The Feds' Legal Arguments for These Deportations Are Laughably Weak
A Trump administration official admits that there is little specific evidence tying some deportees to any crime—and argues that the lack of evidence should be taken as proof of criminality.

The Trump administration maintains that more than 200 people deported last weekend to a prison in El Salvador were criminals with ties to a dangerous Venezuelan gang.
But legal documents filed in federal court as part of the government's attempt to clarify the legal basis for those deportations seem to raise more questions than they answer—and indicate that some, if not many, of the deportees were not the threats that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) claims they are.
In some cases, those individuals were deported simply for being in the same car or house as other suspects. In others, a Trump administration official admits that there is little specific evidence tying some deportees to any crime—and then, incredibly, argues that the lack of evidence should be taken as proof of criminality.
"The lack of a criminal record does not indicate they pose a limited threat," wrote Robert L. Cerna, an acting field office director for ICE, in a sworn affidavit filed in federal district court in Washington, D.C., on Monday night. Cerna goes on to write that "the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose. It demonstrates that they are terrorists with regard to whom we lack a complete profile."
That's a laughably weak argument. Cerna is arguing that the Trump administration has the power to deport any immigrant suspected of having ties to the Tren de Aragua gang, even if the evidence is thin and never proven in any court.
Imagine siting on a jury and being told by the prosecution that there would be no evidence presented of any crimes being committed, but that you should simply take the prosecutors' word that the suspect seems like a bad guy. Any reasonable juror would vote to acquit—if the judge didn't laugh the prosecutors out of court first.
Or simply flip the argument around. Would Cerna take evidence of criminality as proof that someone was not a criminal? Of course not.
No wonder the Trump administration was in such a rush to bypass due process for these deportations.
To be fair, the affidavit also contains enough details of crimes committed by Tren de Aragua gang members to conclude that at least some of those deported over the weekend probably got what they deserved. That doesn't excuse the rushed, unlawful process—if anything, it should only stress the importance of due process as a way to sort out the real threats from everyone else.
Instead, Cerna's affidavit paints the picture of a Trump administration and ICE management that were determined to deport as many people as possible, no matter how tenuous the connection to Tren de Aragua or any crime.
Near the end, Cerna notes that some of the suspects arrested and deported by ICE were simply caught up in the immigration dragnet because they happened to be near other of ICE's targets.
"According to a review of ICE databases, numerous individuals removed were arrested together as part of federal gang operations, including two individuals who were in a vehicle during a Federal Bureau of Investigations gun bust with known [Tren de Aragua] members; four individuals who were arrested during the execution of an Homeland Security Investigations New York City operation; and four individuals who were encountered during the execution of an arrest warrant targeting [Tren de Aragua] gang member, all of whom were in a residence with a firearm and attempted to flee out the back of the residence," he writes.
Could those individuals have been engaged in some sort of illegal activity with known gang members when they were apprehended? Sure. But that's exactly the point of immigration courts and the criminal justice system: to sort out those tricky questions before someone is locked up, deported, or both.
The logic on display in Cerna's affidavit is fundamentally at odds with due process or any sense of limited executive powers when it comes to prosecuting crimes. It runs counter to President Donald Trump's own campaign promises about restoring law and order. It is, in short, the sort of thing that only the most committed bootlicker could even attempt to stomach.
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Boehm analysis from leftist sites is always laughably weak.
You ever find it odd that your opponents are the ones citing actual laws, precedent, and regulations eric?
Don't worry. The leopards will never eat YOUR face.
Do you keep them in the back seat because the bear is in the trunk?
I'm just still confused on who controls classification clearances. Jeff won't answer.
Clearly it must be a federal judge.
Clearly.
Weird hypothetical questions invented by Lying Jeffy that have zero chance of happening? Worth discussing.
Actual clearly unconstitutional restraining orders that have already happened? SHUT UP TROLL!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leopards_Eating_People%27s_Faces_Party
So all you have is a false equivalency, Jeffy? Pathetic.
Your commitment to living up to your handle is perversely impressive.
What about bears in trunks?
Careful girl, you’re starting to gobble out the wrong hole. The whole world is not conservative vs liberal, right vs left, or black vs white.
Thanks Act Blue. Your concern is noted.
EB;dr
He's gone Full Sullum.
You never want to go Full Sullum.
stick to econ. oh wait.
He is a comms major. And he is even shit at communication.
the psychopath I was married to briefly in the 90s was a comms major and clearly had no idea how to communicate
Imagine siting on a jury
Immigration isn't decided by juries. All the immigration judges are also executive employees.
Write to congress to change the laws if that upsets you.
Eric still doesn't know the actual laws or regulations, like Jeff, despite them being cited here quite often the last few days. Including judicial analysis of said regulations by the USSC itself.
Maybe we SHOULD be using juries to oversee all government processes. You seem to be satisfied simply shrugging your hands, hoping for the impossible (Congress is already bought and paid for - your vote has never mattered), and allowing the cognitive dissonance provided to you by voting ('consent of the governed') to approve of a police state where you are simply - the object, the governed.
>>juries to oversee all government processes.
you must have never faced a jury.
Compared to voters?
If voters don't, why would you think juries would?
Voters spend less time weighing their decision. They are not serious and prefer to join a bandwagon. They are an incompetent joke who are totally manipulated by propaganda. They ask no questions because there is no one to answer anything.
The same person as a juror is magnitudes more capable and serious.
Cite?
Trump just won with a jury of 80 mil. By promising to deport illegals
Trump barely squeaked into a second term. And even if he had won this magical, mythical mandate he claims that still doesn't justify lawless actions.
Stupid idea.
Having immigration being jury's duty would very quickly convert a lot of people to closed borders, but by all means, aid my cause.
Juries would not just be individual cases but also judging process. That is where they could put themselves as the object. It is the reason juries exist. Why a 'jury of peers' is such a meaningful phrase. There but for the grace of God...
Oh my mistake, you want to transform jury duty from an major inconvenience into mandatory civil service.
Retard.
"Juries would not just be individual cases but also judging process."
This is comical.
As soon as some dipshit starts bleating the "open borders" lies I know I have no reason to take them seriously.
In some cases, those individuals were deported simply for being in the same car or house as other suspects.
Oh come on. They were riding around in a car with violent gang thugs. They are obviously guilty by association! That justifies not only deporting them, but sending them to the most notorious prison on the continent!
Only leftists support due process.
Define due process.
That’s when you keep people in prison for years without charging them.
No no, you have it entirely wrong.
Right-wingers totally support due process. Especially when that "due process" consists entirely of "because I said so, that's why".
Heard some right-wing radio today and they were talking about how a law that authorizes the removal of citizens of a government our government is in a state of war with clearly gives Trump the authority to deport suspected gang members. It is so evident that no one can argue against it.
See, creative interpretation of the law is only bad when it's done against Trump. When Trump does it, then it's unquestionably right and how dare anyone disagree.
'creative interpretation of the law'
Why do you putzes always allude to violations of some law but never cite the law? You are both arguing with yourselves. And if your posts are an accurate representation of what kind of people you are, you're both horrible and not to be trusted around children. Seriously, piss off.
Reminder. These 2 supported every novel legal theory pushed by the left like in new york. Then have the audacity to claim clearly supported regulations and interpretation as creative.
They are utterly dishonest morons.
You know that I did not support the "34 felonies" case. Then again you are also allergic to honesty.
You are dishonest about everything. Almost everything you post is either a strawman or projection, usually both.
Agreed. I still don't understand why.
To Jesse, criminal activity is now the same as "irregular warfare" and justifies using the Alien Enemies Act, even against people who were never proven to have engaged in that 'warfare'. That is a totally honest way to interpret the law.
However, when it's done against Trump, that's wrong. Because it's diffe(R)ent.
Just look at Lying Jeffy go.
“Why do you putzes always allude to violations of some law but never cite the law?”
It’s called lying. It’s what they do.
Eric's opinion is laughable. The statute doesn't require proof of crime or a jury trial. Maybe a shitty law but stop imagining that it is a violation of due process. It is due process.
The law DOES require determination of deportability (a COURT action) before any deportation can occur. See the other thread where I cited the specific section of the law
And who does the law give that power to JewFree? Hint. It has been cited for more than a week on roundup threads.
You didn't cite the applicable sections that have been in these orders retard. Lol.
Ok Boehm - let's get on the record. We bring them all back and you are responsible for them. They do anything, you are to blame.
You signing up for that you laughable, writer? You and your lefties who want to defense gangs but not the victims.
You do realize coming in illegal means you can be deported right?
I believe it was Grassley who mentioned that there is already a law on the books that can be invoked making any petitioner to these courts for a TRO responsible for all damages or costs from a TRO. Time to start requiring billions in escrow for these petitions.
Bad people don't deserve due process. The guy riding around in the car with a gang member deserves to be sent to a foreign prison.
Exactly. And people who criticize Israel don’t get speech rights. Right are only extended to popular people with popular opinions.
Uppity college students who think Israel is engaging in genocide deserve to have their visas revoked and sent to a black site prison in a third-world shithole country. It is the only just punishment.
Just like firing someone for not getting the Covid vax or shutting down their business. Or how about making everyone participate, including children, in all this sick sexual crap. Lets just genocide the Israelis for Palestinian rights, or something. You two are evil dipshits. The current administration is actually following the law retards.
Another lie.
Read Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, both of you.
In some cases, those individuals were deported simply for being in the same car or house as other suspects.
You mean like an apartment complex that was forcibly taken over?
If they were citizens, this wouldn't be an issue, dumbass.
That was my first thought as well. And at this point I’m going to need to see specific evidence of their claims otherwise. Open borders advocates have proven themselves to be dishonest for their cause.
From "cut spending" to "allow illegals to live here and tie up courts to tens of billions of dollars a year including gang members."
Yet National Review, City Journal , and American Spectator think what you are alleging is pure crap.
EG https://www.city-journal.org/article/mahmoud-khalil-arrest-columbia-deport-hamas
Take note, because the common complaint about Reason and LIbertarianism is illustrated by this article: Okay to send silent pray-ers to jail for what is going on in their heads but bad and illegal to take a longime vocal and avowed hater here on our goodwilll and make him act like a decent human being.
Golly gee. Well let's just abdicate all decisions to a bunch of journalists. Maybe they can work together with elected officials and big donors - and leave you out of the loop entirely. Or maybe they can throw shit on you and make you believe that you are part of the in-group too.
This is the comment section of an article written by a reporter.
A Trump administration official admits that there is little specific evidence tying some deportees to any crime—and argues that the lack of evidence should be taken as proof of criminality.
And here's the real kicker! NOBODY IN AMERICA CARES!
We just want them gone! We don't care even slightly how it happens anymore. We just. want. them. GONE.
I'm frankly surprised they haven't put up bounty boards yet. I'd have put up bounty boards.
"Hey, I found a border jumper. That's $100."
"Actually, he was born here as an anchor baby. So, $50."
"Cool."
"You know of anyone he's associated with?"
"I'll let you keep the $50 if I can waterboard him for an hour."
"Cool. Want to borrow my bucket?"
Ahh, I love 2025.
We just want them gone! We don't care even slightly how it happens anymore. We just. want. them. GONE.
Sadly you are probably right when it comes to about 90% of Americans. They won't stick up for the liberties of others because who gives a shit about them anyway. Only those weirdos called libertarians actually give a damn about the liberties of everyone, even the 'bad people'.
It doesn't take a genius to recognize, however, that permitting the government to violate their liberties makes it easier for the government to violate your liberties in the future.
Why would illegal immigrants have ANY liberties?
Get.
The,
Fuck.
OUT.
I will never understand the wing of "libertarianism" that wants to eradicate the US border.
"Why would illegal immigrants have ANY liberties?"
Because the Constitution says so. Read it some time.
"wants to eradicate the US border."
The US had no limits in immigration from anywhere in the Western Hemisphere from 1776 to 1965. Basically, open borders. Had the pre 1965 law remained in effect we would have no border crisis today.
Foreign policy is solely the President's concern.
This keeps being blindly repeated by retards. The USSC had spoken on this issue many times. But you retards just say anything no matter how wrong.
What planet are you on? The 1965 law is what opened UP immigration. The Emergency Quota Act of 1921 and the Immigration Quota Act of 1924 is what closed off immigration to Catholics, spics, greaseballs, slanteyes, kikes, and everyone else who came tromping through Ellis Island making it smell like ethnic food and deemed unsuitable by either the sons and daughters of the American Revolution (my ancestors) or the KKK and white nationalists (your trailer trash inbred cousins).
Before that bilateral consular agreements is what allowed MUTUAL migration (even if it was all one way) and ship/port documents which required them to verify identity/origin or not allow offloading of that migrant.
The immigration acts of the 1920s saved this country from catastrophe. It's too bad they were enacted so late.
The Immigration Act of 1924 limited the number of immigrants allowed entry into the United States through a national origins quota. The quota provided immigration visas to two percent of the total number of people of each nationality in the United States as of the 1890 national census. It completely excluded immigrants from Asia.
"The US had no limits in immigration from anywhere in the Western Hemisphere from 1776 to 1965. Basically, open borders."
The US was also not shoveling BILLIONS of dollars to NGOs that were going to foreign countries and importing people. You also didn't have modern infrastructure that could sustain millions of people traveling into the area month after month.
What a fucking shock: when outside constraints (international transportation infrastructure) limited immigration, there weren't tons of laws trying to constrain immigration.
Can you point to it please?
Really? Better look up Operation Wetback,
Why would illegal immigrants have ANY liberties?
Liberty is a universal birthright of every human being.
Extreme example: Would the government have the just authority to murder every illegal immigrant? Answer: no, because that would violate their fundamental liberties. If a government were to do that, it would be the government which would be acting wrongly.
I would be happy to have a discussion about which liberties foreigners ought to have recognized by their host government. But to claim that they have NO liberties is unacceptable.
It is not about "eradicating borders". No one here wants to grant citizenship to every foreigner. Everyone here agrees and understands that citizens have, and should have, more rights and privileges than foreigners. But foreigners don't have ZERO rights.
Liberty is a universal birthright of every human being.
Indeed it is! And thank you President Trump for finally doing something about the border jumping criminals who have zero respect for it!
Just say thank you dude. Just show the slightest amount of gratitude. I don't like him either, but I can have humility and appreciation enough to thank him for this. Why can't you.
Liberty is a universal birthright of every human being.
Then let their own countries give them those freedoms if they're "universal." Colombia or Mexico or China is as capable of the US is, of honoring them.
Why come here and demand them THEN?
Get.
The.
Fuck.
OUT.
So you don't actually think liberty is a universal birthright of every human being?
Yep, sure do. That's why we're kicking out the people openly hostile to that liberty.
So you don't actually think liberty is a universal birthright of every human being?
It might be true in some theoretical sense.
It has nothing to do with how to operate the US government vis-a-vis non-US citizens.
Unless you open your home to everyone in your neighborhood, city, and state who wants what you have, you have no leg to stand on. After all, they just want the LIBERTY to take what is YOURS.
"Imagine no possessions" was in the same song as "imagine there's no countries."
GTFO with that nonsense.
Oh what a fucking bullshit false dichotomy. I don't have to choose between either "foreigners have zero rights" or "foreigners have the 'right' to steal all your stuff".
How about this: foreigners don't have the same rights as citizens, but foreigners are entitled to be treated with a minimum of basic human decency. Is that too much to ask?
How about also: If a foreigner is going to be deported to a black site prison in a third-world shithole country, the government should have to prove to some reasonable standard - not the "because I said so" standard - that the foreigner has done something to warrant that level of treatment?
Why do you not? Allowing them to enter illegally could lead to them permitting theft.
This is equally as likely as deporting illegals will lead to deporting citizens.
Sending foreigners who have questionable claims to be here at best (and that includes a questionable claim to amnesty) -- and who are here outright illegally, doing illegal things, at worse -- back to their foreign country, to let them do as they see fit.
If the foreigners in question aren't wanted criminals in their foreign country, then I'm sure they'll be let go to mingle with their friends and family in due course.
But they weren't deported. They were sent to a black-site prison. Per the agreement, they're not going to release them in due course.
If you know where it is, it's not a black site.
"Entitled."
There it is.
Trump defenders believe that rights come from government, as opposed to being something government is tasked with protecting.
Just like the leftists they hate.
Wow, the projection dripping off this comment is stunning. No, dipshit, we believe rights come from the creator. It's you leftist assholes who think rights are created by the state and granted by the state. Fuck you.
When dealing with gang bangers especially MS-13 and TDA, the idea of liberty goes only so far.
Just remember, these types believe in their own ideas of liberty such as extortion, drugs, violence, brutality, theft of private property, This is what we are having to deal with.
"Liberty is a universal birthright of every human being."
That's right up there with bears in trunks.
Liberty has to be fought for and fought to maintain.
Despotism is the birthright of most human beings.
Well, that one gets a bookmark. I mean, it's not like I'm citing the Declaration of Independence or anything.
Reread that very very last part.
The man who wrote that was a slaveowner and liberty certainly wasn't their birthright.
No one who came here illegally has a right to stay. All 11 million are subject to immediate deportation at the pleasure or f the Executive.
What rights do they have? Any?
They have the right to remain silent...
They have all sorts of legal rights -- if the government wants to punish them for some sort of crime, a trial is necessary, they get a lawyer, etc.
But not being subject to immediate deportation at the pleasure of the Executive? That's not one of their rights -- once it is found that they are, indeed, here illegally.
Because the LAW requires that no one be deported until it is determined that they are eligible to be deported. It's not protecting illegals. It's protecting YOU you stupid pig fucker.
Oh come on, let's be honest. Think It Through is white and therefore he's not going to be deported. Right?
That was certainly the visceral fear people had about Obama as Prez
LOL, you guys live in a fantasy land.
Hey Lying Jeffy, are you as worried as Whoopie Goldberg that she's going to be deported?
By the way, I asked you a clown question because you're afraid to answer my legitimate question. Clown.
Being honest is something that escapes you, Jeffy.
And I'm pretty sure that is already happening, or we'd be seeing it in the mainstream media dipshit. Go pound sand.
We didn't deport them. We relocated them to a less hostile and oppressive country than their country of origin until their eligibility for citizenship can be determined.
Might be a little bit of a wait. But don't worry, you're going somewhere much nicer than the place you claimed to flee from.
Sadly you are probably right when it comes to about 90% of Americans.
Ever ask yourself why you're not on board? I'm not even on the MAGA train, but I'm on board with this. It's actually, comfortingly, a unifying thing for Americans. We need unifying things. Purging the border jumpers is one we can all get behind.
Why can't you? Why won't you?
It doesn't take a genius to recognize, however, that permitting the government to violate their liberties makes it easier for the government to violate your liberties in the future.
Actually, it's pretty constrained! Unless I somehow magically become an illegal immigrant, I don't really have anything to worry about. Is that what you think is going to happen, jeff? We're just going to suddenly and arbitrarily declare actual citizens as "not citizens" anymore?
What basis do you have for that, outside of fearmongering stupidity?
To Jeff, freedom is robbing Americans to give to others.
Jeez Jesse, don't show him the rake I'm about to make him step on. Don't you want to see him get a huge welt on his forehead?
Whoops. Sorry.
Unless I somehow magically become an illegal immigrant, I don't really have anything to worry about.
Yes we know. The leopards will never eat YOUR face.
Absolutely correct. I have my SSN, I pay my taxes, I am gainfully and legally employed - the leopards will never eat my face. And even if there were the slightest chance of that happening, it doesn't mean that the leopards aren't eating the faces of people who DESERVE to be eaten right now.
That's why we HAVE leopards.
So let me guess. You (supposedly) didn't vote for Trump because you thought he wasn't authoritarian enough, right?
He's not an authoritarian. It is laughably insane that you believe that.
Hint: If he was an authoritarian, you'd be too scared to call him one.
By your standard, I guess Biden and Obama weren't authoritarian either. Because nobody here was afraid to call them that.
You didn't spend much time on Facebook or YouTube during the time Biden was Pretendent, did you?
Either that, or you were one of the censors.
Jeff and sarc defended and applauded all the censorship, masking, shutting down of business, etc. True believers.
Lying Jeffy (chemjeff radical individualist in case you didn't get the reference) was cool with that censorship.
Which time?
Well, until a government official decides to declare you an illegal immigrant.
The government has done no such thing. Your hypothetical argument isn't working.
I always get amused when Jeff pretends to be fighting for liberty, but only for illegal immigrants. On January 7th he said Capitol officers were justified in shooting J6 protestors for trespassing. Jeff has defended lawyers being given RICO charges for providing legal advice. He justifies the ability of illegals to rape minors if they say they are sorry.
Jeff is so fucking dishonest with his claims of supporting the law or liberty that he is now spiraling hilariously.
Sarc owes you a thanks Jeff for being the only one here more retarded than him.
Didn't he also freak out when some of the rioters were arrested during the summer of love.
Unmarked vans!!!!
On January 7th he said Capitol officers were justified in shooting J6 protestors for trespassing.
Those who act in defense of life or property have, or should have, the right to use lethal force when necessary in their defense. It is called "castle doctrine" and every self-respecting defender of property rights would agree. So does Jesse, but he just doesn't think it should apply to HIS team.
Jeff has defended lawyers being given RICO charges for providing legal advice.
I don't even know what you are talking about here.
He justifies the ability of illegals to rape minors if they say they are sorry.
This is a slanderous lie. What I have said, is that judges have the long-standing ability to grant leniency in sentencing in cases where the defendant expresses genuine remorse. This is a far cry from "justifying rape". And in fact, Jesse also supports judges using discretion to grant leniency in sentencing, because many of the Jan. 6 defendants took advantage of this leniency to obtain reduced sentences and Jesse never said one word in opposition to this. Jesse only opposes it when it's not about his team.
That is Jesse's consistent theme around here - team over principle. He is a one-man shill for MAGA and Team Red. If anyone around here is a fifty-center, it is Jesse or ML. And if he's not being paid by Team Trump to spread their narratives around here, then he's an idiot for working for them for free.
Let's recall these recent posts from Jesse:
https://reason.com/2025/03/05/dead-people-arent-bankrupting-us/?comments=true#comment-10944442
https://reason.com/2025/03/05/dead-people-arent-bankrupting-us/?comments=true#comment-10944459
This is Jesse's schtick - "fake but accurate". He will defend his team outright lying, as long as the lies serve his team's agenda. In this case, he is totally fine with Trump/Musk lying about the 'fraud' or 'waste' in government, because 'it brings exposure'.
He pulled the same schtick with the so-called pet-eating Haitians in Springfield. He kept defending the lie even when his own team could not find any evidence for the claim. Because the lie 'brings exposure' to the narrative that he wants to push.
That is what makes Jesse a propagandist. He fully supports lies in the service of his team and his team's agenda. He openly admits to manipulating you with lies. You just have to be aware of what he's doing.
"Those who act in defense of life or property have, or should have, the right to use lethal force when necessary in their defense. It is called "castle doctrine" and every self-respecting defender of property rights would agree. So does Jesse, but he just doesn't think it should apply to HIS team."
No risk to their lives at all and it is no more their property than it was the protesters'.
"I don't even know what you are talking about here."
Happened to Trump's lawyers. I know it happened in the Georgia case.
"In this case, he is totally fine with Trump/Musk lying about the 'fraud' or 'waste' in government, because 'it brings exposure'."
They're investigating it. If they get some details wrong, it is not lying. It is info based on incomplete investigations.
"He pulled the same schtick with the so-called pet-eating Haitians in Springfield. He kept defending the lie even when his own team could not find any evidence for the claim. Because the lie 'brings exposure' to the narrative that he wants to push."
The evidence was a town hall meeting and complaints of locals. That is not no evidence.
Also a police call Jeff was given audio for.
He knows exactly what I'm referencing with RICO. He also supports the 34 felonies for listing a legal expense as a legal expense against Trump.
But I do love Jeff claiming cops on public property against unarmed protestors falls under castle doctrine. Maybe he is changing his views on Rittenhouse and Floyd?
He was against Rittenhouse?
Yeap. So was sarc who thought the verdict sucked. Could have even added the Trayvon case.
Now that is seriously fucked up. A man clearly defended himself with insanely good trigger discipline in the process.
You do know Jesse is lying, right?
How drunk were you when you posted that?
You do know I have the link of you saying it sucked. Hell. Easy to prove it. Google Rittenhouse. Go to the article when he was found not guilty.
Amazing how you openly lie though lol.
Now you'll go find out what I said is true, then try to reframe what you said despite everyone else seeing what you said.
Need the link? You have difficulty with websites.
You repeatedly claim you have links, but I've never seen you post one...
Jesse has posted many links and full quotes from Sarc.
@LoneSnark
Google Rittenhouse. Go to the article when he was found not guilty.
I used to defend myself from his lies but it became a part time job with no benefit at all. So I let them go.
Lol. True. You defend yourself by lying about what you said. So you didn't defend against my lies.
Go ahead buddy. Put in Rittenhouse into the reason search. See the comment where you start a chain with how it sucked. I'll wait.
Fucking pathological shit.
Is that when you let it go? WTF would not letting it go look like?
No, I was not "against Rittenhouse". I agreed with the verdict. The most critical thing that I said about Rittenhouse was that I thought it was foolish for him to go to Wisconsin in the first place. That's all. And for that, I am labeled as "against Rittenhouse". Because I don't canonize him in the pantheon of right-wing saints, St. Rittenhouse right along with St. Babbitt.
No, I was not "against Rittenhouse". I agreed with the verdict. The most critical thing that I said about Rittenhouse was that I thought it was foolish for him to go to Wisconsin in the first place. That's all. And for that, I am labeled as "against Rittenhouse".
Same here. The guy clearly acted in self defense, but I said he shouldn't have put himself into that situation. For that the narrative says I opposed the verdict and wish he was in prison. And that's what the retards believe, thanks to Jesse and others repeating the same lies hundreds of times a day.
He didn’t put himself in that situation. It was forced on him by the three who attacked.
He lives on the border of the two states, dipshit. Plus, he was with family who have business in Kenosha.
No risk to their lives at all and it is no more their property than it was the protesters'.
The officers' lives were very much in danger. Witness the ones who were injured on that day. Furthermore the property belongs to the government, and as defenders of that property it was their duty to defend it along with the people inside. The property did not belong to the rioters.
They're investigating it. If they get some details wrong, it is not lying. It is info based on incomplete investigations.
I'm sorry but going on national TV and telling the world that there are 300-year-old dead people receiving Social Security is lying. It is intending to deceive the public that the SS databases are worse than they really are.
The evidence was a town hall meeting and complaints of locals. That is not no evidence.
It was rumors and hearsay. The same as the original Facebook post which kicked off the whole saga. There was never any evidence of Haitians eating pets on Springfield. None. Zero. Rumors are not "evidence", they are rumors.
“castle doctrine" Only applies to one’s home, not a public bldg.
Does it apply to security guards hired by the owner to protect a certain parcel of property? If so, then it also applies to the Capitol Police on that day.
Last I checked, it doesn't apply to guards hired by their owner to protect parcels of property.
And that's doubly so when the owner entices people to go onto their property, so that his guards could shoot them.
"Those who act in defense of life or property have, or should have, the right to use lethal force when necessary in their defense. It is called "castle doctrine" and every self-respecting defender of property rights would agree. So does Jesse, but he just doesn't think it should apply to HIS team."
But those "invading" the Capitol weren't doing it on purpose. It's very clear at this point that the FBI entrapped everyone that went into the Capitol, with the goal of charging as many people with a crime afterward. Had they started shooting those people for "trespassing", then their actions would have been outright pre-meditated murder.
Yeah we have known this since COVID. He said it himself: he couldn't be bothered to care about the violations of liberty as governments forced people to be vaccinated; Forced children to be vaccinated.
He couldn't care less.
But now- NOW he would like us to know that it is super important to defend liberty, even for people we don't like.
Sure. Who does he think he is fooling?
Basically just sarcasmic.
Oh this is such fucking bullshit. That is not at all an honest recollection of what happened.
Here is what actually happened: Overt was outraged that kids were being coerced by the government to be vaccinated. But the reason why Overt was so outraged was because his own kids were affected by this mandate. His outrage went into full-blown emotional hysteria. And when I didn't go into the same full-blown emotional meltdown that he did, he lashed out and the above is the result.
He couldn't care less.
That is a total lie. I never supported government mandates for vaccines for anyone, adults and kids alike. What I didn't do is have the same level of emotional breakdown that Overt had. And that was my real sin in his eyes. That I didn't FEEEEEEL the same level of outrage that he did.
I've always had the same level of commitment to liberty. It's Overt who's an emotional wreck over the issue.
"Here is what actually happened: Overt was outraged that kids were being coerced by the government to be vaccinated. But the reason why Overt was so outraged was because his own kids were affected by this mandate. His outrage went into full-blown emotional hysteria. And when I didn't go into the same full-blown emotional meltdown that he did, he lashed out and the above is the result."
What? Somebody who has skin in the game is more invested than somebody who does not? Get the fuck outta town!
Easy to say "Well, kids should be vaccinated" when they ain't your kids. Your empathy for illegals in gangs over kids is, though, duly noted.
Reminder. Jeff is a fat fuck at higher risk of covid death and instead of losing weight wants to force you yo do something to protect him.
I would hope that even Overt would agree that "kids should be vaccinated". It's that both he and I objected to the government mandate.
Are we now judging each other by the strength of one's FEELINGS on the matter? How big the virtue-signal is? Maybe we need a right-wing Outrage Intersectionality discourse. A person is more virtuous when he can bring in multiple dimensions of outrage to be outraged about. Sound good?
I mean, this would definitely track with how many of you rejected Chase Oliver in favor of Trump. Why, Chase Oliver was bland, boring, an empty suit! Who cares if he has all the right policies. Trump is charismatic, he has passion, he fights! Who cares if his policies are whack?
Oliver did not have the right policies. He was about the same as Kamala. He was a clown who let you vote for a gay guy, so virtue signal away.
A clown who said he would push identity politics and supported rights based on identity. Former Obama campaigner who like Jeff only pretended to be libertarian.
See below. No candidate is perfect, but on the Libertarian Purity Test, Chase scores way higher than Trump.
But we all know the election was not at all about policy, it was about emotion and FEEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS. I mean, *you* were going to vote for Trump in any event because his campaign was paying you. But for most everyone else, they preferred a candidate who made them "feel good" over a candidate who had the right policies.
Yes, it's true, no candidate is perfect -- but that doesn't mean that Chase was well outside the realms of acceptability.
I voted for Trump, because I was unwilling to let the non-existent perfect be enemy of the good. And he's since then proven to be a wrecking ball to the Establishment -- something I sincerely doubt that Chase would have done, had he become President -- and the wrecking ball was exactly what we need!
And it should be kept in mind that Trump wasn't always like this: his first term, he tried to work within the Establishment, but the Establishment thwarted him at every turn. They then "fortified" the election well beyond what was legal, they impeached him, they prosecuted him over and over again, and they shot him.
Now he's governing as if he has zero flips to give, with a strong desire of vengeance, having had four years to plot his revenge.
And just think -- if the Establishment had just worked with Trump, and if they had just let him have a squishy second term, they would probably have their own squish in the White House today -- whether Republican or Democrat, it wouldn't matter -- they would have been able to continue with business as usual.
Whose fault is it that we now have Trump 2.0? The very people who tried to destroy him!
^absolutely!
He was about the same as Kamala.
lol
https://votechaseoliver.com/platform/
It's still active!
Yeah, totally the same as KamKam. You are a moron.
Of course he's the same as Harris. He's gay. That means he supports certain policies that all gays support. And he openly said he was once a Democrat. Doesn't matter what his website says or what he says. What matters is the narrative about gays and gay Democrats. They're all leftist pedophiles. That means Chase is a leftist pedophile no matter what anyone says, because he's gay and was a Democrat. And once a Democrat, always a Democrat. Know what I'm saying? Except Trump of course.
But it's only prejudicial leftists who engage in identity politics.
I'd say you're wrong, but you are the resident expert on being a moron...
I mean, it's not like I copy-pasted straight from his platform or anything.
I'm curious -- do you seriously expect us to believe that Chase would have straight-up gutted USAID his first week of office?
Because if he hadn't been willing to do that, I seriously doubt that he would have had the guts to do all the other stuff Trump's been doing to disrupt the Establishment upon getting into office.
Right, so you want performative theater. Trump is giving you a good reality TV show, isn't he?
I don't think Chase would have gone after USAID on the first day, no, because I would have expected him to go after it in the right way, which is via Congress. They were the ones who authorized it in the first place. As things stand now, Trump's actions are likely to be reversed by the courts.
And I'm sure that Congress would have gotten on it right away!
As for the Courts, everything President Trump has been doing has been carefully crafted to fit within the Executive powers -- even if some of the things are a stretch, a lot of things he's doing is going to stick -- and this includes even DOGE, which is a department that was commandeered from Obama's Presidency.
Seriously, why do you expect us to believe a former Obama hack is going to have the same determination and motivation to cut everything that President Trump has? He's governing as if he were stymied at every turn in his first term, had his re-election stolen from him, has been sued, criminally prosecuted (which, by the way -- how did those turn out in the courts?), and literally shot -- and has had four years to reflect on his first term, and carefully plot out how he was going to extract revenge when he got into office a second time.
What has Chase been doing these past four years? I somehow doubt that he had either motivation or insight to act as Trump is now.
And do you know what? After seeing what USAID has been spending money on, I sincerely doubt that Trump's authority to cut back on the spending is going to be held up by the Courts. Trump has been very good at dotting i's and crossing t's -- and Congress, having ceded so much of their power to the Executive over the years, doesn't have a leg to stand on!
Notice all the ad hominem that Chemjeff goes through. Even if he is correct that I was outraged only because it was my kids- Does that matter? No of course not. Either it was a violation of liberty that should be condemned and resisted, or it wasn't.
Let's note that I was consistently against the various mandates from the beginning, while Chemjeff was consistently arguing that everyone should just do what the government said...even if technically, deep down, maybe it wasn't right to mandate such things.
"I never supported government mandates for vaccines for anyone, adults and kids alike. "
This is Chemjeff's little nuance. "never supported".
He could not bother to actually speak AGAINST it. In fact, at every turn he could be found condemning the people who DID resist mandates of all kinds. He called them anti-science (and we know how foolish that now makes him look). He called them selfish. He made up nonsense about bears in trunks.
But not once did he give an argument like, "You know I really don't agree with these anti vaxxers, but government must stop." No. At most after repeatedly being asked the best you could get was, "I don't support this but...."
That just shows what a hypocrite the guy is.
Even if he is correct
I am correct.
Either it was a violation of liberty that should be condemned and resisted, or it wasn't.
It was a violation of liberty that should be condemned and resisted. I just didn't condemn it and resist it to the same level of emotional fervor that you did. I'm allowed to have different priorities and preferences than you and still be a libertarian in good standing. We don't have to be clones you know.
Let's note that I was consistently against the various mandates from the beginning, while Chemjeff was consistently arguing that everyone should just do what the government said...even if technically, deep down, maybe it wasn't right to mandate such things.
First I did not say that "everyone should just do what the government said". I did advocate that people ought to take the vaccine because I believed, and I still believe, that for most people, the vaccine offers more benefit than harm. But it's not because that is what the government said, it's because that is what the scientific studies said.
Second, let me be really clear about this:
The statement of "I am opposed to a government mandate of the vaccine", and the statement of "While I think taking the vaccine is a good idea, I don't think it should be mandated by the government", are identical statements as far as liberty is concerned. BOTH STATEMENTS declare that the decision on whether or not to take the vaccine should rest with the individual and not the government. If you don't agree, then please clearly explain why.
I believe that the people who were mandating the vaccines should be given the benefit of the doubt in that I believe they were trying to do the right thing to protect as many people as they could from a dangerous disease. So if you want me to condemn the people mandating vaccines as being horrible evil people, I am not going to do that. I do think that they chose the wrong method (mandates) to try to do the right thing. But that is not enough for you, you want me to condemn them as being bad people with bad motives. I won't do that.
And, let's be honest here, the people around here who were speaking out against the mandate, they were doing so mainly because they were speaking out against the vaccine itself. They would cherry-pick the studies that they liked that showed problems with the vaccine, and they would ignore and/or trash the studies that they didn't like that showed the vaccine's efficacy. They were anti-science in that they selectively believed the studies that they wanted to believe, and ignored the studies that they didn't want to believe. That is not honest science and it is not honest argumentation either.
That just shows what a hypocrite the guy is.
If your Libertarian Purity Test is going to consist of whether or not someone agrees with you, then only one person in the entire planet is going to pass your test, and that person is you. Other libertarians are allowed to have different preferences and priorities than you, and that is okay. I don't expect everyone to be a clone of me, maybe you shouldn't expect everyone to be a clone of you.
I am correct.
When is that ever true lmao.
Jeffy is a weasel, to put it plainly. He finds a way to claim he never actually said “X”, but backhandedly supported “X” in all his comments.
"Overt was outraged that kids were being coerced by the government to be vaccinated. But the reason why Overt was so outraged was because his own kids were affected by this mandate."
I have now joined Jesse in bookmarking comments. And this might be the last comment I bookmark. Holy shit this is psychotic.
the Trump administration has the power to deport any immigrant suspected of having ties to the Tren de Aragua gang, even if the evidence is thin and never proven in any court.
Correct.
I love the belief that writers here believe, truly believe, that randos would get TdA tattoos. Because TdA would not, bare minimum, harm them for doing so if they were not members.
Yes, the tattoos are quite impressive evidence. Cops have been using tattoos to identify gangs for a little while now.
That's exactly why gangs use tattoos. They make it impossible for members to betray them by denying they are members.
when it comes to prosecuting crimes.
But this has nothing to do with prosecuting crimes. It's about deporting hostile aliens caught engaging in hostile acts. If they were in a car that was on a gun-running trip, do you suppose they were just hitchhikers? Are you still in middle school, Eric?
Communication degree. Less than middle school.
When i tutored in college that is the degree education majors with bad grades went.
Giving handjobs to senior citizens in ceramics courses does not count as tutoring.
Man act blue is getting more retarded.
It’s a never ending process.
Well, I do not know why you did that, but as long as they consented, I guess it is OK.
It's about deporting hostile aliens caught engaging in hostile acts.
And we know they were 'engaging in hostile acts' because the government scrupulously followed the "because I said so" due process.
Has Trump deported anyone who's been here legally yet? The closest he's getting is that "Yay-I'm-For-Palestinians-Committing-Genocide" immigrant who's getting his legal status cancelled for supporting Genocide -- but that's still wending through the courts, isn't it?
If they're here illegally then that's the *only* reason that's needed to deport them. The fact that the first illegals they are deporting are *suspected* criminals is of secondary importance, and the evidence or lack thereof that they are criminals is completely irrelevant.
Word!
the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose.
Absolutely. If you check on someone's background and there's NOTHING—no driver license, no employment history, no credit rating, no education records, no home addresses, no social media, no bank accounts—that's a huge red flag that it's someone making a living from illicit activities. That's why such a person would have great difficulty renting a home, getting a credit card, applying for a job, etc. People living normal lives have identification documents and a paper trail.
Can someone please explain this to me? Are these people here on visas or not? If they do not have a visa then, it would seem to me that the sole due process necessary is confirming that they are here illegally. The fact that government is prioritizing "certain people" doesn't change that fact.
Nope. They aren't even liable for Visas due to their apparent criminal history in Venezuela or suspicion of drug use. All valid reasons for a turn away at the border without a court hearing.
Eric seems to not understand what the laws or regulations are. Just had a professor stopped with a visa for attending a terrorists funeral. Completely within regulations.
Even if you think they all deserve to be deported as a matter of law - do you think they all deserve to be sent to a black site prison in a third-world shithole?
Yes.
Next question?
They should not be here. Not sure why I should give the slighest iota of a shit where they go.
But that is not the argument being made. Boehm is arguing that these people cannot be deported without due process. What happens to them in their home country is not the US's concern.
This seems like it is being made unnecessarily complicated. The constitution guarantees that "no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without the due process of law".
Due process of law has never meant solely a court of law. Hearings in front of an agency have sufficed. It just means that there is a fair procedure that ensures that the person's rights are not being unjustly infringed- in this case, the liberty to travel within the US boundaries.
All the due process should require, then, is that we have a mechanism of confirming that the person is not authorized to be in the United States. That does not require the finding of a judge. It merely requires confirming that the person does not have the authorization to be in the country.
The fact that someone is a criminal or not is a red herring. It may be unfortunate that a non-violent-criminal was caught in the same car as a wanted criminal, but again they are afforded the same due process: provide evidence that you are here legally.
But we know these people are NOT here legally...because Biden let in millions of people illegally.
But that is not the argument being made.
That is the argument that I am currently making.
It's an argument that a lot of us here aren't being persuaded by, that's for sure!
The strength or weakness of Trump's shills' arguments is pretty much irrelevant at this point. Everyone knows they're just a fig leaf for his agenda. The only question now is: he far can he go and still get away with it? After that the only question will be: what form will the Constitutional crisis take? One side in the current culture wars has had its own way in undermining the Constitution for over a hundred years. The only thing left of the original intent of the Founders is some shreds of the Bill of Rights that the Judiciary is still more or less enforcing. Only time will tell whether The Donald will reimplement the Constitution by eliminating large chunks of unconstitutional regulations, laws and regulatory agencies; or only bankrupt America with trade wars and civil war. I'm not particularly worried about "preserving" our nation of laws. That horse escaped from the barn a LONG time ago. Now our only hope is that the growing dictatorship will be benign instead of malicious.
What is the weakness of the arguments? Maybe you can communicate better than Eric. Be sure to cite the laws and regulations in effect. You can even look at Trump’s orders for their references.
I'm sure you're not just making a baseless argument. So be better than Eric and make an informed argument.
Turned out it was baseless all along.
What an idiot. "A Trump official admits there is little specific evidence tying some of these deportees to a crime." Except being here illegally. That's a crime. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
"Show me your papers!" sounds better in the original German, don't you think?
Show me your strawman!
I understand your point. But using an ad hominem like "boot lickers" doesn't help your case or help you to be persuasive.
In actuality it betrays a disdain for those who might reasonably disagree with his message.
"...there is little specific evidence tying some deportees to any crime"
You mean aside from the fact that they're here ILLEGALLY?
Deport every illegal and terrorist sympathizer alien. But these people were sent to a prison, and that would seem to need a trial.
Noooooo, they were sent to a holding facility. And we have this magical technology these days where we can put them on live broadcasting video tape (sorcery!) to make their application for American citizenship instead of just letting them kinda run wild and unchecked here in Colorado apartment complexes literally terrorizing their neighbors with actual violence as we debate whether they're fit to be American citizens.
And we've got airplanes! Airplanes ready and waiting for any of them who complete their citizenship application and are ready to take the Oaths and Pledges.
I wonder how many of them have started the citizenship application process down there. Do you think it's more than zero?
Trump said that they were vermin. Why would vermin need a trial? In fact, isn't prison the fitting place for vermin to end up?
No, the fitting place for vermin to end up is in a trap with their necks snapped.
Trump has been so much kinder that that. The vermin frankly owe him a thank you.
I'm sure I'll find something to put here. Ooh, got it.
Jeff: Name me the Illegal Border Jumping Criminal Bill of Rights.
Due process for illegal immigrants does not require criminal proceedings.
"Oh, you're an illegal immigrant, and on top of that, you're a member of a violent gang committing crimes against US citizens? Deport."
That's the process that they are due.
Of course you fascist cultists approve. Dear Leader signed off, so it's justified. Were all the 200 illegals? Were those who were not, actually guilty of anything?
You lot don't give a shit, because these are bad hombres because that's what Dear Leader and his apparatchiks told you.
Trump isn't Hitler, nor are his supporters Nazis, but he and you lot are headed in the same direction.
More evidence the political Left is hopelessly insane. ANYONE in these United States illegally MUST be deported asap. Fortunately, patriotic Americans are taking back our Constitutional Republic from these Leftist lunatics.
The answer is simple and quick: if they belong to a gang, they get their asses deported.
End of argument.
"Imagine siting on a jury and being told by the prosecution that there would be no evidence presented of any crimes being committed, but that you should simply take the prosecutors' word that the suspect seems like a bad guy. Any reasonable juror would vote to acquit—if the judge didn't laugh the prosecutors out of court first."
Eric, I guess you haven't met a lot of the people in the Reason comments section.
If you get in illegally, you must be deported. This isn't hard to understand.
Indeed. But what if you are here legally and some ICE official, or Trump says you're not, and insists that you should be deported without a chance to prove that you're here legally?
Can't happen. These are the worst of the worst! Donnie and his bully boys pinky promised!
The premise of this regime loving rant is laughably weak.
"We can't prove these people are criminals, so that just proves they're super-duper criminals!" That is some high quality insane troll logic right there.