Supreme Court To Hear TikTok Ban Case
The ban violates the First and Fifth Amendments. Strike it down.

The Supreme Court has granted TikTok's request for a hearing on the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications (PAFACA) Act. The act bans TikTok in American markets unless the app's owner, ByteDance (which is 1 percent owned by the Chinese government), divests from the app by January 19. The Supreme Court will hear the case on January 10 to determine whether PAFACA serves a national interest compelling enough that it merits undermining the First and Fifth Amendments.
PAFACA was signed into law on April 24 to address concerns that ByteDance was illegally accessing American users' data. TikTok challenged the law in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit two weeks later.
TikTok's complaint comprises four major challenges to the law: First, it alleges that PAFACA violates the First Amendment by imposing "content- and viewpoint-based restriction[s] on protected speech." This claim is supported, at least in part, by a report from the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which stated that TikTok "can be used" by adversaries to "push misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda on the American public." Although the Court of Appeals acknowledged that TikTok has standing under the First Amendment, Senior Judge Douglas Ginsburg held in his opinion that the law "survive[s] constitutional scrutiny."
Second, TikTok claims the law is an unconstitutional bill of attainder, defined as "legislative punishment, of any form or severity, of specifically designated persons or groups," as established in United States v. Brown (1965). Third, TikTok says the law singles out the company, and thus violates the Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause, by automatically labeling any app run by ByteDance as a foreign adversary-controlled application. Apps run by other companies, such as the Chinese messaging app WeChat, are only so defined after the president has determined the firm to be a significant threat to U.S. security.
Finally, TikTok alleges that the law violates the Fifth Amendment's Takings Clause, which holds that private property cannot be "taken for public use, without just compensation." However, Ginsburg concluded that "TikTok has not been subjected to a complete deprivation of economic value" because TikTok can sell its codebase, user base, brand value, goodwill, and property. Though forcing a sale is nominally better than seizing TikTok's assets without payment, the mandatory divestiture still constitutes a substantive violation of property rights.
Jennifer Huddleston, senior fellow in technology policy at the Cato Institute, tells Reason that legislators' primary national security concern pertains to the Chinese Communist Party's ability to invoke the Chinese National Security Law to circuitously acquire American TikTok user data through its "special management share" of ByteDance. If there is a genuine national security threat that is exacerbated by Americans' use of TikTok, then legislators have a responsibility to clarify precisely what this is instead of vaguely gesturing to "an active national security threat," as Joe Lancaster has argued in Reason.
Huddleston says the law to ban TikTok wasn't just solely driven by concerns over American data privacy, but also by worries about Chinese propaganda. But one man's—or country's—propaganda can just as easily be an American citizen's protected political speech.
The Supreme Court may soon decide the fate of TikTok. Though banning the app could be politically expedient in the short term, it would come at the cost of weakening the First and Fifth Amendments for all Americans.
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I think the author here has it wrong on the Free Speech and Takings Clause arguments but that the Bill of Attainder challenge is plausible.
Why not Free Speech? That argument is based on the speech rights of the US user base. But a change of corporate ownership (even if compelled) does not implicate their rights. US users can still speak (or not) as they like. It's no different than any conventional anti-trust complaint against a newspaper or TV broadcaster.
Why not Takings? The argument there is that the current owners will lose money by being forced to sell of the US operations. But they are only out the difference between the current value and what they actually get in the sale. What they get in the sale will be a concrete value. Unfortunately, the current value is pretty much unknowable making the value of the taking highly speculative. A "taking" has to pretty much destroy the value of the asset. There are many, many precedents that a mere reduction of the value does not qualify as a taking. (If you want to overturn those precedents, remember that you would effectively be making every OSHA regulation, etc into a taking. It would cripple government. A strict libertarian might view that as a good thing but I doubt even one of the Justices would agree with us.)
That should say "... a prohibitable 'taking' has to pretty much destroy ..."
Anyone who thinks this is a free speech cse is a retard. It's a case about allowing a foreign adversary to operate in the us
""It's a case about allowing a foreign adversary to operate in the us""
Which we already do.
We are helping China build their military via our consumerism. Our military is reliant on Chinese parts. Why should I care about TikToc? It's not like China needs a social media platform to hack into our infrastructure.
Disagree on 1st Amendment. If SCOTUS take the view that this law is an unconstitutional licensing act determining who can opperate a printing press, than a 1A challenge may succeed. Counterpoint would be the FCC, licensing of the nation's airwaves. But the law applies to all and is limited to the "airwaves".
Now let's imagine that nefarious people and nations actually exist. And that they are happy and even eager to exploit various aspects of free societies with ultimate goals of subverting those societies.
Now what?
It seems to me that if TikTok does things that it would be illegal for our Federal Government to do to American people (though our Federal Government does it anyway), then it should probably be illegal for the Chinese Government to do too.
If TikTok was a one way broadcast device, the Chinese government could say whatever the hell it wanted to say. But if what gets done would be illegal spying by the NSA, then it's illegal spying by ByteDance as well.
If you want to argue that banning TikTok is a violation of the 1st and 5th amendment, I'd argue that not doing so is a violation of the 4th amendment. And if you want to argue that these amendments only apply to the American government, I'm pretty sure the guys who wrote them would disagree with you.
It seems to me that if TikTok does things that it would be illegal for our Federal Government to do to American people (though our Federal Government does it anyway), then it should probably be illegal for the Chinese Government to do too...And if you want to argue that these amendments only apply to the American government, I'm pretty sure the guys who wrote them would disagree with you.
I disagree with you that the founders would disagree with me for disagreeing with you. The founders protected citizens from the government they were creating, so we could not be victimized by that government. They did not guarantee a right to privacy from foreign nations nor citizens because they were powerless to do so and likely because they realized those entities were powerless to prosecute a US citizen.
They also didn't empower any branch of of government to protect our privacy from foreign powers.
They did create a power for securing national security, but I fail to see how anything on a citizen's phone would contain a national security threat. It's a free speech infringement.
Wrote Jefferson in 1790: “The transaction of business with foreign nations is executive altogether. It belongs, then, to the head of that department, except as to such portions of it as are specially submitted to the Senate. Exceptions are to be construed strictly.”
Of course "business" here is in reference to state business, not commercial enterprise. And was in reference specifically about the new French Republic seeking an exequatur from the Senate instead of the president.
So what does this quote have to do with this case?
Also Federalist 11. The founding fathers intended for trade with foreign nations to be uniform amongst the states, ie federal powers.
Yes, the federal government has the power to control international trade. What does that have to do with the foreign privacy issue that shadydave brought up and I responded to?
Using a power of trade to ban a communication app for individual citizens that have no transaction with the app's parent company is equivalent to using the statist logic that allows the commerce clause to rationalize, well, everything. To quote justice Thomas, "if Congress can regulate this under the [Foriegn] Commerce Clause, then it can regulate anything—and the Federal Government is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers."
What does that have to do with the foreign privacy issue that shadydave brought up and I responded to?
Nothing. This is Jesse, remember?
If this were a domestic company, it would clearly be unconstitutional.
To force a divestiture? On what grounds? Divestitures are common requirements in anti-trust actions.
If memory serves, there are a couple precedents even of traditional broadcast companies being foced to divest assets.
This is not an antitrust case. It's not a case at all. It's a law targeting a company for divestiture. Is there precedent for that? Otherwise you just rationalized an unlimited power for a federally planned economy.
As I said above, the Bill of Attainder clause is plausible even though it seems to be getting the least amount of traction in the media and comments.
To your broader point, I agree that a federally planned economy would be a Bad Thing(tm) but what constitutional clause specifically prevents it? And more, how do you reconcile that argument with the Wickard and Raich decisions?
how do you reconcile that argument with the Wickard and Raich decisions?
Ah, good question, Rossami.
I consider both Wickard and Raich illegitimate decisions. I don't think any reasonable person can justify those decisions. Thus my arguments are based on "how things should be," rather than "how things are." You correctly point out that the courts already gave the power for a controlled economy to congress who in turn gave it to the executive leaving my argument purely theoretical.
Considering all that, if you were arguing for "how things are," rather than "how things should be," I humbly apologize and acknowledge you are probably correct.
Yeah, I'd love to see Wickard and Raich overturned. But I don't see even two current members of SCOTUS agreeing with that position. And it certainly won't happen in this case because the Appellants didn't make that argument.
The Chinese Communist Party has no rights we are obligated to respect.
OK, but what about the Americans that want to use the app?
They can make their own version of tic toc
Let them eat cake?
They have other platforms available.
Nobody needs 15 kinds of apps?
Nobody needs to cooperate in the espionage of a hostile foreign power.
Name three? None of the masked socialist media apps have any appeal this century. Linktin makes sure no clients can contact you. Faecebook, like Xitter, is a monkey-cage for ordure-flingers to spatter each other. All of them seem deformed offspring of AOL, CompuServe and similar web impersonators--or even Slime and Newspeak, as fossils go. But if the National Socialists ban a communist app, it'll be all the easier for communists to ban Xitter (as in the case of Brazil). The USA cannot export Harry Anslinger's shoot-first prohibitionism and expect anything but market crashes, war and totalitarianism as outcomes.
This has nothing to do with China. It has everything to do with making sure only American companies can manipulate the minds of the yoots.
I fear that from the collection of concern-able evidence this is the only one that makes sense to me.
Do tell TikTok users. What personal information does TikTok require you submit in order to use it? Isn't it generally anonymous? And if it is anonymous how can it violate the privacy? Which is the only-single reason this law had justification to begin with.
Leaving only US Gov-Censorship control as a reason for such a law.
I'm going mostly with JFree on this one.
Hillary let the cat out of the old lady bag when she used the word "control".
ByteDance (which is 1 percent owned by the Chinese government)
That's 1% too many.
First, it alleges that PAFACA violates the First Amendment by imposing "content- and viewpoint-based restriction[s] on protected speech."
No it doesn't. There is no right to TikTok. Protected speech was possible long before TikTok came on the scene.
Second, TikTok claims the law is an unconstitutional bill of attainder, defined as "legislative punishment, of any form or severity, of specifically designated persons or groups,"
That enjoy American Constitutional protection.
ChiComs do not.
TikTok says the law singles out the company, and thus violates the Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause, by automatically labeling any app run by ByteDance as a foreign adversary-controlled application.
1% controlled is still adversary-controlled. And can do plenty of damage.
Would you send your child to a school who boasted that only 1% of their faculty were child molesters?
One might even argue that diminishing such a threat in that way is an overt attempt to fool you into believing it's not one.
Finally, TikTok alleges that the law violates the Fifth Amendment's Takings Clause, which holds that private property cannot be "taken for public use, without just compensation."
Well, fine - that's what equitable remedies are for.
as Joe Lancaster has argued in Reason.
I never get tired of you Clown World clowns citing to yourselves. Never. That's like pie-in-the-face clown level hilarious.
But one man's—or country's—propaganda can just as easily be an American citizen's protected political speech.
That is retarded Jack. YOU - YOU are retarded for even putting those words on my screen.
Did you intend to infer that all of TikTok is Chinese political sympathizers communicating anti-American Chinese Communist Party ideology by virtue of using their ChiCom app? Because if so, then you just made the slam dunk case for why TikTok should be banned in America.
Though banning the app could be politically expedient in the short term, it would come at the cost of weakening the First and Fifth Amendments for all Americans.
1A and 5A existed long before TikTok, and the absence of TikTok will affect them in no way whatsoever. Again, this is peak retard, Jack.
If all the TikTok servers suddenly and inexplicably crashed, would you be crying about how that's somehow violating the Constitution? No, you wouldn't. Because it doesn't.
Well, maybe you would. Because you're a retard.
Does a 1% stake make it a Chinese company?
Isn't that like saying 99 dems and 1 repub voting for a bill makes it a republican bill?
Btw, what's the percentage of Chinese parts in our military equipment? More than 1%?
Wait, answer my question first: Would you send your child to a school who boasted that only 1% of their faculty were child molesters?
Objection. Leading the Witness. Sustained.
You're the worst at "Leading the Witness" straw-man questions.
Note to foreign readers: Nambla Boy here evidently has more than one sockpuppet disguise.
Does anyone here know of Christian countries that passed laws making it a crime to listen to enemy propaganda? Death sentence laws?