Dobbs Recentered Women in the Abortion Debate
Two years after the Dobbs decision, Americans are increasingly concerned with how abortion bans affect women with wanted pregnancies.

Today marks two years since the U.S. Supreme Court issued a decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, overturning Roe v. Wade and the legal standards that had governed American abortions for decades. A lot can be said about the impacts of this decision, from direct changes to state abortion laws to its effect on politics, failure to actually reduce the number of abortions, or opening up new avenues in the drug war. But today I want to focus on one change that is on some level obvious but often goes unremarked upon: the way Dobbs shifted the focus of the abortion debate back to women's lives, not just the lives of any potential offspring that they're carrying.
Two years after the Dobbs decision, Americans seem increasingly concerned with how abortion bans affect the physical health of women—including women with wanted pregnancies.
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Pre-Dobbs Discourse
For as long as I can remember, abortion discourse in the U.S. was focused on fetuses and zygotes. When did they attain personhood? When could they feel things? How early did their hearts beat? At what point were they viable outside the womb?
The most common slogans of the pro-life movement focused on the fetus, telling us that "abortion is murder" and "abortion stops a beating heart." To the extent that women factored into this debate on the pro-life side, it was generally as victims and dupes—tricked by evil "abortionists" and Planned Parenthood staffers into going against their own moral intuition or best interests. We saw a lot of focus on regulations like pre-abortion ultrasounds and waiting periods, pushed under the premise that women who got abortions didn't understand what they were doing, or hadn't taken the time to think it through.
On the pro-choice side (and, yes, I realize these binary labels are quite imperfect), we heard a lot about women's need for choices—to decide when and if they would become mothers, to control their own reproductive fate. We heard about the many substantial reasons why women choose abortion, and the need to destigmatize this choice.
The potential for risk to women's health and lives if abortion was illegal was certainly part of this discussion, but arguably not the central focus of discourse about why abortion should be legal. And when the focus was on danger to women's lives, it was more often framed as a matter of women put at risk by illegal abortion attempts.
Dobbs shifted all this.
Centering Risks to Pregnant Women
In a Dobbs world, the physical dangers of pregnancy and the need for abortion to counter these dangers have become perhaps the most central theme in advocacy against abortion bans.
We've been hearing more and more about women with serious and sometimes life-threatening pregnancy complications who have been denied abortions, forced to wait until their condition worsened before a doctor felt comfortable declaring an abortion OK, or required to go through a complicated court process in order to be granted permission to get an abortion.
Abortion as treatment for emergency complications during pregnancy is at the center of a Supreme Court case that should have a decision coming very soon.
Countless articles have detailed the way abortion bans have negatively impacted pregnancy care—sometimes bringing women "to the brink of death" (as one ABC News article put it)—and care for women who have miscarried.
I've recently been interviewing people who describe themselves as pro-life or personally opposed to abortion but against abortion bans. The things that come up again and again are the fears that these bans risk the health and lives of women for whom abortion is a medical necessity, and interfere with decisions that should be between women and their doctors. The people I've talked to (whose stories I'll tell in a future article) believe that work to decrease the number of elective abortions must come through means other than abortion bans, as the bans present too much risk to pregnant women—and sometimes very much wanted babies, too.
Even though bans tend to contain exceptions for emergency situations, hospitals and doctors can be anxious and overly cautious when interpreting what is and isn't an emergency, leaving pregnant women with complications in perilous situations.
A Paradigm Shifted
Reproductive freedom advocates have long warned that things like this would happen, but hypotheticals don't tend to make headlines or grip people's consciousness. The fact that there are now documented stories of things like this happening seems to have tipped the scales mightily.
A new CBS News poll found that the message that abortion bans put pregnancy care at risk is resonating with a majority of Americans. Some 67 percent said they are concerned that abortion bans will mean that pregnant women may be more at risk, and 61 percent were concerned that reproductive care may be more difficult to access.
Bans putting pregnant women at risk was a concern for 91 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents, and 41 percent of Republicans. Bans making reproductive care difficult to access was a concern for 88 percent of Democrats, 59 percent of independents, and 33 percent of Republicans.
Americans are faced with the reality of who will be punished or put in danger by abortion bans, and it's not just the worst caricatures of callous and irresponsible women. It's not even just those who choose an abortion under broadly sympathetic circumstances. It's anyone who becomes pregnant. It's women with wanted pregnancies. It's women already dealing with the grief of a miscarriage or a fetus with fatal problems. Those who have done everything normatively right and still wind up facing a choice between their own life and continuing a pregnancy that may not even be viable.
Circumstances like those don't account for anywhere near the majority of people seeking abortions, to be sure. But the last couple years have shown us that they're not incredibly rare, either. And the more Americans hear about women in these situations being forced to jump through hoops to get an abortion, or being brought to death's door before they're allowed care that could save their lives, the more the reality of what abortion bans actually mean sinks in—and it seems to be making people rethink what these bans actually mean.
More Sex & Tech News
• New legislation would repeal parts of the Comstock Act, a Victorian-era law that criminalizes mailing anything that could be used to induce an abortion or anything "obscene, lewd, lascivious, indecent, filthy or vile." But while the bill's text has not yet been released, its sponsors say it would only repeal the parts of the law that apply to abortion.
• To provide new AI-enabled services, companies like Apple, Microsoft, and Google "need more persistent, intimate access to our data than before," notes New York Times columnist Brian X. Chen. Will people feel comfortable handing that over?
• Engadget explores the people taking Meta to small claims court over the deletion of their Facebook and Instagram accounts.
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I think all but the most hardened partisans could agree (even if not happy) with a viability standard (perhaps 20 weeks) and exceptions for a woman's life being in danger. Rape and Incest should be handled under the 20 week test, and a dead or unviable fetus found at, say, 30 weeks handled under the viability test. Hey, if you lose your job or your baby daddy walks out at 30 weeks, then you have the adoption option. Viability is a fetus that can survive on its own or through the voluntary assistance of others.
Viability is a fetus that can survive on its own or through the voluntary assistance of others.
Does that mean the number of weeks decreases as medical technology improves?
It’s the price you pay for technology.
This is why the standard should be sentience, not viability.
Medical advances have lowered when viability can be achieved by voluntary assistance from others. Is sentience any more anchored?
I've seen claims of anywhere from 18 to 30 weeks, and even those argue for 12 months after birth.
12 months? There are grown adults in these comments who are barely sentient.
A small measure of self awareness from you for once.
Yes, we’re all well aware of your existence.
Sentience is far earlier than 18 weeks. Democrats just like to devalue human life to suit their agenda. Look at how they treat Jews and Asians. Look at how they’ve always treated blacks.
And this is the same party that can’t define a woman and believes men can give birth. Oh, and they also got everything wrong about COVID.
So there is no reason to accept anything they Wuv etc say about biological science, or anything else.
Sentience is far earlier than 18 weeks.
citation needed
Give me a citation that says there isn’t.
No, that's not how this works. You have made an assertion. You are responcible for proving such an assertion. We are not responcible to disprove it.
No, no, no. Creech ,add the original assertion. That doesn’t make it the status quo. So I don’t owe you anything. You’re the one with the premise. YOU prove it.
Boom, nailed it! In what despicable medical gulag is the abortion “right “. Considered healthcare. It is factually, “Deathcare”. PP is simply a taxpayer, leftist supported vivisection provider. Racist at its origin, still going strong with the support of death dealers in dem party of satan.
PP is not a “Women’s Health “ provider. It exists for one reason only: the gruesome and exceptionally painful live dismemberment of a human baby , a life! PP might hand out some condons, might test for STDs and might do some mammograms, but those are a camouflage for the devilish and gruesome deeds they gladly and proudly provide. Himmler would be envious. Not to mention, M Sanger a Nazi disciple.
Not with my money!
Are you saying that many of the leaders of our nation qualify for being an abortion?
Biden is clearly not self aware. He's barely self propelled.
So do you support infanticide or a total abortion ban?
There is no way to determine sentience on an individualized basis prior to birth. So your standard inevitably leads to making infanticide legal in at least some cases, or a total abortion ban. Again, because your standard is something not capable of individualized determination prior to birth, there is no possible middle ground here.
There is no way to determine sentience of anyone other than oneself.
That would make sentience essentially untestable through the scientific method. Independent verification is essential to how scientific knowledge is built.
I, sure you want it that way, but no.
Read "Little Fuzzy" by H. Beam Piper. The story puts the question of sapience to the test in a court setting. Some very interesting arguments.
That would make sentience essentially untestable through the scientific method.
That's correct—it is.
I think, therefore I am. The rest of you mother fuckers I am not sure about.
Your not being so sure doesn’t grant you the right to murder anyone. Including babies.
Prove you are sapient, hell prove you are sentient. Prove you aren't a bot or sock even.
Ok, I’ll play your game. According to your premise, I’m justified in executing you if you can’t prove your salience to me.
I don't accept your "logic" that life begins with a fertilized egg.
You watch too much Star Trek. Sentience is simply self awareness. Most animals have that to one degree or another.
Sapience is what human beings have that seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
If sapience is all you need to show to not be killed then pork producers may be out of jobs.
"Sentience is simply self awareness."
As the term is used in science fiction to distinguish people aliens from non-people aliens, it's more awareness of self.
But the point stands. There are terran animals that meet standards for sentience. If all it takes is proof of self awareness to make taking its life murder then we will have to admit the vegans are right.
100%
So I can abort Biden, kamala, kjp, Sotomayor, and the entire squad?
Sure.
How the F do you determine "sentience" from a fetus? Or an infant, for that matter? Do you know how that sounds?
Sorry, I can't support any standard that disincents medical advancements. Sarcasmic raises the key failing of viability as a legal standard.
Ultimately, we do have to pick a threshold for "personhood". And whatever standard we pick, it will be arbitrary. There is nothing in either science or ethics that can define a bright line.
In the end, we're all just clumps of cells -- Sam Harris.
I’ve been saying that here for ages now.
and as simple clumps of cells should either of you take upon who lives and who dies?
It’s pretty simple. We have laws against murder. This should extend to developing infants. I’m not sure why this is such a shocking and confusing concept to so many.
Then what about hogs? They are very smart and may be able to pass sentience tests that a newborn baby won't be able to. Will we have to stop eating pork because it's even more capable than an infant?
Hogs aren’t human. They don’t have human DNA. You keep trying all these bizarre semantical arguments, and they keep failing.
Abortion is murder. Case closed.
Fire up the Woodchippers! wrote developing infants, not sentient infants. Bacon remains on the menu.
I see. You get to define all the lines then.
You’re flailing desperately. You just can’t fathom the idea that it’s wrong to murder a baby.
It is wrong to murder a baby that is out of the mother, breathing on its own, and both loved and wanted by the parents. Yes.
A fertilized egg is a potential baby assuming everything goes right. Which it doesn't often enough that women who want a baby don't share the news of their pregnancy until the second trimester when the fertilized egg is out of the proverbial woods.
You want to redefine life from actual in front of you self propelled and self aware to any lump of cells that may someday grow up to be a person, something you insist is defined by a very narrow definition, after first widening the definition to include a bacterial infection.
Let's say a woman has a chimpanzee fertilized egg implanted in her uterus. It grows and is born becoming a baby chimp. However since it came from a human woman is it now a human? Must we extend it all the rights of a human simply because it came from the right vagina? After all, it is genetically dissimilar from the mother, maybe a fraction of a percentage more than the typical baby, but exactly what genes and what percentage are you insisting makes a human? Can you prove in a court of law that one genetic code is a human and another is a chimpanzee without putting a jury and the judge asleep?
All this is true - so, IMO, it behooves us to put those lines fairly conservatively, as a matter of tradition, for our own benefit - lest someone decide to draw a line liberally that leaves us on the wrong side of it.
We did pick an arbitrary line. One that was accepted by the majority of medical professionals & that also had cultural relevance . That was first trimester standard in Roe v Wade before the bible-thumpers, wingnuts, and authoritarians blew it up with their nonsense. We had a compromise between opinions: those who wanted it couldn't be interfered within the time limit , those that didn't want anything to do with it were not forced to have it.
Holy crap, that is almost Libertarian or something.
We know a lot more about a developing infant now than we did 50 years ago.
The bible thumpers blew it up because the aborto-freaks wanted abortion up to and past birth.
They wanted the 'time limit' to be infinite.
That's not libertarian or something.
The standard is being born. The US Constitution limits citizenship to people who have been born. And Judaism has had that standard for thousands of years.
“The US Constitution limits citizenship to people who have been born”
So it’s your contention that non citizens may be murdered at will?
Well, we can pick the part in all pre-med biology textbooks that says the zygote is the first step in the human development process.
Thats a Luddite way of looking at it.
Does that mean the number of weeks decreases as medical technology improves?
Possibly, yes. But not necessarily.
And just to make sure we're all clear on analogous situationalisms, technology has improved so you no longer have a right to bear certain arms, despite the 2nd amendment, something that actually IS in the constitution.
I dispute the claim that technological improvements is the reason behind not being allowed to own certain firearms. Think about what was happening in 1968 and then try again.
You're absolutely joking me, right? I'm not allowed to own a fully automatic weapon. I'm not allowed to own a semi automatic rifle. This is ENTIRELY based on the technological improvements over flintlock and cap-and-ball. The firearms technical labilities are explicitly cited as the legislative reason for them being illegal.
How many video links of various public speakers, politicians and comedians do I have to post showing you that X technology is not required for hunting or target shooting?
I’m not allowed to own a fully automatic weapon.
Not totally true. You can if you get a FFL and can afford to shell out five figures for a single firearm.
I’m not allowed to own a semi automatic rifle.
You sure about that? Ruger 10/22 is a semi-automatic rifle.
The firearms technical labilities are explicitly cited as the legislative reason for them being illegal.
Stated reasons (excuses) and actual reasons are not necessarily the same.
Not totally true. You can if you get a FFL and can afford to shell out five figures for a single firearm.
This nitpick utterly ignores my point, which still stands, rock-bottomed and copper sheathed. I am not allowed to own a fully automatic weapon unless I get a special license. The same could be done for certain kinds of abortion restrictions. And the reason I have to get special dispensation from the government is because of the destructive power of that weapon, entirely underwritten by technology.
You sure about that? Ruger 10/22 is a semi-automatic rifle.
Once again, you're literally reenforcing my point. the 10/22 only remains legal because it relies on rimfire technology, even while having all the other technological aspects of an illegal firearm: Semi auto, detachable magazine.
The ENTIRE premise is based on technological attributes.
Sorry the laws in your state suck.
How many video links of various public speakers, politicians and comedians do I have to post showing you that X technology is not required for hunting or target shooting?
The 2A says nothing about hunting and target shooting. Instead it talks about a free state. Free from what? Free from overbearing government, like the one they rebelled against. Curbing the ability of the people to fight back and secure a free state is the actual reason for unconstitutional legislation limiting the right to keep and bear arms. Not technological advancement.
Again, what was happening in this country in 1968? Or 1934?
The 2A says nothing about hunting and target shooting. Instead it talks about a free state. Free from what? Free from overbearing government, like the one they rebelled against.
*facepalm*
The US Constitution authorizes Congress to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal, turning privately owned naval vessels with a selection of cannon to become privateers and attack the commerce of foreign nations. Those same cannon can be used to shell coastal towns and cause massive devastation. They were the Weapons of Mass Destruction of their day.
Thus the writers and signatories of the Constitution fully expected private persons or groups to own weapons of mass destruction. Target shooting don't enter into it lad. The ability for private citizens to litteraly make war on enemies of the US is written down for all to see. The Second Amendment was written to make it clear that weapons of war were to be available to citizens.
Comedians? Seriously? Do any of them have a background in Constitutional studies?
Are you literally pointing out my argument is correct by making a principled argument against gun control writ large?
Fine, let's overturn all restrictions on abortion the moment we overturn all restrictions on firearms.
Let's see who blinks first.
The right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution. The right to commit unrestricted infanticide, or any form of infanticide is not.
If you want these things to be equal, there is an amendment process.
Yet again, you ignore the 9th and 10th amendments. Powers not granted... etc...
There is no right to commit murder against any age demographic of humanity. There is a right to bear arms. Case closed.
You’re just trying to obfuscate.
Go for it. No gun laws, no abortion laws, no drug laws, no booze laws, no education laws... I'm game. How about you? Are you for individual liberty or aren't you.
I think you've missed my point. I'm not making an argument for how things should be, I'm making an argument for how things ARE. When one accepts restrictions to a constitutional right that's clearly enshrined in the constitution, don't be shocked or surprised if a political force starts to put restrictions on the thing you hold dear-- especially when they're not even enshrined in the constitution.
Ultimately, there are a LOT of parallels that can be made in the abortion restriction and gun control fights. Don't be shocked when the forest of restrictions and regulations for one, starts to look a lot like the other.
So you’re against laws prohibiting murder?
Define murder. Include a lump of cells that might someday if everything goes right be a live human being and exclude the pork I had for supper.
Clump of cells? That includes very form of life that is composed of more than one cell.
Why don’t you admit that you think it’s ok to murder babies out of convenience? At least I could respect the honesty of your evil. Instead you engage in torture mental gymnastics. Desperately trying to sell some bizarre semantical argument.
Bullshit. You can own either. There are no states where they are illegal, including NY, CA, NJ, HI and MA, the worst.
Bullshit.
That's fucked up. Don't understand how it passes the Commerce Clause.
Divergent DNA is the only standard that should be used.
Humans may all share DNA, but there is no doubt that it is divergent, and moreso, we can measure that divergence. If it was too divergent, it would cease to be human.
All animals share DNA. We aren't all that divergent from a squirrel. Are the Vegans right?
Are the Vegans right?
No.
Sincerely,
Lions, Tigers, and Bears
Cute.
Most of this article deals with wanted pregnancies and the conditions Dobbs places on those pregnancies. So, viability is not really an issue. If the fetus is viable and the woman's health is endangered the doctors can use medical or surgical methods to take the baby who will have to finish developing in an incubator. The real issue is what happen when a woman's life or the fetus's is in danger and the fetus is not viable and so the woman and the doctors must make the difficult decision. I believe we have to give the woman and the doctors clear room to make that decision.
Which is fine. I think all but the most hardened pro-lifers and pro-choicers would agree.
ENB, however, is using this as a wedge issue to push for the removal of all restrictions - the partisan pro-choice position.
A ban/restrictions on elective abortions could be separate from bans/restrictions of 'medically necessary' abortions. And either way we would need to recognize that there will be doctors that are going to stand to one side or the other - refuse to perform a legal, medically necessary, abortion due to fears that its too close to the line on one side while the other has doctors that will exaggerate or even lie to cover up a clearly illegal abortion.
Not true. Pro-lifers have spent decades painting third trimester abortions as brutal murder solely because the PROCEDURE at that late date is brutal. There is almost zero recognition - and certainly zero public recognition - that close to all (maybe 90-95%) of third trimester abortions are not done by choice/whim/all the shit you call 'partisan' but because the fetus is no longer viable. Meaning - the fetus is almost certainly going to die regardless.
I would challenge your assertion about the reason for many 3rd trimester abortions is fetal viability, but rather is fetal imperfection.
For those who discovered something (ie had maternity care), they discovered it with the 20 week ultrasound scan. While most come out of that scan with only information about what color to paint the nursery, that is NOT why the scan is done and it is NOT what leads to abortions. Except probably among the people like you who will abort the kid if there are questions about whether the kid will have a proclivity for pronouns. Nor is the medical community viewing this scan as an opportunity for bespoke eugenics. They are looking for things like - anencephaly, holoprosencephaly, hydranencephaly, iniencephaly, cystic hygroma with hydrops, cystadenomatoid malformation of the lung with hydrops, renal agenesis, bilateral renal dysplasia, lethal dwarfing syndromes, etc.
For those who don't receive maternity care by this point - overwhelmingly from states that are 'pro-life' and particularly self-righteous about it. This is the second biggest group of third trimester abortions. And to that I say - fuck you you 'pro-lifers'. Your opinion of someone else's fetus is not a sign of high moral rectitude if you don't even give a shit about the mother.
That's how you know they come from a Christian point of view on this and their real justification is "because god gave it a soul". They don't give a shit about the woman. One of them even said the mother is irrelevant. Women don't matter to them. They can be enslaved, owned and forced to do things like a dog. They are property of a man by their philosophy.
They say, just don't have sex." Like that is a real option. How about to deal with inflation, just don't eat. It's a primal drive and denying it messes people up real bad. Just look at Catholic priests and nuns to see what suppressing sex drive does to a person.
This is the scratchiest of all straw men I have seen today.
You just elaborated on my point. Women with imperfect babies can and will abort them in the 3rd trimester, if that is when they find out about the baby's condition.
I'd lose to see a single thing to back up that claim.
About 90-95% of late trimester abortions not being for "choice".
Look at the illogic of the original premise. A woman is told her child's mortality might be markedly shorter than normal due to some diagnosed condition. Solution? Kill the unborn child even sooner???
Many of 3rd trimester abortions are performed because the baby has some sort of defect; it is not a perfect baby. That has nothing to do with the mother's health.
If a woman's health is at risk in the 3rd trimester, then they induce labor early and attempt to save the baby, since the chances of surviving a premature birth are very good. There is no reason to kill a healthy baby in the 3rd trimester to preserve the mother's life.
>I think all but the most hardened pro-lifers and pro-choicers would agree.
Please respond to what I wrote, not what you are hallucinating.
Read the laws that are passed on abortion . They already have exceptions for health and life of mother and sometimes rape and incest. Therein lies the demarcation between elective abortion and presumed medically justified abortions.
The problem with the Texas women is that based on their law, they are attempting to force an elective abortion into the definition of a medically justified one.
Sure they are. Your kind just tend to cover it up. One only has to look at the grisly career of Kermit Gosnell. So many government officials kept that quiet for over a decade. All to protect their abortion agenda.
Face it. You and your fellow travelers are a bunch of murderous degenerate ghouls that make semantical arguments to justify these things. You also lie.
If any of you believe the things you say, Gosnell would have been put away very early in his career. But this what you leftists really want.
In practice the so called pro lifers do not agree. There needs to be no restriction on medically necessary abortions, but today there are.
That is super rare, despite the lies of the democrat narrative. Democrats don’t want abortion to be safe and rare. They want it to be plentiful, unsafe, and government paid.
Government paid, for sure. The rest varies.
Not much. The left is largely a death cult. Unrestricted abortion is just one of many of the more extreme expressions of their degenerate beliefs.
No it is consistent with small government. Restrictions on abortion are Big Government.
So your contention is that prohibitions on murder are indicative of ‘big government’?
Is it murder when a fertilized egg fails to nest properly in the uterus? I mean, if it's a person from the moment the sperm hits the egg then it not seating properly and falling out with the menstrual ejection means the baby died. Is that a murder?
None of that has anything to do with it. You’re just puking out irrelevant sophistry. Does that usually work for you? Even if it does, it won’t here. So you might want to cut back on that that.
That's a natural process, clown.
Basically, the status quo at the beginning of the RvW era.
And we were. For decades. The pro-lifers couldn't get traction when things were like that. But the pro-choicers had to keep pushing - they're all hardened partisans, after all - and demand on-demand abortion, federally funded, up to birth (its a woman's choice, after all), no say by the father (just pay for your clump of cells, donor), and then started pushing the idea of *post-birth* abortion access.
That was too far and energized the middle enough that the USSC (which doesn't lead, it interprets law only when the cultural signals are clear - hence why gay marriage was suddenly ruled legal after years of them not touching it) 'pounced' with a case brought before it.
They're 'activist judges' when they try to interpret the law ahead of cultural consensus.
If pushback against the hardened partisans demands among us proles wasn't clear, even the 'conservative court' we have now wouldn't have dared touch the subject.
Hardened Partisan: anyone working in opposition to your goals.
Activist Judges: judges who don't rule in your favor.
Not so. Several recent cases have come up through the courts and gotten to SCOTUS for a 9-0 decision. You have to be an idiot judge to have your decision overturned by SCOTUS 9-0. When that happens, the lower courts should all have to go for remedial training, and 2-strikes, and you are out.
Dobbs did absolutely NOTHING to change Post-Viable legislation.
ZERO difference between RvW and Dobbs Post-Viable.
Murder is a State Charge and is precisely why both rulings left that grey area to the State's. Dobbs just made 'faith' (imagination) based ?life? a State Power on 'moral' grounds.
Can't really deal with viability unless/until you deal with the costs of preemie care.
At 22/23 weeks, the odds of a fetus survival are 5% or so.
At 24 weeks, the odds of fetus survival cross 50%, the preemie costs are well over $250k and up to $1 million; the maternal costs are $20,000+.
At 30 weeks, the odds of fetus survival rise to maybe 90%, the preemie costs are still $100k-250k; the maternal costs are $10,000 or so.
At near-term but still preemie (say 37 weeks), the preemie costs are $10,000 minimum and the maternal costs are $5,000 but the maternal mortality/risks rise the longer the child is carried to term.
Adoption happens AFTER release from hospital. Not upon delivery into neonatal ICU.
Your numbers are bullshit. I have a close friend who is a practicing NNP, and partner in a medical practice the runs the NICU at four hospitals. We regularly discuss neo natal technological capabilities and they’re way beyond what you’re talking about.
You’re just spouting democrat talking points. As usual.
Since you're a hardened partisan and my son was born a bit premature, I think it was three weeks, and he spent a week in NICU I will say his numbers on cost are low. I saw the bill, it was a horrendous amount of money. Unless you anti abortion types are ready to pony up for NICU costs then shut your fucking whore mouths.
Most so called pro lifers want to cancel the health insurance of tens of millions of Americans.
Another good point. If you say the baby must live then why aren't you paying for the medical care so the baby will get all it's nutritional supplements and the mother will be in good health? Why not pay for the post natal care? Why not pay for the delivery?
The truth is these religious fanatics don't care if the woman dies while giving birth and the child dies five minutes after the mother. As long as she was properly punished for the sin of sex out of wedlock.
Most so called pro-abortionists want to force health insurance entitlements at others expense but only after birth of course.
The hypocrisy is so obvious on both sides.
It's blatantly obvious Pro-Life was rooted in the left.
So everyone else has to pay your bills, or you’re entitled to commit infanticide?
Nah. You and your wife decided to fuck. You child was the result. Your child has certain rights. One of them is the right to not be murdered. And parents have no legal right to murder their child.
Case closed. Feel free to thank me for educating you.
You have ZERO proof to establish your so called ‘infanticide’ case outside of your own imaginative propaganda filled head.
THAT is the problem.
Pro-Life is literally a demonstration on how true the “Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie until the Lie becomes truth” phrase is. They are literally bound and determined to LIE that ?baby? into existence against all odds.
What does that have to do with what I wrote?
And the so called pro lifers are unwilling to provide for the cost of that medical care.
^EXACTLY. They want ‘interest’ in other people’s pregnancy but they have no ‘interest’ in paying (*earning*) for it. The leftard mentality on the subject couldn't possibly be anymore obvious.
"At 22/23 weeks" ????????????????
That's entirely off-subject.
How much does it cost to 'save' life at 1-week?
Oh yeah; NOT POSSIBLE. Stupid Pro-Life nutjobs.
Another pathetic attempt by ENB selling abortion , this time by tying abortion on demand (till birth right ENB?) to a women's life with an unviable fetus. Sorry but not seeing any factual evidence a woman was refused life saving care to a failed pregnancy. Another way to create a straw man.
Contraception is widely available. What is in short supply are people NOT taking accountability for their actions. Sex might be really enjoyable BUT its purpose in nature is procreation. Getting sick of the cosmo wokes at Reason who live in DC or NYC with their BS liberal art degrees, sipping latte with their friends and having a smoke out back and whining about how uncouth real libertarians are.
New Law: Anyone caught ‘joy riding’ in their car waive the ‘right’ to their own body and is required to donate their body organs for any/all victims of a vehicular accident (gotta save life ya know at any expense). Isn’t it about time people started taking responsibility for their actions!!! /s
>>Dobbs shifted the focus of the abortion debate back to women's lives, not just the lives of any potential offspring that they're carrying.
the focus will never be on who is already born.
Ah yes, abortion _now_ is suddenly a women's issue.
There was no constitutional justification for Roe v Wade. None. Now are there constitutional justifications for allowing women to cross state lines to get one? I certainly think so. At least absent language being added to prohibit it.
Exactly. The Dobbs decision didn't implement a national abortion policy, or change the existing policy, it acknowledged that the Roe v. Wade decision was judicial overreach, and the Constitution grants no power to the federal government to establish any abortion policy of any kind, and hence the rules are left to the states.
Were any powers explicitly delegated to the states to restrict abortion?
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Indeed. to the states or the people. And we know thanks to 9A that there are rights other than those enumerated.
So on what basis can you claim that there is a state power to regulate abortion? The more appropriate (originalist and textualist) position is that the states have powers to act and operate in any ways that neither run contrary to the Constitution nor infringe on the rights of The People.
On what basis are the states restricted from regulating abortion? Aside from limitations prescribed in individual state constitutions.
It would depend on the various state constitutions I suppose.
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
The 13th Amendment prohibits involuntary servitude.
The power is reserved to "the people".
It's a PERSONAL issue.
Yeah, that argument is spurious. You just want to be able to murder babies for the sake of convenience.
The is ZERO act of 'murder' in a Fetal Ejection.
Pro-Life could start by actually addressing the concerned crime instead of just make-up the crime in their own heads; as well as making-up the victim in their own heads.
Your imagination doesn't create a crime against others.
"...and the Constitution grants no power to the federal government to establish any abortion policy of any kind..."
Seems Federal legislation could allow the government to establish abortion policy.
Not outlined in the Bill of Rights...only with a constitutional amendment can abortion be considered a natural right. In addition, abortion is in direct violation of the Declaration of Independance.
Once the egg is fertilized unless it was done unwillingly or your life is in danger a woman has no "reproductive rights."
God himself gave Women that ‘natural right’. You don’t think a Woman can abort ALL-ON-HER-OWN with a simple pill or other means? I'm curious how you plan on saving your 'unicorn' when the Woman commits suicide.
I submit that woman always have reproductive rights. They are exercised when they conceive a child. These anti-responsibility people are misusing the term to justify their elective abortions to cover up their personal irresponsibility.
How’s it an Individual Right when you can’t say no?
You’re riddles of power-mad desperateness go no where.
The real question is EXACTLY how is everyone’s very own pregnancy anyone else’s business to this level of extent? Nosy mofo’ers. So power-mad happy to dictate with ‘Guns’ every single persons pregnancy/body. Here's a thought; go RUN your own F'En lives and leave others alone!
Dobbs didn't say that the Constitution grants no power to the feds. It said that abortion is not an explicitly protected right under the Constitution - and that therefore a JUDICIAL creation of such a right is not valid.
True. RvW was literally legislating from the bench. That phrase is uses a lot when the Court rules in ways that crybabies don’t like, but in that case that’s what happened.
All Congress had to do was put RvW into legislation and then it would still be the law.
RvW was literally legislating from the bench.
Which is okay when Republicans do so.
I'm being serious here. When was the last time the court actually legislated from the bench? The Obamacare penaltax is the most recent that comes to my mind.
Cite? Not that you would read it. You don’t even read your own cites. You’re too busy jacking it to child rape videos. Like the ones you linked here.
Where is the federal authority to regulate abortion in the federal constitution? I mean you could go with commerce clause if you want to be unprincipled and accept Wickard as a proper decision.
Great argument against something I never said, Jesse Jr.
In my opinion most of what the federal government does goes beyond the powers granted to it in the Constitution.
Unless you read the abridged version that the government actually uses. Goes something like this:
"Congress has the power to do anything necessary and proper to promote the general welfare and regulate commerce, except for a few limitations in that pesky Bill of Rights."
Enumerated powers and unenumerated rights has been flipped. Now it's powers limited only be enumerated rights.
Congress can create additional privileges or immunities (aka rights) of citizens. Can't take away those rights without due process (ie judicial) - but we are not stuck with the limited rights that are enumerated in the Constitution/amendments and which thus also require an unachievabe supermajority to ever expand in future. That would make the Constitution a despot over the citizens.
In the case of the D's and Congress, it would involve defining a right to privacy.
Want abortion on demand to be a right? Pass a constitutional amendment or it goes to the States as it should. this obsession with avoiding accountability for your actions (not talking about rape/incest or physical health of mom) called "right to choose" is bs. You are killing a human being...period.
It has existed for years.
The 4th and 13th Amendment.
This is just like the slave-states. Lincoln just kept on having to pass more and more amendments to convince the slave-state's all people had rights.
Ironically it was the [R]'s that ensured that right (Roe v Wade).
Roe v Wade WAS NOT 'federal regulation'.
In-Fact it specifically ruled it WAS NOT 'federals' territory but a personal (Individual Right) till 'viability' then and only then ONLY the State could take interest in the matter.
Reason ran an article months ago how nobody even understood what Roe v Wade was. With all this crazy BS about it; I think they were right.
Then the [R] Trifecta could make a national abortion ban!!!!!
Why am I not surprised to see leftards and pro-lifers making this exact same argument.
They both agree the [WE] mobs should RULE people's bodily functions.
^ and we should all not want divisive and contentious issues to be a federal wedge issues because it concentrates power federally. Moving controversial issues to the states decentralizes the government.
How's SCOTUS Dobb's different than SCOTUS RvW??????
Was one a State SCOTUS ruling and the other a Federal SCOTUS?
The STUPIDITY of how the USA works is unbelievable.
Dobbs took the power from the ‘people’ and gave it to the ‘States’.
The new BS-propaganda is, "The US Constitution is ‘federal regulation’ and needs to be killed for State powers."
“There was no constitutional justification for Roe v Wade. None.”
As-if the ruling itself didn’t explain it out using precedence and words from the US Constitution. Trying reading it for once instead of grand-standing your blatant LIE of an opinion on it.
And how did Dobbs rule it not Constitutionally justified?’
And I quote DIRECTLY from the Dobbs ruling, “None of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical ********moral********* question posed by abortion.”
Funny; I never ran across the word ‘moral’ in the US Constitution.
Is nobody concerned with the right of pregnant women to use cocaine and heroin? How about just booze and cigarettes?
How about do all of that if you want but don't expect me to pay for the consequences of your bad decisions. You know, Liberty and all that?
But granting state provision of a "human right", like free health care, grants the state authority to control your life in any way that affects your health.
Does that include the ‘Gunned’ down bodily free healthcare for a fetus? Some might consider their own body a tad bit more PERSONAL than Universal Healthcare at the community hospital.
You’ve just precisely pegged why Dobbs is such a mistake.
The Power-madness of the State was just set free to do massive PERSONAL dictation. What about getting a full 8hrs of sleep and only eating veggies? /s After all; Pregnant Women aren’t people. They’re just State-owned incubators.
If the State can FORCE reproduction they can also FORCE sterilization.
I've enjoyed (not the right word but that's what I typed so I'm sticking with it) watching the debate over abortion evolve from unprincipled to more unprincipled..
For decades, it was the sole issue for R's in politicizing nominations to the SC. So much so, that R's have basically ceased to nominate non-Catholics (Gorsuch grew up and was educated Jesuit). Before Scalia, R's had nominated a couple Catholic SC justices but abortion wasn't an issue and the 'Catholic SC judge' was more a restriction than a requirement. Since Scalia, only Souter was a non-Catholic R-nominated. I suspect that it is precisely because he was viewed as 'squishy' re religion that the religious right (mostly Protestant) has looked to nominate Catholics as more 'reliable' on both abortion and 'blurring lines' re religion/state.
Likewise, for decades D's chose to do nothing in Congress to secure abortion rights legislatively - and instead chose to fearmonger the issue to get continual Prez votes. And get steamrollered when they lose and Roe gets overturned. Maybe they'll choose to really 'do something' re abortion legislatively. More likely - the issue is always just a means for cynical electioneering through fearmongering.
You are ridiculous in your thinking. Those on the right, the religious right, have always been adamant that life begins at conception. Those on the not religious right believe in the Constitution and may not agree with abortion on demand but think it’s a States Rights Issue due to Federalism and DC has no say, I’m in this camp. The States should vote and decide for themselves and if you don’t like it, move.
Those on the right, the religious right, have always been adamant that life begins at conception.
Horseshit. That is a long-standing CATHOLIC doctrine. Pre-Roe, the Conference of Catholic Bishops were the ones who organized to oppose state laws that were allowing abortion. They didn’t link up with Protestants until after Roe – with the exception of African-Americans who were pretty good at sniffing out which states abortion laws/practices were based on eugenics (eg Alabama, Mississippi, etc). After Roe, that Catholic group morphed into the National Right to Life committee which now included fundamentalist Protestants (and quickly excluded African Americans) with the goal of overturning Roe. Before Roe, the main issue for religious Protestants was schools (evolution, prayer) and taxation of churches.
Wrong. Biologists, doctors and other scientists agree that a unique separate human being with a unique set of chromosomes, is created at conception. In IVF, they claim these is a flash of light that can be seen when the sperm penetrates the egg.
It might also be religious doctrine, but finding support in religious doctrine does not negate that scientific fact.
Democrats don’t do science very well. See Fauci for more on that subject.
‘Agree’?!? ‘Scientific fact? And conflating the specifics of what happens at fertilization with the definition of 'life'? That's very sloppy.
Here’s seventeen different points when life might begin. And if you don’t have enough of a case to expand the protections of life to a LEGAL definition – via ‘personhood’ – then you are not talking about fact are you. Just opinion masquerading as a giant club to force everyone’s opinion into compliance.
I like this article – especially since it does a nice job of reminding us that we are developing beings throughout our live and our development only stops with death.
Yes, there is no Frankenstein moment where “it’s alive!”. There is however just one moment in our development to mark as “life begins now”. That is the moment the egg and sperm unite and a new distinct set of chromosomes are formed. That is called conception and is a scientific fact.
You just refuse to accept it.
Legal personhood, as you explain is quite different. Note though, that even a fetus has limited rights, as it can inherit property.
Margaret senger was a huge eugenicist.
I thought she was only about 5'6" and on the trim side.
Very true. Abortion is a state’s rights issue.
"The State" doesn't have a 'right' to my body.
And parents don’t have a right to murder the bodies of their children.
What does FORCING Women to reproduce have to do with 'murder'?
Are you seriously so delusional you think any Woman who doesn't reproduce is committing murder?
Your wild imagination doesn’t make an actual murder case.
Keep spewing BS propaganda; It’s all the Pro-Life wanna-play-god dictators have.
If you do not want a tenant in your body for the next 9 months, be responsible and use contraception.
Enter the CA mentality…. If you don’t want a squatter taking over your house; don’t make the mistake of thinking you can actually leave the house. /s
Hey; why even bother. Just write the law requiring everyone to never leave their houses.
Or in your case a law making unprotected sex a crime by the State.
False equivalence. And a bad comparison.
You choose to have sex. You don't want to be pregnant, use contraception. It is literally that easy.
You chose to leave the house. It's a perfect comparison just because the obvious goes against your propaganda filled head.
Souter—our first gay SC justice.
Curious why you would say first? At least four other Justices William H. Moody, Frank Murphy, Benjamin Cardozo, and James Clark McReynolds were never married.
For decades, it was the sole issue for R’s in politicizing nominations to the SC.
Not a single person on the left ever even thought about abortion when considering nominations to the SC.
My response to anyone who thinks otherwise: Quit fighting the culture war and just get over it.
Of course Democrats didn’t do anything to secure abortion rights.
Historically they were the Catholic Pro-Lifers.
Republicans wrote Roe v Wade and affirmed that as an Individual Right till Post-Viable.
Why so many of today’s Republicans have literally taken over a Catholic Democrat agenda is beyond me. The *REAL* Republicans of the past had it right all along.
Actually, all Dobbs did was reinforce Federalism and return the decision on abortion to the States where it belongs. The Progressive hissy fit is because leftists believe in an all powerful State to enforce its mandates on everyone not free will and personal liberty.
Except that rights are generally not covered under Federalism. We don't allow states to say that there is no right to free speech in their state. Medical care is not covered in the Constitution because at the time it was written medical care was primitive and not really regulated. Today medical care is highly improved and is generally considered a private matter. No state that I am aware of says your medical information is not private.
and is generally considered a private matter.
No it’s not. There is almost no other area of life that’s considered more public that healthcare.
Edit: So much so, there are people that believe it should be 100% taxpayer funded.
edit2: And that just because it's your body, doesn't make it your choice.
"your body, doesn’t make it your choice"
The 4th & 13th Amendments disagrees.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons ... shall not be violated"
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Unless you are raped, you are not forced to get pregnant. That is where the ridiculous involuntary servitude argument falls apart.
Voluntarily engaging in activities specifically designed to create another person means that you accept the risk of getting pregnant. If you don't want to be pregnant, then there are ways to still have your fun but avoid a pregnancy.
If you are careless, that's on you to take responsibility.
What do you think the the State Gov-Guns are there for????
Decoration?
Yes there are ways to not be pregnant. It’s called terminating the pregnancy. That *is* the ‘taking responsibility’ for one’s self.
The State is trying to stomp out that ‘taking responsibility’ of one’s self and assume it’s there “The States” responsibility. It's just none of their F'En business. It's PERSONAL.
Rights can be taken away from you, but not given. There is not innate right to destroy another human being. Sure you can do it, but it is not a right.
Medical care is a service provided by others. As such, it is not a right. You have no right to force others to serve you.
Democrats believe rights are endowed through democrat governance, and taken away by same.
So is Pro-Life's. Predictably originated in the Democrat party.
What if that other human being assaults me? Are you saying I have no right to self defense?
"Rights can be taken away from you"
Ya know like the right to remove something undesired from one's own body? Maybe the State can ban cancer treatment too; can't allow people to be destroying any human matter within themselves.
You still do not understand. Does an individual remove a baby from her uterus? Does she remove a tumor from her lung? No. Others perform these acts upon her. That makes them services, not rights.
Correct. There is no Individual Right to enslave the abortion 'service' market; JUST as there is no State Right to FORCE her to reproduce by BANNING the market. Course 'inherent' rights can't actually be taken away only 'Gunned' away; so I'm curious how you feel about the coat hanger method.
All Dobbs did was destroyed Constitutionally inferred (with every precedence ever written) Individual Rights and left those Individual Rights at the whim of the State.
JUST LIKE the slave-states did.
The argument is 100% EXACTLY the same one used by the confederates.
The rights of irresponsible sluts to freely murder the consequences of their actions to avoid accountability can never be moved from the spotlight in proggyland.
See, this is how I know you are trying to defend a position that comes from a religious belief.
Women who have sex outside of wedlock must be punished for their sin. You're just trying to leave out the religion so you can pretend this is a science thing, not a writ of gawd thing.
Are women accountable to give birth for you?
Who's 'accountability'?
>hospitals and doctors can be anxious and overly cautious when interpreting what is and isn't an emergency
Had Roe never come out, we would have had a chance to let custom and practice evolve with the law. But knowing doctors these days, these stories are the result of cynical bad faith actors. Laws against battery don't prevent hospitals from performing emergency surgeries, and neither should laws against elective abortion prevent treatment for miscarriage or ectopic pregnancies, etc. - and if you read the laws, they explicitly don't.
To the extent medical professionals are using Dobbs as an excuse to violate their oaths, they should be severely punished.
Dobbs is exactly the d*mned if they do and d*mned if they don't.
Roe v Wade at least kept Pre-Viable out that conundrum.
The only mistake was allowing Post-Viable to be ruled by politicians.
It should've addressed the *actual* concern and made fetal ejection an Individual Right just not the act of 'killing'.
I think there are (2) major reasons this subject is so sensitive.
1 - It was a violation of Individual Rights from the beginning (too Pro-Life). Power-madness has no satisfied limit.
2 - Legislation isn't even focused on the advertised concern on the subject.
often goes unremarked upon: the way Dobbs shifted the focus of the abortion debate back to women’s lives, not just the lives of any potential offspring that they’re carrying.
Did Dobbs do something I’m not aware of or is this all speculative wishcasting?
Also this constant talk of women. Suddenly everyone’s a biologist and a transphobe.
Dobbs destroyed pregnant Women's 'Individual Rights' to themselves.
They are but slaves of the State at this point on the subject.
Precisely why it's focusing on 'Women's lives' again.
What Dobbs did in repealing Roe was to show how complicated pregnancy care really is today. The procedures used in abortions are the same used for care for woman experiencing problem pregnancies. You cannot ban the voluntary abortion without affecting the doctor ability to treat his patient with a failing wanted pregnancy. This also puts an unnecessary burden on woman considering pregnancy because they are unsure of the doctor ability to treat them if problems develop.
Yeh, that’s the excuse your kind peddles to justify unrestricted infanticide.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
You just as well be saying, “Don’t kill my unicorn!” (imaginary creatures in fantasy-land.)
I’m supporting the right of an infant to stay alive.
Then you should probably set if free from that airless containment.
Really shouldn’t wade in here but most of the wanted pregnancies that are aborted are babies with chromosomal abnormalities. I have bitter personal experience with this issue. I will not go into detail but I will offer a few observations. Pre natal testing allows these fetuses to be identified very early in a pregnancy. I’ve reached the conclusion that in many cases at least, women, and their husbands, have too much information. What nature would have miscarried becomes an abortion. One of the links above is about a woman carrying a fetus with Trisomy 18 defects. In most cases the woman’s body rejects the fetus and the pregnancy ends in miscarriage. In some cases the baby remains viable until birth. But the vast majority will die within days or weeks. Most couples will choose to end the pregnancy by abortion. Then there’s Downs Syndrome. When I was growing up, in ancient times, these kids were pretty common. My mom called them mongoloids. Depending on severity they are often viable and some can live to adulthood. But there is a huge cost to the family. I’ve had friends in this situation that called their child a blessing. But I also saw the endless emotional and financial expense. As I understand it Downs kids no longer exist in Europe. The ones I’ve met have been very charming people. But I wouldn’t force any woman to give birth to one. I don’t know the answers these questions and I don’t know how to write a statute to regulate abortion. What I do know is that viability and health of the mother are simple answers to very complicated questions. I am deeply offended by using abortion as a birth control method and aborting full term healthy babies. But a total ban is a cruel alternative.
.
I am deeply offended by using abortion as a birth control method and aborting full term healthy babies. But a total ban is a cruel alternative.
aye
What nature would have miscarried becomes an abortion. One of the links above is about a woman carrying a fetus with Trisomy 18 defects. In most cases the woman’s body rejects the fetus and the pregnancy ends in miscarriage..
First, sorry to hear about your experience, assuming it wasn't pleasant.
Second: I'm assuming that natures miscarriage could be dangerous so the abortion is the safer alternative.
As I understand it Downs kids no longer exist in Europe. The ones I’ve met have been very charming people. But I wouldn’t force any woman to give birth to one.
I'm not prepared to research this at the moment, but I don't believe that's true. I might believe that it's significantly reduced say, compared to America, or other parts of the world, but I would be shocked to believe that Europe had literally reduced Downs syndrome to 0.
What I do know is that viability and health of the mother are simple answers to very complicated questions. I am deeply offended by using abortion as a birth control method and aborting full term healthy babies. But a total ban is a cruel alternative.
This is where I agree with you. Also, just a side note, while I totally understand the screening and aborting of babies that are observed to have potential problems (and I have no idea how effective, reliable these tests are and there are no false positive or negatives) but at some point when technology allows the screening to get increasingly aggressive and fine-tuned, the debate starts to look very 1939 and contains a lot of umlauts.
I might believe that it’s significantly reduced say, compared to America, or other parts of the world, but I would be shocked to believe that Europe had literally reduced Downs syndrome to 0.
There's always, you know, the possibility that the frequency of Downs Syndrome hasn't changed it's, you know, just harder to distinguish them from the *ahem* gen pop.
I don't disagree with a word. A planned abortion is probably safer for a women than a spontaneous one. As far as Downs I'm probably just repeating some right wing headline I saw out of the corner of my eye somewhere. But anecdotally I rarely see them around much anymore. And I'm no expert but when you get down to counting chromosomes I think the technology is pretty bulletproof. Beyond that it's a brave new world. Sometimes being old and staring at your own mortality is not such a bad place to be.
I challenge the idea that medical abortions are more safe than spontaneous abortions.
D&C always runs the risk of leaving something behind to cause infection or to nic something. Medical inducing can increase the risk of retaining foreign cells in the uterus.
While you have a risk for that in a spontaneous abortion, I don’t think it’s higher than medical abortion.
But then, we don’t have a lot of data to study because abortion clinics are not required to report like medical centers are, putting the lie to “Heath care”.
Thank you for pointing out this oft ignored but salient fact. Many of the 2nd and most of the 3rd trimester babies are aborted because they are not perfect. It has nothing to do with the mother's health.
I would not want to be in the shoes of a woman who is told her baby is genetically defective in a way that might shorten the babies life or impact it severely. Either way, the decision is heartbreaking.
As for maternal health, in the 3rd trimester, if her health or life is at risk, they induce labor early and deliver a living baby that can mature in the NICU.
Humorously this entire debate has ZERO to do with 2nd and 3rd Trimester policy. ZERO difference between Roe v Wade and Dobbs in that category.
But a total ban is a cruel alternative.
There isn't and never will be a total ban. This is a rape-fantasy offshoot of mentally handicapped individuals like ENB.
We were all here for the woman dosing kids for COVID against their parents wishes in her kitchen. We were all here when OH banned abortions and a family decided to take their 10 yr. old rape victim to IN and, somehow, the story made it's way to Joe Biden's lips before it made it to the State AG.
De facto, we had a ban on alcohol. De rigueur, less so. There will *never* be a political will in this country, even strictly among *C*onservatives, to enact such a ban. There isn't such a will for regular murder or the death penalty or rape. There is a will, but not an ability, among conservatives for greater 2A protection.
We are far, far closer to a total ban on guns than we are to a total ban on abortions.
But the good news is (for tyrannical gods); Dobb's made it so the State's can just up and [WE] mobster RULE that woman however the [WE] mobsters-wanna-play-gods dictate.
Not like any Gun-grabbers should have any quarrel with that direction right? Individual Rights? Nah. Who needs them. [WE] mobsters RULE! /s
Based on what you said, you sound more qualified than 99.9% of people to make abortion policy.
Thoughtful and considerate. In short supply these days.
Maybe [WE] mob policy just isn't a place for people's PERSONAL life situations.
Oh, this ought to be good.
>from direct changes to state abortion laws to its effect on politics, failure to
In other words - we're still gonna whine about even though we claim it had no effect. But you have to go back to the previous legal regime even though we claim the current changes had no effect on anything.
>In a Dobbs world, the physical dangers of pregnancy and the need for abortion to counter these dangers have become perhaps the most central theme in advocacy against abortion bans.
Mostly because the pro-getting-an-abortion crowd lost the 'its just a clump of cells' argument and had to change to the disingenous 'its for women's health' argument - deliberately lying about abortion bans, almost all of which include exceptions for rape or the health of the mother (for example, the famous 'its an ectopic pregnancy and you want the mother to die!!!!' claim even though treatment for ectopic pregnancies isn't considered an abortion anywhere).
>We've been hearing more and more about women with serious and sometimes life-threatening pregnancy complications who have been denied abortions,
Yes. Because you don't want to talk about the women wearing shirts that say 'I've had 27 abortions'. You don't want to talk about the other side of the coin - the side where women are using abortion as their preferred method of birth control.
>I've recently been interviewing people who describe themselves as pro-life or personally opposed to abortion but against abortion bans.
How many states have an abortion ban?
CNN say 'nearly' two dozen have banned *or limited access*. So its less than half. Looking at their own map, its 14. 14 states with 'total bans'. Except they're not total bans. They're bans on *elective* abortion. Of which all but three of them border states (and no, I don't buy the 'women can't drive 200 miles' argument) where abortion is available. It goes up to a whole *FIVE* if you want states that don't border one where its freely available 'up to birth' - ie, child-killing. I think that if you live in Louisianna, you can get to Kansas.
>Reproductive freedom advocates have long warned that things like this would happen,
Yeah, and the pro-life crowd long warned that legal abortion would be extend unto birth and even past it. And lo and behold, what triggered Dobbs? A bunch of people demanding abortion up to birth and past it. Y'all played yourself.
>Bans putting pregnant women at risk was a concern for 91 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents, and 41 percent of Republicans.
Maybe its because Republicans use birth control reliably - they don't 'forget' (oops! Oopsie!) and they don't have body counts in the double digits by the time they're 30?
> It's women already dealing with the grief of a miscarriage
Keep bringing up this canard. No, no one is coming for women with miscarriages. For fuck's sake.
> New legislation would repeal parts of the Comstock Act, a Victorian-era law that criminalizes mailing anything that could be used to induce an abortion or anything "obscene, lewd, lascivious, indecent, filthy or vile." But while the bill's text has not yet been released, its sponsors say it would only repeal the parts of the law that apply to abortion.
Well, yes - because the other parts have already been ruled unconstitutional.
We’ve been hearing more and more about women with serious and sometimes life-threatening pregnancy complications who have been denied abortions
How many of the denials+ life threatening condition cases were maliciously interpreted in the worst way possible by abortion zealots for the cause? They have done it before and definitionally have zero regard for human life, especially where resistance to their cause is concerned.
I don't think it is even that they're interpreted maliciously - I just think its a new tactic.
They're pulling up these anecdotes because post-Dobbs they're finding out it a) wasn't the abortion-pocalypse they claimed it would be. There are no roving gangs of Republicans hunting down women who've had miscarriages. The country didn't turn into an abortion-desert and most women are actually perfectly capable of traveling across state lines.
So they grab these anecdotes as the next tactic. Its the same way they started in with anecdotes about the one-in-a-million black guy who couldn't be bothered to get an ID to vote - while all his peers were managing that just fine.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that one about life-threatening complications being denied treatment. At least one case, the 10 year old girl, was put to the media before it was even brought before the ethics board, who immediately approved it. She was never denied an abortion. It was all a lie
When you've been lied to so much about this one topic, and the claim is absolutely unbelievable and directly contrary to the plain text of the law, I can't believe the reports.
What is missing in all these discussion is personal responsibility. I thought Libertarians were keenly aware that for a society to be free, each person must protect their rights. One way of doing so is to take responsibility when you make a mistake and if you can prevent mistakes from happening, then you take those measures.
With all the contraceptive tools out there, no woman should be getting pregnant, if she does not want to be. You do not own a mistake by screeching about fake “healthcare”; you own a mistake by delivering the baby you made or preventing the conception in the first place.
That has always been my primary perspective. I want somebody to explain how an adult person commits certain voluntary acts which lead to an undesired outcome and then only in some cases gets to declare "jubilee" and walk away from responsibility for their actions.
A woman who doesn't want a child isn't likely to be a good mother. If she can decide she wants to kill the baby do you really want that woman to be forced to raise the child? Don't we have enough kids who are neglected, abused or ignored that develop into monsters who do terrible things? Where do you think the kids who decide to change their gender come from? Healthy well adjusted families or fucked up situations?
Everything you complain about with society can be traced back to shitty parents who do a piss poor job of raising their children. The drug addicts, school shooters, gender shifters, bullies, theives, rapists, child molesters murderers and income tax agents most likely came from a family where they were not loved.
What's the point of saving a life just to sentance the kid to parents who don't want him?
You should poll all the people who had shitty mothers and ask it they would rather not exist.
So you would prefer a high violent crime rate, a large below poverty population and plenty of angry kids looking to latch onto fucked up ideologies like Marxism, polygenderism and extreme progressive ideals over letting a woman who has no wish to be a mother having an abortion.
Plenty of crappy parents "wanted" their children too.
Every UN-finished project ever started.
What is missing in all these discussion is personal responsibility.
Personal responsibility is a red herring when talking about the legality of abortion. That would immediately lead to questions of how or even whether to treat a pregnant rape victim differently. But if the premise of restricting abortion is the rights of "unborn," then there shouldn't be any difference, correct? If a woman should be restricted through law from terminating an unwanted pregnancy when she was "irresponsible," then so should the rape victim.
Pregnancy always includes major burdens and risks on a woman's physical health and mental health. Those risk include the risk of death. (22 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the U.S. in 2022) It seems completely consistent to me that the additional psychological burdens of carrying her rapist's baby to term shouldn't be enough to justify an exception given the already serious burdens and risks involved in any pregnancy.
But that's not going to be a very popular position, will it? Pro-life advocates and politicians do a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid dealing with the logic of this dilemma. That was how Todd Akin ended up with his "legitimate rape" comment. The completely unsupported theory started floating around in those circles at one point about the psychological trauma of being raped making it hard for the woman's body to conceive, so he had latched on to that idea as why it wasn't necessary to have a rape exception. The woman's body would "shut the whole thing down" if she was forcibly raped, in his mind. Naturally, the other common response to this is how "rare" it supposedly is that pregnant rape victims even exist, so it also just isn't a big deal if there isn't a rape exception. Or, the politicians might kind of accept that there should be a rape exception, but they want the woman to have filed a police report before she could get an abortion. Because, you know, a woman that just didn't take birth control might lie in order to get an abortion otherwise.
All of that is why responsibility isn't relevant in my view. It always comes down to whether it is justified to legally restrict a woman from terminating a pregnancy despite the risks and burdens of pregnancy.
Rape pregnancies are such an outlier it’s barely worth mentioning. But this is how the extreme far left democrats justify everything.
Rape pregnancies are such an outlier it’s barely worth mentioning.
And there it is.
That’s how your kind operate. You propose an extreme possibility. Then you demand that public policy be based around extreme. You do this with everything.
My. How... well... biblical.
I’m agnostic. Try again.
Sure you are. That's why you have faith that life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Because you don't believe in a god.
You're trying to dodge the question of does the lump of cells have a soul. Which cannot be proven to exist in an adult much less a clump of cells.
So then, any type of responsibility that imposes burden and risks on people should be dismissed, right?
Yeah, that's exactly what I said!
Or, you could ask whether this particular responsibility you claim to exist actually does exist. Then, if it does, you could ask whether the responsibility was strong enough to impose burdens and risks upon a person.
I, for my part, do not acknowledge that there is a responsibility to continue a pregnancy. That is because I would come up empty when asking the question, "Who or what is this responsibility directed to?" Who does she owe anything to that would make a claim upon her to take "responsibility" for her actions?
Do you acknowledge a responsibility to AVOID pregnancy, if you do not want to become pregnant or father a child? We do have the means.
Why is it a responsibility and not just smart planning? Who is the responsibility toward?
If that ‘responsibility’ isn’t one’s own then yes.
You can’t shove your made-up ‘responsibility’ onto others.
The very difference between 'inherent' rights and 'entitlements' at someone else's expense.
Do you think of abortion as a form of birth control? What about planning ahead? Even Margaret Sanger's organization called it PLANNED Parenthood.
I think what others think about their own pregnancy is nobodies business but their own and certainly no excuse to drag the Gov-Guns into. I can sympathize with post-viable abortion taking an 'inherent' right to life and propose fetal ejection (actually address the concern) or I'd be content with Roe v Wade.
What I don't support is: Planning chickens before they hatch as an excuse to 'Gun' down Individual Rights. If a person can't claim ownership of their own bodily functions what can they claim at all?
Responsibility is accepted, not enforced.
Indeed. Notice which side of this issue seems vehemently against accepting it? Responsibility involves planning, which in the case of sex means thinking about how to prevent unwanted pregnancies and disease , as well.
Yet, at least one commenter seems allergic to the very thought; committed instead to killing as many conceived babies as possible.
Yeah…. It’s girls ‘Responsibility’ to reproduce!!!! /s
The only thing out preforming your bigoted arrogance on the subject is your power-mad nosiness. You go make sure everyone’s wife reproduces with ‘Gov-Guns’ if they ever have a mistaken fertilization occur. You must think that’s your purpose in life to harass/dictate others.
What is a gov-gun? Thanks for your arguments by the way - they are so irrational that they are funny.
What separates 'government' from anything else anyways?
Nothing; but the holding of an established monopoly of gun-force.
Government is nothing but 'Guns'; 'gov-gun'.
I think it's very important people realize/acknowledge the actual 'tool' being used that they propose to keep turning to all the time.
Other than the most fanatic of people, most of us understand the need for the option of destroying an unborn child in the case of rape. We can empathize with the heartbreaking situation a diagnosis of a congenital defect in a child creates.
Some women cope with having a child conceived by rape and others would be driven insane by reliving that experience every time the baby kicks.
Extreme circumstances make for bad arguments and laws. Most of us agree, that in bad circumstances, sometimes an ugly solution is the most suitable.
Elective abortions happen because two people were not purposeful in their actions and ignored the risk of the consequence. Personal responsibility does matter. More so for the woman, because, just like the last guy at the department happy hour gathering, she gets stuck with the bill.
Personal responsibility does matter.
Well; of course it does to those in the situation … NOT YOU.
So I’m still wondering why you want to make all those FORCED solutions for them.
Maybe your own 'responsibility' standards in your life doesn't have to be everyone else's.
What do you have against contraception?
You're not addressing his point at all. Why would a woman have any responsibility toward you or society or anyone but herself and her partner for avoiding pregnancy?
There is "oops I crashed into your car" or "oops I ran over your dog." Money solves these problems.
What you're talking about is "oops I just started a family without a husband or any insurance to pay for the medical costs of the pregnancy or the delivery." This isnt solved by money. Well, it is, but it's a small fortune. Delivery uninsured makes student loan debt look silly. Any complications and you're talking bankruptsy inducing amounts.
You 'own' the mistake by having an abortion before it's 'viable'.
Pro-Life is literally taking the 'own responsibility' out of the equation and giving it to the State.
Contraception. Safe, Legal, Easy to Obtain. Use it. Stop killing your unborn babies.
Like tearing down unmade houses?
Nothing but endless pure imaginative BS propaganda all over the place.
Just for the record, Dobbs did none of those things.
It took the abortion issue away from the federal government, and gave it back to the states.
Period.
All continuing arguments are focused on getting it back to the federal government.
And that is a bad thing.
Agreed. Instead, the focus should be on taking many more things out of the hands of the federal government.
Don't you mean, "taking more Rights out of the Constitution"?
Are people really this bloody ignorant about the difference between a UN-Constitutional ruling and federal legislation? SCOTUS STOPS the "federal government" - it isn't the "federal government". Roe v Wade specifically ruled it wasn't "federal government" territory JUST LIKE Dobbs.............
BOTH RULINGS CAME FROM THE SAME SCOTUS so what kind of BS can even reason one is 'federal' and the other isn't?
"It took the abortion issue away from the federal government, and gave it back to the states."
BULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL - SH**************T!!!!!!!
The US Constitution's Individual Rights isn't "federal government" issues. In fact it's the very prevention of "federal government" tyranny.
This is perhaps not only the STUPIDEST line of argument but the most dangerous one.
Nope.
Let's imagine there is this science called "biology". What could it tell us?
First, in successful human reproduction, there is no "beginning of life". Every component, from gametes to zygotes to fetuses to infants, is alive. Period.
Second, starting with gametes, some living thing has been created with a determined and unique genetic identity that is the chromosomal definition of a person (ignoring faulty genetic identities that are not viable).
Third, looking for some clearly defined threshold during gestation to justify a boundary between not-legal person and legal person is stupid.
Now, beyond biology, we have all the arbitrary forms of human discourse. Among these we have the entrenched rhetoric that argues from the premise that there are only two states of human legal status: yes or no. But don't we already have other types of status? How do we recognize, and protect the rights of children? How about unconscious or comatose people? People with significantly impaired mental function?
Perhaps a biologist without a preconceived ideology might say that pregnancy involves other types of human existence. And then we might ponder what legal status they deserve.
So what? Let say I give you that at the very moment of conception, as the sperm hits the egg, a human life is created. There. No argument that it's a human life.
So, what do you do if the fertilized egg fails to nest properly into the womb for any number of medical reasons? That's a human that just died. What about that dead kid? Are you fighting for its life?
Now, let's say the fertilized egg nests comfortably in the lining of the womb. However because the woman is on some fad diet she doesn't have the right stuff in her system and it passes out with her period bleeding. What then? It's another dead kid. What are you going to do about that death?
Now, let's say the woman was eating the right things and the fertilized egg takes off and the hormones do their magic. Pregnancy happens. Let's say the woman is a party girl, and before a test could even register the hormonal changes she gets wasted on vodka tonics and smokes a bit of weed. She poisons the fertilized egg and it doesn't keep growing. What then great defender of the innocent? Another dead baby.
There are a long list of things that can screw up a pregnancy. A longer list of things to do to properly nourish the developing child. Sometimes even a baby that is wanted dies, sometimes in the last trimester and is still born. It's a fucking mess. What do you plan to do about that? Yet again, dead baby. What is the plan?
You just rationalized away every form of murder. But in staying on the subject. How about we just not allow physician assisted infanticide?
No, I'm asking what will you do about specific situations that are statistically likely. Will you prosecute a woman who kills the baby with booze and pulls? Will you prosecute a woman who has sex but her body isn't in shape to accept the fertilized egg? Will you prosecute women who have still births? These are all cases where what you are calling a person dies.
Sophistry. I’m not playing this semantical game with you. You have nothing, but you’re desperate to not admit the truth.
But all you have is semantics. You're trying to use genetics to prop up the semantics of when the fertilized egg is a human life. Your unquestioned premise is abortion is wrong because the woman doesn't get punished for her sin of sex out of wedlock. The genetics argument is just semantics because there is no way a DA is going to order a genetic workup on both mother and lump of cells to prove it was a potential baby instead of a cancerous tumor.
So, let's say a mother who would rather not have her kids anymore straps them into her car and deliberately drives the car into a lake. That's OK because other mothers have done that accidentally, right?
Happens often enough. Most say God told them to kill their kids.
Look. That's a deliberate obfuscation and no one is falling for it. There is a strong difference between an accident, death due to natural causes, death due to unforeseeable incidents, and homicide.
What we are doing is defining homicide.
You're talking about intent. Ok, the woman had sex with no intent of having a child. Is she now not the mother?
Look. As I said, I'm not falling for this obfuscational nonsense.
This is not about whether someone is a good mother. It's not about motivated reasoning.
This only question is whether this is murder or not. Murder is the ultimate crime. No burdens or inconveniences justify murder, no matter how great.
On the other hand, if it's not murder, then we are just talking about public health policy.
Again, you are dodging the question by throwing out irrelevant statements.
And you know the fertilized egg is a child because of your decades spent studying biology, reproduction, and genetics? Or is it because you think your god wants to punish sinful women? I suspect the second.
If the woman had sex with no intent of being a mother, then she used contraception and/or insisted her partner do the same.
Second, starting with gametes, some living thing has been created with a determined and unique genetic identity that is the chromosomal definition of a person (ignoring faulty genetic identities that are not viable).
Unique? Well, that ignores identical twins, then.
So, one of the twins can be aborted. Interesting.
Identical twins are just freaky. And sometimes sexy.
The "legal status" is; 'rights' are inherent.
'Guns' can't make something exist. They can only FORCE others to create it.
Dobbs didn't save sh*t; it just FORCES it's creation by the UN-willing.
But while the bill’s text has not yet been released, its sponsors say it would only repeal the parts of the law that apply to abortion.
Ah, good. So I still won’t be able to mail MDMA or weed or steroids or cooking wine or ammunition or mercury, or even, according to the sponsors, actual materials that would constitute speech, but my abortion meds will have been enshrined into the register of “must be delivered by federal mail”.
Good to know that Dobbs recentered the abortion debate around women and not about federal handouts and authority in the abortion debate or about rights more broadly.
How did ENB write this without mentioning sex workers? I hope she's feeling OK.
cry harder lol
How was he ‘crying’ in the first place? You’re as dumb as Shrike.
Are you Shrike?
Not a single person I know changed their position on Roe v Wade. All that changed is the amount of bullshit that old white men in Red states can push on women. Time for women to wake up and get their rights back. Not my problem though, keep letting the MAGAs push y'all around I guess.
cry harder lol?
Cry harder, bitch.
Trump (MAGA) is personally Pro-Choice.
Your TDS is showing.
Elizabeth - Just be honest about how as a woman you want the ability to murder an unborn child without any accountability. Naturally you don't want others like the father to have a say but you as the woman absolutely musty be allowed to murder on demand with zero accountability.
Elizabeth – Just be honest about how as a woman you want the ability to murder an unborn child without any accountability.
Except that “unborn child” is the term favored by those that are against abortion. And referring to abortion as murder is the view of those against abortion. What you are saying is that you want Elizabeth to just be "honest" and agree with you.
They've gotten their asses handed to them for a long time because they didn't divorce their arguments from their religious views. You can't prove a soul exists so you can't prove when one connects to a child.
So now they've grabbed onto genetics because it's more science like. But they ignore how genetically similar all life is. By taking this track they are sliding down the slope toward the Vegans. After all, a piglet is a whole lot more resilient than a human baby, it also is more curious and could likely pass any tests the newborn could. Hogs are so close to humans it doesn't take much to make their organs work for us.
Depending on how they define that genetic difference to make the baby not a tumor they may be including more of the animal kingdom in their demands. I almost want to see them pass a law using this idiotic argument so the PETA people can make eating several animals a crime and maybe charge ranchers with enslavement of a person.
Fathers are only there for financial accountability. They don’t have any ‘rights’. Especially the white ones.
A father is someone who commits to assisting in the raising of the child and providing the child protection and love. A father is not the one night stand from the bar the woman was at the night before. Even if she fed him breakfast in the morning.
Tell that to the judge when the woman demands child support.
If a judge has to force someone to contribute to the child's well being then he isn't a father. A father takes care of his offspring willingly.
To the extent that women factored into this debate
They don't factor into it at all. They're irrelevant to the debate.
Well, that's a rather old testament view of things.
No it's not.
It has no religious implications whatsoever. We're talking about whether it's OK to intentionally terminate a human being. Being a woman has no bearing on that subject. Nor does race, creed, immigration status, hair color, or shoe size.
Sure. Your opposition is entirely secular. It has nothing to do with the woman needing to be punished for her sin of sex. We don't believe you. You're trying to dance around the idea of a soul which you can't prove even exists so now you try to say a fertilized egg is a seperate person who needs to be protected.
But you still won't commit to any support for the woman or the possible child. In fact what support is out there you want to eliminate so the woman is punished even more for he wanton sexuality.
None of you will say what you want to happen in the case of your supposed separate person dying during the pregnancy of means other than abortion. If it's a full fledged human than why are you not committing to all means necessary to save its life? You would let it die because the mother isn't eating healthy and taking her supplements which, by your logic, is child endangerment. You would let it die because the mother drank a bottle of vodka, again if you say it's a person that is child endangerment.
Show some fucking consistency. Your lack of consistency is what shows you are taking a religious position and not a logical one.
It has nothing to do with the woman needing to be punished for her sin of sex.
It has nothing to do with women at all.
We don’t believe you.
Let me guess, you self-identify as a Borg?
You’re trying to dance around the idea of a soul which you can’t prove even exists so now you try to say a fertilized egg is a seperate person who needs to be protected.
It's not? I mean, in all measurable aspects that's exactly what it is. How can you possibly claim otherwise, unless you're intentionally dehumanizing it?
But you still won’t commit to any support for the woman or the possible child.
Why would I? For that matter, lol, why would you?
Or are you outing yourself as a leftist instead of a libertarian?
None of you will say what you want to happen in the case of your supposed separate person dying during the pregnancy of means other than abortion.
Because it’s irrelevant. The relevant part of abortion is the intentional termination of a pregnancy. You seem to be trying to equate that with unintentional failed pregnancies.
If it’s a full fledged human
What’s a “full fledged human?”
You would let it die because the mother isn’t eating healthy and taking her supplements which, by your logic, is child endangerment. You would let it die because the mother drank a bottle of vodka, again if you say it’s a person that is child endangerment.
I’ve said none of those things – but in any event, it sounds like you’re describing abortion-like things. Intentionally taking actions for the specific and intentional purpose of harming ones progeny. Maybe a little less direct than straight up killing him – but close enough.
Show some fucking consistency.
Language.
Where do you think I’ve been inconsistent to date?
You've done very well never mentioning any religious reasons. I've seen this argument all over the place. They are talking points and prepared arguments provided to Christians so they can argue the point without mentioning souls and other points that are faith based to avoid being shut down on that basis.
However the base assumption, that a fertilized egg is a human life, has no base in secular reasoning. That assumption is one that comes from religion which seeks to punish the woman for the sin of sex out of wedlock.
Maybe if you were arguing that the man who got her pregnant had to suffer some firm legal penalty to force him into being the father then I might take you seriously. But it's all about the woman who spread her legs being saddled with the responsibility. That's what gives you away.
However the base assumption, that a fertilized egg is a human life, has no base in secular reasoning.
A) It's not an assumption; B) I've already explained the secular reasoning.
But it’s all about the woman
It's like you're illiterate. That's not MY position. It's YOURS. I've expressly said - multiple times - that "the woman" is 100% irrelevant to the conversation.
My INITIAL POST flat out said this. And I repeated it. You keep trying to thrust that claim on to me. But you have ZERO basis for doing so.
Look, before you go too far in pretending that this is only a Christian imposition, I would refer you to the Hippocratic oath, sworn to Apollo, that banned abortion as a type of deadly medicine.
Which is why the mothers drowned their inconvenient children. Infanticide in time of fiscal hardship is a time honored tradition in the west. You conservatives are all about tradition.
It is entirely a religious implication; else people could acknowledge the fact that setting it free isn’t ‘killing’ it and support allowing it to be separated (fetal ejection).
You have ‘faith’ its a distinct living human being but refuse to prove it. In fact do everything possible to prevent the proof from existing. (entirely ‘faith-based’ legislation).
As I've showed in the previous article. Dobb's ruled by 'moral' standards in complete contrast to all the Constitutional precedence's referred to in Roe v Wade. The word 'moral' isn't in the US Constitution.
(fetal ejection)
That's like your go-to response, isn't it. It's been rebutted a thousand times, but you bitter-cling to it like it's going to save your argument.
It won't.
If you walked in an intentionally terminated someone on life support, would that be a violation of rights? I don't need to bring up "souls" or "faith" or anything of the kind to ask that question. If you walked into a hospital room and intentionally terminated someone on life support, would you be "setting it free" by "allowing it to be separated?" Or would you be committing murder?
And heck, it doesn't even have to be like some brain-dead vegetable in a coma for a decade. A guy during a heart transplant. You walk in there somewhere between his old heart being removed and his new heart being transplanted. He's no different than a fetus at that point. Are you somehow justified in "separating" him from those allowing him to potentially keep living and "setting him free?"
You have ‘faith’ its a distinct living human being but refuse to prove it.
Y'know, I've been here awhile - and to the best of my recollection, I don't think I've ever used the word "faith" on this website. Not even once.
Anyway, I don't need to prove it. It proves itself. This is basic biology. We've got proven science to show that it's distinct from its progenitor. We know that it's living because it lives, and continues living and developing. We know that it's human because we've run specific DNA tests for that. I mean, what more do you need?
And even if we DIDN'T have proof of all of that, we have no reason to believe otherwise. Even if we were slightly unconvinced, the benefit of the doubt should go to life. As is does in all other regards in human existence. The ONLY reason to deny it, is to rationalize this specific atrocity. This intentional genocide.
As I’ve showed in the previous article. Dobb’s ruled by ‘moral’ standards
Pretty sure you didn't. In fact, I doubt I'm alone in concluding that you haven't ever read the Dobbs decision even once. I have. Spoiler alert: that word you quoted isn't in there.
The word ‘moral’ isn’t in the US Constitution.
Neither is the word "murder." Yet...
Entirely ruled on ‘moral’ whim in contrast to Individual Rights.
https://reason.com/2024/06/14/the-bombshell-secret-alito-recording-was-not-a-bombshell/?comments=true#comment-10606631
Do you think the fetus is getting a heart transplant?
Yes; closest family does have the right to pull the plug on others.
You can’t FORCE life-support. Do you also think universal healthcare is a ‘right’?
The "the benefit of the doubt should" NOT go to Gov-Gun dictation.
YOU should made that PERSONAL decision for yourself; not everyone else.
You STILL haven’t read Dobbs, have you.
Here dummy, I’ll do it for you:
We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled. The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision, including the one on which the defenders of Roe and Casey now chiefly rely—the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. That provision has been held to guarantee some rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution, but any such right must be “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition” and “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997).
The right to abortion does not fall within this category. Until the latter part of the 20th century, such a right was entirely unknown in American law. Indeed, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, three quarters of the States made abortion a crime at all stages of pregnancy. The abortion right is also critically different from any other right that this Court has held to fall within the Fourteenth Amendment’s protection of “liberty.” Roe’s defenders characterize the abortion right as similar to the rights recognized in past decisions involving matters such as intimate sexual relations, contraception, and marriage, but abortion is fundamentally different, as both Roe and Casey acknowledged, because it destroys what those decisions called “fetal life” and what the law now before us describes as an “unborn human being.”
Stare decisis, the doctrine on which Casey’s controlling opinion was based, does not compel unending adherence to Roe’s abuse of judicial authority. Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. And far from bringing about a national settlement of the abortion issue, Roe and Casey have enflamed debate and deepened division.
It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives. “The permissibility of abortion, and the limitations, upon it, are to be resolved like most important questions in our democracy: by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting.” Casey, 505 U. S., at 979 (Scalia, J., concurring in judgment in part and dissenting in part). That is what the Constitution and the rule of law demand.
There’s no moral quality to that. He flat out said: Roe was unconstitutional from the start. It was based on specious reasoning and caused far more damage than it intended to prevent. And then he said what should please every libertarian on the planet: “return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”
But we both know you’re not a libertarian.
Yes; closest family does have the right to pull the plug on others.
Not if he’s literally in mid-operation they don’t. What planet do you live on?
The “the benefit of the doubt should” NOT go to Gov-Gun dictation.
I didn’t say it should. I said it should go to life. Can you tell me one reason it shouldn’t?
LMAO…. Way to Cherry-Pick….
Ironically; Something Alito didn’t even have a chance to do since none of the courts precedence went his opinion of way so he had to use the “because I said so” way.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Justice Alito delivered the opinion of the Court.
The opinion of the court by Alito marked C1 last paragraph.
“None of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical ****moral**** question posed by abortion.”
Roe v Wade referred precedence on………
– the right to marry a person of a different race
– the right to marry while in prison
– the right to obtain contraceptives
– the right to reside with relatives
– the right to make decisions about the education of one’s children
– the right not to be sterilized without consent (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
– the right in certain circumstances not to undergo involuntary surgery, forced administration of drugs, or other substantially similar procedures (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
– right to engage in private, consensual sexual acts
Alito washes all those Individual Rights to ones self away because……….. And I quote.
“Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license fundamental rights to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like.”
How exactly is ‘life saved’ with a State Gov-Guns? In every ‘killing’ charge under the sun the ‘Guns’ are used in self-defense against an attacker yet in this ONE specific place it doesn’t matter if you kill the Woman or not; You just can’t “save life”.
Point: You’re not saving sh*t but your own religious bigotry.
You mean removing a heart from a genetically different person and putting it in a different human? Then doesnt that heart qualify as a baby? It's genetically different than the host after all.
No, hearts aren't babies.
For pete's sake, go take a remedial biology class.
But you know what, that's an interesting thought experiment. Let's change up the scenario. Instead of killing the patient on the table, you take the transplant heart out of the doctor's hand and smash it under your boot heel. Have you committed a crime? Or a moral injustice?
“No, hearts aren’t babies.”
Apparently they are according to Pro-Life.
Now don’t cherry-pick your scenario. Who took that ‘heart’ out of the previous patient? Shouldn’t the doctor be charged of a ‘moral’ crime? Just because the last patient didn’t have an ‘inherent’ right to life doesn’t mean taking his/her heart out isn’t ‘killing’ right, right? /s
Neither yours nor Alito’s ‘morals’ has any right to make imaginary crimes against people enforced by Guns. It’s PERSONAL. The power is reserved to the “The People”. Roe v Wade pegged-it far better than Dobbs. It's only mistake was allowing State's to FORCE reproduction post-viable when it should've been a right to fetal ejection (as all the other precedence referrals went). Roe v Wade granted the State a justified amount of 'interest' in PERSONAL matters and Power-madness (dictation) formed until there was no longer PERSONAL rights left.
Sigh, Reason.
“Pfttt…. What ‘physical health of women’? That’s not a Women. That’s a State owned incubator.”, Dobbs.
The real question is when does a Fetus feel pain. I don't know the answer, but am pretty sure that this is prior to delivery. I'm also pretty sure that this is prior to viability. I don't hold either anti-abortion or pro-abortion positions. I rather fit in the middle ground. I do feel that the decision should be made a locally as feasible and as a result believe that Roe vs Wade should have been struck down and the decision going back to the states. I disagree with a complete ban of abortions and also disagree with unrestricted access to abortions. The reality is that a human fetus is a developing human child and at some point their right to be born and not be tortured to death has to be take into consideration. Yes, the human fetus is occupying the womb of the mother, but the human fetus is completely innocent with zero participation in the conception. The line is difficult, so 50 different with all the possibility for bad laws is still better than one bad law which we had. Experimentation with laws will eventually shake out the unreasonable laws on both sides and offers the opportunity of some sort of compromise and consensus. My simple question is when does a human fetus feel pain?
Read this article from the National Institute of Health, published in 2022
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8935428/
It is titled: Fetal Pain in the First Trimester.
Or maybe you just can't 'save' a life that doesn't exist in the first-place and such border-line area's are none of the [WE] mobs 'governments' business until a life can be 'saved'.
Which is EXACTLY what Roe v Wade ruled.
How's it any of the 'governments' business before that? You think just because it's "The State" sticking their noses into people's PERSONAL life's without even a speckle of reason to be their short of [WE] mobs 'moral' opinions that's a-okay? Roe v Wade left it up to the State's post-viable.
"I do feel that the decision should be made a locally as feasible and as a result believe that Roe vs Wade should have been struck down"
That makes NO sense. Roe v Wade made it FAR more local than Dobbs. Roe v Wade made it an Individual Choice. What's more local than that? Dobbs 'government-ed' it.
Do you really think normal people can't see what really happened (the difference) or are you just trying to convince them they can't believe the reality taking place.
Honestly Uomo, it's irrelevant.
The immediate pro-abortion response would be, "Well then we'll just anesthetize the fetus and no biggie." The anti-abortion response is, "Just because a human doesn't feel pain doesn't mean it's OK to kill him." (In fact, we sometimes induce comas TO stop the immediate experience of pain, while we solve an underlying problem.)
The rest of your post is spot on.