A Florida Judge Says $165,000 in Fines for 3 Minor Code Violations Is Not 'Excessive'
Sandy Martinez faces that bill because of driveway cracks, a storm-damaged fence, and cars parked on her own property that illegally touched her lawn.

A Florida judge yesterday ruled against a Lantana homeowner who faces more than $165,000 in fines for three minor code violations that harmed no one. Sandy Martinez, who is represented by the Institute for Justice (I.J.), argued that the financially crippling demand, which stems from driveway cracks, a storm-damaged fence, and cars that were parked partially on her own lawn, violates the Florida Constitution's ban on excessive fines and its guarantee of due process. But Palm Beach County Circuit Court Judge Luis Delgado granted the city's motion for summary judgment, concluding that the fines were not "grossly disproportionate."
Martinez hopes to persuade Florida's Fourth District Court of Appeal that Delgado is wrong about that. "Six-figure fines for parking on your own property are outrageous," says I.J. attorney Mike Greenberg. "The Florida Constitution's Excessive Fines Clause was designed to stop precisely this sort of abuse—to prevent people from being fined into poverty for trivial violations. The court's opinion renders those bedrock protections a dead letter. We will appeal."
Martinez's debt to the city began accumulating in 2013, when she was cited for cracks in her driveway. For a single mother with a modest income who was living from one paycheck to another, the cost of laying a new driveway was hard to manage. But in the meantime, daily fines of $75 continued to accrue, eventually reaching a total of $16,125 with interest—"far greater than the cost of an entirely new driveway," she notes in the lawsuit that she filed against the city in February 2021.
In 2015, Martinez was cited for a fence that had been knocked down by a storm. Again, the repairs necessary to bring her into compliance were more expensive than she could immediately afford. While she waited for her insurance company to pay her claim for the fence, daily fines of $125 accumulated, eventually hitting a total of $47,375 with interest—"several times the cost of the repair and substantially more than the cost of a completely new fence," according to her complaint.
Finally, Martinez was cited in 2019 for improperly parking cars on her own property. At the time, she was living with her three children, her mother, and her sister. Martinez, her two adult children, and her sister all had cars that they used to travel from home to work and back. Her street has no curbs and is not wide enough to accommodate parked cars. Since Martinez and her relatives could not legally and safely park on the street, the driveway seemed like the only viable option. When all four cars were parked at Martinez's home, two of them sometimes extended slightly beyond the driveway, which is flanked by her lawn and a walkway.
As Martinez's complaint notes, "parking on one's own front yard space, even a tiny bit, is illegal in Lantana." The penalty is $250 per day and fines continue to accrue until a city inspector verifies that the violation has been corrected. Although Martinez says she promptly fixed the parking issue by making sure no car was touching her grass and left a voicemail message with the code enforcement office requesting a compliance check, no inspector came by. Unbeknownst to her, the fines continued to accumulate for more than a year.
By the time the city deigned to recognize that the parking problem had been corrected, Martinez's complaint says, the total bill was $101,750, "nearly four times her annual income." Martinez understandably thinks "it's ridiculous that Lantana would charge me over $100,000 for parking on my own grass that I paid for."
The city's concern about cars parked on grass seems to be strangely selective. City officials suggested that Martinez could resolve the issue by parking one or more cars on the grassy area between the sidewalk and the street. She rejected that option because she lives at the intersection of two busy streets where car accidents are common. "Just a month or two after the case was filed," Greenberg says, "there was a three-car crash" at that intersection, and photos showed that "if a car had been parked where the city suggested that she park, it would have been severely damaged." But as far as the city was concerned, parking entirely on publicly owned grass was perfectly fine, while parking on your own lawn, even slightly, was intolerable.
Greenberg notes another counterintuitive distinction that the city draws between parking on public vs. private property. If you illegally park a car on the street, that violation triggers a one-time fine; the city cannot fine you again unless it verifies that you have failed to move the car. But if you illegally park a car on your own property, Greenberg says, "they just assume that that violation continues indefinitely until an inspector comes out and confirms that it's not ongoing anymore." And meanwhile, the daily fines pile up.
That approach, I.J. argues, violates the right to due process. In effect, Greenberg says, the city is "treating each day as its own independent offense" without "proof that the offense actually happened."
In view of Martinez's financial circumstances, the city eventually offered to let her settle her bill by paying $25,000. But at the time, Greenberg says, that was "over half of her annual income," and "that offer was only good for about three months." Because "she didn't come up with that $25,000 in three months," he says, the city again demanded the full amount of $165,250.
Those fines are not excessive, Delgado ultimately concludes in his 10-page order. But before he addresses that question, he faults Martinez for failing to attend code enforcement hearings. Greenberg notes that the hearings were scheduled "on weeknights at about 5:30 p.m.," which made them difficult for Martinez to attend given her work and parenting responsibilities. In any case, he says, the only point of the hearings was to determine whether the violations had occurred, which Martinez did not contest.
There were indisputably cracks in Martinez's driveway, her fence definitely was knocked down by a storm, and she admitted that car tires had impermissibly touched her grass. Her argument was that the resulting penalties were incommensurate with those violations.
If that is what Martinez thought, Delgado says, she should have challenged the fines in the circuit court within 30 days of "the final decision's execution," as required by law. Greenberg says holding Martinez to that deadline "doesn't make sense when the fines are continuing to run and we don't know what the final amount is going to be." For the driveway and fence violations, the fines kept accumulating "until she [could] save up the money to fix the problem." And Martinez says she thought she had taken care of the parking violation until she discovered, more than a year later, that no one from the city had verified her compliance. By then, the initially modest bill had ballooned into six figures.
Delgado was unfazed by those complications. Because Martinez missed the 30-day window, he says, she gave up her right to argue that the city's code enforcement is unconstitutional as applied to her, which would amount to "a collateral attack upon an order concerning matters that could have been properly raised on appeal." As Delgado sees it, that means Martinez can only argue that Lantana's code enforcement system is unconstitutional on its face, meaning "no set of circumstances exist" in which application of the ordinance would be constitutional. The significance of that distinction is unclear, however, because Delgado does eventually seem to consider whether Lantana's system of fines is unconstitutional as applied to Martinez.
"Fines are excessive when they shock the conscience and are unreasonably harsh or oppressive penalties in proportion to the violations to be redressed," Delgado writes, but "substantial deference should be given to the legislature's determination of an appropriate fine." The fines imposed on Martinez, he says, "were well within the range deemed appropriate."
Even considering the accumulation of fines and interest, Delgado says, the sum that Martinez owes is "not grossly disproportionate to her offense." He argues that "the fines are proportionate to the harm caused in the sense that the violations have been enduring for a number of years." In other words, Delgado thinks it is reasonable to penalize Martinez for her inability to make repairs she could not immediately afford and for her mistake in thinking that the parking violation had been resolved.
Delgado mentions Martinez's claim that Lantana's ordinance "violates due process because it establishes limitless fines that led to the specific fines at issue." But he does not address the argument that Lantana imposes those "limitless fines" by presuming ongoing code violations without proof of them.
Having addressed Martinez's specific claims of hardship and disproportionality after saying it was too late for her to raise them, Delgado applies the stricter requirements for a facial challenge. "Though the fines imposed are admittedly high, the code and statute itself are not inherently arbitrary, discriminatory, or oppressive," he says, and Martinez "has failed to establish that there is no set of circumstances in which the acts would be valid."
Greenberg thinks Delgado's deference to legislative wisdom is misplaced in the context of a constitutional challenge like this one. If the legislature's determination of appropriate fines is the only test, he wonders, "why have constitutional protections in the first place?" The whole point of those guarantees, he notes, is to "protect us from legislative encroachments."
Fines like these "are not just abusive," I.J. attorney Ari Bargil says. "They are also unconstitutional. We look forward to continuing this battle on Sandy's behalf to ensure that all Floridians can be free from astronomical fines like those imposed by Lantana in this case."
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Government is just another name for when we all squat together.
An alternative headline would be, “This Homeowner declined to fix up her eye-sore property for 11 years, and now its going to cost her”
I think this homeowner has a good case against the city for continuing to fine her for a parking infraction that she had already fixed. But most of the fines stem from her having a code violation since 2013 that she acknowledged but never addressed.
As is usual, Sullum’s shallow reporting stops at “Government bad, m’Kay” and fails to really explore this from a libertarian perspective. This is the problem, generally, with much of Reason’s coverage of the government. They fail to appreciate that often the government is a poor solution to a general problem: that people need to agree upon a mechanism for solving problems with commons- such as the aesthetic appeal of a neighborhood.
Make no mistake, absent the Government, some mechanism would likely be in place to make sure neighbors can all maintain their environment. That might be an HOA/Covenant or it could be neighbors visiting punitive and perhaps arbitrary actions on her themselves.
If she lived in Libertopia, the homeowner likely wouldn’t have racked up $100k in fines. No, the Covenant she belonged to would have likely taken her to court and claimed the damages, or had her house seized.
So in that context, is the continued racking up of fines for TEN YEARS really that egregious?
Boy, you’re cold.
In my Libertopia no violations occurred. Eyesore or not. Her property, not yours, and it’s none of your goddamned business what it looks like.
Absolutely. You don’t like her “eyesore”? Pay her to fix up her property your standards. Negotiate with her. Everything has a price. Don’t go crying to government because someone else thinks your price is too low.
In libertopia property neighbors have a right to all agree on a set of rules and enforce them. She agreed to the rules when she moved in to the neighborhood.
Citation needed. Where's the contract?
It's the social contract. By choosing to enter someone else's area, city,state, country you agree to abide by the rules.
Eat a giant economy sized bag of dicks, slaver.
Good God you are fucking stupid.
Social contract, my ass. The government is the aggressor here.
-jcr
"Citation needed. Where’s the contract?"
Shirley you are being intentionally obtuse.
In Libertopia, there would certainly be enclaves (especially rurally) of people living in totally ungoverned areas. Good for them.
But that will not be the default condition. The default condition will be planned communities because that is what people want. I am happily libertarian, but when I started raising kids, I realized that the charm of neighbors up all night smoking drugs and letting their pitbulls run wild wears out pretty quickly. The market for orderly, well run, planned communities will far far outstrip the market for burning-man enclaves.
And that's ok. In Libertopia, you can have both. But a person like the woman above- who moved into a jurisdiction with existing laws and then flaunted them for a decade- will be limited in their options to find a housing community that allows "anything goes" and she may find that it is very difficult to live in such an area.
To that extent, it is highly likely that her situation will be similar to above- she moves into an area, not really paying attention to the rules governing her property, then fails to follow those rules. The difference will be that instead of a government that neglects its responsibilities- especially in ghettos- and allows this travesty of fines to develop, you will have a patchwork of municipalities that competition keeps generally small enough to be workable.
The market for orderly, well run, planned communities will far far outstrip the market for burning-man enclaves.
And if you live in those burbclaves you can always count on the Deliverator to get you a Pizza in 30 minutes or less, and if it takes longer Uncle Enzo will land on your lawn the next morning to personally apologize and give you a trip to Italy.
You're my Hiro.
Tall fences make good neighbors. In my libertopia, people both mind their own business and respect the property of others. Keep your shit on your side of the fence and we're all good.
Yes but this is a preference not a moral imperative. I get that your preference is to move out into a place with lots of lawn that you can yell at kids to get off of. In Libertopia, you will probably have that option. But there will be far more gated communities and covenant communities where people have voluntarily chosen to buy into a system where they abrogate many property rights in return for strict controls that will prevent (say) their neighbors from operating a strip club in their garage. We see these revealed preferences ALL OVER. In my area, everyone wants to live in the covenant communities, not the "no restrictions" communities nearby. These preferences are expressed in significant premiums for the houses, despite having the same schools and other services.
This homeowner bought into such a place- a community where there are strict rules on what she could do with her property. We can argue about whether they were your preferred rule or not, but what cannot be argued is that 1) those rules were knowable before she purchased the house, 2) she acknowledged that she was violating those rules 3) she failed to correct many of those violations, and 4) many of the expenses she incurred are not due to the violation but her unwillingness to correct those violations for YEARS.
When my wife died, I failed to renew the tags on her car. Which was parked in my driveway and the fined me 10k for not addressing it quickly. I lived in NW Tampa and never agreed to the terms. Now I am sure there is a book that you can read, with all county reg's but odds are she never signed anything. If the fines were issued from an HOA the home would already have been foreclosed
"In my Libertopia no violations occurred. Eyesore or not. Her property, not yours, and it’s none of your goddamned business what it looks like."
This is the shallow thinking that is endemic at Reason, I'm afraid.
This idea that millions of people will live in a dense urban environment with NO encumbrances on their property isn't even fantasy- it is a complete nonstarter. People will prefer to buy homes where their neighbor can't up and start a strip club on a whim. (Or where their neighbor can let their house turn into an obnoxiously neglected shithole.)
And developers will know this, and they will buy up this land and develop housing communities with covenants that prevent this type of neglect. The fact that this homeowner has been able to neglect her property to the detriment of her neighbors for years is the real failure of government- a government that was content to rack up $$$$ than actually fix the problem at hand.
What detriment of neighbors, please? The view? Do you own the view from your property? Property value? You do not own your property value, either. Some things are external.
"What detriment of neighbors, please? The view? Do you own the view from your property? Property value? You do not own your property value, either. Some things are external."
What makes you think these things are exclusive. Of course some things are external. They still have a negative impact on the value of your house.
Property owners insure against detrimental losses ALL the time. This is the purpose of disaster insurance. It is the purpose of funding fire departments and security services. And it is the purpose of joining a covenant community.
The whole point of a covenant community is that the owners recognize they DON'T control their neighbors. The developer of the community uses THEIR PROPERTY RIGHTS to create a community that has certain conditions. One must agree to those conditions in order to buy into the community.
You may not own your neighbor's view, but you do own a share of the covenant that they bought into. And the Covenant DOES have the power to regulate that neighbor's view. And it is all 100% libertarian. I can't believe how hard this is for you people to understand.
As I understand it, the woman's lawyers are not challenging the government's right to fine violators, they're challenging the *amount* of fines the woman got, as well as the process (or lack thereof) for ascertaining the existence of continuing violations.
What would procedures look like in Libertopia? Who knows, and in any event it's not relevant to the planet on which we happen to live.
You have a good point here. It is probably relevant to consider how much the property has appreciated in 10 years to assess if the fine is reasonable. A quick search says median home price in Palm Beach County FL is $500K. I would guess that she has experienced an increase in property value in excess of her current fines. She could have borrowed against that value or sold the home to pay her fines. That may have swayed the judges opinion.
You should be able to sue neighbors who do things to their property that increase your property value since it increases what you have to pay in property tax. (I'm half joking here. But only half.)
Yes, it is only half a joke. A parks beat up cars on his property; neighbor B complains it lowers B's property value. Then C on the other side of B puts a lot of work into a fancy garden, beautiful lawn, fresh coat of paint. How much is B volunteering to pay C for raising B's property value? How much does A owe B for increasing A's property value?
Fuck that noise. Work out something a la Coase: bargain with your neighbors. How much does B pay A to fancy up A's place to B's liking? How much does B pay C to avoid tarting up B's place to C's liking?
Stop resorting to government enforcement of your taste against everyone of difference taste. Man up! Take responsibility yourself for negotiating, cooperatively, with your neighbors. Stop siccing government on them because they won't do your bidding for free.
Only problem with "not using government" is that your entire example is predicated on government -- the increase in property taxes from increased home values in the neighborhood.
Getting all the way back to libertopia is like a fucking onion. Layer, layer, layer, layer, and eventually you end up with tears in your eyes.
Often Property Taxes aren’t the biggest issue with property values going up. It’s the insurance.
My mortgage has gone from $1100 to $1400 in two years. Because we bought in on a short sale and this area is booming. Despite having a fixed rate mortgage and despite switching to cheaper insurance.
Unless you’re retiring and moving to completely different state this isn’t the sort of economy where you can really take advantage of increased value, because everything has gone up. And I got 20+ more years to pay on this thing.
With yearly escrow short falls of $1500 the profit you can make on the investment erodes away eventually. So it’s definitely a mixed bag unless you have an exit strategy.
Getting all the way back to libertopia is like a fucking onion. Layer, layer, layer, layer, and eventually you end up with tears in your eyes.
A metaphor so good it made me cry.
You would not need to resort to government if people just agree to rules ahead of time, with an agreement as to how those rules would be arbitrated. Which is what would happen in Libertopia.
This is why the case is so silly. Because this homeowner would have been equally sanctioned in a libertopia. She would have bought a house in one of thousands of planned communities. And she would have therefore agreed to certain rules, and when she failed to uphold them, she'd have been taken to court and assessed damages. The main difference is that the HOA enforcing their rules would be self-interested enough to do more than just add zeroes to a tab that they were never going to collect.
Try just looking at Lantana.
Assuming the one side of the story we get is correct:
Would seem not just to violate the Florida Law but more fundamental cruel and unusual and takings as well.
Even if we were talking about an HOA or a CCnA, they wouldn’t just be able to say “You incurred a violation and we’re fining you until such time as we get around to not fining you whether the violation is corrected or not.” The contract would be unconscionable/unenforceable.
IMHO, the court should have said, "if you're going to impose such steep fines, then the City should send someone out every day and confirm continued non-compliance, NOT see it once and assume guilt until you get around to confirming it fixed" This assume guilt and have to prove innocence - where else is that not legal?
And this is what I said she had a case on. Again, Sullum's reporting is so shallow that we don't get anything other than her word that she totally fixed the problem right away. Sure she spent years neglecting her house, but she totally called and left a message about fixing the cars parked on her lawn.
If she can provide proof that she did that, I completely agree that she has a very strong case. And even if she doesn't have proof, I can see an argument for putting the burden of proof on the Government here.
But my main point was on the other infractions- which she left sitting for 10 years. Sure, they may be minor infractions, just like you might put a "Minor" car repair on your credit card. Just like you might have a minor laceration in your leg. These things become much more than "minor" when you let them sit. Is the government over-reacting? Sure...but she is not without any fault here.
And this is what I said she had a case on.
Yeah, it's clear when you read the judge's ruling what is actually going on.
I too bristle at the obviously lie of "The reason she didn't fix her fence is because the fines for not doing so were too high." as asserted by her lawyers (thus invocation of the bard below).
The judge doesn't specifically say the fines aren't excessive. He says if the fines are excessive, that issue needed to be raised in one of the many code hearings that took place for which she didn't show up to a single one. Whether the fines are excessive or not, this is a pretty standard fare, you don't just get to invent a new case upon appeal without any sort of new evidence and overturn the previous cases.
It would be nice if the lawyers could actually file a proper case instead of a garbage take but garbage in, garbage out. This is how you get ants. Maybe the IJ can pass *another* law in Florida banning excessive fines allowing even for appeal in order for the next Sandy Martinez to wait for a collections agency to repossess her cars before she does anything about it.
He addressed that in the article. Not only was it difficult to attend those code hearings, but there was no point. She wasn't contesting that she had cracks in her driveway or that the storm knocked down her fence.
fines continue to accrue until a city inspector verifies that the violation has been corrected.
That is a really poorly written code. $250/day is egregious to begin with and fines should end the moment it can be demonstrated the violation was corrected. Somebody should run for City Council and fix it.
There is tons of shit my neighbors do with their property that I don't like (starting with building a house right next to me and fucking up my nice private back yard). I don't like it, but I accept that it's their property and there's nothing I can do about it. Same with neighbors who park junk cars in front of their houses or don't mow their lawns (I like those people better than the ones who must have everything just so anyway). Doesn't matter if I don't like it, it's not my business unless it actually damages my property. The option is to move somewhere that meets your aesthetic preferences.
Inconsistent. You say unless it damages my property. Why does your property matter but not property value. Your property is really only about value. So the lady clearly goes out of her way NOT to maintain her property. She saves money. You live next door and your property value drops. That costs you money. She is taking money from you.
You live next door and your property value drops, because she is a WITCH!!! We do snot LIKE witches around these that them thar here parts!!! BeGONE, witches!!! There's snot enough room in this here that them thar town fer the boaf of us!!!
BURN ALL OF THAT THEM THAR WITCHES!!! KAREN IS WITH US!!!!
re: “Your property is really only about value.”
Wow, that is wildly wrong. Your property matters because it’s yours to do with as you will. Speculation about what my choices do to your value are just that – speculation.
Remember that by your logic, I should have a claim on the increase to your property value if I do something that makes the neighborhood nicer. Taking the example further, I've made my house nicer and you merely failed to keep up means that you've taken some of my money from me. Should I get to sue you for that? Or to impose requirements that you continually improve your property regardless of your personal capability or financial situation? That would be stupid. Yet that is precisely what you are demanding here.
This is the great flaw in the Georgist single tax. The value of one's land, even unimproved, depends on the improvements others make nearby.
I have a friend who once told me anyone who says your home is an investment should be ignored.
Your home is a place you live, can make changes to as you want and someday hope to pay off the mortgage so you can retire without having to pay rent when you are old.
Other than that expecting for it to grow in value or price is foolish, like all such thing it depends on having someone who wants to buy it when you want to sell it.
"You live next door and your property value drops. That costs you money. She is taking money from you."
This is an incorrect construction. By using this argument, you are acknowledging that value of a house depends on many things- including things that are beyond the control of a homeowner. If the local factory shuts down, your property value will go down. If a better neighborhood is built 2 miles away, your property value will go down.
And, the flip side to this is that if you expect to hold a 3rd party responsible for negatively impacting your property value, you should be expected to compensate them for positively impacting your property value, right? Should the neighbor demand a payment from you for mowing her yard and installing an aesthetically pleasing fence? Of course that is as absurd as holding her morally accountable if she paints her house a tasteless shade of harvest gold.
There is no real moral imperative. This is all about game theory and contracts. What many of the libertarians are doing here is assuming that in Libertopia, all will be anarchy. That just won't happen.
The risk of negative price value due to external causes is real- and so people typically insure themselves against it. Fire, Earthquake, Hail- these acts of god create real and calculable losses that lend themselves to simple insurance.
And people mitigate the risk of their neighbors fucking up their property values by moving into housing covenants. Typical bitching and moaning about nosey HOAs aside- they are immensely popular. And they are popular precisely because people want to insure against the number one investment in their life being destroyed by an asshole on their block.
The only moral imperative here is to abide by the contracts that you willingly join into. While I have many problems with governments as self-declared, often unaccountable, monopolies of code enforcement, the fact is that this woman bought in this jurisdiction where the code had long been in place. This is not substantially different from a person buying into an HOA and then breaking its rules. She is in the wrong here, even if the government is also in the wrong (perhaps even more in the wrong).
The only moral imperative here is to abide by the contracts that you willingly join into.
We have a thread winner!
No, my property is about my own use and enjoyment of it. It's not an investment vehicle, it's real property that I paid money for so that I can use it as I see fit.
Your property is nothing more than a framework that says what you are allowed to do with a limited resource. For some people that may be investment, or enjoyment, or who-the-fuck-cares. Property rights just give you the right to decide for yourself what you may do with it.
You do not get to use your property without limitation if that purchase included limitations. Full stop, end of discussion. You may WANT property that comes without encumbrance or obligation, but that isn't what you get. You buy land that has easements on it to allow access for maintenance. You buy a house and have to give a 30 day move-out period for the owners. Purchases come with limitations ALL. THE. TIME. And sometimes that prevents your "enjoyment" of the property. It is up to you to decide at purchase time whether or not the contract is worth the limitations.
There is nothing unlibertarian about this. Indeed, libertarian society will not WORK without concepts such as easements and severable rights (mineral rights, water rights, etc).
Which is why people live in hoas, gated neighborhoods and ultimately cities. If you choose to move to a area which has rules you agree to follow them. Would you move to Kansas city and feel you can do what you want or have to follow the existing codes?
But the constitution is itself a set of rules. If you don't want to abide by them, why do you live in the US?
I do want to. Which is why i do abide. If I didn't I would self govern.
Let's kill all the lawyers.
An alternative headline would be, “This Homeowner declined to fix up her eye-sore property for 11 years, and now its going to cost her”
An alternative headline would be, “This Homeowner pissed off the Karens and the GOOD PEOPLE (and their Precious Eyeballs), so NOW, in the Sacred Name of Government Almighty, and ALL that is Good and Right and True, Government Almighty will TAKE HER EVERY LAST FUCKING DIME, and force her to LIKE shit!"
"Aesthetic appeal of a neighborhood" is not a valid social goal. If you don't like looking at her yard, you are entirely able to look the other way. There is no validly libertarian justification for imposing your aesthetic values on anyone else's property.
So yes, this is egregious and unjust.
"There is no validly libertarian justification for imposing your aesthetic values on anyone else’s property."
That is hilariously wrong.
The most libertarian replacement for most government is private entities that mediate disputes between property owners. These exist all over the world. Go to a Co-Op school and you have a bunch of parents banding together to educate kids- and that includes all agreeing to a set of standards of what kids may and may not do. Go to a mall and you see a bunch of tenants willingly agreeing to limit what they can do with their space because they know it is more conducive to business for everyone to follow basic rules. And go to any HOA in the country and you will find people who willingly buy in a governed, planned community because they want to mitigate the risk that some asshole make the place look shitty.
So long as these covenants are voluntary, it is absolutely libertarian for people to "impose aesthetic values" as a condition for purchasing property.
We can argue whether the government is a good way to form these collectives in order to impose those values (I think you and I would both agree that it is not a good way). But that is a different argument than whether a libertarian society would have mechanisms to enforce aesthetic standards. And any libertarian society absolutely would do so, and be justified in doing so.
There is no Consitutional Right to ever growing property values. The Bank who co-owns the property is the only other party that can say anything about the condition the property is in. Mosey neighbors should go fuck themselves or offer to help clean it up.
There is no constitutional right to getting property with no encumbrances on it. Like it or not, most property in this world was owned by someone else before you. And like it or not, when that property is transferred it comes with easements, riders and obligations. If you can find property with zero obligations or encumbrances, good for you. But you are unlikely to find such a thing, and you are not entitled to it either.
Often these obligations were put in place unjustly (as when a nation conquers land). In other cases, those obligations were put in place voluntarily (such as through the Constitution of the United States agreeing on a government that can levy new obligations, or an HOA that is empowered to do the same on a much lesser scale). This woman is in violation of one of those obligations. That is her fault, not the people who created those obligations.
We can argue whether or not THESE specific obligations are justifiable or appropriate, but the notion that ANY obligation is immoral would be unworkable in property law for MANY MANY reasons that would ultimately make mutual cooperation impossible.
Well I was planning to move to Libertopia but with neighbors like you I'm having second thoughts.
A libertopia where parties cannot mutually agree to obligations on their property will be of limited use and will fall apart quite quickly. If you ever have the option to move to a Libertopia, it will be one where people have created small, flexible private entities that serve as vehicles to arbitrate the obligations people voluntarily choose to take on.
I'd far rather have her for a neighbor than you, slaver.
-jcr
"Oh help oh help libertarians! This manager wants me to pay for the food I ordered. I never signed no contract, and now he wants me to pay up! SLAVERS THEY ARE ALL SLAVERS!"
Apples and oranges. The actual comparison would be the restauranteur charging you again after you bought the food, for not putting mustard on that hoagie he sold you like he wanted you to.
And since she didn’t actually buy the house from the government, that’s not even fully grasping the stupidity of these situations.
I get the general point you’re making that even in a libertopia agreements would be made. But they would definitely require contracts to be enforceable.
And even then, no. Fuck that shit. Unless you can show me there’s some more tangible issue effecting her neighbors than she has an ugly fence, Im not going to side with government and the neighborhood snitches and stooges who think they have a right to tell you how to run your own property.
Also, dollars to donuts, if she were as equally lawyered up as the municipality she was at odds with, I bet she could uncover a zillion ways they were gauging everybody and falling short of their own promises. And I’d reckon there’s plenty of legal precedent out there saying there’s a limit on just how steep daily fines are allowed to accrue in private sector transactions.
Full disclosure, I own a house on main street that constantly gets code enforcement stickers on my front door for not mowing my back lawn. I work 6 days a week and I’m tired and don’t give a shit if it bugs you or not. I’ll get to it when I get to it.
You shouldn’t be in my backyard, anyway. And by their own rules the grass should be 10 inches or more before getting cited and I get the yellow stickers well short of that. I hope who ever is calling it in constantly is driven batshit crazy by it. I hope my lawn keeps them awake at night.
So I’m biased, I guess. When it comes to shitty neighbors, I understand being leery of overtly loud and dangerous ones. Going after people because they park somewhere you don’t like on their own property, or their mailbox isn’t regulation height is not something? I would never consider my business.
"I get the general point you’re making that even in a libertopia agreements would be made. "
No that isn't the point I am making. The point I am making is that whenever you engage in commerce, you are agreeing to a large number of obligations. EVEN IN LIBERTOPIA, many of those obligations will not be spelled out in a written contract. Because EVEN IN LIBERTOPIA, people recognize simple shit like, "If you go into a place of business and consume its services, you will have to pay for those services"- even if the owner doesn't say, "Thank you for your order, before I give you the food, please understand that you will be obligated to compensate me for it."
"Unless you can show me there’s some more tangible issue effecting her neighbors than she has an ugly fence, "
This simplistic "Fuck you, how dare people put restrictions on how I use my property" is completely unworkable in a robust libertarian society. EVERY piece of land that is bought and sold in a Libertopia will have encumbrances and obligations on it, and not all of them will be precisely spelled out on the deed. The same framework that allows you to buy mineral rights on property and pursue a new owner for violating those mineral rights would allow a property owner to join a covenant and for them and other property owners to enforce fencing regulations.
This is where libertarians get the reputation for being unrealistic and simplistic. I agree that what happened to this woman is an injustice, but it isn't because she happened to voluntarily buy a house that came with obligations to follow ordinances. This woman violated ordinances, knew she violated them and then failed to make good on her obligations. She is at fault for letting a small obligation turn into a giant one. If you think that is the injustice, then no complex society- libertarian or otherwise- will ever work.
Im not an ancap. Im just not going to side against a property owner in some petty code violation designed to put other home owners at ease about their property value. Not without some more serious charges as to how their disrupting their neighbors lives.
The restaurant scenario still isn’t landing at all. It’s seems a clownishly reductionist comparison that has nothing to do with what’s going on here. It’s something instantly solves itself when the guy doesn’t get the food he didn’t pay for.
Complex societies are also full of people who are pathologically dumb, lazy, or even crazy. And you’re going to have to make some sort of allowance for their existence without railroading them out of their homes because they didn’t comply with hurdles x,y,z in a timely fashion. Obviously details matter and there are limits to that being an excuse. But there’s also limits on hoops people should have to jump through, or it’s not their home.
You’re right that we could use more info in this specific case. But my first instinct sure as shit isn’t going to be to believe or care what the city thinks. Especially when they’re obviously trying to overpower with fines the way they are.
"Im just not going to side against a property owner in some petty code violation designed to put other home owners at ease about their property value."
It isn't about putting other home owners at ease about their property value. It is about living up to the obligations you took on when you made a purchase. And if you decide that some contractual obligations can be freely disregarded merely because you don't like them, then you are being arbitrary. Property rights that are only defended when the encumbrance is something you like, like speech rights that are only defended when its speech you like, are not really rights at all.
"It’s something instantly solves itself when the guy doesn’t get the food he didn’t pay for."
Oh maybe that is your confusion. I guess your restaurant experience is solely of the fast food variety, so it may surprise you to learn that a VAST number of people go to sit-down restaurants where they order food, consume it, and then get a bill for the food.
So...you know...you can't not deliver food that has already been consumed.
The point is that often times through commerce and action we take obligations upon ourselves. When you order food at a restaurant you accept an obligation to pay for that food after it is consumed. And any person purchasing property that is governed (privately or publicly) by ordinance is accepting an obligation to not violate these ordinances.
Calling someone a "slaver" because they expect people to fulfill their voluntarily accepted obligations is not libertarian- it is just Happy Meal libertarianism.
"Complex societies are also full of people who are pathologically dumb, lazy, or even crazy. And you’re going to have to make some sort of allowance for their existence without railroading them out of their homes because they didn’t comply with hurdles x,y,z in a timely fashion."
No. We are not going to treat the population like juveniles. That is how you get the governments you are railing about in the first place- this idea that people can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves.
The vast majority of people in this world are capable of making decisions for themselves. And often that comes with consequences- opportunity cost of choices not taken, or obligations that they take on in return for some other gain. A libertarian understands that personal responsibility means those people being expected to accept those consequences.
She is at fault for letting a small obligation turn into a giant one. If you think that is the injustice, then no complex society- libertarian or otherwise- will ever work.
Fun story: A few years ago, my kids were still walking to a corner to get on the bus. The house on the corner had been given to a son after his mother passed away and, having his own house, was just shy of abandoned. One weekend, about noon, I’m walking by and I see that a raccoon has its head stuck up out of the ridge vent in the roof. I’m unable to tell if it’s still alive from the ground but it sits there long enough for me to pull out my phone and take several pictures of it. I was even able to call the kids and have a teaching moment. When/where I grew up, that raccoon had signed its own death warrant; not only for silhouetting himself like that, but also for showing up mid-day in such a bizarre manner (raccoons are nocturnal and rabies and other diseases frequently upset animals circadian rhythms causing nocturnal animals to come out during the day and act crazy).
But, alas, in this neighborhood, neighbors would frown on, rather than thank or be ambivalent to, you for shooting a rabid raccoon (or opossum or coyote or other vermin) off their property. So I had to find another solution. Sure enough, the next day, the owner pulls up to the curb, parking illegally close to the hydrant instead of in their own driveway. I explain the situation, show him the photos and tell him, that the house is attracting animals, it’s next to the bus stop, it’s aging and depressing property values at the very least, it needs an exterminator… to which he replies that he had a stroke 18 mos. ago and has been recovering (to the point that he can drive up in his Cadillac SUV and walk the property without assistance). I said I understand the difficulty and that’s why I didn’t contact the village or animal control first but he knows now and there’s no reason it should be in the same condition in 3 mos. or even 1 mos. but if there’s still raccoons traipsing about the place I’ve got no choice to call animal control and it’s probably going to escalate from there.
Within a month he’d sold to the bank. 3 mos. later it was rehabbed into a rental property. Still only occupied ~25% of the time, but no raccoons.
And I think this is a good point. I have no problem trying to deal with these things personally. We had a similar house across the street from us, but in our case we couldn't find the owners for years.
But if you read between the lines of this article, it is pretty clear to me that the homeowner isn't some poor besot victim. She is the type of person who doesn't fix up her property, who doesn't answer bills, and who just doesn't proactively (or reactively) live up to her obligations. It is likely that many people asked her to fix things. It is likely that she was given many opportunities to correct the violations and she just didn't do them. I may be wrong, but I doubt that she ever "left a message" with the city.
Now that doesn't mean that the City isn't at least partially in the wrong here. But it DOES mean that this $100k fine is not due to 3 minor code violations. It is due to this woman's inability to manage her life- letting small shit turn into big, big shit despite having many opportunities to stop it.
Ordering food is a contract.
And shocker, buying a house in a specific jurisdiction is also a contract. It often says so on the deed papers, and is spelled out specifically in your title information- this property at 123 main street is within the jurisdiction of Foo County, etc etc.
So now it has come full circle. Go into a restaurant and order food, you are entering a contract to pay. Buy into a neighborhood and you are entering into a contract to keep your property looking nice.
Again, you may not like certain obligations, just as you may not like the corkage fee of a restaurant. But your options are to negotiate or leave. You don't get to continue with your purchase and then scream "Slaver" when it is time for you to pay the piper.
I wuz told We ArE sUpPoSeD to FoLlOw ThE lAwZ!
Anyway, what self-respecting Florida man or woman doesn't have cars parked on the lawn?
South of Tampa? That's just Michigan with all the old people. Never. North of Tampa? Probably. Panhandle? Fuck yeah.
I keep seeing posters from the sixties - - - - - - -
"You can't fight city hall"
"But you can burn it down"
Home equity loan? Sell and lease back?
I used to live in Jacksonville Beach when I was in the Navy. I was changing the oil in my car one day when I feel something tap my foot. I came out from under the car and a cop handed me a $250 citation for doing vehicle maintaince. I took the citation to Base Legal and a Lieutenant took it. He called me about an hour later and told me to forget about it. One of the City Councilmen owned three oil change shops in the area. There was never a law passed about doing vehicle mainaince. He just told the Police to start enforcing it.
Pre crime requires enforcement.
Fuck the slaver who owned the oil change shops, and fuck the cop who obeyed him.
I keep saying, we'd only have to tar and feather a handful of these assholes every other year or so to make most of them clean up their act...
-jcr
According to ZipRecruiter, judges average $69K in Florida. That’s can’t be right. Can it?
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Court-Judge-Salary–in-Florida#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Court,%2Fweek%20or%20%245%2C761%2Fmonth.
Do they work part time or something? Is it a hobby?
It’s a shit ton more than you make.
She causes the opposite of gentrification.
I'd hate to have her as a neighbor.
The fines are excessive.
Not sure on this.
I'd go next door and ask if she needed help. Offer labor if she buys supplies. Odds are she isn't well enough off to afford a lot of repairs. In the last 30 years we've made a a lot of house poor people who can pay the mortgage but find upkeep difficult. Hell, many of them are a couple of paychecks away from losing the house.
In "Libertopia" you can be an asshole and ignore the plight of others. But you get along with neighbors better if you're a helpful person.
The stupid part was her mom and sister stay there, but she only makes $25k a year and has to be home for childcare. Sounds like all of my tenants, there’s four incomes in the house, plus all sorts of government income for the kids, everyone can afford a car, but nothing for opening the mail or paying bills.
^This
Reason: Four people in three houses and nobody can show up to a hearing or mend a fence until they get slapped with massive fines and a national poor-people law firm and the media get involved…
Also Reason: OMG! Can you believe poor people are squatting in homes in NYC!
The judge has a strong precedent in Engoron's decision in NY State v. Trump. Expect to see more of these kind of decisions.
Hey, if a presidential candidate can be hit with a half-billion dollar fine (yes, later reduced), us peasants can certainly expect to pay six figure penalties.
Since her insurance company didn't cough up the funds to repair the fence quickly enough to avoid the code enforcement folks having issue, should they not be on the hook for those fines?
You would receive the citation and show the City that you are working on it with the insurance company
I want to see the receipts here. I could be wrong, but this homeowner has an awful lot of convenient excuses for not doing shit to improve her situation. She couldn't afford to fix a driveway in 10 years of earning. She totes left a message with the city and they never called her back (and she never followed up). She really didn't get her funds quick enough.
Since this article is basically a press release from her attorney, we have no counter-story and they have felt no need to actually prove that this well intentioned homeowner was a victim of other people's neglect (rather than a lazy neglectful person whose neglect of her house is just one example of a life spent chronically dropping balls and deferring the right thing).
So, let me get this straight Jake.
She knew she was in violation.
She knew she was incurring daily fines.
She was given an option by the City, which she ignored.
She knew there were hearings, and she chose not to go to them.
She knew she could appeal in circuit court, but chose not to.
She could have made claims for hardship and disproportionality, but didn't.
She persisted in all this for over a decade.
And somehow she's the victim here.
Seriously. Put it on Jake. Put it on right now.
https://c.tenor.com/T3x7tyBXKVMAAAAd/clown-nose.gif
Who is the victim?
Society. A society that comes together, votes themselves representation, establishes Rule of Law, allows for changes and revisions or even outright repeal to said law at any time by means of democratic process, provides for enforcement of said Law, and offers an impartial system of justice that presumes innocence and protects due process at every step of the way.
This woman spat in the face of all of it. This woman has claimed in her complaint, effectively, that because she is needy that the Law should not apply to her. She can't afford the fines, therefore she should be allowed to continue the offending activity - while anyone else would be expected to pay them.
That's as Marxist an argument as it gets.
Now, if your argument is that the laws themselves are bad - then you've certainly got a valid one. There are plenty of laws I don't like on the books as well. BUT, if you are equating the argument that "the law is a poor one" with the argument that "someone knowingly, purposefully, continuously flouting it should be excused from doing so" then you have no valid argument. And if you assert the latter on some kind of ridiculous need-basis (like Jake here has), then not only do you have no valid argument, you have a genuinely bad and wrong one at that.
You MIGHT have an argument if the woman had been engaged in a decades-long act of civil disobedience against poor City Ordinances. But that's not what her complaint said. Her complaint outed her as a contemptuous scofflaw, nothing more. And asserted the Marxist claim that because she couldn't fix the problems or pay the fines, she was therefore justified in ignoring not just both outright, but ignoring all opportunities to mitigate/mediate them. And now she seeks to avoid accountability completely.
When society figures out that people can get away with ignoring the little laws (like BLM, border jumpers, and LGBT have), that's when they start thinking they can get away with ignoring progressively (ha, pun) bigger ones. Broken windows.
The book should be thrown at this woman. Seize her assets, garnish her wages and tax returns - heck, if it were still legal, I'd say throw her in debtor's prison. This particular instance would be a genuinely justified use of it.
Well, I hope you’re always ready willing and able to comply with the rules and laws “society” makes for you.
Delgado is a cunt who never should have passed the character and fitness review for a law license, let alone be allowed on the bench.
-jcr
I would like to see an investigation into Judge Luis Delgado getting kickbacks from all these fines.
Be good friends with your neighbors.
This isn't some pushy HOA, and this isn't the City patrolling a neighborhood for violations - Cities rarely do that. Martinez pissed-off her neighbor(s), who then reported her for violations. That said, $165,000 seems pretty, pretty, pretty, excessive to me...
The judge needs to look up the word, "excessive" in the dictionary since he obviously doesn't know what it means.
The fact that a judge doesn't consider $165K to be a lot of money tells me all I need to know about government officials. "A billion here ... a billion there ... pretty soon you're talking about real money!"
The judges are out of control Time to reform the system. This judge should be removed from office
Well, I hope you’re always ready willing and able to comply with the rules and laws “society” makes for you.
Of course I'm not. Do you have any idea how many stop signs I run when there's clearly no point in stopping for them? I'm also a serial carpool lane abuser, so long as I don't see the fuzz anywhere around.
Difference between me and this chick (and you, apparently) is: if I ever get caught, I'm not going to file a lawsuit pretending like I've been somehow unjustly treated. I knew I was scoffing at the law when I ignored it, and I know that breaking that law - stupid and pointless as I think it is much of the time - is a crime with consequences. I also know that if I ignore the fine or the court hearing that a bench warrant will be issued, and that if I choose to allow that to happen, then I will deserve to be arrested and faced increased penalties for ignoring the Rule of Law.
This woman, and apparently you, seem to think that shouldn't be the case. Which is... well, stupid.
I'm not saying that being a scofflaw is necessarily wrong. I'm saying that if you're going to run the risks of scoffing at them, don't cry foul when the consequences for it get very real. And certainly don't wail like some helpless beggar that the consequences aren't fair simply because "you can't afford them."
Well said. This is the problem with too much libertarian thinking. They think that just because the government is involved, it must be poisoned fruit. But often the government is a bad solution to real obligations that people must undertake.
This woman had these obligations and failed to uphold them. That is wrong whether the obligations were to the government or to a private covenant. And people who think such obligations in and of themselves are unjust are actually subverting property rights all together. If I cannot exercise my property to obligate me in some way, then I have no property rights at all.
If you were fined $165,000 for your stop sign violations you would cry foul and try to appeal the amount. You know it and I know it. Don't even try and pretend otherwise.
Another difference between you and this chick is that running a stop sign can cause injuries. Having cracks in your driveway can't.
No, actually – I wouldn’t. If I incurred $165,000 for stop sign violations, it would likely be for the same reason this woman did. Because I constantly, intentionally, and willfully ignored it FOR OVER A DECADE, letting those fines rack up and compound, all the while making ZERO effort to stop running stop signs and incurring new fines and ignoring any opportunity to take up their legitimacy with one of several available governing bodies on the subject.
So, no – don’t pretend that she’s been hit for six figures because of a driveway crack. She’s been hit for six figures for decades of contempt for Rule of Law which she could have immediately corrected over a ten years ago.
Another difference between you and this chick is that running a stop sign can cause injuries. Having cracks in your driveway can’t.
Well, it's the law either way. Like I said earlier: if you are equating the argument that “the law is a poor one” with the argument that “someone knowingly, purposefully, continuously flouting it should be excused from doing so” then you have no valid argument.