Virginia Courts Won't Split Ownership of Divorced Couple's Embryos
"The unique nature of each human embryo means that an equal division cannot conveniently be made," writes a Virginia judge.

Property divisions during divorces can often be acrimonious, but for Honeyhline and Jason Heidemann the matter reached a whole new level of import. The couple couldn't decide who should retain ownership of the frozen embryos created with Honeyhline's eggs and Jason's sperm. This dispute has given rise to a novel legal case in Virginia.
A cancer survivor whose chemotherapy left her infertile, Honeyhline Heideman wanted to use the frozen embryos to conceive another child. She argued that ownership of the embryos could be addressed under Virginia's "goods and chattels" statute.
But in a March 7, 2025, opinion letter, Judge Dontae L. Bugg disagreed, dismissing Honeyhline Heidemann's suit and holding that "human embryos are not subject to partition" under Virginia law "as they do not constitute goods or chattels capable of being valued and sold."
Bugg goes on to suggest that there's no way that two embryos can be divided equally between two people because "the unique nature of each human embryo means that an equal division cannot conveniently be made."
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How the Heidemanns Got Here
The Heidemanns used in-vitro fertilization (IVF) in 2015. They conceived one daughter with the embryos that were created, and they cryogenically stored two remaining embryos. An agreement they signed at the time specified that any frozen embryos would be owned jointly but did not say what would happen in the event of divorce.
In 2018, the Heidemanns divorced.
At the time, the Heidemanns addressed the question of the frozen embryos in a Voluntary Separation and Property Settlement Agreement, stipulating that neither party would remove the embryos from storage "pending a court order or further written agreement of the parties" and that Honeyhline and Jason split the cost of storing the embryos.
In 2019, Honeyhline Heidemann sought her ex-husband's consent to use the embryos to conceive more children. Jason Heidemann said no.
Honeyhline next tried reopening their divorce case and filing a "Motion to Determine Disposition of Cryopreserved Human Embryos." But the court dismissed this, saying it no longer had jurisdiction over the Heidemanns' marital property.
Honeyhline then filed a Complaint for Partition of Personal Property, seeking a court order awarding her ownership of both embryos or, barring that, at least one embryo. Her request fell under the jurisdiction of Virginia's partition law.
This attempt also floundered at first, with a court holding in 2022 that the embryos were neither "goods or chattels" under the definitions supplied by Virginia statute.
But Honeyhline subsequently filed a motion to reconsider, and the case came before Judge Richard E. Gardiner.
"Although there are two cases involving disposition of cryopreserved embryos, those cases arose in the context of equitable distribution of marital property," Gardiner noted in a 2023 opinion letter. "Here, Ms. Heidemann is asking the court to partition the embryos as goods or chattels, as her request to address the embryos as marital property was denied in May 2020 for lack of jurisdiction."
Are Embryos 'Goods or Chattels'?
Jason Heidemann objected to his wife's motion, arguing that 1) a court couldn't order the embryos be treated differently than the ex-coupled had agreed upon in their earlier legal agreement, 2) allowing his ex-wife to conceive children with the embryos violated his 14th Amendment right to "procreational autonomy," and 3) the embryos were still not "goods or chattels" under Virginia's legal definition of such.
The constitutional argument is the most interesting, but Gardiner found that it was premature. Meanwhile, Gardiner found fault with Jason's other arguments. "Because the disposition of the embryos was not settled in the Agreement, the Agreement cannot be enforced as to the embryos and an order as to their disposition would be consistent with the Agreement," he wrote.
As to the question of whether embryos could count as goods or chattels, Gardiner pointed to the statute that would later become Virginia's current goods and chattels statute—a measure that once referred to the "division of slaves, goods or chattels." It's clear that the statute was not meant to apply only to "real property being partitioned," Gardiner concluded. Rather, it permits "the partition or, in the alternative, the sale, of 'goods or chattels' regardless of whether they are found on real property being partitioned."
Jason Heidemann had also suggested the law couldn't apply because it required an appraisal of the goods or chattels in question. Since it's illegal to buy or sell "human fetal tissue," embryos did not have a market value, he argued. And without a market value, the embryos couldn't be appraised.
But an embryo is not the same thing as "human fetal tissue," Gardiner pointed out in his 2023 letter.
"As there is no prohibition on the sale of human embryos, they may be valued and sold, and thus may be considered 'goods or chattels,'" Gardiner wrote, vacating the earlier court's ruling.
The Current Case
A few months later, Honeyhline Heideman re-filed her partition suit. The question of how to handle the Heidemanns' frozen embryos subsequently came before Judge Dontae L Bugg, who issued his ruling earlier this month.
Because Gardiner's 2023 ruling was an opinion letter, not an order of the court, it was not legally binding, Bugg pointed out. An opinion letter is merely "a written statement of a judge's reasoning for granting a motion to reconsider a dismissal order," he wrote.
And Bugg decidedly departed from the earlier judge's reasoning:
Insofar as the February 2023 Opinion Letter constitutes non-binding authority, the Court is not persuaded the "goods or chattels" include human embryos. The February 2023 Opinion Letter relies upon an earlier version of Virginia Code § 8.01-93 that authorized the partition of slaves to analogize that human embryos can be valued and sold to the extent that the statute is not limited to the partition of land. The Court takes issue with reliance upon a version of the statute that pre-dates passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865. For analysis purposes, while partition may be available for personal property not annexed to the land being partitioned, after full review of this matter, the analysis of the Opinion Letter is rejected as it relates to human embryos….
The removal of reference to slaves was solely to excise a lawless blight from the Virginia Code, the institution of slavery applicable to fellow citizens, which removal supports the principle that human beings, and by extension the embryos they have created, should not as a matter of legislative policy be subject to partition. The application of Virginia Code § 8.01-93 to cryopreserved human embryos is a strained construction never envisioned by the modem General Assembly and would not be in harmony with the context of the statute.
Bugg goes on to suggest that there's no way that two embryos can be divided equally between two people because "the unique nature of each human embryo means that an equal division cannot conveniently be made."
Admittedly, any analysis that likens embryos to slaves is a bit bizarre.
But Bugg's reasoning here is also unsatisfying. He seems to take offense at the idea that embryos might be subject to laws regarding division of property, and assures us that if it was a mistake to apply that law to human beings it's also a mistake to apply it to entities that could become human beings.
Yet the facts remain that these embryos exist, that something must be done with them, and that the parties that created them can't agree on what that something should be. Feeling that the law shouldn't apply to such matters, or that it's somehow undignified to to describe embryos as "goods," does absolutely nothing to change these facts.
Moving Forward
One thing Bugg's opinion does do a satisfactory job of is describing the murky and divided legal landscape concerning frozen embryos at present.
"Some jurisdictions have characterized cryopreserved embryos as property or a special type of property but have not determined whether embryos could be valued, bought, or sold," he notes:
Other jurisdictions have suggested that embryos are not property, but instead biological human beings that cannot be bought or sold and give rise to parental rights….
Other courts have suggested that embryos are not property but may give rise to ownership interests that put embryos in an interim category that entitles them to special respect due to their potential for human life.
The proliferation of IVF is sure to produce an increasing number of cases concerning ownership of or outcomes for frozen embryos. And these cases will collide with an increasing push to define personhood as beginning at fertilization.
Pretty much the only thing that's clear is we are destined for some difficult and heady arguments on this front.
As for the Heidemanns, Bugg has decided that since "partition in kind is inherently impractical," and since ordering a sale of the embryos "is neither legally sanctioned nor ethically acceptable," the courts can't really do anything to help them. He suggests that perhaps the legislature should address the issue.
More Sex & Tech News
No injunction on Florida social media ban: A federal judge will not block Florida's teen social-media law from taking effect. The ruling, issued Friday by U.S. District Judge Mark Walker, means the state can start enforcing a law that bans anyone under age 14 from having social media accounts and requires parental permission for 14- and 15-year-olds to have accounts.
"The law applies narrowly only to social media platforms with addictive features, like push notifications, with 10% or more of daily active users who are younger than 16 and who spend on average two hours or more on the app," WUSF reports. Walker said the platiffs—the tech trade groups NetChoice and CCIA—failed to show that they would be injured by the law.
"The broader fight by the technology companies against the law continues in federal court in Tallahassee," notes WUSF. "Walker's decision Friday was an interim ruling that focused narrowly on whether he would issue a preliminary injunction in the case."
What makes this ruling especially disappointing is that Walker appeared quite skeptical of the law during a recent hearing, likening the rationale behind it to prior panics over Dungeons & Dragons, comic books, and rap music.
A blow to California's Age-Appropriate Design Code Act: A federal judge has issued a preliminary injunction against California's Age-Appropriate Design Code Act (CAADCA), in a case also brought by NetChoice. U.S. District Judge Beth Labson Freeman "agreed that NetChoice was likely to succeed on the merits of its claims that the statute's prohibitions and requirements violate the online companies' expressive rights under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution," reports the Courthouse News Service.
"Even if the court were to accept that the act advances a compelling state interest in protecting the privacy and well-being of children, the state has not shown that the CAADCA is narrowly tailored to serve that interest," wrote Freeman in her ruling. "The act applies to all online content likely to be accessed by consumers under the age of 18, and imposes significant burdens on the providers of that content."
"While protecting children online is a goal we all share, California's Speech Code is a trojan horse for censoring constitutionally protected but politically disfavored speech," said NetChoice director of litigation Chris Marachese in a statement.
Texans gonna Texan: A new measure proposed by Texas state Rep. Briscoe Cain (R–District 128) would ban public employees from listing their pronouns in any work communications or, in the course of their job, using terms that include "sex workers," "pregnant people," "pregnant Texans," or "abortion care."
Ron Wyden on why the Internet still needs Section 230:
Across U.S. politics, it's become fashionable to blame nearly all the internet's ills on one law I co-wrote: Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Everyone from President Donald Trump to some of my Democratic colleagues argue that Section 230 has let major tech platforms moderate too much or too little. Trump's Federal Communications Commission chairman, Brendan Carr, has already written about his plans to reinterpret the law himself.
Many of these claims give Section 230 too much credit. While it's a cornerstone of internet speech, it's a lesser support compared to the First Amendment, as well as Americans' own choices in what they want to see online. But I'm convinced the law is just as necessary today as when I co-wrote it with Rep. Chris Cox in 1996.
Trump continues Biden-era investigation into Microsoft: The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) "is moving ahead with an antitrust probe of Microsoft that was opened in the waning days of the Biden administration," reports Reuters. "The investigation was approved by then FTC chair Lina Khan ahead of her departure" and centers on Microsoft's licensing terms for cloud services and its deal with OpenAI. It looks like the Trump administration is going to continue the tedious, counterproductive antitech antitrust crusade it started in Trump's first term and which was ramped up under Khan.
Encryption attacks abound abroad: Wired reports:
Over the past few months, there has been a surge in government and law enforcement efforts that would effectively undermine encryption, privacy advocates and experts say, with some of the emerging threats being the most "blunt" and aggressive of those in recent memory. Officials in the UK, France, and Sweden have all made moves since the start of 2025 that could undermine or eliminate the protections of end-to-end encryption, adding to a multiyear European Union plan to scan private chats and Indian efforts that could damage encryption.
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Just split the embryo in half.
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But more seriously, there are two of them and it seems rational for each of them to get one.
Even more seriously, aren't fertilized embryos something you can kill at will without any legal repercussions? That strongly indicates that they are, in fact, property.
No one should be forced into fatherhood without consent. His clear "no" should bar anyone from using the embryos.
He already gave consent by having them fertilized in the first place. That train already left the station.
Consent to fertilization is not the same as consent to fatherhood. They may be contiguous consents in traditional fertilization (that is, sex) but they are not automatically contiguous in technology-assisted techniques.
Any such consent remaining was revoked in the Voluntary Separation and Property Settlement Agreement they both signed during the divorce.
Consent to fertilization is not the same as consent to fatherhood.
This is, of course, horse shit.
What other predicable end result would one draw from fertilizing an egg with one's sperm, one might wonder.
Especially given the fact the he is already a father to one of those grown up embryos. If he couldn't see that as a possible end result, then he is a retard.
The process involves fertilizing multiple eggs at once with the intent of producing an agreed upon number of children. Let's say 10 eggs were fertilized to try to have 1 kid. It would be bonkers that she can go back without his consent and have 9 more kids.
The fact you bake in intentionally creating and discarding multiple individual human.lives once you have achieved thevwantedcresult is why current IVF methods are unethical.
Given the fact they froze them, the implication seems pretty clear that the intention was to go back and have them. Otherwise they would have been discarded as a matter of course.
Also, I'd presume they hedged against the future knowing that chemo could render her infertile which is exactly what happened. Is it possible they would have ultimately decided against implanting them? Sure, but given the mothers position now it seems unlikely that was on the table.
I'm with Mickey Rat that current IVF methods are inherently unethical, but since it's already been done it's a different ethical question.
To be totally clear here, the ethical question as it exists now is allow those extra embryos to become people (as the mother wishes) or to destroy them (as the father wishes).
There is no readily obvious 3rd path.
"Consent to fertilization is not the same as consent to fatherhood. This is, of course, horse shit."
Yeah.. /s Ya know ... It's like when you call the landscape company to plant a lawn at your house they then are required to 'father' that lawn by watering and mowing it for you for free??? /s
Even more seriously, aren't fertilized embryos something you can kill at will without any legal repercussions? That strongly indicates that they are, in fact, property.
So grey wolves are property but red wolves aren't.
Ooh! Even more Reason-y; non-migratory monarch butterflies are property but migratory ones are not.
Or maybe wolves claws belong to the wolves not some 3rd party [WE] Gov-Gun gangsters with "moral standards".
Came here looking for this response.
When it comes to who legally owns the embryo, you can't spell "implantation" without "plantation".
>> 2) allowing his ex-wife to conceive children with the embryos violated his 14th Amendment right to "procreational autonomy,"
I would argue the second his goo left his corporeal effect autonomy was rendered moot.
He has to pay for it though.
he is paying his share of the storage costs. Seems like he is already providing support.
Except that he has a written agreement that says otherwise.
That basically amounts to the same arguments put forward by the Confederate States of America.
You were property because they had a written agreement that said as much.
Just pointing out that just because one has a written agreement, it doesn't make said written agreement ethical, moral, or valid. I can get you to sign a document that allows me to murder you in the face with a handgun, but no court would recognize it as valid. You can't give someone permission to murder you, and yes that was tried in court at least once that I know of.
written agreements are why courts exist.
And this, amongst other things, is why IVF should not be practiced.
no. it's not.
[tilts hand] This is a fairly decent reason not to practice IVF. I understand IVF for cancer survivors, but divorcing cancer survivor(s) causing embryos to be regarded as property is pretty existentially terrible and best avoided if possible.
This is weird. Either give each person an embryo, or rule that both parties must consent to the use of an embryo, as originally laid out in their agreement.
The second seems the most straightforward.
This is only an issue because the woman can't produce more eggs, but that shouldn't force the ex husband to be a sperm donor.
Is there any scenario where an ex husband (or anyone else) could be forced to be a sperm donor?
How would the ex-husband be "forced" to be a sperms donor? They are embryos, they have already been fertilized. If they were just frozen ova, she would not need him to fertilize them.
There are two issues here. The ex-husband does not want children born after the divorce and hence will not be raised by him, as well as potential extra child support payments. I presume these are the issues over why he is objecting.
This is where "life begins at fertilization" people fall flat on their faces.
I think you have this backwards.
This is where one dude stood up and said, "Hang on!" and asserted his reproductive rights, and everyone lost their minds.
If he wanted to assert his reproductive rights, he shouldn't have fertilized three separate eggs and put them on ice.
This is buyers remorse on his part, and more than a little spiteful towards an ex-wife.
So, let me see if I understand you. She can... I don't know what the scientifical word is for this so... bear with me... she can gestate the eggs, and then abort them three months (9 months later depending on your perspective) but he has no choice in the matter.
This is the one narrow (yes, legalistic) case where a man has a choice to undo a birthing people's choice after the fact, and that's not a choice he's allowed to make?
This is only a problem if you assume that he would be forced to pay anything for the child, or have any interaction with them at any point in the future which is the actual crux of your problem with this it seems. Since we apparently put a lot of weight on paper agreements, they could no doubt come to such an arrangement. Right?
The obvious solution, and one many around here might even agree with, is that if a woman decides to give birth the father of the child isn't legally obligated to support them as it was her choice not to have an abortion. If it's her choice, it's her responsibility. End of story. This would appear to be even more clear in this particular circumstance, rather than less clear.
Ethically speaking, he is something of a monster to deny an ex-wife her only chance at having more children who are biologically related to her, and I'm sure she's none too thrilled that the only possible natural father of those children is a man that is so spiteful he would deny her this.
I won't pretend to know what caused such hateful animosity between them, but he already did the deed now he's just waffling on the predicable end results of the deed. It would be amusing role reversal if not for the actual human damage being done.
I won't pretend to know what caused such hateful animosity between them, but he already did the deed now he's just waffling on the predicable end results of the deed. It would be amusing role reversal if not for the actual human damage being done.
I don't have much of a problem with most of your response here except this. This is the central point. She can waffle on the predictable end result of her deed at any point in the process, but he has zero choice in the matter.
he has zero choice in the matter.
No, he did have a choice and he already made that choice. That's the point people are missing here.
His ex-wife doesn't seem to be making any demands of him other than getting the embryos which, naturally as a man, he has no actual use for. I can't imagine a situation where his new wife would want his ex-wife's fertilized egg's implanted into her absent severe sociopathy.
No, he did have a choice and he already made that choice. That's the point people are missing here.
Both he and she had the same choice, at one point on the timeline. But she maintains her after-the-fact choice in perpetuity. He does not-- if he's not allowed to say 'no'. That's the point that people are missing.
While I have no problem admitting that this is a very sticky legal situation where there is a collision of competing virtues, the fact remains
She might be a lovely person, he might be the Venezuelan gang member of former husbands. But one needs to remove personality from this and look at the facts and precedents that this case will set. She could say she wants nothing from him now, and then change her mind later (her choice). She could have the embryos implanted, then abort months later (her choice). She can have the child, then give it up for adoption (her choice). She can (probably) refuse to allow him any contact with the child regardless of his wishes (her choice). His choice was made ten years ago when she and he both looked into each other's eyes and said, "Let's do this". You don't find it strange or confounding in the slightest that his choice was frozen in carbonite from years before, but her choices remain liquid, fluid, fungible and flexible up to and including after the birth?
Both he and she had the same choice, at one point on the timeline. But she maintains her after-the-fact choice in perpetuity. He does not-- if he's not allowed to say 'no'. That's the point that people are missing.
I'm not missing that point. It's a point that doesn't matter absent the state sticking their fingers into the situation.
There is no way that her carrying those embryos to term has any effect on him whatsoever beyond the legal repercussions that could be put on him by the state.
As for her keeping that choice in perpetuity, that makes sense as she is the only person in the situation that can actually do anything with the embryos other than destroy them. I doubt they created them for any other purpose beyond being born, or as a hedge against this exact future outcome where she can no longer conceive children. Their mistake was thinking he would be around for it, but he made that choice already as I've pointed out multiple times.
If he plans on hiring a surrogate to carry them to term, that might be different but that seems tremendously improbable given his obvious animus towards his ex-wife. It's equally possible she hates him, and is trying to saddle him with two extra child support payments, but that is at the heart of the issue I think so it would make sense to address that issue directly instead of beating around the bush.
There should indeed be a pathway to serving parental responsibility in any form towards a child that was born in this particular way, well after all the relevant choices were made to create the embryos in the first place. At this point, is truly is entirely on her and I see no way around that.
I suppose it's at least worth considering what would happen to those embryos absent any actions at all, as well, but that's a deep rabbit hole. I'd presume they become non-viable at some point, which would functionally be a man aborting his children against the wishes of their mother. As I said, a curious role reversal which makes this an excellent ethical dilemma.
It's a point that doesn't matter absent the state sticking their fingers into the situation.
Go fuck yourself. The State didn't stick it's fingers in and you're a stupid shitbag for pretending like the cops were going around looking for cancer survivors who'd been sterilized with previously-fertilized embryos rather than an IVF clinic and two peoples' attorneys duking it out in court.
Fucking "Everything is libertarianisms." retardation that assumes libertarianism dictates (your) morality (to others) rather than opening the paths to many possible and equal or similarly moral outcomes.
While I have no problem admitting that this is a very sticky legal situation where there is a collision of competing virtues, the fact remains
To your point, the "Obviously and unequivocally no." belies the irrationality, dishonesty, or disparity.
Abortion was federal law and being legislated into "No questions asked." territory. Literally "Don't even pray for an alternative." Here, however, we have a situation that is definitively and circumstantially rare (just like the stupid theft case that ENB was retarded about) and it cannot be conceived that people of another State/District/court might be allowed to have a different opinion and in the exceedingly rare case(s) where a couple fertilizes eggs, freezes them, gets cancer, winds up sterile, divorces, and *then* decides to do something with the embryos contests things one way or the other.
Lemme guess... attack an unarmed women's clinic and kill a cop for Jesus to save thim baybeez? Been done already, still, the Jesus Caucus wants to backstab libertarian candidates to free Robert Dear as an honorary J6er.
Thinking on this further, there are so many threads to pull on here that could unravel a whole bunch of legal threads, I barely know where to start.
I kind of agree with the judge here, that this situation is so messy that it probably needs legislative input. While I'm no lawyer (or Doctor) I'll bet a middling amount of money that she could give birth to a child from these fertilized eggs and then come after him for child support-- probably because there are a whole host of state laws that would simply recognize that the child contained 50% of his DNA-- was in fact scientifically and provably his child.
Then there are the psycho-social implications. I don't want to be that guy who pulls the "I have kids and you wouldn't understand" card mainly because I have no idea if you have children-- but speaking for myself, if I found out there was a child out there that was my offspring and it happened after a consensual/contractual relationship was null and void, that would weigh on me greatly. We're not talking about a guy who knocked up some girl in the back seat of his car and finds out he's got a kid two years later-- this was based on a clear understanding between not one, but TWO consenting adults, and likely based upon a whole mountain of shared understandings that were no longer in play.
This whole thing has the real possibility of devolving into yet another situation where two people agree to disagree, but one side always wins and maintains 100% of the choice.
I'll bet a middling amount of money that she could give birth to a child from these fertilized eggs and then come after him for child support-- probably because there are a whole host of state laws that would simply recognize that the child contained 50% of his DNA-- was in fact scientifically and provably his child.
Frankly, yes.
I too would have to agree that this probably does require legislative input as it's a novel problem caused by the technology involved in this process. A normal pregnancy can't be 'frozen' in time like these were. Men's rights do need protecting in this arena, I won't deny that.
At the heart of the issue there are moral and ethical considerations divorced from the legal ones, but it also seems to me that there is a legal remedy here where they can come to an agreement that if she decides to carry them to term he is in no way legally obligated to those children.
As far as I know, there isn't a legal exception for men to 'abandon' children in this way. He fucked up by creating these embryos in the first place, because that was the moment he had a choice. A legal pathway to severing a man's responsibility to be a father should exist, even if only in narrow circumstances such as this.
This whole thing has the real possibility of devolving into yet another situation where two people agree to disagree, but one side always wins and maintains 100% of the choice.
And continues to bludgeon the other side with unending Chicken Little cries of an oppressive Handmaiden's Tale future while continuing to render women and female embryos as unbepenised gestation chambers.
Really, explain that assertion.
This sort of situation is why many people consider IVF as it is currently performed by creating "spare" embryos is unethical.
Many of these claims give Section 230 too much credit. While it's a cornerstone of internet speech, it's a lesser support compared to the First Amendment, as well as Americans' own choices in what they want to see online. But I'm convinced the law is just as necessary today as when I co-wrote it with Rep. Chris Cox in 1996.
So Wyden says that critics give Section 230 "too much credit" and then in the next statement, he literally gives Section 230 "too much credit".
Section 230 is NOT the cornerstone of speech on the internet, the First Amendment is the cornerstone of speech on the internet.
Admittedly, any analysis that likens embryos to slaves is a bit bizarre.
Why? It's human beings that are being treated as personal property. Let's ask China and North Korea and Islam.
Hey, China/NK/Islam - when your families get divorced, who gets to keep your slaves?
But Bugg's reasoning here is also unsatisfying.
Why?
Suppose you have two children. And then you get a divorce. You don't give one child to one parent, and the other to the other. That's not how any of this works.
The proliferation of IVF is sure to produce an increasing number of cases concerning ownership of or outcomes for frozen embryos.
Yep. Time to put an end to it. Sorry if you're infertile. That sucks, but playing games with tiny humans is not OK.
ENB's thinking on reproductive issues is always utilitarian and representative of shallow thinking. The precedent set by treating as saleable property would have some far reaching effects beyond the outcome of this case.
AT owns everyone's sperm and eggs!!!! /s
Because 'AT' has mobster 'moral standards' that makes it so. /s
What are your moral standards to the contrary?
Does it involve intentionally killing or commoditizing tiny people?
My "moral standards" are ... that Gov-Guns against other people over my "morals" isn't the correct use of Gov-Guns.
2nd - You can't 'kill' what has no Inherent Life what-so-ever. You just as well be complaining about ?killing? one's "tiny" toaster-oven or their fingernails by clipping them.
Your entire "morals" live in fantasy-land of magical imaginary creatures and the fact you want your fantasy-land imagination Gov-Gun dictated on other people really demonstrates just how religious based it is.
So, you're an anarchist then. We shouldn't even be policing/prosecuting straight up murder, if that's the case. Or rape, or theft, or kidnapping, or LGBTing/child abuse, or fraud, or terrorism, or slavery, or any other crimes against persons/property.
Those are all illegal solely because they're morally wrong. And they're policed/prosecuted (or, at least, should be) because of its deleterious effect on a society of moral people. We INTENTIONALLY turn the State against other people over morals. Because that's how a functioning society works - at least, when they make it a point to recognize the humanity of a human being.
As opposed to intentionally dehumanizing them for the explicit point of rationalizing their killing, like you're doing here.
"We INTENTIONALLY turn the State against other people over morals."
^WRONG.
We live in a nation founded on Freedom and Justice for all not some wannabe-God/King's moral standards.
Murder, rape, theft, kidnapping, child-abuse, fraud, terrorism, slavery ARE all violation of the people's freedom/autonomy. The EXACT thing Pro-Life is literally trying to legislate against (BAN). Slavery doesn't get much richer than FORCING a Woman to reproduce against her own will and the premise is milliseconds away from legislating an act of rape. Why stop at conception? FORCE her to conceive as well (i.e. Legalize Rape).
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Free the Woman & the ?baby? ... NOT enslave the Woman & the ?baby?.
Altruist Totalitarian is told by the Pope of Rome that women who have sex are Siamese Twins and have no individual rights. Constitutional People (persons born) with no individual rights are slaves, only... the Constitution refers to them as "other people."
You don't actually know what Siamese Twins are, do you. Like, I'll bet your only information on the subject is the song from Lady and the Tramp. Tell me I'm wrong.
His problem is that, in order to get the divorce over with, he left this hanging.
The woman in this couple wants to bear one or more of the remaining embryos. She cannot "conceive" them. Being embryos, they are already conceived, by definition.
This is an excellent example of the rather intractable ethical issues with how IVF is currently performed by making spare embryos.
Or it is a vehicle for us to evolve our laws and our thinking beyond what early history dirt-farmers and traditionalists are capable of.
I think you mean devolve.
The old fashioned dirt farmers of long ago did not have much problem with having human individuals considered tradable commodities.
We had evolved our society beyond that level of primitivism.
They are jointly owned. It makes sense that any decisions on what is to be done with them requires a signed agreement by both. I would say that if he wants to destroy them and she wants to keep them in cryo then she is welcome to keep them at her own expense.
This doesn't seem like that difficult of a thing to figure out.
Except that you cannot own a human individual as property.
What human ? Where do you see a human ? That glob in a petri dish isn't a human and never will be to the very end of time unless it is implanted into a uterine wall and starts receiving hormones from the host to begin transformation into a fetus.
So I've got you down for:
Glob -----i-m-p-l-a-n-t-a-t-i-o-n-----> human life.
Is that right?
tldr - at implantation, and only at implantation, can a woman (not a birthing person) be considered pregnant. Anything before that, including fertilization, does not produce a baby. This is the tipping point.
Well until science improves, and everyone is harvested from the Government-Womb-o-Tron-9000.
Couple of follow on questions:
1. What if it implants in a fallopian tube? Still human life? Is the woman still "pregnant"?
2. What does implantation do to change the [human] nature of the unique embryo?
1. Yes, yes, and yes again. The fact that its likely to extremely harm the mom, not withstanding. Hence, the clauses where sane ppl make exceptions to save the life of the mother involved, which means the death/destruction of the fetus. But yes, in ectopic pregnancy the embryo produces the hormone that is detectable by pregnancy test and will cause hormonal changes in the mom. It just isn't viable. (edit - Yes, in entopic pregnancy it can be said that you are killing a life to save a life. But evidence has shown it would have been non-viable for both ppl involved, hence justified to take matters in hand preemptively.)
2. Implementation cause the host to release hormones that stop the flushing of the cycle in favor of supporting a pregnancy and different hormones cause the embryo to evolve. Without that happening, there is never going to be a baby.
It is an individual human life at the very first stages of development. Just because you deny the science of it does not it is not true.
Well you better set it free then.
Hand it over to child services.
You Pro-Lifers live in unicorn land of stupid.
And you pro-aborts will undermine the very notion of universal human rights in order to kill to your bloodthirsty black little heart's content,
What *inherent* right does it have????
If it's not inherent it's not a right at all; it's an *entitlement* that requires Gov-Gunning down a 'Slave' to supply your BS propagandized ?right?
JUST like the left does day-in and day-out.
It's really no mystery that the Pro-Life lobby was founded in the Democrat-Majority Catholic Church.
The only real mystery is why Republicans are packing water for Democrats.
So you are saying that human rights are not inherent, that they come from government. You cannot write one type of human individual out of inherent rights because it is convenient for whatever you want and leave the rest intact.
*Inherent* specifically means NOT from government.
LOL. Talk about contradictory double-speak.
Like I said; What *inherent* rights does a fertilized egg have?
If it had an inherent right to life it doesn't need anything or anyone else to sustain it.
Unfortunately, the human life aspect isn't even on the table here. It's two sets of genetic material that have been merged and is therefore rightly under joint ownership (or if you prefer, conservatorship). Pro-abort types and those who have zero respect for the rights of men and fathers are the ones stuck twisting their logic. They're the ones who want to entertain the idea that she still somehow is the only one who has a say here.
Here's a question: If the embryos ARE property, what if they went bankrupt? Could they then be sold to the highest bidder?
And then would they both be responsible for child support payments?
God himself gave Women the reproduction power/gear.
He donated his specimen willingly and without checking the contract for this specific concern upon donation. Therefore the order of the court should be he has no legal grounds to pretend he 'owns' what he donated since there is no 'own' contract to support it.
I wonder what the opinion would be if the man wanted to implant the embryo(s) in his new wife, who is also by chance infertile? And then sue the ex-wife for child support for her contribution of 50% of the DNA.
The courts don't care, the state just doesn't want to get stuck with the bill. The reason they go after dads so hard is purely monetary. That is why they will still try to assign responsibility to men who aren't even the father.
States strapped for cash are usually the worst offenders.
Humorously ...
"He's KILLING BABIES because he won't let her reproduce!", Pro-Life.
"I own that person! It's my property!" -Proborts. And Slavers. And Communists.
Ackshully... Christian National Socialists are slavers, legally and demostrably. Nuremberg trial records and those of Subsequent Proceedings establish this conclusively to any who bother with factual records and legal definitions.
Please feel free to bother with those factual records and legal definitions.
Kinda weird that you didn't. Maybe you were just mashing words together trying to pretend you have something important to say?
Exactly.... He's trying to 'own' that ?person? by preventing its existence. (!!!MURDER!!!)
In the Pro-Life fantasy-land of pure BS and imaginations anyways.
When I ran the Underground Railroad 200 years ago, I was really just trying to own them. Derp.
Do you NOT see how your "they're not people" argument will always blow up right in your face?
LOL... Never-mind that was a portrayal of Pro-Life's reasoning ... blowing up right in their face.