The Poverty Line Isn't a Vibe
A more robust welfare state won't change the fact that tradeoffs exist, even for relatively wealthy Americans who choose to have kids.
Wall Street strategist Michael Green caused a stir on social media last week with his outlandish claim that the federal poverty line should be raised to cover individuals earning as much as $140,000 annually.
That claim, which Green made on his Substack and subsequently in The Free Press, has been widely debunked by the likes of Scott Winship, Jeremy Horpedahl, Noah Smith, and Tyler Cowen (whose article pointing out Green's errors was published, somewhat hilariously, in The Free Press too).
And yet, somehow, Green returned.
In a follow-up post on Substack, Green argued that "the point" of the original article "was not the accuracy of the actual $140K claim." He goes on to concede that his many critics were right that both his math and his geography were flawed—the original article was premised on the cost of living in Essex County, New Jersey, which lies in one of the most expensive metropolitan areas in the country.
So, then, what is the point? Green argues, essentially, that many middle-class families simply feel more economically stretched today than they did in the past, so much so that traditional measures used to define poverty are meaningless today.
But the federal poverty line is not a vibe. Even relatively wealthy people can feel economically stretched without being in such dire need that it requires federal intervention—which is what Green is ultimately arguing for with all of this. He's retreated from the mott to the bailey by abandoning the $140,000 figure, but there are still some major problems with this argument.
First, he repeats an error from the original piece, which asserted that the poverty line functions as a gateway to the middle class. That's never been true. Yet, throughout the follow-up post, Green continues to equate the two things.
Like in fictional towns where all the children are above average, this simply doesn't make sense. Not every family will be able to afford the median apartment; that's what makes it the median apartment. And while it is certainly true that even relatively wealthy people can feel financially stretched at times, that's hardly the same thing as being in poverty.
For example, as Smith pointed out in his debunking of Green's original post, about 14 percent of American children have living situations with more than one person per room, which is considered "overcrowded." That's what living in poverty looks like. But Green is determined to redefine poverty to mean something like "middle-class families should never have to face challenging tradeoffs."
Unfortunately, tradeoffs are part of life.
The best example of this error comes late in Green's follow-up post, and it is quite revealing. He writes that many middle-class Americans feel stretched because a lot of their wealth is tied up in their mortgages. There's a nugget of truth to this, since you can't realistically use your home's equity to pay bills.
But from there, Green makes a crazy leap. "But if the home you live in goes from $200,000 to $1,000,000, you are not wealthy, because the replacement home also costs $1M," he writes. "You are trapped. You cannot sell the house and take the profit, because you still need a place to sleep, and the house across the street also costs $1,000,000."
That is nonsense. If you own a $1 million home, you can absolutely sell the house and buy another house for $500,000 or $800,000. Yes, that might be a smaller house, but tradeoffs exist. Perhaps you could even buy a cheaper, nicer house in a lower-cost-of-living area. Green even acknowledges that one of the ways to realize the wealth in a home is to "downsize" by moving "to a cheaper region, sacrificing income/opportunity/quality of life."
So he does know tradeoffs exist! He just believes the federal government (that is, taxpayers) ought to eliminate them for people earning six figures.
The decisions and tradeoffs about where to live will reflect different preferences for different people, but this is absolutely not evidence that people living in million-dollar homes are in "poverty." Never mind the fact that it's also quite silly. Really, I encourage Green to visit any town outside of the top 10 wealthiest metropolitan areas in the country, walk into the first bar he finds, and tell the patrons inside that a million-dollar home is a "trap" and that the owners of those houses are "not wealthy." The bar's patrons will have a good laugh.
A big part of the problem with Green's analysis is that he leans heavily on the Cost of Thriving Index, published by American Compass executive director Oren Cass. That index purports to show that it takes more than 62 weeks for the median male worker to earn enough to pay for everything a modern American household requires. There are, of course, only 52 weeks in the year, so Cass and Green say this proves the existence of a problem.
But Cass' index is deeply flawed—Green even acknowledges one excellent debunking by Winship. Cass' analysis does not take into account taxes and various family-oriented subsidies delivered via the tax code. We don't need to raise the poverty line to provide welfare to the middle class, it turns out, because the middle class is already getting a lot of welfare. Excluding that obviously makes the beneficiaries of those programs appear worse off than they really are.
With those included, the so-called "cost of thriving" for families with a single male breadwinner has actually fallen since 1985, according to Winship's analysis of Cass' figures.
Cass' study also ignores the crucial role that women now play in the workforce. Including them in the overall assessment means that the cost of thriving has fallen by about 7 weeks since 1985, in part because women have seen bigger gains in earnings during recent decades. It is quite foolish to focus exclusively on male workers' earnings in the year 2025.
A huge part of the economic strain that Green describes revolves around the cost of child care, so let's take a moment to address that. Yes, child care is expensive, and even more so in many places where it is already expensive to live, even without kids. No, this is not a good reason to regard those earning well over six figures as being in poverty, for at least three reasons.
First, all choices come with tradeoffs, and having kids is no exception. Indeed, having children is one of the most momentous choices that two people can make. That it comes with huge tradeoffs is not a surprise and does not require rethinking huge swathes of federal policy. If new parents feel poor, it's probably because they are significantly less well-off financially than they were before—but the payoff from having kids, as so many parents have assured me, is not to be measured in dollars and cents anyway.
Second, Green extrapolates the most costly years of child care (the first few) and assumes parents will face that burden forever. "Rather than considering families' general cost of living over time, Green's analysis focuses on the most difficult years for expenses," writes Cowen in his debunking of Green's initial post. "No wonder it is so pessimistic."
Finally, there are plenty of things that could (and should) be done to lower the cost of child care, from easing zoning laws to allow more day cares to removing nonsensical licensing laws that, in some cases, require day care workers to have college degrees. Supply-side reforms will make child care more accessible and affordable, and they will create more jobs.
On the other hand, the expansion of the federal safety net that Green is gesturing toward will have the opposite effect. Giving middle-class and upper-middle-class families more money to spend on child care will only create higher demand on a system that's already facing a supply crunch. That will make the problems he is describing worse.
And, as a political matter, promoting this sort of economically illiterate populist nonsense that equates routine tradeoffs with abject poverty will only lead to terrible places. Conservatives used to tell people to take control of their lives and make better choices. Now, populists like Green are promising handouts to objectively wealthy people based on their feelings of being poor.
But further subsidizing the lifestyles of families earning six figures and living in million-dollar homes will not make housing, child care, or any other aspect of a middle-class life more affordable. It will inflate prices, place a larger burden on taxpayers, and make it even more difficult for those actually experiencing poverty to reach the middle class and beyond.
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Well, you are half right.
Yes, it is insane to think of $140k as some objective measure of poverty.
But, while "poverty isn't a vibe", people's perceptions of the economy IS a vibe. Statistics and facts and data literally don't matter anymore in our discourse. Just look at the last election - in 2024 virtually all of the economic indicators were going in the correct direction, but if you asked Republicans, they would say "the economy sucks". Because they FELT it was bad. Because "price of eggs" overrode any economic data about GDP or unemployment rate or even the inflation rate.
That's the world we live in. People have to FEEL LIKE they are getting ahead economically. And a lot of people don't FEEL LIKE they are getting ahead. That is why the vague term "affordability" had such resonance in the elections this year. Because the concept of "affordability" is completely subjective.
What if they feel like there is a bear in the trunk?
Still feeling the need to defend Biden, nearly a year later?
As if Trump and Biden had any differences in economic policy.
Im sorry you're uneducated.
Did you come here to showcase your ignorance? If so, you’ve succeeded.
Haven't seen any TRILLION dollar stimulus's yet.
I'm happy to dunk on the wall street strategist's concepts of poverty.
But I swear that every one of these essays uses some nonstandard, post hoc definition of poverty.
People per room? Define "room." Bedrooms? Bedrooms plus living room and kitchen? Do bathrooms count? The data link didn't have that simple definition. A family of 4 in a 2 bedroom apartment isn't "overcrowding." A family of 6 might be.
But no, it's not reasonable to expect people to realize their real estate investment gains by moving away from work and family into a smaller house. This is the same kind of thinking that leads to a wealth tax.
I was also confused by this 14% living 2 to a room. I shared a bedroom with my brother for 12 years. Not only did I not feel impoverished we had a ton of fun.
I remember having 5 other roommates in a 2 bedroom. Lots of whiny ass bitches. However; if you try and make me go back to those days, I will knife you.
When you are a family of ovivores; like many Republicans are, the price of eggs is a very big deal. An ovivores needs to consume half it's body weight in eggs per day. Very expensive. Didn't you know? I can tell you don't care.
Keeping the borders closed and deporting all your precious illegals will greatly alleviate the housing supply problem. Which you created.
Also, if you committed suicide, an entire African village could eat like kings for what it takes to feed your morbidly obese ass.
It's not about the feels. It's about legitimate trade offs. Those exist at most income levels. If they are simply ignored, then ALL tradeoffs are assumed to be simple preferences and the choices are assumed to be 'better'. Not squeezes but better. Those choices hugely change the weightings of the basket of goods that we use to measure inflation so it matters in the numbers.
Example. It may well be that teens buying ratty used jeans with holes in them is a fashion statement so spending more money in a thrift/consignment stores v a clothing store is truly a preference - a hedonic better. To the degree that those prices are also lower, then those lower prices - with a higher weighting in a consumer basket is an indicator of how well we are doing nowadays compared to the days when our only choice was to rip our own newly purchased jeans.
But how about the other side where the change is a squeeze not an improvement. Where the price of steak goes up - so you switch to hamburger - and that goes up so the switch is to chicken - and that goes up so the switch is to a bag of kibble. The increased weightings in that consumer basket are the sign of being squeezed not a sign that things are getting better. Even worse if the price increases are such that people at lower income have to increasingly buy those items using debt. Where they are not only getting squeezed by the price of that food but by increased spending on debt/interest which isn't even captured in that basket of spending or where the household has to find additional income/jobs just to tread water.
We completely ignore those changes in measuring inflation. Not just at the $140,000 level where no changes are a serious squeeze - but at median or lower where those changes are a serious and permanent problem. Where inflation itself has become a totally bogus measure. The reason it is important to understand these tradeoffs - at all the income levels where those changes are CURRENTLY occurring - is because otherwise changes get made to benefit the $140,000 level - which can often make things worse for the low income. That is a big reason we have been blowing up asset bubbles for decades - so the wealthy can fund their consumption with assets (not income) while at the same time those assets are now out of reach for younger/poorer generations.
So this Green fella and Nate Silver should join forces with Ezra Klein and Nobel Economist Paul Krugman and create a think tank.
Oh wait, that already exists, it's called the Democrat Party.
To put some concrete numbers in perspective. A 2 BR apartment near the most remote metro stop (so no car needed) is $2500/month. Landlords require 3x income to qualify, times 12 months/year, is $90,000. That is the bare minimum income needed for a family of 4 to find housing in my area.
"Landlords require 3x income to qualify"
Some may, many do not.
It’s typically going to be at least 2x, if not 2.5x gross income. But that isn’t per person. So odds are that tenants with a combined gross household of $80k/yr, will qualify.
Rents will stabilize and get cheaper in most non democrat areas once we get rid of enough illegals. Which should largely correct the supply/demand distortion created by the Biden Administration.
Sure, muh illegals. But that's not the only distortion. For example, unconditionally funded military folks (BAH) distort the market with off-base housing. Military personnel live very socialistically, they don't have to deliver anything but a body that can execute commands, no thinking of their own, and this is why the most inept are found there.
There are many more so-called "distortions". Instead of scapegoating your most hated group, just give renters rights. What a concept.
The fact that greedy right-wing chodes are conidtioning younger generations to be cool with overpriced rental housing helps to ready the public for social democracy. And it's coming, most people have grown up now and are ready to make things more equal, their decisions are less based on greed. We also have the internet, people see what quality of life is attainable with more stable, highly successful, European models.
You are in trouble.
If you remove millions of people the demand for housing decreases. Period.
Goddamn you’re a retarded Marxist cunt.
Can you convert these numbers to yuan? Thank you.
And there is NO other area. Like all those homeless people who came TO the expensive metro area to complain about the cost of housing.
So you're saying that it is impossible for the poor to live in your particular hell-hole of a city. I suspect that you're wrong on your facts but even assuming you're entirely correct, why is that the appropriate definition of "poor"? Is there some inherent right to live in the most expensive city on the planet? Is there some inherent right to live in any particular city? What makes your outrageously expensive city ethically any different from the exclusive gated community down the block?
Different places are expensive. You choose to live in a place that expensive. That is completely your choice but don't expect the rest of us (who have different priorities and thus choose to live in much less expensive communities) to subsidize your lifestyle.
Waaa! I can only afford to eat one meal a day because I insist on only eating at four-star restaurants and refuse to learn how to cook an egg for myself.
Great point!
My point is that if you work in the city, you have to live near the city. Not having a car is the most economical option, thus you need to live near public transportation.
What else do you expect people to do?
Not having a car is the most economical option, thus you need to live near public transportation.
Not if rent outside the city is low enough to allow you to afford a car.
that is interesting.
How do you calculate this?
The same way you would calculate any budget item. If one is using public transport as their primary transportation they will (or should be) buying a weekly or monthly pass that fits their primary transportation needs. That can be a fixed cost.
Also, in a city, living close to public transportation also comes with a premium price. Your housing will cost more than living outside the city. There will certainly be a point where the housing/transport differences meet. At that point you have housing and a car at the same cost as housing/living closer to the city
They trade-off is then typically time/traffic/level of annoyance to get home.
What Don't Look said.
Or move. No one says you have to live in that city. That's your choice. You can choose differently.
Note - There is a third choice but it's a bit longer play. You could stop voting for politicians who keep implementing the same failed policies that are making housing in your city so unaffordable.
I thought vibes was a Jeff goldbloom cindi lauper movie
"because the middle class is already getting a lot of welfare."
Really? Should I go look for my checks? Explain to me what I'm getting in excess of my taxes right now?
Remember when I lost the 500 dollar dependent deduction when my son left home. I'm still bitter about it.
Middle class people get things like child tax credit, EIC, mortgage interest deduction, Social Security and Medicare, public schools, Pell Grants, ACA subsidized insurance, CHIP, SNAP, housing assistance, utilities assistance, and so on and so forth. Add it up and the effective tax rate on the bottom three quintiles is negative.
https://fee.org/articles/progressive-taxation-makes-everyone-worse-off/
Public schools and the child tax credit are a huge amount of welfare for all families with children, including middle-class families.
I would also add that another bit of welfare for everyone, that disproportionately affects middle-class wage earners, is the entire highway system. Every time a toll-free road is built with public tax dollars, it is an effective subsidy for using cars to get around. If funds like the gasoline tax were to pay entirely for all the road maintenance and construction, then it wouldn't be welfare; but it doesn't.
Oh ffs, now Reason is blocking my goddamned message which contains nothing but text as a 'wordpress' error. Let me see if I can figure out what combination of words and syllables it's confused with.
Begin message:
I looked at your link and my interest became piqued. I thought the fee.org article didn't say much beyond providing some tables, so I clicked on one of the links therein to get some better definitions and I found this:
60 Percent of Households Now Receive More in Transfer Income Than they Pay in Taxes
Therein lies a graph which divides "household incomes" into quintiles. The claim is that 60 percent (ie, 3 of the 5 quintiles) receive more in federal transfer payments than they pay in taxes. According to the data:
However, the total tax federal tax burden for households in the middle quintile was less than half of what they received in transfer income. In other words, these middle-income households received $2.14 in transfers for every dollar they paid in federal taxes.
The "middle" quintile is defined as a household with $48,900 of income. Forty eight nine for the 'middle' quintile.
If we look at this through the lens of real numbers, the minimum wage in Seattle is $21.30 an hour. That's $44,304 a year, assuming 2080 (full time) work. Further, that means that Hector the Dishwasher at the local watering hole is pretty much damn-near center in the middle quintile for households. So if we pivot back to "vibes" if you tell me that Hector, who washes dishes at the local watering hole has a stay-at-home wife and two kids is in this category:
However, the total tax federal tax burden for households in the middle quintile was less than half of what they received in transfer income. In other words, these middle-income households received $2.14 in transfers for every dollar they paid in federal taxes.
You'll get no more than a shrug from me. But if you told me that a guy who worked in HVAC who has a 2 bedroom house in flyover country, has two vehicles in the driveway and an above-ground pool in his backyard gets more in federal transfer payments than he pays in taxes, I'm going to raise an eyebrow.
So I think what we have here is a game of averaging average averages where we talk about vague concepts such as "middle quintile households" and are supposed to be shocked that the 'middle quintile' gets >$2 for every $1 in taxes paid, I don't think we've produced anything that's particularly informative for the purpose of finding out that us regular squares are getting more in federal dollars than we're paying in taxes... because i strongly suspect we're not. Especially when transfer payments were defined thusly:
Government transfers are described on p. 24 of CBO’s report a “cash payments from Social Security, unemployment insurance, Supplemental Security Income, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (and its predecessor, Aid to Families with Dependent Children), veterans’ programs, workers’ compensation, and state and local government assistance programs. They also include the value of in-kind benefits, such as Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program vouchers (formerly known as food stamps), school lunches and breakfasts, housing assistance, energy assistance, and benefits provided by Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. (The value of health insurance is measured on the basis of the Census Bureau’s estimates of the average cost to the government of providing such insurance.)” Total transfers do include some state funds, but this is less than 10 percent of the total.
Shorter: If "middle income" is now defined as head of household earning minimum wage, then no one is shocked that they're receiving lots of federal tax dollars in forms of Supplemental Security Income, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (and its predecessor, Aid to Families with Dependent Children), veterans’ programs, workers’ compensation, and state and local government assistance programs. They also include the value of in-kind benefits, such as Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program vouchers (formerly known as food stamps), school lunches and breakfasts, housing assistance, energy assistance, and benefits provided by Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program.
I looked at your link and my interest became piqued. I thought the fee.org article didn't say much beyond providing some tables, so I clicked on one of the links therein to get some better definitions and I found this:
Ignore this... wordpress errors can kiss my middle class ass.
Ever notice? Some people just like to whine.
paraphrased, "'Guns' against those 'icky' productive people will solve everyone's problems!", Michael Green.
...because didn't you know. Only a 'Gun' (Gov-Guns) can make sh*t for you. /s