The Constitution Does Not Allow the President To Unilaterally Blow Suspected Drug Smugglers to Smithereens
If the Trump administration wants to use military power, it should seek authorization from Congress, says Sen. Rand Paul.
Somewhere off the coast of Venezuela, a speedboat with 11 people on board is blown to smithereens. Vice President J.D. Vance announces that "killing cartel members who poison our fellow citizens is the highest and best use of our military."
When challenged that killing citizens without due process is a war crime, the vice president responded that he "didn't give a shit."
Sometimes in fits of anger, loud voices will say they don't care about niceties such as due process—they just want to kill bad guys. For a brief moment, all of us may share that anger and may even embrace revenge or retribution.
But over 20,000 people are murdered in the U.S. each year, and yet somehow we find a way to a dispassionate dispensation of justice that includes legal representation for the accused and jury trial.
Why? Because sometimes the accused is actually not guilty.
As passions subside, a civilized people should ask: To be clear, the people bombed to smithereens were guilty, right?
If anyone gave a you-know-what about justice, perhaps those in charge of deciding whom to kill might let us know their names, present proof of their guilt, and show evidence of their crimes.
The administration has maintained that the people blown to smithereens were members of Tren de Aragua and therefore narcoterrorists.
Certainly, then, if we know they belong to a particular gang, then someone must surely have known their names before they were blown to smithereens?
At the very least, the government should explain how the gang came to be labelled as terrorists. U.S. law defines a terrorist as someone who uses "premeditated, politically motivated violence…against non-combatants." Since the U.S. policy is now to blow people to smithereens if they are suspected of being in a terrorist gang, then maybe someone could take the time to explain the evidence of their terrorism?
Critics of this whole terrorist labelling charade, such as Matthew Petti at Reason, explain that: "In practice, that means that a 'terrorist' is whoever the executive branch decides to label one."
While no law dictates such, once people are labelled as terrorists, they appear to no longer be eligible for any sort of due process.
The blow-them-to-smithereens crowd, at this point, will loudly voice their opinion that people in international waters whom we label as terrorists deserve no due process. Vice President Vance asserts: "There are people who are bringing—literal terrorists—who are bringing deadly drugs into our country."
Which, of course, raises the questions:
- Who labelled them and with what evidence?
- What are their names, and what specifically shows their membership and guilt?
The blow-them-to-smithereens crowd also conveniently ignores the fact that death is generally not the penalty for drug smuggling.
The mindless trolls that occupy much of the internet whine that such questions show weakness or commiseration with drug pushers who are killing our kids. A ludicrous assertion to most sentient humans, but one I fear requires a response.
International law and norms have always granted due process to individuals on the high seas not actively involved in combat. U.S. maritime laws explain in detail the level of force and the escalation of force allowed in the interdiction of drugs.
Hundreds of ships are stopped and searched. The blow-them-to-smithereens crowd might stop to ponder that a good percentage of the ships searched actually turn out not to be drug smugglers.
Coast Guard statistics show that about one in four interdictions finds no drugs. So far, the administration has blown up four boats suspected of drug smuggling. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance that one of these boats may not have had any drugs on board.
If the U.S. policy is to blow all suspected ships to smithereens, should that policy really be extolled as "the highest and best use of our military?"
Jake Romm puts the dilemma of whom to designate as a terrorist into sharp relief: "The hollowness and malleability of the term [terrorism] means that it can be applied to groups regardless of their actual conduct and regardless of their actual ideology. It admits only a circular definition…that a terrorist is someone who carries out terrorist acts, and a terrorist act is violence carried out by a terrorist. Conversely, if someone is killed, it is because they are a terrorist, because to be a terrorist means to be killable."
Few independent legal scholars argue the strikes are legal. Even John Yoo—a former deputy assistant attorney general under President George W. Bush, who infamously authored the Bush administration's legal justification for "enhanced interrogation techniques"—has criticized the Trump administration's justification for the strikes, saying: "There has to be a line between crime and war. We can't just consider anything that harms the country to be a matter for the military. Because that could potentially include every crime."
Jon Duffy, a retired Navy Captain, eloquently summarizes our current moment: "A republic that allows its leaders to kill without law, to wage war without strategy, and to deploy troops without limit is a republic in deep peril. Congress will not stop it. The courts will not stop it. That leaves those sworn not to a man, but to the Constitution."
Congress must not allow the executive branch to become judge, jury, and executioner. President Thomas Jefferson understood the framers' intention that the president defer to Congress on matters of offensive war. That's why Jefferson, when faced with the belligerence of the Barbary pirates in 1801, recognized that he was "unauthorized by the Constitution, without the sanction of Congress, to go beyond the line of defense."
Jefferson wanted the authority to act offensively against the pirates, but he respected the intentional checks placed on the executive within the Constitution. Only after Congress passed an "Act for the Protection of Commerce and Seamen of the United States, against the Tripolitan Cruisers" in February 1802, did he order offensive naval operations. If the Trump administration wants to use military power, it should seek authorization from Congress. And Congress must have the courage as the people's representatives to reassert its constitutional duty to decide matters of war and peace.
This article is based on a speech Sen. Rand Paul (R–Ky.) gave on the Senate floor Wednesday while introducing a War Powers Act resolution, which he cosponsored.
The American people do not want to be dragged into a forever war without public debate or a vote.
I took to the Senate floor to defend what the Constitution demands: deliberation before war.
Watch my remarks???? pic.twitter.com/eq5fGvmqFu
— Senator Rand Paul (@SenRandPaul) October 8, 2025
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"Because I said so.", is not an acceptable answer to a law abiding society.
Did Trump or Rubio bother to consult the NATO member on the front line in his instant war ?
The closest ports of call for smuggler boats outbound from Venezuela are not on US territory, but the heavily touristed islands of the Netherlands Antilles.
Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire lie just tens of miles offshore and boast drug cultures rivaling Amsterdam, but the Dutch keep the lid on the drug trade with ordinary coast guard boats, not reaper drones or Hellfire missiles.
Um... Curaçao was/is a Dutch island (a good thing) just off the coast of Venezuela. The Dutch are centuries ahead of Murrican ku-kluxers, German nationalsozialists commie (or Altruist Totalitarian) one-worlders. YOU RAISE A GOOD POINT. If Venezuela achieves nuclear capability, "unequal yet apposite reprisal force" may make its meaning disconcertingly clear. Raise your hand if you will MISS the D of C.
As much as I don't care if drug smugglers get blown out of the water I am having a hard time coming up with a legal justification for Trump to order it done.
Oooh, someone lit the batshit signal. Pretty soon the Trumpies will be in here claiming Rand Paul is not a libertarian, with the batshit implication that Trump is the most libertarian President evar!
They may as well have lit the JFree signal, given his hatred of everything Ron and Rand Paul.
No, Rand is the single most consistent Senator in the Senate. Even if you do not AGREE, you know exactly what his thinking is because he does not change his beliefs without a significant change in the circmstances.
I cannot bring myself to CARE if boats get blown up.
Yeah, exactly this. Rand is one of the only people in DC with actual values and any idea what's in the constitution.
That said, I know he is right on principle here, but I can't muster many shits to give in this particular instance.
Agree. I feel Rand is ignoring a lot of context and framing it in a particular way to make the action more objectionable than necessary.
I wish I saw more of the nuance from Massie and Paul. They're right in principle but too often give comfort to those who create destruction while impeding progress.
Another vote for immorality, illegality, and inhumanity. MAGA is feeling their oats today!
It's more objectionable than he said.
(1) It's an extension of the Drug War, which is in itself a violation of both Constituional principle and natural rights.
(2) It is a violation of the laws of the sea as Americans have fought for over centuries. (The War of 1812 was waged over less than what the US Navy has here done.)
Yep. Rand s a good guy, and decent senator. I disagree with Jim in this, but I know he comes by his opposition honestly.
Unlike democrats and RINOs, Rand is not my enemy.
Hilarious
I agree!
“ That said, I know he is right on principle here, but I can't muster many shits to give in this particular instance.”
The Trumpists and their lack of morality is on full display today. You don’t care if innocent people get killed?
It's a man-crush thing.
I cannot bring myself to CARE if boats get blown up.
Personally, I'm put off by the 2,251st(? 2,252nd?) article to work backwards from the premise that is the headline.
We've all had the 'Jefferson and The Barbary Pirates' speech at least once; for those of us around since the days of 'nonuniform combatants', probably several times. The feudalist, dynastic, pax imperial; "It was done this way, thus it will be done always." isn't really more Constitutional. Especially given the the way that that's been the explicitly "wrong arc of history" for the last 20 yrs. There are people in Rand's midst who are pretty clear that their reading of The Constitution includes providing free healthcare, income for life, and a pony for anyone who sets foot on our soil. That people who arrived after the Civil Rights Era owe taxes on their unrealized capital gains in order to remunerate people who share a name with someone who was alive before the Civil War.
Rand's voice carries a little more weight than most, but in the clamor of tearing down gas lampposts, he's difficult if not a moot distinction from the people who only want to tear them down because their deeds are even more wicked and their motivations even more evil.
I agree we shouldn't tear down the lamp post but, at this point, I don't think either Rand or myself is in charge and/or has any power to stop it.
“ I cannot bring myself to CARE if boats get blown up.”
That is about as stark a declaration of inhumanity as it gets. You don’t care if innocent people get killed by the US government? Hell, leave aside the government part.
You don’t care if innocent people die. That is pure psychopathy.
Democrats are supporting a guy who wished death on a political rival and his children.
Spare me your outrage.
I do not have sufficient shits to give. I don't even have enough to give if progs who vote for asinine policies die due to those policies.
So you’re going with “Liberals make me angry, so that makes it OK to be completely immoral and inhumane”?
Do you want to say, “Look what liberals made me do!”, too?
Your logic is exactly the same as someone who beats their wife. Probably for a reason.
For the record, your position as well as your insistence that it’s perfectly reasonable and justified is morally reprehensible. I knew you were an awful person, but you’re clearly even worse than I thought.
Rand Paul voted with the democrats on the latest budget battle, so, yeah, Paul has as much credibility as the National Enquirer.
Perhaps you should look into WHY he voted the way he did. Obeisance to Trump is not high in his priority list, nor mine, but if it floats your boat, ha ha, go ahead and bow in his general direction. He won't bow back.
Here's "why" Paul voted along with the democrats:
$3.6 million for cooking and dance workshops for male prostitutes in Haiti.
$4.2 million for LGBTQ projects in the Western Balkans and Uganda.
$6 million to subsidize Palestinian media outlets.
$3 million for circumcision and vasectomies in Zambia.
more than $833,000 for transgender people in Nepal.
$500,000 to purchase electric buses in Rwanda.
$300,000 to sponsor a gay pride parade in Lesotho.
Please explain the logic behind wasting our tax dollars on this shit.
I’m guessing that your characterization of those budget items is dishonest at best and most likely complete fantasy.
Also, I would point out that no one is trying to add those things to the budget. No one is introducing new spending like that. There is a requirement that spending authorized by Congress be spent in the way that Congress authorized because Congress, not the President, controls the power of the purse.
The only two new things Democrats are requesting are both healthcare-related: making ACA subsidies permanent (since, you know, the amazing, best, beautiful replacement Trump swore was ready to go is only about a decade late) and reinstating Medicaid cuts.
How dare they fight for healthcare for Americans! Especially poor and middle-class Americans! The mosters!
There was a rescission passed, you know.
Healthcare for Americans?
Yes.
Healthcare for illegal aliens?
No.
Also, the above items I listed are in the budget proposal, so, no they are not fantasies.
“ Healthcare for Americans?
Yes.”
Obviously not, since somewhere between 99% and 100% of those cuts hit Americans, not illegal immigrants.
“ Also, the above items I listed are in the budget proposal.”
The things you listed aren’t being added to the budget, not by Republicans and not by Democrats. They (or something vaguely like them that you have run through your Hyperbole Generation Machine) are already in the budget and no one has trued to remove them. Not Democrats and not Republicans.
How exactly is that the fault of the minority party? Perhaps you should point your anger towards the party that controls both houses of Congress, the White House, and the courts. They are the only ones who could remove the things that offend you so much.
“ so, no they are not fantasies”
I said your characterization of the budget items were fantasy. And that is true.
'Guns' don't make healthcare you criminal-minded filth.
It baffles me how anyone thinks government can make healthcare for anyone when the only 'tool' they have that is special is a monopoly of 'Gun' threats..
Why do you allow your basic human intelligence to get so diluted by BS propaganda?
but if it floats your boat
He better hope the government doesn't accuse him of smuggling drugs on that boat.
I'm pretty sure the Reason style guide says "libertarian-leaning Conservative Sen. Rand Paul (R)".
That'd be mental gymnastics worthy of the left considering that Rand Paul was pretty much the only one in the government who objected when Obama had his OLC write a counterpart to John Yoo's "torture memo" which allowed the President to order the killing of US Citizens; after a filibuster by Rand in the Senate the administration backed down to a "compromise" by which the president only had such authority if the President decided it was truly needed (someday I'll get drunk enough to figure out how that's actually different).
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/06/23/324863099/u-s-court-releases-obama-administrations-drone-memo
It was ok under Obama to assassinate a US citizen without his due process over alleged ties to a terror network. Should have impeached and confirmed then.
TdA does more than smuggle drugs; drugs should not be illegal and should be made so while simultaneously eliminating all forms of govt welfare.
Not a fan of this. These weren’t Somali pirates attacking.
"It was ok under Obama to assassinate a US citizen without his due process over alleged ties to a terror network. Should have impeached and confirmed then."
Who and when?
Anwar al-Awlaki
30 September 2011
And his 8 year old sister called Trump a “poop head” and so he assassinated her and 9 of her little friends…only one SEAL was lost in the operation and so Trump considered it a great success!! The Gold Star father disagreed but Trump doesn’t care about them. 😉
Tooo to quoque detected. The looter kleptocracy fissions into two factions for precisely that tag-team purpose
I see you have a copy of sarcles’ logical fallacies manual. Stick with being tag-teamed while Comstocking.
Looks like someone other than Cartman Kire inherited the Chumpy klanhood
Pretty much this. Obama killed no shit citizens with drone strikes, intentionally at that, and no one seemed to care all that much.
I might not agree with that style of Presidential authority, but to cry about it now after a few decades is also pretty dumb.
They should have been upset about this a lot sooner, and the fact they weren't tells you most of what you need to know. Most importantly, it tells us that nothing is likely to change.
TBF, Rand was one of the only people in government to call Obama out on it.
I get it... girl-bullying mystical Comstock collectivist Rand, not Ayn...
Rand Paul tried a filibuster over the issue, but the MSM coverage was along the lines of "there goes the libertarian nutbag getting worked up over nothing again", or the more friendly coverage he received in some outlets was "does anyone know what this guy's so upset about? Because we can't be bothered to look into it right now."
Rand PAul definitely cared and objected then.
It doesn't allow the president to unilaterally drone bomb weddings either. Define allow?
Not defending Obama's drone strike (and I absolutely didn't defend when it happened) but Congress did weigh in on that. The AUMF against Al queda and its affiliates arguably provided SOME justification since the claim was that supposed members of a foreign terrorist organization were targeted in the strike. The fact that it was a US citizen and this was done without due process IS a problem. The fact that he was on foreign soil at the time of the strike does not, IMO, excuse dispensing with due process as to him or any other US citizens wherever they may be.
Trump and the DoD are not operating with an AUMF against Tren de Argua. There is no declared war or AUMF against Venezuela. I am not even sure a drug cartel can even be a terrorist organization as that term is normally understood. What we are seeing is an expansion of the prior bad precedent set in the war on terror to now a criminal group the administration decided to label terrorists. Which is a very dangerous precedent given the executive branch is sidestepping Congress entirely. It is circular logic... they can be blown up because they are terrorists and they are terrorists because we said so...even though they are engaging in what is nominally considered regular criminal activity (drug dealing and related crimes). Bypassing Congress to deploy the military in lethal operations is hugely problematic (constitutionally speaking) but its yet another expansion of executive authority that concerns me because this same executive is now naming domestic groups 'terrorists' and the precedent set by these cartel killings could be expanded domestically. ANTIFA are domestic terrorists now and terrorists can be killed because they are terrorists, right?
Anwar Al Aliki (sp) was killed on foreign soil. These alleged cartel boats are being blown up in international waters. What is the next step? Oversight is non existent...GOP majority congress won't assert itself against their party leader...independent inspectors general are fired or powerless... regime loyalists are being installed in all important positions...experience/ethics doesn't matter...its just a real bad combination of factors that makes the risk of further executive overreach all the more probable. It sucks.
In other words, you are defending it.
Apparently as long as there is some piece of paper that a President can point to - while unilaterally extending his own authority - you are fine with it.
To be clear, the people bombed to smithereens were guilty, right?
Yep.
The blow-them-to-smithereens crowd also conveniently ignores the fact that death is generally not the penalty for drug smuggling.
"Generally."
We're making some exceptions here. Let's hope they become the rule.
Look Rand, this is very simple. Y'all let the problem get out of control. It's no different than dispatching the National Guard to Portland or throwing everyone scurrying at the sight of cherries at Home Depot into Alligator Alcatraz.
We're past preventative medicine here. It's triage time. And if that means amputating an arm in the field, then Doc Sawbones is ready to do his job. Messy and unpleasant as it may be.
You - YOU - helped make this mess. It makes one wonder whether A) you made it on purpose in order to campaign on being against fixing it; or B) you let it be made because you just friggin' hate America and Americans.
Bomb the boats. It's no different than Hamas hiding in schools and hospitals. They're exploiting our virtue and morality. Enough. Bomb them. And then lament the collateral damage. If any.
It's even simpler: no one knows if they really were drug smugglers, immigrant smugglers, or anything smugglers. No one knows where it was heading. It was not in US territorial waters. It was not in a war zone.
It was straight-up murder.
I don't think you're giving MILINT enough credit.
We live in the age of technology and total surveillance, SGT. They know how many times a day you jack off to hentai. You think they don't know who's on a narcoterrorist drug boat?
I don't think you're giving MILINT enough credit.
*Any* INT.
The implosion of the Oceangate submersible, more than 2 miles below the surface was heard practically in real time by the US Navy passive sonar station some 900 miles away, but the multi-engine speed boat cutting through waves in international waters could've been any unknown Venezuelan tourist or fisherman out headed to their favorite spot that just happened to have a drone flying over it. Nobody knows!
Yeah, hopefully not Bidens' advisors who droned that poor Iraqi family for revenge of the pullout disaster. That was classic military intelligence at extra retard level.
And the media really thought we should like Biden....
Trump’s first military order was to obliterate a little American girl and 9 of her little friends. No actionable intelligence was gathered and a SEAL was killed in the mission and then Trump lied to the Gold Star father. But you care more about a volleyball player with hair balls than the SEAL and Gold Star father. 😉
Also ignore all those keys of drugs that were swept up after. Total coincidence.
JizzeAzz, alcohol is more dangerous than cocaine…Trump doesn’t like either.
And if they start illegally trafficking that, we'll bomb those boats too.
America did that! Every aspect of the Federal government Reason commenters traditionally despise was developed to enforce Prohibition. Oh, and the Federal government also went to war against Mormons before that!!
I don't think you understand innocent until proven guilty or trials.
You didn't answer the question.
But, ngl, I'm kinda liking the direction you're heading where we assert American rule of law and social/political culture over the entire world. I mean, obviously we'd have to invade and conquer first, but I agree with you that would be a good thing. Every country that's not America is one that needs some serious fixing, isn't it.
And why not? Forget MAGA. We could try to make the WORLD American (and therefore also Christian). I can get behind that. Good idea!
Planet America!
Is AT really George W. Bush?
See? Christian National Socialism hasn't learned since the Hitler platform of 1920.
Wasn't my idea, it was SGT's.
Nope. This was a legit military operation. And they took out a hostile military target. It also dissuades further such incursions in a language the scumbags can understand.
I don't think you understand innocent until proven guilty or trials.
Who elected you President of International Waters? Irony?
From where I sit, even if you are owed presumption of innocence and a speedy trial in this country, you've *still* got less authority either side of the coastline than the 11 people who got blown up.
I used to think that foreigners who complained about American presumptuousness were just being stodgy and pretentious, but it turns out that lots of us really are really, really stupid about how things work just the other side of our front door.
It was straight-up murder.
Name the President or General impeached, dismissed, or convicted for green lighting the operation that ended with murder.
Even troops on the battlefield, guilty of no-shit murder get a court-martial under the UCMJ.
The argument that illegal immigrants are owed full citizenship rights and equal due process by virtue of being ambulatory but no one in the chain of any military command anywhere is owed even a UCMJ-level of presumption of innocence or evidentiary finding even for events in international waters is certainly an interesting libertarian take.
I'm not saying you're wrong but (forgive the conspiratorial bent, but I survived COVID, the destruction of NS1 and 2, and The Ghost of Kiev) do we even have evidence that this isn't pure fabrication?
These weren't illegal immigrants inside our borders.
No shit, dumbass. This isn't difficult, my kids have understood since they were about 6 that they could "legally" get away with stuff on our property that they couldn't get away with on a public street or on someone else's property or at school or in another country. That taking something from our fridge or one of their friends' fridges was generally acceptable but that going into someone else's house and taking from their fridge could rightfully get them shot.
The vast majority of even exceedingly young teens learns that it's entirely legal for them to ride dirt bikes, snow mobiles, and cars on designated private property but not on public roadways. They learn that they can drive the speed limit on the local interstate but much, much faster on the autobahn.
Rand at least makes the point that even if they were illegally transporting drugs within our borders the sentence isn't normally summary execution (much less so for simple being here illegally). If you agree with him, why are you diluting his point with your stupidity?
More critically to my point: if illegal immigrants are owed the fullest of full throated due process *within* our borders than isn't every single *citizen* along the "kill chain" defending our country, even if only nominally, owed the barest semblance of the same? Because otherwise, you seem a lot like every other dishonest retarded leftist who's certain that the only reason the US and its government should exist is as means to (re)distribute its wealth to the world.
If they were heading to the US under orders or at the pleasure of Venezuelan political leadership, then they were enemy combatants in an as-yet-undeclared war. Should we have waited for Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor anyway if we had advance notice and an opportunity to intercept?
They weren't combatants unless they intended combat.
Nope, try again.
“…..no one knows…..”
Just because you don’t know doesn’t mean no one knows.
But I’m sure the war department just likes to blow up fishermen. Lol.
"We're past preventative medicine here. It's triage time. And if that means amputating an arm in the field, then Doc Sawbones is ready to do his job. Messy and unpleasant as it may be."
Nah. We still have this document you might find inconvenient called the Constitution. It controls all. Check Amendments 5 and 14.
What Israel does is their issue. We shouldn't be financing their war anyway.
I didn't realize that South American terrorist narcotraffickers had American Constitutional rights. Can you show me in the Federalist Papers where the Founders went out of their way to protect that sort of thing and describe its virtue to American society/culture?
The Voice of Christian National Socialism is Altruist Totalitarian here...
Boy that is just chock full of contradiction there, isn't it.
Hank has been full senile for at least a decade. I think he’s in a home now.
See? Altruist Totalitarian knows izzakly who Jesus would bomb... it's in the Wholly Bauble!
Keep at it Rand. Got to end this insanity of an imperial presidency who wipes their ass with the Constitution while an idle corrupt Congress willingly sits back and watchs from a DC $500 plate fundraiser.
Right...you'll have to convince Congress to do their job. They have sold out the American people and enabled an imperial Presidency for decades. But the political class likes it that way. Trump is an openly corrupt caricature of what the Swamp is and the Swamp hates him for exposing them and flaunts it in their face.
Good luck. They're the only people in government who want LESS power. So long as they can cash their checks, engage in insider trading, and feign outrage each time they're in the minority.
I'm glad someone with more credibility here than me is also saying this! Keep at it SaGN!
If any of these people were Americans, I have a huge problem with this. Just as I had a huge problem with Obama droning Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16-year-old son.
And that the fact that I am on the opposite side of AT, makes me doubly sure this is wrong.
If any of these people were Americans
Where's their family? Employers? Co-workers? Attorneys?
I don't disagree with the "If these people were Americans...", but this feels a lot like the "Collateral Murder" video (or the even more retarded NYT story about SEALs stabbing Nork fishermen to death) where journalists are embedded with dudes carrying AK-47s in a warzone "Just to film a humvee under attack." except... no journalists or claims of journalists or citizens or wahtever.
And how do you know none of them were Americans? They're dead, Jim, fish food. That's the point.
Friends. Family. Coworkers. Employment records. Mortgages. Boat loans. Vacation plans...
You know the way you would identify any other body you found as a relatively normal person and if you found a body specifically without any/all of the above would be shady AF and *still* wouldn't necessarily conclusively establish murder.
If any of these people were Americans, I have a huge problem with this.
Why?
I’ve long since muted AT because his hatred of and obsession with anyone who doesn’t look or believe like he does got really old. Being on the opposite side of him is a pretty reliable indicator that you are on the right side of any issue.
As passions subside, a civilized people should ask: To be clear, the people bombed to smithereens were guilty, right?
With all due respect (bang up job on Fauci and Comey BTW), to be clear, we're all sure Qasem Soleimani was guilty, right Senator?
Rand Paul is a leftist Marxist with TDS.
Did you get drunk and confuse yourself for Rand Paul again?
Rand is a good man, not a piece of shit Marxist drunk like you.
I'd a swore the guy was a Cartman Kirk clone eager to force unconvicted women into involuntary labor, 13A be lynched! Did Daddy change his name from Drumpf to Rand?
If it can be proven without a shadow of doubt the Venezuelan ship had drugs and was in the US territorial waters, yes, the Commander-in-Chief can exercise his right to defend the US with all the toys available as other POTUS have done.
They were in international waters.
And that’s not actually how the use of deadly military force works, either. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
We do not need to wait until hostiles are in US waters to defend ourselves.
By that logic, the US can kill anyone outside the country and claim the killed were hostiles who were planning to make their way to the US.
Yup. Might has that benefit.
The US has been called all types of horrible names for as long as I've been alive.
Time for us to live up to their beliefs about us.
Pretty sure we’ve already done this…
No, we can't "kill anyone". We can kill hostiles engaged in attacking us. Are you a chemjeff sock? "But they could kill anyone!" is usually where his rants end up.
Within the law, of course. Thats just common self defense.
Look, I'm about 95% of the way with you, Senator. But exactly what part of "international law" are you claiming this violates? Cite the treaty name and specific article of that treaty, please.
Because no nation has come forward to claim that these were vessels under their flag*. And provisions of international law limiting what a nation-state may do to a vessel without nationality are, to my knowledge, utterly nonexistent.
But I'm willing to be educated. So. Cite the treaty and article thereof, please. Or, you know, cut the bullshit line about "international law".
*I am currently discounting the Colombian President's latest social media post about "indications" that one of the boats was Colombian. Even if/when Colombia formally claims one of the specific boats, that will still leave the others as stateless vessels.
Yeah. The citation of international law is laughable. Even if they claim Venezuela, the treaties there dont cover it, maduro is even under US indictment with TdA declared an FTO.
Rand sounds like democrats putting non existent global laws above the US.
Well, I mean, if they're Venezuelan- or Colombian-flagged, there are plausible provisions of international law to apply. It's generally an act of war to blow up another country's vessels on the high seas, and there's actual international law about conducting war. It would actually take parsing things.
But if they're vessels without a state, international law pretty much says nothing; the international law on vessels without nationality starts and stops with the right of any state to choose to exercise its sovereignty over the vessel. What a state does to a flagless vessel in international waters is legal under international law if it would be legal under international law for the state to do it to its own ships.
And there's nothing I can think of in international law that bars a country from blowing up its own ships for almost any reason the country thinks is proper. (I mean, it's not allowed as part of a campaign of genocide, and . . . well, that's pretty much it.)
Even the UN charter allows it.
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations.
State supported cartels have been armed attacking us for decades.
I hope others in Congress are also grabbing their nuts and preparing to do something that resembles the job they are supposed to do under the Constitution. Because your institution has less than a month before Rubio gets the US into a full on regime-change war.
That's the sole purpose of the US sinking what are probably fishing boats. The sole reason why el salvador naranja has already deployed 7000 troops, eight warships, and P-8's and F-35's to the area. That's not enough for a full on invasion - but it's more than enough to begin creating its own momentum.
Why not? They got away with invading Panama, killing people right and left and looting every bank in the country to protect "the children" from reefer madness and cocaine negroes, remember? Brazil went into crippling hyperinflation, and the smaller fry, recessions and unemployment for obeying the white devils with insufficient smartness. It got George Holy War Bush defeated, but there are plenty more prohibitionist totalitarians where he came from, all of them eager for shoot-first prohibition looting.
The failure to stop that rests on Congress. We expect a Prez to exercise CinC power if he can. We expect Congress to have the backbone to authorize/withhold/fund/defund/regulate/mobilize/demobilize/arm/disarm/etc.
Instead Congress has chosen to have the backbone of a chocolate eclair. And it's prob our fault because we keep electing them. Though I don't believe elections are really possible anymore
But over 20,000 people are murdered in the U.S. each year, and yet somehow we find a way to a dispassionate dispensation of justice
Actually, we do a pretty shit job of dispensing justice for murder. Almost half of all murders go unpunished and it doesn't get better for other crimes.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/194213/crime-clearance-rate-by-type-in-the-us/
Only 8 years for murdering a 6 year old if you live in a blue state.
See below. For something like a decade Chicago's murder clearance rate has been on the order of 30%. The last couple years it's pushed up to the mid-40s. One major difference has been the "Solved - bar to prosecute" classification.
So someone shot five times in the back can have their murder pinned on someone who's already on trial or whatever, the City refuses to prosecute based on the evidence, and the case gets closed.
And if you think I'm being conspiratorial or whatever, the City just paid out $90M for 180 false convictions... that weren't related to John Burge... or Joesph Miedzianowski... and after the OPS was reorganized into the OPR because they had too many cops professionally reviewing other cops... and then the OPR was reorganized into IPRA because they had too many former cops and police-adjacent civilians reviewing other cops.
Almost half of all murders go unpunished and it doesn't get better for other crimes.
And this is the "LOL! Get aload of this guy who takes the crime statistics at face value!" interpretation.
Interesting that BOTH of the Paul family Republican Comstock law enforcers still believe Reason is important enough to infiltrate for purposes of establishing creds as fake libertarian infiltrators. When one of their number openly advocated for restoring Argentine denial of individual rights, again subjecting pregnant women to forced labor at involuntary reproduction, BA voters smelt a rat and Milei's carajo party is on its way out. Happens every time...
Rubber baby bumper Comstock asparagus.
What the hell is his obsession with Comstock?
"killing cartel members who poison our fellow citizens is the highest and best use of our military."
When challenged that killing citizens without due process is a war crime, the vice president responded that he "didn't give a shit."
CITIZENS OF WHERE?
Killing armed foreign men in speedboats shipping drugs is not a war crime. There is no due process required. There wasn't for an Iraqi family wedding, there wasn't for a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory, and there isn't for Venezuelan drug runners.
I love you Rand and hope to bear your children, but this isn't what you guys claim it is.
Trump said they were foreign so they must have been. Trump said they were shipping drugs so they must have been. As a Libertarian, I believe everything the President tweets and think he should have unlimited power to kill whoever he says is a bad guy.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#aversion-therapy
Fu Manchu is a Catholic priest? Who knew?
These days it isn’t the priests we worry about, it’s democrat activists.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html
Killing armed foreign men
Armed? MAGA apologist confabulation.
It’s Mother’s Lament. He and Jesse are the leaders of the Paleocon Idiot’s Brigade. They couldn’t be honest if their lives depended on it.
We’re honest, you’re a liar. Like the rest of democratkind.
Seeing as none of us are privy to the intel, everyone’s speculation is equally invalid.
Hi DesigNate.
Yes, but for clarity, I'm not claiming they weren't armed, just that since we don't know this is not a factor available to justify their execution. In my view, it's their natural right to be armed anyway unless we know they've used them aggressively.
In case any of you are not paying attention, this is 21st century Monroe Doctrine messaging directed squarely at the CCP.
I’m definite with Senator Paul on this one. Maybe blowing them up is easier than detaining and prosecuting them, but we don’t bypass justice in the name of convenience. Get their names, file affidavits, and bring them to court for their crimes.
This “Clear and Present Danger” bullshit is over the line.
What court do you think has jurisdiction over them?
Also, language.
Wait. You're gleeful over blowing up suspected traffickers, but someone saying "bullshit" crosses the line for you?
It isn’t about being gleeful. It’s about these things finally being dealt with. Which is a relief.
Enough is enough.
What law though? Does US law extent past the 3-mile limit? 10-miles?
The US right to defend ourselves against attack by hostile foreign powers extends to the observable universe.
Venezuela will likely dial back their bullshit now.
Is there such a thing as just one smithereen, or are they always plural?
I think you'd just refer to them as "Pat DiNizio" or "Jim Babjak" or just "Jim" or whatever. You wouldn't refer to Mic Jagger as "That Rolling Stone right over there!" They're only The Smithereens when they're on stage playing or otherwise performing together.
But I'm not the proper noun police.
the day DiNizio died there was one Smithereen
If the US can extend it's law into international waters, so can China and Russia.
Well, yes?
I mean, that's literally the case, explicitly codified in international law. Every single ship in international waters is subject to the laws of either one country (its "flag state"), or every country (if it doesn't have a flag).
A flagless vessel in international waters is under the law of whomever gets there first. If you're on unflagged vessel 50 kilometers off the coast of Florida, and the Chinese decide to do something to you? Chinese law fully applies.
Unless, of course, the Iranians get there first, in which case Iranian law applies.
Against a hostile foreign power staging an incursion on them? Then yes. What they can’t do are unilaterally annex territorial waters. Which is what they have been doing. And none of the people here clutching their pearls over blowing up the Venezuelan boat have said shit about that.
Great article. Reason as General Dreedle's son in law.
https://youtu.be/g6gP29QKG5c?t=222
"When challenged that killing citizens without due process is a war crime, the vice president responded that he "didn't give a shit."
Not sure if that falls under "common good" or "living" constitutional theories but Vance 2028
>>International law and norms have always granted due process to individuals on the high seas not actively involved in combat.
is channeling your inner Anthony Kennedy ever the answer?
The constitution doesn't "allow" many government actions, the constitution is a framework and was never intended to address drug smuggling by foreign cartels supported by their corrupt governments.
The Constitution never allowed federal drug prohibition either.
The constitution certainly allows the govt to kill enemies. It specifically requires it!
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion"
How that power is exercised is up to congress. And theyve muddied and delegated so much, anything is possible.
Between the WoD, GWoT, and the Patriot Act, I’d bet dollars to donuts that there is a fig leaf of cover for these strikes. Not that I agree with them or their necessity.
Since when does the US Constitution apply to foreign nationals violating international law in international waters? Sorry Rand, you have it wrong. There's plenty of precedence for this if you want to look it up. I'll throw out the Barbary Pirates for openers. Then there's the Department of Commerce Revenuers, the fore-fathers of the US Coast Guard during prohibition.
Rand specifically addresses the Barbary Pirates. Jefferson asked Congress to authorize action, and they did.
We blow up terrorists in someone else's country all the time. Obama didn't ask for Pakistan's permission to take out Bin Laden. Clinton didn't give anyone due process in the weapons factories he bombed. Many drone attacks are self explanatory.
Rand might be correct in insisting that the president ask congressional authorization for that, or if drug cartels meet the definition of a "terrorist". He's certainly coming from a more intellectually honest place, unlike the left who developed amnesia and is clutching pearls at government blowing up people.
But let's not wax poetics about "murdering people". Given that democrats never required THEIR presidents ask congress for wartime powers, Trump should continue to act in the name of national defense as long as he's targeting groups lawfully labeled as terrorists. They're free to sue Trump and prevail at SC, which will help tie the hands of every future president.
That makes no sense. If democrats did awful shit should we do it as well?
"The Constitution Does Not Allow the President To Unilaterally Blow Suspected Drug Smugglers to Smithereens"
How about suspected smugglers with a 50 megaton nuclear device?
>If the Trump administration wants to use military power, it should seek authorization from Congress, says Sen. Rand Paul.
Why? Your predecessors gave his predecessors effectively unlimited power to deploy the American military against targets of the president's choosing - including Americans.
*Now* all of a sudden you want to reign him in? But none of your peers do.
Don't bother trying to appeal to us until you have your own house in order. Then you can just take your power back.
That makes no sense. Rand Paul has been consistent on this under every administration.
"I'm a lefty faggot who supports lefty faggot things because some other lefty faggot previously did the same lefty faggot things. Don't bother criticizing me until you deal with the other lefty faggots."
Exactly!
If the Trump administration wants to use military power, it should seek authorization from Congress, says Sen. Rand Paul.
Unfortunately - he is spending his time writing sermons for the choir here rather than doing his job and convincing his fellow critters to force the Prez to do that.
I nominate Rand Paul to be the next President!