be aptly attired in heavy greasepaint, fright wig, a shiny red ball on his nose, and a bell-festooned, brightly-colored conical cap. In this way, his audience would more clearly understand what he is about, and they would respond more appropriately.

  • dconlaw1||

    The Donald will have such a classy presidency. And the winning. Don't get me started on the winning.
    His "You don't like me because I don't need your money" was a Declaration of Independence from the Wall St. NeoCon pantsuit crowd.
    His zany over-the-toupe eyepokes are more genuine than HRC's focus grouped poll-tested donor-driven drivel.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    He runs his mouth off when he said choose his words with more care.
    Like any public person, he needs to be kept on a short leash.
    But is he a bad person? If he is, than most of us are too.
    For he is saying out loud what many millions of us are thinking to ourselves.

  • Cloudbuster||

    The term "fascist" surely has gotten thrown around a lot here. But never defined. I believe it was Orwell who said that the term "fascist" has come simply to mean "undesirable things." It's an empty word as most use it.

    Fascism is primarily an economic system. Properly defined, we are indeed moving toward fascism in the U.S. -- strong government control of privately owned corporations and the labor system. Many of our economic sectors are so heavily regulated that they can do almost nothing without government approval. Labor unions are in full partnership with the U.S. government due to special legal considerations granted to them by the government that no other private institutions receive.

    Our move toward fascism has literally nothing to do with Donald Trump.

    The way that Trump is most fascistic is in his support of the Kelo vs. New London decision, but that's not what people are talking about here. On foreign economic policy, he seems like a protectionist, but unless every protectionist ever is also a fascist, that, too, does not equal fascism. Don't get me wrong, Trump probably is a fascist, but for reasons wholly unrelated to the topic of this article.

    Fascism really doesn't have a specific foreign policy component. You can in theory have an isolationist, non-aggressive fascist state, a transnationalist fascist state, or an expansionist nationalist fascist state.

    Stop throwing around "fascist" as if it means something in regards to this conversation.

  • Hi there!||

    From what I can tell, half the comments section at Reason is "more libertarian than thou" people deciding what derisive "ism" to call other people.

  • Win Bear||

    Progressives in the US are busy trying to redefine "fascism" to mean something like "populist white male" for the simple reason that progressives are themselves ideologically far closer to fascism than anybody else. In fact, the most fascist politician in this election is Bernie Sanders, by far: his economic and government spending ideas are almost straight out of 1930's fascist party programs (but then, I guess, Sanders is also a "populist white male").

    Donald Trump doesn't have a political program as far as I can tell; he just seems to be a loudmouth. http://www.ontheissues.org/Donald_Trump.htm I suspect he'd be an incompetent president, but probably not a fascist.

  • Hi there!||

    * "ist" perhaps instead of "ism", but you get my meaning.

  • Ron||

    Of course what a lot of people who are supporting trump are ignoring is that he is using the same argument that the gun confiscaters are taking. they don't know which gun will be use their guns in a crime so all guns must be removed. Of course Obama and the left and many on this site use the same argument about cops if one cop is bad all cops are bad if one christian kills all christians are killers so I would say everyone is as bad as Trump.

  • beaker55||

    Don't forget, Jimmy Carter (friend of Hamas...) banned all Iranians from entering US in 1979 and his Attorney General gave all Iranian students one month to report to the local immigration office. Around 7,000 were found in violation of their visas. Around 15,000 Iranians were forced to leave the US.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Tell Hillary this...

  • HenryC||

    Donald Trump reminds me of the high school bully that used insults and arrogance to get attention, but never actually hit anyone. The jerk that everyone put up with because he never really hurt anyone, just annoyed everyone.

  • BeefJokey||

    "Fuck You" - Donald Trump

  • pushpadevi||

    Happy New Year 2016
    thanks a lot

  • wootendw||

    Trump is a bad person although not so much for reasons stated here. He is a bad person when he engages government authorities to seize people's homes and other property under eminent domain laws so that Trump can acquire property the owner doesn't want to sell. He has done this a number of time with notable instances of people fighting back (Vera Coking and Michael Forbes).

    The other bad things about Trump are not as bad as things about most of the other candidates except Rand Paul. Every other candidate, including Hillary, is talking war with Russia when (1) Russia has done nothing to US, (2) is not a (conventional military) threat to US and (3), Russia is cleaning up the horrific mess 'our' government and its proxies have made in the Middle East over the past 25 years (not to mention Serbia and Ukraine). War with Russia would be extremely dangerous to the entire planet as Putin would likely prefer being nuked to going out like Saddam or Qaddafi.

  • Hi there!||

    Service members calling for us to wipe our collective ass with our constitution because some terrorists threaten us should be the ones deported...and this all in the name of "security measures" that offer no real benefit to the safety of the nation, and damage our credibility for eons to follow...

    You swore an oath...what are you going to do when our way of life experiences a real military threat? Pussies, the lot of you.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Republican voters want him, not leeching beltway nationalsocialists. He likes libertarians, wants medical marijuana legalized and favors federal pot prohibition repeal. Of course Reason has to attack him! How dare he embarrass Washington insiders?
    So... when's the next article on how balanced, intelligent, safe and sane Rubio, Ted, the other antiabortion prohibitionist and Jeb Clampitt Bush are?

  • Hi there!||

    You'll find no shortage of anti-libertarian stances on drug policy, foreign trade, war, surveillance, etc. among the rest of the rogues' gallery we have running. Donald does not get a free pass just because he supports pot legalization, no more than Sanders gets one for his views on drugs. Donald compounds the issue by at least acting, if not demonstrating outright he doesn't understand how the office works, he pontificates on foreign treaties he's obviously never read, and on just about every aspect of trade, taxes, and the economy he has not a coherent thought. And it's like he went down the bill of rights like a checklist, offering some bs stance on every issue regarding liberty and personal freedoms (besides pot?)...is he just pandering? Does he really believe all this crap? Should I have to guess? If puking up nonsense and falling flat on his face on just about every issue of significance is all "just part of the plan", then I have to say, he has a stupid plan and I can't vote for him.

  • Hank Phillips||

    I would rather cut off all my fingers than vote republican. Still, none of the rest of the republicans seem less idiotic, bigoted, dangerous, creepy or misinformed than Trump Perot. Most of the really asinine stuff he's spouted has been a repetition of something one of the others belched up first. The only contenders that are even as good as Trump on ANYTHING are down in 15th place quoted at 100 to 1 odds. Rubio, Ted, Christie, the Kenyan antiabortionist, Jeb Clampitt Bush III are all slimier, more mendacious, creepier, stupider, more murderous and superstitious, and way more parasitical than two or three Trumps put together. Methinks ye doth protest too much.

  • Win Bear||

    I don't see any consistent political program by Trump at all, and he seems to contradict himself when he takes positions. He is also not particularly libertarian.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Donald_Trump.htm

  • lnardozi||

    I can't believe I'm reading these replies on Reason.com. They look like they'd be more at home on CNN or something. Now true, The Donald is a huge blowhard asshole who is the jingling of keys to distract small children from real candidates, but fasicst? Racist? Really? Here at Reason.com, the site renowned for... reason? I cannot contain my disappointment. Children.

  • Nyarlarrythotep||

    I go back and forth, but I don't think it's so far-fetched. Consider his behavior, and his rhetoric. Your tone suggests that you think there's something beyond the pale about fascism, but I don't think it's so exotic.

    I -am- surprised that Trump turned out to be such a fascist dickhead, though. I didn't think he was quite that bad.

  • Hi there!||

    Bernie Sanders has a raft of anti-freedom shit in his platform, when do we start propping him up with "oh, he doesn't REALLY plan to drive the cost of education through the roof and institute a command economy based around entitlements...he's just 'jangling the keys' to distract everyone from other candidates!" I honestly don't know why Trump's Great Things are better than Bernie's Great Things when it comes to reasons to forgo liberty.

  • PB||

    "Trump is a bad person"...

    Wow ... you've convinced me..

    rotflol

    W

  • raymond_m||

    Trump's is Chaplinesque fascism.

    Real American fascism - the dangerous version - is more subtle. It can be seen in laws which make "USPersons" property of the state, even if only on a percentage basis. It's at work in prisons, where rape is a tool of control and where the state can end life. It is Guantanamo and murder-by-cop, irs passport cancellation and civil forfeiture, torture and Executive kill lists.

    While "everything is in the state, nothing outside…", crowds are being distracted by an idiot with a big hate-shaped ball full of hot air.

  • Hank Phillips||

    crowds are being distracted by an idiot


    Distracted from knowing that there is a party that parlays their votes into lower taxes and repeal of murderous coercion laws at ten times the bang per buck. That is the objection I have to fake "third" non-party candidates conjured up my the media for a hand in that Nixon subsidy money sitting right there in the till.

  • Hank Phillips||

    Which of the Republican hopefuls is a good person? I know the info must be in that screed somewhere, but where?

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