Their Kids Said They Were Trans. Then CPS Came Knocking.
Across the country, parents of gender-dysphoric kids are confronting state intrusion.

Morgan Davis started this job because he wanted to protect kids.
The 52-year-old had been an investigator with the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) for less than a year and had come out as a transgender man shortly before starting his new job. Then Texas Gov. Greg Abbott issued an order demanding the department investigate parents of medically transitioning transgender children for abuse.
A "number of so-called 'sex change' procedures constitute child abuse under existing Texas law," Abbott declared in the February 2022 letter, which he sent a week before the Republican gubernatorial primary. Because DFPS "is responsible for protecting children from abuse," he continued, " I hereby direct your agency to conduct a prompt and thorough investigation of any reported instances of these abusive procedures in the State of Texas."
At first, the directive seemed hard to believe, especially since medical transition for minors—interventions such as puberty-blocking medication, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries—were legal in Texas. Texas legislators would eventually ban medical transition for minors, but that was more than a year in the future.
"Everybody thought this was a political stunt," Davis says. Within a day, Davis' department already had a case. According to Davis, it originated with a DFPS employee with a transgender child who was forced to report on her own family.
"The first thing I knew about the case was that it was a co-worker," Davis says. "I just couldn't believe it. Most of us get into [this line of work] because you wanted to be the protection that you didn't have. And here we were." Davis ended up investigating the family himself. "If somebody had to do it, I wanted it to be me," he says, because "I really thought at the time I could protect the family—but also if there was any abuse that was happening, I would know."
On the day of his home visit, Davis says, he tried to be as nonthreatening as possible. "I had my nicest bowtie on," he says, "and I brought pastries, to try to make it look like I was just showing up for a visit." But he was still self-conscious: He was an agent of the state, after all, one with the power to separate a family or keep it together in the name of child protection. "At the end of the day," Davis says, "it doesn't matter how trans or how nice [I was]. At the end of the day, I was an investigator."
Accustomed to deeply dysfunctional families, often living in chaotic, poorly maintained homes, Davis was struck by how normal and harmonious this family seemed. To his relief, the family had consulted with lawyers. An attorney sat in on Davis' interview with the child, a transgender girl around 15 years old. The family also refused to sign a form releasing their child's medical records—a move that further protected them from state prying.

It was hard not to feel frustrated by the situation. Davis had found a functional, loving family whose only error—in the eyes of the state of Texas—was that the parents had sought and received controversial but legal treatments for their child.
Davis says the home visit concluded without incident and the case seemed like a "slam dunk." But his supervisors told him he could not close the case, that it needed to be sent "up the food chain."
"I called my buddy and I said, 'I can't make this stop. I'm not going to be able to make this stop,'" Davis says. "It sounds dramatic, but I really did: I walked in an investigator, and I walked out an activist."
Since the state was investigating parents for legal behavior, lawsuits swiftly followed. One was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) on behalf of the LGBTQ+ group PFLAG and several families.
"Governor Abbott's directive unduly interferes with the state Legislature's sole authority to establish criminal offenses and penalties," said the June 2022 petition in PFLAG v. Abbott. "The Abbott Letter outright claims that 'a number of so-called "sex change" procedures constitute child abuse under existing Texas law,' despite the fact that the Legislature has failed to pass" legislation to that effect.
It's not clear exactly how many people DFPS investigated as a result of Abbott's order. But six families ultimately joined two ACLU-backed lawsuits challenging the new policy.
The plaintiffs described nerve-racking home visits and investigations that dragged on despite turning up no evidence of abuse or neglect. One parent, identified as "Samantha Poe," said Child Protective Services (CPS), a division of DFPS, continued investigating her family even after receiving a letter from her 13-year-old gender-questioning child's psychiatrist confirming that the teenager, Whitley, was not receiving any medical transition treatments.
"Without my prior knowledge, a CPS investigator contacted a teacher at Whitley's middle school to ask about Whitley," Poe said in a written declaration submitted with the PFLAG v. Abbott lawsuit. "The teacher told me they were contacted and that they told the investigator Whitley is well cared for and Whitley's every need is being met. They also shared that they told the investigator that they had called CPS about other students they suspected were suffering from abuse at home, but received no response."
These probes were part of something much larger. During the last decade, a full-blown gender war has erupted in America. While much of the controversy relates to transgender adults, a particularly fraught element of the debate focuses on gender-dysphoric kids. The question of what exactly to do when children say they're transgender should be dominated by rigorous science and parental judgment. Instead, it has been clouded by politics.
In recent years, state-run medical agencies in such countries as Sweden, Norway, and Great Britain have recommended restricting medical transitions for minors, arguing that the risks outweigh the potential benefits. Twenty-four U.S. states have passed laws banning gender transition treatments for minors, and two others—New Hampshire and Arizona—have banned surgical procedures while keeping other treatments legal. While doctors suspicious of these treatments stress the lack of strong evidence supporting their efficacy, other physicians argue there is plenty of evidence that they work, often claiming that the controversy is driven by transphobia rather than legitimate medical concerns.
In Texas, the state responded to the dispute by siccing CPS on parents. Meanwhile, parents in several Democratic-controlled states say they have faced CPS investigations for resisting their children's medical or social transition.
When the state intervenes because officials dislike how parents are choosing to handle a child's gender dysphoria, that does not protect vulnerable kids. It shifts decisions on a difficult issue from parents—the people who know the children best and love them most—to impersonal, often politically motivated bureaucrats. What to do about childhood gender dysphoria is a live question, and a difficult one. But it's a question the state is ill-equipped to answer for individual families.
'We Need To Be Very Cautious'
"I think there should be a very thorough evaluation of every child, young person," says Erica Anderson, a clinical psychologist and former president of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health (USPATH). "I've been for a long time now urging caution that we need to be very cautious about which kids go on to puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones."
Anderson, herself a transgender woman, has spent much of her career helping evaluate gender-dysphoric kids and their families seeking possible medical transition. "I've been critical of others who feel differently than I do, and in a sense, in my opinion, treat gender dysphoria or gender questioning as a medical condition," she adds. "I don't think there's evidence to support that view."
The modern debate over transgender-identified youth can be traced back to the 1990s, when the first cohorts of gender-distressed children were treated with what became known as the "Dutch protocol": medications to prevent the onset of puberty, followed by cross-sex hormones, then surgeries in adulthood.
As the Dutch protocol began spreading throughout Europe and the United States, the number of minors referred to gender clinics was fairly low. From 2011 to 2014, for example, fewer than 500 kids per year were referred to the U.K.'s main youth gender clinic, and not all of those kids received medical intervention. Children in this earlier cohort had typically experienced severe gender-related distress from a very young age, and most were natal males, according to Anderson.
But things began to change in the late 2010s. "Not only are there an increase in numbers of kids coming to gender clinics—and there are more gender clinics, particularly in North America—but the composition of the population coming to the gender clinics has changed from a fairly homogeneous group of kids to a very heterogeneous group of kids dominated by natal females," says Anderson.
These changes prompted some professional misgivings. "There are some of us who feel that we don't have a sufficient evidence base to decide which of these heterogeneous kids are best suited for medicalization," Anderson says.
"There's pretty widespread acknowledgment that some of the gender clinics, at least in the United States, do a very poor job of assessment," Anderson says. "The assessment in some cases consists of a brief interview with a mental health person, often a social worker, and then the patient is assigned to see the physician who can prescribe puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones. In my opinion, having a short half-hour—even an hour—interview one time is insufficient in evaluating these kids who are coming to gender clinics."
According to a 2022 Reuters investigation, more than 120,000 American kids were diagnosed with gender dysphoria from 2017 through 2021. Still, only a small minority received medical intervention. Around 15,000 adolescents received hormone therapy during this time, and around 5,000 of these kids were placed on puberty blockers. Surgical interventions were even rarer. Reuters found that at least 776 minors with a gender dysphoria diagnosis received mastectomies—also known as "top surgery"—in this period. Just 56 received genital surgeries.
Anderson says that thorough assessments are so important because puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones can bring worrisome side effects, such as severe sexual dysfunction and infertility, not to mention the unknown developmental risks of delaying natural puberty.
In light of these risks, several countries have pulled back their youth gender medicine programs. Many leading U.S. medical organizations, on the other hand, have rejected the criticism. (Anderson herself resigned from USPATH after the organization considered barring its members from speaking to the press.)
As more than two dozen red states have banned at least some medical transition treatments for minors, many blue states responded with policies of their own. In 2023, Washington state lifted the requirement that youth shelters notify a minor's parents if the child left home to seek medical transition. School districts around the country, as well as the state governments of New Jersey and California, have discouraged teachers from informing parents if their child socially transitions at school.
'Better in the Hands of Their Parents'
Anderson is concerned about the possibility that CPS will intervene when parents won't consent to a child's medical transition, especially if the child's other parent disagrees. "There are some child protection workers who are given to believe…that the failure to consent to medicalization, to gender intervention, is abuse," she says. "So then the nonconsenting parent then gets accused of child abuse or neglect."
Sure enough, even as Texas officially demanded that CPS investigate the parents of transgender kids, families that express skepticism about social or medical transition for their children sometimes face a less formalized, but no less invasive, state scrutiny. Parents who resisted pursuing transition for their children have found themselves under CPS investigation after an overzealous teacher or school administrator reported them to the authorities.
Sarah (not her real name) and her husband were initially very supportive when their 12-year-old daughter came out as trans. The couple, who lived in California, used her new name and pronouns, let her dress in male clothes, and consented to giving her puberty blockers.
"We were told the famous line: 'Would you rather have a live son or a dead daughter?'" Sarah says. "And when your kid is suicidal, nothing [else] matters at that point. At that point I was naive and trusted the medical advice. I thought the people in the field knew better than me and was desperate and terrified to lose my daughter."
Although Sarah says she and her husband fully affirmed their daughter's new identity and even agreed to an increased dosage of puberty blockers at their doctor's suggestion, the child's mental health continued to deteriorate. "We found that every step that we took…made her mental health worse," Sarah says. "She might have temporarily been happy, but then it faded and then her mental health [problem] manifested back up. It was never really resolved….We were living in crisis management, not knowing if I was going to wake up and find her dead in her room the following morning."
Sarah knew something had to change. "I came out of the work force at the height of my career," she says, "and then started really pounding the pavement and saying to myself, 'OK, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing but expect a different outcome.' I knew I had to do something different."
Sarah eventually found a psychiatrist for her daughter who neither uncritically accepted nor uncritically dismissed the idea that she was transgender. Sarah says her daughter's mental health improved significantly after she worked with this new therapist, who took an "exploratory" approach to gender distress. She came off the puberty blockers and began going by a more gender-neutral name.
"I was able to sleep at night," Sarah says. "I wasn't up at night constantly patrolling and checking in on her…and opening the doors to make sure she was OK. I didn't have to do that. I actually got sleep."
Sarah's daughter still had ups and downs, though. According to Sarah, her daughter, then a high school freshman, went to the school counselor at one point and expressed some confusion and distress over her shifting gender identity. Sarah says the school counselor told her daughter that the counselor would have to call CPS.
"So then my daughter gets scared and she texts the psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist warns me that this is coming," Sarah says. "Probably hours later, I get a call on my voicemail from Child Protective Services. And we were panicked when we received that phone call."
Sarah hired an attorney to sit in on the eventual CPS home visit, and she ultimately was able to have her case fully closed. But the experience was still terrifying for the family. Sarah says that her daughter, now a student at a women's college, no longer identifies as trans—a claim that is corroborated by her daughter's social media presence. Sarah declined to make her daughter available for an interview, telling Reason in an email that "this topic is still rather triggering/upsetting for her," adding, "We don't want to put her through this again, but are sharing our story to hopefully help other families."
"We hear from many, many, many more families than we have the ability to bring lawsuits," says Vernadette Broyles, president and general counsel of the Child and Parental Rights Campaign. Broyles specializes in cases like Sarah's, as well as cases where trans-identified kids are actually removed by CPS. She says that she's worked on at least 15 cases that involved trans-identified children—cases that ranged from CPS investigations, child custody disputes, and parents who objected to a social transition at school—though her organization has provided "support or advocacy" to substantially more parents.
"It's so important for judges to recognize that these children are better in the hands of their parents," Broyles says. "And parents need to have the freedom to do what they know to be in the best interest" of their children.
'You Want Me To Do What?'
In March 2022, a Travis County, Texas, judge granted a temporary injunction in Doe v. Abbott, halting the enforcement of Abbott's order. But just over two months later, the Texas Supreme Court narrowed the scope of the injunction significantly, limiting it to the plaintiffs in the case.
In September, a different temporary injunction was issued in PFLAG v. Abbott, this time barring DFPS from "investigating members of PFLAG, including but not limited to Plaintiff Families, for possible child abuse or neglect solely based on allegations that they have a minor child who is gender transitioning or alleged to be receiving or being prescribed medical treatment for gender dysphoria."
While both injunctions are still embroiled in legal battles, with the state appealing the decisions, they were still regarded as a major victory for trans youth and their families.
"Today, families of transgender kids in Texas who are members of PFLAG National find shelter from Gov. Abbott's unjust order," Brian K. Bond, executive director of PFLAG National, said in a September 2022 press release. "Every LGBTQ+ person deserves respect, dignity and the right to access the care they need when they need it."
Less than a year later, Abbott signed Senate Bill 14, which prohibited Texas doctors from providing medical transition treatments to minors. The Texas Supreme Court upheld that law in June 2024, rejecting the argument that it violated parental rights guaranteed by the state constitution. That month, Texas filed petitions with the state Supreme Court, seeking to overturn the previous injunctions.
Despite a few victories for families investigated by CPS, the broader public fight over how to address gender dysphoria in minors—especially when it comes to medical interventions—is not going away anytime soon.
"One of the reasons why this is so hard, why we have a very divided set of circumstances here, is that traditionally, courts have relied on medical experts to determine [what's] necessary in terms of the treatment of children," says Naomi Schaefer Riley, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute who focuses on child welfare and foster care. "You can now get a medical expert to testify that if this child does not receive gender transition treatment they're going to commit suicide. But you can also get a medical expert to say cutting off a child's genitals is child abuse."
The vast majority of the parents who find themselves in these difficult situations sincerely want what's best for their children. They know their kids better than anyone else and love them more fiercely than any social worker or teacher ever will. Parents in this situation would do nearly anything to take away their children's pain and help them grow into happy, healthy adults. The last thing they need is misguided state intrusion into their lives.
Davis ultimately resigned from DFPS. He says after a brief period working under the new regime, he realized he was unable to continue working for an agency that was wasting time and resources on politically motivated investigations of loving families with transgender children. "I'm working nights, weekends, holidays, and I'm trying to keep these kids safe," he says. "And you want me to do what? You want me to go into homes that you know are safe?…This is wrong."
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It's amazing they are still pushing this delusion.
They are going to die on this tranny hill aren't they?
Y'know, it's a wonder that even at this point I still managed to have hope, between clicking to open the link in a new tab, and clicking into it and starting to read, that maybe Emma would finally be on the right side of some issue, and this article was going to be about states investigating parents for not working to mutilate their own child to satisfy that child's delusions.
WTF was I even thinking?
I think it was the California flag bear in the article picture on the proceeding page, and the top of this one, that bait-and-switched me into hoping Emma wasn't a completely psychotic fuck-nugget for those few, few instants. How is it even possible for a person to be this wrong about literally everything, and still consider themselves a libertarian?
People living in purple or red states have NO IDEA the abuse being inflicted on kids here in California by school systems. I have written about it before. Activists inside middle schools prey on 7th graders going through the awkwardness of puberty. And the stifling conformity caused by Cancel Culture has led many parents to sit idly by or consent to terrible impact to their kids.
Ms Camp tries to claim that drugs and surgery were rare, pointing out that "only" 15,000 kids received gender transition therapies during a 4 year period. First, we KNOW that the number is way higher than that, just based on whistle blowers at a few clinics around the country. But what is ignored is the GROWTH here. Thousands of percent growth, year over year. This is an epidemic and needs to be addressed.
To Ms Camp's credit, she does highlight cases where CPS was harassing California parents for NOT transing their kids. But that is part of a goal to say that governments should get out of this question all together.
I'll make that bargain- abolish the CPS *fully*. That means people will have to deal with kids being beaten and neglected, but my bet is that it will result in less abuse overall. But until then, if the CPS is going to exist, it (and its regulators/legislators) will need to make the moral determination of whether or not Gender Transition of minors is moral.
The left is a cult with the same recruiting methods as all cults. Identify vulnerable individuals. Separate them from all non cult members. Praise them for buying in. Repeat.
And if a member starts to question things, excommunicate them.
Which is more fun and less work on social media, and the internet in general.
To Ms Camp's credit, she does highlight cases where CPS was harassing California parents for NOT transing their kids. But that is part of a goal to say that governments should get out of this question all together.
Fair enough. I fully admit I stopped reading about halfway through the second segment of the article.
I got frustrated early in by how much Emma forced the usage of the tranny's preferred pronouns. It wasn't necessary and caused me to have to internally correct every pronoun usage.
She describes someone who was likely always a deceptive activist as transforming into one after the state didn't affirm transing kids. It's even more disappointing because a boy taking cross-sex hormones in that 14-16 year range can have horrible developmental consequences.
I don't think she used the term gender affirming care so I'm grateful for that at least.
Yep, me too. I try to read to the end of all articles I start. But this one was so long, and filled with such Bull$$it, I just had to stop.
It is not the pro tranny group already said it does more harm than good and is medical malpractice done solely for the purpose of creating lif long patience
15,000 in a 40 year period is waaaaaaay too many.
Yeah, whatever you think of the validity of transgenderism, the explosion of people identifying that way and seeking "affirming care" really needs to be a huge red flag that something not great is going on. Not that long ago, it was a rare curiosity hardly worth talking about for most people.
Lol. I had the exact same take.
Fuck, really? I do not read her links (or her posts, given that I know what they will say 95% of the time) but that is some serious bullshit. Time for parents to answer visits from CPS with guns drawn.
Like I say, I don't know how I managed to still be surprised. :-/
That’s exactly what I thought when I read the headline.
Should have read the byline too. That’ll teach me.
I even read the byline and somehow still thought she might get it right.
*sigh*
They will be tits up on that hill. And that is just the biological men.
Rather cocky of them. Let's see if they have the balls to admit it not a hill they should die on.
They'll pussyfoot around the issue.
That's just the camel's toe under the tent.
This is one topic where we can always count on them to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Am surprised those biological men would get so animated over this. Thought that they no longer would be too testy.
Where you been Chumby? Glad to see you but now I have to come up with witty rejoinders and I'm not very good at it.
You'll just have to be more on the ball.
Yeah, I dunno what they're so hung up on either.
“I don’t like cocky. Boo cocky!” -Peter Griffin
Even when science contradicts The Science, reason holds strong.
Is Reason still pushing scamdemic narratives due to The Science!?
They even defend visiting professors on visas advocating for the destruction of the US while belonging to terrorist groups.
Obviously the founders intended the 1st amendment to protect the rights of foreign terrorists.
Sarc
I’ll have another.
also Sarc
How long before progressives flip, and blame trans-dysphoria (and autism) on COVID vaccines? Oh, and climate change.
And conservative republicans... dont forget those...
What supports the Democrat party narratives? its built on projection sitting atop projection....
projection all the way down
I've pointed out here before that a man "transitioning" to live as a woman dramatically increases his resource consumption and carbon footprint. Being female is ecologically irresponsible.
You referring to tampon consumption?
You had to walz right in and ask that.
I'm a Reason kind of guy. I blame Christian nationalists and Orban for everything. Like the other day my car didn't start and I'm like, thanks Orban.
Bailey had a series of articles essentially doubling down on his "The Science" takes. He was either wrong about or flatly ignored the evidence that government got it wrong and lied repeatedly.
More testing needed.
They seem to want to, yes.
It is odd how "Trans kids" seem to cluster in certain families. And only in areas where that idiocy is applauded.
Hey, how else can they create woke storm troopers to vandalize Tesla dealerships?
It would be interesting to know how many violent leftists are trannies. I would assume they are very disproportionately represented.
They have a higher suicide rate then jews in ahwitz
Tranny Hill was my stripper name.
I would have guessed Vernon deeper
Let them!
Its not good when your tranny goes out on you while climbing a steep hill.
They have mutilated their children so no matter what they cannot be wrong about that choice, it must be correct or they are monsters and they have to live with that
Seems there's a huge up tic in kids saying their trans. Makes you wonder why. Mutilating children should be illegal. You can't spank them, but, you can cut off body parts? Can't give them alcohol ,but, you can give them life changing drugs? This from people that always say follow the 'science'.
"Well, little Jenny said she really felt incomplete without a facial tattoo of Elmo fucking her eye socket -- she said it just like that, too, and I thought that language was a little harsh for a six year old, but what can you do anymore these days -- and we didn't want the state to investigate us for child abuse, so of course I didn't wash her mouth out with soap, instead just booking her an appointment with the tattoo parlor. I... I suppose at least it's a very artistic rendition... *sob* My poor little girl's face has been ruined forever!"
You want a live daughter with a tattoo on her face or a dead daughter with no tattoo? You monster.
Follow the “Science!” that is issued blanket immunity.
Lysenkoism for the win!
Can I have ape troops?
Stalin
The huge up tick seems to be in, well, large blue cities predominately.
All these bien pensant Hollywood moms whose every child is trans and identified as such since they were babies.
It's like the satanist panic in the eighties but in reverse.
For progressives, children are only accessories.
Mixed race babies are the ultimate accessory…….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FQQacLD-0&t=4s
See: Munchausen by proxy.
Well, it seems Texas CPS is all trannies or parents of trannies. What are the odds of that?
Okay we need to remember there is a difference between pedofiles and minor attracted persons and people that push tranny is on children.
But the wood chipper does not care
A transgender child is like a vegan cat. We all know who is making the decision
I knew some nuts in San Francisco ages ago who were training their cat to be vegetarian and survive on rice. So they claimed. I bet that cat had other ideas.
Like suicide?
Murder-suicide.
ha!
Yes, I was invisioning "The Cat From Hell" segment of the Tales from the Darkside movie. Toying with the family for hours before it crawled down their throats.
Pet sematary?
The cat flat out had other genetics, being an obligate carnivore.
If the cat defected, hope it didn’t end up in Ohio.
you can bet if it did that the cat's name was Lucky
It was an indoor-outdoor cat. I assumed it robbed other cat food or practiced its hunting skills.
There's always a mouse lurking around somewhere.
Transsexualism is mental illness. Period. Parents who support this horseshit need to be prosecuted for child abuse.
To repeat myself, see: Munchausen by proxy.
Emma basically just lit up the batshit signal for Jeffy here.
It's easy to see why Jeffy would be in favor of puberty blockers. He could have a barely legal boyfriend who looks 12.
My theory is that Ieffy is too fat to catch actual children and too afraid of prison to try. Seriously, how long what that fat, weak, excruciating piece of shit last in prison? He would likely be shivved after a single sea lioning lecture to his fellow inmates.
About 5 years late. Wondering which leftist rag finally admitted this so reason could finally discuss it.
Ahh. It isn't about states like California going against parents and forcing trans. It is about states recognizing that trans surgeries have no actual benefits, but only harm children.
Pathetic.
Libertarians for state control!
Right. Here we have people treating a question of fact as if it were a matter of opinion. The whole point of "freedom of [whatever]" is that "whatever" can't be proven, so we let people choose, and in those cases parents are allowed to choose for their minor children.
I have kids only because on holy days I butcher them and turn them into soup. You cool with that?
So who polishes your monocle? Illegal immigrants?
You can know certain facts, irrespective of the science regarding these treatments.
We know the INTENT of gender transition is to obligate a child to a lifetime of medication and in most cases the destruction of their ability to sexually reproduce. This is absolutely beyond the scope of a parent's responsibility to the child. The parent's INTENT is abusive.
We know the INTENT of Puberty Blockers is to delay a child's transition to adulthood. This is, to put it mildly, the primary purpose of a parent- to steward the child into adulthood where they can make decisions for themselves. Therefore, the parent's INTENT is a dereliction of their duty as a parent- neglect.
This is not hard. It merely requires logic instead of hiding behind a smokescreen of The Science!™.
I am sympathetic with arguments that the State has NO role protecting kids from abusive parents, but those arguments generally mean the State is minimized to near nothing.
I'm late to the party, but I think you're wrong on this.
The INTENT of the parent is not to obligate the child to a lifetime of medication, or to destroy their ability to reproduce.
It is more probably a second order consequence of their decision to go along with their child's delusion, which is most probably done out of a misplaced sense of obligation to go along with whatever nonsense their child does or says.
It seems tremendously unlikely to me that parents are doing this to their children BECAUSE it screws them over. I give them at least a benefit of a doubt that they love their children and simply are misguided and misinformed. That can still be child abuse, as abuse doesn't need to be intentional to be child abuse. Negligence, for example, isn't an intention to do harm even while it can and usually does result in harm.
That seems far more logical than what you wrote above.
Okay, let me rephrase: This INTENT of the parent in the case of transition drugs/surgery is to permanently alter that child for the rest of their life.
Now they may think that is right to do because they think their Layla should be a Larry. But their INTENT is a change that is irreversible. When a girl takes testosterone, her body changes in ways that cannot be fixed- her voice being lowered, and damage to her reproductive system. Surgery is even more drastic, removing the child's ability to ever reproduce.
This is not a "Second Order Consequence". It is the entire purpose of the transition- to remove, destroy or chemical damage the body's ability to perform the functions unique to the they were born with.
At this point we can conclude that those who support these atrocities are wish casting... they WANT their position to be true so badly they force state into it. If the state says its okay whether actively by persecuting sane parents, or passively by 'getting out of the medical biz and letting Dr Mengele rule the day' then its all good and the overton window gets moved just a bit more towards everyone living on a diet of crazy pills.
Too be fair, they do cover California and other states harassing parents for not transing their kids. But it is a "both sides, instead we should let parents do what they think is right" type of thing. Of course if you are going to make that case, then you need to make the case that the State should have NO role in protecting children from abuse. Because gender transition is child abuse or neglect depending on the procedure.
"The plaintiffs described nerve-racking home visits and investigations that dragged on despite turning up no evidence of abuse or neglect."
This is a very unfortunate article, because it starts with this question begging, and goes on from there. OF COURSE there was no abuse if you do not believe that Gender Transition is abuse or neglect. But that is the question at hand- and of course, Reason and Ms Camp decline to wade into that question. This is why Libertarians get a reputation for being unserious and unready for governance.
"At first, the directive seemed hard to believe, especially since medical transition for minors—interventions such as puberty-blocking medication, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries—were legal in Texas."
This is another bit of logical malpractice from Ms Camp. The better term for the situation was that Gender Transition procedures were UNREGULATED for Minors. These drugs and procedures have been available for years, and in fact they have many uses outside of Gender Transition- those might include treating other conditions like early-onset puberty, or genitalia reconstruction after a bad injury. The widespread act of slicing up and doping children because they were uncomfortable with their bodies is relatively new.
And so here we are, as a nation, (all except Reason, of course) grappling with the question of whether or not it is morally/ethically acceptable for Guardians to consent to Gender Transition and Puberty Blocking for minors.
Spoiler: It is not morally or ethically acceptable for Guardians to consent to Gender Transition or Puberty Blocking for the minors under their care.
That makes every use case in the above article completely different. When the transgender CPS official sat down with a "normal and harmonious seeming" family, they were also looking at a family abusing its child. Because performing surgery or giving drugs by definition is abuse.
I am no fan of CPS. And it's no secret that State Agents can and do fuck up and abuse their when power trying to protect children, whether it is protecting them from a violent father beating his son, or a confused mother transing her daughter. But before we can have that conversation, we need to agree on where abuse begins. And Reasons inability to do this makes this entire article a waste of space.
The reason there was no law against "transing" children in the past was because parents weren't abusing their children in such a horrible manner. No one thought to make the law until the left made having a trans child the current "pocket poodle", and current fad for crazy liberal women to prove their creds.
No one thought a law was needed because who would have thought beginning around 2020 (and earlier in some blue cities), parents would be all for cutting off their son's penis and daughter's breast at age 12.
Some actress advocating for abusing children in such a manner yelled in a speech that her children were all trans, as were her sister's children and neighbor's children. This is not a medical issue. It is a social contagion brought on by the left and pushed in K-12 government schools. They want to destroy children. It is a religion for them.
Right. That was my point. There were many uses for these treatments- both for adults and for children suffering OTHER conditions, like early onset puberty, or physical damage/genetic abnormalities to their genitalia.
But there was no regulation around gender transition of minors because prior to around 2015, no one thought it was something to discuss.
My niece was put on puberty blockers as part of her treatment for childhood brain cancer.
Article: Texas governor went after people for doing something that was legal at the time.
Trump defenders: You support mutilating children you dirty leftist!
Between this and going after people over speech, this looks to me like a trend. Going after people who did not break the law, but because they’re unsympathetic it’s easy for haters to condone it. Though I’m sure some Democrat did it first which invalidates criticism and makes it perfectly ok.
Mutilating children has always been wrong. There is a victim there. Kudos for Texas for stepping in to stop that child abuse. This is far worse than when Maine CPS was called on you.
Sarc has been spending too much time simping for jeff. He is a few months away from supporting MAPs and saying sex is healthy for 5 year olds.
He is not yet sure, but willing to try it--as any open-minded person would.
I've said it before but Sarcasmic would kill and eat it baby if he thought it would anger Jesse and offend MAGA.
Sarc's adopted the morals of demons solely because people here made him mad.
No matter how much sarc carries the water for this, in these comments for this topic, jeff will always be the heavy.
Top or bottom?
He’d squash anyone beneath him.
I was hoping we would finally drive him to suicide. Even if it only meant he drank himself to death
MAPedo is the proper terminology.
So I should be referring to Jeffy as ‘MAPedo Jeffy’?
Sure, it was legal at the time because the law can't anticipate every specific mishigos people might dream up to abuse each other by. I'd say it would be a reasonable defense against a criminal charge of child abuse that some doctor or doctors gave people to believe this was doing something good for the child, but now that the practice is known it should be enjoined, and the existing victims rescued to the extent possible.
HOW MUCH HATRED swill shit take to appease the haters, is twat I wanna know. Haters, please let us know!
(Also, actually, this, too: Twat did the different ones do to YOU?)
Please stop with the Tourette Syndrome style commenting.
This is the problem with Libertarians. They are far left on too many issues.
There is no such thing as a trans child. It's child abuse to think otherwise.
Emma please go post this junk as Slate.
At this point I’m convinced that gender dysphoria is a real thing. Rare, but real. Mostly because when I talk to gay people they all say they knew they were attracted to the same sex at an early age. Why would this be different? The anger I see arises about the treatment, and the discussion should stay there instead of denying the diagnosis. It’s similar to global warming in that those who don’t like the politics deny that warming exists. In both cases discussion about solutions is shut down by denying the problem and/or attacking the people involved.
Self-selection fallacy or whatever it's called.
Did you ask every man you met? No, some gay men said something. How good is your gaydar? How many gays have you met without knowing they are gay? Are you gay? Very few straight men talk to gay men about their childhood attractions and fantasies. How many straight men had the same childhood thoughts and grew out of it? You don't know.
Full of shit as usual.
Great job at refuting me, but not what I said. There's a phrase for that.
Yes it is. Your post is still right there. It didn't disappear just because you now find it inconvenient.
"when I talk to gay people they all say they knew they were attracted to the same sex at an early age."
Exactly what you said.
They must tell him that when he’s bent over in his alley doing his ‘gay for booze pay’ thing.
Yup.
Sarc's 100% heterosexual, but there is no doubt in my mind he sucked more than a few dicks as a young teenager for alcohol and drugs.
Are you so retarded that you think people can’t see the post you wrote and what you said?
As someone with hopefully slightly more credibility than Sarc -- and yes, I'm certain that I will regret weighing in on this -- I will say that I was myself a person who experienced romantic and sexual (at least, as sexual as I had any idea of what that was at the time) attraction to members of the opposite sex at a very early age. Like, "in kindergarten I had an opinion about which girls were pretty" levels of "early". I just never had one of those "girls are icky" stages. And my niece, who is a lesbian, during a conversation we had shortly after she came out and was getting a lot of static from her parents, told me that she also experienced attraction during elementary school, but to other girls. Having been raised in an LDS household in a small town in West Virginia, and therefore not being familiar with the concept of "lesbian" at 7, she was admittedly confused by this.
I have also known a handful of trans people for a very long time, going back decades to way before it was "popular", who faced significant opprobrium for it. These days in at least some circles, one will be positively lauded for being trans, which is part of why we're seeing such a surge in it. Thirty years ago, not so much.
So I will absolutely believe that some nigh vanishingly small portion of the population does actually have a legitimate case of gender dysphoria for which the now-commonly-known suite of treatments is their actual best bet for a happy life. That, however, is not the vast majority of what we're seeing today, and frankly, I have often thought that the current "trans movement" would actually make quite the effective social engineering operation to get my friends killed as collateral damage in the backlash. Like, it's hard to imagine what might more effectively generate hate for actual trans people than the antics of the current "trans movement".
I'll check in for the backlash on this in a while. I gotta go do some automotive electrical work. Whee.
Also, please note that this comment only knows as much about what Sarc actually said as Roberta quoted below. So keep in mind that that is the sum total of what I'm agreeing with in any of this, combined with a response to the comment I'm replying to and what it implies about what Sarc said.
I'm sure there is a wide variation from men who wear dresses to drag queens to those who want surgery. I don't care what they do to themselves as adults. If parents want to dress their boy children as girls, I personally think the parents are acting out their own fantasies, but it's not my problem, and I have read, and seen enough photographs to believe, that it was once common for all young children to wear dresses, boys and girls.
I object to irreversible gender "affirmation" care on minors, period. The very very few children who might benefit from this, as children, are far outweighed by the abuse this allows by adults playing out some political fantasy in their minds. It is equivalent to requiring every drag queen or cross dresser to get genital mutilation surgery as an adult.
Children are minors, legally incompetent at making such decisions, and to pretend others can decide for them, but not for smoking or drinking or drugs ... I have no word for my disgust at such ideas.
I object to teachers and counselors brainwashing them.
I object to government laws making it illegal for school employees to tell parents what their children say in school.
I object to government laws making it criminal child abuse to use the "wrong" pronouns or not "provide" genital mutilation surgery, especially after the school staff have brainwashed the children and not told the parents. That is disgusting beyond belief, and is enough by itself to make me wish every wokidiot were dead.
Oh yes. I realize I did not make that immediately clear. I also oppose transgender "care" for minors. Sorry, it was so obvious in my head that I didn't even think to state it here. None of what I said was intended in any way to support any of those things.
I was simply giving personal anecdata in support of some gay people knowing they were gay from a very early age, and that there are some people out there with legitimate gender dysphoria. I can see how my response may have given the impression that I was in favor of providing transition therapy to minors. If there were any way to actually select only the "true transgender" minors, I would probably be willing to budge on that, but there isn't, and the probability of harms is just too great.
Also, the people who put together wiring harnesses for Plymouth and Dodge (in the 70's through 90's at least) were assholes.
No problem, you did make it clear. I just wanted to make it super duper clear 🙂
Ah, excellent. OK.
What's wrong with the Plymouth?
Oh, I only mentioned the Plymouth at this point because I untangled a couple of early 70's wiring harnesses at one point as well. The current item on the slab is a '91 D350 Cummins powered ex-service Ambulance. Which means that not only was the wiring harness fucked straight from the factory, it also got butchered by the ambulance coachbuilder, and then a subsequent owner. So mostly at this point my goal is "not completely insane".
"I was simply giving personal anecdata in support of some gay people knowing they were gay from a very early age, and that there are some people out there with legitimate gender dysphoria."
This is also important to discuss, because we are finding that a lot of the boys and girls who were mutilated are just...gay. The fact that you are attracted to the same sex does not necessarily mean you are the "wrong" sex. (In fact I would argue that it never means you are the wrong sex...you are what your chromosomes made you.) And the Trans Activists should eventually be held to account for rendering thousands of boys and girls unable to enjoy sex in the future, merely because they were homosexual.
Yeah, I don't understand why (parts) of the lesbian/gay community are supporting this stuff; it's like a holocaust against gay youth.
This is also important to discuss, because we are finding that a lot of the boys and girls who were mutilated are just...gay.
Absolutely. For all the howling against "gay conversion therapy", this is quite literally "gay conversion surgery".
Guessing you've never had a Jaguar. British Leyland harnesses are crimes against humanity.
Briefly had a Jensen-Healey that fell off a truck. That positive ground is... interesting.
No. I hate myself, but not that much... 😉
There are plenty of DSM5 conditions that deal with a belief or some type of impulse ideation. It doesn't make the belief legitimate just because someone thinks in some manner.
I have a core belief that I am in reality, a billionaire super genius with Jedi force powers. And as such, I fully expat the government to provide any funding necessary to live my best life.
This includes billions of dollars and medical treatments to give me an acceptable midichlorian count. Anyone who demos me this is a goddamned bigot and literally worse than Hitler.
Almost forgot. I also identify as someone who has threesomes with Gal Gadot and Sydney Sweeney.
I have a core belief that I am in reality, a billionaire super genius with Jedi force powers.
And given that you are presumably an individual of legal age, I fully support your right to do what you can (legally, no theft) to transform yourself into that.
(Alternate considered response: "Elon?!") 😀
No, no. According to democrats, I am entitled to unlimited public funds to live as I truly am. So they should be comfortable with me confiscating a few hundred billion dollars,Lars form them to establish my own ‘Stark International’ company, build my own Iron Man armor, and research medical treatments to raise my midichlorian count.
And while all that gets sorted out, they can send Sweeney and Gadot over immediately.
No, no. According to democrats, I am entitled to unlimited public funds to live as I truly am.
Yeah, but Democrats are fucking retards, so... maybe not the best lead to follow.
So, go forth and start your own multibillion dollar company, and if you figure the Jedi thing out, gimme a holler, yeah?
And should you manage to convince Godot and Sweeney to go along with your aspirations in that matter, well, you will deserve all of the fistbumps forever. 😉
There are plenty of DSM5 conditions that deal with a belief or some type of impulse ideation.
Yes, homosexuality used to also be in the DSM. For all I know, it may still be, although given how politicized the thing is, I doubt it.
But that's the thing with both homosexuality and gender dysphoria. Neither of those picks my pocket, breaks my arm, or pisses in my well. So why should I care if some guy to decide that he'd rather live life following a more feminine gender role. All of the transwomen I'd known since the 90's were all perfectly aware that there was nothing they could ever do to change their sex, but felt more comfortable dressing and acting in a more traditionally feminine manner than a masculine one. They also all tend to be rather polite towards "regular" women. I certainly don't object to guys being gay. Hell, the more of them that go that way, the more chicks there are for me to possibly pick up. 😉
And given that the "belief" I'm referring to is that they'd be happier conforming to a different gender role, I don't see how that belief can be externally judged as "legitimate" or not.
As stated above, I have no truck with people injecting kids with hormones and other drugs, and carving bits off of them and implanting other bits into them. What consenting adults get up to is none of my business, so long as they don't force it to be. These young ladies -- and indeed, I did and still do think of them as "ladies -- were polite about things. Not a one of them ever screamed in my face over pronouns or their supposed right to do some thing other than be left alone, which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for a number of actual women. And as such, I never had any problem using their preferred names and referring to them with feminine pronouns.
But I'm a contrary son of a bitch, and that's only gotten worse as I've gracefully gone from being a cantankerous young cuss to being a cantankerous late-middle-aged cuss. So whenever anyone tells me that I have to do anything other than leave them alone if they aren't harming me or anyone else, or that I can't do some other thing because it's offensive, it makes me instead significantly more likely to not do the thing they tell me I have to do, or more like to do the thing they say isn't allowed, even if I never wanted to before.
Example: I'd never have burned a Koran if there weren't assholes out there chopping off people's heads for doing it.
Likewise, when some obvious dude with after-dinner o'clock shadow insists that "It's MA'AM!" there's basically no chance whatsoever that I'm going to go along with that either.
Gays aren't given hormones or surgery to try to change their biological looks or hormones to match a DNA expression.
There is a difference between saying fine, dress like the opposite sex and demanding surgery and drugs.
They aren't close in nature.
Likewise you don't have a surging number of gay regret like we see with detransitioners.
There is a difference between saying fine, dress like the opposite sex and demanding surgery and drugs.
So, do you also oppose other types of cosmetic surgery?
"Sorry, your DNA said you have small tits."
Why on earth do you care what consenting adults do to themselves with their own money? I should hope I have a sufficient commenting history here for it to be obvious that I'm clearly not advocating for the government paying for it, and I think I gave enough examples in the previous comment that I'm not insisting anyone else go along with it.
Likewise you don't have a surging number of gay regret like we see with detransitioners.
Well, it's a hell of a lot easier to stop being gay, for one thing. And, of course, so far as I'm aware, the vast majority of those detransitioners were children who were effectively duped into thinking they were trans. I have been exceedingly clear in the comments to this article that I oppose that. The four transwomen I know who all went that route prior to the current hysteria (hah!) are, at least to outward appearances, significantly happier than they were beforehand. I 10,000% agree that it is not for everyone or even most people, and that it is being done to a lot of people who will not only not benefit from it, but will be actively harmed by it. My entire point for the comment I made is that the number is also not zero as a number of opponents claim.
"Nuance, apparently the most difficult thing ever."
The trans cult keeps telling us that these people have always been with us. Well duh tell me something I didn't know. Had a friend in the 80s who decided he was a woman trapped in a man's body. But he never got in my face and demanded any special treatment. "Hey, it's a free country" was baked into the culture back then and if somebody wanted to go down that road on their own dime nobody gave a shit. Live and let live cuts both ways.
Ill also add that I'm just as against the large portion of the gay community who advocates for sleeping with minors "struggling with being gay" and does shot like put Grindr qr codes in middle school books.
"So I will absolutely believe that some nigh vanishingly small portion of the population does actually have a legitimate case of gender dysphoria for which the now-commonly-known suite of treatments is their actual best bet for a happy life. "
Based on this construction, I can agree, however modified by a couple EXTREMELY important caveats:
1) It had been widely accepted for DECADES that the vast number of people suffering from Gender Dysphoria grew out of it, and by 18 or 21 were comfortable with the bodies they were born in. So for the VAST number of people suffering from GD, the best treatment was therapy and time.
2) The major problem we have is that ACTIVISTS up and down the coast are diagnosing and recommending kids for treatment. These are teachers, peers, and counselors. They are people who have ZERO business diagnosing this shit and they are pushing it on young girls who are (naturally) feeling awkward about their bodies as they go through puberty.
3) The lexicon of Queer ideology has become extremely confusing for these youth. My wife and mother fought tooth and nail to participate in "masculine" activities- working high power jobs, playing contact sports, shooting, working with knives. 50 years ago they were told "These are boys activities, girls aren't allowed." Now the supposed progressives are saying, "These are boys activities so if you like them, it means you are a boy."
4) Many of the people preyed upon by these cultists aren't even "masculine presenting" girls (or feminine presenting boys). I have personally seen several heartbreaking cases where dress-wearing, makeup wearing, pretty pony loving girls were talked into declaring themselves trans. Usually this was because they had other reasons for being uncomfortable with their bodies (early puberty, weight problems). This is the wild-wild west out there and activists in the schools are telling these children that their natural discomfort is actually gender dysphoria.
I am the first to acknowledge that Gender is a cultural archetype. But in acknowledging that, we then accept that the question of culture is currently being overwritten by Queer Studies professors. It is insanity, and it should be chased out of mainstream schools as fast as any other crackpottery like Intelligent Design.
Once again, Overt gets it and says it better than I could.
I strive to be as loquacious as Overt, but find I fall short too much of the time.
I have had a lot of time to think about this.
I volunteer with young boys and girls. I have been heartbroken to see many troubled youth tossed into a mental tailspin by an ideology that DEMANDS you reject your SELF. A year or so ago, I was forced to reconcile my libertarian impulses with this issue. Unlike abortion, which is not something impacting me personally, this issue impacts me every day with the children I interact with. And so I have spent the better part of a year writing here and elsewhere as I develop my moral framework for this issue.
Then they came for my daughter.
Should I stand aside for STATE AGENTS attempting to convince my daughter she was a boy because she liked camping? Or is my cultural view of gender enough on its own to push back against that? I had to be sure of my moral compass and as a result I feel I am pretty clear on my beliefs.
This isn't visceral or emotional. I have thought long and hard about this issue, so I hope it shows.
It comes through!
I admit I personally have an emotional, visceral reaction to this stuff.
I grew up fairly conservative (no shock, I’m sure), but when Mrs.
Designate and I got pregnant with our first I determined I would be damned if anyone put her in the antiquated boxes we grew up with. And now we’ve got people trying to equate gender norms/roles with gender/biological sex.
And I would probably just roll my eyes and grunt in disgust for the butchering of the language and the pushing of the boxes, but the activists couldn’t leave well enough alone and started trying to convince KIDS that if they liked to wear pants and play with transformers (or like to wear princess dresses and play tea party) that they might be confused about their gender. And then they started callling people bigots for not wanting biological men participating in women’s sports.
How did they think normal people would react to that?
This is where we must fault leftism in general. For all their talk of inclusivity, their aggressive approach to consensus- from NGO propaganda pushed in academia, schools and media, to their censorship campaigns on Social Media, to their use of cancel culture, the left has created a monoculture where activists could punch way above their weight in popularity of ideas.
I have many leftist friends, living in CA. They are fine people, even if their politics are damaging. I would be sympathetic with them if it stopped here, and their movement had just had a blind eye to this trans nuttery.
It is absolutely chilling how many lefty friends have confided in me after beers how much this trans shit terrorizes them. Whether it is their wives, work, school, or circle of friends- they are afraid to push back but deeply concerned with what is being done to kids.
I have no disagreement with any of what you said.
Hardly anyone brings up "the science" here; they just want to vent their hatreds.
The cumulative uptick in environmental contaminants to include sex-hormone mimics and "forever chemicals" may be behind the increase in "dysphoria" here; see alligators and hormone mimics. This is NOT all about children getting "brainwashed" in school!
https://academic.oup.com/icb/article-abstract/40/3/438/379945?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Alligators and Endocrine Disrupting Contaminants: A Current Perspective
Alligators may be the "canary in the coal mine" here!
Hardly anyone brings up "the science" here; they just want to vent their hatreds.
Science? What science? They know what they feel and nothing can change that.
Kind of like you two child castration fetishists.
I would MUCH rather be afflicted with a child castration fetish (which I am un-afflicted by), then to be afflicted with a SUICIDE FETISH like YOU, Oh PervFected Servant and Serpent of the Evil One!
Not me. I'd much rather kill myself than be into chemically gelding castrati for the purposes of pederasty.
Thanks for proving my point though.
It's cute that Sarc acts like he is being the rational one when he jumps in and +1s a scientific paper that has nothing to do with an issue at hand.
If I posted a paper talking about how the magnetic field is changing the color of ducks' eyes, would that mean I am not subject to the feels either? Or is it just people throwing out irrelevancies who support his worldview that get this respect?
To be fair, Sarckles never read the paper, or Sqrlsy's irrelevant post, or indeed 99% of the other posts. He just looked for the names on his 'attack' list, and posted accordingly.
The 'social science" .... not real science.
Okay SQRLSY, let's talk the SCIENCE!™ here.
Oh wait. You didn't present any science that is germane.
You presented a paper that discusses certain chemicals causing PHYSIOLOGICAL changes to alligators (not humans). Let's note that a child with Gender Dysphoria is a perfectly healthy male or female. These children do not show signs of, "altered fertility, reduced viability of offspring, impaired hormone secretion or activity and modified reproductive anatomy"
So your paper isn't even about canaries in a coal mine.
So then The Great Overt Scientist has PROOF that endocrine disruptors, which can degrade the abilities or sexual functions of alligators, have ZERO chances of being able to change the sex-related behavioral impulses of human children? Where is your proof? Where are Your PervFected Papers? PLEASE let me know when You PervFectly Publish or Pubish them! I want to read them!
PS, if Ye don't have an academic degree, then look up "ResearchGate", they will publish Your PervFect Papers online, even when not peer-reviewed! I have 17 papers published there, but I sure as hell will NOT tell You (or the other cowardly potential midnight fire-bombers) what my real name is!
Publish or shut up, PLEASE!!! At the VERY least, You could give us a PervFect CITATION to prove what You say!
"So then The Great Overt Scientist has PROOF that endocrine disruptors, which can degrade the abilities or sexual functions of alligators, have ZERO chances of being able to change the sex-related behavioral impulses of human children? "
I don't need to, Squirrels. I don't need to prove a negative (that no proof exists) because that is a logical fallacy. YOU invoked The Science!™ saying that it has something germane to say. YOU are implying that endocrine disruptors are causing perfectly healthy human children to think they have a different sex than the perfectly healthy human body they were born with.
Posting a scientific paper that suggests endocrine disruptors are causing physiological changes in alligators is not proof in any way....Well except in an important way that is inconvenient to you: that chemicals (in the environment) can make alligators sterile just as chemicals (administered by abusive doctors and parents) can make children sterile. But I don't think that's the interpretation of The Science!™ you were going for.
Or was it? I admit you can be hard to follow.
Shit's pretty simple. Environment contaminants CAN and HAVE changed sexual function in other animals. Humans are just another animal... Unless you're a whack-job creationist. There is a STRONG chance that THIS might be behind sex-behavior changes in humans! If we addressed that possibility, researched it objectively (data-driven-wise, unlike the emotional haters here all day every day), then we MIGHT find fixes! Less harmful chemicals, better chemicals, better treatment of wastes at the sewage treatment plant. "The Science" here could help a LOT more than endless hatreds of different people! Especially from hypocritical "Christians" who talk bad about "different" people in front of their kids, spreading their self-righteous hatreds, who are then SOOOOO surprised when their kids start bully, teasing, and hurting the "different" kids at school!
"The science" here could help a LOT more than the unthinking hatred we see spread in THESE comments ALL of the time! Lusts for always PUNISHING the "wrong" people don't help, either.
"Environment contaminants CAN and HAVE changed sexual function in other animals."
Environmental contaminates can and have caused PHYSIOLOGICAL changes in other animals according to some studies.
Therefore if you are going to assert that endocrine disrupters may cause GD, then we should see parallels between alligators and GD children. You could, for example, go on your next epic google hunt to find and provide a study showing that kids with GD have been shown to have "altered fertility, reduced viability of offspring, impaired hormone secretion or activity and modified reproductive anatomy".
"There is a STRONG chance that THIS might be behind sex-behavior changes in humans"
In fact, the paper you presented suggests EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.
Your paper suggests that alligators exposed to endocrine disruptors manifest "altered fertility, reduced viability of offspring, impaired hormone secretion or activity and modified reproductive anatomy". Children with gender dysphoria do NOT express these physiological changes. (at least until some ethically challenged person starts feeding them drugs...)
Let me repeat this: There is NOTHING in that paper that suggests alligators are suffering from Gender Dysphoria. And so it is not evidence that endocrine disruptors cause gender dysphoria.
Therefore, while it is POSSIBLE that there is a "strong chance" that endocrine disruptors are behind this behavior, you have not provide any evidence. Such evidence would be papers that show an animal has ZERO physiological changes, but begins BEHAVING as if it is of the opposite sex. So...you seem good at google searches...can you find any?
"(data-driven-wise, unlike the emotional haters here all day every day)"
I'm not going to sugar-coat this: You are spouting shit, Squirrels.
Just because you posted a paper doesn't mean you are data driven. It doesn't mean you aren't a venom-filled lunatic who hates hates hates people he disagrees with. All it means is that you both fallaciously cede authority to The Science!™ while clearly not understanding it. The alligators in that paper are not displaying ANY symptoms of GD and so the paper is not germane.
""The science" here could help a LOT more than the unthinking hatred we see spread in THESE comments ALL of the time!"
You are exactly wrong, and your embarrassing posts above prove why.
Just like a Sky-God Fearing Savage, you took entrails you don't understand (a scientific paper) and attempted to use them to prove you were right. Like those savages who don't understand how entrails fail to predict the future, you could not grasp that the paper you produced has fuck all to do with gender dysphoria.
It's bullshit Squirrels, and even you should be ashamed. You attempted to make an appeal to authority. (That's a logical fallacy). But your appeal to authority was as compelling as a a savage insisting that entrails prove that SHE IS A WITCH!
In addition to being a non-sequitur (the question is not what causes GD, but what is acceptable remediation), you then proceeded to an appeal to authority ("The Science!™ has Spoken!"), a category error ("Alligators had sexual function damage due to EDs in the environment, therefore behavior changes with NO sexual function damage must also be caused by EDs"), and topped off with demanding that I prove a negative ("Prove there is zero evidence that EDs cause GD").
That's 4 (four!!!) logical fallacies in 3 posts.
If we DID need more science around here, you have demonstrated yourself to be the last person to provide it. But in fact you have demonstrated how The Science!™ worshipers like yourself are no different from the standard Sky God worshiper- you have no capacity for logic and will search for anything that "proves" your whims, presenting it as an authority that others should just support.
People with ANY genuine understanding, for thousands of years now, have understood that the mind and the body are one. This is why many scientists study (and computer-model) biological motion, off of fossilized bones, as well as living animals. Even our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago understood that a wolf walks and runs like a wolf because it has the body of a wolf, and a human, a bird, a fish, and a horse, etc., likewise. Very few humans walk like a chicken or a wolf unless they are badly crippled. The body and mind are one; One is not divorced from the other. Beings with penises are programmed to act like such, and ditto the ones with vaginas. If endocrine mimics are messing us up (all of us animals collectively), then they will affect the body and mind together. It is intuitive, yet VERY data-driven. There are examples of singular genes which willy-nilly affect totally different aspect of the body and mind, which are surprising. Behavior aspects and fur colors of domestic cats, for example. Sea Lion, I won't prove it for you, because Your PervFected Mind is already fossilized. No citations from me; I know when I am wasting my time. But there are reasons why my biologically programmed behavior instincts do NOT encourage me to habitually to try to run like a wolf or walk like a chicken! Duh! Double-duh! Hello!?!?!
Why do I have to explain this to you? I think that it is this: Because I think for myself, I can think, at the one and the same time, that benevolent and wise people should NOT waste their time and effort lusting after punishing "wrong" or "different" people, who do NOT need punishment! Then I also think that endocrine disruptors may be a root cause of increases in "GD" in humans. These thoughts of mine is WRONG from a "Team R" Tribal-Correctness perspective; ONLY cultural brainwashing can be legitimately blamed for "Gender Dysphoria"!!! And OF COURSE We Superior People should be allowed to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH, always PUNISH, the "wrong" people! Shit is our well-earned privilege of being Superior Beings!
So it is my Tribal Wrongness that offends You Most PervFectly!
You know, our instincts towards tribal behavior and always PUNISHING the people who think for themselves, who think tribally-wrongly, are genetically programmed also, and are the reasons why these people are heavily criticized and often killed, especially when they deride tribalism, as it (unthinking, instinctual tribalism) should be derided. This is why they killed Jesus, Gandhi, and MLK Jr.!
To learn more about this latter thing, see "do-gooder derogation" and this... “Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
"People with ANY genuine understanding"
Appeal to authority, again. A logical fallacy.
"If endocrine mimics are messing us up (all of us animals collectively), then they will affect the body and mind together."
Except we AREN'T seeing the impact to the "body and mind". We are only seeing impact to the mind. We call this "Hypothesis falsification".
Yes and the evidence you provided says that the body effects will include "altered fertility, reduced viability of offspring, impaired hormone secretion or activity and modified reproductive anatomy" and NOT "behaving like the opposite sex".
On the other hand, the only kids with Gender Dysphoria who show these physical traits are the ones who have been given puberty blockers or gender transition drugs.
So if your paper has any relevance at all, it is to show that Endocrine Disruptors seem to do the same thing to alligators as gender transition drugs do to children. I don't think this is the point you were trying to make, however.
"No citations from me; I know when I am wasting my time."
Oooooh big man! "I know I'm right, but I'm not going to prove it to you."
Get bent, Nutter. I was the only person here who showed you the respect of clicking your link to read your paper. That's why I was the only one to figure out you posted something that says the OPPOSITE of what you intended. Rather than actually discuss the merits of the paper, you are now acting like a 5 year old.
Who do you think you are fooling?
When Ye are done Pervfectly PUNISHING-PUNISHING-PUNISHING teens and their parents and their doctors for GD, are Ye ALSO gonna PUNISH God-Nature-evolution for giving us hermaphrodites and "intersex" babies? If Ye can PervFectly PROVE that NONE of this is caused by endocrine mimics and pollution , MANY Nobel Prizes may fall RIGHT into YOUR PervFected Rightist and Righteous lap! I will be cheering You Right on!
https://www.orthoatlanta.com/health-news/about-1-in-1000-babies-born-intersex-study-finds
About 1 in 1,000 Babies Born 'Intersex,' Study Finds
FRIDAY, May 3, 2019 (HealthDay News) -- Cases in which a newborn's genitals make it unclear whether the child is a boy or girl may be more common than once believed, researchers say.
HOW shall we PUNISH Nature-God AND these babies, to BEST satisfy Your PervFectly Raging Punishment Hard-On?
"I don't think this is the point you were trying to make, however."
Your Tinfoil Mind-Reading Hate-Hat BADLY needs calibrated! I am NOT cheering on "Gender Dysphoria" or celebrating those who suffer from it getting surgery for it! Far from it, totally! This is YOUR Tribal Brain malfunctioning! All I am saying is that OTHER hypothesis OTHER than cultural brain-washing need to be looked at, and HATING on the "different" people, lusting after punishments, is neither "Christian", ethical, or good, in any way!
...SIGH... All ye "Christians" and "Small Government Almighty 'Libertarians'" who cum here to satisfy their punishment boners and HATE on the different people, and who think Ye are PervFectly "Doing Good", Ye PervFectly DISGUST me and many more sensible and genuinely benevolent people!
I have REPEATEDLY posted the below, and I will post it yet AGAIN, on the tiny chance that any readers here are looking for HELP for loved ones who suffer gender dysphoria!!! In the middle of all of the HATE here, yes, SOME of us want to actually HELP! And we do NOT egg on the lies of the medical establishment, nor surgeons who LOVE to do surgery, willy-nilly, given brief spermission to do so! I am NOT on your side, willy-nilly surgeons, nor am I on the side of the FUCKING EVIL HATERS!!! Hello?!?!? Genuine benevolent people like me DO exist, hello?!?!
This is an old, tired, sad fight by now! “Science” that suppresses gathering and reporting data!
http://reason.com/blog/2017/10/03/brickbat-dont-ask-dont-tell
I am utterly SHOCKED to learn that NOT offending the “tranny brigade” of PC people is WAY more important than the actual happiness of trannies and potential trannies!!! Or even STUDYING such matters!
Speaking of such things, there are biochemical, often off-label, solutions to your urges towards becoming a tranny, which MIGHT actually lead to better results! To MORE happiness, for many potential trannies! To becoming happy with your body, as it already is! Imagine that!
See http://www.drugs.com/condition/gender-dysphoria.html for “Off Label” uses of drugs for suppressing “gender dysphoria”… 6 drugs listed in web link above, to include (pretty obviously) testosterone…
Also use below as search-string…
“Transgender woman, who claims pills for male hair-loss sparked gender change, opens up about 'life and death struggle'” = = https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2203366/Transgender-woman-claims-pills-male-hair-loss-sparked-gender-change-opens-life-death-struggle.html
Concerns male-hair-loss “…drug Propecia, called finasteride, to halt the onset of hereditary baldness”, which feminized his / her body, and brought around the desire for a sex change, according to him-now-her.
So then Propecia AKA (generic) finasteride sounds like a darned-good choice for an off-label drug use, if you are female, contemplating sex-change to male, and worrying that your marriage might not survive such a sex change… Which is a strong possibility! Try this first, to see if maybe you’d like to stay female, before you make drastic changes…
Also see “The successful treatment of a gender dysphoric patient with Pimozide” at http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14365362_The_successful_treatment_of_a_genderdysphoric_patient_with_Pimozide
(I hope that the PC police won’t be bashing my door down soon, for my sins, in reporting this.)
Also I hope that the PROFOUNDLY un-Christian and un-libertarian HATERS will STOP mind-reading my mind with DEFECTIVE, UN-CALIBRATED tinfoil hate-hats!
Sad to say, wildlife has no “access” to any of these “fixes” to “endocrine disruptors”. One example: https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/40/3/438/379945 Alligators and Endocrine Disrupting Contaminants: A Current Perspective . . . I worry about being bitten by gators… Now I will ALSO need to worry about them dragging me off and forcing me to watch them conduct an “Alligator Drag Queen Story Hour”! (Do NOT pass this idea on! I am also in fear of the next pet-snatching-type groundless and boundless panic!)
Again, SQRLSY, you have shown several papers indicating that Drugs and other chemicals can cause physical sex changes.
None of those papers say that chemicals cause people to behave as if they are another sex while having NO OTHER physiological difference.
"“Off Label” uses of drugs for suppressing “gender dysphoria”"
Your choice of "suppressing" was deliberate, again because I assume you didn't want me to actually check. But on that site there is NOTHING that says a drug SUPPRESSES gender dysphoria. Indeed the page linked from that site, very clearly shows that treatment is NOT suppression, but "helping people live the way they want".
https://www.medicine.com/condition/gender-dysphoria
The purpose of the hormone drugs is to cause changes in the human body to better resemble the patient's desired sex. Again, you are proving exactly the opposite of your claim: that chemicals are shown to be causes of physiological changes in sex- of course once the physical body changes, that will change behavior. But there is still ZERO evidence provided that endocrine disruptors (or any chemical) could plausibly be causing Gender Dysphoria.
So in summary, none of your links provide ANY
...
Because whom you're attracted to is a quintessential value judgment, while what sex you are is a quintessential factual one.
Is what you're saying that delusions are real, because people really have them? That much I'll concede! Even easier if it's about gender, because gender is an arbitrary social thing, while sex is biologic fact. Considering the gender of the words for "lock" and "key" in both French and Spanish, one could easily decide the spontaneous order has arrived at the wrong division, if one equates genders to the sexes they're named for.
Homosexuality went from a crime to a mental illness to meh. This won't be any different.
Did clitoridectomy of children by parents go from a crime to meh?
Um, no, it won’t. Trying to change one’s sex is always a batshit crazy thing, and it always will be as it’s a biological impossibility.
It also doesn't change one's sex. The biology is the same. It is cosmetic surgery.
And here is the fucking stupidity of sarcs "neutral" talking point, as it is the same one Jeff and Mike tried years ago.
The surgeries and drugs are all attempts to change the bodies looks or chemical balance that are formed due to the expression of specific DNA markers tied to sex. They are literally advocating genetic expressions as sex are required for the "wrong" sex. It makes no fucking logical sense.
But sarc falls for the shit. Mostly because he hates conservatives.
It’s not impossible. It’s just far beyond our current and anticipated level of scientific knowledge. As fundamentally altering chromosomes to switch genders is not going to be feasible for a very long time.
I mean, it's certainly far beyond our current technique I will grant, but I'm not sure it's beyond what is anticipated to be achievable. I mean, effectively, for a male individual to become a female individual, you'd take the set of genes they have, grab the X chromosome his father contributed, either from the father himself or a sister, fast grow a mindless clone from that genetic admixture, and then perform a brain transplant. And then possibly use nanotechnology to slowly "Ship of Theseus" style replace all of the individual XY bearing brain cells, neurons, dendrites, etc, with XX bearing ones.
I don't think the actual sequencing and cell culturing is beyond where we are now, and I should think it may not be more than a couple of decades (if that) before we're able to grow cloned body parts at least. Lost an arm? We'll just grow you another one and surgically attach it! 😀
Fully swapping into a true XX female body when one was born in an XY male one is certainly rather more involved than that, but while still in the realm of science fiction, it's not unthinkable science fiction.
Personally, I'd consider it perfectly sufficient to get a replacement that didn't come from the factory with arthritis. :-/
See, and that's the motte and bailey, or possibly just "bait and switch" that has me in part so annoyed at the modern brand of "trans activists". They at first sold things as "there's a distinction between sex and gender" which, OK, fine. As long as we all recognize that those two things are distinct, then we'll be OK.
And now, they've very explicitly flipped that narrative over, and things which are actually sex segregated are being invaded by the same people who said it was all about "gender" not but ten years ago.
It's a fluke of the English language that it's "Men's and Women's Basketball" and not "Male and Female Basketball". But the actual separation is the latter one, and the whole point of having the separation is to give the females a chance to compete among themselves, not to make some fucktard in a dress feel better about himself.
"not to make some fucktard in a dress feel better about himself."
Maybe slightly off topic but can't we all at least stipulate that these dudes are just assholes?
Well, sure, but they're fucktarded assholes.
The government doesn't belong between parents and children or in medical decisions making one rule fits all mandates.
The state does have a duty to stop child abuse, though. Where we draw that line is the whole problem here. My best friend grew up in a baptist family and took beatings that would trigger CPS today, but at that time and place it was proper discipline. Most of us here probably took whippings that would range between taboo and illegal today.
Considering the population is nearly evenly divided on this issue my libertarian-ish instinct is to keep the state out of families and medical decisions and accept the risk that some children may be harmed as a price of freedom. I mean our policies are bombing children in Gaza so clearly "the children" is not the real issue here anyway.
Edit to add: Schools are arms of the state and should be silent on this issue. Apparently this is a real problem the west coast. And maybe nothing I say from my perspective is applicable out there.
I mean our policies are bombing children in Gaza
This is a ridiculous take. Our policies are supporting the bombing of Hamas in Gaza. Civilians, including children, are sometimes hit in the same strikes, an eventuality made all the more likely by Hamas hiding among civilians. I suspect you would find very few people in America who would support a direct position of intentionally bombing Gazan children. Personally, I would absolutely support a policy of Thanos snapping his fingers and dusting every member of Hamas without harming a single other Gazan. That option, however, is simply not on the table.
The IDF, since October 7th, has done a better job than any other military force in history at avoiding civilian casualties to the extent possible. And still it's never enough.
The point is, we're quite willing to risk harm to children to enact our preferred policies. It reveals MAGA values Israel over children and children over freedom. My priorities are the reverse of that.
So basically, Israel, which has shown historic levels of self restraint prosecuting their war on Hamas, is not allowed to fight back?
Fuck you, you democrat cunt. You should be forced to go live with those animals in Gaza.
I never said that. Sometimes conditions necessitate putting children in harms way.
Which is entirely different from deliberately causing harm to children.
Which is entirely different from deliberately causing harm to children.
It's somewhat different. Both are policies that harm children. They are different though. You favor the one that kills and maims children with missiles.
Please quote from where I said that.
Apparently, it was a poor assumption on my part that you favored Israel's attacks on Gaza based on your statement above. I take it back.
No. In Gaza, the intent is to kill an enemy combatant, and the question remains whether the attacker has taken the appropriate precautions to AVOID harm to the kid.
In the case of Gender Transition, the INTENT to permenantly neuter a child- to chop off their sexual organs and obligate them to a lifetime of medical intervention in order to sustain the irreversible procedure.
The intent distinguishes the morality of these actions.
Hi Overt.
Your argument assumes it is known that the policy of the state interfering in a parent-child-medical decision prevents more harm than it causes. Medical professionals don't agree with the concensus here.
I don't know the answer to that so I err on the side of freedom. I am personally opposed to transitioning children, but not to the point of making it a criminal issue.
Like I said before maybe things look a lot different on the west coast because here it's a non-issue unworthy of state intervention. I don’t know of a single medically trasitioning child or even an adult for that matter.
"Your argument assumes it is known that the policy of the state interfering in a parent-child-medical decision prevents more harm than it causes. Medical professionals don't agree with the concensus here."
No it doesn't. This is a basic moral framework of a trustee relationship. Parents create a child, and in doing so accept responsibility for that child until they reach the age of majority. Like any fiduciary, a parent has wide latitude for how they exercise this responsibility, but it is not unlimited. One of the biggest moral no-nos is exercising authority for the trustee that could be deferred to the trustee to make for themselves.
I will note here that your appeal to The Science!™ is not without fault. In fact there is MUCH disagreement on the subject. Several recent studies performed over the world show that minors undergoing "Gender Affirming Care" do NOT have better outcomes than minors who receive other care. And up until activists started running these departments, it was WELL ACCEPTED that the vast majority of children diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria no longer had it by the time they were adults. (Indeed, Dr Anderson quoted in the article above by Camp was essentially drummed out of USPATH because of the doctor's attempts to highlight this lack of scientific consensus and rigor in the clinics recommending kids get drugs or (eep!) the knife.)
BUT! It doesn't matter what the science says. A Parent can generally only make decisions for a kid while they are a minor. Committing them to a life of costly, experimental drugs and/or medical procedures is making decisions for the ADULT. They do not have this authority.
I REPEAT: Your pragmatism doesn't matter here. The morally correct course of action is for the parent to do EVERYTHING in their power to keep the child safe up until their adulthood. At that point the child can decide whatever they want. So. Therapy, counseling, love, care- all these things are on the table and morally acceptable. Making irreversible decisions for their adult-selves is not.
"Like I said before maybe things look a lot different on the west coast because here it's a non-issue unworthy of state intervention. I don’t know of a single medically trasitioning child or even an adult for that matter."
Yeah, I have watched 4 family friends go through this. And it is abhorrent. One father had to divorce his wife to keep his daughter off drugs (she ultimately wised up to this stuff, regretted social transitioning, and went to live with her father). Another father has confided his mortification to me that his daughter is now being irreversibly changed by testosterone treatments because he is unable to change his wife's mind.
This isn't about "Freedom" when cancel culture and activists in the schools (e.g. Agents of the State) have been weaponized to brainwash 12 year old girls.
As a libertarian, I still would believe that this shit is morally wrong (just as, as a libertarian, I have morally rationalized that abortion is morally wrong). That doesn't mean I want a State empowered with mass surveillance powers and punitive sticks to enforce these laws. As a libertarian, I'd insist that the State should stay the fuck away from my family in all cases- schools, CPS, whatever. But we don't live in that world, and we can't handwaive that away.
If we have an interventionist state, then the one that prevents parents from making immoral changes to a kids' body is far preferable to the one we have in California.
I am happy to give freedom where necessary- while drugs have many negative effects, they are not in and of themselves morally wrong. Nor is SOCIALLY transitioning your kid. But giving them drugs or signing them up for irreversible surgery is NOT morally right, and no science is going to change that (unless science can create a fully reversible procedure, I guess.).
Nor is SOCIALLY transitioning your kid.
Wrong. "Social Transitioning" is encouraging and participating in the delusion. It is objectively harmful.
Thank you Overt. A very reasoned response, as I expected from you. Much respect.
I will note here that your appeal to The Science!™ ...kids get drugs or (eep!) the knife.)
I make no appeal to "The Science." I know and agree with everything you wrote in the rest of that quote. That was my point. This is not a settled issue. When science crosses paths with politics the truth is unknowable, buried under junk science, confirmation bias and spun narratives. I place the burden of proof on the side wishing to remove freedom to prove thier case. I understand and accept the risks that sometimes people do horrible things with their freedom. Still I feel this is the overall best scenario; too much freedom.
We are tolerant of parents fucking up their kids in countless ways. You can raise your kid as a medically neglected Christian Scientist, psychologically tortured Scientologist, or in countless crazy cults. Inner cities are full of kids in terrible conditions that learn a culture of failure, and extreme exposure to criminal lifestyle and victimhood. You can raise a kid in poverty, you can feed them only junk.
We tolerate all of this which all creates permanent damage. We accept that on average parents will do better for their children than the state. We accept that some children will suffer the consequences of that freedom in horrible ways. We could do a N. Korea style take kids away from parents and have them raised by the state, if we weren't able to accept those risks.
You mention brainwashing in schools. Here I agree with you. This is 100% unacceptable. It is the antithesis of the freedom I'm arguing to preserve. This is the same state interference in parenting but in a worse more malignant way.
If the science was settled and showed what you saw anecdotally out west, that the vast majority of transitioned kids are worse off (which I acknowledge is quite possible) then I'm on board. Short of that, I err on the side of freedom.
VD Said:
"Wrong. "Social Transitioning" is encouraging and participating in the delusion. It is objectively harmful."
Oh, I agree that it is not a good idea. I also disagree with a lot of parenting techniques. I don't think it is proper to teach little girls to be ashamed of their bodies and to hide them under a hijab; or parents who let their kids stay up all night consuming tiktok.
However, if I am going to have freedom as a parent, it means we need to make clear moral lines where "Objectionable Parenting" crosses into abuse or negligence. I think I have articulated why I believe Transition procedures (hormones/surgery) are abuse, and puberty blockers are neglect (and also probably abuse). The girl I mentioned whose dad kept her off of drugs spent a year as a "they/them" and now has snapped right back to the person she was 3 years ago, and will be going to Junior Prom in a couple months like any other healthy girl.
QB Said:
" I place the burden of proof on the side wishing to remove freedom to prove thier case."
Then we should be in agreement. The Parents are wishing to remove the freedom of an Adult to make these decisions for themselves by inflicting on them permanent changes while they are a child that cannot be undone. Following your guidance means we should protect the child's freedom.
I generally agree with your calculation: when in doubt about the results, err towards freedom to choose. It is just that in this case, we have a 3rd party minor, so it isn't just about the freedom of the parent, it is about the freedom of the child.
"We are tolerant of parents fucking up their kids in countless ways...We tolerate all of this which all creates permanent damage."
You are confusing "how QB wants it to be" with "how it is". We *don't* tolerate actions of parents that permanently *damage* a child. The entire child welfare legal system is built around identifying, case by case, whether the actions of a parent should be constrained- and the results of that case often turn on whether or not permanent harm is being inflicted on the child.
Now, that system is imperfect, and in many cases abusive. Depending on the state you live in, its powers can inflict far more harm than the harms it is purported to prevent. But this system still exists.
The U.S. Supreme Court has long held that parental authority and religious freedom have limits when a child’s life or well-being is at stake. A key ruling in Prince v. Massachusetts (1944) stated: “Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free… to make martyrs of their children before they have reached the age of full and legal discretion when they can make that choice for themselves.” This sets the stage for state intervention when a child’s life is endangered.
Again, state by state, the boundaries for religious objections are different, but the important point is that we don't "tolerate" it. We agonize over the cases and set boundaries where it is believed that a parent's right to choose is infringing on the Child's right to live.
To make a long argument short (too late!), we have already conceded that the State is a whore, we are now just haggling price.
Don't get me wrong- I tend to agree with "the way QB wants it"- that we SHOULD have an absolute minarchy lacking the power to exercise prior restraint on parents raising their children. But we must acknowledge that such a government is a RADICAL departure from anything that has ever existed in the history of human governance. A State that is constrained from protecting a child's freedoms logically must be constrained from protecting any innocent bystander. And this calls into question the existence of any police force and 90% of regulations. (I know, don't tempt me!)
Suffice it to say, we are not moving to that world any time soon. So we have to "haggle the price" for the child welfare system that we have today. And again, we don't need the science to make a morally logical decision here: Regardless of the pragmatism at play here, parents do not have the RIGHT to make decisions that can be deferred until the child is an adult. It is ABUSE of their power to undergo any treatment that would obligate that adult in perpetuity (and transition drugs and surgery meet that definition as they are irreversible). Likewise, it is the Parent's DUTY to foster this child to adulthood. Therefore it is NEGLECT for the parent to do things intended to prevent their reaching adulthood (by definition, this is the intent of puberty blockers).
Overt,
You make a good case with lot of good points. I have no doubt if I was in California, I'd see it your way.
I think we agree on everything except how much harm we tolerate before we want the state to intervene, or more likely, how much harm we perceive is happening in the status quo. I won't be at all surprised if history proves me wrong and you right on this.
I've been on the wrong side of government interfering in medical matters, so I'll stubbornly stick to my guns here.
A refreshing, respectful debate between Overt and QB. Thanks, guys.
A refreshing, respectful debate between Overt and QB. Thanks, guys.
This is what I come to the Reason comments for, and why I enjoy them and stay here. Nothing wrong with good, civilized, honest debate.
Thanks! It's easy with Overt. That guy's a class act.
I guess we should outlaw kids riding in motor vehicles then. It’s the number one killer of kids. Can’t deliberately put them in harms way. You fvckin idiot
I'll chime in as well that this is exactly the type of debate I want to read in the comments, as others have already stated.
(no one will likely see this comment, as it's a two-day old article, but I had to speak up as that was a great exchange bw Overt and QB)
It wouldn’t change things too much. The ‘Palestinians’ (in reality, cut rate Jordanians) are heavily indoctrinated to hate non Muslims, especially Jews, from the time they’re toddlers. They even have the equivalent of Saturday morning cartoons that portray Jews as baby eating supernatural creatures.
Here is one of their cartoons. I wouldn’t be surprised if USAID funded this……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f34BBha6z2g
keep the state out of families and medical decisions and accept the risk that some children may be harmed as a price of freedom.
You're a monster.
Notice leftists like QB never consider the freedoms of children. A class still forming their identity. The freedom to not be permanently harmed as they do so.
Pretty rich coming from someone who attacks anyone concerned about blowing up Muslim children or sending children to shitholes if their parents don’t have papers with accusations of appealing to emotion. You don’t consider those children to be human. I’m actually surprised you fake concern over kids with gender dysphoria being that they will likely grow up to have politics you abhor.
Cite, idiot?
Are any of you opposed to sending families with kids back to shithole countries if their parents were illegal aliens?
They call that an appeal to emotion and laugh about it.
Because it IS an Appel to emotion…
No? How is that relevant?
Not everybody gets to live in America. And I certainly don't think it would be better to deport the parents and keep the kid. In fact, that strikes me as incredibly barbaric.
How is that relevant?
You're at the water. It's up to you to drink or not.
Sending children with their families back to where they came from, however grim the economy of said homeland, in no way equals the deliberate, permanent, medical mutilation of otherwise healthy children
That's a value judgement open to debate. That one is clearly worse than the other is not obvious to me.
Furthermore, one is granting freedom to parents to make medical decisions where they may harm thier child vs. deliberately deporting; taking away any choice from the parents forcing their child in to almost certain harm.
What values, you fucking psychopath? The right to not have your genitalia removed as a child? Where does that lie on your chart of values?
deliberately deporting; taking away any choice from the parents forcing their child in to almost certain harm.
OK, send me your address. I'll make sure that a poor couple with a kid knows that there's a place available where they can receive better living conditions. Or... would you deport them from your living room, despite that forcing their child in to almost certain harm?
And people wonder if think QB is White Mike.
Same false equivocations. Same sea lioning. Same worshipping of leftist "science" and morality.
Ok SGT.
I know you went full retard a long time ago, but your delusions are now taking over everything.
I think you are far too willing to assume that there are a limited number of idiots in the world. QB is far more coherent and well reasoned than White Mike, even if they are often vastly incorrect about the nature of reality.
You're at the water. It's up to you to drink or not.
Yeah, fuck you too buddy, you condescending piece of shit. At least I'm the entire horse and not just the horse's ass. I'm sorry we don't live in a world full of magic where we can ensure that only the genocidal psychopaths are harmed when they hide behind human shields. But that scene in Iron Man where Tony shoots just the bad guys with movie magic micromissiles isn't the world we live in. And the practical result of what you are pushing for there is to let the murderous genocidal rapists win simply because they are willing to hide behind children.
Seriously, are you actually advocating that the US take in literally every human being on the planet who lives in a situation that is materially worse than that of conditions here? Because spoiler alert: That is literally every single person on the planet who isn't part of the 0.01 percent.
Or is your position that we kidnap the children while kicking the parents out? That seems frankly evil to me, but hey, who knows at this point what people will push for.
Should everyone in a shithole country be allowed to move here?
It’s disingenuous to claim to be concerned about the children while mocking and attacking anyone who questions blowing Palestinians children to bits and sending children who are already here to shitholes.
But Jesse wouldn’t be Jesse if he was honest.
No, those are false equivalencies.
There's no comparison possible that can't be dismissed with this claim. Take care not to throw away a valid point because the situations are not identical.
When I first heard "whip" used in that metaphoric sense to mean essentially "spank", I was horrified because I thought they meant, you know, with actual whips. Maybe I should not have been, because my understanding now is that in the hand of a skilled whip wielder, it doesn't transmit much impulse. The tip that's actually making contact is supersonic, but the mass of it is very little.
Oh is "whipping" a regional thing?
In this case, whippings were carried out with a switch. Maybe that's regional too.
In my region, there is a spoken difference between a "whipping" and a "whuppin" even though they are spelled the same.
No. Fuck you. We don’t even let non adults get tattoos. Elective cosmetic drug treatments and surgery that permanently butchers a developing body are definitely illegal.
If this is a hill you want to die on, I am happy to oblige you and your fellow travelers. Then we can be done with your kind.
Oh geez an internet tuff guy.
Nah. It’s just that you democrats are huge pussies. So no need to be a tough guy.
Bet you think the earth is flat, eh?
Why are democrats so fucking stupid? There is a trend defending car bombing and vandalizing tesla because conservatives stopped buying bud light. They literally equate the two. I'm sure Jeff and sarc fall for this shit, but who else does?
Here is Kizinger.
https://x.com/EricLDaugh/status/1903202961276465153
There needs to be a Venn diagram overlap between Tesla dealerships and Koreans on rooftops.
I support Tesla Dealership Rooftop Koreans.
Twatter rots the brain.
Do you agree with his comparison?
Funny comment from someone who trolls reddit lol.
I think it's a stupid strawman. People understand the difference between not buying beer and setting cars on fire. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded or lying. In your case it's always safe to go with lying.
Still determined to never once use "strawman" correctly, I see.
He's just incapable of embarrassment. May be due to his stupidity though.
Pretty funny that he now hates X now that the entire left is raging against it though. Just don't call him a leftist. Trust blue sky and corporate media instead.
The constant inflix of booze helps too. My guess is that Sarc’s functional BAC is around .15%. Probably shooting up past .3% in the evening. Anything less than .15% and he starts getting the shakes.
If only Sarc knew what a strawman was. Sarc, here’s a hint: you use them all the fucking time, but obviously self-awareness is not a Sarc superpower.
Nor is cognitive analysis, honesty, integrity, or any sense of decency.
Not just fucking stupid, they're stupid fucking!
I wish I could even say that I'm surprised.
But once folks are at "Your words against the things I support are literal violence against me, but my actual physical violence against you for supporting things I find wrong is fine", then this sort of thing isn't exactly a stretch. I can pretty easily see how a mind that deranged already could equate "I stopped buying Bud Light because an advertising campaign of theirs offended me" with "I burned down a car dealership because the CEO of the manufacturer offended me".
Arson is a violent felony. In quite a few states, it is considered justified by the law to use deadly force to stop violent felonies. I would. of course, suggest that everyone who owns firearms and thinks that they might ever need to use one in self defense already have a lawyer on retainer. I am very specifically not suggesting that anyone go out with the explicit intent of shooting an arsonist.
We could do a favor for the people who think speech is violence, and show them what actual violence looks and feels like.
"I burned down a car dealership because the CEO of the manufacturer offended me".
That's what it is? Thanks for clarifying, because when I heard about these Tesla bombings, I thought they were by people who are horrified by electricity's replacing fueled machines!
OK, so it's not a war between gas & electric, but just anti-Musk?
Yeah, it's anti-Musk. Because he's a Nazi. Who is demonstrating what a Nazi he is by helping Donald Trump, that other super-Nazi, do what all fascists do when they come to power, and... reduce the size and scope of the government they gained control of.
Wait, I'm pretty sure that's not what I recall reading in my history classes about WWII...
Electricity is gasoline's slow witted bastard brother. It will never catch up but for some reason we have to sit waiting at idle.
There is something very wrong with you if you are not horrified by CPS forced to engage in political investigations.
CPS will be investigating you soon now... Whether you have real children, or metaphorical children!
(Hide the women, the whiskey, the children, and the metaphorical children; the witch-burners have been set loose!)
You are daft if you think government decisions are not all political. What do you think "politics" means anyway?
True! However, there is a difference between using politics to restrain murderers, and using politics to burn the witches!
Like in California? For not transing kids?
Reminder. Molly doesn't believe there were any assassination attempts. Molly is retarded.
MollyGodiva 2 days ago
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Mute User
Zero assassination attempts. The first one intentionally missed and the second one never even fired a shot.
I will say that someone tried to assassinate Trump if a MAGA will say that on Jan 6 a violent mob of Trump supporters attacked the capital.
Floyd rioters did it first and you didn't complain. That invalidates your criticism and makes whatever happened on J6 ok.
/Trump's retarded defenders
Sarc, no matter how hard you simp, Molly is not going to fuck you.
Plus, Molly is a guy. If Sarc is good with that, then keep trying, buddy!
He did attend a sausage party at a HALF MILLION DOLLAR house where his buddies were fitting their uppers into his lower. Is the lad still complaining about people not being non-binary?
Yeah, but they each had to pay him for it with a sixer.
Sarc has his pride.
a HALF MILLION DOLLAR house
Wow!
With ‘cool dudes’. Who were likely Jeffy, Pluggo, and some preteen boys.
So you ask someone to lie before you'll tell the truth.
You are a pathetic steaming pile of lying lefty shit.
70% of those who were convicted of J6 committed no violence or vandalism. The only 2 people killed were protestors.
Yet you'll deny 2 assassination attempts in protest? Lol.
In other words, you have no principles and are willing to lie if others will lie first.
You are consistent only in being an idiot.
Remember, "dysphoria" means a deep level of confusion and dissatisfaction. It does NOT mean that kids are in the wrong bodies. It does mean they have some emotional and psychological problems.
A serious question: are there any other types of dysphoria where the sanctioned treatment is complete agreement and indulgence in the patient's fantasies? Do we salute all the budding Napoleons? Should we put actual monsters under beds and in closets?
We have to encourage the anorexic to get weight loss surgery and not to eat. Telling them they are fat.
We need to encourage the guy who wants to be a paraplegic or cut off his arm to do it.
That guy would give his right arm to be ambidextrous.
The easy argument to make against this insanity is to compare it to the absurd example of kids who claim to be doggies and kitty cats. Anybody who wants to indulge that shit on any level is crazier than the dogboy and should be treated accordingly, and few would disagree.
I think the more appropriate comparison is anorexia, which is a true mental disorder that does exist (though it can also be a social contagion). I don't think many people have anything but sympathy for people with anorexia, but the way they express that sympathy is by trying cure or mitigate the disorder. They don't indulge it, force weight loss drugs onto the kid, tell them they DO look fat even though we can all see they look like a holocaust survivor, and then celebrate the parents for letting thier dying kid live her true life.
And no, not all people who transition will die or live in misery like and indulged anorexic would. But an alarming percentage do, leading one to believe that this desire to transition is all too often a passing fancy or a top-down solution made FOR confused children.
The most libertarian position I am willing to take on the issue is it should be legal, but only for adults, and only after loads of psychological screening and therapy. Oh, and I have no interest in taxpayers funding your cosmetic surgery. Nor is anyone required to call you what you are not. You can think they are assholes for not using your magic words, but people get called 'asshole' for lots of things.
As long as you're referring to anorexia nervosa. True anorexia is lack of appetite. Just keep the terminology straight.
One thing we don't do: Send CPS to investigate parents who give their kid an early 1800's French military bicorne hat.
Man. Just building up bookmarks.
Yes dumbfuck. Cutting off healthy tissue, using chemical castration drugs, etc is the same as a hate choice.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
We are not that far off.
https://www.newsweek.com/arkansas-bill-targets-gender-nonconforming-haircuts-kids-2048152
Did you read the actual bill or just the protests activist descriptions of it? Seems to be the latter.
And no it isn't close to banning hats you retarded fuck.
And not close to cutting off healthy tissue or prescribing life altering drugs you sick fuck.
You show more concern about foreigners having visas revoked than you do permanent harm of children. What a sick ideology you have.
Like I’ve been saying for over a decade here, this will all probably have to end by putting people like Tony Godiva into landfills. Or at least deporting them to Antarctica. People are slowly waking up to this fact.
How about if they conscript the kids on the street and borrow dad's guns to invade the next block? All good?
I have been trying to wrap my mind around this idiotic article and come up with some halfway useful response, but I can't; I cannot understand how any sane parents aren't horrified at the idea of butchering their children's genitals on the word of a teacher.
So I'm just going to repost my usual response.
It used to be dogma that —
* Homosexuality was genetic and unchangeable. This was why gay conversion therapy was banned, even when voluntary.
* Female genital mutilation was about the worst crime possible.
* Chemical castration was immoral, even when voluntarily requested by convicted rapists and pedophiles. It was also unhealthy.
* Children by definition were not adults and not allowed to decide they wanted to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol, or imbibe other drugs.
* Title IX was necessary to provide as many women's sports leagues as men had.
Now it’s dogma that gender is so fluid that pre-school kids must be believed when their teachers brainwash them into thinking their gender has changed, chemical castration is good AND safe when relabeled as puberty blockers, child gender mutilation is not just good but so mandatory that parents can be charged with child abuse for trying to block it, and third-rate male athletes can identify as women and beat everyone else in women's sports.
"I cannot understand how any sane parents aren't horrified at the idea of butchering their children's genitals on the word of a teacher."
You can't understand this because that does not happen.
You’ve been shown that it does indeed happen, retard.
Cuntard.
Even Emma sites a statistic that it's happening. Time to move on to "vanishingly rare" followed by "happens a lot but it's a good thing".
I can only hope it does not happen to you just as it did not happen to those children in the reports which you conveniently do not read.
It does happen. This has been proven to you more than once.
Stop lying.
because that does not happen
If you're going to lie make it plausible.
Didn't we already have WPATH disgrace itself - but we're going to accept USPATH's take on things? Don't we already have evidence that the majority of kids that think they're trans 'grow out of it'? Thus transing them at that age hurts them.
And no, puberty blockers are not consequence free. They do not just 'pause puberty' which you can then 'just restart' later.
I've been asking pro-mutilation people to show me the studies of young people who went on puberty blockers, but then later decided NOT to transition, and never took opposite-sex hormones nor had any "trans" surgery, and resumed normal puberty and development into adulthood, as if they had never taken the puberty blockers. Such people, of course, would be the proof that the blockers merely "pause" puberty and have no long-term effects. I have not been able to find any such studies. I believe that's because such people are so rare that such a study would not be possible, and therefore their claims that blockers harmlessly "pause" puberty are unfounded.
> Parents in this situation would do nearly anything to take away their children's pain and help them grow into happy, healthy adults.
So . . . they're going to indulge in their children's delusions?
Why is being 'transgender' so painful *today*? In the past it was a tiny fraction of a percent of people - mostly men. Now its so widespread there's *multiple* agencies dedicated to 'researching' it.
Well the research keeps proving them wrong so they won't stop until it proves them right.
Social contagion is a real thing. Funny how if you spend all day every day telling girls that straight kids are boring and mean, but trans kids are magical rainbow unicorns who must be loved, suddenly a lot of girls get the transies.
Lubbertarians think that everything is about their petty 'personal freedom,' but your freedom stops where my health and safety begin. Trans 'therapy' is harmful to children, even if the child, who has no real understanding, thinks he or she wants it. End of discussion, no matter how much lubbertarians and leftists want to bloviate on about it.
I agree about kids, but you need to define "safety" before I endorse your personal criteria. Unless you were a Covidian, and if so, fuck off.
Cheers to that.
How does gender confirming care for other people affect your health and safety?
Ask all the victims of trannie mass shooters.
^ This
If they want my tax (and private insurance) dollars for it?
They also want to compel your speech to play along with their cosplay fantasy.
Telling a hotdog they can get sliced up the middle and become a hamburger is only confirming their self delusion. It’s literally magical thinking.
There is nothing ‘lubbertarian’ about butchering children chemically or surgically.
"gender dysphoria" = histrionic personality disorder
Well to be fair to Emma she does present both sides to support her underlying thesis that parents should not be prevented from nor forced to mutilate their children. Reason libertarians have been awkwardly dancing around this subject for quite a while and their leftist progressive instincts have forced them into a position where they support an obvious violation of the NAP, mutilating minors, by claiming they are defending the liberty of parents. Libertarianism is, ya see, complicated. So Emma articulates the both sides theory and we all collectively shrug and decide, well as long government stays out of it it's all good. This is of course nonsense. Munchhausen by proxy is a well documented mental illness that almost always includes unneeded and dangerous medical interventions and emotional abuse by a parent. Prosecuting these people has never been controversial or anti libertarian. Making life altering changes to a child's body on the whim of the parent or expert (like this guy? https://thepostmillennial.com/leading-trans-doctor-insists-non-verbal-autistic-minors-can-consent-to-sex-change-can-draw-their-feelings?utm_campaign=64506&s=09) is violence whether the state prohibits, allows, or demands it. The US is quickly becoming the outlier in the civilized world by allowing this Mengele eugenics bullshit to continue but the Reason libertarians will, as usual, be the last to know.
Emma's stance is no different than that of a MAP. Can find doctors and psychologists who will claim sleeping with children is fine. It doesn't make their stance libertarian or good.
Emma is a far left neo Marxist. She does not identify as a libertarian. This is why KMW hired her, and also why Boehm. Sullum and Shackford still have jobs here.
Well said. Of course, the LP is dead practically speaking. And whatever alleged libertarianism Reason represents is as appealing to me as Team R and Team D. But for those few of us who still cling to classic libertarian ideals, your sentiment is irrefutable.
At the risk of triggering the room, I will comment on this. "The US is quickly becoming the outlier in the civilized world by allowing this Mengele eugenics bullshit to continue but the Reason libertarians will, as usual, be the last to know." I can't see how this doesn't also apply to abortion. We are about the only civilized country that allows abortion up to birth, and you can't magic your way out of the fact that around 5-6 months in the baby is just as much a viable human insisde the womb as it would be outside the womb. It's a unique situation because there are two intertwined parties, and I absolutely defer on life of the mother, etc. But not acknowledging thar their are two parties with rights involved is unscientific and unlibertarian.
" I can't see how this doesn't also apply to abortion. We are about the only civilized country that allows abortion up to birth, and you can't magic your way out of the fact that around 5-6 months in the baby is just as much a viable human inside the womb as it would be outside the womb."
Don't really want to go there but I can't argue with your logic. It's almost like libertarianism has become anti human.
Munchhausen by proxy is a well documented mental illness
The logic behind the documentation of mental illnesses has proved to be ... for lack of a better word - fungible. One mans illness becomes another mans 'truth'. Then we cash out the diagnosis of one for another.
We have seen so many psychopathologies 'evolve' as psychology outs itself as pseudo science.
Soon we will see that Munchhausen by proxy is a good thing!
Agree psychology is a pseudo science. But crazy parents fucking up their kids with the help of medical professionals are a real thing.
"Reason libertarians...and their leftist progressive instincts"
Is that actually a thing??! I mean such that you could say there are "Reason libertarians" (possibly identified by leftist prog tendencies) outside of the bloggers? Any more than it makes sense to think about Manx-cat-owning libertarians?
What I mean is, I don't think this is a sincere school of thought. I think it's just libertarian writers who've been paid to take a certain slant that's sometimes at odds with what they really think.
Sadly, no. "Left libertarian" is a thing, or at least there exists a group of people who claim the label.
r/libertarian thinks this unironically.
I'm not fan of CPS but it bears repeating: There is no such thing as trans kids.
Kids in Transnistria and Transylvania hardest hit.
I find Harriet Hall to be a generally good and careful writer:
https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA698308723&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=10639330&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=nysl_oweb&isGeoAuthType=true&aty=geo
So? And given your history of dark web CP links, why the Hell would anyone here click this suspect link you provided?
They also shared that they told the investigator that they had called CPS about other students they suspected were suffering from abuse at home, but received no response
How unsurprising.
Did anyone actually manage to read the whole thing?
EC; dr
Same. I would only read her drivel if I swallowed poison and needed to induce vomiting.
I think I did but I kinda spaced out in the middle somewhere so don't quote me.
As a boy growing up I had two older sisters. I would play with their Barbies, play "house" and "dress up" and let them and their friends put make up on me. I also had a pink shirt this I wore all the time.
I sure am glad my parents let me KEEP MY DICK!
This is freaking insanity.
I'm glad they let you keep it. Hopefully the formaldehyde is holding up.
*SNERK!*
Morgan Davis started this job because he wanted to protect kids.
Red flag.
The 52-year-old had been an investigator with the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) for less than a year and had come out as a transgender man shortly before starting his new job.
Super duper red flag. Blaring klaxon.
A "number of so-called 'sex change' procedures constitute child abuse
Yes, intentionally trying to physically or emotionally mutilate your children DOES IN FACT constitute child abuse.
According to Davis, it originated with a DFPS employee with a transgender child who was forced to report on her own family.
Go back to my very first red flag.
If you are grooming a "transgender child" (which there is literally no such thing), you have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER being in the DFPS. You belong in a JAIL.
Most of us get into [this line of work] because you wanted to be the protection that you didn't have.
Well that explains a lot.
"I had my nicest bowtie on," he says
Fag.
Davis was struck by how normal and harmonious this family seemed.
See also: the Zulock "family."
Davis had found a functional, loving family whose only error—in the eyes of the state of Texas—was that the parents had sought and received controversial but legal treatments for their child.
Which means DO YOUR JOB.
Save the child, and put together a case that will help the State imprison his abusers.
Or, controversial, I know, maybe let a few details leak to some folks with a pickup truck and a length of rope.
The plaintiffs described nerve-racking home visits and investigations that dragged on despite turning up no evidence of abuse or neglect.
EXCEPT FOR THE "TRANS" CHILD, WHICH YOU JUST BLATANTLY IGNORED.
FFS, it's like animal control being called about your vegan cat and ignoring the fact that we all know who's making the decisions about that cat's diet. NOT the cat.
Whitley is well cared for and Whitley's every need is being met.
LIE and LIE.
a particularly fraught element of the debate focuses on gender-dysphoric kids
No such thing. The LGBT Pedos invented it, groomed it, and turned it into a social contagion exploiting adolescent/teenage natural insecurities and self-doubts and fears, and offering HUGE rewards and affirmations to those who sign on.
Just like any other cult does.
And worse, you then bring the parents into the fold who are desperate to virtue signal and receive their own affirmations - who then happily pimp their children out to this same cult in return for such affection and praise.
I am 100% dead serious here: anybody involved in the overtly predatory LGBT Pedo movement at this point needs to be rounded up and locked in sanitariums with doors that only open once and then have no mechanism whatsoever to ever be opened again. They are not even TRYING to hide what they are anymore.
Anderson, herself a transgender woman
SO, A CRAZY PERSON. Who you are citing as an authority because apparently you can ONLY FIND crazy people who will support your narrative.
"There's pretty widespread acknowledgment that some of the gender clinics, at least in the United States, do a very poor job of assessment," Anderson says.
Yea, and don't think there's not a huge financial incentive in that. "You'll give me thousands and thousands of dollars to chemically, and then later physically castrate your child? Cool, I'll take that, because I am a horrible greed monster that does not care slightly about the health and welfare of those I oathed to do no harm."
Sarah (not her real name) and her husband were initially very supportive when their 12-year-old daughter came out as trans.
Drink the Kool-Aid, kid. Like we did.
The couple, who lived in California
Because of course.
"We were told the famous line: 'Would you rather have a live son or a dead daughter?'" Sarah says. "And when your kid is suicidal, nothing [else] matters at that point.
Toxic Empathy.
I thought the people in the field knew better than me and was desperate and terrified to lose my daughter."
Tell me again that the entire LGBT Pedo cult aren't literal terrorists.
shifting gender identity
*facepalm*
*rubs temples*
"I'm a boy! Now I'm a girl! No, I'm a boy again. Can I be a cat? Meow."
Seriously, I'm mocking - I'm even hatefully mocking, I'll cop to that - but how does ANY reasonable person with a functioning rational brain sign onto ANY of this OBVIOUS "gender" nonsense?
Are you THAT gaslit? Are you THAT detached from reality? Are you so desperate to PROVE TO OTHERS that you're on "their team?" So much so that you're willing to jump down the rabbit hole and go along with whatever nonsense you see and hear for sake of being "tolerant" and "inoffensive?" Or woke?
And if so, we need to have a talk about what's wrong with YOU as well.
The vast majority of the parents who find themselves in these difficult situations sincerely want what's best for their children.
What's best for their children is a grounding in objective reality. Period. That necessarily excludes any and all of this "gender identity" garbage.
Well done, sir. You win the pony.
No shit. Hell, I'll buy you an entire pony farm. And one of those new My Little Ponies that turn into hot anime bitches for some reason. (Look it up. Or don't.)
Look it up.
NOPE!
+1
Excellent. You missed that the parent is also using improper English "...knew better than me..."
But yes, you nailed it. BTW I'm forgiving of parents who don't know what to do. But parents who boast about having a trans child should be publicly horsewhipped.
My favorite are the "parents" who boast multiple "trans" children. Like, we're just going to totally ignore the statistical likelihood of that, especially balanced against centuries of historical data that plainly illustrates that this is a very very new phenomenon that only seems to exist in overly decadent first-world (post-)modern societies that have shaken off any notion of a moral compass because they think The Picture of Dorian Gray is an instruction manual on the "virtues" of hedonism.
Social contagion. That's all it's EVER been. All the way back to just basic homosexuality. Not a gender, not an orientation, not a inescapable biological attraction. A lifestyle choice based on a sex kink, and an entire identity built solely and exclusively around said sex kink.
We should have never stopped letting them out of the mental hospitals. And now they're openly preying on the kids.
The kid who has been hoodwinked (by the media, by pop culture, by their peers, by their schools), with parents who are their enablers - whether they've been terrorized into it (terrible) or seek to enrich themselves off it via virtue signal creds or attention whoring (going straight to Hell); the LGBT Pedos who quickly step in to assist in grooming and indoctrinating because they're predatory monsters who both want to fill their ranks and take advantage of the natural confusion of adolescence for their own depraved sexual desires and therefore need to be forcibly removed from civil society forever; and the profiteers that are the medical "professionals" and the media/cultural influence lapdogs peddling this nonsense and getting rich off it.
The LGBT Pedo is - and always has been - societal cancer. We are past the point of containment and treatment. We're now in immediate emergency amputation territory with them.
Do you think the "left" would now be ready to classify certain individuals as "authentic Aryans" based on some social characteristic that betrays a supposed underlying genetic grouping?
Nobody knows what the "left" will ever be ready to do because literally everything with them is impulsive social/moral/cultural relativism. They flip on a whim based on whatever their oh-so-precious feelings dictate, because they have no rational capacity whatsoever.
I LOVE ELON MUSK AND HIS ELECTRIC CARS. >>a few months later>> I HATE ELON MUSK BURN EVERYTHING I SAID I LOVED.
The left is literally insane. There's just no two ways about it. Their minds are so fundamentally fractured, that there's no reasoning with or understanding them at all.
And the LGBT Pedos are pouncing on that particular weakness of theirs, for the singular purpose of grooming and preying upon children. Because that's what LGBT always and ever has been. That's always been their singular goal. Get and rape the children.
But at least John here some years ago fingered their tendency or organizing principle: to disrupt society. To keep disrupting understandings, so that one is never on firm ground. For its own sake — not to work toward any improvement, but just to maintain perpetual discomfort and confusion. So there's some method to their madness.
That's not "method." It's incidental benefit.
It's like dealing with 4yr olds and their eating habits.
"What is this?"
"Chicken."
"I don't like it."
"We had the same thing a week and a half ago."
"Well I don't like it now."
"Why not, nothing's changed."
"I JUST DON'T."
Petulant little pants pissers.
"Anderson, herself a transgender woman..."
So he's a guy that likes to dress up as a woman? That's called a "transvestite" and you don't call a transvestite "she" just because he likes to play dress up.
Again, for the record:
Men are men.
Women are women.
Men cannot become women.
Women cannot become men.
The earth is not flat.
Deal with it.
^^^ Trivial philosophical error left to be corrected as an exercise for the reader
You're saying the Earth IS flat?
It's shrike. He doesn't want you to get near children aren't adults so he can continue to look at his child porn without fear.
No, fuckwit. What happened to your brains? I seldom agreed with you but you were a principled conservative once.
And you've always been a Marxist fuck ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The statements aren’t philosophical…
Indeed not But that doesn't mean that a philosophical error cannot be made.
As it seems people don't know any philosophy nowadays, the trivial error is assuming that a a word's definition exhaustively describes the natural world - here, people have a definition of "man" and "woman" and make the trivial error of thinking that therefore in the real world all humans are categorically and unambiguously one or the other - based not on the real world but on definition. Biologists have struggled for decades with what constitutes "species" for the same reason but without the politics.
"
in the real world all humans are categorically and unambiguously one or the other
Correct, with only extremely rare exceptions.
based not on the real world but on definition.
No, that's based on the real world.
Biologists have struggled for decades with what constitutes "species"
But never have they struggled with the difference between male and female.
Of course, it could be more like one of the dorms on my college campus where...
The men are men,
The women are too, and
The sheep are nervous.
In Scotland, men are men and sheep are nervous. Old joke. Can also use Texas.
Damn it! Need to refresh moar
Why do the Scottish wear kilts?
Sheep can hear zippers a mile away.
Men are men and sheep can use Texas?
There's also the old sailors' version: at sea, the men are men and the boys sleep lightly.
Because "trans" isn't a thing. In the real world, anyway.
We've had a multi-year mass hysteria about it though. And the world is now starting to wake up from it.
I'm sure that *is* going to be painful, for some. And some folks will double and triple down. It's going to be ugly.
Imagine how difficult it would be to admit you've made a horrible mistake after going through the pain and expense of medical "transitioning". There's really no turning back, medically or psychologically.
How about a parent who did this to their child? There is no way they can ever admit to what they've done without committing suicide.
Leaving the child an orphan?
And better off.
O/T - oh my, the box office returns and attendance projections for Snow Woke. Wow.
That was more than a quarter billion they spent trying to birth this progressive/marxist lovechild abomination into existence. I wonder how many will jump out a window by Monday morning.
Where's USAID when they need it?
ya hate to see it
Ron should write a piece on the rise and fall of the Nobel-winning medical protocol that saved thousands of Boomer kids from dysphoria and despair.
He could begin by asking the new Secretary of Health how his aunt's lobotomy worked out.
The plaintiffs described nerve-racking home visits and investigations that dragged on despite turning up no evidence of abuse or neglect.
The very existence of a so-called "transgender child" is evidence of potential abuse or neglect.
This girl was 15 and so likely she was just trying to be cool. Trans is the goth of our time.
Despite a few victories for families investigated by CPS, the broader public fight over how to address gender dysphoria in minors—
There is literally no such thing .
The 52-year-old had been an investigator with the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) for less than a year and had come out as a transgender man shortly before starting his new job
Good lord are there any normal people ever involved in these stories or is it all crazy trannies making a scene?
Even before reading that, and just glancing at the photo, my first thought was "there is something off about that dude".
If you cannot even figure out what 'gender' your child is that's a pretty solid concern for being psychotic and mentally incapable of raising children. Throw on top parental mandated DRUG-ABUSE and I really haven't got much sympathy left.
Whree would your article be if you admitted gender dysphoria is bullshit , or that evey major study shows negative effects to gender change ?
And about the suicide thing....If you let your kids grow up with no input morally or spiritually except public school, then suicide is more a matter of how sensitive your child is, and you didn't notice their senstivity. Everyone can admit the seriousness even if on different sides of what the seriousness is ---- but that means government should be completely out of it. On balance have any of the great solutions been anything less than disaster: no-fault divorce , gay pride, freedom of religion for satanic cults, silence on premarital sex, The tragedy of gay 'parents'
I heard Tom Brokaw talking about is book The Greatest Generation --- it wasn't in the book but he asked a great number of his interviewees "what is the greatest change you've seen in your life?" expecting moon landing, computers, something like that....he said that overwhelmingly they said "DIVORCE
okay, lazy,stupid, immoral poorly-spoken Biden !!!
The clear and obvious conflict of interest in allowing this individual to investigate the family is simply not mentioned, which seems crazy to me.
This individual didn't 'start as an investigator, and leave as an activist' they were an activist from the second they decided to take up the case of a coworker friend and attempted to bend the results of the investigation to their preferred outcome.
That is not the work of an impartial investigator, it's the work of someone with an ideological opinion on that investigation that is seeking a preferred outcome.
The fact they allowed an investigator who knew the family to conduct the investigation in the first place was totally unethical, and it's little surprise that the investigator themselves behaved unethically after taking up the case.
I'd say the same damn thing if they put an investigator on the case who was vehemently against trans people as a matter of course. That isn't impartiality, and without that the investigation can and should be called into question. Putting a trans person on the case was a bad move, and that should have been obvious to everyone including the trans investigator that from the outset of the investigation was looking to skew things in favor of their coworker (one conflict of interest) who had children who identified as trans just like the investigator (two conflicts of interest).
this transgender nonsense needs to stop. the kids need mental health treatment. once they turn 18 then they can pursue their delusion.
The best solution would be to ban all transitions for humans younger than 18. When humans reach the age of majority they can do as they please as long as they can afford it. No social transitioning, which is a form of conversion therapy.
The best solution is for the government to stay out of private medical decisions between patients, families and doctors.
PS: This is a libertarian website, hon - we don't support "bans".
The grotesque, perverted solution is to call the poisoning and mutilation of children "medical" and leave children to the depredations of parents and doctors who mean them intentional permanent harm.
POS: This is a libertarian website, bitch. We are not amoral savages.
This is a libertarian website, and libertarians run the gamut between principled republicanism, minarchy and anarchy.
If an action violates the NAP, libertarians generally support the government's intervention and there is a valid question of what that intervention looks like- from prior restraint ("bans") to punitive measures.
PS: A parent who mutilates their child or doses them with drugs that permanently damage the body's ability to develop has violated the NAP, sweetheart.