Yes, We Should End Taxes on Tips
Taxing tips generates practically no revenue, burdens workers, and fuels pointless IRS audits.

President Donald Trump has announced (several times) that he will end the taxation of tipped income. There is a lot to celebrate whenever a tax goes away—but the devil is in the details.
First, the numbers. There is $36.4 billion in reported tip income in the United States annually—emphasis on "reported," as many cash tips escape the notice of the IRS. Of that, $24.2 billion is from full-service restaurants. If you figure that the average tipped service employee is in the 12 percent tax bracket, that's about $4 billion to the IRS, in the context of a $6.9 trillion budget. And by the way, the IRS requires you to keep track of your tips if you make $20 or more in tips in a calendar month. All the paperwork, all the hassle, all the audits, just for $4 billion to the federal government, an amount it will burn through in about 18 hours.
Trump is right to want to get rid of taxes on tips, primarily because it's a heavy paperwork load and it generates practically no revenue. Promising to get rid of it was a downright genius political move because it appealed to the 4 million workers in tipped occupations, and he was buying those votes for practically nothing.
There are, however, a few flies in the ointment. When people think about tipped occupations, they usually think of the waitress getting $2.50 in tips off a country ham at Waffle House. It should be pointed out that there are some tipped occupations that make well into six figures—especially in Las Vegas. Casino hosts, doormen, bottle girls, strippers, and sex workers can make multiple six figures in tipped income and enjoy a high standard of living. So if you were class-warfare-minded, the unintended consequence of this is that it will make some already-rich people richer. (But I don't think we care about that—good for them!)
The other potential downside of eliminating taxes on tips is that, naturally, people are going to try to arbitrage the system and treat actual wages as tip income. If you can use your imagination, you will probably see that tipped occupations will explode after the tax is abolished. Not that civil disobedience when it comes to taxes is necessarily a bad thing, but the IRS will probably be spending most of its time determining whether reported income is actually tip income or not—which is probably a marginally better use of its time than making people track their cash tips in a notebook. The foregoing is also true for eliminating taxes on overtime.
It will be an interesting economic experiment to see if tips decrease after tax on tips is eliminated. If you knew that your server was making 12 percent more on an after-tax basis, would you tip 12 percent less? Some people would. About five years ago, there were heated discussions online as to whether America should do away with its tipping culture and be more like Europe, where service jobs are salaried professions. If you've been to Europe, you probably know that service can be indifferent, at best. In America, tips can be arbitrary and inconsistent—there are good tippers and bad tippers, and oftentimes, there is little to no correlation between the quality of service and tip income on a nightly basis. But over time, conscientious, friendly servers do earn more.
The worst thing about taxing tips is that cash tips are more or less on the honor system—so it's a cat-and-mouse game between the tipped employee and the IRS as to how much income one could reasonably not report before getting an audit. This is one of the motivations for the push toward a cashless society, and perhaps central bank digital currencies, to give the government electronic records of everything.
It should also be pointed out that tipped employees were frequently the target of IRS audits, haggling over a few hundred dollars in taxes. In recent years, we learned that the IRS disproportionately audited low-income taxpayers compared to high-income taxpayers—the IRS staff simply did not have enough smart and savvy agents who could comprehend the complexity of the 1,000-page tax return of a centimillionaire. Thus, the burden of the audits fell on the servers who had underreported their tips by a negligible amount—all for inconsequential gain.
Ending the tax on tips not only puts more money in the pockets of service employees but also unburdens them from an onerous tax enforcement regime. Taxes on tips raise practically no revenue and are a make-work project for thousands of IRS agents. Trump gets one right.
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All taxes, or just federal income tax?
What about OASDI?
A lot of tipped employees lie about their income, then whine in old age that social security is so small.
And what about all the employees with tip jars out who are not working in a designated 'tip wage credit' position?
Oh well, not a problem in less than two years when the totalitarians take the house again.
I would imagine the non-tipped employees with tip jars are already not reporting that to the IRS.
If the Trump administration does manage to eliminate taxes on tips, expect the Dems to eliminate the tipped minimum wage as soon as they are back in power, and in a few years we will be like Europe with no tipping at all, taxed or not.
Works for me. I hate how tipping works in this country. I occasionally get tips in my current position and have worked a few other places where I was paid fair labor wages and further tips were fully voluntary. I've also worked as a waiter where almost all my income was tips. The latter felt dirty. You get paid much better purely on tips, but it also creates bad incentives on how you conduct business and interact with customers. I hated when I felt stiffed after getting $10 off a $100 bill despite knowing that was only 1 of 5 tables I had that hour and I would go on to make over $50 an hour for simple entry level labor. It's a shitty system.
"...The latter felt dirty. You get paid much better purely on tips, but it also creates bad incentives on how you conduct business and interact with customers..."
Heaven forbid you get rewarded for treating people well!
More like it's similar to panhandling and extortion.
If tips were before the meal, sure. After is a reward, and if you think that means the diner is extorting good service from the waiter and cooks, then every business transaction is extortion. Workers are paid after the fact too.
I took that line as meaning he felt it was as though the waitstaff were extorting the diner, when combined with the "panhandling" part. i.e.: "I'm gonna treat you like crap unless you tip well at the end." Though I suppose that only works for repeat customers, so maybe I was the one who misunderstood that.
A few separate issues with taxation of tips
1) tip income is income and should be taxed the same as all other income. One of the common problems for the employee is there is often very little if any federal and state income tax withholding on the tips and as such the employee winds up owing a significant tax balance due.
2) the administrative costs for the employer and the employee of accounting for tip income and reporting, paying the fica both halfs of the company and employee fica is extensive.
I don’t disagree. It’s just that tax should be 0%.
This would all be much simpler if we just got rid of all the democrat spending (grift, bullshit social programs, funding organizations that fund terrorism, etc,).
This would all be much simpler if we just got rid of all the democrat s
pending (grift, bullshit social programs, funding organizations that fund terrorism, etc,).Sure, and the government should give everybody unicorns. However, setting income and OASDI taxes to 0% for everybody will take much bigger changes than anyone else has suggested in this discussion. And if you don't make those broader changes, setting them to 0% for these employees just means somebody else needs to pay for the benefits that these employees get.
1) The tip wage credit is pretty well calculated to cover tax withholding and the employee share of benefits. Back in the dark ages, when people paid in cash, 75 to 90 percent of the server paychecks where I worked payroll were zero dollar checks. The servers lived on the cash tips and the part that went through payroll paid for the deductions.
2) The computer takes care of that. Reported tips are entered just like hours worked. No big deal on the data entry side.
I have no problem with actual voluntary tips being untaxed. I'm not ok with quasi-mandatory tips being the bulk of their income and then giving further benefits. There isn't a good enough rationale for laws treating waiters as some special class of employee not subject to the same labor laws as the rest of us.
The only thing special waiters get in most places is a lower minimum wage, due to tip income. So, you're saying that it's unfair or they don't pay their fair share if we don't tax the tips for jobs where that's the majority of their income?
So, if you raise them to standard minimum wage at least, how does that solve that?
If tips make up a small fraction of the employees' income, such that customers are not pushed to tip (lest the employees be underpaid on net), then much less tax revenue is lost from not taxing those tips.
Exactly. Most of the proposals I have seen still want tips reported for Social Security reasons. Whether they want to deduct FICA taxes from tips, I do not remember, but they definitely want it reported. I imagine it affects state unemployment insurance too, and then there are state and city income taxes.
It's one of the reasons I hate income and consumption taxes. Both require extensive government snooping, such as work off the books, yard sales, flea markets. A garage I went to for about 20 years charged less for cash work, especially if I paid for the parts. I know carpenters and other construction workers who only work for cash. Naturally governments hate that.
Consumption taxes do not require "extensive government snooping"—no more than state sales taxes, for which the "snooping" is quite minimal, orders of magnitude less than for income or capital gains taxes. If you want LESS snooping, then advocate for consumption taxes instead of income tax.
https://fairtax.org/
Yeah, pure consumption taxes are infinitely preferable to taxes on earnings. Unfortunately, we have both, and also property taxes and payroll taxes and estate taxes.
Don’t forget vice taxes.
I don't own my home, I rent it from the goverment
The snooping is not minimal. I gad a job dealing with how to get computers to call other computers to calculate taxes, and learned a lot of weird rules in the process.
* What happens to fractional sales taxes? A naive first guess is that the state looks at total sales and wants a check for 7.5%, the county for 1.2%, and the city for 0.7%. Some states collect it all and spread the loot. But they don't care just about total sales. If an individual sale chalks up a fractional sales tax, like 8.7 cents, and the store charges 9 cents, that state wants that 9 cents. They have the authority to check all receipts. They also have the authority to check all purchases to make sure everything is accounted for. I doubt they do very often, but it's a great political cudgel to use against uppity merchants who buck the system or insult the powers that be.
* Governments limit yard sales and audit flea markets for the same reason. Again, the odds of getting caught are slim, but they still have that authority to punish uppity citizens.
* Governments really hate barter. Trading dental work for a new roof? That's a lot of undeclared income and sales taxes they want.
It’s still far less invasive than our current system.
1 Rounding. You already did it in the example. That isn't a major intrusion (beyond some taxes going up).
2 And in those cases, they bust people for reasons that aren't sales tax related. They are almost always zoning.
3 And? That isn't a complaint about snooping that doesn't apply to just about any other tax.
The issue isn't the rounding. It's needing to see every receipt.
The issues are all tax-related. They wouldn't need to do that if there were no income or sales taxes.
The idea of sales tax bureaucrats rifling through individual receipts is an absurd fantasy. I've worked in retail. The monthly sales tax return was one page. It took about ten minutes to fill it out. No one was coming to pour over receipts of individual sales. No one cared who made the purchases. As I said above, it is orders of magnitude below the level of "snooping" required by income or capital gains taxes.
Given the current reality that the government is going to extract taxes from us somehow, if you’re against sales, income, and tariff taxes, what do you propose? Genuinely curious as I know some people subscribe to a more Georgian land tax.
Zero Federal taxes. Entirely voluntary National Scratch-off Lottery. Every program has a separate scratch-off game/card/ticket. Anyone (citizen, illegal alien, tourist, diplomat) can purchase tickets/play the "game." Programs are funded, or not, solely from the proceeds of their respective game/card/ticket.
So screw the poor schmoe who works in the kitchen or buses tables for minimal wage and gets taxed on all of it.
It's common for waitstaff to split tips with the kitchen and bus staff
Eliminate the special rules for tipped wages and then I'm down for removing taxes on tips. On the surface level, I'm happy if the government takes less of people's money. More broadly, I hate that restaurants outsource their payroll to customers and find it wrong that those employees get a carveout where 90%+ of their income isn't subject to the same taxes as the rest of us.
Fuck taxes, but also fuck tip culture and government rules that encourage it.
Indeed, fuck this noise. Most tipped employees are already paying less taxes than most people based on their untra-low tax bracket and the fact that they don't report a huge chunk of their tip income. But for sure, let's exacerbate that in the name of fairness or feels or something.
The closer we get to a flat tax with no deductions and no special carveouts, the better. This is just a further perversion of the tax code to buy more votes. Not just no, but fuck no.
Even better, lots of user fees (which, for commercial users, get baked into prices) and a head tax. At least for one year, that might finally get normies to question our gigantic government and federal budget.
And if we have to have income taxes of any kind, no mandated withholding. Again, it would be instructional for most people to complete their tax return forms AND then have to write a big check. Too many idiots think their tax "refund" is a windfall.
And we should move Tax Day forward six months, to October 15th, so it's nice and fresh as people go to the polls.
Brilliant!
. . . and into the holiday spending season.
On top of going to the polls with that tax bill fresh in their mind, there will also be the knowledge of how much less they have to spend on the holidays when they cast their vote.
"I hate that restaurants outsource their payroll to customers"
Econ 101: Name any profitable business that doesn't rely on its customers to pay all of its business expenses, including labor.
+1
Where . . . where do you think the payroll money comes from?
The customers.
The customers were already paying for everything. Tips just allow customers to real-time adjust income based on productivity.
[deleted b/c the point has already been made]
Off-topic: interesting discussion of federal budgeting and spending records. For instance, there's a web site, usaspending.gov, which is way out of whack:
NOTE: this does not mean the feds are spending $3 trillion more than everyone thinks. It means their books don't balance.
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2025/03/03/doges_key_revelation_a_federal_budget_made_into_a_maze_impervious_to_reform_1093963.html
NOTE: this does not mean the feds are spending $3 trillion more than everyone thinks. It means their books don't balance.
Clearly, they aren't properly reporting their tips. 😉
Just the tips.
The whole federal income tax thing started with just the tip. Now we are all fucked.
how come I now have to tip the person at the Dunkin’ Donuts register who does nothing but take my order
So when you tip 0, they know to give you the donuts with extra seasoning. Be thankful they don't serve lobster bisque.
By the time you pay, you already have your donuts. Just don't go back often enough for them to remember you.
Not about tips specifically, but it still applies……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlR_ccnZww
I must have missed that episode. Hysterical. I was thinking of fight club.
how come I now have to tip the person at the Dunkin’ Donuts register who does nothing but take my order
Maybe because Dunkin' Donuts wants you to be the one to pay the employee's wages directly instead of them having to do it? It's advantageous for a business to reduce its payroll that way for a few reasons:
- It avoids their share of the payroll tax
- It reduces their labor costs on the books
- Which allows them to sell their products at nominally lower prices, attracting more business
- Having some of the real cost of the product be in the form of tips is basically fooling the customer into thinking that the price is lower than what they will end up paying.
No. 1 is wrong; every proposal I have seen still wants tips reported for that very reason, to include in FICA calculations. The books damn well better reflect it if they audit you.
No, Dunkin employees are regular employees, not 'tipped employees' like full service wait staff. Someone just decided to add a tip like on the credit card transaction options, or put a jar out on the counter. This has zero to do with the corporation trying to save money or avoid taxes. It's about the staff seeing an opportunity for them to get some additional money due to people being overly polite.
Good grief, you leftists have one old broken hammer, that doesn't even work anymore, and still all you see is nails, everywhere.
While I tend to be cynical about things, I suspect the rise in "do you want to add a tip" on credit card machines and whatnot is much less a change in attitude in businesses trying to actually get more tips, and more of a problem on the programming/supplier side. They make the tips option the default and stores that implement them don't have the tech-savvy to change the defaults.
Also, in full-service tipped position situations, such as at sit-down restaurants, the businesses and the employees both do in fact pay all of the payroll taxes. When I waited tables and tended bar, when I clocked out at the end of the night, I reported my tips for payroll purposes. The small 'tipped employee' minimum wage that I received of $3.25/hr or so was basically just there to cover my side of those payroll taxes. Every couple of weeks I would get a nominal paycheck in the $5 - $25 range. Sometimes, I owed.
The employees are supposed to report their full tips. Some are more honest than others.
You don't.
Grow a pair or get over it.
1. Shameless greed. (Yes, this applies as much to the counter staff at DD as it does to CEOs.)
2. Opportunity for virtue signaling for righteous customers.
No. Removing taxes on tips is an awry idea. All types of income should be taxed the same. It is not right that some Nanking $50k a year in wages is taxed more than somone making $$25k in wages and $25k in tips.
Suddenly you got principles about fair treatment?
Yes the 25k rape of Nanking.
Government and NGO workers like yourself should be taxed triple.
Implement McCarthyism 2.0. Strip them of personhood and make them unemployable.
Along the way, also strip their voting rights. Anyone dipping into the federal trough does not deserve a say in how we fill that trough.
And here we see Molly’s greed on full display.
Also, thanks for proving yet again you don’t care about poor and middle class people.
Fucking evil.
Tony sneers at them. He considers himself intellectually superior. Yet he is obviously stupid.
It was a Great Idea! With best Best of Intentions! What could possibly go wrong?
Even those with PhD's?
PornHub for Chemjeff and Molly/Tony:
Troops of the new Syrian regime, al-Qaeda terrorists, to whom Germany just donated €50 million in January, are engaged in ethnic cleansing. 100s of dead Alawites, Christians, Druze lie in the streets of Tartus and Latakia, where an uprising of Syrian minorities began yesterday. [video]
Syria's new government was broadly praised for its "moderate" nature by the neoliberal intelligentsia and the legacy media. Here's a video of them abusing minority Alawites for fun before executing them, also for fun. [video]
An actual genocide is currently being perpetrated by the CIA/EU's Syrian Islamist regime against Syrian Christians, Druze, and Alawites, and barely anybody is talking about it.
Jeff and Tony must be hard as diamonds right now.
Some of the videos are hard to watch.
Tulsi was right.
They’ll masturbate furiously to those videos. Sarc will probably do a shot every time they murder a Christian too.
It's not pointless. It employs useless eaters at the IRS. It might cost more than it brings in to enforce, but why should the useless eaters care? They are useless and causing misery is priceless.
It's a jobs program for Black women with useless college degrees.
Ask yourself if you would have said that in front of a Black person that you want to respect you. Then you'll understand why I'm muting you. And feel free to return the favor. I'd be happy if you did. If only Sevo would do that.
People who say they mute others are probably liars, but definitely virtue signalers, prima donnas who think everyone else is dying to know. You probably tweet pictures of the food you're about to eat too.
What’s it called when you post to Mastadon? That’s where all the cool kids are nowadays.
Mastabaiting?
lol, nice
People who say they mute others are probably liars, but definitely virtue signalers
Hey now, I mute plenty of people, and the only virtue I'm trying to signal is that of "not feeding the trolls". (Or the Trunk Bears, of course.) Folks who only ever contribute noise rather than signal, and even worse, induce otherwise signal producing people into contributing significant amounts of noise as well.
Like, every godsdamned article, Sarc, Cartman, and Buttpedo are going to say stupid trolling shit, TonyGodiva and JewFree will probably say something completely idiotic, and all of the above will bait folks into a bunch of "Nuh, unh, you're the one that smells funny!" for several pages of grey boxes interleaved with commenters who are perfectly capable of producing commentary worth reading, but have at that moment been baited into wrestling with a pig. They both end up coated in pigshit, but the pig actually enjoys it.
But, whatever, I've said this part several times, they say it's critical to make sure that someone is refuting the Usual Morons, for all of the new commenters we get around here, who otherwise might not realize those people were morons. *shrug*
I still end up just scrolling right past a bunch of stuff, but at least this way I don't get my eye snagged by something that's so flamingly unintelligent that I then get baited into a slapfight with a 'tard. I'm sure it helps my blood pressure remain sane.
Why don’t you just GTFO? You’re a goddamned neo Marxist. Bigot anyway. There is no place for your kind here.
And really, how dare you try to shame ANYONE? As a Marxist, you’re in solidarity with genocidal murderers, and the worst racists in human history.
And this has what to do with taxing tips?
Just trying to clean out the trash here.
Most black people I know agree with this sentiment
Remember, JasonT20 is in favor of shooting unarmed protestors. He is a not a decent human being and should be shamed for his god awful ideas.
You write that like anyone cares about your opinion on anything.
You write that like anyone cares about your opinion on anything.
"Black women with useless college degrees"
You mean the most reliably solid Democratic voters?
And it's obvious why that is. Buying votes works, and often it's not even very expensive.
More PornHub for Chemjeff and Molly/Tony:
•12 billion dollars was allocated to the Navy for submarines and not one submarine was built. The Navy poured $2.4B into submarine suppliers since 2018 with zero accountability—contractors kept the cash while delivery timelines kept slipping. Block 5 contracts follow the same scam: guaranteed profits for defense giants even when they miss every target.
•42.5 billion dollars was allocated to hook people up to high-speed Internet, and not one single person was hooked up to high-speed Internet.
•7.5 billion dollars was allocated to build EV charging stations. Only 37 stations were built. That's $200 million per charging station.
•USAID funneled millions into the media to push propaganda and enforce groupthink:
•Politico: $34.3M
•NY Times: $50M
•AP: $19.5M
•Reuters: $9M
•BBC: $3.3M
Explain to me why the DOD funds Sesame Street with almost 20M a year? It is just for making Elmo gets the jab propaganda?
It’s just an easy way to launder money.
"ONE billion dollars. TWO billion dollars. THREE billion dollars. Ah, ah, ah!"
Hah! I made that exact joke on a YouTube video showing footage of some people in the costumes of Sesame Street characters protesting DOGE, and the Count was one of them. I objected that of all of those characters, he at least should be on our side there. For that very reason. 😀
I think we are starting to understand the 20 billion dollar ev charging station.
Your "facts" are a mix of stuff you don't agree with or you are just wrong. The US did not spend $42.5 B for internet, it plans to spend that much and the project is still in an early stage. The US did not spend $7.5 for EV chargers, it plans to spend that much and the project is still in an early stage.
Lying is the only debate style that MAGAs know.
Uh, sure. So (1) you have no problem with the feds spending $7.5 billion (or whatever) on EV charging stations and (2) don't care about effective spending to date, and just overall progress.
Fuck you.
Lets say a building pays to have 100 windows cleaned for $1000. If on the first day after working out logistics the workers clean 10 windows, you can't say that those 10 windows cost $100 each to clean. You are ignoring that the project is not complete yet.
And ya know, that's about how fast government workers (pretend to) work. Any private business would fire those window washers and demand their money back. That is what Trump is claiming to do.
If I have a contract with a company to clean 100 windows for $1000 in 4 days, I can't cancel the contract and demand my money back after day 1. That is what Trump wants to do.
Every contract the government has is signed to a contracting official who makes sure the company is following the terms of the contract. If the official is not doing that, then their management needs to address that. If the contract is written badly than there is not much to be done other than make sure that future contracts are written better.
In order to promote fairness and competition, compliance with laws, and reduce waste and fraud, federal contracting is very complicated.
"If I have a contract with a company to clean 100 windows for $1000 in 4 days, I can't cancel the contract and demand my money back after day 1. That is what Trump wants to do."
Every thing you say is not only an utter fucking lie, but also betrays a near retard view of business.
You absolutely can cancel a contract if services are not delivered. Who the hell do you imagine you're tricking by claiming that you can't? At worst you pay a fee for whatever they spent on tooling, research, prototypes, etc.
You can also cancel a contract if the company you contracted hasn't met the terms or timeframe.
ActBlue or Media Matters or whoever is paying you to post here aren't sending their best.
But you can cancel the contract if the windows remain uncleaned *four years later*.
Molly, I will pay you 1000 to chew the broken glass from 100 windows.
It's been almost 4 years dumdum.
And you are ignoring the basic question: WTF is government doing paying for EV stations (or cleaning windows)?
Plus, what are the odds that after doing 10% of the job, government workers ARE done?
If the rest of the windows remain uncleaned 4 years later and the first 10 windows are now dirty again - now what is the per-window cost of the program?
Vaguely correct in a very basic sense, but it took years to build the few chargers they did, while private companies built thousands more cheaply. Once again you distract from the gist with pedantry.
3 years is the early process for standard infrastructure production? Lol.
MollyGodiva is an example of why California's Train to Nowhere is going Nowhere fast.
Your "facts" are a mix of stuff you don't agree with or you are just wrong.
This is an utter fucking lie, and you know that Tony, you shitty discount shill. What a waste of USAID money you are.
The US did not spend $42.5 B for internet, it plans to spend that much and the project is still in an early stage.
This is a lie too.
There's no early stage here. It was three years ago, and much of the money has been spent on nothing. The $42 billion price-tag is sufficient to provide 12 years’ worth of Starlink service — $44,000 — for each impacted household. Even if we presume all the 24 million households currently without access will benefit from increased access and affordability, this comes to $1750 per household. Can't do cheap and easy Starlink though, because rocketmanbad.
And nobody has been signed.
The US did not spend $7.5 for EV chargers, it plans to spend that much and the project is still in an early stage.
This is another lie.
The planned was stalled out because the Bidenistas didn't want to by unbranded Tesla superchargers for dirt cheap, again because rocketmanbad, so they've blown most of the money on planning to invent new ones and grift.
This so what happens every time. They can't admit the free market does things well, so every government contract spends 90% of the time and money on reinventing the wheel (and comes with a square)
Thanks! Now Elon knows where to look!
If these are even more-or-less true, then it's time for an independent audit, not a chainsaw.
“7.5 billion dollars was allocated to build EV charging stations. Only 37 stations were built. That's $200 million per charging station.”
If anyone believes they actually spent $200Million on an EV charging station, they are even dumber than Molly and shrike.
I wish people would simply express their policy concerns and stop pretending it is about nerdy accountant obsessive-compulsive disorder.
The only thing hindering the great empire of America from printing money and spending it on whatever the fuck it wants is the impending destruction of the great empire of America by traitorous fascist scrotums.
Or is it scrota?
Because spending your way to prosperity has worked so well for the countries that have tried it?
The ability to spend is a consequence of prosperity.
How do you exercise prosperity?
No, the ability to spend is a consequence of having money.
Governments that print money to 'spend their way into prosperity' destroy their countries.
Only once or twice and because of exigent circumstances.
Either you want old people to die of starvation or not.
Edit - meant as a reply but posted in the wrong place.
I'll admit to not reading the article, because I have what I believe is an even better idea. Don't have tips. Pay workers a wage such that tips wouldn't needed for the worker to want to do the job. If you want a server at a restaurant to do a good job, then managers can do their jobs of paying attention to how the servers interact with customers and how efficient they are at taking orders, checking to see if the customer wants anything, and delivering the food as soon as its ready. If the customer isn't happy with the service, they can let the restaurant know that by filling out an optional survey, telling the manager when the manager goes around asking customers if they need anything else and if they are happy with everything, or simply by whether they come back. The restaurant's bottom line will be information to the managers and owners about how well the staff is doing at pleasing customers.
After all, that is how it works in every business and industry where customers don't tip the employees that serve them.
Just to note, I did read the article, and there is nothing I would change about my post.
Pay workers a wage such that tips wouldn't needed for the worker to want to do the job.
What if the job isn't worth that much? Why pay anyone $2 to build a $1 widget? At its absolute best that job is worth $0.99.
For many jobs, especially on the lower rungs, the question of "do they want to do it" is irrelevant. They accept the job because they have zero bargaining power in the situation and they don't want to starve to death.
If they want to improve their wages, it's not on the employer to be charitable - it's on the employee to increase said bargaining power.
What if the job isn't worth that much? Why pay anyone $2 to build a $1 widget? At its absolute best that job is worth $0.99.
Um, the thing with tips is that the job is worth the amount that customers are paying when their tips are included. Or else they wouldn't be buying whatever it is and tipping the service worker. I am asking this: why doesn't the employer pay the worker the same amount that the worker is already getting, but then, the business would naturally charge more for the product or service to account for that. But that shouldn't be worse for the customer, because they'd still be paying the same. They just wouldn't be dividing up their bill between what the business gets and what they tip.
Now, that is better for the employee, because they'd know what their wage was going to be reliably and that it wouldn't fluctuate based on whether they got enough customers willing to tip, or enough customers at all. It is also better for the customer, because the real price is clear, rather than it being a nominal price before a tip is added.
The arguments I'm seeing in favor of tipping culture come down to it being better for the business to do things that way, whether the person defending it realizes it or not.
If they want to improve their wages, it's not on the employer to be charitable - it's on the employee to increase said bargaining power.
They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, huh?
You know how workers have increased their bargaining power the most over the last two centuries? By forming unions. I'm guessing that isn't what you were thinking that workers should do, though.
Um, the thing with tips is that the job is worth the amount that customers are paying when their tips are included. Or else they wouldn't be buying whatever it is and tipping the service worker.
No it's not. It's a guilt tax.
Let's you and I go to a restaurant. We'll buy the exact same meal, and get the exact same service from the exact same server. I will pay $20 for it, because that's the tab. You'll pay $23.50 for it. Why?
What did you get that I didn't?
I am asking this: why doesn't the employer pay the worker the same amount that the worker is already getting
Because the value of their human labor doesn't take into account the guilt tax that a consumer feels socially obligated to contribute.
Now, that is better for the employee
Who cares.
It is also better for the customer, because the real price is clear, rather than it being a nominal price before a tip is added.
Only if the customer feels socially obligated to tip. Otherwise, the price remains the price.
They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, huh?
Yes.
You know how workers have increased their bargaining power the most over the last two centuries? By forming unions.
Yea, we should break those. Bar employment to them, full on blackball if you join one. Then hire scabs.
The fact that scabs exist show that any demands of unions are 100% unreasonable.
You have to be deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying at this point.
Let's you and I go to a restaurant. We'll buy the exact same meal, and get the exact same service from the exact same server. I will pay $20 for it, because that's the tab. You'll pay $23.50 for it. Why?
No, no, and no, that has nothing to do with my argument.
We go to a restaurant. You pay $23.50 for the meal, because that is the price on the menu and no one is expecting you to tip because that menu price covers all of the cost of the labor to get you that meal in addition to all other costs. I pay $20.00 for the meal, but I tip $3.50 because the server is getting paid less in wages so that the restaurant can afford to put $20 on the menu instead of $23.50.
I'm all for getting rid of tipping if the businesses that rely on tipped employees operate under the same labor conditions as every other business that doesn't.
The fact that scabs exist show that any demands of unions are 100% unreasonable.
That's some serious bullshit. It shows that people are desperate enough to do what they think they need to in order to survive now, even if it hurts them more in the long run.
Yea, we should break those. Bar employment to them, full on blackball if you join one. Then hire scabs.
Right, fuck workers. They can take what they're offered or starve.
We go to a restaurant. You pay $23.50 for the meal
No. I don't. The meal is $20. I pay $20.
You are paying extra, for whatever reason. (Guilt.)
I pay $20.00 for the meal, but I tip $3.50 because the server is getting paid less in wages so that the restaurant can afford to put $20 on the menu instead of $23.50.
Why do I care about the server? I'm there for the $20 meal.
That's some serious bullshit. It shows that people are desperate enough to do what they think they need to in order to survive now, even if it hurts them more in the long run.
Language.
No, that's some serious reality.
Look, it's very simple. I have a box that needs to be moved from A to B. Employee #1 is willing to do it for $1. Employee #2 wants $2 to move it.
Why would I ever pay the latter?
Right, fuck workers. They can take what they're offered or starve.
Language.
And no, it's not "fuck workers." It's "learn what you're actually worth, worker."
You seem to be pitching some kind of need-based entitlement mentality. One that neglects the actual value of a human resource.
So again I ask you, in dollars: what is the actual dollar value for the skill, expertise, experience, and ability of a waitress.
No. I don't. The meal is $20. I pay $20.
That was your hypothetical. I was countering your hypothetical with a different one that actually represents my argument. You're being really obtuse here in not trying to understand what I am saying. So, I apologize that my frustration with that leaked out in my language.
And no, it's not "fuck workers." It's "learn what you're actually worth, worker."
The whole concept of "worth" in the theoretical free market is what people are willing to pay, right? So, if you don't want to pay $2 for someone to move a box from point A to point B, then the labor isn't worth that much, to you. Now, someone else might be willing to pay that much, and then you won't be able to find someone to do that for you at a price of $1.
But the reality of the labor market, not the theoretical free market, is that it is not a free exchange with equal opportunity for owners and workers. A laborer has far more immediate need to earn money than a business and its owners*. That is built-in leverage in any negotiations in favor of the owners that can't be waved away with ideology. The advantage doesn't shift to workers unless one of two conditions are met: there is a major scarcity of labor, or workers unionize and bargain collectively.
It's right there in the name: capitalism. Capital (the owners of wealth) has the advantage and always will. It seems to me that this is what you want.
*The net profit margin of Tesla was negative for 10 years. Uber was negative in the billions of dollars for years before recently. That is the nature of investing for the long-term. With a large majority of the population living paycheck to paycheck, they have to be working and getting paid every week possible. A business? It can afford to do without workers for months as they strike if that means that they can lock in a contract for years that earns them a greater profit over those years than if they had met the workers' demands.
So again I ask you, in dollars: what is the actual dollar value for the skill, expertise, experience, and ability of a waitress.
I don't know. And I don't know because I've never paid a server directly. (Even the tip isn't all that they get paid from serving me, so I don't really know how much of their compensation comes from my tip. Not to mention that, typically, servers divide their tips with other people working at the restaurant.) I pay for the whole meal, including the service. My point, if you still don't understand it, is that it shouldn't matter to me at all whether the price of the whole meal is divided between a bill from the restaurant and a tip to the server or if no tip is expected or given and I just pay a single bill to the restaurant.
That was your hypothetical. I was countering your hypothetical with a different one that actually represents my argument.
Your hypothetical changed the first premise: that the meal is $20. That's the price point based on cost of ingredients (as well as any general restaurant overhead); skill/manpower to produce; and the skill/manpower of a server to take, enter, and deliver your order; plus a profit margin.
The cost of the server is already built into the price point, and it's determined by the value the server conveys to the restaurant in exchange for her wages/salary.
It's not $23.50 for me, and $20 for you. It's $20 for both me AND you.
You simply elect to pay more than its actual value (but, oddly, only to the server - not to the chefs, kitchen staff, or restaurant owner). You have yet to explain your reasoning for this, but for the occasional reference to some kind of social guilt.
Tell me, should a meal from a restaurant necessarily come with a serving of guilt?
The whole concept of "worth" in the theoretical free market is what people are willing to pay, right?
Indeed. But more importantly, you have to consider the vice versa - how much they're willing to accept as payment. Because that often defines the value of the job itself.
Reference back to my reply on the nature of bargaining power. Those with higher bargaining power can command higher wages, because the employer needs them more than they need the employer.
But when it's low skill, low demand, the bargaining power flips. Especially when there's and available pool of workers that renders the individual worker expendable.
This is where the reasoning of the collective bargaining concept falls apart. Simply deny them it, and you'll see - there will be plenty of scabs happy to fill the void. (The same, incidentally, happens when you impose artificial overhead - eg. minimum wages, mandatory health coverage, etc. Hence the nation's clamoring for illegals who will "do the jobs Americans won't." It's not that they won't - it's that employers don't think it's worth it to pay more than the actual value of the work.)
It's right there in the name: capitalism. Capital (the owners of wealth) has the advantage and always will. It seems to me that this is what you want.
Of course. Why wouldn't we?
With a large majority of the population living paycheck to paycheck, they have to be working and getting paid every week possible.
Yes, hence the maxim: beggars can't be choosers.
Especially when they're threatening the investment of those who makes their job possible by demanding - unreasonably - more than said job is actually worth.
I don't know. And I don't know because I've never paid a server directly.
Why not? You seem to assert some responsibility for his livelihood. Why NOT pay a server directly if that's the case?
I pay for the whole meal, including the service.
Let me ask you this. You and I go to the same restaurant. We are seated next to each other, and have the same server. I order the Seafood Tower and an entree of Filet Mignon. My bill is $100. You order Onion Rings and an entree of Meatloaf. Your bill is $20.
Assuming (as many have suggested) a standard percentage of tip (let's call it the traditional 15%) - why has the server "earned," why do they "deserve," $12 more from me than from you for doing literally the exact same job of taking, placing, and delivering our orders?
The point I'm trying to make is that your "tip" isn't based on the value of the server at all. It has nothing to do with him. So why pretend like it does?
My point is that it shouldn't matter to me at all whether the price of the whole meal is divided between a bill from the restaurant and a tip to the server or if no tip is expected or given and I just pay a single bill to the restaurant.
And if the value of the meal - which includes the value of the waitstaff - is $20, then $20 is all you should pay. Why pay one penny more for something than it's actually worth?
Unless, as I said, you're also purchasing a helping of guilt assuagement.
You simply elect to pay more than its actual value (but, oddly, only to the server - not to the chefs, kitchen staff, or restaurant owner). You have yet to explain your reasoning for this, but for the occasional reference to some kind of social guilt.
You missed the part where I mention that servers typically share their tips with other staff, particularly the kitchen staff. Read what I'm writing more carefully.
All of this and you still don't get it. The servers work at that restaurant expecting tips. So, no, the full cost of their labor is not already factored into the $20 in your scenario. Only the direct cost to the employer is. If every customer stopped tipping like you say you do, then that completely changes the whole calculation for the server to decide whether to work there, If the restaurant then isn't able to get servers at what they were paying in wages for that $20 meal, then they will have to increase the price in order to pay servers more. Gee, they might even have to raise the price to that $23.50 I had been paying for the meal + the tip. But hey, as long most of us are "guilt-tripped" into paying tips, then you can still go to restaurants and pay that $20. Is that why you want to think of tips as an unnecessary guilt-trip? So that you can avoid tipping, pay a lower price than the rest of us, and feel superior about it?
So, let's just say I agree with your point of view, and so does everyone else, and tipping disappears completely. If you think that menu prices would stay the same, then you have no understanding of how any of this works.
You missed the part where I mention that servers typically share their tips with other staff, particularly the kitchen staff.
No, I didn't miss it. I simply pointed out that you don't actually know that.
You're assuming it, and it's not an unreasonable assumption - but at the end of the day it IS an assumption, and you may in fact be rewarding one employee and stiffing everyone else. Are you actually cool with that? Because your tenor thus far would suggest you're not.
So, why don't you break down the tip? Let's say it's your $20 meatloaf. Say $0.50 for the server; $0.50 for the busser; $0.50 for the head chef; $0.50 for the line cook; $0.50 for the hostess; and $0.50 for the owner.
Why don't you do that? Why doesn't it even occur to you to do that, if your argument is that you need to supplement their wages or paying for some "human experience" whatever that means.
All of this and you still don't get it. The servers work at that restaurant expecting tips.
I work in an office and expect tips. Literally, every time I do something outside of the scope of my explicit job description, I feel like someone should give me a little financial pat on the head. A twen there, a hundie if they're really happy. At least 15%, right?
But then, maybe my expectation isn't actually reasonable.
It's a question that should be asked of the servers too, don't you think?
So, no, the full cost of their labor is not already factored into the $20 in your scenario.
Yes it is.
If the value of your labor is $20/hr, you deserve $20/hr for said labor. You are trying to assert that $20/hr labor should instead be paid at $23.50/hr. In part by someone other than the employer.
This is total nonsense.
If every customer stopped tipping like you say you do, then that completely changes the whole calculation for the server to decide whether to work there
Yep, sure does.
If the restaurant then isn't able to get servers at what they were paying in wages for that $20 meal, then they will have to increase the price in order to pay servers more.
Yea, maybe they do. Probably don't - most low skill/low demand employees will happily accept whatever peanuts we deign to throw at them.
But that's the point. It's the value of the labor itself. If the value of the labor increases, then it makes perfect sense that the increase in charge to the consumer would follow.
BUT IF IT DOESN'T - and it NEVER WILL for low skill/low demand workers - then why should the consumer face a surcharge or a guilt tax?
So that you can avoid tipping, pay a lower price than the rest of us, and feel superior about it?
I just don't want to pay more for something than it's actual value. Why do you?
I have a widget that's worth exactly $5. Will you pay me $5 for it, or $7.50?
Human labor is no different. Especially in the low skill/low demand tier. They are just widgets. With a definable value.
(And I'll tell you another place where this is a serious problem - educators. They are virtually worthless. A dime a dozen, and most of them not worth their own salt. And yet they think they're entitled to FAR FAR FAR more than what they're actually worth. But - especially in public education, the single most expendable employee ever - it's another industry where we feel stupidly compelled to pay them WAY more than the value they actually contribute to those paying for it.)
No, I didn't miss it. I simply pointed out that you don't actually know that.
I do know because I have worked at a restaurant, I've had many friends that worked in restaurants, and we all experienced the same thing where we gave a portion of our tips to be divided among the other staff. It was so unremarkable that we did, in that no one expressed any surprise or had any complaints about it, that I am confident that it is very common in U.S. restaurants.
Yea, maybe they do. Probably don't - most low skill/low demand employees will happily accept whatever peanuts we deign to throw at them.
And this explains pretty much everything. You view honest work that is "low skill/low demand" to be so far beneath you that they should accept whatever "peanuts [you] deign to throw at them."
Live in your aristocratic bubble of privilege and look down on your lessers all you want. I will continue to believe that people are worth more than whatever wage the 'free market' will give them. A market that is not free, but is instead skewed to benefit people like you that don't know what it means to have to physically labor to put food on the table.
I do know because I have worked at a restaurant, I've had many friends that worked in restaurants, and we all experienced the same thing where we gave a portion of our tips to be divided among the other staff.
Ahh, so in such cases where that's known, you're actually being kind of a cheapskate then. You say you're tipping 15%, with the knowledge that NONE of the staff will get that much. Why aren't you tipping them EACH 15%? Like, literally, why don't you say "Call out all the staff here so that I can give you each a share of extra money, in addition to the actual value of what I cam here for, to compensate for what I declare is your insufficient wages?"
You don't do that, do you.
And this explains pretty much everything. You view honest work that is "low skill/low demand" to be so far beneath you that they should accept whatever "peanuts [you] deign to throw at them."
See, when you pepper your language like that, you're being disingenuous. I never said that the work isn't honest or that it's beneath me. I said that the work - and the employee - have very little market value.
A) Because the skills and abilities necessary to do it are minimum (if not non-existent; as I often say of some of my own employees "I could go grab a guy off the street and teach them the whole of the job in an hour").
B) Because there's a huge supply of workforce available to do it (and will outbid each other TO do it). Answer me this honestly: why pay a guy $2/hr when another guy will happily do it for $1/hr? Want to try this sometime? Next time you have a task that requires some hard manual labor, stop by the Home Depot or the Uhaul to pick up some illegals. When you get over the initial hilarity of them all fighting each other to be the first into the bed of your pickup, tell them how many people you need and then let THEM decide how much they want for it. They will literally start shouting lower and lower numbers. Last guy in the bed gets the job, and you get it from him on the cheap.
Because they know - unlike Americans - that beggars can't be choosers. They can jump in my truck and get $20 that day, or they can hold out for better and maybe wind up with nada.
Industries like food service (or assembly lines, or fruit pickers, or public school teachers, or congressmen) are no different. Any idiot can do it, and there's no shortage of idiots. Hence, the market value of the job and the market value of their labor goes down.
And that's the only thing that matters: the market value.
A market that is not free, but is instead skewed to benefit people like you that don't know what it means to have to physically labor to put food on the table.
Y'know, a long time ago, my mother used to describe me as the kind of person who would rather use their brain instead of their body to earn a living. That's always stuck with me. Kinda like the maxim "Work smart, not hard."
I don't physically labor because I worked hard to better myself and put myself into a position where I have greater market value than my physical capacity to do simple labor. In doing so, I increased my bargaining power and have more to bring to the table when negotiating salary. In a very real sense, I've built myself up in such a way that an employer needs me more than I need him. If you've never experienced the ability to turn a job down because you can do better than what they're offering, you might not understand this.
Again: the name of the game is market value.
Do you know why it's called "human resources?" Because the humans ARE a resource. And they absolutely have determinable value. The same goes for the job itself. It has a determinable value. Everything else is irrelevant.
The brain surgeon may have a very high value due to his knowledge, skill, and ability - but he'll never get what he'd earn as a surgeon if he instead applied to be a food server. Because it doesn't TAKE a surgeon to serve the food. The job itself is far less valuable, and any random server doesn't bring much more to the table than any other server might as well.
This is just basic economics. I'm sorry you don't like it, but get over it.
Listen, you're the asshole.
Now I think I understand. You're an asshole and you feel you need externally imposed rules so you don't act like an asshole. That seems to be the standard thought process of collectivists.
Us? We're not assholes.
You seem to be replying to me, even though you replied under AT's comment. But you give no clue what it was that I said that made you think that. I can only think that you just wanted an excuse to rant about "collectivists" and call people you disagree with "assholes".
Language.
That seems to be the standard thought process of collectivists.
I'm not the one suggesting a social/cultural mandate to redistribute wealth on the premise that a person who does a job should earn more than that job is actually worth to the employer.
Now, if you wanted to call it charity - that'd be one thing. Who you choose to be charitable with and why is your business. But when an industry - say, the service industry - starts acting entitled to said charity and putting forth arguments that they "need" it to "live" - they stop being service industry, and start becoming panhandlers.
"But that shouldn't be worse for the customer, because they'd still be paying the same."
That's only true on average. There is some price discrimination and trading on the margin between those who are more or less generous with tips. I don't know how much that affects the total distribution of prices.
You want the employee to increase bargaining power while simultaneously removing the only power they have - the quality of the service they offer.
Again - collectivism. Independence is kulakism, no power for individuals, all power must be in the hands of the representatives of the collective.
You've never been to Europe, I see.
You are saying instead of tips, the employer should raise prices so they can collect that money *and then pass it on* to the employee rather than the customer doing it directly.
1. You people have a sexual fetish for 'employment'. You hate the concept of 'contractor' and that a contractor might have independence because *dependence* is the whole point of socialism. Independence is kulakism.
2. You don't want the person receiving the service to have a direct connection to the compensation received by the service provider. No consequences.
3. You want to add more inefficiency into the transactions by having a third party collect money and disburse it later.
You are saying instead of tips, the employer should raise prices so they can collect that money *and then pass it on* to the employee rather than the customer doing it directly.
Yes. Just like every business that doesn't rely on tipped employees. The vast majority of workers that interact directly with customers don't get tips. They only get paid by their employer.
You seem to think that all of those workers don't have sufficient incentive to please the customer. If that were true, then you would expect tipping to have expanded in all kinds of service industries as businesses would want their workers to have greater incentive to please customers, right? In my view, that it hasn't is evidence that it really isn't an efficient way to incentivize service workers, and other factors lead to the tipping culture we have in the U.S.
Your other arguments are so divorced from the reality of how people think about their employment that I don't even know where to begin.
1. Most other businesses don't have front counter staff that can directly affect customer satisfaction the way restaurants do.
2. Again, you want everyone to be either an employee or a boss. No hybrids allowed. Independence is kulakism.
I've just stopped tipping. I don't care anymore. The federal minimum wage is more than most tipped employees are worth in the first place.
Abolish the minimum wage, and I'll consider tipping again. Until then, I refuse to feed the leeches any more blood than I already have to.
How rude.
Tipped incomes are famously allowed do be subminimum wages.
Just tip 20% and stop bitching until our culture figures out how to pay waitresses a decent salary.
Let's talk real.
What is the market value of a human laborer who takes an order and gives it to the kitchen (which, btw, we can now 100% automate); then physically carries said ordered food/drink from one location to another?
Are there any other attributes to the occupation of "waitressing" that I'm leaving out?
How much per hour does that physical labor deserve to be paid, and why?
What is the market value of a human laborer who takes an order and gives it to the kitchen (which, btw, we can now 100% automate); then physically carries said ordered food/drink from one location to another?
You know what, you're absolutely right. If it isn't worth it for a business to pay a worker a wage that they can use to support themselves, then the job shouldn't exist. If that business can't be profitable without those jobs, then the business shouldn't exist. The owners and investors can then take their capital and invest it in something that can make a profit and pay its employees a wage that they can live on. Sounds a lot better than letting businesses pay people poverty wages and then have taxpayers support those working poor employees through welfare programs, doesn't it?
Or are you saying the the best of all options is to let businesses pay some employees poverty wages, if that's what the "market" is willing to pay, and to do away with any government support to help those workers deal with living in poverty?
You didn't answer the question. I was asking for the literal dollar value for the skill, expertise, experience, and ability of a waitress.
If it isn't worth it for a business to pay a worker a wage that they can use to support themselves, then the job shouldn't exist.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Why does the employer care even slightly whether the employee can "support themselves?"
There are always more employees.
The owners and investors can then take their capital and invest it in something that can make a profit and pay its employees a wage that they can live on.
But why? The only important thing is the profit. That's what owners and investors are investing in. If they're paying their employees more than they're worth, they're taking a loss. Why do that? Why even suggest anyone do that?
Sounds a lot better than letting businesses pay people poverty wages and then have taxpayers support those working poor employees through welfare programs, doesn't it?
Just dump the welfare programs. The taxpayers don't need to be supporting workers that have little-to-no market value. Why should they?
Or are you saying the the best of all options is to let businesses pay some employees poverty wages, if that's what the "market" is willing to pay, and to do away with any government support to help those workers deal with living in poverty?
Yes.
So, here's the thing about "poverty." It doesn't exist in America. And even if it did, the impoverished have 100% control over it. They simply refuse to exercise that control.
Let's go back to our $1 widget. Well, here's the thing - if you can't get people to BUILD that widget for less than a dollar, then it's not really a $1 widget, is it. Again, bargaining power. If nobody will work for terrible wages (though, their alternative is starvation), then obviously the widget producer will have to offer higher wages (and sell his widget higher to cover the offset).
But here's the dirty little secret - people will work for terrible wages. Because something is better than nothing.
It's all about who needs who more.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Why does the employer care even slightly whether the employee can "support themselves?"
There are always more employees.
There you go. Why should the military care about whether their soldiers survive battles, develop PTSD and commit suicide when they are done fighting, or can't get basic medical care outside of the immediate treatment needed to get them back on the battlefield? There are always more soldiers.
You are saying that the people running businesses shouldn't have any empathy for their workers. Maybe you read or listened to what Elon had said on Joe Rogan's podcast a couple weeks ago and nodded in approval. Short summary if you didn't: Elon said that western civilization has a kind of "civilizational suicidal empathy going on," and that empathy is exploited on an individual level to get people to do things that are bad for the collective. Which, I assume, would include worrying about whether a worker can make a living on what they are paid.
This is about as far from Christian theology as I can imagine, or any religious tradition I've ever learned anything about, though I am not religious at all and never have been. Whenever I see people talking up the moral teachings of Jesus, particularly what is in the Gospels, it always focuses on the importance of care and love for individuals, especially those less fortunate than ourselves, not for some greater good of society. Really, I take the lesson to be that we make society better for everyone by having empathy and caring deeply for individuals. If I could suppress my rational mind enough to have any belief in the supernatural, it is that message that might have made me be Christian.
I worry when I see influential people talk like they have lofty goals for society, but then also say that caring about individual people is a weakness that can be exploited. That is too similar to certain ideologies of the past that ended up being the most evil the world has ever seen.
There you go. Why should the military care about whether their soldiers survive battles, develop PTSD and commit suicide when they are done fighting, or can't get basic medical care outside of the immediate treatment needed to get them back on the battlefield?
Because what soldiers agree to is more akin to a promissory note. You do this, and in the future we'll do that.
Not really comparable to waitstaff.
You are saying that the people running businesses shouldn't have any empathy for their workers.
Empathy isn't factored into the equation. Why should it be?
It's about value. What is a human resource worth? Well, it's worth what it can produce measured against how many people can also produce it. This determines bargaining power. There's basically four categories:
High Skill, High Demand.
Low Skill, High Demand.
High Skill, Low Demand.
Low Skill, Low Demand.
The average waitstaff usually falls into the last category. Which means they have little to no bargaining power. Nor should they. Because they're not market valuable. They're expendable and easily replaced, with little to no disruption to overhead.
Short summary if you didn't: Elon said that western civilization has a kind of "civilizational suicidal empathy going on," and that empathy is exploited on an individual level to get people to do things that are bad for the collective.
I'd argue that it's bad for the individual. Regardless of which one we're talking about. One is guilted into paying more for something than what it's worth, when there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever conferred for doing so; the other is led to believe that they're worth more than what they actually are which breeds entitlement and ultimately empowers Statism (who comes to fill the void between actual value and entitled value).
This is about as far from Christian theology as I can imagine, or any religious tradition I've ever learned anything about, though I am not religious at all and never have been.
You should give it a try. He died for you, y'know. You could at least hear Him out.
(Don't listen to the Protestants or the Non-Denoms. They worship themselves more than they do God.)
Whenever I see people talking up the moral teachings of Jesus, particularly what is in the Gospels, it always focuses on the importance of care and love for individuals, especially those less fortunate than ourselves, not for some greater good of society.
Yea, that's charity. That's not what we're talking about.
Unscrupulous types like to exploit that. Remember: at the end of the day, we're talking about the actual value of the job itself, and questioning why one should pay more than it's worth.
Really, I take the lesson to be that we make society better for everyone by having empathy and caring deeply for individuals.
We make society better by raising better members of society. Not by coddling them into apathy and dependency. When they can only exist on the charity of others, we're not doing anything charitable for them by propping up that existence.
"Are there any other attributes to the occupation of "waitressing" that I'm leaving out?"
Yes, human connection. One of the reasons people go to restaurants is to connect with their local community. "Pub" is short for Public House. The waitress is the connection between the local business that gives food, drink, and a place to congregate, and the locals that pay extra for the first two for the last one.
Yes, human connection.
OK, put a dollar value on that.
I do every time I eat out. When I tip the waitress.
No, I mean an exact dollar value.
If "human connection" were a product you could pick up off the shelf, what would its price tag say?
In which market environment? If you want specifics, you're going to have to be specific. Is this shelf in Manhattan, or Minneapolis?
It doesn't matter.
Why should your widget - or "human connection" - cost more in one place than another? That's an issue with the State adding artificial overhead on top of baseline market value.
I'm talking about the literal, actual value of the widget itself. Or, "human connection," if folks want to keep calling it that. (And, since we're on the subject, let's just assume supply and demand are negligible.)
How much does it cost to produce a human connection? How much should one charge for it?
The market value is whatever the worker offers and the customer is willing to pay. It’s cultural custom to tip certain types of workers 20%, and I agree that it’s an abomination since that custom comes with a subminimum wage for those jobs.
Would that we could dispense with the whole nonsense and pay people a blanket minimum wage without the expectation of a gratuity. I like that idea.
No, see, that's a copout.
How much money are you personally willing to pay a human laborer to transport food a short distance? I want the actual dollar value. Break it down for me in terms of skill, experience, expertise, and ability. What exactly are you paying for and why?
If you could calculate that, then your tips wouldn't be contingent on the value of the meal itself, would it. The guy that gets the filet mignon would tip the same as the one who gets the meatloaf. This is where it all goes off the rails.
The wages of the waitress are irrelevant to all of this; I don't know why anyone keeps bringing them up. Unless you can articulate the value of paying a human resource to carry a thing a short distance from one place to another, and then explain why the employer isn't already giving them fair value for the task.
I personally hardly ever pay attention to what I pay for food but always tip 20% in the expected contexts so as not to feel like an asshole in front of people doing jobs I’d never do. It’s not necessarily a rational system, as I said, but it is culturally expected.
They haven’t made being an asshole illegal, and somehow I don’t think they’re going to any time soon, all things considered, so knock yourself out.
so as not to feel like an asshole in front of people doing jobs I’d never do.
So then it IS a self-imposed guilt tax, correct?
Or a silly roundabout way of paying salaries that allows you to be as much of an asshole boss as their bosses.
Are you the waitress' employer? Did you hire her based on her skills and abilities to physically transport plates with stuff on them via footpower from Location A to Location B?
"What is the market value of a human laborer who takes an order and gives it to the kitchen (which, btw, we can now 100% automate); then physically carries said ordered food/drink from one location to another?"
The market value is what they make in wages plus tips, obviously. If you don't want to pay that, there are restaurants that use other models for those functions, such as counter/quick service restaurants.
Are we talking about full service workers here, or random-assed places that have recently just started expecting a tip, like quick-service restaurants (fast food)?
Because there is a big difference.
They encourage a tip at lots of places now. Since money is fungible it’s not really that important whether it comes from the employer or the customer, but I do find it rather complicated and probably a sop to employers.
In the most charitably analysis, I suspect this phenomena is due to the prevalence of mass-marketed point-of-sale credit/debit processing machines. And I suspect the suppliers program them with a default "do you want to add a tip", or similar prompt, and the stores that implement them lack the tech-savvy to change the default.
Salary? So waitresses don't have shift hours? They can work when they want for as long as they want and still get the same amount of money?
How does that work then? Do they get a weekly minimum of tables served instead of a wage?
No tax on tips or overtime is a good idea that is long overdue.
Another good idea is no tax on income.
A national sales tax would be a much smoother, quicker and more efficient way to collect taxes.
Plus, I do not see why millionaires like Bernie Sanders and billionaires like Soros should receive Social Security checks.
A national sales tax would be a much smoother, quicker and more efficient way to collect taxes.
Oh, the wealthy that have so much money to burn that they can just dump huge amounts into a hole funding political campaigns would love that, I'm sure.
If they don’t tax tips, at least 50 IRS busybodies lose their jobs.
A double win!
But according to the Bee, they can easily get jobs as COSTCO receipt checkers.
The more consequential tax reforms are axing of taxing SS (retarded) and overtime (counterproductive).
I agree that taxing SS makes no sense. The government is giving you a check and then requiring you to give part of that check back. This then involves work for two agencies. I would instead not tax SS and just reduce the size of the payment. The average taxpayer is required to pay taxes on 85% of their SS wages and the average tax rate is 15%. So just reduce SS payment to about 87% of the original amount, skip any income tax from those wages and call it even. This simplifies the tax code and is a win.
Makes sense. The ironic thing about SS is that its longevity and viability rely on its regressive qualities. It could be eternally viable if we raised the income cap just a bit. But we need to all pretend that we have skin in the game so that it can’t be portrayed as another handout to black, sorry I mean poor, people.
Treating it as normal income tax-wise is, again ironically, among the remnants of progressive taxation in the US.
I agree that it makes little sense to treat an old-age safety net as an excess of income, but, after all, Elon Musk needs another pew pew spaceship.
Military pay is the same thing.
Military pay, Federal employee pay and federal contractors pay is similar but the difference is that pay is wages and in most cases is treated as such. Social security has a line of its own on the tax form and some rather complicated rules to determine the portion that is taxable. My preference would be to pay less and exempt it from income taxes. An alternative would be to pay the full amount and simply treat it like any other annuity, use the annunity line and taxing the full amount.
The idea (I think) with it being taxable income is if you're earning more than SS then SS adds to that total and can bump you up a bracket.
By keeping it taxable the government is incentivizing people to not collect until they're ready to completely exit the workforce.
I don't think it works particularly well at doing that - if you're poor you're not working an above-the-table second job while on SS and if you're rich you don't care about SS so its only people between those sets. The people who'd like to take it easy with some passive income but aren't ready to completely stop working and I don't see it stopping them from claiming SS, RVing half the year, working on-the-clock for the other half.
I do not see why taxing overtime is counterproductive.
Now, I'd be happy if they didn't tax mine, but taxes on it are the same as regular time. Maybe if you're on the edge of a bracket you might need to watch your overtime to not be pushed into the next higher? But that's not most people.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but the point of taxes is to make people have less money. Anyone who relies on tips for income is probably not somebody it is socially or ethically desirable to make poorer.
The problem is when evil corporations start calling all their income tips.
“I hate to beat a dead horse, but the point of taxes is to make people have less money.”
Y’all say what you want about Tony, but I find his honesty refreshing, even if that honesty is just plain evil.
Markets misallocate resources. It’s no reason to get your panties in a bunch.
What happens when the IRS calls tips income?
Then we can all applaud the IRS for knowing how to crack open a dictionary?
My take is the point of taxes is to buy votes for the next election by rewarding/punishing specific voter blocks.
Why would it be a problem though?
If they're at the lower socio-economic end they're not going to be net taxpayers even if their total income was taxed.
SS taxes? This is, I think, an easy solution - they're contractors. They can manage their own retirement, they can be trained to put the SS fraction into a 401k or similar and if they choose not to . . . fuck 'em.
If they're at the lower socio-economic end they're not going to be net taxpayers even if their total income was taxed.
False.
Its not false. Half the US are not net taxpayers.
But the half who are not net taxpayers are NOT the same as the bottom half of income earners. If you don't have dependents, you will be paying net federal taxes even on a very low income. I've pointed this out here many times.
evil corporations
The fact that Tony uses this unironically tells you everything you need to know about him.
Keep the tax on tips but just make enforcement a low priority. Consumer especially young consumers use credit cards for purchases and tips and so tracking tips should be relatively easy from the credit card records. The real hard tips to track are cash. Cash tips are likely going to low wage workers and I would simply write them off.
I tip in cash as much as possible. The IRS figures you receive 20% of your sales in tips, whether you make it or don't and withhold from your meager check on that basis. They have no way of knowing how much you receive in cash. so you can't be penalized for earning more. What Uncle Sam doesn't know can't hurt you. Which is why waitpeople don't want to go to a tipless economy.
Our rule of thumb used to be 10-15% of your sales. After you tip out the bar, food runners, bus boys, etc.
And all the dishwashers, line cooks, and busboys say, "Wrong line again."
But just the tips...
Speaking as a tax lawyer, exempting tips and overtime pay is madness. A waiter in a high-end restaurant earns $2.50 an hour in "wages" and $50.00 an hour in tips. A mechanic in an auto repair shop earns $52.50 an hour in wages. How is it equitable for the mechanic to pay taxes on $52.50 an hour, while the waiter pays taxes on only $2.50 an hour.
Excluding overtime pay presents the same problem, and provides opportunities to "game" the system. Assume you regularly work 60 hours per week. Your hourly wage is $30. So I pay you $1,200 for 40 hours at your regular hourly rate and $900 for 20 hours at 150% of your regular hourly rate. After overtime pay is excluded, I pay you a regular rate of $10 an hour and overtime at $85 an hour. For 60 hours, you earn the same $2,100, but pay taxes on only $400.
No deal. Both tips and overtime pay are compensation for services, and should be includible in gross income.
Prepare to hear a bunch of claptrap about "livable wages." On this libertarian site that calls itself "reason."
Why would people living be a priority of society, after all?
Someone in this thread said that the point of taxes is for people to have less money. Too bad that people need money to live, huh?
They need some money.
People don't need society to live. They use society to make living easier - because society offers mutual benefit exchange.
But that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed here is people thinking they're entitled to more than what they're actually worth.
What third world country are you a "tax lawyer" in? The minimum wage is $21 and hour, or just over $43,000 a year for a waiter. The recommended low-range tip "suggestion" in almost all restaurants is now starting at 18% of the bill. So the person who filled your water glass is going to make considerable income on tips if people just check the first box in the 3 box suggestion list. And that's at a mid-rage restaurant. Now that a steak in a decent restaurant starts at around $45 and can go as high as $125 (for the higher end restaurant), imagine a party of four anywhere in that range, now add appetizers and cocktails, and it's hard for a party of four to get out of a "mid range" restaurant for less than $200.
What's your point? Waitstaff also have to work the much less busy hours that are not the dinner rush, even though there are usually fewer of them on duty then. This brings down their per-hour average considerably.
What's your point? The kid working the counter at the printing shop gets $21 an hour and NO tips, no matter WHEN his shift is? Boo-fuckity-hoo they only get $50k a year because they worked a slow shift.
That particular minimum wage is just Seattle, you know that, right? At least, for the sake of people in Spokane I sure hope they didn't manage to impose that lunacy state wide...
What third world country are you a "tax lawyer" in? The minimum wage is $21 and hour, or just over $43,000 a year for a waiter.
I think that particular third world country would be "The United States of America", where the federal minimum wage is only $7.25 an hour.
What is this "overtime pay" I hear talk of? 😉
It's an incentive to hire illegal aliens.
So... speaking as someone who has a vested interest in keeping the status quo and/or increasing the complexity and depravity of the tax code. Got it.
First, the IRS doesn't as a rule go chasing after pennies, but they do pick them up when they see them. servers get audited when their boss is a crook and steals from the gov't[and probably them], the business gets audited and everyone in it gets audited.
Most of the concerns are already covered by the personal exemption.
>especially in Las Vegas. Casino hosts, doormen, bottle girls, strippers, and sex workers can make multiple six figures in tipped income and enjoy a high standard of living. So if you were class-warfare-minded, the unintended consequence of this is that it will make some already-rich people richer. (But I don't think we care about that—good for them!)
I think most people still would not consider bottle girls, strippers, and doormen to be 'rich' - we're ok here.
However, consider if we want to provide incentives for more women to enter into sex work. I know, I know, ENB reads this and she'll blow a fuse but consider that widespread sex work might actually not be a good thing?
Certainly, if it becomes more widespread, it will drive the price down.
("Heh heh. Heh heh. He said 'widespread' while talking about sex workers. Heh heh.")
sex workers can make multiple six figures in tipped income
What did the leper say to the prostitute?
Keep the tip.
Ugh. THAT is the leper's bell of the approaching looter fer shoor.
When a smaller gubmint taxes a larger one, THEN the power to tax is the power to destroy.