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How Responsible is the (Pro-Life or Black Lives Matter) Movement for (the Planned Parenthood Shooting or Cop Killings)?

Using criminal actions to discredit broader movements is toxic, and will probably be used against you too.

wonderferret/flickrwonderferret/flickrSince last year, when the Black Lives Matter police reform movement first coalesced, it has been blamed by police apologists and critics of the movement for a number of police killings. Critics argued the reform movement created a hostile environment for cops—one that leads to violence against them.

"Black lives matter is a murder movement," the refrain goes. Last month, Chris Christie one-upped the rhetoric by claiming President Obama was encouraging "lawlessness" and not supporting law enforcement officials. Not true.

This weekend, after a gunman walked into a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado to kill people and take hostages, the president specifically singled out the killing of a police officer as a tragedy.

Many supporters of Planned Parenthood, meanwhile, began to advance the argument that the political attacks on Planned Parenthood were in part responsible for the actions of the gunmen, whose motives and affiliations are still largely unclear.

The president of Planned Parenthood Rocky Mountains, for example, said a "negative environment" around Planned Parenthood contributed to the attack.

Others don't just blame pro-lifers, but all Christians (even though, obviously, not all pro-lifers are Christians and not all Christians are pro-life, but hey, it's ok for people of conscience to stereotype sometimes right?). "Is Political Rhetoric Inciting Christians to Violence?" Huffington Post asks, surely a line of questioning neoconservatives can learn from to attempt to connect Islamist terrorism to domestic anti-war causes.

Another blogger at Huffington Post declared that the "use of the word 'murder' is incendiary, inciting to violence, and it must end." Were you not previously aware of the ideological commitments that would link a pro-choice position with a pro-Black Lives Matter one, that argument might sound like the one police unions have used against filmmaker Quentin Tarantino for daring to suggest cops who kill people are murderers.

Of course the cops disagree, as do abortion rights activists about abortion. Neither of those groups, however, are entitled to any kind of monopoly on the definitions of the terms they use. Similarly, supporters of the U.S. drone war object to the use of the word "murder" to describe the killing of people from flying death machines. I'm waiting for the day the pro-war side accuses me of inciting Islamist terrorism because I've expressed concern about the U.S. murdering Muslims around the world.

Comments from Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, a fierce critic of Planned Parenthood, are particularly astonishing for their lack of self-awareness. "So what I would say to anyone who tries to link this terrible tragedy to anyone who opposes abortion or opposes the sale of body parts is, this is typical left-wing tactics," Fiorina told Fox News Sunday. It may be a left-wing tactic at the moment, but it's not a tactic exclusive to it. It was a right-wing tactic when it was about linking the terrible tragedy of the murder of police officers to anyone who opposes police brutality or supports police reforms.

This is insane on both sides. Anti-abortion people who have accused Black Lives Matter of inciting violence against cops (tragically a lot of overlap with these two groups because most people decide their politics based on partisanship, not principles) should consider how they feel being blamed for a murder because of the rhetoric they deploy about an issue they deeply care about and whether that kind of blame makes any more sense when they're on the accusatory and not receiving end of it.

Similarly, people sympathetic to Black Lives Matter who have spent this weekend blaming all pro-lifers, or all Christians, or whatever broader cohort, for inciting violence against Planned Parenthood (also, tragically, a lot of overlap) should consider how substantively similar their arguments and attempts to blame an entire political movement for the actions of one murderer are to the arguments anti-Black Lives Matter people use to blame that entire movement for the actions of one murderer.

And both sides should consider how they've contributed to the unfair attacks against them by deploying such attacks against their own enemies when it suited their political arguments.

Photo Credit: wonderferret/flickr

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  • sarcasmic||

    I'm waiting for the day the pro-war side accuses me of inciting Islamist terrorism because I've expressed concern about the U.S. murdering Muslims around the world.

    I must assume you don't read the comments, since John and others say stupid shit like that every day.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    IF YOU DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH YOU SUPPORT OBAMA!!!!!!!!!11111!1

  • DevilDocNowCiv||

    sarc,

    When from high school, through college, on NPR, and in newspaper stories and on black urban radio (lots of whites are unaware of this, as I was, but made a point of listening to it once in a while when living in Chicago) the PC notion of a White conspiracy to oppress Blacks is regularly spoon fed to whoever is listening. So it's not at all just the occasional talking head on a TV show. That experience of "everybody knows" that society out to get Blacks and help Whites is now taught as "White Privilege" and White students are urged to apologize for thier unfair advantages. In this context, Blacks engaging in "Polar Bear Hunts"-slang for looking for a White to beat up-makes absolutely perfect sense. Any violence or hostility from a Black to a White makes sense in this context.

  • MSimon||

    The Pro Life movement is totally responsible for cop killings.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I thought the cops were responsible for abortions of Black Lives?!

  • Quixote||

    Well, what does "matter" is the fact that all such movements pose a serious threat to society because they seek to erode public confidence in our excellent criminal justice system. This, in fact, is exactly why everyone should support the efforts of New York prosecutors to halt inappropriately deadpan Gmail "parody." Any expression of foolish opposition to those efforts will immediately provoke such erosion—a fact that makes the "First-Amendment" argument of a single dissenting judge in the case all the more farcically reckless. See the documentation of America's leading criminal satire case at:

    http://raphaelgolbtrial.wordpress.com/

  • Suicidy||

    I see what you did there.

  • Idle Hands||

    Both are retarded. Question though have they actually established the deranged mountain man's motives or is this still speculation?

  • The Last American Hero||

    I understand Mountain Man will be on a paid vacation, er administrative leave, while his friends and family pretend to investigate what happened.

  • Juvenile Bluster||

    Everyone is a hypocrite. Film at 11.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    I blame Bush

  • Lee G||

    Epi is a freak. I blame humanity.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    And, for the record. you have it backward - ISIS is responsible for #BlackLivesMatter.

    GET IT RIGHT

  • Ed||

    I thought ISIS was responsible for climate change?

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    Skwerlz are responsible for double posts

  • Ed||

    I thought ISIS was responsible for climate change?

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    Skwerlz are responsible for double posts

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Others don't just blame pro-lifers, but all Christians

    Fucking Christians.

    It has become clear that the Christian ideology is one of murder, hate and terror. TO WAR WITH CHRISTIANITY!

    Where are the Christians condemning this act? They either actively support the action or passively support it by not condemning it.

    And no more Christian refugees, of any nationality, especially of fighting age, as we have no way of knowing which among them are terrorists. We have NO CHOICE but to comply with the precautionary principle.

    How long are we going to continue to tiptoe around the real problem and call it like it is? The real problem is the violent ideology that IS Christianity.

    /principled yokel

  • Jordan||

    Well done.

  • Jordan||

    Seriously though, we should nuke the Vatican.

    Seriously.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    *lights the Eddie signal*

  • sarcasmic||

    Make sure to loot it first.

  • SugarFree||

    I call dibs on the duct tape and aluminum cans.

  • JWatts||

    You can have them, I'm looking for the Giddyup Buttercup rocking horses. And maybe some gold watches.

  • SugarFree||

    Go to the Atomotoys Factory. There's dozens of Giddyup Buttercup heads, legs, bodies and whole horses.

  • Detroit Linguist||

    I've actually seen organized FB posts saying exactly this. With no hint of irony.

  • The Last American Hero||

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Oh, sure. You find one example and that makes your case?

    Every Christian who's not marching in the streets decrying this act of barbarism is condoning the action. Such sympathisers deserve a fiery death without due process of law!

  • Illocust||

    It's a nice try at equivalency, but it fails on the fact that there are organized Muslim murder groups (also known as terrorist organizations) dedicated to killing outsiders. Christians don't have a modern day equivalent. When Christians go crazy and kill people, they do it as a lone nut. Muslims currently do it by signing up with like minded people and working together to plot mass murder.

    Maybe you could draw an equivalence between some skin head groups and Christianity as a whole, but it'd be a hard sale to show it as fundamental to their organizations as opposed to something some of them claim.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Me thinks you've completely missed the point.

  • Suicidy||

    Nah, Christians are fine. Just keep out the Muslims. And those smelly folks from the Marshall Islands.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    both sides should consider how they've contributed to the unfair attacks against them by deploying such attacks against their own enemies when it suited their political arguments.

    And my pet unicorns should stop pooping glitter.

  • ||

    They really should. That stuff gets everywhere.

  • Juvenile Bluster||

    Glitter glue is man's greatest invention if you have a young child at home.

  • Zeb||

    Somehow I made it through childhood without glitter anything.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    "Zeb can't get ice cream
    cause he's on the welfare!"

    /Eddie Murphy

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    I made it through a strip club without getting glitter on anything.

    *hangs head in shame*

  • ||

    My wife wants a unicorn. They poop glitter?

    That seals it. Hell no. That shit gets everywhere and the vacuum cleaner has no effect on it.

  • Princess Trigger||

    But we can still blame all the Muslims [Christians] in the galaxy for some murders in Paris [Colorado]?

  • MSimon||

    There is a simple traditional solution to all this back and forth. Blame the Jews.

  • kinghiram91||

    I KNEW IT! THE REPTILIAN NWO ZIONIST CABAL WAS BEHIND IT ALL! MUH BILDERBERG! MUH CFR! MUH TRILATERAL COMMISSION!

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "I'm waiting for the day the pro-war side accuses me of inciting Islamist terrorism because I've expressed concern about the U.S. murdering Muslims around the world."

    Or how criticizing the civil-liberties implications of "antiterrorism" policies gives aid and comfort to terrorism?

  • Notorious UGCC||

    Ask the Bush supporters about linking critics to terrorists*:

    "while young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrats' manic obsession to bring down our Commander in Chief.""

    "Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin [D-Ill] to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals."

    "These baseless attacks send the wrong signal to our troops and to an enemy that is questioning America's will."

    "Democrats should to be focused on winning the War on Terror, not undermining it with political axe-grinding of the ugliest kind."

    "If I fight on in my campaign, all the way to the convention, I would forestall the launch of a national campaign and make it more likely that Senator Clinton or Obama would win. And in this time of war, I simply cannot let my campaign, be a part of aiding a surrender to terror."

    *Note to Tony: I'm making a broader point here, I'm not blaming everything on Dumbya.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    I would be interested in hearing from the Democrats can turn from "how dare they say that comparing Bush to 'Nazis, Soviets...or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others' encourages the terrorists!" to "Denouncing abortion encourages the terrorists!"

  • Notorious UGCC||

    hearing from the Democrats *how they* can turn from

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Eddie has overcome our tactic of not responding to trolls.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    Tony is somewhat coherent - his problem is not that he dissents from libertarianism but that he confuses libertarians with Fox News viewers. If he got over that tic, he'd have a perfectly legitimate contribution to the debate. If a wrong one.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    He also has the idea that y'all get your talking points from Glenn Beck.

    So it's not *his* positions which are annoying so much as his unawareness of the positions of others.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    I disagree. In addition to misidentifying the motives and beliefs of other posters, Choney ALSO makes retarded, annoying, donwright stupid arguments.

    Constantly.

    All of which makes him the loathsome puke that he is.

  • JWatts||

    " his problem is not that he dissents from libertarianism "

    Tony supports greater wealth redistribution, government regulation and taxes. So yes he does dissent from libertarianism.

  • Zeb||

    Edie wasn't suggesting otherwise. But that Tony wouldn't be terrible if he would stop conflating libertarians with Fox News Republicans.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    "his dissent from libertarianism is not his problem"

  • rudehost||

    Certainly not his largest one although I don't know how you can be a libertarian and believe dissent from libertarianism isn't a problem. Being wrong is generally a problem.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    I'm not a libertarian. I'm a clerico-fascist shitlord.

  • Suicidy||

    Is that a new AD&D 5th Edition multi-class? Or is Fascist Shitlord some special rules variant? What feats does it come with?

  • Zeb||

    If you treat everyone who is not a libertarian like people treat Tony here (not that he doesn't ask for it and deserve most of it), you're kind of a dick. Reasonable people can and do disagree about lots of things. And it's not good to exclude everyone who you think has things wrong from the conversation.

    I think that's Eddie's point, not that Tony is a fine, right-thinking person who we should all agree with.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    Indeed.

  • ||

    Y'all keep forgetting that the Tony troll is a sock puppet. On more than one occasion the person who runs him has slipped up by forgetting to change handles before making anti-Tony posts. I was around for the latest and it was obvious.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    link

  • Zeb||

    I'm still not convinced. Could that not be an example of someone spoofing Tony and then forgetting to change handles?

    I don't know why it is so hard for people to believe that he is an actual person (at least sometimes). If it is a sock-puppet, someone has put an awful lot of work into it over a lot of years.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    My (completely irrelevant) question is this:

    What makes anybody think the "solution" to dissenting ideas or behaviors is murder?

    It's not the availability of guns, or shillelaghs, or tenth story windows, that causes the problem. It's thinking, "Anybody who isn't just like me/us deserves to die."

  • tarran||

    Soooooo, teach men not to rape? ;)

  • Suicidy||

    Buy a man a whore and he gets laid for a day. Teach a man to rape and he can fuck for a lifetime. Or some such thing.

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    ^Exactly this.

  • ||

    What makes anybody think the "solution" to dissenting ideas or behaviors is murder?

    The ideas and behaviors held or propagated by bodies does become much more simple upon death. Further, much of the 'creates more problems than it solves' counter-arguments are posited under the implication/threat that the state will find you and will do something about it (not that mass murderers are coherent at this level).

    At least, I have a hard time understanding why officers and criminals would murder someone, or homeowners employ lethal force, if it really were such a non-solution to dissenting ideas or behavior.

  • Zeb||

    What are you trying to say here? I'm honestly perplexed. Killing someone who is threatening you or your home, or killing someone to silence them is a rather different situation from killing someone because they share ideas held by millions of people or provide services that thousands of other people also provide.

    Or am I missing it?

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Many supporters of Planned Parenthood, meanwhile, began to advance the argument that the political attacks on Planned Parenthood were in part responsible for the actions of the gunmen

    Call me crazy...I blame the gunman and only the gunman.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    You're crazy!

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    DAMN! I've suspected as much.

  • Zeb||

    Yeah, almost everyone who has heard the political attacks on PP managed not to murder anyone. Maybe the political debate inspired him in some sense. But people have also been inspired to murder a bunch of people by Batman movies and neighbors dogs.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    Well, in fairness, the Batman movies pretty much all suck....

    *runs away*

  • Zeb||

    If it had anything to do with the suckage of the movie, then there would have been a massacre at every screening of Batman and Robin.

  • ||

    There was. Of good taste.

  • Zeb||

    That has to be by far the worst movie I've ever seen in the theater.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    both sides should consider how they've contributed to the unfair attacks against them by deploying such attacks against their own enemies when it suited their political arguments.

    A lie in service to the narrative is the ultimate form of truth.

  • ||

    +1 Lakoff

  • Ron||

    the difference is that BLM has called for the killing of cops where as I have not heard, at least on the national news level, pro-lifers calling for the killing of abortionist

  • ||

    The entire BLM movement has called for the killing of cops?

  • John DeWitt||

    Yes. There was a post that one time. On the twitter.

  • Zeb||

    Did they call for killing cops with or without woodchippers?

    I'm sure if you look a bit you can find that there are at least as many pro-lifers calling for abortionists to be killed as there are BLM activists calling for cops' deaths.

  • Ron||

    notice i wrote on the National news level, there will always be a few crazies somewhere calling for their deaths but they are crackpots that are normally ignored where as BLM has several times called for cop killings of course not all but enough to make the news even on this site.

  • Ed||

    Links?

  • commodious spittoon||

    You'll have to wait for the P.M. thread like everyone else, Krayewski. No exceptions!

  • Suicidy||

    So? There are far more pro-lifers than there are BLM kooks.

  • Zeb||

    Sew buttons.

    Very few members of either group call for or carry out murders. Some pro-lifers definitely have murdered abortion providers. There is no clear case of a BLM activist killing police.

    I don't think it matters and I'm not trying to make any point about the BLM or pro-life movements in general. In any case it is all on the individual and it is ridiculous to blame the broader movements for extremely rare acts of violence. There are unhinged people ready to call for or perpetrate violence in the name of any cause you can think of.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Every time I read these threads, I keep asking myself what this controversy over the Bureau of Land Management is.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    In the Almanian Administration™, we will eliminate the Bureau of Land Management, thus ending this long, national nightmare once and for all.

    Almanian for President - 2016 (if I live that long)
    I Probably Won't Make It Any Worse

  • Suicidy||

    I've thought about running on a platform of mass euthanization of progressives. Coupled with a streamlined guest worker program that lets one foreigner in per progtard euthanized. And maybe some kind of trading system for prog pelts.

  • The Last American Hero||

    It had something to do with Harry Reid's family and cattle ranchers.

  • macsnafu||

    Ha! It must be confusing trying to find a link between supporting the Bureau of Land Management and killing policemen! ;-) After all, don't they want policemen to enforce BLM decisions?

  • Suicidy||

    I thought they used the National Guard, or Homeland Security for that sort of thing anymore.

  • MSimon||

  • Jordan||

    He's a dick, but the people who sued him are bigger dicks. Good outcome.

  • Notorious UGCC||

    So you're saying that CAIR activists have bigger dicks?

    /sarc

  • The Late P Brooks||


    It has become clear that the Christian ideology is one of murder, hate and terror. TO WAR WITH CHRISTIANITY!

    But America is a Christian nation. That means...

    ERROR! ERROR! ANALYZE. ANALYYYYYZE!

  • Swiss Servator||

    The only way out is honorable seppuku.

  • sarcasmic||

    Here's a few questions that are never asked when a cop is ambushed:

    Did the officer or does the department have a history abuse complaints?

    If yes, were the complaints investigated or dismissed, and was there any discipline?

    I assume that those questions are not asked because the answers wouldn't make the fallen hero look so heroic.

  • JWatts||

    Umm, by that logic. If a sorority girl were raped, you'd logically question if the girl or her sorority had a history of dressing provocatively.

    Ambushing a cop is not a legitimate reaction to police abuse. At least not until non-violent means have been exhausted. A political protest (ie BlackLivesMatter) is a legitimate reaction. If the cops forceably arrest or shutdown the protesters, then maybe you have a legitimate reason to escalate the situation. On the other hand, if the cops do nothing and everyone ignores your protests, then maybe it's not as big an issue with the general public as the protesters believe it to be.

  • sarcasmic||

    Ummm, no. Sorority girls, as far as I know, don't go around beating and kidnapping people for a living.

    And I never said it was a legitimate reaction. Only a provoked one.

  • Suicidy||

    I wouldn't mind being kidnapped by some hot sorority chicks. I would probably develop Stockholm Syndrome pretty quickly. Especially if they made their sex slave.

  • Seguin, the Mighty Monoclops||

    Ummm, no. Sorority girls, as far as I know, don't go around beating and kidnapping people for a living

    I have several gigs of video evidence on my hard drive that prove you wrong.

  • Intraveneous Woodchipper||

    LOL. Thank you.

    Linkz?!

  • sarcasmic||

    It's more like the concept of blowback. Saying that Western medding in the Middle East has pissed some people off enough for them to become terrorists isn't saying that it is a legitimate reaction.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I'm just asking, but is it morally legit to ambush the cops who murdered Kelly Thomas, Tamir Rice or Eric Garner, since all non violent means of achieving justice failed?

  • Illocust||

    If you are directly related to one of those people or were good friends with the person, then yes it could be morally acceptable as long as you've reviewed all the evidence and exhausted all legal means to punish them.

  • sarcasmic||

    So you would not consider someone roving the country exacting Punisher style justice on criminal cops to be morally legit?

  • ThomasD||

    Why does familial relationship matter? That's plain old tribalism.

    If you were walking down the street and saw some guy pistol whipping a five year old would you be justified in intervening? Would you be justified not intervening because he wasn't part of your bloodline?

  • josh||

    correlation....sure.

    causation....not so much.

  • Zeb||

    Love the "Down With This Sort of Thing" sign. Where's "Careful Now"?

  • Slammer||

    "I'm so angry I made a sign" sign.

  • commodious spittoon||

    Careful, now.

  • commodious spittoon||

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Maybe the guy just wanted a warm place to sleep, and regular meals.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    "Is Political Rhetoric Inciting Christians to Violence?" Huffington Post asks, surely a line of questioning neoconservatives can learn from to attempt to connect Islamist terrorism to domestic anti-war causes.

    Strangely, I know this makes me worse than Hitler, but if Christians were continuously engaged a long string of violent acts around the globe, flying planes into buildings, blowing themselves up, decapitating people, drowning their enemies in cages, shooting up shopping malls and hotels in multiple, coordinated attacks, I think it would be a reasonable question to ask.

  • Certified Public Asshat||

    At least Thanksgiving is over, so now we don't have to hear about how the holiday is evil because Christians killed Indians Native Americans.

  • Zeb||

    Anyway, Columbus day is the holiday for that. Thanksgiving is for being nice to helpful Indians.

  • Certified Public Asshat||

    If only for a day, which is fine by me.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    if Christians were continuously engaged a long string of violent acts around the globe

    You mean like blowing up wedding parties in attempts to kill suspected terrorists that had nothing to do with 9-11? Toppling regimes that had nothing to do with 9-11 and installing our puppets?

    You see, from their perspective, we are every bit as bad.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Well, that would be a nice example if those were Christian Acts, but they're not, they're US Government Acts. And I condemn those acts of murder. It sure would be nice if the media would ask hard questions about those, even when their guy is pulling the levers.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Well, that would be a nice example if those were Christian Acts, but they're not

    They don't distinguish any more than the yokels here distinguish between Muslims and terrorists.

    They are, by and large, theocracies. Everything is viewed through a religious lens. The US is 70.6% Christian. In their eyes, they are being bombed by Christians.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Well, we're kind of talking about two different things now.

    You're talking more about how the people in the ME perceive us or our actions.

    I'm really responding (and trying to limit discussion) to the characterization that Huffpo put on it.

    I know very well that ISIS, Bin Laden et al see us as a Christian nation, and paint our acts as Christian acts. That's fine.

    But really, I'm trying to focus on how the American media analyzes our own culture.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    Can you cite one example anywhere of anyone saying that all Muslims are terrorists?

  • The Last American Hero||

    Sam Harris comes close. But then again, he has lots of kooky thoughts.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Can you cite one example anywhere of anyone saying that all Muslims are terrorists?

    First visit to the H&R comment section?

  • Zeb||

    There are quite a few here who have been arguing that the terrorists are the real Muslims and all the other so-called "Muslims" who don't kill all the infidels at any opportunity are half-assing it like Unitarians or something.

  • Intraveneous Woodchipper||

    Fucking Unitarians...

  • NotAnotherSkippy||

    I blame the crusades. It's all Richard the Lionheart's fault.

  • ThomasD||

    "They don't distinguish any more than the yokels here distinguish between Muslims and terrorists."

    That's double nonsense. No one thought Libya under Kaddhafi or Iraq under Saddam were fomenting terrorism out of religious fervor. To name but two examples.

  • Suicidy||

    So we only go after terrorists that were involved in 9/11?

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    EXACTLY (or those that have actually attacked Americans).

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    Yeah, I don't see the comparison as being valid.

    - Worse than the guy who's worse than Hitler

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Meanwhile, in other domestic terrorism news...

    The pair were arrested and booked at the Sheriff's Department's Lost Hills Station on suspicion of several misdemeanor charges, including brandishing a replica firearm and causing a false emergency. Each is being held in lieu of $15,000 bail, Rotella said.

    Their identities were not released because they had not yet been interviewed. Both are residents of Ventura County.

    “While the intentions of these two individuals might have been harmless, the fact that anyone would appear in a public place displaying a replica firearm is troubling," Sheriff's Department Capt. Patrick S. Davoren said. "These two men put themselves and our community at risk."

    Will they be forced to make restitution for all those deputies' soiled uniforms?

    Those kids are lucky to be alive. Filming without a permit is serious business.

  • Almanian's Rusty Woodchipper||

    And brandishing a FAKE weapon? That's just....criminal.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "causing a false emergency"

    Why isn't every politician in that county in jail?

  • ||

    Aren't they literally literally being arrested under false pretenses?

  • Rich||

    How Responsible is the (Pro-Life or Black Lives Matters) Movement for (the Planned Parenthood Shooting or Cop Killings)?

    Didn't Hillary take full responsibility?

  • Azathoth!!||

    the actions of the gunmen, whose motives and affiliations are still largely unclear.

    Why are they still unclear? Surely they've questioned him already. We've had clarity on motive quicker from people they shot dead.

    What's the holdup?

  • DesigNate||

    Maybe his motive doesn't fit the narrative?

  • Mickey Rat||

    It is a repeat of their insistence after the Giffids shooting that partisan political rhetoric and war metaphors must be eliminated from political duscourse, at least until the next Democrat fundraising mass mailing.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The shooter isn't your next door neighbor.

    He's in custody, and he's going to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    A society in which people want to hold their next door neighbors responsible for crimes they didn't commit is an unjust society. A society in which people think violating their neighbor's rights will protect us from crimes that might be committed in the future is a stupid and irresponsible society.

    And it's specifically an irresponsible idiot thinks the government should hold people responsible for crimes they might commit in the future. That's the essence of paternalism, right there.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    "This weekend, after a gunman walked into a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado to kill people and take hostages,"

    I keep hearing this, but is there any confirmation this is the case? Is their any confirmation anywhere that anyone at the PP clinic was shot?

  • Zeb||

    According to this, both of the non-police dead were doing something at the PP. So I think that's a yes.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015.....-iraq-war/

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    OK thanks!

  • Old.Mexican||

    How Responsible is the (Pro-Life or Black Lives Matter) Movement for (the Planned Parenthood Shooting or Cop Killings)?


    I have yet to see a good-sized group of Pro-Life demonstrators walking through the streets chanting "What do we want? DEAD ABORTIONISTS! When do we want them? NOW!" for blocks and blocks and blocks...

    Just sayin'.

    Many supporters of Planned Parenthood, meanwhile, began to advance the argument that the political attacks on Planned Parenthood were in part responsible for the actions of the gunmen [...]


    And I am sure these PP supporters were the first to denounce the BLM protesters who wanted dead cops now. Am I right or am I right?

    The BIG difference between Marxians and the rest of us human beings in Western society, Ron, is that the rest of us are fairly consistent in that we don't condone murder.

  • Old.Mexican||

    Sorry. The BIG difference between Marxians and the rest of us human beings in Western society, Ed, is that the rest of us are fairly consistent in that we don't condone murder.

  • Suicidy||

    And progs HAVE NO SOULS!

  • Gilbert Martin||

    A Waffle House waitress in Biloxi, MS was shot and killed by a customer after she had asked him to put out his cigarette as per the restaurant's no smoking policy.

    So if we're going to play the guilt by political advocating game, that means all the anti-smoking zealots are responsible for that murder.

  • Old.Mexican||

    Re: Gilbert Martin,

    So if we're going to play the guilt by political advocating game, that means all the anti-smoking zealots are responsible for that murder.


    To place matters in their proper perspective, there is no case where you have pro-cigarette-smoking demonstrators chanting for the heads of anti-smoking zealots or pro-life demonstrators chanting for the heads of abortionists (and I mean "right now!")

    Let us agree that speech alone cannot incite someone to commit murder. Let's also agree that there is NO basis to make these comparisons between groups by disregarding the degree of nastiness that one presents compared to other groups. If there's one thing I despise about Planned Parenthood is that the organization receives millions in taxpayer money of which most comes from us, taxpayers, whether we agree with PP's politics or not. I despise all thieves but that does not mean I advocate for killing them in a spree of violence. I can't say the same about BLM because there's FUCKING VIDEO OF IT.

  • Suicidy||

    My problem is that PP is an abortion mill making big money off selling fetus parts, all the while getting federal obey to do it. If their abortion mill activities were strictly legal, and without federal money, then I would not be concerned with them.

    But let's be honest, the main reason PP is important to the treasonous progtards is because it's a blatant way to launder big money from our taxes back into democrat campaign coffers. Period.

  • ThomasD||

    Not sure if that's the main reason.

    It also serves to give the illusion of 'freedom' while also keeping the numbers of future government dependents to sub-revolt levels.

  • MSimon||

    speech alone cannot incite someone to commit murder

    A waitress at a waffle/pancake joint asked a patron not to smoke. He killed her.

    --- In the news the last few days.

  • american socialist||

    "Using criminal actions to discredit broader movements is toxic"

    Sorry, no. You're saying that we shouldn't look at where the BLM and pro-life movement have advocated for violence? And we shouldn't judge politicians who have allied themselves with these groups to get themselves elected? Why not?

    Is this where right-wingers conflate one's free speech rights with how someone is treated after they use noxious, offensive, or racist speech?

  • Old.Mexican||

    Re: American Stultified,

    Sorry, no. You're saying that we shouldn't look at where the BLM and pro-life movement have advocated for violence?


    Then we should - right?

    Is this where right-wingers conflate one's free speech rights with how someone is treated after they use noxious, offensive, or racist speech?


    Who can speak for right-wingers? Marxians do exactly that, all the time, BTW.

  • CatoTheYounger||

    I don't know anyone here who believes that people should get a free pass just because they belong to some disadvantaged group.

    Certainly there are some on the left who believe so - that if we criticize the individual members of movements, or point out the generalities that exist between violent movements, that we are automatically against that movement. I can sympathize somewhat with Black Live's Matter's main goal (that police brutality is harming minorities), while condemning the BLM movement for their actions.

    Also, if i can speak for this crowd, we are libertarians, not right-wingers. Get that through your head.

  • Suicidy||

    Hey deadbeat, no one is more noxious, offensive, or racist than left-wingers. Now go pay your fucking mortgage.

  • PM||

    Coming from the local Stalin apologist. Like, literal Stalin apologist. Oh man, you just can't make this shit up.

  • GILMORE™||

    I think this post shamefully belittles the obvious impact climate change is having on all this social unrest.

  • CatoTheYounger||

    My understanding is that the higher temperatures are putting Social Justice Warriors into heat early, causing much higher levels of neuroticism than usual.

  • TimothyLane||

    There are crazies and criminals who will attack someone, and at best something they see causes them to choose one target instead of another. Many of these acts of "political terrorism" fit that pattern, and so do many of the cop-killings. But there are also those who are incited and inspired by political extremism. Some of the cop-killings do seem to fit that pattern. So did Floyd Corkins's attack on the Family Research Council (for which liberals refuse to accept any blame, or even criticize the SPLC, which inspired Corkins). And there are many jihadist attacks all over the world, inspired by the militant portions of the Koran and radical imams whose teaching forcuses on those parts. Dear's attack seems to be in the first group, not the second.

  • Alice Bowie||

    How Responsible is the (Pro-Life or Black Lives Matter) Movement for (the Planned Parenthood Shooting or Cop Killings)?

    The Pro-Life movement didn't push this guy. Those people have a right to their opinion. The Pro-Life people have no right stopping a woman who will be held solely responsible for raising a child from getting an abortion.

    As per black people, given that there have been TWO (2) incidents of specific assasinations of Police Officers since the Media has been reporting the Deaths of black Yuts by Cops, I'd say NONE.

    Want to hear the UGLY TRUTH in AMERICA?

    1. If a WHITE trailer-park trash couple decides to put up their baby for adoption, people will fight over it Multiple people will offer all sorts of money and accomidations including hospital stay, nutritionists, and CASH$$$.

    2. If a Rich White Woman who is a Doctor and becomes pregnant by Ben Carson/Michael Steele/Clarance Thomas or the Crack Nigger on the Corner, that baby can be obtained for FREE.

    The truth is, in America, Black lives are valued as Less.

    Help me white people, what do you call a black guy that grows up from Poverty to overcome challenges and become a Famous Surgeon?

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Doctor?

  • Alice Bowie||

    In America, the answer is Nigger.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Yawn...

  • Alice Bowie||

    I believe your sentiment (Yawn) strikes right at the heart of the "Black Lives Matter" initiative.

    White people merely Yawn them off as if nothing is happening.

  • TimothyLane||

    Actually, conservatives and libertarians have criticized many of the police shootings (I know of none who aren't horrified by the gross atrocity by Rahm Emanuel's Chicago cops). They don't criticize all of them because some of the victims (such as Michael Brown) deserved it, and they don't rush to judgment. I suspect his "yawn" was at your routine, reflexive race-baiting.

  • Alice Bowie||

    I agree that Michael Brown was a THUG that robbed a convient store and roughed up the clerk.
    I also agree that while being apprehended for that crime, he was killed in a hasty way.

    I hate the "hasty way" thing.

    But I agree with you that Michael Brown deserved to be killed and the world is a better place without people like Michael Brown. His crime of assault and robbery and being a classic THUG is a bigger crime than Darren Wilson being your typical racist southern cop.

  • DesigNate||

    As opposed to being your typical racist northern cop *cough*NYPD*cough*?

  • TimothyLane||

    Well, that is in effect what the liberals call Ben Carson. Shouldn't you address your complaint to them instead of us?

  • MSimon||

    In America, the answer is Nigger.

    That is Sooooooo offensive. I feel slighted. The correct answer in America is Jew.

  • DesigNate||

    Racist leftist is racist. Film at 11.

  • Alice Bowie||

    Yes, the LEFT has always been associated and supportive of the racism against blacks.

    Not as open-minded, kind, and fair like Bull Connor and others.

  • DesigNate||

    What party did he belong to, along with fellow racist heroes FDR, LBJ, and Robert Byrd, again?

    Fuck off racist.

  • Alice Bowie||

    At the time, the Democrats represented the RACIST SOUTH.

    After LBJ, the RACIST SOUTH moved to the Republican Party...the party of Lincoln.

    You can't simply look at Dem/Rep without WHEN.

    So stop simplifying it.

  • TimothyLane||

    Orval Faubus was considered progressive until the Little Rock school crisis, and Connor was pro-labor. Nor did the South simply go Republican after LBJ. It was a long, slow process (as of 2000, the Democrats still dominated most of the region's state legislatures), and actually had little to do with race. Sorry to deny your obsession, but facts are facts.

  • DesigNate||

    Robert Byrd was a sitting member of the Senate Democrats until 20fucking10. The Democrats STILL laud LBJ and FDR as great DEMOCRAT presidents. So all of those examples are completely appropriate.

    Man it sucks when facts bite you in the ass, huh?

  • Alice Bowie||

    Both Bull Connor and Martin Luther King, Jr. urinate standing up.

    They also had two eyes each and one head.

  • Win Bear||

    Democrats and progressives haven't changed much in their racist attitudes: they believed in unequal treatment and segregation a century ago just like they do today; then as now, they justify their racism by saying that it helps society and minorities, who wouldn't be able to succeed without government help. The only thing that has changed is that the racism of Democrats now also involves massive government handouts.

  • John Titor||

    You can't simply look at Dem/Rep without WHEN.

    You mean by actually looking at the left-wing policies supported by said racists?

    So stop simplifying it.

    Powerful insight from someone who's arguments consist of screaming 'nigger' and 'I know the market price of babies' (awfully suspicious, by the way).

  • Alice Bowie||

    I'll make it easier for you guys.

    Think LEFT and RIGHT

    Not DEM and REP.

    And remember, either can have features of the other.

  • TimothyLane||

    In other words, you conveniently define left as "racial liberal" and right as "racist", so that Faubus is a "conservative" no matter how progressive he was otherwise. Was Al Gore Sr., a solid liberal who opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, also a conservative? How about J. William Fulbright, who also opposed it? Or, going back further, what about Tom Watson (who was Bryan's Populist running mate in 1896), the infamous Georgia racist?

    And while I'm at it, are you aware of how many conservative Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act? Barry Goldwater opposed because he considered a couple of provisions unconstitutional, but he did have a prior history of anti-racism both in the Arizona Air National Guard (which he played a major role in integrating) and in the Senate, and he was certainly a staunch conservative.

  • PM||

    2. If a Rich White Woman who is a Doctor and becomes pregnant by Ben Carson/Michael Steele/Clarance Thomas or the Crack Nigger on the Corner, that baby can be obtained for FREE.

    Yes, Angeline Jolie got the wholesale discount, as I understand it.

  • The artist known Dunphy||

    It's not cop shootings (reason of course references cop KILLINGs - due to vest, etc cops survive shootings at a much higher rate than average, estimated about 12-15 cops shot for every one killed by gunfire, it's OVERALL homicides and shootings that happen when cops depolice in response to anti cop absurdity.

    We've seen it many times before - cops depolice - crimes specifically homicides spike

    THIS is the legacy of anticop hysteria - scores of shooting vicrime

    You will never see these stats amongst the anticop crap

    http://lawstreetmedia.com/blog.....-declines/

  • Win Bear||

    In different words, police are violent and they are not doing their job.

    I think the real problem is that police are not treated like any other service; when your cleaning service does a poor job or behaves badly, you cancel your contract and hire a new cleaning service. That's what we should do with police as well: replace fat, arrogant, above-the-law police forces with accountable, private, responsive security services.

  • Alan@.4||

    Depends how much "responsibility" can be proven, note PROVEN, not claimed or supposed. Responsibility can be claimed, proving same is another story.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    I find Omaba's rhetoric to functionally be an assault weapon.

  • ConstitutionFirst||

    I'm thinking of all the comments 0bama has made over the years "we bring a gun to a knife fight" "sharpen your elbows" "hit back twice as hard" "we will reward our friends and punish our enemies".
    As we know from Clinton remarks during the last Democratic debate, those 'enemies' are half the nation.
    Yeah, the Left in this Republic is very concerned about hateful rhetoric, as far as it does not serve their masters.

  • psCargile||

    Not responsible at all. Responsibility is with the individual committing the crime. Should not have to say it.

  • jenni47||

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  • Pulseguy||

    I haven't followed the Black Lives Movement all that closely, but aren't they actively calling for the murder of police?

    If so, there is a huge difference between being vehemently opposed to abortion and calling for the murder of abortionists. If the BLM is calling for the murder of police, then yes they are responsible for the murder of some police.

  • Salt Distributor||

    Saying that Western medding in the Middle East has pissed some people off enough for them to become terrorists isn't saying that it is a legitimate reaction.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Tell you what... when the SPLC has even a quarter of the confirmed kills that the pro-life movement has, I might buy into this false equivalency.

    But one shooter (who didn't manage to kill anyone) since the SPLC was founded in 1971, vs. the dozen+ pro-life murders, countless assaults, burned/bombed buildings, constant harassment and so-on?

    Either rhetoric matters, and the SPLC just doesn't use violence-inciting rhetoric, or rhetoric doesn't matter, and the pro-life movement just has a higher-then-average share of violent crazies.

    Neither of those conclusions speaks favorable of the pro-life movement.

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