Bad News for Universal Basic Income
Researchers found that giving people $1,000 every month for three years resulted in decreased productivity and earnings, and more leisure time.

The largest study into the real-world consequences of giving people an extra $1,000 per month, with no strings attached, has found that those individuals generally worked less, earned less, and engaged in more leisure time activities.
It's a result that seems to undercut some of the arguments for universal basic income (UBI), which advocates say would help lower- and middle-class Americans become more productive. The idea is that a UBI would reduce the financial uncertainty that might keep some people from pursuing new careers or entrepreneurial opportunities. Andrew Yang, the businessman and one-time Democratic presidential candidate who popularized the idea during his 2020 primary campaign, believes that a $1,000 monthly UBI would "enable all Americans to pay their bills, educate themselves, start businesses, be more creative, stay healthy, relocate for work, spend time with their children, take care of loved ones, and have a real stake in the future."
In theory, that sounds great. In reality, that's not what most people do, according to a working paper published this month.
The five researchers who published the paper tracked 1,000 people in Illinois and Texas over three years who were given $1,000 monthly gifts from a nonprofit that funded the study. The average household income for the study's participants was about $29,000 in 2019, so the monthly payments amounted to about a 40 percent increase in their income.
Relative to a control group of 2,000 people who received just $50 per month, the participants in the UBI group were less productive and no more likely to pursue better jobs or start businesses, the researchers found. They also reported "no significant effects on investments in human capital" due to the monthly payments.
Participants receiving the $1,000 monthly payments saw their income fall by about $1,500 per year (excluding the UBI payments), due to a two percentage point decrease in labor market participation and the fact that participants worked about 1.3 hours less per week than the members of the control group.
"You can think of total household income, excluding the transfers, as falling by more than 20 cents for every $1 received," wrote Eva Vivalt, a University of Toronto economist who co-authored the study, in a post on X. "This is a pretty substantial effect."
But if those people are working less, the important question to ask is how they spent the extra time—time that was, effectively, purchased by the transfer payments.
Participants in the study generally did not use the extra time to seek new or better jobs—even though younger participants were slightly more likely to pursue additional education. There was no clear indication that the participants in the study were more likely to take the risk of starting a new business, although Vivalt points out that there was a significant uptick in "precursors" to entrepreneurialism. Instead, the largest increases were in categories that the researchers termed social and solo leisure activities.
Some advocates for UBI might argue that the study shows participants were better off, despite the decline in working hours and earnings. Indeed, maybe that's the whole point?
"While decreased labor market participation is generally characterized negatively, policymakers should take into account the fact that recipients have demonstrated—by their own choices—that time away from work is something they prize highly," the researchers note in the paper's conclusion.
If you give someone $1,000 a month so they have more flexibility to live as they choose, there's nothing wrong with the fact that most people will choose leisure over harder work.
"So, free time is good [and] guaranteed income recipients use some of the money to free up time," argued Damon Jones, a professor at the University of Chicago's school of public policy, on X. "The results are bad if you want low-income people to be doing other things with their time, for example working."
Of course, if the money being used to fund a UBI program was simply falling from the sky, policy makers would have no reason to care about things like labor market effects and potential declines in productivity. If a program like this is costless, then the only goal is to see as many individuals self-actualize as much as possible. One person wants to learn new skills or start a business? Great! Others want to play video games all day? Awesome.
In reality, however, a UBI program is not costless and policy makers deciding whether to implement one must decide if the benefits will be worth the high price tag—Yang's proposal for a national UBI, for example, is estimated to cost $2.8 trillion annually.
That's why a study like this one matters, and why it's so potentially damaging to the case for a UBI. A welfare program—which is ultimately what this is—that encourages people to work less and earn less is not a successful public policy. Taxpayers should not be expected to fund an increase in individuals' leisure time, regardless of the mechanism used to achieve it.
In theory, substituting a UBI in place of the myriad, overlapping, and often inefficient welfare systems operated by the federal and state governments is an intriguing idea. In practice, this new study suggests those tradeoffs might not be as desirable.
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This is like people coming to the realization that a diet consisting entirely of ice cream isn’t good for you.
There’s nothing wrong with the ice cream diet!
/jeff
One of his dietary stap,es is a 55 gallon drum of Ben & Jerry’s twice per week.
Agree here, if I ever, or when I get a terminal condition like cancer, I am going on a strick butter pecan ice cream diet.
The bottom is composed of certain types of people. There's no getting around it. Giving them a few thousands bucks to play with is not going to help people who cant plan for tomorrow and dont understand how insurance works.
But on the plus side, local liquor and cigarette sales likely through the roof. Stimulating the economy!
check out reddit.com/r/antiwork
There are large groups of people who simply think it's unfair that they are required to work in order to feed themselves. Why should they be required to do things that society deems "useful"?
I'm in favor of UBI as a replacement for welfare. I'm in favor of single payer basic healthcare as a way of decoupling healthcare from employers.
I'm ok with one of the consequences being that some people can stop pretending to work.
"I’m in favor of UBI as a replacement for welfare. I’m in favor of single payer basic healthcare as a way of decoupling healthcare from employers."
And who covers the tab to more than double (possibly even triple) current tax revenues that would be needed to pay for all of that assuming we're not also going to try to get annual deficits back under $1Trillion per year in the foreseeable future?
I haven't, and won't, RTFA, no doubt giving much enjoyment to sarspasstick and jeffypop.
I'd be willing to bet that this $1000 was in addition to all the government charity they were already receiving, whether in the form of welfare, unemployment insurance, negative taxes, or whatever other taxes they were receiving.
Eh, doesn't matter. Those with no skin in the game and no personal responsibility are lousy stewards of other people's property. The idea that you'd even have to set up an experiment to test this hypothesis speaks more to collectivist delusions than science.
If I've been following the beltway libertarian argument style and strategy guide, I believe that the answer is we're supposed to agree to disagree, give them the UBI, and then at some point down the road, work at dismantling the rest of the welfare state.
Yeah, that’s gonna happen.
"I believe that the answer is we’re supposed to agree to disagree, give them the UBI, and then at some point down the road, work at dismantling the rest of the welfare state."
Ya. And like we see with everything else, ANY attempt to claw back at UBI once that horse leaves the barn will be met with "but its a human right! you hate people and want them to die!". The same arguments we hear about medicare/aid and SS.
You only get one shot, once it passes, its there forever. Taking away everyones free paychecks will be guaranteed electoral suicide.
“but its a human right! you hate people and want them to die!”
As it turns out, this is actually true in my case. Particularly with anyone who uses that sort of line on me. 😉
And just watch as these amazingly creative people who are now freed from the burdens of working (and actually creating value) will suddenly create even more value with their artistic and literary endeavors!
Just imagine if, instead of giving them $1,000, we just replace them at their job with an AI. That we've been effectively doing the same with manufacturing automation for years.
The Bladerunner/Cyberpunk/Deus Ex techno-utopia is right around the corner!
This hysteria about robots and AI and tech taking all our jobs and leaving society full of destitute criminals and a few uber rich people doesn’t pass the smell test.
* If so few people are working, then just as few people are buying, so who the hell is buying all that crap that the robots are making?
* Don’t blather about UBI or any kind of government welfare, because that’s the flip side of the same coin: Who’s paying all those taxes being redistributed to all the destitute criminals?
* The idiocy of pretending that government can tax people enough to pay bums to buy the products and pay for the taxes is beyond perpetual motion machines.
* Don’t pretend printing presses can make up the difference. Fiscal reality will stop that nonsense sooner rather than later. How long did Weimar German keep printing money, 3 years or something?
* ETA this same hysteria has been going on for centuries, probably since discovering how o start fire rather than just maintain it. Agriculture used to employ 90% of the population. Why does everyone glamorize manufacturing jobs when manufacturing output is higher than ever? Is there something romantic about working in hot noisy dangerous factories? Give me a break! Obviously none of the people clamoring for more manufacturing jobs have ever worked in factories.
Making stuff is the base of wealth creation.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Why pollute my comment with such a stupid non-sequitor?
"Manufacturing is the mightiest wealth-creation engine ever devised by man. Countries that listened to the sweet nothings whispered by the so called educated or moneyed class about not needing to create wealth are now second- and third-rate powers in the world today. Go study what happened to Holland when they abandoned their textile industries 300 years ago. Or Spain, which had a thriving industrial base that was destroyed when that country’s money factors decided that the new world (South American) gold and silver would meet all their needs. England, France, Italy, and others were strong and prosperous until they abandoned wealth creation and started sucking up to the money factors and government. Each one is struggling to survive its own crisis today.
https://www.thefabricator.com/thefabricator/blog/machining/manufacturing-is-wealth-creation
And my point wasn’t even specifically about manufacturing. Abject poverty is the natural state of man. Wealth creation is what lifted him out of it. The system that incentivizes people to accumulate wealth also incentivizes them to produce more total wealth… unless it specifically doesn’t.
The issue, and my point, is: whether someone hands them $1000 or gives them an AI or a robot to do their job or programs an AI or a robot to give them $1000… it is demonstrated that $1001 dollars does not (clearly) come out. That, such a system, whether via AI or mechanical automation or straight transfer of dollars openly encourages people not to accumulate wealth if not actively preventing them from doing so.
Maybe the owners and the people at the top want to acumulate wealth and are handing out $$ and AIs and assembly robots and jobs in order to accumulate more wealth for themselves and/or produce more total wealth. Maybe, they adopt systems of responsible corporate governance that dictate they do otherwise.
This hysteria about robots and AI and tech taking all our jobs and leaving society full of destitute criminals and a few uber rich people doesn’t pass the smell test.
It's not hysteria, it's not just about robots and AI and tech, and you inferred your own wealth disparity. And "hot noisy dangerous factories"? Have you been in a factory in the last 50 yrs.?
We live in an era where the pre-eminent tech genius billionaire with a notable streak for "being fruitful" can get swindled by the most ontologically stupid Marxist "Agree to cut off your son's genitals or they may kill themselves." claptrap. The idea that there never will or could possibly be a decline of any kind is denying reality and feeding the "Money printer go brrrrr." narrative.
You didn't answer a single part of my comment. I can only infer that you agree 100% and raised a strawman, or don't have any understanding of basic logic or economics.
Actually, I specifically answered your comments. Just not the retarded non-sequitur questions you asked about the falsehoods you inferred. Whether I have an understanding of basic logic or economics is immaterial. No amount of supercomputing perfection dedicated to answering you prevents you from burdening others with your retarded and retarding expectations derived from an intellect that self-evidently hasn’t progressed since the days of industrialized climate control.
The new economy will be nothing like what we have now. The money will be digital and likely global. Printing presses and the need for money to be backed up will not exist. Physical currency will be confiscated just like FDR did with gold.
There will be no consumer based society as we know it. People will not be buying things like they are today. You will own nothing and like it, as it has been said. You will not have 23 types of deodorant. You will have an account, and you will have some number of credits deposited so you have the illusion of commerce when you buy your victory gin.
This could be brought in after a catastrophic event. The lesson from the pandemic is never underestimate the citizenry's willingness to capitulate during a time of crisis. And the pandemic wasn't that big of a crisis. What do you think people would have surrendered if 15% or 20% of the population was dying?
Smell test or not, digital currency, advanced AI, and robotics will put it in the realm of possibility. It's not ripe yet but you can see fruit on the tree.
Remember learn to code? Yeah, AI will have that covered. Now what do you do?
That's a good recitation of the libertarian/conspiracy theorist's view of globalism. While I don't discount this entirely, it's highly unlikely to come to pass even if the Klaus Schwab's of the world are working towards it. The overwhelming and likely unstoppable trend is for more and more efficient manufacturing at lower costs and with much fewer man hours per widget. In other words, an oversupply is much more likely than under supply of manufactured goods. Food and fresh water (on a global basis) - that might be different.
“”That’s a good recitation of the libertarian/conspiracy theorist’s view of globalism””
It's more like Orwell, and Dick.
“”The overwhelming and likely unstoppable trend is for more and more efficient manufacturing at lower costs and with much fewer man hours per widget. In other words, an oversupply is much more likely than under supply of manufactured goods.””
Fewer man hours is fewer jobs. Robotics/automation expansion will keep reducing it further. What’s the sustainability on that?
The major news outlets could be reduced to AI writing content with political parties entering the prompts. Could it be worse than the crap published?
* If so few people are working, then just as few people are buying, so who the hell is buying all that crap that the robots are making?
Supply and demand still rules the world. If supply goes up and demand stays the same, prices will come down until you get equilibrium. And the straw man part of your argument is an assumption that nobody or very few people are still working - the real world threat is something more on the order of 15 - 20% unemployment, leaving plenty of people to buy all that cheap crap.
* Don’t blather about UBI or any kind of government welfare, because that’s the flip side of the same coin: Who’s paying all those taxes being redistributed to all the destitute criminals?
That these are the flip side of the same coin is precisely the point. The argument for UBI (or the cogent argument for UBI) is that UBI is supposed to replace other forms of welfare because it is both more efficient and better for the recipients who can then decide what they want to do with it. If they want to buy alcohol and cigarettes instead of using it for rent or government-approved groceries - that should be their decision (so goes the libertarian argument). Having both UBI and welfare, of course, makes no sense. If you want neither - that might be a logically defensible argument, but it'll never fly, at least not in the US or Europe.
* The idiocy of pretending that government can tax people enough to pay bums to buy the products and pay for the taxes is beyond perpetual motion machines.
Again, there is no real world scenario in which everyone is out of work because of AI and automation. This is a straw man argument.
* Don’t pretend printing presses can make up the difference. Fiscal reality will stop that nonsense sooner rather than later. How long did Weimar German keep printing money, 3 years or something?
This is all about tax rate / breadth of the tax base vs. benefit rate / breadth of those receiving benefits. The math is no different than the current welfare state, except by broadening the number of people receiving benefits (universal) you need to either decrease the amount of benefits and/or increase taxes. The argument would be that in an AI/automated world, there is more than enough production, so a higher tax rate is acceptable (not sure if I buy that argument, but it's not illogical). Money printing is not necessary (although on that sooner than later note - see Japan).
* ETA this same hysteria has been going on for centuries, probably since discovering how o start fire rather than just maintain it.
I agree with this point, but at the same time, economies tend to take time to adjust. The great depression was partly caused by the failure to quickly adjust to the automotive/electric age at the turn of the century. Farm workers displaced by tractors and other similarly displaced workers could not immediately move on to automated factory work - the jobs just weren't immediately there. After a long period of adjustment, there eventually were plenty of jobs in the new manufacturing plants, but it caused a lot of despair in the interim.
" Is there something romantic about working in hot noisy dangerous factories? "
Yes. I think when we say 'work' the image of the factory worker comes to mind. Work is sweat and grime. I worked for a while in an auto factory. It was pretty good, as I wasn't on the line, but in the maintenance dept. doing something different every day. Best thing about it was the pay, and of course, the UAW.
Your belief is ABSURD. The plan is NEVER to dismantle any government payments.
AUSTERITY!!!!!!! RIOT NOW!!!!!
Just look at Europe. France will riot about anything. They will riot for greener environmental laws, then riot when the government taxes gas to pay for said laws.
Captain Obvious strikes again.
Wait! Do you mean people respond to economic incentives in ways that could be counter productive? That's just crazy talk buddy.
>>It’s a result that seems to undercut some of the arguments for universal basic income
yes, because arguments for universal basic income are universally basically retarded.
Shocking!
We already knew that from the biggest UBI scheme of all -- Social Security. When people get a steady check from the government, they stop working (most common retirement age is 62, when the checks start), whether or not they are able-bodied and regardless of their net worth. Most then live a life of leisure, supported by struggling younger workers.
….supported by
struggling younger workersthe contributions they were forced to make during their working years.Sorry but the original was correct. Our contributions were forced from us but they all went to for prior payees. Any payments we hope to collect will be extorted from our kids. Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, not a "lockbox".
One of the explicit goals of designing Social Security was the Ponzi scheme structure, intended to lock the public up in thinking they had accounts so all the detractors would face an irate public if they tried to remove it.
So the “struggling young workers” is not a new thing.
Nope. If you want to blame the Boomers the case is that they didn't make enough wage slaves to pay the bills. Fair enough. But a lot of us struggled to support the Greatest. Of course we grew up being told that overpopulation would destroy the planet and that continues to be the conventional wisdom to this day. Bottom line, we're all fucked.
"...If you want to blame the Boomers the case is that they didn’t make enough wage slaves to pay the bills. Fair enough. But a lot of us struggled to support the Greatest..."
Use of the term "wage slaves":
FOAD, asshole.
You probably don't remember, but when social security was started, it was to 'incentivize' older workers to retire and make room for the unemployed young men who were just sitting around.
(because, as one writer put it, large numbers of unemployed young men have frightened politicians since the French Revolution)
And like the mouse and the cookie, it has proven very hard to stop.
Somehow, people who have had a gun stuck to their head and up to 15% of their earnings taken a way on a promise, expect the promise to be fulfilled.
Of course, there has been a bit of 'mission creep':
1939 Two new categories of beneficiaries added: spouse and minor children of a retired worker.
1961 Early retirement age lowered to age 62 at reduced benefits.
1972 Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program federalized and assigned to Social Security Administration.
1984 Congress passed the Disability Benefits Reform Act modifying several aspects of the disability program.
1997 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, (TANF), replaces Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program placed under SSA.
1997 State Children's Health Insurance Program for low income citizens – SCHIP added to Social Security Administration.
Large numbers of young men with nothing much to do and little or no access to recreational sex have been a particularly dangerous phenomenon throughout human history, long before the French Revolution. All it takes is one opportunist with a little extra charisma and a use in mind for a big pool of directionless testosterone and leaders have to start altering plans on short notice.
"they stop working "
I'm sure they continue to work. It's that they no longer wish to be 'workers,' ie drones, hirelings, servants, or employees. I wonder why?
Because assholes like you are willing to give them my money.
FOAD, shit-for-brains.
Ah, so the ones that work start producing things no one else wants.
I had an argument once with a Communist ("Not a Stalinist!") co-worker who wanted governments to pay artists a living wage (she had just returned as an exchange student in Leningrad in the old USSR). I asked who decides who the artists are. She said artists do. I said I'm an artist, I'm going to paint circles on walls. She said that's not art. I said I'm the artist, not you.
She absolutely refused to see the connection.
" I said I’m an artist,"
You'd have to prove it. The USSR had the finest chess team in the world. Not because people simply proclaimed themselves chess players, but because the were able to win consistently. Same with athletes, rocket scientists, musicians, and many other high (in USSR) prestige fields where competition was intense.
I met an artist who was in the process of 'painting circles on the wall.' Maybe not just walls but suitable surfaces in central public places like Beijing's Tiananmen. He'd been around the world, including some obscure places where his art could have put him in danger with unappreciative authorities armed with guns and knives. It's called conceptual art, which I sense you would disapprove of, I like it though. To own a piece of traditional art, oil on canvas, for example, you have to buy it. To own a piece of conceptual art, you merely have to think it. No money need change hands.
You can't even read the most basic sentences.
"I asked who decides who the artists are. She said artists do."
Bullshit I have to prove anything, by her own definition.
And how the hell do artists "win" anything, if there's no market in which to sell art?
Gadzooks you are dumb.
"there’s no market in which to sell art"
Who said there was no market? The USSR was filled with art galleries, concert halls, movie theaters, sports venues, all public spaces with a mandate to display the peoples' art.
"And how the hell do artists “win” anything"
You're the one claiming to be the artist. You really don't know? Artists "win" the approval of an appreciative audience. True story: Andy Warhol, a fey little boy from a tough neighborhood in Pittsburgh. The perfect target for the local bullies. How did little Andy win this one-sided contest? He sketched their portraits for them, and he gained some respect.
"She said artists do."
She lied. It's unions (the U in the USSR) that decide such matters.
Outside of the USSR and other shit-holes, you get to call yourself an "artist" if you make a living at it; the market choses.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Asshole.
"...She absolutely refused to see the connection..."
trueman isn't intelligent enough to see the connection.
Well, communist, so of course logic wasn't her strong point.
"Ah, so the ones that work start producing things no one else wants."
No strings attached. According to the article. If you want to work according to what others want from you, there's always the possibility of hiring yourself out to an employer. Different strokes etc.
Yes, a good summation, but you left out the half that counts.
"If you want to live off other people's work, there's always socialism, and in the meantime, here's your UBI, which is probably more than you'd get under socialism."
"If you want to live off other people’s work"
Humans are herd animals. There's no one among us who doesn't live off the work of others. It starts as soon as we're born and goes on from there.
Dumb, dumb, dumb. Not because of the dumb things you say or what you misconstrue, but because you think you are fooling anyone.
I take it you disagree with what I've written but are at a loss for anything sensible to say.
Allow me to translate for ABC. Trade is not 'living off the work of others'.
There's no shame in making a living through trade. It's not everyone's cup of tea however. The article makes it clear that, no strings attached UBI recipients would rather spend time with their families. I'm sure there are others who'd rather be in the market trading and putting as much distance as possible between themselves and their families. Different strokes.
“…It’s not everyone’s cup of tea however…”
Eating is, so guess what.
No, it seems you are entirely too stupid to understand replies.
That might be the most retarded thing I have read on Reason, at least this month.
Herd animals? Like bison and zebras? Last time I checked ALL members of the herd do the work of eating as individuals. And except for mothers nursing calves, no individual can elect not to graze, and expect others will come along and spit pre-chewed grass into its mouth.
Maybe you mean pack animals, where some members might be given food by others, usually because of status. Or, through violence (or threat of violence) some individuals might take food from others. Is that what you are hoping for?
Social creatures. Ants and bees may be a better example. Like the ants and bees, we don't all feed ourselves by grazing. If you are a member of the elite, a queen or drone or 'rentier,' as we humans call them, you can expect lower ranked members of society to supply you with a livelihood. Bison and zebras are fine creatures to be sure, and I admire their ability to graze on grass and little else, but their social organization is nowhere near what we see in human society or that of ants and bees.
You love bees, don't you? Who doesn't? Check out this video on bee cognition. It highlights their individual capabilities so you might appreciate their hidden powers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKOrY5uLqc
"...If you are a member of the elite, a queen or drone or ‘rentier,’ as we humans call them, you can expect lower ranked members of society to supply you with a livelihood..."
Outside of royalty in the few places it still exists:
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
FOAD, asshole.
The intended purpose of Social Security was always to help facilitate retirement for older people, so it might be less of a revelation than you might think that retiring at the same age where Social Security (and at which many pension plans also kick in for those who still had them as part of their compensation going back to the 70s and 80s for the "boomers" who are now mostly into "retirement age".
With benefits payments under $2k/month for most current retirees, nobody is "living a life of leisure" on Social Security payments alone.
you are if you move to Portugal.
you can live an upper middle-class lifestyle with a nice apartment in Porto, Portugal on your $3,700 a month from American Social Security
in Portugal is a first world country with extremely low crime, good medical care, clean streets, and a large American expatriate population.
The largest study into the real-world consequences of giving people an extra $1,000 per month, with no strings attached, has found that those individuals generally worked less, earned less, and engaged in more leisure time activities.
Well then – attach strings. The origin of debt jubilee in Babylonia was to release the burdens of debt on individuals in order to free up time to do work as ‘citizens’. It’s not a no-strings deal. It meant people did work as citizens. Everyone. It’s how they built irrigation projects – defended against invaders – etc.
It is the framing of ‘universal basic income’ that is the real problem. It simply assumes that ‘money’ is going to be created by one group of people – extracted from a different group of people – in order to be distributed to a third group of people – and the first group that created the money out of thin air is going to receive rent/interest forever. Of course that’s a horseshit idea.
The reframed question is – how much value can be created by everyone who chooses to contribute to those projects if that value is distributed equally to all who contribute. It is a contribution of labor – not no strings attached. It is entirely voluntary effort and the effect on those who don’t contribute is that some portion of the ‘market’ labor force will simply stop doing that and will do the ‘UBI/citizen work instead. It will tilt the playing field seriously and that is why those who control the current system will oppose it. But those are precisely the people who shouldn’t be allowed to define how it works
Fuck off you lazy fuck.
So you prefer govt based on coercion rather than citizenship. No surprise.
Amazing how you go unto coercive descriptions instead of getting government ment out of welfare based programs. Fuck off lib.
Your ilk doesn't want ANY entity doing 'welfare'. You all oppose churches doing it. You oppose govt doing it. You oppose civic/voluntary associations doing it. You oppose the EXISTENCE of people who aren't doing what you want when you want. Your populism is aimed at demonizing the person who even asks for help. Their existence is an affront to your sensitivities.
What you DO want is a government that is solely coercive because that is exactly what propertarians want. Just as Rothbard wrote - Take Back the Streets: Get Rid of the Bums. Again: unleash the cops to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares? Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society.
Coercion with the power to make people disappear. Kill them if necessary. Just make them disappear from your precious eyesight - from your neighborhood - from anyone even knowing they exist.
It is why your 'philosophy' is utter shit. Whatever you want should be ignored. Whatever 'freedom' you want should be opposed. There is nothing you say that is worthy of being listened to.
Why is the use of the word “ilk” suddenly popular?
Because 'spawn' or something equally derisive is not really applicable
“You all oppose churches doing it.”
Lefty retard making up bullshit.
Just look at the posts here with churches helping the homeless.
Yeah, look at all those comments which you didn’t read which explained what the objections were.
ETA If you think that's a bad description, then summarize what those comments said.
You can't because that would require understanding your enemy.
FOAD, slaver.
Here’s what you really believe in……
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
None of that came from my comment. You're just inventing shit out of thin air.
You don’t think I pay attention to what you leftists say? I’ve read your comments here for years. You pretty much fall in line or some version of all of the above. And as you are a democrat, how can you not? This represents the overall platform of the DNC and most of your candidates.
Just admit what you are.
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204 No Content"
Describes your posts, except for the lies.
Considering that's what you just did, why do you pretend you oppose this?
If your goal is to make people work harder, longer hours - be more productive, in other words, surely giving them extra money, no strings attached, is not the way to do it. Less money, whether lower minimum wages, higher taxes, makes a lot more sense.
Or you could just fuck off and stop thinking ANYONE knows more about employer-employee relations than the employers and employees.
That's the problem, you collectivists hate individuals because you think individuals are universally retards. It's only once they're given that government paycheck that they turn into thinking human beings.
Fuck off, slaver.
Your problem is that you believe human interactions are limited to employer employee. That if a particular human objective cannot be achieved in that context (in this case - generating income), well stop wasting time and get back to fucking work.
I suspect you're not quite so constipated as to really believe that. For example Im sure you understand parent-child or leader-follower interactions. But most conservatives will always link a specific interaction type to a specific context. So for example - it would just be a head scratcher for you to see how citizen-citizen interaction could be used in a context of generating income.
What the fuck are you babbling about?
He's as clear as socialism.
"Or you could just fuck off and stop thinking ANYONE knows more about employer-employee relations than the employers and employees."
Read the article. It's clear that these employees receiving the UBI know enough about being an employee to prefer spending time with their families. I wonder why. Are their families really that special?
No, they prefer spending other people's money to working for their own.
Read the article. They continue to work for their own. They just prefer to spend more time with their families. I wonder why. Are their families really that special?
Listen up, retard. Your family is important to you. And how you decide to spend time together is also important to you.
But just because you judge something important (to you) there is NO moral justification that others have to sacrifice to make that possible.
You--and you alone--are responsible for supporting your own life, and fulfilling you desires.
" Your family is important to you."
That may be why those in the study prefer to spend time with them. Perhaps another study with subjects who don't have families could clear things up for you.
"You–and you alone–are responsible for supporting your own life, and fulfilling you desires."
That's not how human societies work. They never have. We all depend on each other to varying degrees. There are creatures who live their lives in solitude, even clever ones like the octopus, smartest members of the invertebrate kingdom. But we more closely resemble the ants and bees for their rich social organization.
"...That’s not how human societies work. They never have. We all depend on each other to varying degrees. There are creatures who live their lives in solitude, even clever ones like the octopus, smartest members of the invertebrate kingdom. But we more closely resemble the ants and bees for their rich social organization..."
trueman's mommy told him he was smart. The ignoramus trueman believed here but she was lying; see directly above.
FOAD, slaver.
Or you know have less government involvement in everything, which will lower costs, so people do need less money .
"Or you know have less government involvement in everything, "
How likely is that?
It’s not like nothing was gained … it just wasn’t monetary. Time is a valuable resource, and some people would rather have the time an extra $1000 UBI would bring. Anecdotal : my best friend is a working mom; if she had an additional $1k she would immediately work less and spend more time with kids herself, instead of a babysitter / nanny being there when they get home from school. Not all wealth is money.
No shit. The point is that the alleged justification for a UBI is not a mere wealth transfer. People (like Yang) who argue for a UBI claim that the recipients will use the extra money to invest in things that increase productivity and wealth. The claim that the only difference between "the poor" and "the rich" is the flexibility that initial family affluence provides and that providing some magical minimum affluence, the poor would become middle class. Instead, as this study and your comment point out, most people do other things with the money and stay just as poor.
The claim that the only difference between “the poor” and “the rich” is the flexibility that initial family affluence provides and that providing some magical minimum affluence, the poor would become middle class. Instead, as this study and your comment point out, most people do other things with the money and stay just as poor.
Yeah - give my uncle $1,000 and I absolutely guarantee he's on his way to Vegas, after which he'll return to his trailer.
The argument that UBI will encourage more investment and entrepreneurial ventures is like the argument that feeding domestic dogs an extra cup of food per day will lead them to form hunting packs with other pets in the neighborhood and start depopulating local wildlife because of the extra energy they'll have from being better fed.
The more insane argument around the Yang UBI plan is that it would have little net cost because it would replace existing welfare and public assistance programs while also improving the situation of people whose current benefits levels total out to far more than $1k/month. The most confusing part of the "Yang plan" was that someone living in Silicon Valley (where a time-share on a refrigerator box costs $1200/month) figured that $1k/month would enable most people to ensure their basic expenses are met in a nation where people making twice that much can still qualify for EITC and SNAP benefits pretty much everywhere as well as rent and utilities subsidies in many states, especially California.
If this is important to you, then you should give your friend $1000. You can both enjoy the wealth. And STFU.
Fuck off you thieving marxist cunt. That you're coercively taking from others to fund leisure time is exactly the thing an evil POS like you and your friend studiously ignore. Do something of value to others to earn your way through life rather than demanding your life and choices be the responsibility of others to support.
In other news, water is wet. Film at 11.
That wonderful moment when the social engineer's beautiful theories get put in the harsh, cold light of reality and are proved to be failures.
And then ignored by the social engineers.
UBI is basically a conservative idea. Too bad the controlled study failed to show effectiveness.
Did you want them to lie?
UBI is basically a conservative idea.
Only in the sense that some conservatives have argued that it would be better than the current way welfare is administered.
I thought you already reached peak stupid. I can’t believe how mistaken I was.
"UBI is basically a conservative idea..."
You.
Are.
Basically.
Full
Of.
Shit.
We may come to a point where AI and robots are doing most jobs and there is little need for humans anymore. The good thing about robots is that they work for no pay.
So when that day comes we will have to transition one of two ways:
1. People purchase robots who get jobs on their behalf while they stay at home collecting the paychecks
2. The economy will depend on UBI while robots do all the actual work.
I have a feeling that #1 will happen first, and over a century or so, we will transition to #2.
People have been making that prediction since the start of the Industrial Revolution. It is no more likely to happen now than over the past 250 years.
Now there's far more powerful AI than there was 250 years ago
It is absolutely fucking impossible.
* If people aren't working, then they aren't paying taxes to pay the welfare they depend on.
* If people don't have money from working, then they can't buy the products the robots are producing.
* Taxing the rich who own the robots, to pay the taxes that provide welfare, so the unemployed can buy the products, which provides the money to tax, is a perpetual motion machine.
Anyone who believes that circle of lies is an abject moron.
IT CANNOT FUCKING HAPPEN.
Taxation is theft. Or the very least, most of the taxes we see today and the vast majority of governments revenues today are derived from bad taxes. They are bad for the economy, the consumers and ironically, even for the state itself. They are inherently immoral, as taxing one's income - be it from labor or capital - is a malevolent thing, and probably unconstitutional too. Thus, the only morally acceptable taxes are those derived from economic rent (land value tax, gambling, occupational licensing, concessions, patents, etc...)
You have a weird sense of morality.
Another strange remark without any meaningful explanation.
Well if you dream that the robots are great, so there is a surplus of food, energy, housing, etc - you don't need money. You know kinda like Star Trek.
The odds of that are basically zero.
Now, maybe you could buy a robot, who does your work. An avatar or an investment. That would keep the money flowing.
I agree with you. It's very hard to picture the system man has used for 6000 years - bartering (That's all money is). But if you went back a few hundred years, remember people were paid in salt. Now salt is almost worthless.
Times change. Future is hard to guess.
The main reason the federation theoretically worked is that energy was absurdly cheap and plentiful. Plus the technology to use that energy to create anything for, food to durable goods was cheap and ubiquitous. None of those things exist, and won’t for at least a few generations, if ever.
Plus, we also have the problem that the same people who want UBI also want to strangle our most efficient means of energy production in addition to stopping any progress in new energy production infrastructure.
Much easier to just get rid of the left.
The Federation economy was also impossible because it assumed no one would ever innovate or change things. Which is pretty funny coming from the UBI folks who think all that free time will encourage innovation.
Innovation occurs a lot in the Federation economy. Look at the differences in tech between TOS and TNG.
You didn't understand my example. People would get paid for doing jobs, and they pay their taxes. But in general the humans will lounge about at home while the robots do the actual work and hand their paychecks to the humans. Basically like slavery, except with robots, so it's not like slavery.
A land value tax is the only way forward. And with a LVT you also get a citizen's dividend, ideally. Apart from the fact that LVT is:
- the least bad tax, or in other words, perhaps the most moral one
- the most economically efficient one, in fact, it even produces positive externalities
- the easiest&cheapest to collect and the most difficult to evade
- with the addition bonus to resolve housing crises, urban sprawling, optimal transportation, etc...
- it is also the only future-proof revenue for the gov't, as it would not be affected by labor-substituting robots and automation (the owner of those machines will still own the location of the factory, and thus he can still pay the LVT, unaffected by unemployment)
Suppose we reach a Star Trek level of advancement in the far future... the sooner a state implements LVT and citizen's dividend, the greater the permanent fund be that'll pay the CD to all its citizens. Thus, by my estimation, by the time the CD would be high enough to greatly affect productivity and employment (like the stupid UBI from the get-go), human labor would be largely obsolete.
I can see you own no land.
Please... we are not communists. Which means that supporters of LVT had long since been arguing that the state would of course compensate any current land owners accordingly. But it's true that - depending on the % of the LVT - it would change the way how the people (and the market) thinks about properties. I would even go as far as to say that some level of rent-seeking could even stay. It's just that rent-seeking ought to be taxed first and foremost, while labor, capital and wealth should never ever be taxed. Would it be more realistic if I sad that the state really should not tax anything? Sure it would be the best thing ever, but it's impossible, so...
So yeah, tax the thing I don’t have .
So you support income taxes. Well, that explains it...
Well if only land owners can vote then I'm cool. But that would be racist or something.
Home Ownership Rate in Singapore increased to 89.70 percent in 2023 from 89.30 percent in 2022. Home Ownership Rate in Singapore averaged 89.11 percent from 1980 until 2023, reaching an all time high of 93.10 percent in 2001 and a record low of 58.80 percent in 1980. source: Statistics Singapore
You see, in an ideal state - and Singapore certainly does most of the things on the economy right - there would be little to no landless citizens. And Singapore also has a form of land value tax.
Singapore is a beautiful authoritarian hellscape of conformity.
Well, yes... they aren't perfect. They're a largely authoritarian state with sound economic/fiscal policies along with decent wealth&investments managed by (surprisingly independent) agencies.
While the US is a (supposedly) democratic country with increasingly more authoritarianism along with and increasingly bad (and already pretty fucking bad) economic/fiscal policy on its way to an epic debt crisis.
Alas, no state is perfect. An ideal state would of course be the pinnacle of constitutionalism, liberty, democracy, economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism. I'm afraid I haven't yet met with such a state...
And in such a state, the LVT would be a dead letter.
Either there’s a state or there isn’t one (pure anarchy).
If there’s a state, then the ideal state is a minarchist one (raises just enough revenue to cover all necessary expenditures).
Yet the state must raise revenue somehow, which means that the state must have at least one source of revenue.
All George et al said that this single tax ought to be the LVT aka the “least bad tax”.
So, the alternatives I can think of are:
– no state at all i.e. anarchy
– a state that collects all the bad taxes by punishing labor, capital, wealth, as opposed to punishing rent-seeking behavior
"Singapore is a beautiful authoritarian hellscape of conformity."
A typical east asian country, in other words. Though Singapore is notable for its embrace of multiculturalism, the English language and its cultural sterility. I'm not sure about their water. I think they have to import the bulk of it from Malaysia, a foreign country.
A parcel tax is the only tax that can be paid anonymously, self-assessment has various simple enforcement mechanisms (seller snitching to collect a fortune in bounty, insurance restitution limited to the self-assessed value), and it’s reasonably proportional to wealth (it’s only a wealth tax if the taxpayer has zero income).
As opposed to income and consumption taxes, which are regressive and require massive intrusive audits, such as regulating flea markets, yard sales, and barter such as building a deck in exchange for a root canal.
But if you mean the Georgian LVT, that things is a joke.
* My parcel tax depends on what others do to improve their parcel’s value?
* Proponents claim renters never pay it, as if landlords won’t pass it on like every other business expense.
And more. No one who looks into it for more than a few minutes can come away think the Georgian LVT makes any sense.
The funniest part is that there seem to be as many contorted definitions and descriptions of the Georgian LVT as there are proponents. All they really agree on is the points which make it so stupid.
Well, as much as I hate an appeal to authority, your comment really baffles me. So you say that LVT is a joke despite the fact that there's a widespread consensus among economists all across the board that it is the "least bad tax"? So they're all wrong, even when though they agree on something (for once), despite their ideological differences, and you are right? Of course, I don't agree with them because they're famous or because they occasionally have a Nobel Prize (e.g. Krugman is a fucking retard, while Friedman was a savant), but it's what it is. They are correct, just as Thomas Paine and Henry George was correct. LVT has countless many upsides and no real downsides, apart from the fact that post-implementation it would disrupt the status quo (which would necessitate compensation to existing land owners) for a while. Yes, land prices would go down, which would seemingly be a bad thing for land owners (unless they want to move and buy another plot, which would cost proportionally less also), but then they would all be compensated (either directly and immediately, or via some other mechanism e.g. fixed-term bonds offsetting the LVT until maturity).
The funniest part is that there seem to be as many contorted definitions and descriptions of the Georgian LVT as there are proponents.
Whelp, it's almost like you're describing libertarianism. Since we're not collectivists, we don't really have any Central Tenet, Holy Dogma or Current Narrative on all things in life.
… widespread consensus among economists..
LOL
Naturally, you are correct... and all those retards like Adam Smith and David Ricardo were worthless idiots. Yet you know it all, Mister!
Paul Krugman is an economist.
Piketty is an economist.
Yes, and both of them are retards. What? Are you surprised?
It is the consensus of MOST, if not all economists. And not just the current ones, the past ones too: from Smith, Ricardo, Paine and countless others. So instead of focusing on the bad apples, maybe you should focus one the vast majority of non-retarded apples.
Why are all these different taxes on property being discussed to give the government revenue to do what ever it wants?
Why aren't we talking about limiting taxes to the amount of money to do budgeted items?
My county taxes me specifically to provide a set of enumerated services, my percentage of that total bill being calculated based on my share of total county land value.
LVT is not needed - and not 'more moral' than this system, neither are complicated 'anonymous' tax payment systems.
Lots of claims made without evidence. My land produces no income. I'm told it has a somehow quantifiable value by people who have never been here. I have already paid enough property taxes, insurance and basic maintenance costs that if I were to realise that price it would still be a massive loss. I have almost no control over the value of my land and if I were to use the political system to protect it's value I'd be labelled a NIMBY. Lately I'm told that I have too much square footage and I'm just being greedy for not giving it to a family of illegal immigrants or something. You can have my land when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers.
Lots of claims made without evidence.
Have you never heard about LVT before? Because I see that you don’t really get it. Perhaps you should read about it some more before you jump to conclusions.
No, you are here championing it.
If people aren't buying, do a better job selling.
" Lately I’m told that I have too much square footage "
Just ignore it. If you are still measuring land by the square foot, you don't have too much.
Who fixes the robots?
Why do we have all these illegal immigrants coming if we have robots to do their jobs?
It may happen someday, sure, but not probably for 50 to 100 years.
Same reason these people want light rail even though self-driving taxis are the future.
Who fixes the robots?
Other robots, duh... 😉
If the robots are doing all the work, that means the robots are fulfilling all human needs - such as food and shelter.
"Andrew Yang, the businessman and one-time Democratic presidential candidate who popularized the idea during his 2020 primary campaign, believes that a $1,000 monthly UBI would "enable all Americans to pay their bills,..."
My monthly bills are considerably more than $1,000
As long as Andrew Yang is footing the bill, I'm all for his generous idea, as soon as it's part of my taxes he can fuck right off with that authoritarian BS.
Mine aren’t.
But you can bet that as soon as you give me a free gran a month they will be.
The fans are going into the garbage and the AC is going to be set at 76. I'll subscribe to some streaming services and start using Uber Eats. I could use a new phone every year too.
You mean just handing people money made them more likely to be lazy?
Surely that could not be foreseen.
In short: UBI is a bad idea. Citizen's dividend is a good idea.
Differences:
- UBI is financed by income taxes i.e. inherently bad and immoral taxes, while CD would be financed by LVT i.e. taxes on economic rent (or, as in Alaska, royalty fees from natural resources)
- UBI's goal in inherently unsustainable i.e. paying a livable wage to all, while CD's goal is sustainable since it would only ever redistribute returns (sometimes more, sometimes less)
- based on experiment, CD is just a fraction of UBI e.g. in Alaska citizens get at best a 1000 bucks per year, not per month... consequently, it has much less negative effects on productivity, especially if it disbursed per month
- all in all, CD is compatible with all libertarian tenets, while UBI is not
If you want money, you need to be productive.
Yes. Did I say anything to the contrary? Nope.
And yet a couple comments above you said 'lazy fuck' in response to a specific suggestion to get people productive by eliminating the 'no strings attached'.
So what is it? Do you want 'productivity' defined by only a particular subset of people?
You have to do something or produce something that other people want. It’s not that difficult.
And that is precisely what should happen. The difference is that the determiners of that value would be the people contributing their labor and the people receiving the value. Rather than public-private partnerships, VC/banks, donors to politicians, etc and the other intermediaries of oligarchy.
The analogy is when we made the transition from a ‘night watchman’ force to a ‘professional’ paid police force. With night watchmen, it was the nightwatchmen and the neighborhoods themselves who decided which routes and schedules to cover. They determined the value of that. The people who didn’t want to do nightwatch duty were the ones who wanted a change. They would pay cash and the nightwatchmen would then just become employees with no control over routes/etc. So the only neighborhoods covered were now the wealthy neighborhoods. Same with a militia based army v a standing/mercenary army. Different decision makers re when/where/v whom war happens.
Alaska gets the money because of oil - not for UBI. Do you people if magically we switched from oil, they would still get that?
Since you can't budget for a CD, your own words, it makes it useless because you can't depend on it. Also, do you only get a CD if the Federal government has a surplus? What about State government?
Finally, democrats will state it's racist because minorities don't have land, or the poor illegals or you'll have big companies buying land.
A land value tax can be applied universally, at any given state. Yes, some states have loads of oil, so they can get filthy rich from royalties alone. The reason why Alaska puts part of those royalties into a permanent fund is to have dividends even after they run out of oil. That’s a reasonable approach, and oil-rich countries (Norway, even Qatar) does this too.
Yes, you aren’t supposed to “depend” on CD. It should just be a bonus. It's not an UBI, and it shouldn't, certainly not at first (say, first 2-3 generations after implementation). Of course, a state might grow its permanent funds if they run them long enough. As for the surplus: the original proponents of LVT&CD were talking about surpluses, as the basis of CD. I’m afraid if we tell the state to redistribute all that’s left, then there will be nothing left. Ideally, a state constitutionally dictates the portion of tax revenues going into CD, or into permanent fund that pays CD. It might even differentiate between the sources of revenue e.g. those from non-renewable resources MUST go 100% into a fund, while those derived from LVT can be distributed as is (say, 1% of all LVT revenues). As for the authority: the federal state would derive LVT from federal lands, while the state would do the same for state lands. Generally speaking, if you’re living in a unitary state, then the LVT is collected by the central gov’t only (e.g. Singapore).
As for “democrats”: fuck them. But I don’t really get what you’re saying. Not having a land is a “good thing” in an LVT state, since you have no tax burden.
You will own nothing and be happy!
That's the slogan of the globalists i.e. the Soros-types of Davos. Who are supporters of UBI, among other things (e.g. eating the bugs, living in pods, owning nothing).
Yet these evil overlords have nothing to do with the ideas of Thomas Paine, Henry George, Fred Foldvary. I'm really sorry if you can't differentiate between these two vastly different schools of thought.
Let's see if you can explain the logic of the Georgian Land Value Tax in one simple comment.
Well, you've already presented your firm opposition to the subject. So... why bother? And I'll be honest: it's not an easy subject, certainly not reducible into a single comment, and even if I could achieve the impossible, there are thousands of pages available on the topic on the internet. Studies and articles from people who had already explained it much much better than I could, along with all the math and graphs one could desire. There's even a dude running a blog with headed by the title "A 100 reasons to support LVT" or something. Plus, you've got a handful of IRL examples so you could check out those ones too. But if you hate the idea, then you hate the idea...
And how is a LVT any less immoral than any other tax?
Fetch, I don't need to be penalized because someone built something near my house so it's value went up. Seems to me that that would also encourage hardcore nimbyism.
Because it is inherently not-immoral to tax something that is unearned i.e. which is NOT the product of your spent time, effort and investment, or capital and labor expenditures (if you prefer). That "something" being taxed is called economic rent, and it has many different forms. Sane economists and libertarians only oppose taxing something that is earned, because it is inherently unjust AND inefficient to tax (and thus reduce) labor, ROI and wealth.
Another pow is that land speculators who hold land only to later on benefit from its unearned gains are actively damaging the economy (and through it, all citizens) by intentionally misusing the spot (as opposed to doing something productive). Hence, they ought to compensate the people, or ought to do something productive, or ought to sell it to someone who will utilize it appropriately. In other words, you are penalized because (even just by living in your home) you are betting on capitalizing on your investment, and of course you would be happy to take that additional unearned income upon sale (and frankly, none can blame you for that). This wouldn't be inherently immoral if it wouldn't stifle growth of the economy... but it does.
Besides, you forget that you are already paying taxes, just all the bad ones. If you'd not have to pay a 100 units per year in bad taxes (which is the goal of all LVT proponents) but then you happen to have to pay only 80 units per year then why would this be a bad thing? Of course, if you happen to have to pay 120 units, then there's always another option available to you, a much easier option than in the current tax system: you can downgrade your tax burden by moving away to a cheaper spot.
"Because it is inherently not-immoral to tax something that is unearned i.e. which is NOT the product of your spent time, effort and investment, or capital and labor expenditures (if you prefer)."
So theft is justified if you think so? My heirs are subject to your bullshit claims of taxation after I spent time and effort to deliver that property to them as inheritance?
And how is the "value" determined, absent a market-based selling price?
You seem to be:
Full.
Of.
Shit.
FOAD, asshole.
Free money makes people work less! This isn't new, studies done during Johnson's War on Poverty established this 60 years ago.
This isn’t new, studies done during
Johnson’s War on PovertyCaesar's 'daily bread' program established this602,000 years agoFTFY
I like to see a bit more granular examination of the data before I throw out the idea UBI with the bathwater. People worked less but what were they working before? If they had two jobs and opted to drop one to spend time with family members, that may be good. I like to see examples of people who made best use of the extra money and the worst use and see what factors influenced the difference in use of the money. I still like the idea of giving people more control over the money they are given, rather than having it go to a bureaucratic system that eats up a percentage.
The granular examination reveals they were all working one job and they just called in sick more often to spend the day smoking weed.
Actually, not the case. I did a quick review of the paper and it is not as negative as this article, although this article does capture the major findings. What the authors did find is that there were differences. People with bachelor's degrees seemed to do better, females did reduce work as much as males, and young people were more inclined to use funds to get more education for better job.
I don't think there is one answer to addressing poverty and helping people and I think the UBI should still be considered in the mix.
If you pay people to do fuck-all, a lot of them will do exactly that. Just look at the dismal condition of any group of people who've been on the dole for multiple generations, from the chavs in the UK to the meth-addled hillbillies in Kentucky, to the drunks on the res in the western USA.
-jcr
Or the Kennedy offsprings!
"We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us"; USSR well before 1989.
Was anyone expecting anything less?
The only redeeming feature of UBI is that it would be a replacement for welfare. But the money given out as UBI needs to be low enough to encourage not loafing on the dole.
For $1000 a month, I would seriously consider retiring right now. That $1000 plus SS plus 401k plus other investments is a sweet sweet deal! I mean duh!
Yeah and TDS-addled shits like this are hoping Harris wins, right, Brandyshit?
Well honk my hooter... Research shows that Socialism doesn't work.
Can we get back to a *Constitutional* USA then?
Or does the massive failure of an ideology need to destroy more first?
I dont think the lesson is that socialism doesnt work.
(it doesnt, and there's great lessons out there for that)
This is more about what kind of people are the very poorest americans and why they are there. Generally speaking.
Researchers found that giving people $1,000 every month for three years resulted in decreased productivity and earnings, and more leisure time.
Those with a 4 year old's level of understanding of human behavior TOLD the "researchers" that would be the result within SECONDS of hearing the study had been proposed.
But there was grant money to be taken by "researching" the blatantly obvious.
Let's review for the class.
There are only four ways to get things.
1. You can make things.
2. You can trade things.
3. You can beg things.
4. You can steal things.
Most of what moral people strive for is 1 and 2. Most modern people do 1 mostly in their personal lives, e.g. cooking dinner and doing laundry. And they do 2 in what they think of as jobs, i.e. exchanges of time and effort for money.
In olden times, 3 and 4 were distinct and easily recognized. BTW, a gift is a form of 3, unless it becomes formalized into exchanges, and then it becomes 2. And most people resist 4.
Until we get into modern societies and various socialist/communistic scams. Then 3 and 4 combine, and some people claim enlightened confiscation. But theft is still theft.
Until somebody grows an actual magic money tree, a UBI is socialism, defies moral liberty, and punishes those who strive for 1 and 2, you know, actually productivity.
Time isn't a thing that can be exchanged. Once it's gone, it's never coming back.
"Time isn’t a thing that can be exchanged. Once it’s gone, it’s never coming back.
The asshole trueman has made many, many imbecilic comments, but this is among the, well........
given his imbecility it's hard to claim it's his worst.
But, hey, shit-for-brains, time is exchanged for every activity you do, every day. Eating lunch? You have just traded time for another activity.
You really are a pathetic ignoramus, ain't you?
I exchange time for money five days a week, and then some.
Sounds like he's never had a job.
That time you've traded away, you'll never get it back. Even for all the money in the world.
I'd stick gifts in #2 with what your trading on is your interpersonal bonds but it falls to #3 when it starts getting demanded.
Here's your allowance, now go get a job.
The idea that some people are only 10k away from jumping into the next higher socioeconomic bracket but need government largesse to make the jump . . .
Yeah well there’s a reason that Bangladesh was rioting over government jobs/paychecks. Same exact thing for a basic income or bullshit jobs.
I read that young Bangladeshis were upset over the policy of reserving 56% of government jobs for veterans (and their relations) of the civil war in the 70s. The government scrapped the policy a few years back, but their supreme court reinstated it a month or so ago. Over a hundred protestors shot dead in the streets.
I've read you're a steaming pile of idiotic shit, and that seems valid. Did you have a point in that bullshit stream?
When you don’t earn it, you don’t respect it. When you don’t respect it, you make no effort to manage it. When you make no effort to manage it, you squander it – having taken it for granted. “Moar free stuff” is never a solution to anything.
There’s a reason so many lottery winners are broke within a few years of winning. There’s a reason why people have fancy clothes and jewelry, but their credit score is 500. There’s a reason why idiot kids have crazy debt but an impractical and pointless degree that can’t earn any money to show for it. There’s a reason why so many people are paying more juice than they are principle on their two dozen credit cards.
I hate the term the conclusion reaches, but this describes it perfectly (language):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVjoVL38O1U
"...There’s a reason so many lottery winners are broke within a few years of winning. There’s a reason why people have fancy clothes and jewelry, but their credit score is 500. There’s a reason why idiot kids have crazy debt but an impractical and pointless degree that can’t earn any money to show for it. There’s a reason why so many people are paying more juice than they are principle on their two dozen credit cards..."
Those who do not understand this do not understand the base concept of 'personal responsibility'; it is YOUR job to feed yourself and, if you CHOSE to have children, it is YOUR job to feed and care for them.
trueman (above) sees earning money to feed your family as an optional activity; have to admit, I have no idea where such imbecilic views come from.
Was trueman raised in a family where his every desire was satisfied with a credit-card charge, or is he simply a fucking pile of ignorant lefty shit?
""the base concept of ‘personal responsibility’;""
Seems some liberals can't even blame the kidnappers using the kidnapped as human shield.
Giving people a big raise causes them to work less overtime. In other news, water is wet. However, it doesn't fundamentally change who they are.
The entrepreneurism quip is especially laughable. Households don't start businesses when they have an income of $40k per year. That's nowhere near the capital you need. Especially if you know that the bonus is temporary. At best they put it in savings. At worst they get involved in an MLM pyramid scheme. The average case is that it probably gets spent on household expenses, repairs, upgrades, and luxuries.
The problem with UBI is not how people will spend it. People will do what they want.
It's the sustainability of money provided.
How would a real UBI program affect income tax receipts?
One thing always (ALWAYS) left out of UBI experiments is the U(niversal). As in everyone gets it whether they need it or not. This trades off the need to have everyone prove they should get it, removes perverse incentives to refuse to earn income that might make you ineligible, etc. Basically, treating UBI as just cash welfare (more correctly a minimum basic income).
In discussions of UBI, there will be the inevitable "artists can make art" sort of comment.
I'm reminded of Speaker Pelosi's comments on the passage of "Obamacare":
“This is what our founders had in mind--ever expanding opportunity for people...You want to be a photographer or a writer or a musician, whatever -- an artist, you want to be self-employed, if you want to start a business, you want to change jobs, you no longer are prohibited from doing that because you can’t have access to health care, especially because you do not want to put your family at risk,” she said.
Every time I stumble into a discussion of universal basic income, it's always people wanting to be artists or poets who are advocating for it the hardest. For example, California's got a new stipend for artists...The Yerba Buena Center for the Arts explains that artists are “essential drivers of economic well-being.” in touting it.
Why is that? It's because making money as an artist or poet is damn hard...people will simply not pay for art that does not move them (or at least represent a decent investment because it will move someone else down the road). So lots and lots of failed or wanna-be artists can sit around and produce their craptastic pieces? No thank you.
I always ask: "Will I finally be able to pursue my dream of playing basketball professionally without worrying about health care or basic income?"
People look at me and realize I suck at basketball, I'm barely 5' 10" and clearly have no more than 2.5 inch vertical leap..."But you suck at basketball, no one is going to pay you to play basketball"..."You'll never be able to make a living playing basketball, you ain't got game (you simply have no talent)."
Exactly! But no one ever says "With UBI, old out-of-shape short white guys can finally realize their dreams of playing basketball full time."
The motte of UBI proponents is that it will increase productivity. Their bailey is that it will lead to more consumption and leisure.
Proving that the bailey is the reality is a strike against the motte, but not against the bailey. Those who want the bailey are undeterred.
This shouldn't surprise anybody. Back in the 1960s, a very large study of a "negative income tax" was funded by Congress. The negative income tax was, essentially, a complicated UBI.
Anyway, the study found exactly the same thing, and the negative income tax was abandoned.
All I ask if the US Government insists on launcing a UBI is enough warning so that I can re-invest a significant portion of my current savings into a cannabis grow operation and whatever publicly traded company is best positioned to benefit from the sale of "DUB" wheels for compact cars.