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Drug Legalization

Did Decriminalizing Drugs Lead to More Deaths in Washington and Oregon?

The Manhattan Institute’s Charles Fain Lehman overstates the evidence supporting that conclusion.

Aaron Brown | 7.24.2026 10:15 AM

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drug-use-deaths | Illustration: Midjourney
(Illustration: Midjourney)

In a recent City Journal article headlined "No, Seriously, Decriminalizing Drugs Kills People," the Manhattan Institute's Charles Fain Lehman claimed a recent National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) paper provided conclusive evidence that "should lay to rest the debate over legalization." I published a rebuttal in Reason, arguing that the study did not close the debate. That provoked a response from Lehman on X.

I will respond to each of Lehman's substantive points and delve more deeply into the research. I communicated with the NBER study's co-authors, including University of Oregon economist Benjamin Hansen, who told me that the researchers "do not end any debate" with their report. I was also in touch with the co-author of a study on crime that Lehman cited on X. He offered a much more sober interpretation of his own research than the one Lehman presented in a Wall Street Journal op-ed.

The NBER paper focuses on Oregon and Washington's brief experiments with decriminalizing drugs, which began in February 2021 as a result of a ballot initiative and a court ruling, respectively. This topic is worthy of careful attention. States are policy laboratories. If other locales plan to try decriminalizing drugs, they should study closely what happened in Oregon and Washington.

The issue is complex because the decriminalization periods were marked by disruptions from COVID-19, fentanyl, and a season of social upheaval. Serious researchers using defensible methods are reaching different conclusions. I took issue with Lehman's claim that the issue was settled by the NBER study and his assertion that "it's hard to see decriminalization as anything but an abject failure."

The paper's authors don't see it that way. "Our research, if anything, restarts the debate," Hansen wrote via email, by raising new questions, such as why decriminalization was associated with more deaths and whether a future iteration of the same policy could avoid them. 

The precise cause of the spike in fatalities during decriminalization is hard to tease out, according to David Hall, a doctoral student in economics at the University of Oregon and another co-author of the NBER paper. In an email, he said that decriminalization bundled together with many simultaneous changes caused the rise in overdose mortality. Identifying which of the factors drove the results, he said, "will be important and also really difficult."

Hansen emphasized that most of the rise in overdose deaths in both states came from the spread of fentanyl. The paper aims to estimate the extent to which decriminalization made the fentanyl crisis worse. Contrary to Lehman's claim, the broad debate on decriminalization of drugs has not been laid to rest.

Jumping to Conclusions 

This isn't the first time advocates have claimed victory for their side. When a 2024 paper found no association between decriminalization and overdose mortality in Oregon, Scientific American quoted Todd Korthuis, the chief of addiction medicine at Oregon Health and Science University, who called it "the study that we were all waiting for." Korthuis said the study showed that fentanyl, not changes to the law, was "the whole story."

Emergency medicine physician Jeremy Faust offered a similar take in an Inside Medicine article. "Study debunks link between Oregon drug decriminalization and overdose deaths," the headline said. "Now we know that neither drug decriminalization nor drug recriminalization was responsible for increases in drug overdose deaths in Oregon and Washington," Faust wrote. "Fentanyl was (and is) the problem." 

With one more year of data, the research points the other way. That's how social science works. But by declaring the issue settled for his side, Lehman committed the same error of leaping to an unjustified conclusion. 

We do know that decriminalization in Oregon and Washington did not deliver the dramatic short-term benefits that advocates (including me) had hoped for. The NBER paper strengthens the case that it caused harm.

A Valuable Study

Is the NBER paper a good study that's worth taking seriously? I think so. Yet I noted that Lehman had selected "a single non-peer-reviewed working paper with equivocal findings from an even more equivocal literature" to slam the door on the debate. He replied:

A good rule of thumb is that anyone who uses "it's not peer reviewed!" as a rebuttal to a study probably doesn't know how to evaluate evidence. https://t.co/TI7Q97J8tx

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

Lehman's underlying point is sound. Plenty of good research hasn't been peer-reviewed. Lack of peer review is not a rebuttal, and I didn't offer it as one.

"Working paper," though, is a phrase that covers everything from rough notes posted by a crank on his personal website to nearly publishable research by serious scholars. That's why I asked the authors about the status of their paper. Hall told me it "could still go through a bit of revision, but I think (hope?) less so than other working papers." Hansen added that while referees will demand new figures and robustness checks, "it's pretty rare that findings completely change."

Working papers circulated for comments can be valuable, and this one is. But completed, peer-reviewed work subjected to replication and objections by other researchers carries more weight. Provisional evidence deserves provisional language, even when it's good evidence.

Is It Statistically Significant? 

How meaningful is it that Oregon and Washington were among the top 10 percent of states in overdose death increases during the decriminalization period? That finding, I wrote, was "on the border of statistical significance"—meaning suggestive but short of conclusive.

Lehman replied:

Among many other absurd things, this article appears to be saying that Oregon and Washington being in the top 10 percent of states for death increases is borderline statistically significant because a p-value of 0.1 is usually described that way. (H/t @besttrousers) https://t.co/hEbxCji6Gr pic.twitter.com/pbV0gCZzmK

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

Lehman assumed I was conflating these states' ranking in "the top 10" with a p-value of 0.1. That's not what I was saying, and I should have been clearer. 

My point is that two decriminalization states landing in the top 10 percent of states for overdose death increases is, by itself, enough to go looking for a reason, but not so unlikely that we can rule out coincidence. The border of statistical significance is the line dividing results that can be plausibly dismissed from results that demand explanation. 

If 10 geographically and culturally diverse states had decriminalized at different times and witnessed the 10 largest increases in overdose deaths immediately afterward, that would have clear statistical significance: The association between decriminalization and an increase in overdoses could not be plausibly ascribed to coincidence. If a single state decriminalized and saw an overdose increase, however large, the effect could have been caused by something else that changed around the same time.

In this case, with two similar states decriminalizing around the same time and landing in the top 10 percent of overdose increases, you have something in between. It takes painstaking analysis to determine whether the association is statistically significant at conventional levels. This painstaking analysis to rank decriminalization states against constructed controls is exactly what papers on both sides of the debate do.

Does Harm Reduction Work?

I argued that what kills drug users is not the opioid molecule but "not knowing whether the powder in front of them is a dose or a coffin." I cited Switzerland, which slashed drug fatalities by dispensing pharmaceutical-grade heroin, meaning users weren't poisoned by fentanyl. Here's Lehman's response:

also I just want to note that this clearly-AI-written paragraph is nonsense. Among other things, the idea that people only OD because they don't know what's in their drugs is belied by the surveys showing that when people get positive fent tests, they still use the drugs! pic.twitter.com/UVqSBrIM22

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

In the highlighted paragraph (which wasn't written by AI), I did not say that people overdose "only" because they don't know what's in their drugs. Overdoses increase when fentanyl in uncontrolled doses replaces more carefully dosed heroin. I stand by that point.

Lehman did not include a citation for his claim on X that "when people get positive fentanyl tests, they still use the drugs!" But he was likely referring to a 2018 study in the International Journal of Drug Policy, "Use of Rapid Fentanyl Test Strips Among Young Adults Who Use Drugs." Lehman linked to that study in a 2023 City Journal article to support his claim that "drug users, when informed that their drugs are adulterated with fentanyl, will often continue to use."

The authors of that study drew a different conclusion. They said their findings showed that "receipt of a positive test result was associated with positive risk reduction behavior change." Of the 31 users who got a positive result after testing their drugs or urine, they reported, "45% used smaller amounts, 42% went slower when using, 39% used with someone else, and 36% did a tester." They added that "few participants threw their drugs out (10%), sold them (10%), or gave them away (7%)." 

It is also possible that Lehman was referring to another multi-state observational study of fentanyl test strips published last year in the same journal. That study also found that few users discarded drugs after a positive result, but it reported "a four-fold reduction in the amount of drugs used following a positive fentanyl test strip result." It also found that a positive result was associated with "participants taking turns" and "having naloxone nearby." 

Both of these studies are evidence of harm reduction working at the margin, which is all it ever claimed to do. Furthermore, the fact that a person facing withdrawal will take chances on a dose of unknown potency does not refute the claim that deaths would plummet if a pharmaceutical-quality alternative were widely available, or the conclusion that overdoses are mostly a product of the drug war.

The Cost of the Drug War

I wrote that Lehman "ignored the other side of the ledger." I noted that Washington's drug possession arrests fell by 91 percent, avoiding around 20,000 arrests, and that hundreds of thousands of prior convictions became eligible to be vacated after State v. Blake, the 2021 Washington Supreme Court decision that temporarily decriminalized simple drug possession. I added that those criminal justice burdens fell most heavily on black and Native American residents, who were also dying at the highest rates. Here is Lehman's reply:

Yeah man I don't think it was worth an extra 1,000 drug OD deaths to prevent 8,000 possession arrests, especially given that those possession arrests basically never resulted in prison time. pic.twitter.com/d00v986MNT

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

Where did Lehman get these figures? He seems to be comparing the study's estimate of additional overdose deaths during the entire post-decriminalization period of 43 and 28 months in two states against roughly a year's worth of avoided arrests in one state. My claim, in any case, was that Lehman ignored one side of the ledger. I didn't offer my opinion on which side was heavier. Readers can weigh deaths against arrests themselves, but they need both numbers stated on the same basis.

Roughly 260,000 felony drug possession convictions became eligible to be vacated, along with refunds of the fines and fees paid. All that was thrown out by the court decision that forced decriminalization. Tack on what a felony drug record does to employment, housing, personal relationships, and child custody. Arrests can ruin lives. 

Lehman's point is also logically inconsistent. If possession arrests were inconsequential to users, as he suggests, how could the removal of that threat have caused 1,000 deaths? A toothless sanction does not change behavior very much.

Was There a Surge in Crime?

I wrote that Lehman folded in a "surge in crime," even though the mortality study says nothing about crime. I added that "the arrest study he implicitly relies on found no statistically significant increase in violent or property offenses attributable to Measure 110." He replied:

This is literally false? He didn't even bother to follow the links to the study (https://t.co/urWRKLdWOP) I was pointing to? What the fuck? pic.twitter.com/K3lXxSEjLM

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

I did follow his link, which went to a Wall Street Journal op-ed Lehman wrote on the topic. That piece discusses the paper linked in Lehman's X post: a 2025 working paper titled "The Unintended Consequences of State-Level Drug Decriminalization Laws: Implications for Arrest and Crime Rates." When I wrote that the study "he implicitly relies on found no statistically significant increase in violent or property offenses attributable to Measure 110" (the Oregon ballot initiative), I had mistakenly looked at a different paper linked in the same op-ed. Reason has added a correction to my original article.

Lehman's Wall Street Journal op-ed nevertheless overstates the 2025 paper's findings, calling them "startling." I read the study and contacted its authors to get the full story. Like the mortality paper, this study has not yet been reviewed, which is why it should be discussed with provisional language. It finds statistically significant increases in serious violent and property crime in Oregon and Washington relative to other states, concentrated in Portland. 

In the Journal, Lehman wrote, "A new study finds that Oregon's and Washington state's experiments with decriminalizing drug possession caused a surge in serious violent and property crime, especially in Portland and Seattle." In fact, the Seattle results are mixed, with robbery and drug offenses up but burglary and murder down relative to other large Washington cities.

The study window runs from 2019 through 2022, so it includes one year before COVID-19, the George Floyd protests, and a policing collapse that hit Portland and Seattle harder and longer than almost anywhere in the country. Decriminalization in Oregon and Washington both started in early 2021, which is also the year the FBI changed its crime reporting methods, causing well-documented gaps in agency coverage.

The paper's authors are appropriately careful about all of this: They describe factors that "may have" contributed to crime trends and do not claim to isolate one. Meanwhile, a federally funded study covering 2008 through 2024 attributes the crime increases in Oregon to trends predating decriminalization, and an analysis of Portland and Eugene 911 calls found no change relative to comparison cities.

I sent my own characterization of the 2025 study Lehman highlighted to its authors. University of South Carolina criminologist Hunter Boehme, a co-author of the paper, replied for the group, confirming that I had accurately represented their within-city findings and thanking me for noting the care with which the preprint states them. 

Lehman took one working paper with nuanced findings from a contested literature, cherry-picked carefully hedged findings, and presented it as settled fact.

A Conclusive Result?

I wrote that the mortality study's result "hinges on rejecting one modeling choice" from a prior paper on the same topic by political scientist Michael Zoorob and colleagues. Lehman replied:

Just to spell it out: this is completely false. Not only do the authors of the new paper look at a variety of alternative specifications; they also retest the referred to "modeling choice" with more data, showing that even under that assumption, the fent effect goes away. pic.twitter.com/W2HCNMB9mP

— Charles Fain Lehman (@CharlesFLehman) July 15, 2026

I went over this issue at length with two of the study's co-authors, Hansen and Hall, and I stand by my characterization of the study as hinging on "rejecting one modeling choice."

The authors reject Zoorob's fentanyl control. That control is the share of police drug seizures containing fentanyl. Decriminalization cut non-fentanyl seizures, shrinking the denominator. Since fentanyl was policed as the greater menace, fentanyl seizures likely shrank less. If Hansen and Hall are correct, Zoorob's control exaggerated the increase in fentanyl.

The authors built two alternatives: fentanyl reports per capita, which is a measure Zoorob's own team used in earlier work, and fentanyl's share of opioid reports, which puts fentanyl in both the numerator and denominator. Under those measures, they report, the estimated effect of decriminalization is positive and significant in most specifications.

Hansen and Hall say the prior debate about overdose trends and decriminalization's effect on overdose deaths was premature. The earlier dueling studies ran through 2021 or 2022. If you extend them through 2023 using each study's own methods, Hansen and Hall say, they all now point in the same direction: unusually large overdose increases in Oregon and Washington. Their timing tests also cut against the simplest rival story: that fentanyl merely reached the Pacific Northwest late and explains everything by itself.

The authors also question whether it is appropriate to control for fentanyl at all. Hansen offered an analogy from labor economics: You can explain most of the gender wage gap by controlling for occupation, but that would absorb the effect it was meant to isolate if the factor you are studying influences occupational choice. Similarly, if decriminalization aided the spread of fentanyl, controlling for fentanyl blames the drug for a policy error. 

Overdose deaths in Oregon and Washington broke away from their statistical twins after decriminalization. Why they broke away is a hard question, and Hansen does not pretend otherwise.

Hansen offered his own list of rival explanations, including hospital staffing, homelessness policy, and hidden shifts in drug smuggling networks, adding that such things are "incredibly challenging to get good data on." The size of the estimate also depends on modeling choices. Even with the extra year of data used in the new study, the choice of fentanyl measurement changes the drug's estimated effect by a factor of seven, and the four-figure death increase cited by Lehman requires assuming no fentanyl effect at all.

Hansen et al.'s NBER paper has advanced the debate, but it has not laid the issue to rest. The study's authors don't say that it has. Lehman is the one making that claim.

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NEXT: Will This Mississippi Man on Death Row Get a Chance To Prove His Innocence?

Aaron Brown teaches statistics at New York University and at the University of California at San Diego, and he writes regular columns for Bloomberg and Wilmott.

Drug LegalizationDrug PolicyWashington StateOregonHarm Reduction
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  1. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

    Seems much more likely that you are lying, minimizing and deflecting because you really really want a fantasy to be true. But sure, ignore your lying eyes and demand that reality conform to your ideology.

    1. But SkyNet is a Private Company   2 months ago

      Wishcasting. Much of dogmatic Libertarianism is.

      Here’s some common sense - decriminalizing deadly drugs increases deaths. Decriminalizing less dangerous drugs does not.

      Pot, MDMA, cocaine, magic mushrooms, even LSD - not deadly

      Opioids, Krokodil, meth - deadly.

  2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

    Like with murders, reason ignores the actual statistic needed for measure, overdoses. Now that EMTs and Police carry Narcan, deaths have gone down. Overdoses and use of Narcan have gone up.

    Is reason ibtentionally misunderstanding issues? This is like using shooting deaths despite number of shootings increasing, because medical care has gotten better.

    1. See.More   2 months ago

      [...]reason ignores the actual statistic needed for measure, overdoses. Now that EMTs and Police carry Narcan, deaths have gone down. Overdoses and use of Narcan have gone up[...]

      There was a study some time ago about driving habits after seatbelt mandates... then air bags... then crumple zones (I may have the order wrong) that showed that, as driving a certain way became less risky because of new safety features, driver's took greater risks. Something similar was studied for American football (not soccer) injuries as football "armor" got better.

      It's like Reason doesn't understand, or is completely ignorant, that more people tend to take more risks when risk mitigations are in place.

      Something similar happens for wartime casualty statistics. In modern warfare soldiers die in orders of magnitude less than in previous wars in part because of advances in field medic/first aid and medical practices. What aren't reflected in those statics are the numbers of service men and women that are permanently disabled. Better than dead, but now, in varying degrees, unproductive.

    2. damikesc   2 months ago

      Reason is a fucking joke on almost every topic. As you have said many times, they are not libertarians. They are pure libertines. Screw the lot of them.

  3. Rick James   2 months ago

    Did Decriminalizing Drugs Lead to More Deaths in Washington and Oregon?

    Harm reduction policies rolled out in the 90s led to the rocket ride upward. So the uptrend was already on the up. But decriminalization added gas to the raging inferno.

    1. Rick James   2 months ago

      Me in 1990s to everyone who would listen: This harm reduction thing is going to be a disaster. We really should be looking at other...

      Mike Riggs; Shut up, Republicans Bigot! The scientism is settled, harm reduction policies work...

      *20+ years later*

      Drug overdose death rates in the United States increased approximately 140% from 2000 through 2023, rising from 6.1 to 31.3 deaths per 100,000 people.

      Late stage me: Have you read the statistics, this shit isn't working!

      Mike Riggs: Shut up, MAGA-Tard! We need to go harder to save lives! Real decriminalization has never been tried!

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Real harm reduction has never been tried. Also, make sure to ignore secondary harm to citizens in regards to property theft and assaults.

      2. See.More   2 months ago

        Real decriminalization has never been tried!

        Decriminalization (not prosecuting for using or processing small amounts of illegal drugs) is a half-assed solution that is bound to fail no matter how "hard" it is tried. As long as the substances remain illegal they will remain black-market products with all the risks thereof.

        It's almost as if decriminalization is tried, knowing it is doomed to failure, in order to prove that legalization will fail. It's growing a poisoned apple to demonstrate that oranges are poisoned too.

        1. DesigNate   2 months ago

          So much fucking this^

        2. KiwiDude   2 months ago

          I agree fully

  4. Rick James   2 months ago

    Oh just so you know, as someone who lives in #Decriminalize/harm reduction ground zero, it wasn't a bunch of Reagan Republican Church ladies that came in and slapped the porn magazines out of everyone's hands, told the women to cover up and reversed "decriminalization" in Seattle, it was the very people who implemented it who reversed it... because as retarded as they are, they could read the fucking room. It wasn't The Moral Majority reversing it in Oregon, it was the very people who implemented it. It wasn't a bunch of right-wing MAGA-hat wearing Proud Boys in Bellingham who reversed it, it was the very people who implemented it.

    1. Rick James   2 months ago

      Edwin Williams, a city council member in Bellingham, Washington, said overdoses became so commonplace in his city that one dead body was left on a bench for 12 hours.

      "A man was sitting on the curb in a parking lot with his head bowed, right out in the open … and a police officer told me that he had been dead for at least 12 hours," Williams told the New York Post in a report on Bellingham published Sunday. "It shocked me to my core."

      The Bellingham City Council voted in April to make open drug use an arrestable crime – a decision that came two years after the Washington legislature decriminalized hard drugs in response to a decision at the state's Supreme Court.

  5. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

    This is the kind of debate that should take place about social science. Having said that, nowhere in this piece or the article it is critiquing could I find a justification for major government intervention policies to prevent people from killing themselves with drug overdoses. I reject the excuse of collateral social damage to families of the drug addicts or to society in general from drug abuse. The social costs to me from drug abuse come almost exclusively from government spending programs claiming to "help" drug addicts. And the social costs to me from crime by drug addicts and drug dealers come almost exclusively from criminalization of drugs, drug selling and drug possession. The harm to families from drug abuse is no different from the harm done to families from any other preventable medical disease, and I do not want the government to intervene in those at my expense either! If government ended the war on drugs tomorrow and there were a spike in deaths from drug overdoses it would be fine with me. And deaths from criminal drug dealer turf wars, and crimes due to drug addicts trying to get cash to pay for their drugs would plummet.

    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      I reject the excuse of collateral social damage to families of the drug addicts or to society in general from drug abuse.

      And the actual direct damage on populations from theft and assaults and property damage??

      Lots of excuses making to ignore actual violations of the NAP in your bid to toe the line on drug acceptance.

      Im also glad youll now refrain from bleeding heart claims to support open borders.

      1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

        While I realize that you don't need to read what I actually wrote to know what I think, if you HAD read the entire paragraph you would have known that I addressed your snide remark and that this has nothing whatever to do with the social problems associated with the war on immigration.

      2. Quicktown Brix   2 months ago

        There are few if any drugs that cause people to commit more crime (independent of its legal status) than alcohol. Is alcohol prohibition justifiable under your version of the NAP that is riddled with exceptions?

        1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

          It doesn't matter. He's a big fan of the war on drugs so anyone who's against it must be an idiot or an anti-American agent trying to undermine the Kingdom of Christ.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            I am? For being honest about the actual costs unlike you two?

            What are my views doc? Because im very consistent.

            I want elevated sentencing for crimes related to drugs due to drug addiction being persistent.

            But feel free to lie about my views if it makes your retarded ass feel better. I've only said this in dozens of stories regarding drugs.

            Amazing how none of you low thought retards can argue from honest principles.

            1. See.More   2 months ago

              I want elevated sentencing for crimes related to drugs due to drug addiction being persistent.

              That is the exact same kind of bullshit leftists want for saying mean things (Hate Crime enhancements).

              It only make sense from a perspective of wanting to get revenge. It make zero sense from a perspective of justice.

              1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                Incorrect. Unless you misconstrue action with thought.

                If you cant tell the difference between the actions taken in addiction compare to thought/motivations as enhancers, i cant fucking help.

                One is literally measurable. The other is ephemeral.

                1. DesigNate   2 months ago

                  I’m not a fan of modifiers. The person is no less harmed or dead just because the perpetrator was high or drunk.

                  1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                    The issue with addiction driven crime is the persistence of the crime. Steal from a neighbor, buy the hit, steal from another neighbor, buy the hit.

                    The persistence of the crime to satiate the addiction is the issue i have.

                    If you can do drugs and not commit crimes, have at it.

                    If you repeatedly commit crimes to fuel an addiction, stay in fucking jail.

                    1. DesigNate   2 months ago

                      “The persistence of the crime to satiate the addiction is the issue i have.”

                      I see where you’re coming from.

                      “If you repeatedly commit crimes to fuel an addiction, stay in fucking jail.”

                      I agree with you fully there.

              2. damikesc   2 months ago

                If you kill somebody driving drunk, you being drunk should not reduce the charges or punishment at all. Should increase them appreciably.

                Unless you can demonstrate you consumed alcohol against your will, you made a choice and you should suffer the consequences.

                1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                  I have the same views on alcohol. A DUI shouldn't exist as a predicate. But crash into someone while drunk, enhance the charges. Driving drunk and crashing into someone isnt the same as accidentally hitting someone. It was a choice made.

            2. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

              I reject your assertion that I am ignoring the "actual costs" of drug addiction. I specifically attributed almost all of those costs to your failed war on drugs, as opposed to the drug abuse itself. I also specifically reject your notion that I should foot the bill for your failed war on drugs instead of letting the cost of the drug abuse itself fall on those actually affected by it.

              1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                You can do any retarded thing you want to do. But drugs being criminalized doesnt drive the subsequent actions of or for drugs retard.

                Male them legal youll still have addicts committing crimes dumbfuck.

                What a child like set of arguments you have.

        2. But SkyNet is a Private Company   2 months ago

          Bullshit. What a moronic take. Not on a per-capita, per usage basis.

          If meth were as prevalent and used as often as alcohol, what do you think that would do to crime?

          1. Quicktown Brix   2 months ago

            If meth were as prevalent and used as often as alcohol, what do you think that would do to crime?

            If it was legal? Not much.

            1. DesigNate   2 months ago

              Obviously with stuff like weed and shrooms, but I’m not sure about that in regards to things like meth or opioids.

              1. Quicktown Brix   2 months ago

                It's my contention that the type of people that do those drugs start from a lower behavioral baseline (willing to commit felonies and associate with criminals) and are tempted further by high drug costs and their criminal associmethods.

                I think if you or I started using meth, we'd not turn to other crimes, but for that same reason, neither of us will start using meth.

        3. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

          Okay 3 errors at least in this ,and all basic LOGIC errors

          1) IF most people who drink don't commit crimes -- and they don't--- we run into our Logic 101 buddy : What proves opposites proves nothing. IT can't be the drink !!!

          2) IF it isn't the fault of druggies in your opinion that they do horrible things why would it be the fault of drunks that they do horrible things.

          3)And then the error made almost universally on REASON --- how can your opinion be logical if most people who do drugs also drink or have been drinkers
          According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) report on substance use: . Of those individuals, about 1 in 6 (7.7 million people) struggled with both alcohol and illicit drug use disorders at the same time.

          UTTERLY DESTROYED.

      3. Eeyore   2 months ago

        If cops would enforce property crimes.

        Had some stuff stolen. Had the perp doing it on video. He was a known perp with a known address. Cops had the attitude of so what? Had everything thing they needed - wouldn't do shit.

        1. Eeyore   2 months ago

          In a completely unrelated theft of my bike the cops called me a year later to let me know the perp was dead. That was nice to hear, but also useless.

          1. Quicktown Brix   2 months ago

            LOL. I feel you on that one.

      4. See.More   2 months ago

        And the actual direct damage on populations from theft and assaults and property damage??

        Almost entirely a result of criminalization. Legalize drugs and most of that will evaporate. The rest can be handled by enforcing the laws against assault, property damage, and theft that already exist.

        Your question is in the same vein as gun grabbers that want to ban firearms because of the direct damage caused by gun violence that is already criminalized.

        1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

          Lol. My god. Ive never heard of a dumber assertion that it is caused by criminalization and not from the addiction itself.

          Addicts will seek out any way to continue their addictions whether drugs are legal or not. Their criminal actions of theft is to pay, drugs aren't free even in legal situations.

          Assaults have nothing to do with a drug addled homeless person tripping out become violent.

          The stupid lies people tell themselves about drugs is wild.

          1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

            Keep floundering - it makes you look more and more futile. We are crushed by your assertion of stupid lies. I am particularly hurt - I may have to whimper off into my safe space for a while to recover.

          2. DesigNate   2 months ago

            All of those scenarios were equally applicable to alcohol, and used to justify Prohibition. And we saw how well that went.

          3. chemjeff radical individualist   2 months ago

            It's important to understand the precise type of argument that people like Jesse here are making.

            Jesse is essentially arguing from a position of moral identity. You see, addicts are simply bad people. It doesn't matter if the drugs are legal or not. The bad bad addicts will just use drugs regardless. So keep them illegal, it makes it easier to catch the bad bad addicts.

            1. minus the clever name   2 months ago

              " I favor more police on the street to make punishment more quick, clear, and consistent. " This is the Broken WIndows Theory. It works for parents, college teachers, and people dealing with tyrants. Take the starting infringements and come down on them with force. Don't wait till some coke head kills 3 people and when arrested says' "Where am I?"

        2. minus the clever name   2 months ago

          Legalize drugs and it will be like legalizing gay marriage.It brings in a train of horrible perversions that it alone made possible

          Same-Sex Couple Sues Surrogate for Refusing to Abort Baby With Possible Minor Birth Defect

          Same-sex UK couple guilty of sexually abusing, killing adopted baby
          Jun 16, 2026

          Some horrible crimes only become possible because of legalization and you can't see this, so I post so that others can see what is wrong with you

        3. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

          Your own argument (Very BIden-ish) destroys you

          Even if you take away the gun from the guy that was going to kill randomly at the local school, you still have a guy that would kill randomly at a school

          Either you do something about that person or forget the legalization-- and this applies more even to drugs than to guns

          and ex-druggies tend to OPPOSE legalization saying it dooms many people to a hellish life

    2. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

      I'm 100% with you. But that's cause i'm a libertarian that believes in individual liberty and responsibility as my guiding principles.

      As libertarians we shouldn't be arguing about which government policies lead to the most saved lives or fewest deaths, because that gives up the entire liberty game. We could reduce deaths by locking everyone into rubber rooms for the rest of their lives, and that would be a dystopian nightmare scenario that very effectively accomplishes the stupid goal here.

      If you give everyone the freedom and personal responsibility to use drugs, some people are going to kill themselves. this is the cost of liberty. This shit makes 100% sense to Republicans if you use the word GUNS instead. but for some reason they don't get liberty when it comes to substances.

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Lol. Talks about responsibility yet is against any type of effect to hold people responsible. Amazing shit really.

        1. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

          Can you find evidence of me ever saying people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions?

          I'm the one who keeps agreeing with you that drug users who commit violence or theft should be in prison. Every time i agree with you on this topic, you leave the thread permanently cause it exposes that you just start lying about other's opinions when you are losing a principled argument.

          are you an hallucinogens all day or something?

          here's me agreeing with you that criminal drug offenders should be in prison. over and over and over again.

          https://reason.com/2026/07/20/working-class-hero/?comments=true#comment-11531493
          https://reason.com/2026/07/19/calling-cartels-narcoterrorists-turns-drug-enforcement-into-war-making/?comments=true#comment-11530336
          https://reason.com/2026/07/19/calling-cartels-narcoterrorists-turns-drug-enforcement-into-war-making/?comments=true#comment-11530325

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            An example from just today. Iram and their attacks against the US and ME neighbors. Next question?

      2. minus the clever name   2 months ago

        But you are a moron for thinking this crap of yours = THE COMMON GOOD.

      3. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

        Really stupid and callous. What about friends, family, neighbors, co-workers....the living dead after some promising person mis-uses that freedom you are always yapping like a horse's assss about.

      4. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

        No, I doubt what you claim. You aren't for lliberty and responsibility because you are libertarian. The opposite unless you addle-pated.

        And you misread the guns thing terribly. There is a fine use of weapons by any 20-year old but not a fine use of cocaine or heroin for a 20 year old You are not for freedom except in the sense that it allows you to say 'I don't care about the suffering of other people": That husband who is free to kill himself with a drug overdose leaves family, friends, neighbors , co-workers and the societal cost is enormous.

    3. Moderation4ever   2 months ago

      I would disagree with your assertion that the biggest cost is on trying to help addicts. I think the government overspends on the supply side attempting to stop the creation, transport and selling of prohibited drugs. I think that government could spend far less if focused on the demand side. Accept recreational drug use but demand accountability much as is done with alcohol. Provide treatment to the addicted but with a goal of making them functional and accountable rather than drug free.

      1. minus the clever name   2 months ago

        Instant creation of a small army of lawyers : What is RECREATIONAL drug use?

        1. Moderation4ever   2 months ago

          Recreational drug use is afterwork when you and your friend stop in a bar for a drink or two. Basically it is the use of drugs for pleasure derived from the way it makes you feel rather than for a specific medical purpose. Americans in particular seem to feel that taking something for pleasure is wrong. Maybe it that Puritan ethic, but I think it should end. I get pleasure from a long bike ride, another might get pleasure from a good round of golf, and I have no problem with the person getting their pleasure by watching the football games with a few beers or an edible.

          1. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

            Well I never....here we are re-arguing the Philebus !!!

            The Philebus is a late-period Socratic dialogue by Plato featuring Socrates, Protarchus, and Philebus. It investigates whether the ultimate good life consists of pleasure, wisdom/intelligence, or a mixture of both

            guess what? Recreational drug use that harms permanently the mind IS AN UNQUALIFIED EVIL

      2. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

        How about on the moral and educational side which is prior to both supply and demand

        CATHOLIC CATECHISM
        2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

  6. Chocolatejeebus   2 months ago

    Charles Fain Lehman needs to be shot in the head. Like every other cunt that thinks he should control other people's bodies and lives.

    1. minus the clever name   2 months ago

      It's a good thing that shooting someone in the head is not controlling them, huh. What a smart guy, should make many converts to your rational and calmly stated (asssshole) position

  7. JonFrum   2 months ago

    States: "Feel free to poison yourself - we won't stop you. And we invite people from other states to come here and poison themselves as well."

    Smart guy: "Why would you possibly think that telling people to poison themselves - and giving them the poison - would increase deaths?"

  8. minus the clever name   2 months ago

    City Journal vs you....hmmmmm

    Morbidity-related productivity losses in the U.S. total over $92 billion annually. The inability to maintain employment or participate in the workforce accounts for roughly $45.25 billion of this loss

    BUT REALLY, TRILLIONS
    Illicit drug and substance use costs the United States hundreds of billions of dollars each year, driven primarily by lost productivity, healthcare expenses, and criminal justice impacts. Broader societal toll assessments—including specific epidemics like synthetic opioids—range into the trillions when factoring in premature mortality and diminished quality of life.

    1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

      Jeez, Louise! Are you going to declare a "War on Fat" due to the trillions of dollars in lost productivity from stuffing too much food in your face? SWAT teams breaking down doors and shooting the fatties inside without a warrant? Prison for selling food to a fat person. Jesus Christ riding a Blue Bicycle! Do you idiots ever LISTEN to the nonsense you spout? Your productivity is none of my business as long as I don't have to feed you when you become unemployed. I have no claim on your production and I reject your claim on mine!

  9. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

    The real problem here is the dishonesty of the argument. Yes, decriminalization increased deaths. You can talk about the reasons and the costs but to try and say otherwise or even minimize is dishonest.

    1. DesigNate   2 months ago

      It’s like the crime article.

    2. Moderation4ever   2 months ago

      I don't think there is any dishonesty. If you read the article it points out that the rise in death can not be directly correlated to the decriminalization. This was not a controlled experiment people have to look at what happen in a multivariant real world.

      1. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

        But nobody says there is no connection. Even the evil of firing a gun into a house might kill a known pervert and in that sense be good.
        But we are talking about also the GREATER GOODS destroyed by drugs freely available. If I run into a burning house and save a dog while leaving the baby there I HAVE DONE GREAT EVIL. NO moral consideration should be given to drugs extracted from their context of what it costs society ,what it does to friends and family of the users, the waste of the works and jobs of such people.

  10. minus the clever name   2 months ago

    Pity the student of Aaron Brown if he makes these kinds of mistakes.
    Where are externalities and opportunity costs

    And what about Gary Becker's BIGGEST MISTAKE
    https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/09/what-was-gary-beckers-biggest-mistake.html

  11. minus the clever name   2 months ago

    I think that often younger males take the Libertarian tag so they can be presumed hip to Hayek and Economics and 'rights' when they most certainly are not. Drug de-criminilization is a raging failure when you take the social costs (the opportunity costs, the destroyed relationships, the externalities) into account.

    I say it all the time : One thing I've noticed so often in life I must admit I am no longer open to doubting it, is that there is a great swath of folks who won''t do pornography or drugs or group rioting or perverity like trans or homosexual acts UNLESS it is open and right there in front of them.

    Decriminalizing drugs sets a trap that destroys people.

    1. Restoring the Dream   2 months ago

      You do see that this is exactly the left's argument for gun bans.

      1. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

        No, it is the OPPOSITE.
        You are talking like the crazy man Biden

        Sane moral people with guns is fine. And the insane and immoral --- well we need to do something with them. Take the gun away and you have a small army of psychos still.
        But someone without cocaine is , what?

  12. minus the clever name   2 months ago

    Statistical Significance is losing ground more and more . About 11 years ago William Briggs destroyed this particular use of Statistical Significance. After hearing him I have never forgotten it

    This video is gripping
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbf_TXqEY-Y

    Transcript – Briggs, 2015 – The Crisis Of Evidence, Or, Why Probability & Statistics Cannot Discover Cause – YouTube

    https://brokenscience.org/the-crisis-of-evidence-or-why-probability-statistics-cannot-discover-cause/

    He is now part of the very successful BROKEN SCIENCE movement.

  13. minus the clever name   2 months ago

    I tell my Philosophy students , you've got people like you by the assss if you can get them to totally desert the topic and start on people who overeat.

    You say 2 right things and don't realize and 2 wrong thngs and don't realize it

    Right: Yes,the same lack of discipline shows up in some fat people that also shows up in addicts : Wm James ....: "Do something every day or two for no other reason than that you would rather not do it, so that when the hour of dire need draws nigh, it may find you not unnerved and untrained to stand the test."

    Right
    It is society that decides whether your lack of discipline needs attention not YOU. This is the basis for most of what is told to little kids in grammar school. Don't pull Susie's hair...and you will find that a trans that kills you for saying the wrong pronoun got his selfish stupid way for years before that.

    Wrong..The only way to deal with the undeniable bad side of drugs is to have the same rules for every drug user. How many crossed our borders and we don't know about them.

    WRONG,this is a big wrong. you are attacking me for being moral/religious/ethical but you don't realize that is exactly what you are doing. X is Good / X is Evil BOTH are moral judgments.

  14. TJJ2000   2 months ago

    Maybe. Just Maybe. It's not the government "'Guns' against you" job to save people from themselves. In fact the very tool and premise of Liberty is a complete contradiction.

    And Maybe. Just Maybe. It's true that those bombed out of their scull are more likely to cause harm to others and be leeches of STOLEN tax-payer $ (As-if no-one noticed the druggie leech). And that 'Justice for all' is where the scope of government should be.

    So be a stupid druggie. The government shouldn't care if you chose to throw your life away. That is your choice. Yet it certainly isn't the governments job to shovel YOUR life's choices COSTS onto others either.

    1. minus the clever name   2 months ago

      Doesn't compute. The families, the children ruined when some selfish fool starts on the drug trail--- what about them.

      The analogy here is practicing homosexuals..You are a promiscuous gay and you get AIDS

      The average lifetime medical cost of treating HIV/AIDS ranges from about $420,000 to over $1.2 million in the United States, depending on the age of diagnosis, medication types, and overall health.

      Sick babies, mothers in need, older abandoned people suffer as a result.

      1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

        Oh those 'poor' peoples mistakes.
        If only they could ROB the peoples BANK all would be well again.
        And ROB the BANK again all would be well again.
        And ROB the BANK again all would be well again.

        Get it through your dense F'Up skulls... 'Gun' THEFT doesn't make sh*T.
        The bi-product of THEFT is NOTHING.

      2. TJJ2000   2 months ago

        Or maybe something super simple...
        - Only an idiot thinks the 'Gun' is a tool of health.
        - And only an idiot thinks Government exists w/o the legal 'Gun' tool.

  15. IceTrey   2 months ago

    Who cares?

    1. minus... back to school soon , BYE   2 months ago

      More to the point, what sick bastards boast about not caring ?? OUCH

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