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Disinformation

Combat Disinformation With Better Norms, Not More Laws

Fight back through better information and discourse, not by empowering the government.

Steven Greenhut | 4.12.2024 7:30 AM

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A Trump baby balloon | Photo 197480541 © Inkdropcreative1 | Dreamstime.com
(Photo 197480541 © Inkdropcreative1 | Dreamstime.com)

In a typically unhinged social-media post last month, Donald Trump expressed the desire to jail former U.S. Rep. Liz Cheney (R–Wyo.) and the members of the select congressional committee investigating the January 6 riot or insurrection or peaceful demonstration or FBI false-flag operation (pick your narrative). It's one in a long series of posts in which the former president and 2024 GOP nominee has touted tactics usually reserved for third-world strongmen.

More recently, the judge in the case involving Trump's hush-money payments to adult-actress Stormy Daniels slapped a gag order on him "after repeatedly targeting the judge's daughter in social media posts," per USA Today. Not long ago, Trump said he would tell Russia to do "whatever the hell they want" to NATO member countries that don't pay their bills. And, of course, he continues to falsely claim the 2020 election was stolen.

This is all widely reported, yet I expect many readers to already have their computers out so they can pen angry letters to the editor. Sorry, I've already heard all the excuses, "whataboutisms" and alternative explanations. America's two main tribes don't agree on much anymore and there's little hope they'll find common ground on Trump. But they should agree on this much: He's demolished most of the norms surrounding the presidency.

Channeling the Carly Simon song ("You're so vain, I bet you think this song is about you"), I'd note that this column isn't really about that narcissistic man who has captivated the public's attention for more than eight years. It's about disinformation and what the nation should do about it. In their frustration at Trump's truth-bending norm-busting behavior, many Trump critics are willing to promote policies that would also seem inappropriate in a democracy.

In a New York Times piece last month, Jim Rutenberg and Steven Lee Myers note that after the January 6 unpleasantness, "a groundswell built in Washington to rein in the onslaught of lies that had fueled the assault on the peaceful transfer of power." Blaming the spread of misinformation for Trump's success, they lament "the Biden administration has largely abandoned moves that might be construed as stifling political speech." They expressed concern by political opposition to a broader government role in shielding elections from disinformation.

That sounds so reasonable on its face. Trump and his MAGA movement have indeed spread misinformation and disinformation (the former is false and the latter is maliciously so) to keep the former president in power—and now to help him waltz back into the Oval Office. But the First Amendment is clear ("Congress shall make no law…"). There's absolutely no way government officials can reduce either of those two types of bad information without crushing the free-speech protections that are inherent in our nation's founding.

The basic rule of thumb in America is people can pretty much say or write what they choose. Libel law provides a form of recourse in the civil courts, but alleged victims have to surmount a fairly large hurdle. That's as it should be. Let's take an example of why even the best-intentioned government anti-disinformation efforts would descend into absurdity and abuse.

Many progressives believe that manmade climate change is as true as the existence of gravity. Some conservatives believe it's not true and provide alternative explanations and data. If the government tried to crack down on climate-change mis/dis-information it would inevitably (depending on who controlled the government) end up censoring ideas that run contrary to the mainstream view that manmade global warming is an unquestioned fact. Even if it is, this would chill discourse—and squelch legitimate studies that challenged the most debatable aspects of the theory.

Sure, some social media platforms arguably have done as much, which explains why many Republican legislators have supported efforts to expand government control of social media. But those are private platforms. The government isn't doing the censoring. Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter (now X) shows how easily private companies can change their policies. By contrast, official policy in federal or state agencies rarely changes over decades.

Increasingly, progressives are ditching their long-held (supposed) commitment to free speech. I previously quoted from another New York Times article that found a bevy of constitutional law scholars who "are beginning to question the way we have come to think about the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech." They find such protections "inadequate for our era"—and that political era is defined by Trump and his willingness to promote conspiracies and cons.

Americans fixate on changing laws to improve outcomes. But we can't fix a political problem that has eroded democratic norms by passing new laws that also erode cherished free-speech norms. That approach is downright Trumpian. Rutenberg and Myers's piece fears "Trump's allies are winning the war over disinformation." Well, it's time to fight back through better information and discourse, not by empowering the government to referee these debates.

This column was first published in The Orange County Register.

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Steven Greenhut is western region director for the R Street Institute and was previously the Union-Tribune's California columnist.

DisinformationFirst AmendmentFree SpeechDonald TrumpMisinformationTwitterSocial MediaElection 2020
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  1. SQRLSY One   1 year ago

    No comments yet? Are we FINALLY free of the sore-in-the-cunt cuntsorevaturds who love to spread hate and lies, and won't pay a single dime to Reason? If so... It's not a moment too soon!!!

    1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

      Barring open fascism, dictatorship, where truth is clearly deemed irrelevant, all remaining corruption depends on lies which obfuscate the truth.

      Lies coerce by compelling people under the false authority of truth to act in the liar’s interests instead of their own.

      There can be no reasonable defence against lying without first defining and accepting a rational definition of what criteria must be met to constitute truth. Only then can there be real consequences for spreading misinformation, lying.

      Correctly applied logic and science have been developed by humanity for millennia to do just that.

      Their correct application represents the best understanding of truth that humanity is capable of. As such they serve humanity to define truth used in both the identification and prosecution of lies, aka misinformation.

      Criminalize lying.

      1. SQRLSY One   1 year ago

        Oh, bullshit ass usual!

        A HUGE percentage of political fighting is directed at, "Yes, we are both a tribe-nation and collections of individuals. That much seems clearly factual. I personally think that we should regard ourselves as 85% collections of individuals, and 15% a tribe-nation. Of our tribe-nation nature (spending for the public good), 10% of that spending (Splitting the 15% of spending) should be VOLUNTARY (including insurance, which can be regarded as "voluntary, contractual socialism"), and 5% should be tribalistic-nationalistic Government Almighty spending... So my figures are 85-10-5% then...

        Someone else gets up and say, "No, it should be 50-10-40%, per your manner of slicing"! And then of course, if we tend to be assholes, we will fight about it!

        No WHO, above, is "lying"? How can one (unless one is a fascist idiot) even PRETEND to say that these numbers can be precisely set, "factually", without "lying"?

        1. 5.56   1 year ago

          I think it will be people like you that will make reading the comments really worthwhile after they become a paid feature.

          - your biggest fan

      2. Zeb   1 year ago

        You want to see how criminalizing lying turns out? Go to Germany and start spouting your holocaust denial bullshit.

        1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

          Regarding the bullshit WW2 holocaust story that I’ve refuted many times here, in EVERY nation, including Germany, where the story is alleged to have occurred, seeking, finding or sharing any evidence, particularly irrefutable evidence, that refutes the story is criminalized.

          It is fascist censorship and has nothing to do with truth or lying.

          1. Zeb   1 year ago

            Somehow I knew you would miss the point completely.

            1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

              How does it feel to know that you can’t refute anything that I say?

              Hahaha

              1. VULGAR MADMAN   1 year ago

                Are you a Sarc sock puppet?

  2. damikesc   1 year ago

    The 1/6 Committee pretty blatantly broke the law in their investigation.

  3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

    In a typically unhinged social-media post last month, Donald Trump expressed the desire to jail former U.S. Rep. Liz Cheney (R–Wyo.) and the members of the select congressional committee investigating the January 6 riot or insurrection or peaceful demonstration or FBI false-flag operation (pick your narrative).

    Aw, he doesn't really mean it. He's only exaggerating to make a point. Don't take him literally or seriously. Besides, Biden is so much worse and you voted for him you leftist who voted for Biden.

    And it was peaceful tourists you leftist who voted for Biden. Only leftists who voted for Biden call it anything else you leftist who voted for Biden.

    1. damikesc   1 year ago

      The 1/6 Committee violated several laws in their investigation, largely dealing with their non-retention of evidence.

      1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

        I’m sure that is the reason why Trump wants them in jail. Yeah. It’s not revenge. It’s purely legal. He’d never do something for revenge. Biden? He’s so much worse. I mean, just look at him.

        1. damikesc   1 year ago

          Should the 1/6 Committee be immune from prosecution for violation of laws?

          If so, why?

          They hid stuff that WE paid for.

          1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

            What violations of laws? Smells like Trump bullshit to me.

            1. damikesc   1 year ago

              The non-retention of evidence? That is blatantly illegal. You cannot do an investigation and then just toss all of the evidence, especially after trying to use it for criminal charges. GOP leadership had every right to the evidence when they took over and the Dems decided to erase it or encrypt it so nobody could see it.

              1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                Got any links? I don't visit far-right conspiracy blogs, and google isn't coming back with anything.

                1. SQRLSY One   1 year ago

                  Damned-and-Sick links to His Sacred Tinfoil Hate-Hat (Which Knows All Things!), and snot much else...

                2. JesseAz   1 year ago

                  So you’ll basically ignore any link that gives you the evidence? Not because the evidence is there. But because you want to ignore it with an ad hominem attack. Could have sworn you were accusing others of this behavior just yesterday.

                  1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    This is odd sarc. From Google.

                    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-12-20/the-public-may-not-see-all-of-the-jan-6-committees-work-for-decades-if-ever

                    https://justthenews.com/government/congress/republicans-recover-over-100-files-deleted-jan-6-committee-days-gop-took

                  2. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    https://nypost.com/2024/01/22/news/house-jan-6-committee-deleted-more-than-100-encrypted-files-days-before-gop-took-majority-sources/

                    And

                    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-08-14/republicans-accuse-jan-6-house-select-committee-of-withholding-materials

                    I mean I can keep going.

                  3. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/house-gop-report-alleges-jan-6-committee-deleted-records-and-hid-evidence/ar-BB1jMhzy

                    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/former-jan-6-select-committee-deleted-more-than-100-encrypted-files-from-its-probe-in-the-days-before-republicans-took-over-the-house-majority/ar-BB1h4AKO

                    Did you google "I don't want to know about what I'm asking for"?

                    1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

                      There is a reason he claims to have you muted. He isn't interested in honest discourse.

                    2. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

                      It is funny how he claims to have never heard about this before, when it was not hard to find. His deflection is only people who frequent right-wing cooky-conspiracy sites would know of this story. Does it occur to him that maybe he needs to diversify his own news sources if he still hadn't heard about the destruction of evidence by the Jan 6 committee? No, that would require introspection instead of shitposting.

                    3. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      Him and Jeff use ad hominems a lot to dismiss inconvenient stories and facts. But to even claim this is only on right wings sites is just mendacity.

                      All of the top sites on Google are already biased away from the sites sarc claims to not want information from which is why latimes and MSN were at the top. And there were plenty of hits.

              2. Zeb   1 year ago

                The non-retention of evidence? That is blatantly illegal.

                Is that true for congress? Congress generally has a lot of leeway and immunity in how they conduct official business. I don't think that laws that apply to court proceedings are likely to apply. Or are there laws applying to congressional committees? I doubt congress would have made a law constraining themselves that way.

                1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                  The incoming majority sent letters and memos to retain all evidence. They were required to retain it. The deletion occurred after the memos and letters but before the transition.

                  The J6 report is also cited as evidence for both Smith and Fanni in their pursuits. So any evidence of those reports should be kept as evidence due to the usage by prosecutors under Brady.

                  1. Zeb   1 year ago

                    And I absolutely agree that their behavior was reprehensible and nothing from the committee should be allowed as evidence in court. I'm just saying I don't think they can be prosecuted for it. They definitely deserve censure and removal from office.

                2. Moderation4ever   1 year ago

                  More to the point is there is no evidence that documents were not retained. There are claims of missing documents but that does not mean that the information is not available. As I understand the issue it is a question of missing deposition videos. The transcripts for those video still exists and the transcripts in fact the norm.

  4. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

    "Increasingly, progressives are ditching their long-held (supposed) commitment to free speech."

    Revealing progressives long-held animosity towards speech that does not advance their dogmas. Seriously, they have been quite open about this since Citizens United and the prominence of Fox News and talk radio before that. They despise any media that is out of their control and is not pumping out their narratives. Free speech was never a principle to the far Left.

    1. Earth-based Human Skeptic   1 year ago

      Agreed. Every "peoples revolutionary army" since the beginning of time sought to control not just speech but thought.

  5. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

    "Trump and his MAGA movement have indeed spread misinformation and disinformation (the former is false and the latter is maliciously so)..."

    We know how the political establishment uses the term "misinformation". It is information that goes against the establishment's preferred narratives to manipulate public opinion. It may be false, but that is not a requirement for it to be classified as "misinformation".

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      If you have been told things that are false, you are misinformed. What's wrong with calling the things you were told "misinformation"?

      1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

        Because there are things that have been true that have been censored as "misinformation". Please keep up.

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          You said it was false.

          1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

            " It may be false, but that is not a requirement for it to be classified as “misinformation”."

            That is what I wrote.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              "False" is the only requirement for it to be classified as "misinformation".

              1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                That is demonstrably not true. There were many things under COVID, for instance, that were suppressed as "misinformation" which turned out to be true, or at least more plausible than the official line, like the lab leak theory.

                1. Set Us Up The Chipper   1 year ago

                  ...and mask efficacy (they were not)

                  ...and vax transmission efficacy (they were not)

                  ...and natural immunity was disparaged by authorities, some called it a myth.

                2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  Let’s say A is something that is false.

                  Let’s say B is something that is true, but believed to be false.

                  As long is it is not known that B is true, what is the practical difference between the two?

                  1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                    We know that many of the official narratives were "noble lies", it was known that they were false or unlikely to be true, but were advanced to manipulate public opinion in a way the regime wanted.

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      The list of conspiracy theories that did not pan out is much longer. But nobody remembers them. They only remember the ones that turned out to be true.

                    2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      So what? That does not refute that "misinformation" does not mean "false".

                    3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      The difference between misinformation and disinformation is intent.

                      Misinformation is know known to be false when it is spread, while disinformation is.

                    4. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      *not known*

                    5. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      Sarc continues to blindly defend government censorship. Amazing.

                  2. damikesc   1 year ago

                    “Let’s say A is something that is false.

                    Let’s say B is something that is true, but believed to be false.

                    As long is it is not known that B is true, what is the practical difference between the two?”

                    If “misinformation” is used to insure that the factual reality of B never BECOMES known, I fail to see how anybody cannot see a difference?

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      Misinformation is wrong.
                      Disinformation is lies.

                      Though I can see how some people in the comments have a difficult time telling the difference, being that anyone who disagrees with the Trump narrative is called a liar.

                    2. damikesc   1 year ago

                      In the case of COVID, the CORRECT information was labelled "misinformation".

                      Any ideas on how to handle that?

                      The "Misinformation" was not "wrong". Was not "lies". It just did not go along with a preferred narrative.

                    3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      In the case of COVID, there was a lot that was not known. Yes some correct information was labeled misinformation. Much of what is now known to be true was hypothesis at the time, but didn't have any facts to back it up. Later when facts emerged it went from hypothesis to truth. There was also lots of disinformation spread by those in power.

                    4. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      Sarc, do you honestly believe your facts changed narrative? Especially given the facts from the people you call conspiracy theorists never had facts changed? The exact same information you were given in 2020 remains true today.

                3. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                  or at least more plausible than the official line, like the lab leak theory.

                  So, explain to us all, based on what was known in March 2020, why the “lab leak hypothesis” should have received more prominent consideration than the “natural origin hypothesis”.

                  Evidence in favor of the lab leak hypothesis: there’s a virus lab in Wuhan and the outbreak started in Wuhan.

                  Evidence in favor of the natural origin hypothesis: the virus is a SARS-type virus and the previous SARS virus originated by jumping from animals to humans, and there is a virus with a similar genetic structure also found in China in bats.

                  The evidence for the former is entirely circumstantial and hinges on the “correlation equals causation” fallacy. The evidence for the latter is actually based on observations and experiments on SARS-type viruses.

                  I agree that the people who pushed the lab-leak hypothesis were treated more harshly than they deserved. But even to a neutral observer, again based on what was known at the time, it is not unreasonable to support the natural origin hypothesis. And it is just crazy-pants paranoia to claim that the natural origins hypothesis was a part of some conspiracy pushed to cover up some government malfeasance associated with the Wuhan virus lab (as some people here claim).

                  1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                    Because we know now that the lab leak theory was suppressed in order to not offend the CCP. It was done for political reasons, not because it was especially implausible.

                    1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      No - not offending the Chinese people (not just the CCP) was just ONE of MANY reasons that the lab leak hypothesis was not pushed. And EVEN IF TRUE - that doesn't make the evidence in favor of the lab leak hypothesis any stronger based on what was known in March 2020. It is still "correlation = causation" only.

                    2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      If memory serves, the COVID 19 patient zero was a lab worker, it made no scientific sense to dismiss the lab entirely as the source of the virus at the time with such vehemence.

                    3. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      The lab leak hypothesis should not have been dismissed ENTIRELY, I agree.

                      But the lab leak hypothesis should not have been treated with equal stature to the natural origin hypothesis.

                    4. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "The lab leak hypothesis should not have been dismissed ENTIRELY, I agree."

                      This is not what you have said before. You change your position on this regularly.

                      Can you see why people regard you as disingenuous?

                    5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      I have never said that the lab leak hypothesis should have been dismissed ENTIRELY. It's been my consistent position that it was always a valid hypothesis, but not the most likely one.

                    6. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      Furthermore I'm going to push back on the idea that the lab leak hypothesis should have received some sort of 'equal time'. No it shouldn't have, implausible hypotheses don't get equal time with more plausible ones. That doesn't mean that the implausible hypothesis is "totally wrong" or a "crank conspiracy", it just means that it shouldn't get as serious of consideration as the plausible ones - until new data comes along.

                    7. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      "The lab leak hypothesis should not have been dismissed ENTIRELY, I agree."

                      Since the genesis of this line of argument was the assertion that "misinformation" means "false", then that supports my assertion that "misinformation" means what the government does not want the public to hear, regardless of whether it is false or not.

                    8. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      The wet market theory was never more plausible jeff. This is you declaring your opinion is the more plausible one despite the facts you were given and dismissed. This is why people call you dishonest.

                      You continue to justify censorship against government narratives even when false.

                    9. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

                      Jeff the Chemist and Sarc are performing the Bizarro version of the Monty Python sketch.

                      "A SARS virus at a virology lab?"

                      "Must have escaped from a zoo."

                  2. damikesc   1 year ago

                    "I agree that the people who pushed the lab-leak hypothesis were treated more harshly than they deserved. But even to a neutral observer, again based on what was known at the time, it is not unreasonable to support the natural origin hypothesis."

                    If BOTH were plausible --- why was ONE "misinformation" only?

                    1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      They were not equally plausible. And again I am not talking about how the idiot politicians and activists and media types described the situation. I am talking about the actual scientific facts supporting each hypothesis. If you want to know why NPR labeled you as a conspiracy theorist, then go ask them. But if you want to know why it is completely reasonable for a person in March 2020 to believe the natural origins hypothesis over the lab leak hypothesis, without reference to partisanship or conspiracies, then see above.

                    2. damikesc   1 year ago

                      "They were not equally plausible."

                      True. There was never the tiniest bit of evidence of "natural evolution of the disease" at any point.

                      "I am talking about the actual scientific facts supporting each hypothesis. If you want to know why NPR labeled you as a conspiracy theorist, then go ask them. But if you want to know why it is completely reasonable for a person in March 2020 to believe the natural origins hypothesis over the lab leak hypothesis, without reference to partisanship or conspiracies, then see above."

                      The "science" was as wrong as humanly possible and the one thing science should not be doing is just assuming a hypothesis is wrong because it is politically unpalatable.

                      Science has damaged its image. Likely permanently.

                    3. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      There was never the tiniest bit of evidence of “natural evolution of the disease” at any point.

                      Except for the known behavior of how SARS-type viruses originate - SARS-CoV-1 originated by jumping from animals to humans.

                    4. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      chemjeff radical individualist 3 hours ago
                      Flag Comment
                      Mute User
                      They were not equally plausible. And again I am not talking about how the idiot politicians and activists and media types described the situation.

                      This again is a false opinion devoid of any factual analysis. Youre predeclaring your beliefs as the plausible one despite facts to justify the actions you supported.

                      This is pure dishonesty.

                    5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      How did SARS-CoV-1 originate?
                      How did MERS-CoV originate?
                      Both are SARS-type coronaviruses. Both originated in animals and jumped to humans. For MERS-CoV, it most likely originated in bats. For SARS-CoV-1, it most likely originated from palm civets and raccoon dogs. So when a BRAND NEW coronavirus emerged in late 2019/early 2020, it is a very reasonable hypothesis to assume that IT, TOO, LIKE ITS COUSINS, originated in animals and jumped to humans.

                    6. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      There are literal papers and records from 2020 showing the virus had signs of the same variations done under lab setting Jeff. How are you so fucking dishonest? In the spring of 2020 these papers existed.

                    7. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

                      So when a BRAND NEW coronavirus emerged in late 2019/early 2020, it is a very reasonable hypothesis to assume that IT, TOO, LIKE ITS COUSINS, originated in animals and jumped to humans.

                      Jeff the Chemist is deliberately obfuscating. COVID-19 was immediately sequenced and found to be most similar to a known bat virus that originated about 800 miles away from Wuhan. It was certainly well speculated that it had jumped to another species and then humans, but it has not been found in another species in the 4.5 years since. The evidentiary value of testing done at the wet market was grossly exaggerated at the time. None of the "findings" from the wet market that were supposedly so convincing were ever reproduced.

                      The distance between the most likely source and the outbreak does not correlate with the distance of the most likely source in previous outbreaks to which Jeff the Chemist refers. In the earlier outbreaks, the animal was local to the location. He is pulling that claim out of his ass.

                      The outbreak does correlate to the location of a lab in Wuhan where the foremost Chinese researcher of coronaviruses in bats had conducted research and where EcoHealth Alliance was funding GoF research. This information was certainly known by EcoHealth Alliance, who subsequently signed a letter regarding the origin of the virus as a lab leak as extremely unlikely.

                      Noble or otherwise, "extremely unlikely" was always a lie and the people who didn't buy it should be commended for maintaining the proper level of skepticism. Jeff the Chemist's slavish devotion to the cult of expertise should be roundly derided.

                  3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                    "Evidence in favor of the lab leak hypothesis: there’s a virus lab in Wuhan and the outbreak started in Wuhan."

                    Inside a communist country. Dictatorships are known for having low standards, and zero to low regard for human life, safety, dignity etc. They are also known for suppressing information, hiding information, outright lying, and jailing of people who contradict the government.

                    Ignoramuses like yourself, with a sarcasmic-level understanding of logic saying "duhh, google earth doesn't prove anything, duhh, correlation isn't causation" is pretty fucking disgusting.

                    The lab leak was and is plausible given the evidence and should have been taken seriously at the time, not written off as crank conspiracy theory.

                    1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      The lab leak was and is plausible given the evidence and should have been taken seriously at the time, not written off as crank conspiracy theory.

                      It should not have been written off as a crank conspiracy theory. I agree.

                      But it is also the case that it should not have been given equal stature to the natural origin hypothesis, based on what was known in March 2020. The evidence in favor of the natural origin hypothesis was simply much stronger at the time.

                    2. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "It should not have been written off as a crank conspiracy theory. I agree."

                      You have argued that it should have been in multiple recent threads on this. Please stop being so fucking disingenuous.

                    3. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      Where have I said it was a “crank conspiracy theory”?

                      It’s been my consistent position that the lab leak hypothesis, as of March 2020, was not FALSE but also not the most plausible hypothesis. It’s also been my position that, more often than not, the people pushing the lab leak hypothesis were ALSO pushing crank conspiracy nonsense such that “the natural origin hypothesis was just a coverup of government malfeasance regarding the Wuhan lab” or “the virus was deliberately engineered as biowarfare”. THOSE are crank conspiracy theories. Why don’t you try to present my argument fairly and accurately.

                    4. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      You said it was “circumstantial bullshit”, jeff in the links thread last week.

                      That’s hard to reconcile with “The lab leak hypothesis should not have been dismissed ENTIRELY, I agree.”

                      I think calling something bullshit is a way of dismissing it entirely, that’s how I use the term anyway.

                      I know, I know. Now I’m playing gotcha games, right?

                    5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      You are arguing against me and not against the evidence. So yes it is a gotcha game. Which is par for the course around here sadly.

                      In March 2020, the evidence in favor of the lab leak hypothesis WAS nothing more than "circumstantial bullshit". It was based on a fallacy of "correlation = causation". That was the ONLY evidence in its favor. As a formal matter it does not completely disqualify the hypothesis but it does make it "extremely implausible". Glad I could clarify my comments for you.

                    6. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      The only thing you have clarified is that you will freely jump back and forth in your positions.

                    7. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      In the same day, same thread:

                      Jeff through one side of his mouth - "In March 2020, the evidence in favor of the lab leak hypothesis WAS nothing more than “circumstantial bullshit”

                      Jeff through the other side of his mouth - “The lab leak hypothesis should not have been dismissed ENTIRELY, I agree.”

                    8. American Mongrel   1 year ago

                      The US government was funding it and probably contributing knowledge as well. Even though we banned it. We had to cover it up. Besides, how else were we going to make ballot harvesting legal?

                    9. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

                      Shit for brains ignores that patient zero was a lab tech in the virus research lab focusing on coronavirus strains.

                  4. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    Jeff, in the last week you have been given memos from 15 agencies. Over the last 2 years memos have been released showing CDC to alter papers and kill lab leak theories. We have testimony of scientists originally believing in lab leak given grants to change their opinion.

                    You continue to deny facts you have been given.

                    There was always zero evidence for the wet market theory.

                  5. EISTAU Gree-Vance   1 year ago

                    Jeff, you are obviously just here to argue against common sense no matter what the topic, so maybe you are paid to do this, I don’t know.

                    It doesn’t fucking matter “what ‘we’ knew in March 2020.” Someone damn sure knew what the truth was and we got stories about bat soup and raccoon dogs (2 years later!)

                    Whether the people who knew the truth were the ones pushing the propaganda, or they let others do it while they whistled past the graveyard matters not.

                    Yeah, John Q. Public didn’t have enough knowledge to know for certain. This seems to be what you cling to. So fucking what? We were lied to.

                    Asshole.

                4. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

                  Any claim that the lab leak theory was "extremely unlikely" was actually disinformation even in March of 2020. Here are some facts:

                  1) There are people who signed the letter decrying the lab leak theory who were involved with EcoHealth Alliance.
                  2) EcoHealth Alliance was funding GoF research in China in Wuhan at the time of the outbreak.
                  3) 15 federal agencies were aware that EcoHealth Alliance had been denied a request to perform similar research in the US in 2018.
                  4) China's main researcher on bat viruses was working at the lab in Wuhan at the time of the outbreak.

                  These are facts and not conspiracy theories. Many people were aware of these facts in March of 2020. Regardless, Occam's Razor alone is sufficient to justify the lab leak theory as the most likely based on the presence of the lab and the infection of lab workers. So why was it claimed that the lab leak was "extremely unlikely"?

                  Jeff the Chemist has been in every thread discussing the the lab leak theory conflating the issues, now joined by Sarcasmic. They are full of shit.

                  1. American Mongrel   1 year ago

                    Thank you. The fact that so few people are speaking these facts shows how effective their disinformation campaign has been.

                  2. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

                    This is all missing the point. I do agree that the Lab Leak Theory was more likely, even from the beginning, as many of you have pointed out.

                    The point, though, is not whether it was true, or more likely, or not. It's that cracking down on "mis/disinformation" means the government gets to decide what is true and what is not, and censor people they deem as spewing mis/disinformation. The whole point of the the 1st Amendment codifying our natural right to free speech is that restrictions on it come from and are enforced by government. Even if government were somehow always only concerned with truth, the government could still be incorrect in assessing what is mis/disinformation. Also people espousing wrong information can be countered by people espousing correct information. If there were some omniscient deity that could rule us and only censor truly false information, I still wouldn't want that.

                    (And preemptively, yes, the government did censor, whether directly or indirectly, as the Twitter Files revealed.)

                    1. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      This is all true, but with jeff, you can only focus on one thing at a time, he will already obfuscate and change the subject.

                    2. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

                      The point, though, is not whether it was true, or more likely, or not. It’s that cracking down on “mis/disinformation” means the government gets to decide what is true and what is not, and censor people they deem as spewing mis/disinformation.

                      Is it? Should the government get away with not performing due diligence, as was their duty, or spreading falsehoods? Is the "noble lie" fine if they don't crackdown on the truth?

                    3. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

                      You're misunderstanding what I was saying. I don't care if every instance of censoring posts/videos/articles/etc. was only censoring false information. It's still the government doing it, which it doesn't have the right to do. I don't want the government deciding which speech is true and allowable and what is false and not allowed. All speech which doesn't rise to the level of incitement (the Brandenburg precedent) is permissible (1st Amendment), and it's a violation of our natural rights for the government to stifle it.

                      The government peddling lies is another problem.

        2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          By the way, the list of false information (disinformation, lies, potaytoes, potahtoes) the Trump campaign and its useless idiots spread is longer than Ron Jeremy’s dick.

          1. JesseAz   1 year ago

            Such as?

            Amusing coming from the guy who openly pushes the government narratives and claim facts changed when evidence becomes insurmountable.

      2. Zeb   1 year ago

        The word "misinformation" is too loaded at this point. It no longer means what the plain dictionary definition says as it is used in public discourse.

  6. Roberta   1 year ago

    Trump says things. The Democrats use lawfare to shut people up. Get the difference?

  7. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

    "It's one in a long series of posts in which the former president and 2024 GOP nominee has touted tactics usually reserved for third-world strongmen."

    So various the criminal suits against Trump using novel theories of law by Democrat partisan officeholders are what, then?

    To certain extent, this can be seen as tit for tat, by Trump.

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      "Democrats did it first so it's ok."

      1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

        If Democrats are not being taken to task as using the tactics of Third world Strongmen for doing such things, then why are they bad for Trump? Double standards means it is the person who is outlawed, not the tactic.

        1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

          What exactly is the "wrongness" here?

          Is the wrongness the tactics themselves?

          Or is the wrongness the fact that the tactics are used by Democrats?

          If the tactics temselves are bad, then it's bad when anyone uses them.

          BUT, if it's only bad when Democrats use them, then sure, go ahead and advocate that Republicans use them. After all fair is fair, right?

          1. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

            "If the tactics temselves are bad, then it’s bad when anyone uses them."

            When called on using the dehumanizing language that you have denounced, you say "oh fuck off. I don't have power so it's ok for me to do it"

            1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

              Fine. Let's just suppose I'm a total and flaming hypocrite on the matter of 'dehumanizing language'. Does that mean that using dehumanizing language, by anyone for any reason and any purpose, is now acceptable because *I* do it?

              If no one used dehumanizing language at all, would you start to do it?

              1. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                Yes it's acceptable Jeff. It's acceptable, independent of whether you use it. Grow the fuck up. I don't care if people use it. But you and sarc purport to be against it, and you finger wag about it when someone you don't like uses it. Yet you use it regularly.

                1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                  "When I send the flower of German youth into the steel hail of the next war without feeling the slightest regret over the precious German blood that is being spilled, should I not also have the right to eliminate millions of an inferior race that multiplies like vermin?"

                  -Hitler, 1942

                  Totally fine?

                  1. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                    How fucking stupid can you possibly be jeff?

                    The fact that he used the word vermin – yeah, who gives a fuck? The actions are what matter.

                    The allies didn’t declare war on him because he said "vermin" dipshit.

                    1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      I never said dehumanizing language was a basis for declaring war. That is a strawman argument. So I take it when Hillary made her "deplorables" comment in 2016, you had no problem with it and in fact you pointed out to your right-wing pals that hey, they shouldn't get so upset about it, who gives a fuck about what she said, it's her actions that matter. Right? Yeah I don't think that is how you behaved.

                      Like with most people on the right nowadays, I think that you only get upset when bad things happen to YOU.

                    2. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "So I take it when Hillary made her “deplorables” comment in 2016, you had no problem with it"

                      I absolutely applaud her deplorables comment. I think it was a very clear statement of how she thinks about her opponents, and a rare moment of honesty. I would truly love to see more of that from these people.

                    3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      As far as hitler's rhetoric - also yes, totally fine. This man made clear, long before 1942, what he intended to do. His book was published in the 20's no? He made clear who and what he was. Isn't that good?

                    4. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      Your whole point is to clutch pearls about naughty language. Fuck off, jeff.

              2. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

                Does that mean that using dehumanizing language, by anyone for any reason and any purpose, is now acceptable because *I* do it?

                No, it doesn't (although I agree with Bertram Guilfoyle that it may well be acceptable universally). But, if you're whining about "dehumanizing language" while using it yourself, I have good reason to doubt your complaint is about dehumanizing language. A systematically accepted double standard is functionally no different from hierarchy. And I see no reason to grant you or your cronies that status.

              3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                "Let’s just suppose I’m a total and flaming hypocrite on the matter of ‘dehumanizing language’."

                We don't need to suppose. You demonstrate it regularly.

              4. JesseAz   1 year ago

                It isnt supposition. You and sarc are indeed raging hypocrites.

          2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

            "Trump talking about sending his opponents to jail is Third World strongman tactics!"

            So are not the Democrats bringing legally dubious criminal charges against Trump also not Third World Strongman Tactics?

            "Why are you only criticizing Democrats?!!!"

            That may be the brazen bit of gaslighting I have eevr seen, to turn the argument I was making completely on its head. It is completely idiotic, of course, but it does take a lot of gall.

            1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

              “Trump talking about sending his opponents to jail is Third World strongman tactics!”

              Are you capable of criticizing Trump and his use of these tactics WITHOUT referring to Democrats, Pelosi, Schumer, Biden, Hillary, Obama, etc.?

              1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                If it is wrong, then it is wrong for all, and you should not get so pissy about Democrats being called out for actually implementing the wrongful act if you believe it is wrong.

                1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                  If it is wrong, then it is wrong for all

                  So IF it is wrong for all, you should have no problem criticizing Trump for talking about it regardless of what anyone else says or does.

                  The fact that you are hesitating to do so, suggests that you don't actually believe "it is wrong for all", instead that it's only wrong when they do it to your team.

              2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                They did it first!

                1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                  So the cases against Trump should be dismissed then?

                  1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                    That is what his lawyers and defenders sure seem to be arguing. Democrats did it first so it’s ok.

                    1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      I did not ask what they think. I asked what you think.

                    2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      I think some of the cases are bullshit, while others have merit.

                      I don’t dismiss them all because “Democrats did it first so that makes it ok,” nor do I hate Trump and want to see him prosecuted for imaginary crimes.

                      Just like the false dichotomy between the current immigration system and open borders, there is plenty of room in between.

                    3. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      My issue is that Greenhut is proposing an ethical standard which only Trump is being held to, then is it an ethical standard at all? Or is it an ad hominem against a figure the political establishment reviles?

                    4. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "I don’t dismiss them all because “Democrats did it first so that makes it ok,”

                      No one here does, this is jeff's and your daily (hourly?) strawman.

                    5. SQRLSY One   1 year ago

                      “I don’t dismiss them all because “Democrats did it first so that makes it ok,”

                      Look, mentally-ethically-defective moronic dipshits, we do SNOT make progress this way!

                      Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?

                      How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:

                      Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”

                      Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”

                      Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”

                      Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?

                      (Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)

                      OJ will now Rule Us All from Beyond the Grave!!!

                    6. Michael Ejercito   1 year ago

                      They openly did it first and were openly excused.

              3. JesseAz   1 year ago

                You and sarc are not doing this dumbass.

                You and sarc are ignoring and applauding the actions currently happening while only attacking theoretical actions in the future.

                Again. This is why you two are raging hypocrites.

                1. SQRLSY One   1 year ago

                  All who do SNOT Adore and Worshit Der JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer, are are raging hypocrites!!!! Der JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer HAS SPOKEN!!!

      2. Super Scary   1 year ago

        For the millionth time, fucking yes.

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          So if some Democrat goes and murders everyone they can find with a TRUMP sticker on their truck, is it ok for Republicans to go out and murder anyone they find behind the wheel of a Prius?

          After all, a Democrats did it first. That means it's ok.

          1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

            If that happens, then you do not only charge Republicans for murder, and ignore what the Democrat has done.

            And it is fascinating that this has happened. The person who shot up the GOP Congressional softball team practice was a Bernie Sanders supporter. This was largely ignored and it was insisted that Sanders should not be held responsible for the violence done in his name. The attacks on crisis pregnancy centers are not held against pro abortion organizations.

            1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

              Why charge anyone with murder? Isn't murder okay if Democrats do it first?

              1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                Can you really be this stupid?

                1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  So far every criminal act committed by Trump and his followers has been excused because Democrats did it first.

                  Where's the line?

                  1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                    That is what is referred to as a legal precedent and equal treatment under law.

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      If you part of a group of speeding cars, but you’re the only one who gets pulled over, does it matter that the others got away with it? Is “They were doing it too” a legal defense? No. It’s whining about fairness, but more importantly it’s also admitting guilt.

                      Trump and his defenders crying “They did it first” is no different.

                    2. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      So the next time you are caught speeding on the highway, and the officer gives you a ticket, make sure to tell the officer that you are entitled to break the law because he didn't also catch every single other speeder out there.

                    3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      Except, he did catch other speeders, he just let off the ones he wanted to.

                      Why do you two pretend that you can't understand that this is the issue?

                    4. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      So if the police are only pulling over people for speeding who are driving Fords, and letting everyone else speed as much as they want, then that is a just implementation of the law to you?

                    5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      So if the police are only pulling over people for speeding who are driving Fords, and letting everyone else speed as much as they want, then that is a just implementation of the law to you?

                      Not just. But also not the same as "speeding is not illegal if it means not everyone is caught".

                    6. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      So if the police are only pulling over people for speeding who are driving Fords, and letting everyone else speed as much as they want, then that is a just implementation of the law to you?

                      Police often single out cars with out of state plates. Pointing that out isn't a legal defense.

                    7. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      Of course we are not talking about a “law” here, but an ethical standard, which, if only one party is held to, is not much of a standard.

                    8. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "But also not the same as “speeding is not illegal if it means not everyone is caught”.

                      No one here says that.

                    9. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      Democrats have never even pretended to have ethical standards.

              2. damikesc   1 year ago

                The point is that the Republican WOULD be charged while the Democrat largely is unlikely to face the same thing.

                I do not know why you seem to support a two-tiered justice system, but you clearly seem to.

                1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  Meanwhile you'd be demanding the Republican go free, rather than demanding both be charged.

                  1. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                    While you are demanding the Republican be jailed for suggesting it while the Democrat is allowed to do it with no repercussions.

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      I'm not demanding a thing. I'm just a spectator.

                    2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      Bullshit. You are arguing for a double standard. If you just a spectator, then just spectate, but you do not get to bring nonsense arguments out and then hide behind "I ain't nobody".

                    3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "I’m just a spectator posing as a spectator."

                      Fixed, with your typical M.O.

                    4. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      I’m not arguing for anything. I’m pointing out what I see, which is Trump and his defenders claiming that “They did it first” excuses all criminal acts by him and his followers. It’s no different than a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar telling his mommy that his brother did it first, and then crying all the way to his room.

                    5. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      “I’m not arguing for anything.”

                      Stop bullshitting.

                    6. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      Those who did it first should be punished for it, and prevented from continuing to do it? Correct? At least criticized for doing it?

                      If not, then it puts the lie to the idea that it is wrong.

                      "I’m not arguing for anything. I’m pointing out what I see,.."

                      That is the definition of an argument.

                    7. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      That is the definition of an argument.

                      You're telling me that I'm arguing that Republicans should go to prison.

                      I'm saying fuck you I never said that. Go play with Jesse.

                    8. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      "You’re telling me that I’m arguing that Republicans should go to prison."

                      You have a remarkable capacity for putting words into other people's mouths.

                      What I get from your argument is that asking for Democrats to be held to any standards whatsoever, much less the same standards Republicans are held to is wrong.

                    9. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      You have a remarkable capacity for putting words into other people’s mouths.

                      Ummm.....

                      Mickey Rat 1 hour ago
                      Flag Comment
                      Mute User
                      While you are demanding the Republican be jailed for suggesting it while the Democrat is allowed to do it with no repercussions.

                    10. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      What I get from your argument is that asking for Democrats to be held to any standards whatsoever, much less the same standards Republicans are held to is wrong.

                      That would be a great takeaway if I was talking about Democrats. But I'm not. I'm talking about The Trump Defense "They did it first so it's ok" which is not only childish, but an admission of guilt.

                  2. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                    I am arguing for equal treatment.

                    1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      That is fine. The idea of equal treatment is predicated on the idea that a particular act is wrong regardless of who does it. So then why is it so hard for you to admit it when Trump does something wrong, REGARDLESS of what anyone else says or does?

                    2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      If someone is doing and saying the same thing, and being allowed to do it without reprimand or criticism, then does anyone really think that it is wrong?

                    3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      I have said repeatedly that I am a tepid trump supporter at best. I don't give a fuck about him saying vermin, just like I don't give a fuck if you say it.

                      This is like arguing with a goldfish.

                    4. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      If someone is doing and saying the same thing, and being allowed to do it without reprimand or criticism, then does anyone really think that it is wrong?

                      Hence the "murder" comment. "If Democrats are allowed to get away with murder, then does anyone really think that murder is wrong?"

                      IS murder wrong?

                    5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                      I have said repeatedly that I am a tepid trump supporter at best. I don’t give a fuck about him saying vermin, just like I don’t give a fuck if you say it.

                      This argument is beyond his 'vermin' comments. How about all of the other awful things he has said and done? Can you bring yourself to criticize any of those REGARDLESS of what others have said or done?

                    6. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

                      If Democrats are regularly committing murder, and are even being praised for it, while a Republican expresses a desire to kill someone, and is roundly denounced for advocating murder, then do the people who denounced the Republican really believe murder is wrong if they have never said anything against the murderous Democrats?

                    7. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      “How about all of the other awful things he has said and done?”

                      Such as? I’m sure you and sarc have a list of atrocities to bring to the international criminal court, but you mostly seem to focus on trivial bullshit.

                      The tweets and other mundane nonsense that you and sarc clutch pearls about regularly – no I don’t care even a tiny bit.

                      The maralago documents – no I don’t really care – common practice for prior presidents (not so much for prior senators and vice presidents like Joe, but I still don’t really care).

                      J6, don’t care, and I regard it mostly as overblown bullshit and mostly non-crimes being prosecuted.

                      The main failure of trump that comes to mind is that he negotiated with the taliban the doha agreement, he even wanted to bring them to camp david. Disgusting and repugnant. Now he did (narrowly) avoid biden’s fiasco in Afghanistan, mainly by listening to the few voices warning against it.

                  3. damikesc   1 year ago

                    I'm demanding EQUALITY in justice.

                    You are not. Jeff is not.

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      If you were then you'd be calling for Trump's prosecutions to continue and for Democrats to be punished.

                      But you're not. You're calling for Trump to be allowed to do whatever he wants because there's always someone you can point to and say "They did it first so it's ok!"

                    2. damikesc   1 year ago

                      Prosecuted for what?

                      Paying back a loan?
                      Honoring an NDA?
                      Disputing vote totals?
                      Maintaining non-classified documents in his residence?

                      I'm not seeing, precisely, what I am supposed to demand he keep getting prosecuted for.

                    3. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      "you’d be calling for Trump’s prosecutions to continue and for Democrats to be punished."

                      Only If there are truly crimes involved. Most (all?) of the trump charges are nonsense and should have been dropped.

                    4. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      Saying "Fuck you I do what I want" when asked to return classified material.

                      Instigating the J6 riots.

                      Attempted election fraud in Georgia.

                    5. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                      Sarc again with the strawman about the documents.

                    6. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      sarcasmic 58 mins ago
                      Flag Comment
                      Mute User
                      Saying “Fuck you I do what I want” when asked to return classified material.

                      Sarc claims to not have a double standard. Claims he isnt making arguments. But then argues for why a double standard should be held to excuse others and not Trump despite the actual law not having any mention of return of documents.

                      This is why Jeff and sarc are considered dishonest leftists.

                  4. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                    "I’m talking about The Trump Defense “They did it first so it’s ok” which is not only childish, but an admission of guilt."

                    It's the strawman you use to pretend that you, jeff, and spb are the only sane men on this forum.

              3. JesseAz   1 year ago

                This is rich coming from you and sarc who applaud the murder of Ashley Babbitt.

                Youre trying to equate actions to words.

                You never actually even criticize democrats for what THEY ARE DOING.

                Even in this thread the hypocrisy is clear.

      3. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

        sarc, your comments are usually less overtly oversimplistic. The article is about the mutual descent of the two tribes in power into a spiral of madness. Both of them. Tit for tat and whataboutism are other approaches to double standards. We can criticize the double standards without the implication that one side is justified by the abuses of the other.

      4. Zeb   1 year ago

        “Democrats did it first so it’s ok.”

        It doesn't make it OK. But Republicans would be kind of stupid not to use the same tactics if they are effective. I hate that that is the case, but politics is a dirty game. Is there really a virtue in sitting there and letting yourself get steamrolled on principle? I don't really know, but it seems silly to expect that that is what Republicans and Trump would do.

    2. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

      To certain extent, this can be seen as tit for tat, by Trump.

      We have a 4 year history to analyze of what Trump actually did when he was President. While he speculated about such behaviors as prosecuting his critics, he either did not, or was prevented from doing so. What has changed in the intervening 4 years?

      1. JesseAz   1 year ago

        Jeff and sarcs talking points from media and the left to keep defending democrat vad acts while projecting future bad acts and ignoring the 4 years those bad acts did not occur.

        1. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

          If Trump gets elected, he MIGHT do to us what we've been doing to him already.

          -Why aren't you condemning Trump for saying he might do that?
          *I'm pointing out that the other side is already doing that!
          -That's WhAtAboUtiSm. Why are you talking about the Democrats? You think it's okay to weaponize the justice system to go against political enemies?
          *No, I think weaponization of the justice system is wrong either way. But the Dems are DOING IT RIGHT NOW.
          -We're talking about Trump, stop trying to change the subject.

          (I could go on, but this is my summary of the above conversation.)

  8. TJJ2000   1 year ago

    Practically ALL the misinformation is coming from Government.

    So of course the government wants to censor. Precisely because their complete BS is not selling.

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      Practically ALL the misinformation is coming from Government.

      And from people who seek government power. Like the last president.

      1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

        Self-Projection 101. How the laundry list of censorship tactics by Biden and the Democrats gets blame shifted, constantly and endlessly.

      2. damikesc   1 year ago

        Yes, Trump is the only person seeking government power. Not, say, the current guy in office. HE is pure, dammit!

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          The current guy is a Democrat and he did it first, so it's ok when Trump and Republicans do it.

          1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

            De-Regulating the Power =/= seeking power.

            Will there ever be a time when blind-sheep check there propaganda indoctrination levels for actual correlations? Apparently not. Precisely why they're "blind sheep" or "useful idiots".

          2. damikesc   1 year ago

            You are the guy who specifically called out the "last guy".

            You seem to think it is OK for Democrats do it.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              I'm not the one saying it's ok.

              1. damikesc   1 year ago

                You kinda are, skippy,

                1. Bertram Guilfoyle   1 year ago

                  Sarc doesn't make arguments, just observations.

                2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  Who is saying "Look over there! They did it first! That means it's ok!" no matter what "it" happens to be?

                  Not me bub.

                  1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    Under Trump... Republicans like Trump and Flynn and his campaign team were targeted. No democrats were targeted.

                    Under Biden... Trump, J6ers, parents, catholics, former Trump administration was targeted. No democrats were targeted.

                    Yet you continue to yell and scream both sides are equal.

                    Youre fucking retarded. Youre a fucking leftist.

                    1. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

                      I don't think he's a leftist or retarded, even though he often comes across that way. No, he has some libertarian grounding (though that doesn't make him the one true libertarian because he took a political compass test, lol), but his hatred for Trump and even those who even just passively support him as the lesser of two evils has caused him to throw out many of his principles. He's obsessed with Trump and MAGA. I can maybe count on on hand the number of times in the last year+ that he hasn't brought up Trump in the comments section of an article, especially articles that have nothing to do with Trump.

                      It's funny because he says that MAGA people are all about the leader. Yet he will come out as against something, not because of the principle of the matter, but because it is something Trump is for, or it gives him the opportunity to shit on Trump and anyone who's even considering voting for the guy. He even admitted that he'd rather violate his principles than agree with an icky MAGA person.

                      It's constant projection from him. The best is the constant complaint that you are inventing his argument in your head and projecting it onto him. He does that all the time. And then there is the ideas, not personal attacks line he used to parrot. But at the drop of a hat he will attack the person he's arguing with.

          3. JesseAz   1 year ago

            I am always amazed when you think you have an amazingly intelligent rebutted and spam it while everyone else thinks your rebuttal is retarded.

  9. Longtobefree   1 year ago

    Colonel Nathan R. Jessup has the best response to this kind of propaganda.

  10. Longtobefree   1 year ago

    Actually:
    "misinformation" = true facts I don't like.
    "disinformation" = true facts that prove my lies are, in fact, lies.

    1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

      "There is no misinformation. There is only information and those too stupid or lazy to verify it."
      -Me, a long time ago

      1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

        I disagreed recently on another thread: "There is no misinformation, only people who don't know they're wrong and liars. And then there are opinions and people who disagree with those opinions."

        1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   1 year ago

          I don't see that as disagreement. My quote is from the perspective of information itself being neutral. Yours is from the perspective of the person providing it.

  11. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

    The focus on Trump here is ridiculous. Does Trump traffic in half-truths and BS? Sure. But, his half-truths and BS tend to be rather blatantly obvious half-truths and BS that we can easily discard or take with a grain of salt. What's wildly more pernicious is the systematic dishonesty being peddled by the Establishment and their water-carriers in the media. We've seen lie after lie after lie peddled to us as absolute gospel, from Russian collusion, to Hunter Biden's laptop, to the wet market hypothesis, to "safe and effective", to "insurrection", to Jussie Smollett, to the Covington High School kid. I could easily go on for hours with additional examples. And we've seen any dissension silenced and branded "misinformation" or "disinformation". Ironically, even the recognition of any systematic policy to do just this was branded "misinformation" or "disinformation" until the Twitter Files proved conclusively that this was precisely what was happening.

    Why do Trump's claims of a rigged 2024 election or federal participation in January 6 as a false flag still have currency. Simple - we have no more reason to trust you or the rest of the Establishment media than we do Infowars or Conservative Treehouse. Their relative credibility with much of the population has risen because the Establishment media and the Establishment in general has squandered any credibility it might have previously had. They might be feeding us BS, but we know y'all in the Establishment are just as inclined to feed us BS, as well. Just with a different agenda. At this point, if the election were stolen or if January 6 was a false flag, I don't believe for a minute that the Establishment media, including Greenhut and much of the Reason staff, would be saying or behaving any differently from the way they are.

    The answer to "misinformation" or "disinformation"? To borrow a comment from Christ, "Remove the log from your own eye before worrying about the mote in your neighbor's."

    1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

      More importantly, Trump supporters don’t care whether he tells the truth or achieves any of his promises. They’ve been abandoned by both parties for so long that they’re only interested in maddening and infuriating the pols that abandoned them and the rust belt long ago. Burn it down, they couldn’t care less. Unfortunately, they may achieve their heart's desire this time around.

      1. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

        Unfortunately, Trump opponents don't really care if they're being told the truth, either. They're more committed to preserving the supremacy of a mostly corrupt establishment than they are in ensuring that that establishment doesn't, in fact, deserve to be burned down.

        1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

          ^BINGO^ "preserving the supremacy" ... of ... "our democracy" ([WE] gangsters RULE!) a corrupted establishment of governing in a Constitutional Republic.

      2. American Mongrel   1 year ago

        They're still scarred from the war crimes clinton and reno committed in the 90s against the last right wingers that actually stood up for themselves.

      3. TJJ2000   1 year ago

        Care to define all those lies Trump supporters don’t care about or are all those baseless assertions suppose to be automatic truths within the TDS-cult?

        And to go one step further. ‘Burn’ down what? If the answer is the growing Democratic [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire and restore a USA then you are 100% correct.

        I’m a Trump supporter and I’ve always carried the opinion the TDS-cults main complaint was Trump LIMITED their Nazi-Government. I never pushed that much because it was mostly just a hypothesis. Then just the other day I look up the DNC platform (which is literally a hate Trump manifesto) and guess what? Right at the very top, three paragraphs in, the evidence shows up, “The bill has come due on the Trump Administration’s hollowing out of our public institutions”

        They literally hate Trump for De-Regulating their growing Nazi-Empire.

    2. mtrueman   1 year ago

      “But, his half-truths and BS tend to be rather blatantly obvious half-truths and BS that we can easily discard or take with a grain of salt.”

      That’s not how cults work. The words of the leader are taken very seriously. Not to be accepted or rejected at whim.

      "Why do Trump’s claims of a rigged 2024 election or federal participation in January 6 as a false flag still have currency."

      Because people still believe it. The cultists who follow Trump.

      1. Lester75   1 year ago

        This^^ The Trump cultists believe Trump. They support his desire for revenge and will follow him no matter what he does. His words have power. You can't excuse his bluster saying 'nobody believes that'.

        1. Jefferson Paul   1 year ago

          Trump might do what the Dems are doing against him now, so let's put all our focus on what Trump might do and ignore the current reality.

  12. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

    Personally, I blame RPG. Two whole generations now have grown up immersed in highly realistic alternate universes and they now cannot approach the real world without the subtle unconscious bias that they can keep trying different responses to bad outcomes over and over again until the universe bends to their wishes. It doesn't matter to the angry right that Trump hasn't implemented a single coherent policy, accomplished a single one of his promises or made a single true statement for over eight years now. It doesn't matter to the angry left that Biden is a senile old corrupt career politician who can't tie his own shoelaces without a suggestion from his staff and assistance from his Whitehouse valet. No, when it's "Game Over" from the last election, there's always another election, and THIS time we'll surely get it right!

    1. mad.casual   1 year ago

      It doesn’t matter to the angry right that Trump hasn’t implemented a single coherent policy, accomplished a single one of his promises or made a single true statement for over eight years now.

      Lemme guess, you also used to be an adventurous libertarian until the Trump campaign shot you in the knee.

  13. AT   1 year ago

    The basic rule of thumb in America is people can pretty much say or write what they choose.

    Unless it's about covid vaccines, climate change, or grammatically correct pronoun use.

  14. Earth-based Human Skeptic   1 year ago

    'The government isn't doing the censoring.'

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Oh, are you serious?

    1. mad.casual   1 year ago

      Holy Jesus! He uses Musk's purchase of Twitter, entirely ignoring the Twitter and Facebook files, in order to run "MUH PRIVUTS KORPORAYSHUN!" cover *and* lie for the administration's manipulation of the media?

      I said I wouldn't laugh when they shot him. That doesn't mean I can't have a big grin.

  15. Reason4thinking   1 year ago

    Norms. What is it today with Reason opinion writers and the topic of norms. A satire television show, Curb Your Enthusiasm, did nothing but lampoon the concept of social and cultural norms. The show got it right, my norm can be viewed by you as noxious behavior. Something that libertarians should know much about.

    Codifying norms is needed. A book of etiquette, the Ten Commandments, a law or a regulation. Those are norms put into writing. What norm does disinformation not break? Disinformation is lying. Period.

    The complaint in this article is one of implementation. One persons lie is another persons truth of conspiracy. A persons conclusion based on data at hand is at first an opinion but then becomes a hard fact and not subject to challenge or reinterpretation. If there is a norm to be (re)established, it is being able to accept challenges to a world view. In the absence of that simple thinking skill, the "norm" becomes disinformation. Anything that confirms your world view is true, even when it is not.

    1. Zeb   1 year ago

      The problem is that things are being labeled "disinformation" when they are still legitimate subjects of debate. There are tons of things we don't know the truth of with any certainty. Being wrong or not agreeing with the majority is not lying. Of course there is lots of lying too. But an awful lot of it is genuine disagreement.

  16. mad.casual   1 year ago

    Combat Disinformation With Better Norms, Not More Laws

    "It's not our or *my* fault I've been consistently wrong to the point of outright complicity in every major sociopolitical event in the last 10 yrs., malevolently idiotically wrong to the point of telling coal miners that they should learn to code and many of my edgier peers are starting to think and say that we've been willingly co-opted scumbag shills. It's all *you* deplorable people and *your* wretched norms that are to blame!" - Steve Greenhut

    I'll try not to laugh when you get put up against a wall and shot, Greenhut, you dickbag, but I can't make any promises.

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