Should the Civilization Video Games Be Fun—or Real?
Some players like the game to mimic the real world. Others like to play as Gandhi but nuke their enemies into oblivion.

It's 1944. The world is plunged deep into war. American troops are on the verge of crossing into German territory. The war has dragged on for years. Heavy bombers and fighter planes have regularly made incursions on Berlin. Tanks, Marines, A.T. guns, and bunker-busting assault guns stand at the ready, waiting for direction from their commander.
But their commander in chief isn't Franklin Delano Roosevelt; it's Harriet Tubman. The Germans (technically the Prussians) are led not by Adolf Hitler but by Tecumseh. The war started way back in 1882. The Japanese, Soviets, and Brits are nowhere to be found, but the Americans have found a loyal democratic ally in Charlemagne, leader of the Qing civilization.
It's just another day in Sid Meier's Civilization VII.
Since 1991, players of the Civilization video game franchise have grown empires from scratch, turn by turn, from antiquity through the present (and sometimes beyond). They build and grow cities, manage international relations and trade, and direct technological development. Wonders of the world get erected, wars devastate empires, and random events cause chaos. Eventually, someone wins the game—usually through certain scientific milestones, cultural domination, or military conquest (at which point dedicated players either keep playing in that world anyway or fire up a new playthrough from scratch).
What started as a game played on large floppy disks for MS-DOS is now a 34-year-old franchise, with the latest iteration playable after a brief download to an ordinary laptop or gaming console. There have been sci-fi and colonization spinoff games and multiple attempts to adapt the concepts as a board game. The franchise sold 70 million copies by June 2024, and players have collectively spent over a billion hours in the game. Those numbers surely surged in February 2025, with the release of Civilization VII—the first main title in the franchise since Civilization VI's release in 2016.
The challenge for gamemakers in every iteration of the game is simple, yet ambitious: to simulate how civilizations grow, change, and react over nothing less than the entire course of recorded human history.
Some players like the game to mimic the real world, playing on a real-world map with all the civilizations starting in the right locations and all their rulers acting as they might have in reality. Others like to play as Gandhi but nuke their enemies into oblivion.
You can play however you want in Civilization. Players can play against other people or against leaders simulated by the game's own artificial intelligence. The latest game allows for even more customization. Leaders are no longer tied to their real-world homelands. Players have three different civilizations over the course of a full playthrough, choosing their civilization's identity as the game progresses from the Antiquity Age to the Exploration Age to the Modern Age. Benjamin Franklin might lead Rome before leading the Normans and finally leading the Americans to ultimate victory in the final age.
Throughout the course of the franchise, a tension has persisted: Is Civilization really a simulator of world history that captures how the world grows and changes, or is it just a fun way to move troops around on a map? People don't expect the Red Dead Redemption franchise to be an accurate simulation of outlaw life, or for Grand Theft Auto to be an accurate simulation of whatever you do in Grand Theft Auto. But people do expect accuracy from sports and racing video games, and strategy games like Civilization fall closer to this end of the gaming spectrum. If players didn't expect Civilization to react realistically to their choices, it would shatter the mirage the game offers of leading your own civilization.
So, should Civilization reflect how the world works, or should it just offer fun gameplay?
Every Government Is a Good Government?
Was Benjamin Franklin an authoritarian? No, but he could be in Civilization VII.
When the world transitions into the Modern Age, players must choose what form of government they want for the rest of the game. Faced with the choice, Franklin probably would have picked an elective republic over a bureaucratic monarchy. But regardless of what leader you're playing as, if you want to go for a military victory, authoritarianism will make more sense, because it produces military units faster and gives them a combat boost (which is a little odd, considering how the two world wars went in terms of production and combat).
Government choices have always been around in the Civilization franchise, but later versions of the game allowed for more detail by having civilizations adopt different public policies. In Civilization VII, for example, adopting tariffs gives your government a boost in revenue at the expense of some unhappiness among the citizenry (though the games generally encourage international trade). Awkwardly, the policies available are largely disconnected from whatever type of government is in place. You can have an "authoritarian" government that nonetheless adopts the "Laissez-Faire" policy (which grants a revenue and happiness boost for importing resources) and the "Free Speech" policy (providing a food and happiness boost).
Complicating this further is the adoption of ideologies—that same authoritarian government could also have a democratic, communist, or fascist ideology with the gameplay advantages each one entails. Each ideology has its own civic tree: Democracy leads to liberalism leads to progressivism. (One hopes that last step is avoidable in the real world.)
There's no political accountability involved. The simulated citizenry can become unhappy, but the in-game penalties are easily managed by soothing them with luxuries. The ease with which some authoritarian policies can be implemented without any consideration of backlash is a little uncomfortable. Instituting the draft, for example, makes combat units cheaper but doesn't cause unhappiness.
Civilization is not here to say which governments are good or bad. Maybe the lack of moralizing is a good thing: Most of its players are probably well-versed in history and don't need a video game to browbeat them with lessons about history's worst immoralities. Context is available in the game's encyclopedia, or "Civilopedia," for those wanting to know more. "At times, authoritarian leaders are elected, but quickly move to invalidate or de-legitimize electoral politics in the name of order," the entry for authoritarianism in the latest game says. "Simón Bolívar, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, and others fit this model."
For the most part, there are no bad governments in the games, and no bad leaders—just ones better suited to your civilization and your goals. A democracy is just as capable of winning the game as a fascist or communist government; it all depends on how you use it. Likewise for leaders: Genghis Khan may have been a ruthless warmonger, but a civilization led by the scientist Ada Lovelace is just as capable of winning the game, provided Khan is going for a military victory and Lovelace is going for a science win. Governments adopted later in the game as a civilization progresses through science or civics provide better boosts, but choosing a government is just a matter of the player's discretion. Citizens might say they're ready for a new government, but they never rise up to demand it.
There are some moral judgments involved: Democratic civilizations have better relations with other democracies and worse relations with anyone else, communist civilizations are closer with other communist civilizations, and so on. Citizens grow weary of war. Pillaging a city can hurt international relations. But the moral judgments involved are just the game's mechanics, lines of code in an algorithm. The game doesn't try to make you feel bad for removing all traces of that other civilization from world history—those savages had it coming, didn't they?
Civilization VI gave players the option to adopt a "Corporate Libertarianism" government. Its Civilopedia entry says: "A corporate libertarian system would be one where political participation is done primarily in terms of corporate identities, with minimal coercion from the state in interactions between 'persons' in the society." (I like the use of "would" in that sentence, implying real corporate libertarianism has never been tried.) Oddly, of the government options presented in that age, it's the one to pick for anyone in need of a military boost. It also came with a penalty to your civilization's scientific development, while picking communism in an earlier age would boost scientific research. That never sat very well with me. But it might make sense in Civilization, where technological development only happens in the order the player tells it to happen.
Flight Is Right?
What initially drew me to the franchise, during the Civilization III era of the early 2000s, was the allure of choosing which technologies would be best for my civilization. Should we research the wheel, or the alphabet instead? Advancing through the detailed tech tree, from basic agriculture through nuclear weaponry, has been the most fun part of the game through all five iterations I've played. Players must weigh long-term priorities against short-term needs. Choosing to research education would help a civilization gain a technological edge with the ability to build universities, but researching military tactics so spearmen can be upgraded to pikemen would help repel invading knights just outside the city walls.
This makes for great gameplay, but it's largely not how science advanced for most of history. Scientists and inventors didn't wait for their rulers to tell them what to research. Necessity is the mother of invention, not the king. Galileo's contributions to astronomy didn't happen because an all-powerful ruler told him to research the stars; the rulers, you may recall, were not at all pleased with his findings. What if he had been forced to misdirect his efforts into some doomed endeavor? Rulers had some influence over science, to be sure, but not in Civilization's oversimplified point-and-click manner.
Consider how flight develops in the newest game. A civilization can only start research on flight after they've researched combustion (makes sense) and urbanization (why?). The player can then tell a city to direct its production toward the "transoceanic flight" project. But it wasn't the U.K. government who pushed John Alcock and Arthur Brown into the first nonstop transatlantic flight; it was a 10,000 pound prize offered by the Daily Mail, and probably a desire for fame.
Taking away the power to direct scientific research might ruin the game, though. Directing a civilization's scientific development from "What if we put pointy things on our sticks?" to "How do we get to that planet over there?" is a rewarding journey. It wouldn't be nearly as much fun to twiddle your thumbs anxiously waiting for the Wright brothers to spontaneously take flight so that your civilization can start building biplanes.
Some versions of the game take the tech tree beyond the present reality—Civilization VI includes such future technologies as seasteads, huge flood barriers, journeys to exoplanets, and Giant Death Robots. Having all of the above in the real world would be great (with one notable exception), and building up toward these technologies from scratch in the Ancient Era is always satisfying. Maybe going beyond the present was a way to keep players engaged longer, or maybe it was about offering a vision for the future and giving players a future to think about even when they're not playing the game.
Whatever it was, the future didn't make the cut in Civilization VII. The game doesn't even make it to the present. Completing the Manhattan Project ends the game with a military victory, for example, and launching the first crewed space flight earns a science victory. Giant Death Robots are nowhere to be found, though perhaps a fourth age focused on the present and future will make it into an expansion pack.
Civilization VI added a new component: a culture tree similar to the tech tree, spanning from the beginning of humanity to just beyond the present. Cultural buildings (amphitheaters, museums, and broadcast centers) and great people (writers, artists, and musicians) push civilizations through progressions known as "civics," which vary from military training to divine right to natural history. Cultural innovations have indeed led to civic progress in the real world—but not when an all-powerful ruler told creators what to develop. Just as scientific developments often upset the established order and the ruling elites, cultural landmarks often stood out when they called for change and more liberty.
Discover a new tech or a new civic in Civilization, and a narrator will read you a relevant quote. (Leonard Nimoy narrated Civilization IV. It was awesome.) Unlock the capitalism civic in Civilization VII, and you'll hear a certain Adam Smith line involving a butcher, brewer, and baker acting in their self-interest. But no one told Smith to go invent capitalism. He just observed how markets were working all around him in his daily life.
There's a lot the game gets right about how the world works, and a lot that it gets wrong for the sake of gameplay. Thinking about the difference makes playing even more fun.
The Most Important Resource
Frequent players have a couple of quibbles with how the typical Civilization playthrough goes.
Usually a couple of civilizations will get an early advantage in size (perhaps due to conquest) and turn that into a scientific advantage, and then the other civilizations spend the rest of the game struggling to catch up. The early movers win by focusing on science and making their way to the stars while other civilizations are still figuring out trains—or the early movers just use superior military technology to conquer the opposition. (That takes longer, but it's more fun.) It's often clear halfway through the game who the victor will be, turning the game into a tedious time suck until the eventuality is confirmed. Civilization VI partially handled this problem with a system of punishing or rewarding civilizations with Dark Ages or Golden Ages.
Another problem is the game's AI, which manages rival civilizations during single-player games, but does not necessarily aim for a specific victory condition. A human player with a coherent strategy can surpass the seemingly aimless AI civilizations.
The new game takes a more heavy-handed approach to reeling in the advantage of early growth. When the world transitions into the Exploration Age and later into the Modern Age, some of the established order is wiped clean. Most cities are downgraded into towns. The number of military units falls to a minimum. Relationships with other leaders are largely reset. Everyone starts the new tech and civic trees from the same point. Success in the prior age bestows a few advantages, but the idea is for everyone to start the sprint toward victory on equal footing.
Yet a big civilization is still a winning civilization. More land means more resources means more advantages. While in the past certain resources were required for certain military units or you were out of luck (no aluminum, no jet bombers), now critical resources just bestow a combat bonus to certain units.
To get that land, you'll need people. The more people you have, the faster you'll research technologies and develop civics, the faster your cities will produce buildings and military units, the more your income will grow, and the more land they'll take up and resources they'll claim.
That's the most important thing that Civilization gets right, and has always gotten right through three decades and seven iterations: Human beings are the most important resource of all.
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What started as a game played on large floppy disks for MS-DOS is now a 34-year-old franchise,
Tell me you're a child without just saying it.
Seriously, this kid is probably 30. If he was even alive when Civilization came out, he certainly wasn't old enough to use a computer.
No DOS machine used the large floppy disks, they'd long since been replaced by 5.25s before the first PC came out. By the end of the 80s, nobody used those, either, as 3.25" floppies were pretty much standard fare.
You did still see the big, 8" floppies in some garbage also-ran systems like the Acorn in the early 80s, but never for PCs.
As for the article headline premise? Who gives a shit? It's a video game. Play it and have fun. Or don't. Do what you want.
The FAA is still using floppy disks to manage the air traffic in the US, and the IRS computers are just as bad. So, yeah....
And cut the author some slack. a 5.25" floppy is still larger than a 3.25" one. I still have both for my Apple ][+ and original Mac. The 3.25" floppies on the Mac were only one-sided at the time. Same for the 5.25" ones. We used to take a hole punch and make a notch on the other side of the disk so we could flip it over and use the other side. Ah, good times...
Somewhere in my junk closet I have a Texas Instruments magneDISC, about 20" diameter, circa 1957. Developed for recording geophysical data, I guess real nerds probably had some fun using them for sending secret messages.
I used to have some old hard disks (1MB, which was huge) for a PDP-11 system from the 1970s. Good times....
And cut the author some slack. a 5.25" floppy is still larger than a 3.25" one.
I was thinking the same thing.
"I was thinking"
Remarkable. This calls for champagne.
He proves down below he wasnt.
I doubt Sarc knows the meaning of the word “thinking”.
No DOS machine used the large floppy disks, they'd long since been replaced by 5.25s before the first PC came out. By the end of the 80s, nobody used those, either, as 3.25" floppies were pretty much standard fare.
Generally true. Also, as you probably recall, you didn't play the game on the disks. Read(/write) was too slow. That's why video game systems went with cartridges. Some smaller games loaded level or scene-specific information from the disk before each level but, for larger games you wrote the whole thing to the HDD and ran it from there. Occasionally, disks contained write-protected software keys to "ensure" you had actually purchased a copy of the game, but even those simple checks were really obvious, slow, and (sometimes literally) clunky by today's standards.
As for the article premise; we're libertarians and this is software, it can be both and more, quit trying to run the world.
Occasionally, disks contained write-protected software keys to "ensure" you had actually purchased a copy of the game, but even those simple checks were really obvious, slow, and (sometimes literally) clunky by today's standards.
That is, even relatively young kids *today* understand when their game is stored or played "on a CD" vs. in the cloud vs. local save files and profiles; and when they're just effectively buying software keys and extension packs, mods, and DLCs.
Yet another one of those "Lizard Person" or "Inhuman creature from the Phantom Zone" hallucinatory situations where the journalist is, seemingly, simultaneously unaware of history *and* the modern day's attachment to it. "Back in the day when Cardinals declared they would raw dog Conclaves and gamers had to run 9 separate disk drives to play King's Quest IV."
"...you didn't play the game on the disks."
Wut? Of course you did. When the Apple ][ introduced their floppy drive, playing games on disks was common. So was waiting 15 seconds for a read/write to do screen animation or anything else. When you had only 48K of memory and the screen bitmap was also in that memory, regular read/writes were a normal thing.
Lest we forget the game Time Zone (1982) that had 6 double-sided disks you had to swap out. Also, Wizardry I had a startup and game disks.
Console games were ROMs. We use to take the ROMs and burn them using an EPROM burner to copy them. Most of that stuff was written for the Z-80 processor, which was the common CPU in nearly all arcade games at the time.
Wut? Of course you did. When the Apple ][ introduced their floppy drive, playing games on disks was common.
Your Apple "][" came with MS-DOS out of the box?
By the late 80s, as indicated in the link, games were specifying how much RAM, hard drive, and even swap space they required. As indicated, a few still loaded background images and textures from disk between levels or scenes but, overwhelmingly, only CD titles, where the capacity of the disk was intermittently larger than the size of system memory, would load on/from disk in the middle of play (and, iteratively/again, the game makers frequently specified that for optimal play you should have more RAM and/or HDD). The King's Quest set I linked specified 512K of RAM, which is ~75% of the space on anything except the double-sided 3.5s and more than twice as fast. Freeware and
Shareware, that you were expected to copy and pass on, was already rampant and the disk keys I mentioned *could* frequently be ejected and shared mid-play as long as certain progress, checkpoints, or operations weren't performed.
Console games were ROMs.
Right because even in equivalent physical media read only from fixed memory is faster than read/write and that's on top of the fact that, before the time MS-DOS rolled around, chips and CPUs were already capable of reading and writing faster than the disks could spin. Thus device drivers, blocks, interrupts, and Operating Systems.
Dude, it's an Apple. No, it did not come with MS-DOS. It came with Apple's DOS 3.3, a very good upgrade to the Apple DOS 3.2 variant that came before it. Steve Wozniak wrote Apple DOS.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I was there. I regularly used Locksmith or NibblesAway to prolifically pirate software. D5 AA 96, you probably don't recognize those bytes and how important they were at the time. And you probably have no idea what they really stood for.
CDs were a 1990s thing, more towards the mid-1990s. You again have no idea what you're talking about.
I learned 6502 assembler on an Apple ][. Do you know what 3D0G does in 6502 assembler? I do. Do you know what the zero page is?
You are way out of your league here. Best for you to step back quietly.
to prolifically pirate software.
LOL, when I was a kid a friend and I used to DL software from various BBSs. Took all damned night, but we were children, we had all night to do it.
I remember getting Choplifter before it officially released on the Commodore. Had to be... 1983? I don't remember. I do remember I got it froma guy called himself Smorgy. His BBS was Smorgy's Board.
Good times.
You are way out of your league here. Best for you to step back quietly.
Or else what, you'll call me a horse-faced pony soldier?
So, you bought a commercially produced, off-the-shelf version of Civilizations for *any* Apple computer and played it, without modification, on *any* Apple computer? Yes or no?
Are you further going to lecture me that the read/write speed from floppy is faster than the ROM chips? That the disks can spin faster than the electrons move through the semiconductors that operate them? Am I wrong there too? Yes or no?
Even at that, I've been pretty explicit that I'm talking about the late 80s, which would be a decade after the Apple "][" model was discontinued. The fact that you keep bringing it up despite the fact that I have already linked a game (from the same manufacturer at the same time period) that specifies the HDD as a requirement, and could link dozens more (including Civilizations) makes it seem like you're shouting "6502 Assembler" at the clouds.
So, go ahead, regale us all with the tale of how you out-hacked Cornpop with his BBC Micro, since you can seem to be bothered with the time, space, and facts relevant to any discussion anyone else is having.
I am going to lecture you on things that were done way before you were born. Yes, absolutely.
Keep deflecting from your abhorrent ignorance, you moronic twat.
You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. You are way too young to even understand it.
Yeah, you have "links". I actually have the 5.25" floppies and the Apple ][+ in my basement to prove how stupid and ignorant you are.
This is my lived experience, you dolt. I could give a shit what links you come up with. I was there, you CLEARLY were NOT.
I was phreaking back when it was cool. I was jealous of the guy in town with a Crackshot card. And I still have a good amount of pirated software that I spent time boot tracing (you have no idea that the hell that even means) to crack.
The Apple ][+ was followed by the Apple //c and Apple //e as well as other models that used the same DOS and CPU family. You cannot keep up with reality by doing Google searches to try to look smart.
Stop or else I will enjoy continuing this defection on your ignorance.
Dude, it's an Apple. No, it did not come with MS-DOS.
Right. Technically, any operating system that spins up 8" disks is a "Disk Operating System". But, when Russell specifically says, MS-DOS in a game written for MS-DOS and Stuck in California, euphemistically says, "DOS" it's a safe assumption he doesn't mean "Any system that operates a disk" *and* a poor that "any system that operates a disk" will spin up and run Civilizations
As for the rest of it, here you go from the manual:
Civilizations can only be run from a hard disk, and requires approximately 8 megabytes of free space.
The. game. did. not. "play on floppy disks".
You. Are. Fucking. Stupid. And. Out. Of. Your. League. Junior.
You're way better at throwing out buzzwords without providing anything of substance, even tangentially, to back up anything you say, let alone refute the facts and independent evidence I've presented.
The funniest part is, I'm not even refuting what you're saying. I don't doubt you own an Apple "][". I don't doubt that it ran off floppy disks. I never claimed otherwise. But you continue to pose and jerk yourself off without actually refuting what I said. It's like having a discussion De Oppresso Liber.
Apples had to have the game on floppy. There was no hard disk for the most part. But it was a long way from 1982 to 1992.
Karateka on the Apple II (or maybe it was the other game I had) even had the data written on the floppy in a pattern so the head seek made a pattern, like zzzt zt zt zzzt zt zt zzt zzt zzzzt zt zt to sound like a military snare drum right before the level was done loading.
Karateka was postcardware (where the author wanted a postcard for the keys to unlock the game), and was a great game at the time. I think that was late 1980s, early 1990s.
I played Ultima IV on an 8086- no hard drive, no EGA- just the green and black CRT monitor. It was played on 4 discs, and you had to swap them out. Alternatively, the PC had 2 disc drives, so usually you could have the game discs in a: and you could put a save-game disc in b:.
Not sure what your link is trying to prove, those are 5.25" discs. Definitely not the large ones, which were 8" in diameter for the most common size.
I never saw, and seriously doubt, any DOS based machine ever used the large ones. It'd be fun to see one that did. Well "fun" in the nerd sense at least.
I never saw, and seriously doubt, any DOS based machine ever used the large ones. It'd be fun to see one that did. Well "fun" in the nerd sense at least.
Generally true = generally agree. My additional point, and the link, reinforcing yours; even with the 5.25" and 3.5" disks were meant to be written partially, if not entirely, to an HDD and run from there. Games didn't generally "run on" 5.25 or 3.5" floppies, let alone 8", the way they ran on cartridges or later would "run on" CD(-ROM)s.
If you told me that somebody out there somewhere made an MS-DOS box that would read-write from 8" floppies, I'd believe it. However, again agreeing with your point, they didn't do it to any sort of commercial success and they likely couldn't because even at the time games and programs were being pushed onto local, "fixed" storage media rather than being run strictly from floppies.
Maybe it's a then vs. now *and* colloquial thing but considering that sometimes the operating system itself was loaded from disk (and *that* disk ejected), anybody at the time saying a game "ran on" a disk they specifically meant the disk had to be inserted constantly or continuously, or nearly so, (like a ROM) in order to support game play.
a game "ran on" a disk they specifically meant the disk had to be inserted constantly or continuously, or nearly so, (like a ROM) in order to support game play.
Otherwise, like with the OS, the disk could be ejected and the game "ran on" the HDD (which was, increasingly frequently and with almost certainty towards the 90s, faster than the floppy).
Some games could be "run on" disk, but most weren't. The disk was largely just the medium by which the files were transferred.
You have no goddamn idea what the hell you are taking about. Stop now or I will lambaste the shit out of you.
I'm staying out of it.
And, just for an appeal to authority, I wrote my first code on an Apple IIE and used to play Oil Tycoon on a TRS80. I was actually working in the video game industry when Civilization came out. I'm being a pedantic prick, but I did actually know one or two things about the machines and games of the day. Though the day was 30-40 years ago. Ugh.
I'm staying out of it.
You said it right here:
Apples had to have the game on floppy. There was no hard disk for the most part. But it was a long way from 1982 to 1992.
шинка is, AFAICT, between sperg dunking and shouting at clouds about he did things in the 1970s as proof of how things were done elsewhere or more broadly in the late 80s/early 90s.
No, dipshit, this is the 1980s. I was also around in the 1990s. Yeah, I was in college in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Still very much involved in technology and made a very lucrative career doing desktop publishing on Macs.
When Apple introduced the Mac SE with a SCSI port, we began to see hard drives being adopted in 1987. I met with and discussed hard drives with the owner of GCC, which at the time sold the only external hard drives for Macs in a 20MB, 40MB, and the huge 80MB version. All were upright drives that were connected via SCSI. I also had the privilege of working for Radius Computer at MacWorld Boston in 1988 hawking their monitors to attendees.
Again, you have no fucking idea what you are talking about because you weren't even born! Your ignorance is grossly apparent, junior. So you should probably shut the fuck up now, or I'll continue to lambaste you for being ignorant.
Stop talking about shit you don't know anything about.
Again, you have no fucking idea what you are talking about because you weren't even born!
Why would anyone believe you? Because you (maybe) owned an Apple "]["?
You have no idea when I was born and it's pretty obvious to anyone still paying attention that there's no reason why you would. So, if you're posing as to how old I am, why would they assume you aren't all flourishes and handwaves about the other shit you're spouting. Especially after I've provided independent evidence from the manuals affirming what I asserted?
Again, the blustery name calling and buzzword posing smacks of DOL-esque stolen valor; continuously spouting self-aggrandizing and irrelevant bullshit until, eventually, it's piled so high and deep he can't keep it consistent with itself or reality. I never claimed to be any sort of tech wizard. I *was* alive and playing games on computers in the early 80s. I don't consider that to be in any way exceptional.
I wish I could say I'm sorry that 30-40 yrs. later you're still butthurt that your Apple "][" didn't have a hard drive like lots of other computers in the late 80s did. I wish I could say I'm sorry that, apparently, you didn't read the fucking manual. But, really, it's not my fault and, even if it were, I just don't care. If you've got a problem with people thinking that Civilizations can *only* be run from a hard disk with 8MB of space, you need to take that up with MicroProse. I'm simply stating the facts as they were stated to me and everyone around me who bought and played games. Maybe you and Jack Russell *both* played ported copies of Civilizations on two separate Apple "]["es but, given all the extraneous jingo, bluster, and obvious (and irrelevant and unnecessary) wild-ass guessing, it seems increasingly unlikely.
No shade on you. But the twat mad.casual is an ignorant slut.
Most people colloquially saw 5.24" as "large" and the 3.5" as "small" floppies. Certainly people who had been in the game since the early 80's still distinguished between 8" discs, but when PCs really began to proliferate in the late 80s 8" wasn't around and so most people were distinguishing between the two. (And many people often called 3.5" floppies "Hard Discs" because of its thicker shell.)
I still have my Civ I disks, and they're 3.25" floppies. (Which, for those of us old enough to remember, weren't actually that floppy, unlike the 80s 5.25s)
I'll confess, i never saw an 8" floppy, but I never saw anyone who owned an Acorn either.
As someone who was born in the mid 80s . . . 5.25s were still very much in use in schools through the mid 90s. I seem to remember about 97-98 as being the time when it was only 3.25s.
And by "large floppy disks" I thought the author was referring to 5.25s . . . but what do I know.
"Democracy leads to liberalism leads to progressivism. (One hopes that last step is avoidable in the real world.)"
Sorry, kid.
In the real world we've been there and done that.
Are we up to the authoritarian and killing fields steps yet?
The latest Columbia arrests were 80% women. The left is doing a good job of replicating Maos revolution.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy.
Orwell
Fuckin’ broads!
No matter what the religion, Marxism, paganism or Christianity, women have always been the strongest adherents.
I'm not sure why.
Cuz 500,000 year ago guys had fun bashing each other over the heads with rocks and sticks, and then getting drunk on fermented berries. Meanwhile, the women all sat around in the cave, playing character assassination games on each other, and plotting how to control the men.
They embrace the group think. It is more important to agree and be liked by the other women in the group then it is to go against the crowd.
Peterson puts a pretty plausible explanation out there: Women exist(ed) as vessels for other lives. Their minds have been geared to tend to or even sacrifice to the wants, needs, and conceptualizations outside their own (as opposed to more strictly focusing on the narrow objectivity of "Throw spear. Hit prey"). If they didn't, their genes didn't propagate.
Ask Ashli Babbitt - - - - - - -
Leads to invading federal facilities and claiming to be politically targeted just years after targeting your political opponents.
>While in the past certain resources were required for certain military units or you were out of luck (no aluminum, no jet bombers),
Just another reason why the current version sucks. Civ VI wasn't great either.
Civ V was the last good version. Civ VI felt like I was trapped in a cartoon world with crap mechanics. I'm not even going to consider Civ VII because it's probably just more lipstick on a pig.
I tend to follow the Star Trek rule: the even series are really the only ones worth getting. V was very annoying to me, but IV was a masterpiece, that I still play today. VI was okay after several expansions.
The real problem with Civilization was that they decided they didn't want it to be a military game, and so tried creating a bunch of bogus victory conditions that didn't represent real power. Yes, the Space Victory was always there, but it was usually an after thought. In Civ IV, you still needed a large, militarily powerful civilization to go for the alternate victories. By Civ V, you could win with a single large city. It was so a-historical as to be silly.
'Some players like the game to mimic the real world, playing on a real-world map with all the civilizations starting in the right locations and all their rulers acting as they might have in reality. Others like to play as Gandhi but nuke their enemies into oblivion.'
So, these players have child-like understanding of history, economics, politics, warfare, and philosophy. How is that different from most voters and politicians in our "real" world?
Agree. The mashup of events and players as described is probably how many people think history happened .
Gandi has always been the one who threatens me with nukes the most.
Galileo's contributions to astronomy didn't happen because an all-powerful ruler told him to research the stars; the rulers, you may recall, were not at all pleased with his findings.
If Galileo didn't have patrons - Cosimo de Medici and the very Pope Urban VIII who was his patron at the time Galileo wrote his book and the Pope who then submitted it to the Inquisition - Galileo would have never been anything.
The reality is that that Pope did not object to heliocentrism so much as he objected to Galileo using a fictional plot device to put theological arguments into the voice of Simplicio (a straw man representing geocentrism). For similar reasons that a Pope would not commission a painting of Jesus in Urine as a way to make an argument about a calendar.
Catholics weren’t originally against heliocentrism. Copernicus’s research and his book De revolutionibus were actually sponsored by a pope.
The Galileo affair had more to do with personal insults than with heresy.
Pope Urban VIII was a polymath and a longtime friend of Galileo. He had even asked Galileo to present arguments both for and against heliocentrism.
Urban had argued before in support for the Aristotelian view, based on the assumption that the planets orbits were circular, which worked a tiny bit better maths-wise than heliocentrism with circular orbits. At the time nobody really thought that the orbits would actually be elliptical rather than circular.
For reasons known only to himself, Galileo created a buffoonish character named Simplicio (essentially “Retard”), who parroted Urban's arguments word for word. This went over about as well as you can imagine.
At the time, Urban was already under pressure. He had been accused of not being a Catholic or Christian (not entirely inaccurate), had recently been betrayed by political allies, and had survived several assassination attempts. Needless to say, he wasn’t in the mood to be publicly mocked.
Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy,” but never formally charged with heresy itself—in order to keep execution off the table. He was sentenced to imprisonment, but that was reduced to house arrest the next day. House arrest meant he couldn’t leave the region, but he still had freedom of movement for the city and surrounding countryside. He changed residences a few times and continued to write, producing works like Two New Sciences on kinematics and material strength. When he died, the Grand Duke of Tuscany had him buried in the beautiful Basilica of Santa Croce in Florence.
Protestants, of course, were thrilled by the whole episode and used it to paint Catholicism as anti-science. They embraced heliocentrism wholeheartedly and just fifty years later, Newton—who was far more religious than Urban—published Principia and brought the scientific revolution into full force.
It was also largely a scientific disagreement between the church and Galileo. The church didn't see distance move between stars, so they assumed due to no observable parallax that the stars were stationary. They didn't comprehend the vast distances required.
As a person of nominal Lutheran background I don't like calling it "the church" (Papist anti-christs, etc.) but I know what you mean.
Up until that point though the Roman Catholic church really hadn't picked a side and was agnostic on an Aristotelian vs Copernican universe. Once they did the mainstream Protestants went harder for heliocentrism than the Catholics for geocentrism just to be different.
Exactly. The whole affair was political and had little to do with science. Galileo picked the wrong time to piss off the wrong Pope, and it bit him in the ass.
There was also that Galileo had also insulted most every other astronomer in Christendom as well. Galileo's trial was as a example of the scientific consensus seeking to suppress someone challenging the working paradigm as anything else. In part for the defensible reason that heliocentric theory did not predict planetary motion well. Less so, that it was calling most astronomer's side hustle as astrologers into question.
What was provable at the time about Galileo's findings at the time was that there were phenomena in the sky that geocentric theory could not account for. The more far reaching conclusions he proposed were not justified by the probable evidence.
GOP enters effort to stop Giant Mosque Center near Dallas
Department of Justice announces investigation of Muslim EPIC City
https://www.keranews.org/news/2025-05-09/department-of-justice-announces-investigation-of-epic-city
Isn't this what you MAGA-Tards call "lawfare"?
EPIC City is a proposed 402-acre development associated with the East Plano Islamic Center mosque. It would be roughly 40 miles northeast of Dallas near the city of Josephine. The mixed-use development would include a new mosque, more than 1,000 single- and multi-family homes, a K-12 faith-based school, senior housing, an outreach center, commercial developments, sports facilities, and a community college.
"Dream Mosque" for Texans!
You mean the city where the officials stated on their site that it would limit home sales to Muslims only? That one?
Yasir Qadhi, a resident scholar at the East Plano Islamic Center and one of the people involved in the project planning, told KERA in an interview last year EPIC City is not exclusive to Muslim residents.
Must be a different one. There are over 300 mosques in Texas.
I'm conflicted. I despise Islam but our Constitution is clearly on the side of religious freedom.
Maybe Texans are really into Allah. I haven't been there in a long time.
Remember when you managed to get your original account permabanned due to posting CP here?
I'm quoting what their site said.
Take up your issues with them.
Isn't this what you MAGA-Tards call "lawfare"?
Lawfare is applying any law to Trump or any of his minions. If someone with a MAGA hat gets a speeding ticket, that's lawfare. If MAGAs face penalties for trying to stop the certification of the election by storming the Capital, that's lawfare. If Trump deliberately misinterprets the law and a judge calls him out on it, that's lawfare.
If any of those things happen to Democrats, that's justice.
So the definition of lawfare is based solely upon who, not what, because his defenders have no principles other than Trump, Trump, Trump.
It is amazing how intentionally retarded you and shrike are. And it is intentional at this point.
The mayor entered federal property pushing through federal agents to stop. Anyone doing so is subject to federal trespass.
You and shrike defended the manipulation of laws to target Trump and his lawyers using novel legal construction no other person has ever been targeted with.
You know this. But you're such a leftist shill at this point you pretend to not understand the difference.
Even given that you were demanding nobody is above the law, except hunter and Joe. Here you refuse to say the mayor violated clearly established law.
Also according to you and Jeff the mayor should have been shot in the face.
You and shrike are the ones with zero principles other than decend the left at all costs no matter how retarded your rationalization is.
Mayor? I don't even know what you are talking about.
My issue is that Donnie was his guilt in aiding and abetting the overthow of the election and the ensuing insurrection on Jan 6.
The dumbasses in DOJ bungled it. They had four years.
You were banned for posting a link to child porn.
If he did --- why did Biden never even attempt to prosecute him for it? He had zero issues with political prosecutions.
He did.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Special counsel Jack Smith said his team “stood up for the rule of law” as it investigated President-elect Donald Trump’s efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, writing in a much-anticipated report released Tuesday that he stands fully behind his decision to bring criminal charges that he believes would have resulted in a conviction had voters not returned Trump to the White House.
They fucked around too long.
Jack Smith did not qualify to be a special prosecutor in the first place. And he had absolutely nothing to go with.
They did not fuck around too long.
They. Had. Nothing. To. Go. On.
Bullshit.
But it could have been OJ-ed. Get the right jury for an acquital. Might have been tough in DC though.
There was nothing. Unlike you and your child porn.
I see where Mike Pence got the Profiles in Courage Award for standing up to the traitorous Trump-Tards.
Pence respects the Constitution unlike Trump.
Pence sucks up to the side of the Kennedys who stand up for drug addicts and men who leave women to die in their cars.
"Mike Pence got the Profiles in Courage Award"
Democrats rewarding their pet deep-stater for obstructionism isn't the flex you think it is.
And here is the body cam video. Shrike will lie about this. Shrike, dare you to do what these dem politicians did at your local fed building or jail.
https://x.com/BillMelugin_/status/1921217033825644967
I almost wonder what lies the obsessed loser behind the grey box is telling today. More than likely it's listing off a bunch of things I never said nor did, possibly with some linkless quotes that were deliberately misinterpreted and taken out of context. Before long the other losers behind grey boxes will chime in, and I will continue to not give a fuck.
Something about a mayor.
So a non sequitur.
I think so.
The mayor entered federal property pushing through federal agents to stop. Anyone doing so is subject to federal trespass.
Makes no sense to me.
Typical Jesse.
"Sarckles: So a non sequitur
Shrike: I think so."
So Buttplug doesn't know what 'non sequitur' means either.
Another word you don't know it seems as i directly addressed your comment.
Can you please buy a fucking dictionary?
I think he spends any money he gets his hands on, on Colt 45.
You have nobody muted.
What lies did I state sarc?
Did you repeat anything Sarc wrote? Those are usually lies.
I actually didn't this time. But I can when he denies it. Those of course will be edited lies despite posting the entire comment word for word.
They're games. Pretty sure fun is expected.
And, man, I HATE the changes Civ VII has. No longer one long game but, instead, three smaller ones? Ugh.
OK, so here's how I always played Civilization. (Yes, the original.)
Pick any random starting civ, but one with neighbors helps (so, avoid like the Aztecs or the Zulus). Speed through the tech tree to get far more advanced than any neighbors. Literally, very little else. No road-building, no irrigation, keep the settlements relatively close, and build up a largely defensive army.
And then NEVER EVER EVER, under ANY circumstances, SHARE the tech. No diplomacy. No trades. No peace brokering. And enough strength that they don't pose a threat of conquest or sabotage. And then let them exist as primitive societies. You never need spies (because they have nothing worth stealing). So, by the time they're figuring out literacy, you're crossing the oceans (obtaining Magnetism and getting across the oceans is key, because you've got to establish a foothold and then keep the civilizations on other continents stunted as well). The goal was to get to Industrialization before anyone else - and then NEVER LET ANYONE ELSE GET THERE.
In the meantime, as NPCs, they'll do stuff like build roads and irrigation and so forth. And if you ever see an enemy ship capable of ocean-crossing, that's the time to exterminate their civilization. They'll whine for peace and mercy. Deny it. And then you can take advantage of all the roads and irrigation they built for you in the various cities you conquered.
Eventually you get to a point where there's only one civilization left besides yours, with only one city, a minimum population, and an impotent army - so you can really keep it under your thumb. Allow them to exist solely so the game doesn't end and you can head off to Alpha Centauri.
Yea, Civ was always fun. Also fun if you knew a thing or two about computers, because you could go into its files and edit some stuff for hilarious effect (like character dialog and newspaper headlines and stuff). I used to do that and then invite friends over to play, and laugh at how the game would talk to them by name lol.
Anyway, to answer the question - they should be fun. Nobody wants a game where Islam, for example, is allowed to come to power. They want to the freedom-of-action to strangle Mohammed in his crib.
Nobody wants a game where Islam, for example, is allowed to come to power.
[tilts hand] Mm... nobody wants a game where you can't escape Sharia Law. Wolfenstein made recurring truckloads of money with the Nazis in power.
Somewhat akin to your play of Civilizations, a version of Populous where you wind up annihilating (or losing to) Islam at The Rapture/Jihad could be fun.
Well, fair point. Can't say I didn't enjoy gunning down RoboHitler.
How long before Reason tells us that it's wrong that Trump is allowing South African to emigrate to the US?
How about not fun and not real?
What if the game is not historical and not fun?
That's called assassins creed shadows