Trump's Case Against Birthright Citizenship Is a Constitutional Loser
The text and history of the Fourteenth Amendment run counter to Trump’s executive order.

President Donald Trump's executive order purporting to abolish birthright citizenship for millions of U.S.-born children is an insult to the text, history, and original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. On May 15, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in a consolidated case arising from this pernicious presidential decree. So long as the Supreme Court's self-professed "originalists" practice what they preach, the case will be a well-deserved defeat for Trump.
Drafted in 1866 and ratified in 1868, the Fourteenth Amendment declares in its first section that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
The current legal debate over birthright citizenship centers on the meaning of the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction." So, what does it mean?
According to Trump, a child who is born in the United States, but whose "mother was unlawfully present" and whose "father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident," is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and is therefore ineligible for birthright citizenship. Likewise, according to Trump, a child who is born in the U.S. but whose "mother's presence in the United States at the time of said person's birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa)," and whose "father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident," is also ineligible.
But illegal immigrants and temporary lawful visitors are "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States as that phrase was originally understood when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.
To understand why, let's start with the text, as originally understood circa 1866-1868. The 1865 edition of Noah Webster's popular An American Dictionary of the English Language defined "jurisdiction," when applied to a government, as meaning the "power of governing or legislating," "the right of making or enforcing laws," and "the power or right of exercising authority." In other words, to be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States meant to be subject to U.S. law and authority. It meant that a person must follow U.S. law or else face punishment in the U.S. legal system.
And guess who must follow U.S. law or else face punishment in the U.S. legal system? Illegal immigrants and lawful temporary visitors.
This meaning of "jurisdiction" was already well-established in U.S. case law at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment's adoption. Consider Chief Justice John Marshall's 1812 opinion in Schooner Exchange v. McFadden. "When private individuals of one nation spread themselves through another as business or caprice may direct, mingling indiscriminately with the inhabitants of that other," Marshall wrote, "it would be obviously inconvenient and dangerous to society, and would subject the laws to continual infraction, and the government to degradation, if such individuals or merchants did not owe temporary and local allegiance, and were not amenable to the jurisdiction of the country." Put differently, when foreigners are present on U.S. soil, they are subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
The congressional debates over the Fourteenth Amendment provide additional evidence in support of this original understanding. Sen. Jacob Howard (R–Mich.), for example, shepherded the amendment to passage as its floor manager in the Senate. As Howard explained in a widely reprinted 1866 speech, while birthright citizenship would not extend to "persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States," those eligible for birthright citizenship "will include every other class of persons."
As you can see, Howard specified two classes of U.S.-born children who are ineligible for birthright citizenship: those whose parents are "ambassadors" and those whose parents are "foreign ministers." What makes those two sets of parents different? The answer is simple: Ambassadors and foreign ministers have diplomatic immunity and are thus not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. The U.S-born children of invading foreign troops are likewise excluded from birthright citizenship under this original understanding, since foreign troops are subject to the laws of war, not to the laws of whatever country they are fighting in.
"Every other class" of U.S.-born children, however, is eligible for birthright citizenship, including the children of permanent resident aliens, of temporary visiting aliens, and of illegal aliens. Why? Because those classes of aliens are subject to U.S. jurisdiction. They all must follow U.S. law or else face punishment in the U.S. legal system.
Even the congressional opponents of the Fourteenth Amendment shared this original understanding of birthright citizenship. Sen. Edgar Cowen (R–Pa.), for example, demanded to know if "the child of a Gypsy born in Pennsylvania" would be a citizen. "Is it proposed that the people of California are to remain quiescent," Cowen squealed, "while they are overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongol race?"
Cowen understood that the U.S.-born children of unpopular immigrants would become citizens if the Fourteenth Amendment was passed. Indeed, that understanding was a key reason why Cowen opposed the amendment in the first place. Needless to say, when both sides of such a dispute agree on the meaning of a constitutional provision, that real-time agreement provides valuable historical evidence about the provision's original meaning.
So, contra Trump, the text and history of the Fourteenth Amendment are clear: If a child is born on U.S. soil, and that child's parents are not diplomats, foreign ministers, or invading foreign troops, then that child is a U.S. citizen at birth.
There are several justices now sitting on the Supreme Court who claim to care about the original meaning of the Constitution. If those justices are serious, they will treat Trump's case against birthright citizenship as the constitutional loser that it is.
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Pretty hilarious how Trump defenders claim he has the authority to ignore laws they deem to be unconstitutional, and at the same time they defend him dictating tax law and claiming the document means something other than what it says. What a bunch of unprincipled liars.
Funny that you're too dumb to actually understand an argument and apparently try think an amendment is a law.
How many constitutional professors do you need me to link? There's even liberal ones who wrote a book about the 14th not granting jus soli citizenship.
Every argument you make is worthless. Pretty funny.
C'mon Reason, just say it: There's no justification for any deportation. Ever. If you made it here, no matter what the circumstances, no matter what crimes you've committed, you get to stay and use any and all resources provided by the American taxpayer.
Unless, of course, they are white SA's facing genocide. Those should be sent back, because TRUMP!!!
Reason and other principled people: The Constitution means what it says. That means that children of immigrants, even the unpopular ones, are citizens. It also means that all immigrants, legal and illegal, have a right to due process.
Idaho and other lying, unprincipled sacks of Trump defending shit: That means you don't want anyone deported at all!
Reason and other principled people: That is not what was said. We're saying that the Constitution should be followed. That means that illegals get due process before they are deported, and that their kids that were born here are citizens.
Idaho and other lying, unprincipled sacks of Trump defending shit: You don't want any deportations! You don't want any deportations! You don't want any deportations!
Reason and other principled people: *sigh*
Do you even know the actual words to the 14th. Or what jurisdiction means? Or how to read the original debate records around the 14th?
“ Or what jurisdiction means? Or how to read the original debate records around the 14th?”
That was pretty comprehensively discussed in the article. Children born in the United States to illegal immigrants are citizens. It’s not even a serious debate, unless you are so enraged by illegal immigration that you think sacrificing the Constitution is worth it to get rid of them.
BYW, there is no chance that illegal immigration can ever be completely stopped unless we seal our borders to all visitors and non-citizens. The most common illegal immigrant is one that entered legally and stayed after their visa expired. How can that be stopped? Time travel and precognition aren’t real things.
So for a goal that is doomed to failure, you want to ignore the foundational document of American law? Why do you hate America?
It’s not a serious debate among democrats like you, because you’re too ignorant and will ignore the truth anyway.
The Constitution was written for the protections of US citizens. Nonimmigrants cannot buy guns is one obvious example. That right is not protected for border jumpers.
There's no due process: the answer is "No, the 2A does not protect illegals right to KABA."
Now show me where the Constitution declares anchor babies are citizens.
While you are at it, show me a single deportation that you, Reason, or any other fucking leftists have supported.
Just one, douchebag.
Nonimmigrants - Non citizens.
“ The Constitution was written for the protections of US citizens.”
Not according to those who wrote it or those who have interpreted it for the last 250 years. You denying reality doesn’t change that at all.
“ Now show me where the Constitution declares anchor babies are citizens”
The Fourteenth Amendment. You don’t pay attention much.
“ While you are at it, show me a single deportation that you, Reason, or any other fucking leftists have supported.”
Every single deportation of an illegal immigrant that has received due process. As long as the government follows any court rulings, sending them back to their own country is exactly what should happen. I support deporting illegal immigrants legally, but that doesn’t make me suddenly oppose deportations.
I support deporting illegal immigrants legally, but that doesn’t make me suddenly oppose deportations.
Exactly.
Non-citizens can buy guns.
Non citizens do not have 2A rights because the 2A is not an individual right, it is a collective right.
Goddamn you’re retarded Tony.
LOL
I just saw the argument from intimidation by sockpoopette Jesse before logging in. The thing's babblings are self-defeating, and can only be intended as red herrings to tie up libertarian effort responding to idiots or bots. But, if arguing beneath your dignity is enjoyable, then by all means let 'em have it both barrels. The Solomon Asch experiment math shows that by showing up and being yourself you entirely moot all their efforts to disparage Reason writers without even needing to address mental retardation cases one-by-one. So I thank sarc and may the sewers of Rangoon back up in the breakfast cereal of all the Jesus Caucus Trumpanzista sockpoopettes.
If we were to measure the retardation of commenters here one-by-one where do you see yourself on the scale Hank?
I miss Agile Cyborg.
Because you're a very pale imitation?
“ Unless, of course, they are white SA's facing genocide”
Palestinians aren’t facing genocide. Neither are white South Africans. The hysteria would be laughable if it weren’t such a serious topic.
Only one of those has suffered murders at the hands of the other in the country and been subject to things such as "Kill the Boer".
"Cowen understood that the U.S.-born children of unpopular immigrants would become citizens if the Fourteenth Amendment was passed."
unpopular ≠ illegal
the definitions are important right? Your essay quotes a dictionary after all.
Illegals are unpopular, right? And that's why you and other Trump defenders oppose them having any rights at all, right?
It would be amazing to see one of you cunts show a shred of honesty.
How fucking dumb are you? How did you not understand his comment?
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
So the Congress, in passing the amendment, intended to allow someone to jump the Rio Grande or a border wall, establish residency upon touching the sand, immediately pop out a baby that is now a US citizen? That was the intention of the language and debates? Is that what they envisioned at the time?
It's even worse than that. They intended for Chinese, Italians, and even Irish people to "establish residency upon touching the sand, immediately pop out a baby that is now a US citizen". Same with black and brown people too. At the time passports and visas did not exist. Neither did birth certificates or Social Security numbers. They treated people like... people. Imagine that.
Except for the Irish and the Chinese. They didn’t like Italians either. Don’t get me started on what they were doing with black people.
But yeah, other than that, peace and harmony.
Very true.
I look at the country as it was when it was founded and am amazed not only at how wonderfully Enlightenment ideals have translated to the real world, but especially how we took the flaws and moral failings of our past and worked diligently to correct them.
It happens slowly due to opposition from conservatives who don’t want things to change, but we have repeatedly proved we are good people trying to do the right thing as a country.
The fact that we aren’t perfect, but keep trying to be better, is the biggest reason for my unwavering pride in my country. America is exceptional, despite what some wish to believe.
Worse... they treated them like individuals--once they were born live and thus qualified for constitutional personhood. Still, one has to at least puzzle at the chutzpah of a gaggle of grotesque rednecks and viragos demanding that women--once pregnant--ought to be stripped of rights and regarded as chattel.
Girlbulliers Hank. One need not puzzle. The grotesque rednecks and viragos nearly brought the republic to it's knees. If not for Libertarian spoiler votes all would be lost.
Yes
I'm hung up on the phrase "of the State wherein they reside". Does it have any determination in their eligibility? If we removed that phrase from the amendment, would it change the amendment's meaning in any way in terms of citizenship? Does the "reside" term have any legal meaning in this section? These are genuine questions.
Look at the word immediately preceding what you quoted. That should answer your question.
I think the point was to guarantee the citizenship of former slaves in the confederate states.
I don't think that quite answers my questions.
Another way to approach the phrase "of the State wherein they reside" is: Does it have a bearing on their eligibility or is it just a post-eligibility confirmation of status?
I take to mean that not only are they a citizen of the U.S. but they are also a citizen of the State wherein they reside.
Ding ding ding! That's what the word "and" means. Imagine that.
States dont grant citizenship retard. They grant residential jurisdiction.
So its a post-eligibility statement, not a portion of the requirements. But it assumes that the citizen eligible person is actually "resid[ing]" in the state. So the Chinese citizen who flys to San Fran to have a baby, would have questionable state residence clearly.
I've found a lengthy scholarly article on this subject if anyone is interested:
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1863&context=jcl
This is a 5 decade debate at this point. Multiple professors with multiple definitions of both sides of the arguments.
No, a small group of people who oppose the obvious and clear intention and meaning of the 14th Amendment and, on the other side, those who don’t have an agenda driving their opinion.
This is yet another example of conservatives making a mountain out of a molehill, or redefining and expanding terms to fit their narratives, or pretending that a 95/5 split is a legitimate debate.
Oh fuck off. You’re nothing but a democrat shill and propagandist.
So this thread is a discussion of the state citizenship clause of the 14th amendment. I'm really not seeing any significant debate about the state citizenship clause anywhere. Especially now that the point of its inclusion (prevention of certain states from withholding rights to freed slaves) is no longer relevant. So what the heck are you talking about here?
The union states vanquished the southern rebellion and subsequently "freed" the slaves. The 14th was passed to guarantee US citizenship to former slaves but also to prevent the confederate states from denying them the rights of citizens in individual states. In other words, Georgia might theoretically recognize a former slave as a US citizen but refuse to let them vote vote in local elections or run for state office. US citizenship is a federal matter but the fear was that the states would continue to deny rights at the local level which some in fact did.
The interpretation of "subject to the jurisdiction" is completely backwards.
More exactingly to your example, a woman gets pregnant, crosses the border, gets caught, gets convicted and, in the process of being deported, has a baby 10 mi. from the border, at the checkpoint... wherever. That baby is a citizen even though it's mother has been duly deigned an illegal foreign national and was deported. After all "subject to the jurisdiction".
More pointedly; two undeclared Russian Nationalists, which, we aren't at war with Russia, are no-shit found to be interfering in elections and failed to declare. If they had a child between arrival and departure on US soil, that child is a US citizen even if he speaks no English beyond "We will bury you."?
Roots' whole "subject to the jurisdiction thereof interpretation" is a post-modern, post-truth confabulation along the lines of "clearly the Civil Rights Act meant 'Gender Identity' when it said 'sex'". This, unfortunately, being the retarded groundwork by which SCOTUS will probably fubar both natives and immigrants, legal and illegal, present and future.
“ That baby is a citizen even though it's mother has been duly deigned an illegal foreign national and was deported”
Yes.
“ they had a child between arrival and departure on US soil, that child is a US citizen even if he speaks no English beyond "We will bury you."?”
Yes.
There is no ideological test for children born in the US, whether the parents are citizens or not. Partly because, as a newborn, they haven’t formed any ideology yet.
“ Roots' whole "subject to the jurisdiction thereof interpretation" is a post-modern, post-truth confabulation”
I didn’t realize that legislators of the 19th century were post-modern. Or post-truth, for that matter. Because they (and every legal interpretation since then) have said that birthright citizenship applies to children of non-citizens. Even illegals.
It is notable that one of the most notorious post-truth people on Earth is the one trying to eliminate birthright citizenship.
You don’t agree with their interpretation. That’s fine. But at least don’t pretend that they didn’t know what they were doing when they crafted the 14th Amendment or that the judges/justices who agreed that birthright citizenship applies to children of foreign parents didn’t understand it either. That’s just dishonest.
Speak for yourself. I was a radial liberal leftist commie the moment my ass first hit air.
Yes Tony, you’re a poster child for infanticide.
“ So the Congress, in passing the amendment, intended to allow someone to jump the Rio Grande or a border wall, establish residency upon touching the sand, immediately pop out a baby that is now a US citizen? That was the intention of the language and debates? Is that what they envisioned at the time?”
No. But that doesn’t make it something they didn’t consider. They just thought the main idea was more important than fringe scenarios like yours.
This may come as a shock to you, but no system is perfect. Stop arguing that if it isn’t perfect, it isn’t valid. It just makes you look foolish.
You're making a lot of assumptions and seem to be very confident about them. I haven't really made any particular arguments here - most of my comments have been questions I think are pertinent to the issue or interesting to me.
Yes. Because there was no such thing as an “illegal immigrant” in 1868.
Bullshit.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/immigration-legislation
A few examples from the list, below:
Note that there was a reporting requirement as early as 1819.
It generally seems that way, right? Immigration was practically unregulated in the 19th century - if you got here and registered, you were in.
To me, this admission that - legal immigrants were granted citizenship - undermines the current conventional understanding of birth right citizenship. The legal portion matters.
Do you ever get sick of lying. It was explicity stated that Children with parents subject to another government are citizens of that goverment. Fuck off and die
By this perverse logic, anyone here illegally is "subject to another government" and we have no jurisdiction over them. This would sacrifice our right to deportation, which would still have to live in a society where brown people exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_citizenship_and_nationality
You guys are disgustingly dishonest and retarded.
Of note to those with a few more IQ points than Reason "Writers"/"Editors"; Arizona and New Mexico were, similarly, still territories at the time the Treaty of Paris was signed (30 yrs. after the 14A).
Also, once again in typical Reason fashion, unclear laws are unenforceable and should be repealed or, at least, get legislative clarification from Congress... unless Reason whimsically likes the specific (interpretation of the) law and/or doesn't like any given enforcement or lack thereof; then the idea of Congress legislating on the matter, as they have done before and are required to do becomes anathema.
You say territories, I say red herring.
You literally know nothing about this topic. You know even less than Root, which is a very low bar.
You're a towel.
You haven't said one intelligent thing about this.
Speak for yourself.
You do like projection there, Sarc.
Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it was a territory. Making him a natural born citizen eligible to run for President
Kamala's parents were both here on student visas, she shouldn't even be a citizen.
Student visas should have mandatory castration
“ Also, once again in typical Reason fashion, unclear laws are unenforceable and should be repealed or, at least, get legislative clarification from Congress”
If you think that the Treaty should be overruled by the Constitution, I agree. If you think a Treaty overrules the Constitution, I disagree.
Having a situation that doesn’t conform to the Constitution means that that situation is unconstitutional, not that the Constitution should be reinterpreted.
You aren’t making the point you think you’re making. Probably because you don’t want the Constitution to be the controlling document in this case.
Your support for American ideals is highly erratic when they conflict with your personal beliefs. Why is that?
Weren't you the fool who claimed only conservatives donated to ActBlue?
The 14th Amendment requires that a child be born in the US and when born, the baby must be “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. Being born on US soil isn't enough. Being subject to the jurisdiction of the US means something more than just being born here. So, we can dispense with Root's claim that anyone who is on US soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the US, within the meaning of the Amendment. Whatever the Amendment means, it can't mean that because if it did, it just would have said "born on US Soil" and dispensed with the second clause.
Root, being a malignant, dishonest, half-wit, doesn't talk about the important case that bears on the Amendment, the Slaughter House case. There, the Supreme Court stated that '[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is the Supreme Court speaking two years after the Amendment was ratified.
Two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country. That would seem to preclude the children of illegal aliens.
Wait, there is more. It is amazing what you can learn when you want to know the truth about something and are not a dishonest hack like Damon Root. Contemporaneous to the passage of the 14th Amendment, Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866. The Act stated that for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power" and that any child born in this country who with foreign parents returns to the parents' country is not a citizen. The same Congress then ratified the 14th Amendment. There is zero evidence that it repudiated the Civil Rights Act of 1866 definition of citizen when it did.
Then there is the guy who drafted the 14th Amendment, Senator Lyman Trumbull, who explained to the Congress before it voted, that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” required being “subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof,” meaning, as he put it, “not owing allegiance to anyone else.” The clause was never intended to make anyone born in the US a citizen. It was intended to keep the states from denying citizenship to freed slaves. It always contemplated denying citizenship to the children of foreign nationals, which is what an illegal alien is.
Then there is the case of Elk v. Wilkins (1884). In that case, the Court ruled that the children of Indians were not automatically citizens just because their parents had left the tribe. Understand, at that time Indians were considered citizens of foreign sovereign nations. If you were born on a reservation, you were a citizen of your tribal nation not the US. So in Elk, we have foreign citizens leaving their home sovereignty and living in the US and the court ruled their children were not citizens of the US by virtue of being born on US soil. That is about as on point as you can get. And it is still good law. And Indians were not automatically US citizens until Congress made them so by statute in the 1920s.
No country in the history of civilization ever granted citizenship to the children of transient aliens. That the US Congress suddenly decided to do that in 1867 without mentioning it in the record and contrary to both the Civil Rights Act of 1867 and the statements of the drafter of the Amendment is beyond preposterous.
Don't bother reason with the facts or law.
In the context of the Amendment the word "subject to" has a very clear meaning. It means that the law applies to you. It basically means that you can be arrested. Know who can't be arrested? Ambassadors, foreign ministers, and foreign soldiers. Know why? Because they're subject to other laws and jurisdictions. Know who can be arrested? Everyone else. That includes immigrants, both legal and illegal.
So take your mental gymnastics and shove them up your ass.
The people who drafted the Amendment and the Courts who interpreted the Amendment all disagree with you. You are just making assertions and pretending they are true. The sad fact is that you think that is convincing.
"Subject to" does not mean "subject to," "jurisdiction" does not mean "jurisdiction", and "born or naturalized" does not mean "born or naturalize."
Whatevs.
I am willing to be patient with people who are stupid and don't read well. I will happily explain something to you if you don't understand. What I am not patient with is willful stupidity. You clearly have no desire to understand anything anyone is saying. That is just pathetic and makes you beneath contempt. So, fuck off and go spew talking points to someone who cares.
I've got an idea. Why don't you lie about the author, lie about what the Amendment says, lie about what the article says, and then attack anyone who calls out your lies.
Oh wait. That's what you just did. Never mind.
And how much of the original correspondence and discussion have you read, Sarc?
None. He just makes assertions without any basis and then ignores it when I point out how courts and the guy drafted the Amendment didn't mean what he says they meant. There is no dealing with him. He is just hear to troll and screw up the discussion.
And sarc continues to use the most retarded of arguments.
Jurisdiction is what matters dumbfuck.
At any given point you're under multiple jurisdictions.
If you're a legal resident of a state, you can vote remotely for those elections, you don't get to vote in Maine because you spilled crossed the border one day.
Jurisdiction of the US means COMPLETE Jurisdiction, not just under US laws at the time of a visit.
Illegal immigrants are not under Jurisdiction of the US. Examples:
Males don't register for the draft.
They don't surve on juries.
They don't pay US taxes if working outside of the us.
They don't get legal standing at US embassies.
They don't get passports.
They can't vote.
All of this shoes They are not under Jurisdiction.
You keep choosing the most retarded of arguments due to your ignorance.
If I travel through Texas and get a speeding ticket, I don't automatically become a resident of Texas. I don't owe Texas taxes. I can't vote there.
You're such a fucking retard sarc.
“ Males don't register for the draft.
They don't surve on juries.
They don't pay US taxes if working outside of the us.
They don't get legal standing at US embassies.
They don't get passports.
They can't vote.”
Exactly zero of those things denote being under the jurisdiction of the United States. They are obligations that citizens may have, but they don’t have anything to do with being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
No one is claiming that the rights and obligations of citizenship are a prerequisite to being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except you. Because you are intellectually deficient.
“ If I travel through Texas and get a speeding ticket, I don't automatically become a resident of Texas.”
And if you have a baby in the United States, as a foreigner, you don’t become a citizen of the United States. God, you are dumb.
Thanks for the post. Again this is not a simple settled matter despite the conventional wisdom that has been accepted over the years.
No its not. By Root's logic, the children of a foreign invading Army would be US citizens if they happened to be born on US soil. That is not true and has never been true. The children of foreign diplomats serving in the US who are born here are not given US citizenship. That is by statute. According to Root that statute is contrary to the 14th Amendment. Yet, no one has ever argued it was, and no court has ever ruled such.
The worst part about this article is that it doesn't even address the contrary arguments. It is just pathetic. How can someone write something this bad?
No its not. By Root's logic, the children of a foreign invading Army would be US citizens if they happened to be born on US soil.
Nope. In fact he specifically points out that that is not the case. So you're lying.
According to Root that statute is contrary to the 14th Amendment.
Oh look. Another lie.
One of these days you Trump defenders will make an honest argument without lying about what other people say. Ha ha. I'm kidding of course. You never will. You can't.
Root never mentioned that statute or the children of foreign diplomats. Moreover, if jurisdiction means being here subject to the laws, then a child of a diplomat born in an American hospital is subject to the jurisdiction of the US by Root's definition.
Again, you are too stupid and too proud of your ignorance to engage in intelligent debate. If I were a better person, I would feel sorry for you. Since I am not, I just find you repulsive and hope you die.
Not only are you a bald-faced liar, but you've got the maturity of a thirteen year old girl.
You'll fit in very well with the rest of the Trump defenders in these comments. Turds of a feather stink together.
You are a pathetic retard. Being stupid and unable to understand the conversation doesn't make it okay to just crap all over the place with your ignorance.
You have been caught in several lies now, and your response is to go on the attack like a girl in middle school. You're like school at five in the morning. No class.
No one is lying. You haven't caught anyone. No one cares about what you have to say. Everyone laughs at you or if they are nice people feel sorry for you.
Now you're trying to hurt my feelings? Funny.
Fact is that you're a liar. And a shitty one at that because all anyone has to do is read the article to see you're lying about what it says and what the author says.
Though you do have one thing right. Your fellow Trump defenders don't care about me pointing out your lies, especially if your lies are in defense of Trump. They only care about defending Trump.
True facts.
He does include this sentence addressing the question: "The U.S-born children of invading foreign troops are likewise excluded from birthright citizenship under this original understanding, since foreign troops are subject to the laws of war, not to the laws of whatever country they are fighting in."
I'm trying to find a copy of the "Laws of War" to review. Sounds like an important and well established document.
Root knows just enough to be dangerous about that subject. Troops are not subject to the jurisdiction of the country they are in as long as they abide by the laws of war. The moment they break those laws, they lose their combatant immunity and can be treated as criminals by the host nation.
So by Root's logic, the children of an invading army would not be citizens unless that army started committing war crimes. When it did that, the children of the war criminals born there would be citizens. That is absurd.
"The worst part about this article is that it doesn't even address the contrary arguments. It is just pathetic."
Actually that's the worst thing about Reason in general. I don't mind having my assumptions challenged but you have to make a persuasive argument. All we get here is a single narrative whether it's tariffs, birthright citizenship, AEA deportations, the "failure" of Doge, election "denial", J6 or anything else Trump. It's just a wall of propaganda wholly aligned with the Koch/Soros/Leftist world view.
“ Again this is not a simple settled matter despite the conventional wisdom that has been accepted over the years.”
Really? Which SCOTUS decision has supported your position? Because the birthright citizenship concept that we’ve lived with since the 14th Amendment was ratified has been supported by SCOTUS rulings. There is one that specifically states that children of foreigners born in the US are citizens.
Do you have one that says otherwise?
Subject to the jurisdiction of the US is a very meaningful phrase. It excludes children of diplomats who are subject to the terms of the Vienna protocol (a treaty). It excludes children of invading soldiers who are subject to the laws of war. It excludes the children of Indians who were subject to the terms of a treaty.
“ So, we can dispense with Root's claim that anyone who is on US soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the US, within the meaning of the Amendment”
It isn’t “Root’s claim”. There is SCOTUS jurisprudence throughout the intervening period that supports that position. Trying to marginalize the dominant legal interpretation by pretending it’s just one guy’s opinion is dishonest.
“ Whatever the Amendment means, it can't mean that because if it did, it just would have said "born on US Soil" and dispensed with the second clause.”
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a disputation of birthright citizenship based on the position that “they didn’t say it the way I think they should have said it”. A novel approach, but a loser nonetheless.
“ Senator Lyman Trumbull, who explained to the Congress before it voted, that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” required being “subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof,” meaning, as he put it, “not owing allegiance to anyone else.””
Trumbull is popular with those who hate birthright citizenship. He also was in the minority. “This one guy said” isn’t a strong argument when “a lot of other people said” supports the opposition to your belief. Just because he was one of those who were involved in drafting the Amendment (as were numerous others who supported the present interpretation) doesn’t make him the only authority to listen to. “He didn’t agree with the majority” isn’t a valid argument when statutes are a majority-vote endeavor.
“ No country in the history of civilization ever granted citizenship to the children of transient aliens.”
The United States has. For well over a century. With numerous challenges just like yours, which your side lost. It’s worked pretty well for us, too. We’re still kicking ass as a country, despite the MAGA doomsaying and putdowns.
“ That the US Congress suddenly decided to do that in 1867 without mentioning it in the record”
They did mention it. Ignoring that truth doesn’t make it go away.
“ and the statements of the drafter of the Amendment is beyond preposterous.”
Again, one drafter. Not the drafter, just one of many. He isn’t the only one who wrote it, nor is he some Moses-like figure dispensing the only truth.
The fact that you rely on one mi orbits position by one drafter says a lot about the strength of your argument.
Plus, of course, the constant and repeated beatdowns your position has received in the entire time since the 14th Amendment was ratified. Like the Detroit Lions of old, your team is winless.
It might also be worth noting that the 14th was ratified specifically to guarantee the citizenship of freed slaves and excluded Indians who were obviously born on US soil and not naturalized. Were Indians subject to the jurisdiction of the United States? Well the federal armies herded them onto reservations so as a practical matter it seems they were. But Root is convinced that the 14th was ratified so a pregnant woman from China could someday fly into the US, give birth and then fly home with a citizen. Seems absurd to me. I personally don't have a strong opinion on either side but to claim that it's simple settled law is pretty stupid. And, sad to say, it's unlikely that the originalists on the court have ever heard of Damon Root so this is all just screaming at clouds.
Were Indians subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?
No, they were not. See the case of Elk v. Wilkins I talk about above. Just because you are here doesn't mean you are "subject to the jurisdiction" as it is used in this context.
Know why? Because they were subject to the laws of their respective Indian Nations.
That is because they were foreign nationals. Just go away.
Like children of foreigners are? Literally know someone from SK birn here who still had to register for their military if he ever wanted to go back to Korea. Lol.
Wait, dual citizenship is a thing? Who knew.
Oh, right. Everybody.
Did you just agree with Sun Wukong's main point and frame it as a gotcha? You're very sad.
Good show! Then again, let's see thim Injun Nations enforce thim...
My point was that it seems to me that the federal government exercised it's legal jurisdiction over the Indians but did not recognize them as citizens which would contravene the intent of the 14th as Root would have it.
Yes. That is exactly what happened and it is totally contrary to Root's claim. You can't square his claim with the treatment of the Indians.
And you can't square the 'total allegiance' argument with children of slaves.
The fact of the matter is, the fed govt itself has operated on the assumption children born here are automatically citizens for 100years. If it was so obvious this was wrong; you would think someone would have noticed over the intervening years.
The fact of the matter is; the argument against birthright citizenship isn't a legal argument. It's a policy argument. The policy preference of the author of the executive order and his cult of followers rejects birthright citizenship for reasons having nothing to do with legal arguments and as a shortcut to doing what they know must be done to correct the error: amend the fucking constitution. But that takes time and is difficult to accomplish. So shortcut it is. As if an executive order can change the meaning of the US Constitution in our system of government? That's not how its done. Now or ever.
to claim that it's simple settled law is pretty stupid.
Personally, the general stupidity and the outright refusal or denial of history bugs me more.
I will take a naturalized citizen, even just in good faith, born anywhere on Earth over such a native-born, de-naturalized, "The US has never had foreign nationals on its soil before", worshiper of Big Brother.
They even had deportations of children of Mexican nationals well after the 14th was passed. They were not declared citize s. Believe it was the act of 1923.
When Little Baron Trump began spewing idiocy it was obviously a smokescreen. Congessional looters were busy trying to keep libertarians, brown folks and females from ever voting again. The shrieking abt tariffs was clever baiting of communist manifesto income tax minions--so much so that I wasted a couple of days of market crash before gorging on bargain-basement nuclear energy utility stocks yielding fat dividends, much like the Baron's own insider cronies. At a carnival, it pays to notice when misdirection is fleecing the marks.
The deeper benefit Baron Trump seeks is to weaken that OTHER part of 14A that says "No person shall ... hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. GOP J6 looters who treasonously stormed the Capitol would be in prison, but Trumpanzista infiltrators backstabbed the LP candidate and handed the election to nationalsocialists, then got plenary indulgence by using Ross as stalking horse. Ross is released, and warmunist Dems jobless for being too stupid to preempt the conspiracy by being fustest with the commutation. Darwinian con artistry in action.
"while birthright citizenship would not extend to .... 'persons born in the United States who are foreigners'
EXACTLY how is that not clear? If there was such a thing as birthright-citizenship then how could anyone be "born in the United States who are foreigners"??????????
You are literally READING exactly what you pretend you aren't reading. Soooooooooooo stupid.
Yes. That’s one guy’s opinion. His opinion lost.
The very guy who WROTE/PITCHED the 14th Amendment.
Jurisdiction in this case means PERSONAL jurisdiction which is the authority your government has over you no matter where you are on the planet. For instance if you work in another country you still have to pay US income taxes. What Root is talking about is TERRITORIAL jurisdiction which means you're subject to the criminal laws of the country you're in.
The birthright citizenship question is a very good way to tell those who love the US, the Constitution, and freedom, and those who don’t. It is not possible to believe in the US as a free country with equal protection, and oppose birthright citizenship at the same time.
Pure BS. What's the purpose of the 'jurisdiction' phrase?
If it wasn't meant to create an 'AND' exemption then what's it doing there.
You literally state that playing IGNORANT to that part of the Constitution is showing LOVE for it?
"If you can't CUT-UP the Constitution to fit your BS you don't love it"???? /s
All you leftards do is scam, deceive, lie and distort everything you can in an effort to *entitle* yourselves to someone else's $, property and/or nation. Selfish, greedy, criminal scum of the earth.
Congress can end birthright citizenship under the terms of Article 5 of the 14th Amendment.
Trump has no claim, emergency or otherwise, or to arrogate that power to himself.
The legislative debate over 14A clearly establishes that there was no agreement on whether it would apply to children of foreigners. But there was agreement that formerly enslaved people was the intended and affected population. And as case law evolved in the late 19th century, Wong Kim Ark clarified that not every non-citizen was automatically "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."
But does the fact that the Congress is wholly-owned by a donor class mean that Congress is no longer available to legislate the matter? Or is this just a temporary need for a judicial fix until Congress is no longer Out-of-Service? It's all up to SCOTUS.
Here are the Countries with unconditional birthright citizenship and see if you notice a pattern.
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominica
Ecuador
El Salvador
Gambia
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
Tuvalu
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela
In this geographical region, commonly referred to as the "New World", the exceptions are the Bahamas, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Falkland Islands, French Guiana, Greenland, and Iceland don't have unconditional birthright citizenship and outside the "New World" only Gambia and Lesotho (both in Africa) have unconditional birthright citizenship. Where is the rest of the civilized world? Europe? Asia?
I tend to agree that is a new mother has a legally documented status, then their child should be granted birthright citizenship. If the mother does not have any legal documented status, then I would agree that the child should not be granted birthright citizenship unless the father is a US Citizen.
Simply crossing a border illegally to give birth should not be rewarded with citizenship and causes conflicting issues where the parents would subject to deportation, and the child would not.
When faced with deportation, should the parents choose to take their child with them or abandon their child in the US? This is a choice to be made by the parents even though the media will falsely blame Trump.
Much cleaner to reward going through the legal process and work on the fixing the ineffectual and inefficient government process to immigrate legally. The process to legally immigrate should not take longer than 60 days and should not be excessively expensive. Illegal immigration should have stiff penalties and become very unattractive and risk laden.
Essentially the carrot and the stick. As a nation-state, we deserve to know who we allow into the country. Bypassing legal entry is akin to a burglar breaking into a house versus a welcomed guest. I'm all for welcomed guests that I screen before opening the door. I really don't like it when people break into my house.
In this geographical region, commonly referred to as the "New World", If the mother does not have any legal documented status, then I would agree that the child should not be granted birthright citizenship unless the father is a US Citizen.
...
When faced with deportation, should the parents choose to take their child with them or abandon their child in the US? This is a choice to be made by the parents even though the media will falsely blame Trump.
Moreover, they will openly ignore that the list indicated failing to contain, e.g. France, Belgium, Uganda violates the 14A every inch the way they claim ending birthright citizenship has only a nebulous, at best, justification and that, in both cases, it's Congress' job (which they've been whining about an overpowered executive for [checks notes] 3 Presidencies now) to square the circle. It's not the mother/parent's fault for failing to understand laws and common human customs that have never really been unique or vague for all of recorded human history. It's not Congress' fault for passing contradictory laws that haven't been unique or common for all of human history and continually failing to clarify. It's Trump's (not even The Executive's) fault for taking decisive action in the face of any such ambiguity.
Because, the other side of your burglary analogy, they specifically want the US government to crack down on American citizens and natives, including ethnic minorities deigned deplorable by them, rather than "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" in order to "effect their Safety and Happiness".
This has long been the tactic. To disinform and wield ambiguity to their advantage and then claim non- and even anti-factual expertise as justification for their authority to deny *any* claims of ambiguity to their opponents or rivals, rather than participating in actual discussion or due process of law.
Is birth-right citizenship, as interpreted by lefties (Sarcasmic, Nelson, et al) a good idea? Does it make for a more perfect union? If so, why is it such an anomaly among civilized nations?
It seems to me, that is the real question.