Harvard Global Cooling Geoengineering Experiment Halted
Activists oppose research on how to safely deploy an emergency cooling system for the planet.

Last year was the hottest year in the global instrumental temperature record. Since 1960, the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has risen from 315 to 425 parts per million, largely as a result of emissions from burning fossil fuels. Some researchers argue that the pace of global warming is increasing.
Given these trends, it would be a good idea to do some research on an emergency backup cooling system for the planet. Unfortunately, activists have pulled the plug on a preliminary solar radiation management (SRM) experiment. The aim of SRM is to lower average global temperatures by injecting tiny particles high in the stratosphere, where they would reflect a small percentage of sunlight. This would mimic the effect of Mount Pinatubo's 1991 volcanic injection of 17 million tons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, which cooled the planet by about 1 degree Fahrenheit for a year.
In 2021, Harvard's stratospheric controlled perturbation experiment (SCoPEx) planned to test launch a high altitude balloon equipped with propellers and various sensors at a Swedish Space Corporation facility near the arctic town of Kiruna. If all went well, the researchers would later initiate an experiment in which they would release a couple of pounds of harmless chalk particles and then fly back through the cloud to measure their dispersal and reflectivity. The goal was to get some information that would help guide the safe and effective deployment of stratospheric sunscreen in the event that global temperature increase accelerates. But the Swedish government has now caved to pressure and cancelled the experiment, and the Harvard team has now closed down ScoPEx.
If the Swedish government won't let researchers launch, there are 91 weather balloon stations in the U.S. that release radiosondes into the stratosphere twice daily. Some of them are remote enough that the ScoPEx balloon would pose little hazard to people or property.
Many envionmental activists oppose SRM research because they fear it will in fact be cheap and work well. Industrialists, policymakers, and the public would be tempted, in their view, to use its deployment as an excuse to slow down the race to replace fossil fuels with low-carbon energy technologies. But if the world does start heating up rapidly later in this century, the public and policy makers would very likely turn to SRM as an emergency cooling system for the planet.
In my 2022 article "The Unscientific Panic Over Solar Geoengineering," I argued:
We are bequeathing to our descendants a world in which the climate is changing in what may be very deleterious ways. "In this context," Yale geoengineering lecturer Wake Smith and White House energy expert Claire Henly ask, "is it justified for us to deprive future generations of tools that may lessen the pain we have inflicted? They may or may not use these tools, but surely those decisions are theirs to make."
Activist-enforced scientific ignorance of SRM is not the right answer.
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Harvard
Oof.
Is where Roger Revelle was when he put geoengineering on the climate policy map with his 1965 White House report on what to do about CO2.
Unfortunately he did not make that report part of the curriculum of the environmental science course he taught and Al Gore took a few years later :
https://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/2019/04/and-godfather-of-solar-radiation.html
Oh, good, still posting shady links to websites nobody is stupid enough to click on.
Stuff your fake website up your ass, scumbag.
Given these trends, it would be a good idea to do some research on an emergency backup cooling system for the planet.
Sounds like a great idea! With the best of intentions! What could possibly go wrong?
Didn’t they ever hear about air conditioners? That would cool things down.
"Since 1960, the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has risen from 315 to 425 parts per million, largely as a result of emissions from burning fossil fuels." Bailey, repeating a lie does not make it into a truth. Neither you nor anyone else now alive knows whether CO2 levels are rising because of global warming or causing global warming, or a chaotic combination of both. I know, I know ... fossil fuel burning by the mastodons caused the last four ice ages and the interglacial global warming events over 500,000 years ago ...
From what scientists have been able to tell, global temperature changes of the past were measured in thousands of years, while current changes are measured in hundreds. That suggests that what’s happening now is more than just another natural change, and it correlates with the use of fossil fuels. Correlation is not causation, I know. But when I think about winters of my youth, there wasn’t more snow just because I was shorter.
From what scientists have been able to tell, global temperature changes of the past were measured in thousands of years, while current changes are measured in hundreds
Which may or may not be an artifact of the granularity of the data we have for the last 40 years (constant global temperature monitoring), vs the previous 100 (thermometers here and there around the world), vs. the previous 800,000 (subjective interpretation of various randomly distributed "proxies"), vs. the previous 3.5 billion (wild-assed guesses).
When I talk to old people about winters when they were whippersnappers, they talk about drifts blocking roads. When I was a kid there was always snow on Thanksgiving. Last few years we haven't gotten snow until Christmas. Anecdotal I know.
There's no question winters have been warmer in recent decades, and this has been more pronounced the farther north you go. I suspect this is why people in Sweden are particularly exercised by this and people in the tropics don't even notice it.
What we don't know and aren't any ways near knowing is whether this warming is part of a "normal" cycle of fluctuation or part of a consistent and unusual (and anthropogenic) warming trend that will continue indefinitely.
Worthy of further study? Yes. Worth spraying chalk into the upper atmosphere in a fit of panic? No.
Worthy of further study? Yes. Worth spraying chalk into the upper atmosphere in a fit of panic? No.
aye
"What we don’t know and aren’t any ways near knowing is whether this warming is part of a “normal” cycle of fluctuation or part of a consistent and unusual (and anthropogenic) warming trend that will continue indefinitely. "
we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend. the original calculation for how much CO2 would increase the global temperature was done in the early 1960's. (they knew for a few hundred years CO2 would increase temps, but 1960's is when someone calculated the cumulative effects it would have on increased water vapor that comes from the increase caused by the CO2.) since that time, the CO2 has increased, and if you plug that amount of increase into that calculation done in the 1960's it perfectly matches the amount of increase we have seen.
where the scientist doing the models have come up short has been in things like not knowing how much CO2 the oceans would absorb, or how to factor short term trends like el ninio. but this relationship between CO2 goes up by X, temps go up by Y has remained perfectly correlated. we know where the extra CO2 came from, and we know the temperature has gone up by the predicted amount based on that increase. you can argue there are other factors not being accounted for, more fine tuning of our understanding, better understanding of the implications........ but to pretend this is not the primary driver of what we are seeing is disingenuous, at best..... and deliberately dishonest at worst.
I think that some of the "denial" of AGW comes from disagreement with the policies. But instead of separating the policies from what the policies are for, the two are linked. So opposition to the policy means that AGW can't be true. I also think it's possible to separate the two, and agree that AGW is real while opposing stupid government ideas to "fix" it.
So, you’re just going to whistle right past the part where in the 1960’s and 1970’s it was commonly believed by the scientific community that the risk was Earth freezing into an iceball, huh?
It is rather amusing though that CO2 PPM are much closer to an extinction level event via not enough CO2 than too much, given that most plants (you know, the source of most oxygen on earth) begin a mass extinction at around ~170 PPM.
Also, just for fun, it’s notable that even among climate scientists it’s widely recognized that global PPM of CO2 have been easily at or around ~4000 PPM in the recent geological period, amusingly even during a full bore ice age.
Climatology has no answer to that whatsoever.
A quick google got me icecores.org which says that over the last 400,000 years CO2 levels have ranged from 180 – 280 ppm.
Where did you get your information?
Were you curious as to why they limit the timescale?
https://today.tamu.edu/2021/06/14/ancient-deepsea-shells-reveal-66-million-years-of-carbon-dioxide-levels/
"So, you’re just going to whistle right past the part where in the 1960’s and 1970’s it was commonly believed by the scientific community that the risk was Earth freezing into an iceball, huh?"
not breezing past anything.... it is well established that this is a lie. they found a handful of scientists that thought this to sell a magazine. the headline worked like clickbait does today BECAUSE most of the scientists didn't think this...... it sold magazines BECAUSE it was opposite of the common belief. about the same percentage of them though we were heading for an ice age back then as they do today. (almost none.)
"It is rather amusing though that CO2 PPM are much closer to an extinction level event via not enough CO2 than too much, given that most plants (you know, the source of most oxygen on earth) begin a mass extinction at around ~170 PPM."
what's amusing is the absolute BS that comes out of you guys. you can't argue with the facts that CO2 is warming the planet and we are the source of that CO2, so you instead throw out some meaningless BS about if the CO2 had magically been cut in half instead of increasing, contrary to every fact available. this is probably the most irrelevant argument i have ever seen.
"Also, just for fun, it’s notable that even among climate scientists it’s widely recognized that global PPM of CO2 have been easily at or around ~4000 PPM in the recent geological period, amusingly even during a full bore ice age."
what is notable is just how completely devoid of any knowledge your arguments are. your "recent" geological period is about 500 fucking million years ago...... when the sun was dimmer.... that's how far off the rails you have to go to make an argument.... you have to point to something 500 million years ago, and deliberately ignore every other factor from that time period. CO2 levels being higher 500 million years ago is how life was able to survive and evolve. without the warming influence of CO2, the earth would have been an iceball, because the solar output was significantly lower. the data point you are trying to use as the basis for your argument is proof that CO2 works the way you are trying to claim it does not.
https://environmental-geology-dev.pressbooks.tru.ca/chapter/changes-in-solar-output-and-in-the-earths-atmosphere/
CO2 levels being higher 500 million years ago is how life was able to survive and evolve. without the warming influence of CO2, the earth would have been an iceball
I want you to keep reading that sentence, over and over, until you come to an important realization re: temperature and life.
Also understand that the correlation between CO2 concentrations over geologic timescales and global temperatures is decidedly non-linear.
I wonder whether you would be willing to entertain the suggestion that CO2 may be one of many imperfectly understood factors in climate, rather than the single, all-encompassing "primary driver."
"I want you to keep reading that sentence, over and over, until you come to an important realization re: temperature and life."
i want you to reread that over and over until you come to an important realization....... you are not actually saying a goddamn thing. the sun was 5-10% dimmer and we needed more CO2 in the atmosphere to keep water in liquid form...... what point do you think you were making here?
"I wonder whether you would be willing to entertain the suggestion that CO2 may be one of many imperfectly understood factors in climate, rather than the single, all-encompassing “primary driver.”"
i see you trying to reach for an oversimplification. i never said there were not other factors.... in fact, i started out here pointing out that the key to getting a good model was when they figured out how to factor in the positive feedback element of water vapor in the 1960's. i also stated that one mistake the modelers made was underestimating how much CO2 the oceans would absorb. (good for the temperatures, not so much for the coral.) but none of that erases the fact that the primary driver for what we have seen over the last century is excess CO2 that was previously sequestered in fossil fuels. anyone who has made any honest attempt to understand all the other factors would not be ignorant of that reality or try to craft some BS "imperfectly understood so we should ignore everything we do know" argument.
what point do you think you were making here?
That iceball doesn't help us, and the planet has never been so warm that life hasn't thrived, especially back when it was way warmer than it is now. It will not be possible for us to put enough CO2 into the atmosphere to either make the planet too warm for life or to make the atmosphere too CO2-rich for animal life.
We might have other problems going on however, and the obsession with CO2 may well be a distraction.
Should we try to limit how much CO2 we're putting out? There's no harm in it, but it needs to be a voluntary and individual responsibility - this isn't for your social "We," and governments have never done anything but make CO2 emissions worse.
Should we be actively trying to cool the planet? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Iceblock Earth is a world of death and nothingness and we know this.
i see you trying to reach for an oversimplification.
lol the guy saying "hey guys, it's all CO2 - WE know it" responds to those saying "hey, maybe the climate isn't as simple and linear a system as you're claiming" says his critics are reaching for an oversimplification.
Where exactly do you think all that carbon that's locked up in fossil fuels came from? Honest question, since you seem like one of those people who lose sight of the obvious.
I'll give you a hint: it's right in the name itself.
"It will not be possible for us to put enough CO2 into the atmosphere to either make the planet too warm for life or to make the atmosphere too CO2-rich for animal life."
oh, the "it's actually a good thing" argument. i should not be surprised by another bit of oversimplified nonsense. too bad it is based on nothing but wishful thinking. there have been times in earths past when there were rapid changes in CO2, and it did kill a whole lot of the life that was here. life in some form can probably survive anything we do to the planet, but that does not mean we, specifically, can.
the other big problem with this argument is that it fundamentally admits that every other argument you have attempted is garbage and you know it. you don't try to play the "but can we really make it that bad" game unless you know the warming is real and we are causing it.
"There’s no harm in it, but it needs to be a voluntary and individual responsibility – this isn’t for your social “We,” and governments have never done anything but make CO2 emissions worse."
hahahaha... i see you didn't get that i answered your "we" question just to prove you were playing stupid games. i have not advocated for any government action..... or any specific action at all, for that matter. the only thing i have advocated for is acknowledging reality, and not spitting out a bunch of BS that a lot of you "skeptics" know is BS.
i also think action should be voluntary...... the key to people taking voluntary action is not a bunch of deliberately deceptive assholes trying to tell them there is no reason to. i have said for a long time that the way to fight those using climate as an excuse to expand government was to offer more free market options..... argue against the policies, not reality. the longer you guys play this stupid game of arguing with the facts instead of the response to them, the longer those people keep winning and our freedoms are eroded. you guys are fighting the wrong fight.
" Iceblock Earth is a world of death and nothingness and we know this."
i don't recall ever seeing anyone say we should cool the earth until it freezes.... what they want to test is slight cooling that will only last a year or two at a time. so, your argument here is more than a little exaggerated.
"lol the guy saying “hey guys, it’s all CO2 – WE know it” responds to those saying “hey, maybe the climate isn’t as simple and linear a system as you’re claiming” says his critics are reaching for an oversimplification."
and, back to the stupid fucking game where you ignore what i actually wrote and pretend i said something different. i know the stupid fucking game you were playing here, just like i knew the stupid fucking game you were playing with your "we" question. you have zero interest in an honest discussion, and i have zero interest in your stupid games.
"Where exactly do you think all that carbon that’s locked up in fossil fuels came from? "
you really are a dumb cunt. as was explained.... to you specifically... on this very thread.... it came from that time period 500million years ago when the excess CO2 was a good thing because the sun was cooler....
your attempt at a point here is that a thick blanket is a good idea when it is 100 degrees out because we once used it in the winter.
oh, the “it’s actually a good thing” argument
Not at all what I said. Read again, more slowly, and then rebut if you have something to rebut with.
there have been times in earths past when there were rapid changes in CO2, and it did kill a whole lot of the life that was here
* citation needed (again)
you don’t try to play the “but can we really make it that bad” game unless you know the warming is real and we are causing it
No, it actually called a "hypothetical." Maybe they'll cover that next semester.
Interestingly, if you go through what I've said, at no point have I denied warming (in fact this very subthread started with me noting the warming), and at no point have I denied that anthropogenic CO2 probably plays some role.
It gets frustrating when the usual tribal attacks fall flat, doesn't it? You should probably call me names some more.
i also think action should be voluntary
Great! So we agree that large scale atmospheric chalk-spraying without the consent of everyone on the planet is a bad idea. Glad we could finally come to a meeting of the minds on that.
"Not at all what I said. Read again, more slowly, and then rebut if you have something to rebut with."
sorry if you are too stupid to understand the implications of the stance you have chosen to take.
"* citation needed (again)"
as evidence..... immediately after claiming you were not taking that stance, you demand proof it is wrong....... google "the great dying." it is a pretty well known event in earths history, and the kind of thing a person claiming to have any clue about this stuff would be aware of without having to be spoon fed it.
"Interestingly, if you go through what I’ve said, at no point have I denied warming"
hmm, lets see.......
"What we don’t know and aren’t any ways near knowing is whether this warming is part of a “normal” cycle of fluctuation or part of a consistent and unusual (and anthropogenic) warming trend that will continue indefinitely. "
"We might have other problems going on however, and the obsession with CO2 may well be a distraction."
"In understand that “some people” have unreasonable amounts of skepticism, but there’s real cause for skepticism that CO2 is the “primary driver”....."
when telling a bold faced lie like this, you should not leave so much evidence on the same page. much of what you have said has been with the clear intention of throwing doubt not just on the warming, but that the CO2 we have put in the air is a major factor.
"It gets frustrating when the usual tribal attacks fall flat, doesn’t it?"
sounds like projection to me.
"Great! So we agree that large scale atmospheric chalk-spraying without the consent of everyone on the planet is a bad idea."
whole lot of assumptions not in evidence, there...... first, the article was about a test, not anything large scale. (you know.... get some data to better understand if it COULD be a geed idea.) second, you are assuming that no country would put the process to a vote first after we have that data in hand. third, because of idiots who want to block the tests, we really can't say if it is a bad idea or not. we have enough naturally occurring data to suggest it might be a decent band-aid, but what you advocate is refusing to do enough testing to be sure.
sorry if you are too stupid to understand the implications of the stance you have chosen to take.
Wow. You are one pissy little man. I am actually trying to have a civilized discussion with you, but I’m finding you to be strikingly small-minded and hateful.
immediately after claiming you were not taking that stance, you demand proof it is wrong
Here you go slinging pronouns around again without any care regarding their referents. You take my agreement that there is warming and that anthropogenic CO2 may be a factor as agreement that we face imminent disaster and CO2 is the one and only factor (in fairness, you’ve downgraded now to “a major factor,” more evidence that your bluster is masking a lack of real grounding), which is misconstruing what I’m saying to a degree that at this point seems intentional.
much of what you have said has been with the clear intention of throwing doubt not just on the warming, but that the CO2 we have put in the air is a major factor
Note how in your string of “gothca” quotes that not once do I take the position you accuse me of taking. What words can I use to acknowledge the warming trend that will work to convince you that I acknowledge the warming trend?
"The precise causes of the Great Dying remain unknown.”
Oops.
we have enough naturally occurring data to suggest it might be a decent band-aid
A band-aid for what? The ICCP agrees that there is no likely catastrophe coming from warming, as do most major climate scientists. You still haven’t actually said why it is the rest of us are so incredibly stupid for not seeing the catastrophe that isn’t happening.
"Here you go slinging pronouns around again without any care regarding their referents. "
here we go with more of your troll games of talking about pronouns instead of the obvious meaning that you clearly understand.
"Note how in your string of “gothca” quotes that not once do I take the position you accuse me of taking."
are you telling me you are too stupid to understand what it is you are saying? because that actually seems plausible.
"What words can I use to acknowledge the warming trend that will work to convince you that I acknowledge the warming trend?"
oh, no..... i see...... it's back to the stupid game where you pretend i said something other than what i said.... you even quoted it, but can's seem to register the part you have explicitly denied in those quotes. typical troll BS to not read the entire sentence.
"The ICCP agrees that there is no likely catastrophe coming from warming, as do most major climate scientists. "
and, where, exactly, have i used the word "catastrophe?" (other than following the logical conclusion of your analogy where it sounds like you want to euthanize the planet.) i don't really care what nugget you are trying to twist to make this argument, because it is a straw man to begin with.
here we go with more of your troll games of talking about pronouns instead of the obvious meaning that you clearly understand
No. I'm saying what you said literally made no sense, and using some actual nouns would have helped a lot
are you telling me you are too stupid to understand what it is you are saying?
Well, one of us is, anyway.
it’s back to the stupid game where you pretend i said something other than what i said
Did you miss that you were saying this in response to me saying that you're mischaracterizing what I said? What in heavens did you think you were responding to?
you even quoted it, but can’s seem to register the part you have explicitly denied in those quotes
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Developing the ability to be specific about what you're saying will take you a long way toward being able to communicate with people.
where, exactly, have i used the word “catastrophe?”
If only there were an Olympic medal for lacking self-awareness.
If you don't think there's an impending catastrophe, then what the serious fuck are you all up in my face for?
"If you don’t think there’s an impending catastrophe, then what the serious fuck are you all up in my face for?"
so you admit that i never said that...... you admit that you are a liar...... you admit that you are more interested in arguing with what you imagine than what has actually been said.
you can fuck off now.
so you admit that i never said that
Um . . . no.
What I'm rather strongly implying is that if you're not concerned about an impending catastrophe, then you have no point here. Like literally none. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing and not actually disagreeing with the substance of anything anyone is saying.
If you are concerned about an impending catastrophe, then the things you're saying, while unsupported, are not as idiotic, but you're still not actually making the case that the impending warming . . . whatever you want it to call it - doom? harm? unpleasantness? . . . is manifestly worse than literally any amount of cooling would be.
The only thing I asserted that sent you into this sputtering frenzy is that we don't know for certain that we're in a catastrophic anthropogenic warming cycle.
Take a deep breath, step back, and think about whether your responses are either proportionate or reasonable.
fuck right on off
fuck right on off
I think what you meant to say was "sorry for being such a jerk - I'll do better in the future."
I'll ask you one simple question.
What is the heat absorption from a doubling of C02 assuming perfect gas laws (won't even use logarithmic assumptions). Now why do the models assume almost 4x this assumed absorption?
if you would bother to actually read what i wrote, you would not need to ask your question.....
".....1960’s is when someone calculated the cumulative effects it would have on increased water vapor that comes from the increase caused by the CO2."
it is because they understood something too complicated for your simple mind to understand. the CO2 is just one part of the equation. there is a positive feedback due to the fact that relative humidity stays the same.
"CO2 is just one part of the equation"
And, just as apparently, they understood something that "just ain't so." CO2 in climate science is not part of ANY equation. An example of an equation would be "CO2 conc = O2 + Carbon" and a linear model equation would be "CO2 conc = 0.1 X Factor 1 + 0.01 X Factor 2 + 2 X Factor 3 + .... x X Factor Z." Instead the actual CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is dozens of interlocking cyclic factors that are not only impacted by dozens of inputs but, in turn, input into dozens of other factors. This makes the Climate, including CO2 levels, a CHAOTIC system analyzed only by chaos theory tools in their infancy currently, and not subject to linear modeling of the type you ignorantly wave around here like it's some kind of brilliant knowledge only you and the scientists can wield.
so.... what you are basically saying is that you think the whole thing is just way to complicated to understand so we should all ignore anything you say because you have no fucking clue one way or the other........
got it.
"so…. what you are basically saying is that you think the whole thing is just way to complicated to understand so we should all ignore anything you say because you have no fucking clue one way or the other……..
got it."
No, we're saying you're full of shit.
"No, we’re saying you’re full of shit."
funny that it keeps coming out "it is soooo complicated..... you can't possibly understand it because we don't."
we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend.
Who is "we" and who is "some people?"
the original calculation for how much CO2 would increase the global temperature was done in the early 1960’s
By whom?
they knew for a few hundred years CO2 would increase temps
Who is "they?"
if you plug that amount of increase into that calculation done in the 1960’s it perfectly matches the amount of increase we have seen
If you plug what amount of what into what it perfectly matches what that "we have seen"?
How is GMT defined, how do we determine what it is, how do we determine what it was, how do we determine how much it has increased and how do we go about correlating that to the amount of "extra" CO2?
In understand that "some people" have unreasonable amounts of skepticism, but there's real cause for skepticism that CO2 is the "primary driver" of whatever may or may not be happening as well that shouldn't be so casually hand-waived away.
Real science is about asking hard questions, not resisting them.
"Who is “we” and who is “some people?”"
we is society. some people is those who don't want to accept the reality.
"If you plug what amount of what into what it perfectly matches what that “we have seen”?"
well, this is a stupid game....... just ignore most of what i wrote, pretend you have no idea what we are talking about and ask an asinine amount of stupid questions.
"In understand that “some people” have unreasonable amounts of skepticism, but there’s real cause for skepticism that CO2 is the “primary driver” of whatever may or may not be happening as well that shouldn’t be so casually hand-waived away."
only if you deliberately ignore most of what is available the way you just deliberately ignored most of what i wrote..... like pretending you didn't know CO2 was the what and temperature increase was the what we have seen right before trying to make this lame ass argument where you admit you knew CO2 was the what and the temp increase was what we have seen. your skepticism requires effort to ignore the facts.
we is society
Incorrect. "Society" doesn't know things, and you don't get to define people who agree with you as "Society" and people who don't agree with you as "not-Society."
just ignore most of what i wrote, pretend you have no idea what we are talking about and ask an asinine amount of stupid questions
Incorrect. I'm pointing out that your assertions of absolute scientific certainty are plagued by vagueness and tribalistic "us vs. them" thinking - i.e. your "We in Society Who Know" vs. "Those Others Who Don't Know What We in Society Know."
your skepticism requires effort to ignore the facts
You haven't provided any facts, only insults directed at people who ask questions regarding your Absolute Truths known by your "We."
That was the point of my reply.
"Incorrect. “Society” doesn’t know things....."
see.... i said you were playing a stupid fucking game.
"You haven’t provided any facts, only insults directed at people who ask questions regarding your Absolute Truths known by your “We.”"
i presented plenty of facts. facts you pretended i never stated so you could play your stupid little game. the insults came when it was clear you were playing a stupid fucking game, because i don't go out of my way to be nice to people who are being assholes. i started perfectly nice until you pulled your BS.
see…. i said you were playing a stupid fucking game
Where is "society's" brain such that it "knows" things? What does that even mean, other than that people other than you know things and you're repeating what they've said without actually understanding it?
i presented plenty of facts
No. You have declared many things facts, and when asked to present receipts, you sputter insults, like you just now did.
The sad thing here is that Square = Circle is actually using reason and logic here, and yet gets called names for their honest effort.
Deduction tells me they don't 'know' any of these things, but rather read them somewhere and understood very little of what they actually read.
Masters student, or Ph.D in an unrelated field one wonders...I'd guess masters student just because they are obviously not a very mature individual nor can they easily cite any of the specifics of what they 'know' to be true.
"Where is “society’s” brain such......"
i have called this stupid game out so many times, why are you still trying to play it? fuck off with this weak ass "what is the meaning of we" BS. if you can't make an actual argument, then just STFU.
"No. You have declared many things facts, and when asked to present receipts, you sputter insults, like you just now did."
yeah.... you didn't ask for any "receipts," you just ignored the facts i presented and started babbling about the meaning of the word "we." (a kind of played out troll move that you continue to let me point out.)
fuck off with this weak ass “what is the meaning of we” BS.
You seem to the one having trouble with the meaning of "we." At this point I can only assume that it refers to you and the gnome in your pocket.
What was the point of your "we" other than to claim membership in a group of "people who know" that excludes all of the rest of us without you having to actually know or understand anything yourself?
I can only assume the word salad of your last paragraph is an attempt to salvage your word salad from before, but it isn't working.
Careful thinking requires careful definition. Shrieks of "sOmEbOdY sOmEwHeRe AgReEs WiTh ME!!1! hTat's SCIENCE YOU FuCkiNG Un!beliEvr!" isn't all that persuasive, actually.
I’d guess masters student just because they are obviously not a very mature individual nor can they easily cite any of the specifics of what they ‘know’ to be true.
I agree. There’s that specific combination of not-quite-understanding with assuming intellectual superiority over everyone else.
Oh yeah, and -
you didn’t ask for any “receipts,”
Remember when I asked you all those questions a few posts back and you lost your mind on me?
That was me asking you for receipts.
"You seem to the one having trouble with the meaning of “we.” At this point I can only assume that it refers to you and the gnome in your pocket."
and you are STILL obsessed with the word "we." claiming I'm having a problem while imagining gnomes.... the fact is that it is completely irrelevant, and this is just a lame troll tactic of diverting the conversation away from anything that has any relevance to the topic at hand.
"Remember when I asked you all those questions a few posts back and you lost your mind on me?"
you mean the questions that had absolutely nothing to do with the facts presented, and were just an attempt to open the door for your "we" BS?
and you are STILL obsessed with the word “we.” claiming I’m having a problem while imagining gnomes
No. I'm pointing out that your use of "we" is a dishonest appeal to authority. I didn't think I needed to spell it out so explicitly, but apparently I do.
you mean the questions that had absolutely nothing to do with the facts presented
And this here is what we call a "circular argument." I was questioning the factuality of what you were presenting as facts and trying to prompt you into some thinking regarding the Scientific Method and the general processes by which we generally try to separate tentative facts from the sorts of unsupported declarative statements you've been relying on.
I wonder whether you are able to address any of the questions I've asked, or if all you have is deflection and insults.
"No. I’m pointing out that your use of “we” is a dishonest appeal to authority."
which is not even remotely what i have said at any point.
"I was questioning the factuality of what you were presenting........"
no.... as you just demonstrated, you were trying to pretend i was saying something other than what i really said. you knew exactly what the fuck i meant, but wanted to play some stupid word games to twist and pretend i was saying something else...... as if "we," "us," "you and me," "any arbitrary grouping of people" is a fucking appeal to authority.... i don't think you understand that term.
"Method and the general processes by which we generally......"
OH MY GOD!!!! HOW DARE YOU USE THE WORD "WE." WHY ARE YOU MAKING AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!!!!!!
do you see how fucking stupid you sound?
Deep breaths, dude, deep breaths. I can see I'm going to need to hold your hand through this a little bit.
I said:
“What we don’t know and aren’t any ways near knowing is whether this warming is part of a “normal” cycle of fluctuation or part of a consistent and unusual (and anthropogenic) warming trend that will continue indefinitely. ”
This is where your "we" came in:
"we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend"
You claim that "we" is "society." But I'm honestly asking you how "society" knows things.
Now I imagine the argument will need to be something along the lines of scientists know things, and scientists are part of society, and therefore "society" knows things in the form of a scientific knowledge base that we can all share as a "society."
Am I off, yet?
What I'm saying (as someone who wrote a book on the history of science and philosophy when you were in diapers but who nevertheless does not ask you to take my word on sheer authority) is that scientists saying a thing does not make that thing knowledge, and it certainly doesn't create anything like collective knowledge. In fact I would maintain, and I feel like I'm on pretty solid philosophical ground here, that there is no such thing as collective knowledge - only individual knowledge.
Therefore, your reference to a "we" who "knows" things that the "we" here in this comments section don't is, in fact, a covert appeal to authority being presented in place of an actual argument or sourced fact.
OH MY GOD!!!! HOW DARE YOU USE THE WORD “WE.” WHY ARE YOU MAKING AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!!!!!!
do you see how fucking stupid you sound?
So, having just explained why I took your "we" as a covert appeal to authority, do you see the difference, and do you see that I may not be the one who's sounding stupid in this conversation?
"Now I imagine the argument will need to be something along the lines of scientists know things, and scientists are part of society, and therefore “society” knows things in the form of a scientific knowledge base that we can all share as a “society.”"
that has got to be top ten for most absurd things i have ever seen on here. the definition of society is "the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community." see anything about scientists? anything that even suggests there is any inherent truth to what that aggregate knows? no.... there isn't..... there is just your stupid troll ass trying to play stupid troll games....... and then using the exact same word in the exact same manner i did...... but somehow thinking you get a pass because you want to spit out a bunch of philosophical nonsense about a meaning that never existed and was never implied. (which, as pointed out numerous times, is a very old troll tactic that i called you out on from the beginning..... but you wanted to keep playing until you fucked it up and proved you were just a stupid troll playing stupid games.)
you used the exact same word in the exact same manner i did. your game has failed. you can't continue to play your stupid game without admitting you were deliberately wrong in a way that i was not. even if you want to hold on to your imagined "scientists are part of society" nonsense, it is clear that i never held that view..... and then you..... who do supposedly hold that view..... used the exact same word in the exact same fucking manner.
the definition of society is “the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.” see anything about scientists? anything that even suggests there is any inherent truth to what that aggregate knows?
*facepalm*
So . . . what was your point of saying "we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend?"
I ask you again, who is "we" and why am I not allowed to disagree with "we?" It's actually not society because as much as it may bug you, we all here are part of society and we don't agree with you.
So who are you speaking for when you say "we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend?"
you used the exact same word in the exact same manner i did
With the important distinction that what I said was true. At least, I assume that you accept the Scientific Method as an epistemological principle?
"So . . . what was your point of saying “we know it a lot more definitively than some people want to pretend?”"
I'm sorry basic English and common phrases used in conversation are too difficult for your stupid ass to understand..... even after you use the exact same phrases in the exact same manner.
"With the important distinction that what I said was true. At least, I assume that you accept the Scientific Method as an epistemological principle?"
oh,,,, so you admit that you were attempting to make an appeal to authority?
JFC..... seriously, you fucked up. your game is over..... just STFU.
I’m sorry basic English and common phrases used in conversation are too difficult for your stupid ass to understand
So you have no answer. Noted.
so you admit that you were attempting to make an appeal to authority?
Um . . . no. Do you really not understand how the Scientific Method works?
you tried to connect a meaning to a common word that nobody in all of history has ever intended to be attached to that word..... the troll game being to talk about that at length to distract from how terrible your arguments were when actual facts were involved...... and then you used the exact same word in the exact same manner.
you fucked up, your game is over..... STFU.
Even with warmer winters, we still see evidence of tree lines further north from retreating glaciers.
Spraying 5 pounds or so of chalk for the purpose of measuring the effectiveness in a tiny tiny experimental area would hurt nothing. This is not a proposal to inject chalk into the atmosphere at levels like volcanic eruptions, not yet at least. This is a tiny experiment, but the panic claimed over this tiny experiment seems solely due to a fear that it might prove to be a potential cheap remedy to the problem.
This is not a proposal to inject chalk into the atmosphere at levels like volcanic eruptions, not yet at least.
It's the "not yet" that is the concern.
This is a tiny experiment, but the panic claimed over this tiny experiment seems solely due to a fear that it might prove to be a potential cheap remedy to the problem.
You really can't imagine why I would have any concerns over the lurch towards planetary-scale geo-engineering other than that I don't want global warming solved just because I don't want it solved?
Really?
Not only anecdotal but stupid. I'm glad you base your science understanding on regional word of mouth instead of things like data. Makes you look very intelligent.
Exactly. Id like to see the repeatable experiment that confirms the "global temperature record" of the past 500 thousand years.
I believe the term for this used to be pseudo science.
Or it's manipulated data to defend a political objective.
When they first announced the "hockey stick graph" they admitted that they "massaged the data". Nobody ever defined the definition of "massaged".
Oh hell yeah some people have an agenda, and you’re not likely to get funding if you don’t produce the results that the funders want.
But these last few winters have been beyond mild, while running air conditioners triple my electric bill during the summer. I’m on my way to being persuaded towards believing in AGW.
That however does not equate to agreeing with policies with the stated intention of mitigating it. Those are two separate issues.
I have some exposure to some of the models used by climate researchers at NOAA. I can tell you, the models are frequently ad hoc and contain numerous fudge factors and corrections to massage the data, throw out outliers, adjust that term during this time period, this term during that time period, etc. Further, many temperature measurements are based on proxies--e.g. assuming tree rings are wider during higher temperatures, but there's simply no way to determine how much wider per degree C with specific accuracy.
I'm not saying that their models are wrong, just that, having implemented models like these before, I understand enough of the math to know that a minor mistake in a fudge factor meant to allow dissimilar measurements to be used as if they were from the same dataset can make a huge difference in the validity of the model. Not to mention simple errors in implementation that can have the results "look right" but still be completely wrong.
"In early 2001, CPC was requested to implement the 1971–2000 normal for operational forecasts. So, we constructed a new SST normal for the 1971–2000 base period and implemented it operationally at CPC in August of 2001" (Journal of Climate).
Just the abstract to that particular paper reveals how fragile the models are, being based on assumptions piled on top of assumptions, and unveiling a tendency to massage data.
"SST predictions are usually issued in terms of anomalies and standardized anomalies relative to a 30-yr normal: climatological mean (CM) and standard deviation (SD). The World Meteorological Organization (WMO) suggests updating the 30-yr normal every 10 yr."
How can a normal be updated--the data is the data, and its normal is its normal? This sentence implies that the data is somehow massaged every ten years or so. There may be legitimate reasons to do so, but anytime you massage data, there have to be questions as to the legitimacy of the alteration.
"Using the extended reconstructed sea surface temperature (ERSST) on a 28 grid for 1854–2000 and the Hadley Centre Sea Ice and SST dataset (HadISST) on a 18 grid for 1870–1999, eleven 30-yr normals are calculated, and the interdecadal changes of seasonal CM, seasonal SD, and seasonal persistence (P) are discussed."
This says that data is being assembled from widely disparate data sources, with different measurement techniques, and that some of the data was made with instrumentation that simply cannot be validated (data from 1854?).
"Both PDO and NAO show a multidecadal oscillation that is consistent between ERSST and HadISST except that HadISST is biased toward warm in summer and cold in winter relative to ERSST."
Now we see that different data sets, ostensibly of the same population, disagree. And the fact that one data set exhibits bias to the extreme (too warm in summer and too cold in winter) raises questions about the proper use of this data. One scientist may be able to make a valid claim that the more stable data is in error and "correct" it to be more in line with the more volatile data; another scientist may do the opposite. And their personal bias will play a role as to which way they go.
global temperature changes of the past were measured in thousands of years, while current changes are measured in hundreds.
It continues to amaze me how little you understand anything on any topic.
The past is measured in hundreds of years due to ice core samples being a multi decade melt/refreeze cycle. Since the 1800s daily temp recordings started occurring in a few countries, namely the US. Chinese records show some record keeping of grow length seasons over the last few centuries. The concept of a global temperature didn't exist until about a century ago. Most of the data used to calculate global warming is modeled data and data point regression analysis, based on model contributions.
The irony is that people like Mann tried to eliminate the MWP calling it regional only, despite the concurrence of Chinese growth length documents. You continue to blindly repeat a misunderstanding of the narratives instead of doing basic forms of research.
Again, you know so little about every topic it is painful to read you at times.
The concept of a global temperature didn’t exist until about a century ago.
In fairness, it really didn't exist until the mid 1960's so it's way more recent than even you were willing to credit it for.
And even today, a global average temperature is totally irrelevant and pointless to literally everyone except the IPCC. It's such a high level number that it's meaningless, rather like the global average of people's height.
An ice age is when it gets so cold that when it snows the snow never melts. Instead it accumulates. After a millennia or two you've got an ice sheet. Also works in reverse. Doesn't take much.
I think that has a lot to do with the resolution of the data. The further back you go, the less direct the measurements become. Far enough back and we have no idea what was happening on timescales of hundreds of years.
Carbon dating is good for 60,000 years. Right? Not sure what they use for earlier. Only took four semesters of physics.
Carbon dating is good for 60,000 years. Right?
And that only takes us back as far as the most recent glaciation of the several that have occurred over the past million years.
It takes us back before human civilization.
Sarc – What makes you think the scale over 1 million years looks like the chart scaled to one thousand years? Also, what makes you think that there were no short-term warm years during the Ice Ages or any short-term cold years during the interglacials? If you had been a climate scientist observing the average global temperatures for the thousand years in, let’s say 100,000 B.C. why wouldn’t the warming trend and CO2 levels chart out to look very much like the chart from the most recent interglacial we are in now?
I stopped reading when you started telling me what I think.
false. they do know for a fact that the additional CO2 is coming from fossil fuels. interesting thing about locking carbon up in fossil fuels for few million years is that the isotopes are different than what is already in the carbon cycle. (this is actually how carbon dating works.) the increased amount of CO2 we have seen since the 60's carries this isotope fingerprint.
anyone who tries to make the appeal to ignorance that "we don't know" is either deliberately lying, or someone who who has absolutely no clue WTF they are talking about.
Huh, it’s almost like you didn’t read what you replied to.
Neither you nor anyone else now alive knows whether CO2 levels are rising because of global warming or causing global warming, or a chaotic combination of both.
I’m looking for the claim where they stated that fossil fuels were not the source of increased CO2 levels. All I’m seeing is a correct statement that there is some disagreement on if increased CO2 is a cause or a result of climate change.
Also, for what it’s worth, the parts per million of the atmospheric CO2 concentration is barely even a trace gas at either number.
Water vapor, measured in percentage of the atmosphere, is itself a potent green house gas and covers roughly 70% of the planet. Yet somehow, you manage not to panic about that…perhaps because rather like CO2 it is vital for life to continue on this planet. Take atmospheric CO2 to zero, all life on Earth dies minus a few extremophiles.
Thank you for reminding us that lying and idiocy are not mutually exclusive.
You've been demonstrating that the whole time you've been posting here, shit-pile
"Huh, it’s almost like you didn’t read what you replied to."
your post was a jumble of "i don't know WTF i am talking about" with a crack about mastodons burning fossil fuels at the end. perhaps i gave you too much credit for how much "thought" you have put into the matter.
"....that there is some disagreement on if increased CO2 is a cause or a result of climate change."
perhaps this is what threw me off...... who the fuck is saying the CO2 increase is a result? how fucking out in left field are you to not only make..... but then double down on..... such a stupid fucking argument? nobody thinks the CO2 is a result, and only the deliberately stupid disagree on it as a cause.
"Water vapor, measured in percentage of the atmosphere, is itself a potent green house gas and covers roughly 70% of the planet. Yet somehow, you manage not to panic about that…"
this has already been explained to you today, moron. water vapor is PART OF THE FUCKING EQUATION you idiot.
"Take atmospheric CO2 to zero, all life on Earth dies minus a few extremophiles."
and.... again.... you have to divert to a hypothetical that has zero to do with the discussion, other than demonstrating just how low your reasoning skills are...... that CO2 is needed for life does not mean that adding more CO2 does not increase temperature.
You still don’t know who you are replying to, which is actually kind of sad.
I mean, sure, Reason’s comment section is garbage but…most of us are actually able to tell who said what.
There is at least some plausible data that indicates that CO2 increases after a period of warming, which calls into question the idea that CO2 is what precipitates a temperature change. This is notable during a few periods, some of which involve an ice age with high CO2 levels.
Certainly it’s a factor given that CO2 is, in fact, a greenhouse gas…but it’s actual relevance as a primary driver is far from settled given that the planet Earth’s surface is roughly 70% comprised of another greenhouse gas.
"There is at least some plausible data that indicates that CO2 increases after a period of warming, which calls into question the idea that CO2 is what precipitates a temperature change."
ok.... you are even further down the rabbit hole than i thought.
"Certainly it’s a factor given that CO2 is, in fact, a greenhouse gas…but it’s actual relevance as a primary driver is far from settled given that the planet Earth’s surface is roughly 70% comprised of another greenhouse gas."
i assume you mean water vapor.... the thing that creates the positive feedback that increases the warming beyond the direct impact of CO2..... the thing i have personally explained to you two or three fucking times already..... you and circle (not convinced you are not socks of each other) both seem to want to pretend i have made some claim of simplicity, when i have in fact explained how some of the complexity is what actually makes the impact of CO2 greater. the complex thing you don't understand is actually understood by others and is part of what makes you so fucking wrong.
Sounds like a great idea! With the best of intentions! What could possibly go wrong?
As I indicate below, it sounds exactly like something a James Bond villain would invent or Mr. Burns would pay someone to invent.
Even Hollywood a few years ago, with distinctly "We have to do *something*!" tones, still managed to pump out a 2012-esque doom-porn "Hey, here's some fucked up shit that could happen if we did that." that was more insightful than Harvard/Bailey.
Wasn't the TNT television series adaptation of the movie Snowpiercer premised on scientists trying to do something similar to slow or reverse global warming? The scientific community developed some particle to release en masse into the atmosphere to reflect away some of the solar rays. In the show (it might have also been in the movie, but it was a while ago that I saw it, so I don't know) the procedure works, but then it works too well, diverting so much of the solar radiation that it causes an ice age, killing almost all of Earth's inhabitants--except, of course, those on the Snowpiercer, a giant luxury train that gets it's energy through electric induction moving over the tracks. It's an absurd premise, in part because there would be much better ways of generating electricity than propelling a massive train on a track around the globe, hazardously through ice and debris.
I only watched the first couple seasons, which weren't bad. It did have the undercurrent of Marxism (the rising up of the proletariat, those who forced themselves onto the private train without invitation, against the bourgeoise, the super wealthy who purchased their places on the train and live lavishly) throughout, but it was entertaining, I'll admit.
"What could possibly go wrong?"
same could be said for continuing business as usual.
same could be said for continuing business as usual.
This is very much a false equivalence.
If I have a stomach ache, assuming that it's cancer and cutting my stomach out vs. waiting to see what happens and maybe having an antacid are not on the same plane of action.
It also ignores every possible second or third order consequence, which is I suspect is part of your point.
Climatology claims to have a fairly predictive knowledge of the climate based on 'business as usual'. Right or wrong, that is a claim they make.
They don't make the same claim on geoengineering, meaning they have even less of a clue on what the results of that might be than they do about what the weather will do tomorrow or what the temperature will be in Paris in August of 2150.
Not to mention that the 'consensus' is not as cut and dried as the true believers make it out to be, either, making geoengineering a literal cart before the horse situation.
They don’t make the same claim on geoengineering, meaning they have even less of a clue on what the results of that might be than they do about what the weather will do tomorrow or what the temperature will be in Paris in August of 2150.
Precisely. There's been lots of talk of a warming "tipping point." There's just as likely to be a cooling "tipping point," which would likely be way, way worse.
Reason , where April First comes but 365.24 times a year.
Vvat?
Public Imbecile, where idiocy is constant.
"If I have a stomach ache, assuming that it’s cancer and cutting my stomach out vs. waiting to see what happens and maybe having an antacid are not on the same plane of action."
first, make sure you understand it is a persistent and worsening stomach ache.... that has lasted for years..... and then second make sure you understand the option we are talking about is not blindly cutting out your stomach, it is going to a doctor to learn what treatment options there are.
make those changes, and your analogy becomes a little less stupid.
It seems that in your zeal to take out your anger on people whose understanding diverges from yours you have lost track of what the conversation is about.
Recall that we are discussing spraying chalk into the atmosphere in the belief that it will combat this supposedly imminent existential threat.
Do we know that there is such a threat?
Where is your evidence of a “persistent and worsening stomach ache?” Where is the ache? What about it is worsening?
See if you can answer without insulting me.
if you don't want to be insulted, don't act like an asshole or play stupid fucking games. i didn't insult you until you did that.
as for the rest of your attempt to prop your analogy up...... it is a terrible analogy..... that was my point...... we have data showing the climate is warming. we have data showing excess CO2 is driving that, and we have data showing the burning of fossil fuels is the cause of that. this isn't a short term pain we just noticed..... it is something we have had for a long time and we have had MRI's and blood tests and blah blah blah... and we are at the point of deciding what to do about it.
do we know it is a threat? to make the point you failed to grasp when you came up with your analogy, let me ask you a question....... do you know it is not? because you are the one advocating to do nothing.
do you know that person with mri's and blood tests, and a biopsy showing they have stomach cancer should just do nothing because ONE potential treatment might have risks you don't understand? just suck it up and live life until you die from the cancer or something else. that is where your analogy ends up.
if you don’t want to be insulted, don’t act like an asshole or play stupid fucking games
I don't particularly care about being insulted. If I did, I wouldn't hang out here.
What I'm trying to explain to you is that you're not presenting arguments, and your increasingly shrill insults betray the fact that you don't feel yourself to be standing on solid ground.
Your extension of my analogy assumes we've found cancer, that there's only and exactly one treatment, and that "we" know what that treatment is. But you skipped the part where you showed all the negative effects that we're experiencing, the evidence that we can expect more in the future, and any semblance of knowing what a cure might look like.
Take a deep breath and stop being such a dick.
"Your extension of my analogy assumes we’ve found cancer, that there’s only and exactly one treatment, and that “we” know what that treatment is."
and where do i say there is only one treatment? i said you oppose one potential treatment because you do not understand the risks. the only one assuming that is the only treatment is you.
"But you skipped the part where you showed all the negative effects that we’re experiencing, the evidence that we can expect more in the future, and any semblance of knowing what a cure might look like."
and with this, your analogy is getting even worse..... it sounds like you are considering euthanasia for the planet.... and if you can't actively kill it, at least you will withhold all treatment to reduce prolonged suffering..... you don't even want to consider any treatments.
JFC.... try to find a better analogy..... this one is either terrible, or you really want us all to die.
i said you oppose one potential treatment because you do not understand the risks
Correct, and we also don’t understand the risks of warming, as you yourself admit.
What we do know is that cooling cycles are anathema to life, whereas life on the planet has only ever thrived during warm cycles.
Does this mean it can’t possibly warm so fast as to cause problems? Obviously no. But the actual data shows nothing like a catastrophically fast warming trend.
OTOH, we understand very well how fast the world can turn very, very cold and how catastrophic that would be for all life.
The current worst case likely scenarios involving warming are that standards of living in the future may not be as much better as they could have been. This is per the ICCP.
“Not as much better as it could have been” vs. “90% of humanity dies for sure.”
Which risk do you think is more rational to take, warming or cooling?
Please keep in mind, again, that this discussion is not about whether or not CO2 is a GHG. It’s about whether or not we should be experimenting with large-scale geo-engineering to cool the planet.
You're so pissed that anyone would dare to complicate your theology that you seem to have lost sight of that.
"Correct, and we also don’t understand the risks of warming, as you yourself admit."
so, you admit what you just said was a lie.
"Does this mean it can’t possibly warm so fast as to cause problems? Obviously no."
and.... your previous statement i was responding to was a lie....
"Which risk do you think is more rational to take, warming or cooling?"
and, your entire premise is BS. both can be bad.... one is already happening.... and you don't want to collect any more data to answer the questions we need answered. you WANT to remain ignorant. going back to your stupid ass analogy..... you would rather just wait to see if the patient dies.
so, you admit what you just said was a lie.
Huh? Given that you have a nasty habit of stuffing words in my mouth, I wonder what it is you think I just said?
both can be bad…. one is already happening
Yes, and the one that is happening is the one about which we don't know whether or not there will be negative effects. The one that currently isn't happening we know for an absolutely certain fact would be catastrophic for life on the planet.
That you still can't seem to understand what I'm saying here leads me to believe that you're actively trying not to.
you don’t want to collect any more data to answer the questions we need answered
Again, I have no idea where you're getting this. What's the question we need answered? It seems like the question this particular study that we're talking about right now is asking is "can we cool the planet by squirting a bunch of shit into the atmosphere?"
What I'm saying is that I think this question itself is deeply misguided and is fraught with danger due to humanity's tendency toward self-destructive arrogance.
As I have explicitly said right here on this very page I think the warming trend is worth studying and the potential contributions from anthropogenic CO2 is worth studying. But other things are worth studying, too, such as, say, methane (or even, God forbid, whether or not this even cause for concern), and thinking that other things are also worth studying is not the same thing as wanting to destroy the world.
Again, the fact that you just can't seem to wrap your mind around this and accuse anyone who mentions anything other than C02 of being stupid and dishonest just reinforces my sense that your engagement with this issue is more in the style of a religious fanatic than of a scientifically curious person.
"Huh? Given that you have a nasty habit of stuffing words in my mouth, I wonder what it is you think I just said?"
you claimed i said one thing. i said what i actually said was something else.... and you said correct. you admitted that your first claim of what i said was a lie.
"What I’m saying is that I think this question itself is deeply misguided and is fraught with danger due to humanity’s tendency toward self-destructive arrogance. "
what you are saying is that you think we should continue to follow humanity's destructive nature and just continue to operate like nothing is wrong while refusing to even investigate anything that could be used to improve the situation. i know you want to pretend otherwise, but you are saying "lets just wait and see if the cancer kills him." your argument is that we should REFUSE to even consider any treatment.
".....is more in the style of a religious fanatic than of a scientifically curious person."
my position is that we can collect data to better understand the situation and options. your position is that we should do nothing and have blind faith that everything will be fine without any evidence it will be....... i think you are confused on who is approaching this in the style of a religious fanatic.
To recap:
I made a joking reference to the Unintended Consequences videos by way of pointing out that we shouldn't lose sight of the possibility that if we believe that humanity is capable of kicking off a catastrophic warming cycle that it is also capable of kicking off a catastrophic cooling cycle.
Governments, in my experience, are in fact 100% stupid enough to do something like this.
You took issue with my observation and said that not taking drastic action is just as risky as taking drastic action. I opined that this was a false equivalence, at which point you started calling me names and demanding that I revise my stomach ache metaphor to assume deadly cancer and innocuous treatment. Which is a fine opinion to have, but it doesn't make me an uninformed moron or a reactionary ideologue for not agreeing with it.
Now I don't know what it is you think I claimed about what you said, but this right here is the gist of it in my mind.
what you are saying is that you think we should continue to follow humanity’s destructive nature and just continue to operate like nothing is wrong while refusing to even investigate anything that could be used to improve the situation
No. What I said was
"I think this question itself is deeply misguided and is fraught with danger due to humanity’s tendency toward self-destructive arrogance."
I'm really not sure how to say the thing that I'm saying in a way that doesn't make you decide that I'm saying something totally different.
my position is that we can collect data to better understand the situation and options
That's funny, because mostly what I see is you insulting anyone who suggests that we should collect data to better understand the situation and options, given that you and the gnome in your pocket already understand the whole thing.
a better recap..... you are a dishonest fucking troll...
no longer interested in going through every way you just blatantly lied about the conversation here, or your failure to grasp the English language. (maybe that is why the word "we" gives you such a hard time.)
you can fuck off now.
a better recap….. you are a dishonest fucking troll
What did I say what was inaccurate?
no longer interested in going through every way you just blatantly lied about the conversation here
Why am I not surprised? Do you think no one else can see it?
" Do you think no one else can see it?'
kinda why it's not worth my time. (plus, thread is dead by now any way)
just fuck off.
kinda why it’s not worth my time
Gotcha.
Well color me impressed.
Hey! I am here to defend the reason commenters!
Noone has ever insulted your retard faggot self!
See great moments in unintended cosequences
>>Activists oppose research on how to safely deploy an emergency cooling system for the planet.
Futurama spoofed this nonsense 20 years ago.
You mean the part where they devise an engineering solution to AGW or the part where not wanting actively engage in something makes one an "activist"?
both!
"So to combat global warming, we just drop a large ice cube into the ocean, now and then"
Gabba Wabbu?
Need more testing.
How DARE you try to avoid the punishment humanity so richly deserves at the hands of Mother Gaea! You must all be sent back to the caves without fire or, even better, back into the trees! Harvard and Sweden were made for each other.
'The planet is fine. The people are fucked.' -George Carlin
So, "return to monke"?
MORE TESTING NEEDED!
Not only do you have to save the world from climate change, you have to do it the hardest way possible to signal your virtue.
Mount Pinatubo's 1991 volcanic injection of 17 million tons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, which cooled the planet by about 1 degree Fahrenheit for a year.
I don’t remember an improvement of life in 1991.
There were a lot of nice sunsets. And some good snowy winters.
especially for the Soviets
So when is Ron going to admit his allies don't actually give a shit about the cause they duped him into but just want control?
Same kind of clowns who objected to research into safe methods of storing nuclear waste because it might lead to storing nuclear waste, which they know to be unsafe...
There are also some who wonder whether the notoriously incompetent and ever-distractable government should be trusted with geo-engineering schemes.
Just for the record:
Man cannot 'break' the planet.
Man cannot 'fix' the planet.
Just for the record:
An emergency active global cooling system sounds *exactly* like something Mr. Burns would pay Harvard to invent.
Excellent!
Burns is a Yalie
Mr Burns was running a nuclear plant, remember? Carbon free!
It's pronounced "nuke-u-ler".
Just for the record:
Man can nonetheless make the planet a less congenial place for humans.
Especially if "man" does something really stupid like fill the atmosphere with chalk because "man" is panicking that the temperature might go up a degree or two.
Spoken like a man who never met dolph lungre who will break anything
And like a person who never read the philosophy of Robert van winkle
"if you got a problem, yo, I'll solve it"
So we are bequeathing our kids with a changing climate. You know what would be even more alarming? If we somehow left an unchanging climate considering it's been changing for billions of years.
Nobody is claiming that the climate doesn't change naturally. The argument is that it's changing faster than it would without the burning of fossil fuels. Possibly changing faster than nature can easily adapt. Perhaps it's a good thing. Turn Canada into something productive instead of a frozen wasteland.
It always comes back to "no one knows." Maybe someday when scientists have mastered chaos theory and developed tools to untangle cause and effect in complex nonlinear systems then we can decide whether the drastic socioeconomic interventions they insist on trying to implement which we DO know beyond a reasonable doubt will cause catastrophic economic fallout without really knowing whether it would slow global warming; or even whether slowing warming would be a good thing or a bad thing on balance, THEN we can have this discussion! Until then I do not want you to commit honorable seppuku on me in the name of your ignorance.
It always comes back to “no one knows.”
I agree. Which is why while I lean towards believing the AGW science, I oppose policy inspired by it on general principle. Let markets figure it out.
I do not want you to commit honorable seppuku on me in the name of your ignorance.
What part of I don’t support policy based upon AGW fears do you not understand? I think I’ve said it at least three times in the comments on this article. Respond to what I fucking write instead of reacting to what you think I mean.
We should be congratulating ourselves for leaving a better standard of living for the generations that follow us, with the added possibility of being an interplanetary species.
Sunspots, you fucktard Progs.
We are nearing the cyclical solar maximum, so of course it is getting warmer, you damn power-hungry Greenie-Marxists.
In the dark all watermelons are red.
The sunspots are cooler that the photosphere at large.
In the 24 hours making up a day, Public Imbecile is full of shit.
More and more, they're saying the quiet part out loud.
In polite society, it's called Eco-socialism - Wikipedia, but the phenomenon is so commonplace that there is a slur for it "watermelon". Green on the outside, red on the inside.
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti, made the revealing admission in a meeting with Democratic Washington Gov. Jay Inslee’s climate director in May. A Washington Post reporter accompanied Chakrabarti to the meeting for a magazine profile published Wednesday: “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all...Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,” he added.
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): "Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War... First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues, addressing the same Rio Climate Summit audience, agreed: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Christine Stewart, former Canadian Environment Minister: “No matter if the science is all phoney, there are collateral environmental benefits.... climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
UN official joins long list of “environmentalists” telling the truth…
Ayisha Siddiqa, a “Climate Advisor to the UN General Secretary”:
“You want to know why I got into climate activism, it wasn’t because I wanted to protect the environment (although that is a very valid reason). I became involved [because] the West slaughtered, bombed and starved my people to death in the name of oil. And no one talks about it,” she wrote.
“When I think of fossil fuel, I don’t think of pollution… I think of… organized terrorism and I think of demolished democracies at the hands of the West,” she wrote in a separate post in November 2020.
Wikipedia: Throughout her activism Ayisha has described herself as a Socialist with Marxist leanings. She has also denounced Capitalism as a purveyor of the world’s problems. She has tweeted on multiple occasions for the destruction of the West and that of White people.
The answer is windmills, lots and lots of windmills. /sarc
This is about utopians who want their utopia to be the one chosen, with them in charge. Anything that distracts from that is to be shunned. Since SRM has a high chance of working (has already worked in the north Atlantic in a perverse reverse experiment), it is to be shunned.
The future is either high energy or death. "Sustainability" is a grail chased by unholy fools.
I call fossil fuels solar power, being that they're mostly dead plants.
"(has already worked in the north Atlantic in a perverse reverse experiment)"
Presumably you mean this:
In 2020, international regulations to reduce air pollution from shipping imposed strict limits on the sulphur content of marine fuels.
The International Maritime Organization (IMO) rules have had some success in improving public health. Global emissions of sulphur dioxide (SO2) – a health-damaging air pollutant – have dropped by about 10% as a result.
But the shift to low-sulphur shipping fuel has had an additional consequence.
Sulphur particles contained in ships’ exhaust fumes have been counteracting some of the warming coming from greenhouse gases. But lowering the sulphur content of marine fuel has weakened the masking effect, effectively giving a boost to warming.
Some researchers have proposed that the drop in SO2 as a result of the IMO’s clean air regulations could be behind a recent spike in global sea surface temperature.
Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.
I for one am content with the amount of Simpson's and Futurama references here today, if only that it didnt mean our society has been confirmed to be a parody of itself
I’ve got a solar eclipse coming up in seven days. Bought cardboard glasses for the whole family.
Cardboard is the 100% safest lens material for your eclipse watching needs, and spares your eyes from headlight glare when walking or driving at night.
They probably come from the same factory that made the 3D glasses they handed me at the movie theater.
If you want to be even safer, you can wear them over cardboard contact lenses
Some actual advice from a two eclipse veteran.
Don't even look up until totality, and if you can dark adapt indoors for ten minutes before, do— you will not miss much, because a shrinking featureless crescent is not much to see.
The whole solar system lit up in a straight line is very much worth a look- it's as rare a sight as the solar corona, and the better you are dark adapted when totality starts the more of it you will be able to see.
especially if you have small binoculars, and can be trusted not to reach for them until the sun goes out, and put them down well before the end of totality
I don’t understand. You mean look the opposite direction of the sun? Look for Venus and Mercury?
BTW I’m a hair out of the totality zone.
It gets dark enough to see stars.
When you go outside at sunset, it takes half an hour if twilight for the stars to come out - 30 minutes of decreasing horizon light allows your night vision to adjust.
Eclipse totality is different
There is no twilight- the sky goes black in a couple of seconds.
So if you dazzle your eyes -even with shiny safety glasses, you deprive yourself of most of what you have just four minutes to see
You can't dark adapt in three minutes flat !
Capiche?
Then move heaven and earth to get the thirty odd miles to the midline where totality is 4 minutes long.
Since the difference in luminosity between the corona and the solar disc itself is more than a factor of a million, it's quite literally the difference between night and day.
If you dark adopt just before totality, instead of frying your fovea staring at the boring prelude, you may also get to see what's left of comet Pons-Brook .
Actual advice from another 2 eclipse veteran: fuck off and die.
For someone arguing against scientific ignorance, you're displaying an awful lot of it. Your starting premises are wildly off making your calculation of cost/benefit invalid.
Ron, Mike Mann spoke at Harvard four days ago, and is clearly sticking to Gore's Climate Reality Project playbook.
Under the usual bullshit arguments back and forth the actual lead gets buried.
Any "solution" to the "problem" cannot painless using inexpensive technology, it must be painful using inefficient overpriced technology.
'Last year was the hottest year in the global instrumental temperature record.'
And given that the record covers 0.00001% of the Earth's history, we can be super sure this was significant.
And, BTW, nothing happened. Other than some mercury taking a stretch.
Aren't you extinct yet ?
As freezing/boiling point calibrated thermometers are about to turn 400, the instrumental record covers ~10 % of recorded history
Why would the global warming profiteers want a solution to global warming? It's just like the race-baiters and the LGBT. They depend on the existence of their unsolvable problem to continue milking it for power, fortune, and control.
"Never let a crisis go to waste" loses its utility when the crisis is mitigated/remedied.
Guyana, incidentally, ain't having any of that BS.
https://twitter.com/RangaMberi/status/1773593707087831253
He's exactly right. The climate change cult is disproportionately cruel to developing/growing nations. Because those screeching about climate change are, in fact, insanely racist.
If "climate change" people want to talk seriously about reducing CO2 emissions with scrubbers or catalytic converters, or want to talk about nuclear power, or how to build up a resilient and reliable grid that would be able to support an all-electric US economy on all-electric, or carbon capture technologies, or desalination, or space-based microwave-delivered power, any number of things, I'm happy to talk about those because those are aiming at being a "solution". There is no "solution" ever to be found in the climate change problem by taking money away from "rich" people or countries and giving it to people and countries.
Which is largely what the IPCC proceedings on climate change actually talks about. The IPCC is the ultimate global authority on the subject of climate change. They do a fantastic job of documenting the observed changes and presenting lots of models about the potential changes. But then they spend as much time addressing poverty and inequality as they do talking about actual solutions (and most of the "solutions" proposed take the form of getting government force people to emit less CO2, by any means required...they call it "behaviour- and lifestyle- related measures" and "demand-side management" but what they really mean is "Enabling this investment requires the mobilization and better integration of a range of policy instruments that include the reduction of socially inefficient fossil fuel subsidy regimes and innovative price and non-price national and international policy instruments.") The whole report is basically about money, money controlled by governments...https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/
Chapter 5: Sustainable Development, Poverty Eradication and Reducing Inequalities — IPCC
Why is this even a topic for the IPCC? And it's not limited to one chapter in the report, either...
Enabling Rapid and Far-Reaching Change
The speed of transitions and of technological change required to limit warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has been observed in the past within specific sectors and technologies {4.2.2.1}. But the geographical and economic scales at which the required rates of change in the energy, land, urban, infrastructure and industrial systems would need to take place are larger and have no documented historic precedent (limited evidence, medium agreement). To reduce inequality and alleviate poverty, such transformations would require more planning and stronger institutions (including inclusive markets) than observed in the past, as well as stronger coordination and disruptive innovation across actors and scales of governance.
" talk seriously about reducing CO2 emissions with scrubbers or catalytic converter"
Suggests you seriously misunderstand 'catalytic converters, '
I suppose I was a tad careless in sentence construction there. Perhaps I should have said "talk seriously about reducing CO2 emissions with scrubbers, or catalytic converter for NOX reductions". Also, perhaps, "catalytic converter" was a bit too shorthand for SCR (selective catalytic reduction) used to remove NOx from flue gasses of power plant boilers, gas turbines, etc.
The IPCC is the ultimate global authority on the subject of climate change.
*eyeroll*
They're a UN sock puppet. Anything UN controlled isn't an authority on anything. Except maybe virtue signaling in line with whatever the most popular cause du jour happens to be.
That said, I agree completely about searching for realistic, long-term, cost-effective solutions. But again, solving the problem doesn't serve the interest of those who want to trade off the subject. It's not science to them. It's not a problem TO be solved. It's a religion, complete with saints and heretics.
Actually even to the cancer treatment analogy. Breast cancer is pretty by the book. It is so in depth researched that I (and you) could write the treatment. The other cancers are more difficult. Long story short when you have good science, documentation, and the want to advance society, you can do great things.
Climate scientists have none of these qualities
Climate scientist: Yes, I cooked my Nature article on global warming -- and here's why
The paper I just published—“Climate warming increases extreme daily wildfire growth risk in California”—focuses exclusively on how climate change has affected extreme wildfire behavior. I knew not to try to quantify key aspects other than climate change in my research because it would dilute the story that prestigious journals like Nature and its rival, Science, want to tell.
This matters because it is critically important for scientists to be published in high-profile journals; in many ways, they are the gatekeepers for career success in academia. And the editors of these journals have made it abundantly clear, both by what they publish and what they reject, that they want climate papers that support certain preapproved narratives—even when those narratives come at the expense of broader knowledge for society.
To put it bluntly, climate science has become less about understanding the complexities of the world and more about serving as a kind of Cassandra, urgently warning the public about the dangers of climate change. However understandable this instinct may be, it distorts a great deal of climate science research, misinforms the public, and most importantly, makes practical solutions more difficult to achieve.
climate science has become less about understanding the complexities of the world and more about serving as a kind of Cassandra
Except opposite, because
1) Cassandra was actually right, and
2) No one listened to her.
Monika Kopacz, atmospheric scientist: "It is no secret that a lot of climate-change research is subject to opinion, that climate models sometimes disagree even on the signs of the future changes (e.g. drier vs. wetter future climate). The problem is, only sensational exaggeration makes the kind of story that will get politicians’ — and readers’ — attention. So, yes, climate scientists might exaggerate, but in today’s world, this is the only way to assure any political action and thus more federal financing to reduce the scientific uncertainty."
Researcher Robert Phalen's 2010 testimony to the California Air Resources Board: "It benefits us personally to have the public be afraid, even if these risks are trivial."
The animatrix blot out the sun thing is such a fucking obvious solution!
Of course they're terrified at the notion of a cheap and harmless solution to global warming. Global warming is their excuse to take control of everything, and redesign all of society along their preferred lines. If tomorrow somebody showed up with a magic wand that would make it go away without changing anything else, they'd break that sucker in an instant.
Same for racism.
Witness the judicial murder of the Harvard Scopex experiment, albeit its chief non-experimenter was bearding for carbon capture the whole time.