Surrogacy Is the New Battleground in Reproductive Freedom
Critics on both the left and the right decry surrogacy as exploitative, especially when carriers are compensated.

Evelyn and Will Clark met after college through mutual friends. Their shared sense of humor sparked a friendship that blossomed, and "it just felt meant to be, with no question that it was right and the timing was perfect for both of us," Evelyn recalled.
The Clarks were involved at their church, and they dreamed of raising a family together in the town where Will grew up and where they met. Everything was falling into place: After dating for less than a year, they got engaged, and four months later they were married. They found a home in a safe neighborhood with great schools, close to relatives.
Unbeknownst to the Clarks, the road to expanding their family would be a long and grueling one—a roller coaster of heartbreak, hope, and medical intervention. Realizing their dream would require the help of a series of specialists, plus a woman who started out as a perfect stranger.
Around four years into marriage, frustrated by her inability to conceive, Evelyn submitted to a battery of invasive and uncomfortable fertility tests. Sometimes it is relatively simple to treat fertility issues. But when it is not, the results of these tests can crush patients. Unfortunately, Evelyn's diagnosis revealed an issue impossible to fix. A brusque radiologist delivered the news that she had a congenital abnormality—a unicornuate, or partial, uterus.
Would she ever be able to have children, she wondered? It's possible, he replied, but perhaps "half" as many as your friends do. Then he laughed.
The sting of the doctor's joke remains fixed in her memory years later. In a follow-up conversation with her reproductive endocrinologist, the news got worse: Her uterine abnormality meant not only that becoming pregnant would be difficult, but that any given pregnancy had just a 28 percent likelihood of ending with a live baby. She was at higher risk of miscarriage and stillbirth, but also of ectopic pregnancy—a potentially lethal condition where an embryo implants outside of the uterus.
This unnerving possibility would stop many women from trying to conceive altogether. Yet even with the deck stacked against her, Evelyn was committed to finding a way. Although fertility treatment could not resolve the risks attendant to a partial uterus, it could increase Evelyn's chances of conceiving. "I'm not brave by nature," Evelyn ventures. But she was determined.
IVF Under the Microscope
A couple years ago, fertility treatments weren't on the public policy radar. The use and existence of reproductive technologies were largely taken for granted. That changed after the Supreme Court's Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision kicked off a wave of stricter abortion laws at the state level. The Supreme Court of Alabama ruled that embryos created through in vitro fertilization (IVF) were legally children, halting fertility treatment for some women in the state and catapulting the topic into the national spotlight.
Although Alabama's Legislature hurriedly passed legislation granting patients and medical providers immunity from prosecution, IVF became a live policy issue overnight. Pro-life commentators and research analysts quickly began to wade into the debate.
IVF joins human eggs and sperm in a lab and transfers the resulting embryo back to the patient in hopes of a successful pregnancy. It is the most effective way for patients to overcome a varied list of male and female fertility issues, from damaged fallopian tubes to low sperm motility, and it produces about 97,000 U.S. births annually.
Despite these benefits, critics have laid out an expansive list of concerns. These range from anxieties about separating procreation from the marital act to exaggerated worries about medical risks. But for pro-lifers, the leading fear is that doctors are discarding or indefinitely freezing unborn children. As then-Rep. Matt Rosendale (R–Mont.) put it, "If you believe that life begins at conception…there is no difference between an abortion and the destruction of an IVF embryo."
It is true that IVF sometimes creates extra embryos that are not transferred back to the patient. At the outset, patients and doctors don't know how many embryos will develop successfully (two-thirds of embryos' development arrests) or how many embryo transfers will be required to produce a live birth for an individual patient. Beginning the process with more embryos increases the likelihood of success.
Such critics downplay how much the creation of human life is an inefficient process, whether it happens inside or outside the body. Conventional conception results in significant embryo loss, and the body regularly and naturally discards embryos in the process of trying to create life. Research suggests around 70 percent of conventional human conceptions do not survive to live birth, which makes IVF more like conventional reproduction than IVF critics care to admit.
President Donald Trump says he does not subscribe to his right flank's more extreme views on this topic. Indeed, he promised during the campaign that the "government will pay" or "your insurance company will be required to pay" for all IVF treatment costs—proposals that pose their own problems, including high costs and unintended incentives for would-be parents to delay childbearing.
Yet despite Trump's embrace of reproductive technology, fertility treatment feels fraught today in a way that it didn't one year ago. IVF is a fresh target for activists emboldened by a major win on abortion. Since states will continue to set new abortion policy in the coming years, there will be many natural openings for policies that limit fertility treatments.
But when Evelyn began pursuing treatment several years ago, the political outlook was simpler. So instead of worrying about political complexities, she steadied herself and then launched headlong into a series of treatments with increasing levels of invasiveness, cost, and corresponding likelihood of success.
Fertility doctors often initially run patients through a course of intrauterine insemination, or IUIs, which have a low success rate of 5 percent to 15 percent. The thinking is that sometimes these procedures work, and the invasiveness of the process is so much lower than IVF that if it does work, patients have saved themselves some pain, time, and money.
But IUIs often don't work. If patients grow tired of disappointment after several rounds of treatment over multiple months, the next step is IVF, which has higher odds of success—25 percent to 50 percent per cycle for women 40 and under. After several failed rounds of IUI, Evelyn's doctor recommended IVF.
IVF is a complex, absorbing, and time-sensitive process, and it's taxing for the patient: daily injections and medications, regular appointments, reading consent forms, making decisions, and generally staying informed about a complex regimen.
Evelyn's years of fertility treatment were rewarded with two healthy babies—an incredible success. But that success wasn't without grave risk to her personally or to the babies themselves. Both pregnancies were high-risk, and in each pregnancy she developed gestational diabetes and hypertension. The latter can lead to a variety of complications, including preterm birth, poor fetal growth, and stillbirth.
With Evelyn's second pregnancy, the fetus's movement slowed so much in the third trimester that it required constant monitoring. At delivery, the baby's umbilical cord was triple wrapped around its neck; the girl was lucky to be alive.
Evelyn's doctor told her that, in light of her history, it was not safe for her to get pregnant and carry a baby again. Although she'd gambled twice, the odds were never in her favor and now looked much worse.
But the feeling that her family wasn't complete continued to nag at Evelyn. Being a mother, she felt, was her calling and purpose. After careful consideration, research, and discussion, Evelyn felt called to move forward with gestational surrogacy, by far the most common form of surrogacy today.
Surrogacy in the Courtroom
Surrogacy initially burst into the popular consciousness with the Baby M custody dispute of the late '80s. In that case, the genetic surrogate, Mary Beth Whitehead, initially relinquished her rights to the baby but then sensationally threatened the intended parents and kidnapped Baby M for nearly three months.
Following trial and appeal, the courts gave Baby M's intended parents custody, with Whitehead awarded visitation rights. In the end, the grown-up child legally terminated Whitehead's parental rights, stating that she loved and was happy with the intended parents who raised her.
Since then, reproductive technology has improved so much that modern-day surrogacy is categorically different from the technology at the center of the Baby M case. While Baby M was genetically related to the surrogate who carried her, gestational surrogacy, where the gestational carrier is not related to the child, is today's norm. In this type of surrogacy, IVF is used to produce embryos, usually using the intended parents' genetic material. This gives couples an opportunity to have genetically related children while bypassing obstacles that make it difficult or impossible to conceive.
Despite its value to these parents, gestational surrogacy has its own cadre of detractors. For critics on the political right, all the usual objections to IVF apply, with additional concerns besides. An article by Carmel Richardson in Compact hints that commercial surrogacy constitutes "baby selling," and characterizes the American approach to surrogacy as irresponsibly laissez faire. In First Things, Catholic University of America professor Michael Hanby criticized surrogacy as one component of "the conception machine" that must be resisted in a dystopian "brave new world."
Meanwhile, the conservative Heritage Foundation alleges that surrogacy harms women and children. Internationally, Pope Francis describes the practice as "deplorable" and "based on exploitation." Conservative critics have also implied that surrogate pregnancies are frequently terminated, referencing sensational reporting and defying all logic.
Although the political left has recently been more restrained on the topic, "exploitation" is a common refrain from liberal critics as well. Some critics argue that surrogacy "extend[s] the oppressive logic of the market to its farthest and final frontier." Prominent feminists such as Gloria Steinem vocally oppose commercial surrogacy on grounds that it is coercive for low-income women and poses serious risks, and feminist icon Margaret Atwood's popular book The Handmaid's Tale (and associated TV drama) depicts surrogacy as a nonconsensual nightmare.
Yet American surrogacy is nothing like the Brave New World of the right or The Handmaid's Tale of the left, and current research does not support critics' views. Instead, surrogacy is voluntary, gestational carriers are well-compensated to the tune of $30,000 to $60,000 personally, and the vast majority of carriers have their own legal representation during the process. Gestational carriers also report undergoing medical and psychological screenings, during which they are informed of the possible risks.
Gestational carriers typically have positive long-term psychological outcomes—and although pregnancy and fertility treatment are not risk-free, medical outcomes for gestational carriers resemble outcomes for the general population of women using IVF. Children resulting from surrogacy generally do well from a psychological and medical perspective.
If surrogates feel exploited by the process, the research doesn't show that. Instead, gestational carriers often experience a sense of self-worth and achievement following the process; there is little evidence of postsurrogacy regret, and many surrogates would consider carrying again. A long-term study that followed gestational and genetic surrogates in the U.K. found that no surrogates expressed regret about their involvement in surrogacy 10 years after the birth of a child. A separate survey showed 83 percent of gestational carriers in California said they would consider becoming a gestational carrier again.
The Clarks' own experience with surrogacy is a far cry from the cynically transactional picture painted by critics. Following the completion of another IVF cycle, Evelyn's clinic matched her with the person she calls her "angel on earth," Sarah Schneider. (All the names of the families are pseudonyms.) In a phone call, Evelyn's nurse noted Sarah's "pure intentions"—interviews, research, and nonscientific surveys find that gestational carriers are commonly motivated by altruism—and the nurse provided Evelyn with Sarah's email address so she could reach out for an initial conversation.
Following an introductory call where the women shared their histories and hopes for the future, and following a dinner date that included Evelyn, Will, Sarah, and Sarah's husband, the Clarks and Schneiders decided it made sense to move forward. "We felt like old friends and honestly everything just felt right," Sarah says. That's when the start of the many legal, medical, psychological, and insurance hurdles began.
While gestational surrogacy can be miraculous, it is by no means easy. IVF is complex, and gestational surrogacy increases the complexity by leaps and bounds, as it adds an entirely new set of legal, financial, medical, and psychological requirements for both intended parents and gestational carrier.
If IVF feels like a part-time job, navigating gestational surrogacy is like a full-time one. The requirements for the Clarks and Schneiders included individual psychological assessments, as well as group counseling, where they ran through every possible scenario, including how they would feel if Sarah lost the baby during pregnancy or delivery.
The legal process was similarly structured to cover every possible contingency. The Clarks paid for the Schneiders to have their own counsel, which is common. Then, together and separately, the couples considered potentially thorny hypotheticals, including how many embryos Sarah was willing to transfer and under what circumstance all parties would be unwilling or willing to terminate the pregnancy. (For such meticulously planned and desperately hoped-for pregnancies, this scenario is vanishingly rare.)
Alongside these sensitive questions, the Clarks and Schneiders worked through financial questions about compensation in case of bed rest, compensation for house cleaning, and even compensation for major medical issues, should these needs result from pregnancy or delivery. Intended parents also typically cover the cost of agency fees, legal fees, IVF, health insurance, and other miscellaneous expenses related to the pregnancy (clothing, travel, lodging, and more), and it is these costs that lead to the eye-popping "all-in" cost for intended parents of $100,000 to $225,000.
Despite the enormous financial cost, and although the Clarks covered what economists call the "opportunity cost" of Sarah's time and the risks she was voluntarily taking, they knew that what Sarah gave them was a gift. And although money would change hands in the process, it would not change the moral case for their joint project. As Evelyn put it, "You know, the compensation was such a small part of it. After we signed the contracts, we never spoke of it again."
Baby Bobbie
Although compensation was not a central focal point for the Clarks and Schneiders, compensation is a major sticking point for critics of surrogacy in the U.S. and elsewhere. Various countries—including the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand—have made compensated surrogacy illegal while allowing uncompensated surrogacy.
In the U.S., most surrogacy is compensated, and gestational carriers and intended parents are both made better off under voluntary compensated surrogacy arrangements. In a curious paradox, critics characterize surrogacy as "exploitative" but are eager to outlaw the payments that cover gestational surrogates' time, efforts, and voluntarily taken risks, even though outlawing payment would make gestational carriers objectively worse off.
Outspoken antisurrogacy advocates, such as Jennifer Lahl, think compensating surrogates is harmful and should be illegal in the U.S. and around the world. Lahl founded The Center for Bioethics and Culture Network and is part of an international campaign to ban commercial surrogacy, though she maintains that ultimately all types of surrogacy—compensated or not—are unethical.
Lahl sees parallels between surrogacy and organ donation, where policy prohibits compensation for organ donors, and she believes organ donation policy provides useful insights for third-party reproduction. She has written that "organ donation should be motivated by the desire to freely give a gift—not by the lure of financial incentives," and she feels it would be best if gestational surrogacy followed suit.
If compensation were forbidden, surrogacy would endure the same fate as kidney transplants, where shortages and delays abound. This may be what Lahl wants, but it is hard to imagine a worse model: Because of existing laws prohibiting compensation, 100,000 Americans languish on kidney transplant waiting lists, and 4,000 Americans die annually as they wait for a kidney, despite nearly everyone having a kidney they could donate.
Prohibiting compensated surrogacy would be similarly tragic, forcing intended parents to endure agonizing and futile waits, pushing intended parents to look for surrogacy services in riskier contexts, and leaving many couples ultimately unsuccessful at expanding their families. Thousands fewer babies would be born in the U.S. annually.
Compensation helps efficiently allocate resources, provides incentives for participation, effectively signals a need, and ensures participants are treated fairly. These benefits are most important when human life is on the line.
Fortunately, the Clarks were not living under Lahl and other critics' policy prescriptions. Evelyn had two embryos left for transfer—the Clarks' last hope. They agreed to transfer both at once, and one took.
As the pregnancy progressed, Sarah messaged Evelyn several times daily to ease her nerves by letting her know that the baby was moving and wiggly. The "gratitude overrode the anxiety because I was so grateful for every month and every milestone," says Evelyn. Evelyn had full trust in Sarah, and Evelyn, Will, Sarah, and Sarah's husband attended each of the many fertility and prenatal appointments together—two grown men and two women huddled close in each small exam room.
The families lived three hours apart, so attending all those appointments together was a logistical feat. Toward the end of the pregnancy, the Schneiders began driving to doctor's appointments in the city where the Clarks lived and she would deliver. Sarah moved in with her sister for the last 10 days of the pregnancy to be closer to the hospital.
Last August,Baby Bobbie arrived perfect and healthy at 38.5 weeks and 7 pounds, 8 ounces. Before delivery, Sarah told Evelyn she couldn't wait to see her face the first time Evelyn held him. As Evelyn described it, when Bobbie arrived, the two women looked at each other as though to say, "We did it. He's here."
"The delivery itself couldn't have been more perfect," Sarah says. "He came pretty fast and it was so surreal and special and spiritual and just honestly so beautiful."
It's been a decade since the Clarks first set out to expand their family, and today they have three rosy-cheeked children to show for it. "I spent 10 years trying to get my babies here," Evelyn recalls, tucked into a recliner with her baby snuggled close in her living room. "But I felt led and supported by God the entire way. And Sarah felt supported by God the same as I did."
It is hard to imagine anyone taking issue with the family that Evelyn and Will created with the help of a generous stranger. It might be an unusual story for two families to be knit together this way, but that doesn't make it less heartfelt.
The Schneiders have returned to their former lives, but the two families stay connected through calls, texts, and pictures. In September, they joined the Clarks for Bobbie's baby blessing, a special religious rite of passage held in the Clarks' backyard. The happy family of five was surrounded by the people closest and most important to them—a group that now includes Sarah and her family.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Love, Money, and Surrogacy."
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
A Rhetoric teacher would laugh at your poor writing. You give away your view in the very title. So it's 'Freedom" , no need to read further. Dumb woman
What the heck is wrong with a title describing the article? You like mysteries?
You don't like freedom? You're not a libertarian.
Says "American surrogacy is nothing like the Brave New World of the right or The Handmaid's Tale of the left" and then proceeds to use the term "gestational carriers".
LOL. Well, it doesn't disprove any of her arguments. But it definitely doesn't make them stronger.
Right. It's nothing like Brave New World or The Handmaid's Tale... yet.
"My eyes are up here," she said to the couple ravenously staring at her womb.
Ah, the voice of Christian National Socialist Lebensborn brainwashing in the person of the Sockpuppet from Hitler's Reich.
Sorry Hank, but the National Socialists were neopagan goat worshippers and YouTube atheists like you.
What is the market price for a woman's reproductive organs these days, LIB? It's totally cool to assign monetary value to that, right? Don't treat them as human beings, just as commodities that can be bought and sold, yes?
Kinda like hookers. They're not really people. They're just the net value of their sexual functionality, right? An object to be used and discarded as the means to an end, correct?
Come on, you can defend all this on the merits, can't you? You don't have to immediately run to the far-left position of "everyone who disagrees with me is a nazi," right? You're supporting these brood mares and breeding stock. Make the argument as to why women are worth nothing but their reproductive organs. This is YOUR position. Defend it.
The proper term is "axolotl tank".
Paying a woman for sex isn’t exploitation, but paying to carry a baby is?
Making a down payment on an Axlotl Tank, just like any other business transaction.
It's an decent article. Good job laying out the basics of how this works for people who might not know.
Having been through multiple rounds of IVF and infertility diagnosis for myself and my wife and finally finding ourselves in the world of surrogacy ourselves I think it's a good thing articles like this are out there. Truth be told, I don't really think most people should need to know about the nitty gritty details of surrogacy, but if there's going to be some kind of push for national womb-police then ignorance is going to serve nobody. Surrogacy is the absolute worst way to make a baby, bar none. But for some people, like me, it's the only option left. I'm really glad that medical science has allowed myself, my wife, my surrogate, and our doctors to overcome death and disease and bodily malfunction.
Good for you. We need more babies particularly the ones with parents that want them.
Maybe it wasn't meant to be an option, ND. And I don't say that callously or without empathy for your situation. But we're dealt the cards we're dealt. I'll never be able to dunk on Lebron or outrun Usain - it just is what it is. And if I found some way around it, bionics maybe - would it really be a win?
I mean, play your cards as best you can - and even draw new ones when you can. But when you start stacking the deck, damn the consequences so long as you win, you don't see that as ethically problematic?
None of should ever use tools again.
If God gave us the brains to develop surrogacy, who are you to say we should not do so?
God gave you the ability to stick your dick in a pencil sharpener if that's what you want.
But you don't do it, do you.
It's not about "tools." It's about hubris.
Can’t speak for everyone, but my dick won’t fit in a pencil sharpener.
SGT's does.
you don't see that as ethically problematic?
I do not.
And neither does my wife, nor does my surrogate, nor do any of our doctors, and those are the only opinions that matter.
What if you all decided to just rape a woman and then keep her as a hostage until she bore child. Would your mutually-agreeable positions matter then?
Or do ad populum opinions not actually matter?
What the fuck is wrong with you? Everyone in n00bdragon's situation are consenting adults.
Well, as the article stated, there's two problems. 1) IVF often kills ("discards") tiny humans once the "parents" get what they want. 2) Surrogacy isn't necessarily consenting, especially when coercion by circumstance comes into play - which is bound to happen when we're talking about high-value womb rentals.
Now, I'm not trying to trash on ND or his situation - just saying that the solution we're talking about is ethically problematic. Doesn't really matter if everyone in it is "consenting adults." The embryonic humans, and possibly the surrogate as well, are not.
1) As also stated in the article, natural conception in healthy adults involves a positively gruesome amount of attrition and the nature of working with people who already have difficulty conceiving means that a certain amount of practicality is often chosen. When you go through IVF, you can do it however you want. I don't think anyone who hasn't been through that is in a position to pass judgement on those who have. To give you some small insight into my own perceptions on it, even if you made it 100% illegal to discard an embryo I wouldn't change a thing in how we did what we did. You should give IVF parents some credit here. It's a generalization, sure, but for the most part anyone willing to go through that hell cares deeply not just for their children but their potential children too. They care about them a lot more than anti-abortion LARPers do. Most of them want to give the best chance of survival to as many as they can.
2) Surrogacy is always consenting. This is AA grade certified Extra Large nonsense you're spouting here. Saying it is coerced because there is money involved is ridiculous. It's ridiculous precisely because there is money involved. If compensation were prohibited, you'd be right to ask why people would offer to undergo that and what hidden coercions were being used to compel them. Altruism sounds like a great standard, but when everything is above board, only then can we can be certain that coercion had no part in it.
2.5) Embryos don't get to consent to being born either. This smacks of anti-natalism, an ideology so repugnant I don't even want to dive into refuting it.
I don't think anyone who hasn't been through that is in a position to pass judgement on those who have.
I've never raped someone nor been a rape victim, but as a human being I have all the authority I'll ever need to pass judgment on the subject.
First-hand experience is not a pre-requisite for determining ethicality. Heck, it's not even a pre-requisite for understanding something in general.
I've never been to outer space. I have zero astronaut training whatsoever. But I understand what space is, and I understand its effect on the human body - therefore I can know, without ever going or firsthand experiencing, and conclude with 100% certainty that if I'm ever IN outer space, I should not take off my space helmet and expose myself to the vacuum of space.
Abstraction. It's what makes us different from all the lesser creatures.
Hell, if I don't like the color shirt you're wearing, I'm 100% within my right to pass judgment over it - and you - for it. Don't give me that "you have no right to judge until you've been in their shoes" tripe. We all literally do it all day every day.
It's a generalization, sure, but for the most part anyone willing to go through that hell cares deeply not just for their children but their potential children too.
Did you intentionally discard any embryos (or allow for it) after realizing a successful pregnancy? If you implanted every single one and let the body accept/reject as it does, that's one thing. If you hedged your bets, ultimately picking one child over another, that's another.
Saying it is coerced because there is money involved is ridiculous. It's ridiculous precisely because there is money involved.
If you said to the surrogate(s), "You will not get a single penny for this, nor any assistance whatsoever during the pregnancy, and upon successful delivery, you will immediately turn the child over and never see it again," how many do you think would go through the process?
See, it's not natural to chose this. Surrogates need to be talked into it, one way or another. Throwing money at them is obviously the easiest approach. You can make it less harsh by promising comforts and care and more money and a relationship with the child and more money and even more money and blah blah blah - but ultimately, this isn't a choice they're making out of the goodness of their heart. When someone rents out their womb, they're doing it with an expectation of something in return.
That's all well and good - mutual benefit exchange - but the reality is that most people wouldn't do this unless their circumstances compelled it. It's like hooking or stripping or shooting porn. Nobody grows up with that as a career goal. They're usually left with little option but.
aka Coercion by Circumstance.
Embryos don't get to consent to being born either.
Have you ever met one that objected to it anytime before their adolescence? Heck, even the full-on retards love their existence. (Down's Syndrome kids are, in particular, some of the happiest children you'll ever meet - and if you've never had the joy, I highly recommend doing some volunteering with them. It'll change your life in all ways positive.)
But if you pointed a gun at their heads, they'd probably beg for their life - as would most humans. We WANT our existence, ND. Those who don't - they have personal control over it. It's a whole other thing to make that assumption for them, and then take actions on their "behalf."
If it isn't problematic to the people involved it is not problematic. Insinuating yourself or your god into someone else's life is unethical, creepy as hell, and selfish. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe in, but an embryo is not a person. If it is, maybe they should just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps (flipperstraps?) and go get a fucking job.
If it isn't problematic to the people involved it is not problematic.
"The underage pre-pubescent tweens SAID they wanted to be in my home movie!" he said.
Shut up dude. There's plenty of stuff we put the kibosh on - and rightly so - regardless of whether the participants think (or even know) it's problematic.
It's no different than transing your toddler or smothering your demented grandmother with a pillow. Vegan cats dude. We all know who's actually making the decisions.
Insinuating yourself or your god into someone else's life is unethical, creepy as hell, and selfish. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe in, but an embryo is not a person.
"An embryo is not a person," he said, insinuating himself or his god into someone else's life.
Ad populum is a famously fallacious argument. There were lots of people who felt that slavery was fine. It never was. The only opinions that matter are the opinions of the people involved in the situation. Your opinion DOES NOT matter to them. It will never matter to them. Libertarianism teaches us that we are all imbued with freedoms which cannot be abrogated by the government. Learn more about it at the Ayn Rand Institute.
The only opinions that matter are the opinions of the people involved in the situation.
lmao. No, those opinions especially don't matter. Because they're actively in the process of rationalizing.
Libertarianism teaches us that we are all imbued with freedoms which cannot be abrogated by the government.
Can they be abrogated by other humans?
You won't win this argument with a first-reading of Atlas or Fountainhead, f7. I've probably read them both more times than you've had years alive on this planet. I know Rand's argument. I also know where she went off the rails.
And, hilariously, I also know precisely what she thought you losertarians.
"Objectivists without teeth," I think was the term.
"Libertarianism teaches us that we are all imbued with freedoms which cannot be abrogated by the government."
None of those include doing direct harm to other human beings.
So you're opposed to self-defense?
"I don't say that callously or without empathy for your situation. But we're dealt the cards we're dealt."
Yes you do.
It's nice to watch the "pro-life" crowd tacitly admit that it was never about "life". It was always, ALWAYS about controlling the lives of strangers. This is the creepiest political movement ever.
I've never claimed to be pro-life. In fact, I actively dispute the use of that term (along with its companion "pro-choice.")
I'm anti-abortion. I make no bones about it. Don't kill tiny vulnerable humans. The f is wrong with you if you want to. Fight me.
Along those lines; there is nor can be, definitively, an individual right to reproduction. Not even for fully functional human beings. The process takes two people to initiate and is completed by 3. Even in the far-flung future, it's still generally going to take a lab full of people and the supply chains to support it to achieve the goal for an individual 'parent'.
If one state wants to say, "We want to protect (our) women from becoming breeding tanks." and the next state wants to say "As long as we get 5% of the cut, have at it." and the next state over wants to say "Only licensed surrogates as determined by the county." I'm down with that. If you're infertile and can't make it out of the county to the next state over or afford a 5% fertility tax or whatever, sorry about your fertility issues but, yeah, you probably shouldn't be using a hammer or other sharp objects either.
Such critics downplay how much the creation of human life is an inefficient process, whether it happens inside or outside the body.
And?
Who cares about how inefficient the natural way is?
By this logic, all human life is worthless unless replaced by technology.
Who cares about how inefficient the natural way is?
She's got a trite little narrative that she has to cling to and she's sticking to it. Sure, the studies showing ~70% of conceptions don't produce a birth look at the maternal response and not the actual presence of a fertilized egg/embryo. And sure, to do so they turn the detection methods up to the point that false positives would prevent it from being used more broadly (Just run 45 cycles of PCR and declare them dead *of* COVID!). And, to your point, sure, you're really saying that the ~50% of people who die from diabetes complications are just an inefficiency to the other 50% who don't. The important thing is, we're talking about paying for gestational carriers here.
The argument is the same as seeing how many people die of natural or accidental causes and concluding there should be no ethical dilemma in killing deliberately, as it is all the same in the end. It was a dumb argument when Ron Bailey made it 20 years ago and it has improved.
I don't see an ethical difference between having unprotected sex in hope of making a baby, knowing that most of the fertilized eggs will not progress to a baby, and fertilizing the eggs outside the body, knowing that most will not result in a baby. Mammalian reproduction is fraught with failures regardless of the technique.
It is the difference between a person dying from being hit on the head by a rock, and you hitting them on the head with a rock. The former is chance, the latter is a deliberate choice. It is a utilitarian choice that objectifies human life.
Nonsense.
Such a well-reasoned comeback.
Silliness doesn't deserve a serious reply.
Far more than your 'argument' deserves.
My reading says it's OK to hit him in the head with a rock. It's no more or less of a moral question than trying and failing to impregnate your wife/girlfriend.
Moral equivalency is a double-edged sword that the retarded moral relativists/nihilists don't generally seem to grasp.
Wait, we're *pro-,surrogacy* now? I thought we *didn't* want The Handmaid's Tale?
It's OK if we bribe the handmaids.
Conventional conception results in significant embryo loss, and the body regularly and naturally discards embryos in the process of trying to create life.
This is incomparable to IVF.
A human being has the right to exist from conception until natural death. Embryo loss in utero is natural death. We may not celebrate it with a funeral, we may not recognize it as meaningful, we may not even know it happens - but it is a natural death. Destruction of embryos is an intentional death, one done with callous indifference, I might add. We know precisely what we're doing when we do it.
You would have a rock solid argument for IVF if not for the bet-hedging it employs, trying to "increase the odds" of the woman beginning pregnancy. If you did things one at a time, crossed your fingers, said your prayers, and hoped for the best - there would be no counterargument. It would also be more costly, time-consuming and invasive for the mother-in-wait, for those who want to pretend that's relevant.
It's akin to going to an orphanage, hoping one of the kids takes a shine to you, and then burning the place down with everyone in it once you got what you wanted.
Not cool.
In this type of surrogacy, IVF is used to produce embryos, usually using the intended parents' genetic material.
The one upside to surrogacy is that it's proof positive that said embryo is a distinct and unique being than either its parents or surrogate. You HAVE to admit this truth to even discuss the subject.
Internationally, Pope Francis describes the practice as "deplorable" and "based on exploitation."
He's kinda right. It's really one of those "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" issues. Even if you ignore the subject of IVF as it applies completely, it still kinda goes up in the same column as polygamy, no-fault divorce, and medieval heir-siring (concerned less with a desire to raise children, and more with lengthening a dynasty). That is to say - it's not intended for the benefit of the child for the child's sake. It's for the sake of the parents. There's a degree of objectification to it all.
And the reason it has a tendnency to lead to regret and a sense of loss (and custody battles) is simply a response to us bucking the, pardon the term, natural order of things. Far be it from me to speak for the Pope, but I'd posit he'd say something along the lines of "we're not designed this way."
I don't mean that in a religious way, just in the same way homosexuality is defying the natural order. A bolt only works with a nut. Banging two of either together, no matter how hard you try, won't accomplish anything for whatever you're trying to assemble. It's like eating rocks. You may be physically capable of doing it, but they're not meant to be eaten and no good will come of doing so.
And on the subject of exploitation - the thing you have to keep in mind is a perspective outside the overly decadent and entitled American first-world bubble. I'm talking about this: "If surrogates feel exploited by the process, the research doesn't show that." Yea, it might not seem exploitative in OUR society, where "carriers are well-compensated" by parents who have a vested and genuine interest in the health and risks of the surrogate - but, like prostitution and the drug trade, once you leave America it gets a whole lot dirtier.
And even IN America, especially with the gays (who, oddly, only ever seem to want boys), it's highly exploitative. A means to an end for something far more deluded, if not nefarious. If nothing else, we can all agree that at least THAT should be 100% outlawed, right?
The legal process was similarly structured to cover every possible contingency.
"The more the plans fail, the more the planners plan" - amirite?
(Also: "Man plans, God laughs.")
If compensation were forbidden, surrogacy would endure the same fate as kidney transplants, where shortages and delays abound.
That's only because the government is involved. Bureaucrats gon' bureaucrat.
Because of existing laws prohibiting compensation, 100,000 Americans languish on kidney transplant waiting lists, and 4,000 Americans die annually as they wait for a kidney, despite nearly everyone having a kidney they could donate.
There's something very... dark... about the way you phrased that. "Hey pal, you don't really need two kidneys." Again, natural order. We have two for a reason (in the case of kidneys, it's a balancing/backup system). The fact that we CAN go without one doesn't mean we SHOULD go without one - and certainly not put under any pressure to sacrifice one.
Which, unfortunately, is what financial compensation does there. You may wave it off, but it has a coercive - if only coercive by circumstance - effect. Same problem legal prostitution has. No matter how you try and paint it, that reality invariably kicks it into the realm of trafficking.
"But I felt led and supported by God the entire way. And Sarah felt supported by God the same as I did."
Pretty sure they were talking to the other guy, but so long as they got what they wanted, right? Faustian bargains never turn out bad.
"A human being has the right to exist from conception until natural death." No. A 1 day old fertilized embryo has zero "right to exist".
"Destruction of embryos is an intentional death, one done with callous indifference, I might add. We know precisely what we're doing when we do it."
This isn't your problem.
"And even IN America, especially with the gays (who, oddly, only ever seem to want boys), it's highly exploitative. A means to an end for something far more deluded, if not nefarious. If nothing else, we can all agree that at least THAT should be 100% outlawed, right?"
What? Number one, this is not true. Number two, America doesn't outlaw things just because AT thinks something is "exploitative".
For more information about libertarianism, the political belief system that underpins this website, check out the Ayn Rand Institute.
No. A 1 day old fertilized embryo has zero "right to exist".
Why not?
This isn't your problem.
Neither is the murder of a total stranger. Yet, we all understand the problem with that, don't we.
Number one, this is not true.
Yes it is.
Number two, America doesn't outlaw things just because AT thinks something is "exploitative".
I didn't say we outlaw things because of what I think. I said that it should be obvious to anyone that NOT serving up the most vulnerable population to predators is something we can all easily get behind.
Apparently I was wrong. Or perhaps there's just something very wrong with you.
A woman's body, a woman's choice, except when it's not?
(and why did that "involved in her church' woman ignore God's will as expressed in her body?)
When the argument against commercial surrogacy is stripped to its essentials, it's just that there are people who are revolted by a world in which people are paid for anything important. They'd much rather people give freely of their important goods and services, because such a world is nicer in these critics' imaginations. You don't see as much objection for other elements of free enterprise just because they're traditional...familiar...commonplace. Something new is easier to organize opposition to.
Opposition to non-commercial surrogacy exists partly out of fear that it will become commercial, partly out of experience that adopted children don't have it as good as "real" children (and the perfect's being the enemy of the good), and partly out of the unfounded belief that various non-sentient living entities nonetheless "want" to live, based on their membership in a species where the sentient ones mostly do.
There is a lot of altruist conditioning that is both background and baggage. As I child, nuns of Hitler's faith urged me to feel terror of some and adoration of other invisible hobgoblins completely undetectable by the four forces of nature. Small wonder mental illness is so widespread and endemic in mystically-burdened tribes. Yet communist and mystical collectives alike cling to voodoo traditions. Both use them as justification for coercion and violence in the 21st Century.
"Why in the world would a surrogate be needed? It's a 'baby' already! And the 'baby' is entitled to a Woman's body.", Pro-Life.
No need to pay anyone. Just have the Pro-Life State owned incubators surrogate the 'baby' by State mandate. Can't have Women out killing 'babies'!!!! /s
"tHe cAtHoLiC cHurCh rEwriTeS tHe diCtiONaRY"
The Catholic Church is one of the creepiest institutions on Earth.
It's the last functioning institution of the Roman Empire. It's the anachronism of it that makes it so creepy.
Obviously the libertarian position is that the government should stay out of this.
Except there have been numerous instances where the government has been asked to get involved in these matters due to disputes between the parties involved. Like a surrogate claiming to be child's parent and attempting renege on the agreement. Negligence on the part of the clinics in destroying a couple's stored embryos. The government has to come up with policy to resolve these matters because it is going to be asked to.
The "government should stay out of this" is a childish suggestion by someone who does not want to think about how to resolve these issues.
"MORE government please!", Pro-Life Mickey Rat.
Libertarianism is frequently accused of childishness. I think that's because many people secretly long for there to be Grown Ups in the world who can kiss our booboos and stop our conflicts. Liberty means being the grown up.
There are already laws to address most of the concerns. The relationship between the surrogate and the parents is contractual and can be address through existing contractual law. The story is about IVF surrogates with no real claim to a biological connection to the child, so the relationship is contractual. There is no obligation on the government here but rather on the parties to ensure that the contracts are thorough in address issues that might arise.
The problem is that government interferes with contracts the judge or legislator considers yucky.
While both the left and the right have their books to look to both sides should maybe reread, or maybe just read the books. In Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, the babies are made and raised by the government. That is significantly different that the case for IVF and IVF surrogates. These IVF children will be raised by parents who will in all likelihood treat them like they would a child conceived in the natural way. Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid Tale pictures a brutal authoritarian world. While the handmaids are the focus it doesn't seem a nice place for anyone not in the power structure. The children in this story are conceived by rape not by IVF. In a truly free society with a birthrate problem, fertile woman would have a valuable service to sell and handles well they would be compensated generously.
In a truly free society with a birthrate problem, fertile woman would have a valuable service to sell and handles well they would be compensated generously.
Stop calling them "women." You clearly only care about their uterine production capability.
For an interesting flip-side to this notion, I also recommend reading Y: The Last Man.