How a New York Judge Arrived at a Staggering 'Disgorgement' Order Against Trump
The law that Attorney General Letitia James used to sue the former president does not require proof that anyone was injured by his financial dishonesty.

On Friday, New York County Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron ordered Donald Trump to pay a staggering $355 million for repeatedly inflating asset values in statements of financial condition submitted to lenders and insurers. When the interest that Engoron also approved is considered, the total penalty rises to $450 million. All told, Trump and his co-defendants, including three of his children and former Trump Organization CFO Allen Weisselberg, are on the hook for $364 million, or about $464 million with interest.
On its face, a penalty of nearly half a billion dollars is hard to fathom given that no lender or insurer claimed it suffered a financial loss as a result of the transactions at the center of the case, which was brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James. But the law under which James sued Trump and his co-defendants does not require any such loss. The money demanded by Engoron's 92-page decision, which goes to the state rather than individual claimants, is styled not as damages but as "disgorgement" of "ill-gotten gains." It is aimed not at compensating people who were allegedly harmed by Trump's misrepresentations but at deterring dishonesty that threatens "the financial marketplace."
Proving "common law fraud," Engoron notes, requires establishing that the defendant made a "material" statement he knew to be false, that the plaintiff justifiably relied on that statement, and that he suffered damages as a result. Section 63(12) of New York's Executive Law, by contrast, authorizes the attorney general to sue "any person" who "engage[s] in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business." The attorney general can seek "an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling" the defendant's business certificate.
"The statute casts a wide net," Engoron observes. It defines "fraud" to include "any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions." Although Engoron found substantial evidence that lenders and insurers relied on the Trump Organization's misrepresentations, the state did not have to prove that they did or that they suffered damages as a result.
"Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace," Engoron writes. "Indeed, the common excuse that 'everybody does it' is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud."
Engoron ruled that the appropriate standard of proof was a preponderance of the evidence, which typically applies in civil cases and requires showing that an allegation is more likely than not to be true. "Defendants have provided no legal authority for their contention that the higher 'clear and convincing' standard does, or should, apply," he writes. "A clear and convincing standard applies only when a case involves the denial of, addresses, or adjudicates fundamental 'personal or liberty rights' not at issue in this action."
Engoron had previously ruled that disgorgement of profits is one of the remedies allowed by Section 63(12) in this case. "In flagrant disregard of prior orders of this Court and the First Department [court of appeals], defendants repeat the untenable notion that 'disgorgement is unavailable as a matter of law' in Executive Law §63(12) actions," he wrote in that September 2023 decision, which held that Trump had committed fraud within the meaning of the statute. "This is patently false, as defendants are, or certainly should be, aware that the Appellate Division, First Department made it clear in this very case that '[w]e have already held that the failure to allege losses does not require dismissal of a claim for disgorgement under Executive Law § 63(12).'"
In Friday's decision, Engoron reviews the examples of fraud that he described in the earlier ruling. Most notoriously, they include the claim that Trump's triplex apartment in Manhattan's Trump Tower was 30,000 square feet, nearly three times its actual size. That misrepresentation was included in Trump's statements of financial condition (SFCs) from 2012 through 2016 and was not corrected until after Forbes made the glaring discrepancy public in 2017.
In 2012, former Trump International Realty employee Kevin Sneddon testified, Weisselberg asked him to assess the apartment's value. "In response to the request," Engoron writes, "Sneddon asked Weisselberg if he could see the Triplex, to which Weisselberg responded that that was 'not possible.' Sneddon then asked if Weisselberg could send him a floorplan or specs of the Triplex to evaluate, to which Weisselberg also said 'no.' Sneddon then asked Weisselberg what size the Triplex was, to which Weisselberg responded 'around 30,000 square feet.' Sneddon then used the 30,000 square foot number in ascertaining a value for the Triplex."
The value of Mar-a-Lago, Trump's golf resort in Palm Beach, also figured prominently in the case. The deed to Mar-a-Lago precluded it from ever being used as private residential property, a clause that made it eligible for a lower tax rate. Yet SFCs repeatedly valued Mar-a-Lago as if it could be sold for residential purposes. Engoron notes that Trump "insisted that he believed Mar-a-Lago is worth 'between a billion and a billion five' today, which would require not only valuing it as a private residence, which the deed prohibits, but as more than the most expensive private residence listed in the country by approximately 400%"
Other examples of misrepresentations included treating rent-stabilized apartments as if they were not subject to that restriction, assuming regulatory permission for construction that had not in fact been approved, failing to discount expected streams of revenue, dramatically departing from estimates by professional appraisers, and counting Trump's limited partnership interest in a real estate company as cash even though he could not access the money without the company's consent. More generally, expert testimony indicated, Trump tended to value properties based on rosy "as if" assumptions rather than the "as is" valuations preferred by lenders.
The defendants argued that the accountants charged with compiling the SFCs were responsibile for verifying their accuracy. But as Engoron notes, the accounting firms' role was limited to assembling information provided by the Trump Organization, which they assumed to be accurate. "There is overwhelming evidence from both interested and non-interested witnesses, corroborated by documentary evidence, that the buck for being truthful in the supporting data valuations stopped with the Trump Organization, not the accountants," he says. "Moreover, the Trump Organization intentionally engaged their accountants to perform compilations, as opposed to reviews or audits, which provided the lowest level of scrutiny and rely on the representations and information provided by the client; compilation engagements make clear that the accountants will not inquire, assess fraud risk, or test the accounting records."
Trump also argued that the SFCs were unimportant because lenders and insurers would perform their own due diligence. Engoron was unimpressed by that defense, especially with regard to the insurers. "Because the Trump Organization is a private company, not a publicly traded company," he says, "there is very little that underwriters can do to learn about the financial condition of the company other than to rely on the financial statements that the client provides to them."
Were the Trump Organization's overvaluations "material"? Engoron had already concluded that "the SFCs from 2014-2021 were false by material amounts as a matter of law." Under Section 63(12), he says, materiality "is judged not by reference to reliance by or materiality to a particular victim, but rather on whether the financial statement 'properly reflected the financial condition' of the person to which the statement pertains."
If fraud "is insignificant," Engorion concedes, "then, like most things in life, it just does not matter." But that "is not what we have here," he adds. "Whether viewed in relative (percentage) or absolute (numerical) terms, objectively (the governing standard) or subjectively (how the lenders viewed them), defendants' misstatements were material….The frauds found here leap off the page and shock the conscience."
While there is no precise numerical standard for materiality, Engoron says, "this Court confidently declares that any number that is at least 10% off could be deemed material, and any number that is at least 50% off would likely be deemed material. These numbers are probably conservative given that here, such deviations from truth represent hundreds of millions of dollars, and in the case of Mar-a-Lago, possibly a billion dollars or more."
Did those deviations ultimately matter in the decisions that lenders and insurers made? Engoron's summary provides reason to doubt that they did. Deutsche Bank, he notes, routinely "applied a 50% 'haircut' to the valuations presented by" clients, which a witness "affirmed was the standardized number for commercial real assets." A defense witness opined that lenders generally just want to see "the engagement of a warm body of a billionaire to stand behind the loan in his equity infusion and capital."
James nevertheless argued that Trump, by systematically exaggerating his wealth and the amount of cash he could access, misled lenders about what would happen in the event that the Trump Organization could not meet its obligations. And those misrepresentations, she said, allowed the business to borrow more money on terms more favorable than it otherwise could have obtained.
The difference between the interest rates that lenders charged based on Trump's personal financial guarantee and the rates they would have charged without it was crucial to Engoron's calculation of how much the defendants should disgorge. Over their vigorous objections, he accepted the numbers offered by a state witness, investment bank CEO Michiel McCarty, who compared the rate that Deutsche Bank charged the Trump Organization based on Trump's personal guarantee with the rate it proposed for a loan without that guarantee. By McCarty's calculation, the Trump Organization saved a total of about $168 million in interest on loans for four projects.
By itself, that estimate accounts for nearly half of the disgorgement that Engoron ordered. He also included nearly $127 million in "net profits" from the 2022 sale of the Old Post Office in Washington, D.C., which Trump had converted into a hotel. That deal, James argued, was facilitated "through the use of false SFCs," without which it would not have happened. She also argued that "without the ill-gotten savings on interest rates, defendants would not even have been able to invest in the Old Post Office and/or other projects."
Taking into account the partnership interest "fraudulently labeled as cash," James said, "Trump would have been in a negative cash situation" by 2017 but for the $74 million or so "saved through reduced interest payments." She noted that "the Old Post office loan itself was a construction loan, and its proceeds were necessary to the construction and renovation of the hotel, which enabled the 2022 sale and resulting profits."
Engoron found these arguments, especially the first, persuasive. The profits from the sale of the Old Post Office, he concludes, "were ill gotten gains, subject to disgorgement, which is meant to deny defendants 'the ability to profit from ill-gotten gain.'"
Engoron also counted $60 million in profits from the 2023 sale of a license to operate a golf course at Ferry Point Park in the Bronx, which Trump had obtained from the New York City Department of Parks & Recreation in 2012. "By maintaining the license agreement for Ferry Point, based on fraudulent financials," Engoron says, "Donald Trump was able to secure a windfall profit by selling the license to Bally's Corporation."
Although reliance is not required to prove fraud under Section 63(12), it does implicitly figure in these disgorgement calculations. But for the "fraudulent financials," Engoron assumes, Trump would have had to pay higher interest rates on the four loans, and neither the Ferry Point deal nor the Old Post Office renovation and sale would have happened. The defendants, of course, dispute those counterfactuals.
Explaining the need for continued independent supervision of the Trump Organization, Engoron emphasizes Trump et al.'s "refusal to admit error." After "some four years of investigation and litigation," he says, "the only error (inadvertent, of course) that they acknowledge is the tripling of the size of the Trump Tower Penthouse, which cannot be gainsaid. Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint. Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways. Instead, they adopt a 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' posture that the evidence belies."
Engoron "intends to protect the integrity of the financial marketplace and, thus, the public as a whole," he writes. "Defendants' refusal to admit error—indeed, to continue it, according to the Independent Monitor—constrains this Court to conclude that they will engage in it going forward unless judicially restrained. Indeed, Donald Trump testified that, even today, he does not believe the Trump Organization needed to make any changes based on the facts that came out during this trial."
Although Engoron says his court "is not constituted to judge morality," his outrage at Trump's financial dishonesty is palpable. That dishonesty, which is consistent with the ego-boosting lies that Trump routinely tells about matters small (e.g., the size of the crowd at his inauguration) and large (e.g., a presidential election he still insists was "rigged" by systematic fraud), is indeed striking. In this case, however, it did not result in any injuries that Trump's lenders or insurers could identify. Under New York law, Engoron says, that does not matter. But maybe it should.
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This trial was fixed from beginning to end. How many others have been brought to trial over this law?
Here's one: https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/fulton_memorandum_of_law.pdf
Yes, but that case involved "Repeated Neglect, Abuse, and Mistreatment " of patients. How many cases which do not claim anyone has been harmed have been brought under this law? I surely have no love for Trump, but it does seem like this law vests excessive discretion in the Attorney General to sue those she wants to, and not those she doesn't want to. The case will be appealed, and we will see what the N.Y. Court of Appeals says, and possibly (although possibly not) the U.S. Supreme Court.
It also indicates that people died because of the neglect, abuse, and mistreatment.
Leave it to gov’na shrike to be such a disingenuous cunt to compare a victimless “crime” to one that resulted in people’s death.
Sarc is trying for the same false comparison below. Had all day to not be retarded. Failed yet again.
Fists of Fury wonders how many other people have been tried under the law - implying that it's roughly zero. I provided two instances.
You Trump cunts then whine about it.
You steaming pile of shit replies with two irrelevant examples.
"How many others have been brought to trial over this law?"
It's not a widely used law, but the ask was simply, "how many others".
One more TDS-addled shit-pile heard from.
"" but it does seem like this law vests excessive discretion in the Attorney General to sue those she wants to,""
Yeah, James is suing PepsiCo. for litter.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/11/15/heres-why-ny-is-suing-pepsico-over-plastic-pollution-concerns/?sh=7ca7eb6a64a7
Diet Shrike: "Here’s one"
Letitia James today filed a lawsuit against Fulton Commons Care Center, Inc. (Fulton Commons), a nursing home in East Meadow, Nassau County, its owners, its related parties, their owners, and its former administrator (owners and operators) for engaging in a fraudulent scheme that led to insufficient staffing levels, significant resident neglect, mistreatment, and abuse.
Lol, who did you seriously think you were actually tricking?
If you'd bothered to read the complaint (referenced in your own link), you would have seen that this lawsuit was indeed brought under the same NY statute as was the lawsuit against Trump.
But MoLa like the rest of the schneeflocken can't actually do that.
All he can do is say that the acts were different, not that they were charged under a different law.
""All he can do is say that the acts were different,""
Yeah, one people were harmed. The other they were not.
Can you at least admit that that a law that allows the government to sue in civil court and keeps the money without proving harm is bullshit? If you think that's ok, you'll love asset forfeiture laws that sized funds without proof.
""that led to insufficient staffing levels, significant resident neglect, mistreatment, and abuse."'
Actual harm.
Fraud in state/fed program seems like something she should go after. Private business transactions where no one was wronged should not be things to go after.
Here's another
https://casetext.com/case/people-v-world-gaming-corp
Didn't take me long to find.
Did you read either of your citations shrike?
This should be good…
It’s not kiddie porn, is it? Afraid to click on it.
His first "example" was actually about neglect, mistreatment, and abuse of the elderly in an old folks home.
This one is 25 years old and was about internet gambling in Antigua while physically in New York.
http://www.internetlibrary.com/cases/lib_case65.cfm
This is how big of a shill SRG2, folks. Read the links and then come back and treat this fake Oxford law student accordingly.
What’s sad is it took about 30 seconds to realize both his links were bullshit.
MoLa unable to distinguish between what facts and what law.
The malign ignorance of you authoritarian cunts is truly something to behold. And calling me fascist when you're the ones who look forward to a Trumpian dictatorship is sadly amusing.
You would have no compunction about Trump using the power of his office against "enemies".
I doubt a single one of you didn't like it when Trump shouted, "lock her up".
""a Trumpian dictatorship""
There will be no such thing even if he is elected.
Trump can only get four more years. You can pretend and fear people who say Trump should serve longer than that. There were people that thought Obama should stay longer than 2 terms. Did that mean Obama is a dictator? No.
That too. Where are people getting the idea that Trump is going to be a dictator? Or any more of a dictator than any recent president anyway.
The media. Including social media.
That is what they mean when they say Trump will be the end of democracy.
Trump should have locked her up. Hillary Clinton is a criminal and a traitor. But you’re a democrat and don’t believe in the rule of law.
You would have no compunction about Trump using the power of his office against “enemies”.
We're already there, buddy. You think that hasn't been happening for years already? I think it's a terrible situation, but what do you expect when people have been desperately trying to get Trump on whatever they can for 8 years?
Trump absolutely should go after the democrats for their litany of crimes and treason. Real crimes. Not the phony made up shit they’re trying to prosecute him for.
Did she get locked up? I miss all those BLM protestors in prison too.
Where are the examples of Trump using power against his enemies?
It's funny people like you Shrike like to project what you would do on people. Remember people thought Trump would send women to camps like the Handsmaid tale.
On the other side, Obama uses drone strikes on citzens, Biden lets cronies do what they want as long as they pay. Democrats break the law constantly but it's fine because...
Trump was such a dictator we didn't have elections anymore right?
Did OP ask for legal analysis or just cases? SRG provided cases, if they don't fit your narrative, well so be it.
Yes. Both fell under 63(12).
Next.
Fuck off and die.
Bitch please, you’re embarrassing yourself.
Judge pre determines guilt before a single witness testifies. Ignores witness testimony of no harm. Ignores all the facts. Hates trump. Then verdict.
Easy peasy.
Even before -- AG runs a campaign on "getting" a specific person and sets up an entire political apparatus based on somehow shoehorning his behavior into any criminal statute she could find.
And yet here are Jeffy, and SRG2 and Sarcasmic to tell us how this overt fascism is okay and totally not the equivalent of anything Putin did, because orangemanbad.
Ask, and ye shall receive wisdom! Knock, and the doors will be opened wide for ye! The pearls will yea verily be cast even unto the swine! Now it is up to YE, having been led to the water, whether ye will DRINK deeply, or if ye will just horse around!
Orange Man bad?!? He BAD, all right! He SOOO BAD, He be GOOD! He be GREAT! He Make America Great Again!
We KNOW He can Make America Great Again, because, as a bad-ass businessman, He Made Himself and His Family Great Again! He Pussy Grabber in Chief!
See The Atlantic article https://feedreader.com/observe/theatlantic.com/politics%252Farchive%252F2016%252F10%252Fdonald-trump-scandals%252F474726%252F%253Futm_source%253Dfeed/+view
“The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet” or this one…
https://reason.com/2019/09/02/republicans-choose-trumpism-over-property-rights-and-the-rule-of-law/
He pussy-grab His creditors in 6 bankruptcies, His illegal sub-human workers ripped off of pay on His building projects, and His “students” in His fake Get-Rich-like-Me realty schools, and so on. So, He has a GREAT record of ripping others off! So SURELY He can rip off other nations, other ethnic groups, etc., in trade wars and border wars, for the benefit of ALL of us!!!
All Hail to THE Pussy Grabber in Chief!!!
Most of all, HAIL the Chief, for having revoked karma! What comes around, will no longer go around!!! The Donald has figured out that all of the un-Americans are SOOO stupid, that we can pussy-grab them all day, every day, and they will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing us right back!
Orange Man Bad-Ass Pussy-Grabber all right!
We CAN grab all the pussy, all the time, and NONE will be smart enough to EVER grab our pussies right back!
These voters simply cannot or will not recognize the central illusion of politics… You can pussy-grab all of the people some of the time, and you can pussy-grab some of the people all of the time, but you cannot pussy-grab all of the people all of the time! Sooner or later, karma catches up, and the others will pussy-grab you right back!
I see a gray boss appeared below you. Was it gibbering nonsensically while eating it’s own shit?
That’s what summary judgment is for. You don’t need witness in court. The decision can be made on filings.
And, of course, like any other civil respondent, Trump can appeal if he believes the judge got something wrong.
This isn't their beloved Russia: Due process, the rule of law, etc., still apply.
Now when democrats are involved.
Lex talionos est justicia Jovus.
Next case.
Not to worry. Hochul promises the business community that NY won't fuck with you unless your name is Trump.
This right here.
Or unless they really, really need to fuck with you. For reasons.
"You might be the next Trump! We can't take the risk of another Emanuel Trumpstein!"
There wasn't even a real trial. The judge ruled pre-trial that Trump was at fault and the whole hearing was to assess damages. It was all for show.
Soviet show trial.
I think the Reds did it better.
(Uh oh, now I will get exiled for praising Putin.)
Don't worry, Stalin did it better and he's still pretty damn popular with the SRG2 crowd. Just look at him immediately below pretending that a high asking price is "lying. He'd shit himself at a Sotheby's or Barrett-Jackson auction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_trials
The only bright spot is New York has just launched the biggest corporate exodus since the Soviet Revolution.
Has Navalny's estate named Carlson as a witness or accessory in its wrongful death suit against Putin?
It would make a great show trial.
VVhy vvould they? Do they think journalism outside the narrative should be a crime like you? Pravda has nothing on your facist ass. And the vvay Biden's exploiting Navalny’s death to funnel more taxpayer money to Raytheon, it's just as likely the CIA killed him.
Now fvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvck off back to your scam site.
…. zzzzzzzzzz.
You’re subnormal trash. Did you know that?
That’s what summary judgment is for.
Guck off you evil marxist cunt. There is no way in any but the most corrupt proceeding that this comes to any sort of summary judgement over the objections of the defendent.
This isn't your beloved Russia: all decisions of this court can be appealed (assuming Trump can find lawyers to sign on the dotted line).
All decisions in Russia and even the Soviet Union could be appealed (if you lived long enough). It just so happened that all appeals were denied if Stalin, or now Putin, didn’t like you. It’s not like the Russians today, the Soviets, or even the Nazis (before the war anyway) just put people in prison – they had their show trials with predetermined results. They used actual laws on the books, but twisted the law and/or the facts to make sure they got the result they wanted.
The argument from the Trump camp is that this is exactly the same – they don’t like Trump so they found an excuse to punish him and held a show trial to justify the punishment. I guess the story they want to sell is that out of all New York businesses over the last 60 some years, only Trump’s business is so fraudulent to merit this type of penalty. Knowing a little bit of New York business history, it’s not surprising that a lot of people aren’t buying their story.
The law also requires Trump to front the full amount of money to even appeal a decision.
Nothing like a law that insures appeals are nigh impossible for fraudulently large amounts.
"The law", in this case, is New York law; there is nothing in this statute which changes New York law in that respect. Trump has the money--he keeps telling us he's a billionaire!
"You're so vain, you probably think this law is about you..."
"damages"
How can it be "fixed". The facts were mostly undisputed. Trump committed fraud. The judge followed the letter of the law.
No fraud was possible you stupid shitbag.
How is it fraud when there are no victims? The bank said we got our money?
You do realize that all real-estate developers do stuff like this? No one will invest in NY anymore.
BTW, Trump has been in NY since the 80s. Since he's not a dem anymore he's prosecuted now. Funny huh?
Kevin O'Leary talked to CNN. Go hear his take.
Probably a more appropriate version of the question to ask is whether any other case has been brought in which none of the alleged "victims" claim to have been harmed in any way?
Since the judge dismissed the "everybody does it" defense as a reason for more charges on more people, rather than letting one defendant off, has any other property developer ever been charged for using "as if" valuations for collateral properties in cases where their loans were fully paid off in a satisfactory manner?
Seems like any apartment building could be "properly" valued at what it would be worth if it "went condo" regardless of whether or not it's currently subject to rent control since that would eliminate the distinction of whether or not the owners are allowed to charge market value rents.
Just because a particular law is invoked in a charge doesn't mean the incidents are similar. Jeffrey Dahmer and Bernard Getz were both charged with homicide, but nobody would pretend that their cases are at all comparable.
The more appropriate question is whether the attorney general would have brought this lawsuit, and if the Judge would have issued the same ruling, against any other business run in the same manner but not owned by Donald Trump.
Lady Justice is supposed to be blind.
In short, Trump lied, the lies saved him $355mm or so, and so according to NY law he should disgorge that $355mm. He's not losing $355mm, he's being deprive of a fraudulent gain of $355mm.
And it's going to the people he defrauded, right? Right?
"The victim is capitalism"
Funny how the victim is also the sworn enemy of the left.
But I have to admire their cognitive dissonance.
Must be just a coinky-dink, right SRG2?
Idiot DNC politruk.
Here, you and I are in agreement. But I note that fines in criminal cases don't usually go to the victims, so it's at least consistent with US jurisprudence.
The banks testified they weren't victims and would continue to do business with Trump shrike.
If the banks did not feel cheated and would do business with Trump, why then did he lie about the value of the assets?
Also is that banks or just bank? Was it Deutsche Bank alone or did others testify?
Hi parody. You've already demonstrated you have no knowledge regarding financial transactions.
The fag thinks banks don't do their due diligance
To be fair, the Germans were especially idiotic about buying mortgage-backed securities, even after the scam started to unravel.
Why shouldn’t they have been?
I mean, compare what happened there to what happened to Trump, who harmed nobody.
The banks (and the industry), in punishment for defrauding everyone and wrecking the economy were gifted with near zero rates and a massive influx of cash. Robosigners (which we would call “forgers” in a just world) caused nobody to go to jail. Massive misvaluation of assets caused nobody to go to jail. Everyone initiating a mortgage on a “liar’s loan” was committing fraud, nobody was punished. Actually, they were rewarded, with huge piles of cash that the average consumer couldn't borrow (Dodd Frank made it extremely unpalatable) while asset holders poured into the discount real estate, pulling it off the market for normal homebuyers, bolstering reits, all on free government money from QE and QEII and... QE Ad Nauseum.
Fuck man, why should the bank worry. Massively privatized profits and socialized risk there. Huge perverse incentives.
But, yeah, good on NY for prosecuting one individual on a victimless crime that actually made the bank a profit.
The real question is, who cares?
They also said they would have issued the loans, with the same terms, had Trump's valuations matched their own. So Trump didn't gain anything, fraudulently or otherwise.
The banks know people lie to them because the banks lie to people. At least they aren't trying to paint themselves as morally superior like this peice of shit prosecutor who simply stole a huge sum from Trump that will go into her office coffers. Wonder how that money will be spent.
Rich developers need to abandon the New York market. It's not safe for them if they've ever been less than 100% honest with their banks.
And he wasn't lying to them, because value is determined solely by the purchase price. Everything else is wild guessing.
If Mar a Lago was sold for five dollars, that's its worth. If it was sold for a billion dollars, then that's its worth.
Anyone, whether an appraiser, real estate agent, banker, corrupt prosecutor or crooked judge who says "Mar a Lago is worth 'X' dollars", is doing the exact same thing as the Trump organization did.
SRG2, Sullum, James and her crooked judge all know this, but are willing to be monumentally dishonest for the sake of orangemanbad.
Mar a Lago is worth more to Trump than to anyone else, because may become his retirement home of last resort : creditors can't seize a bankrupt Floridian’s residence.
You do like to make up the most inane fantasies, don't you, fvvvcknut.
Fantasy resides in imagining that Broke Orange Man can pay what he owes without liquidating his family's assets.
He is no more immune to justice than his son in law's father.
Cope and seethe you fascist bitch:
https://usaherald.com/donald-trumps-truth-social-app-set-to-go-public-could-net-him-millions/2/
It was a civil case.
It's not a criminal case.
And that matters because, among other things, a criminal case requires a higher burden of proof.
"But I note that fines in criminal cases don’t usually go to the victims, so it’s at least consistent with US jurisprudence."
And that has to do with this civil case exactly how, asshole?
It was likely in response to this question: "And it’s going to the people he defrauded, right? Right?"
Indirectly. It goes to the state.
(Had he been sued for fraud, yes, the money would have gone to the victims of his fraud. But this wasn't a fraud case, as you know.)
Which means it's merely state-sanctioned theft, again, something this magazine has railed against for a long time. Of course, Sullum has a severe case of TDS so he cannot see past that blinder.
Wow, a "state-sanctioned theft" law!
That ought to be easy to get struck down, don'thcha think?
A lot of bullshit to break down. For shrike.
Evaluations are not bullshit.
Banks did their own evaluations.
They testified their loan rates would have been the same with the valuations.
They testified they were not harmed and wanted to continue to have Trump as a client.
Continue shrike.
But the government found a witness to testify that the banks would have charged a higher rate if the borrower was "some guy".
I agree that that is the finding - but I think NY law is basically extorting that penalty if they themselves weren't harmed.
IMO - if fraud per se is a serious enough problem so that NY itself is at future risk of helping to shield future liability, then the penalty should be to prohibit that entity from all future business and or property ownership in the state.
"He’s not losing $355mm, he’s being deprive of a fraudulent gain of $355mm..."
You need to establish what "fraud" was committed.
No, the judge does--and did.
The judge's reasoning was flimsy at best, and he had already made up his mind well before the trial started.
Are you referring to the pre-trial stage?
All appealable, as you know.
That's blatantly not true. It was a $125 million loan.
What ‘lies’?
SRG2's, because assigning value is subjective by its nature and can't be a lie.
And value for collateralized loan purposes is at the sole discretion of the lender, not the borrower. But SRG2 is too stupid to understand that.
Why is the money going to the state and not to the lenders he defrauded?
Seems to me that if they have documentation he underpayed interest, they know who is owed that interest.
And it's not the state.
Who's the money going to? If it's a fraudulent gain, who's the victim?
When is Trump going to pay back all of the investors that He ripped off in 6 bankruptcies? No victims here, hunh?!?!
https://feedreader.com/observe/theatlantic.com/politics%252Farchive%252F2016%252F10%252Fdonald-trump-scandals%252F474726%252F%253Futm_source%253Dfeed/+view
It was 4 bankruptcies, out of 250 businesses under the Trump Organization banner which I presume have been making money. Looks like the biggest victim of those bankruptcies was Trump himself.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/21/carly-fiorina/trumps-four-bankruptcies/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/
PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession.
Why the discrepancy? Perhaps this will give us an idea: Trump told Washington Post reporters that he counted the first three bankruptcies as just one.
SQRLSY back now... HIS RIPPED-OFF CREDITORS ARE STILL RIPPED OFF!!! AND PRES. LINCOLN IS STILL DEAD!!!!
How many times did you personally go bankrupt, Sqrlsy? Glass house, throwing stones.
My guess is he’s got a court appointed Guardian ad Litem that handles his finances.
I've always payed my bills. I HAVE been RIPPED OFF by greedy, vain, selfish, self-righteous, and EVIL assholes like Trump, though, at least a few times! Then I wised up! All you Trumpaloos STILL haven't wised up, so I'm obviously a LOT wiser that you Trump-trucks full of rocks-for-"brains"!
Hahaha, sucker!
Seriously though, that you got ripped off by someone that reminds you of Trump explains your unhinged rage. Have you talked to your therapist about this?
Historians have wised up! They know that Trump SUCKS, way down at the bottom!
https://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-report-trumps-dismal-063325086.html
When are YOU gonna wise up?
"Hahaha, sucker!"
People like R Mack Who Talks and Snorts Smack... And Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer ass well... Regard the whole local galactic cluster ass full of "suckers" to be milked for the benefit of them and theirs! They know NOTHING about karma or benevolence; they think they're doing a SERVICE in abusing those those who DESERVE to be ripped off! And these EVIL, GREEDY, AND SELF-CENTERED pussy-grabbers think that the "enemy" will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing them right back!
Right, R Mack Who Talks and Snorts Smack, ye EVIL, GREEDY, AND SELF-CENTERED pussy-grabber? (I could name more than a few udders around here ass well.)
When you calculate your wealth in terms of feces, like SQRLSY does, how does one go bankrupt?
You have to have a job and not leave in your parents basement to go bankrupt. Better question for Sqrlsy is many times has he gone around the neigherhood having to tell everyone he is a pedo
Didn’t the judge “value” Trump’s Mar A Lago home at something like $18 million? The value of my old fixer-upper with drafty windows, roof rat issues, leaky basement, 1960s linoleum kitchen and no-shit Knob-and-tube wiring is valued at nearly $1 million dollars.
Fuck off, judge.
Do you think Trump's valuation, which ignored all the restrictions placed on it - including its not being permitted to become a residential dwelling - was reasonable?
It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what the lenders think.
edit: After the lenders did their own valuation.
Or are you feeling around the edges of, "there the banks were, minding their own business when... ALL OF A SUDDEN!"
Did the bank not get their own appraisal done?
Also, I can value my copy of the first appearance of Wolverine at $100MM. That doesn’t mean it’s actually worth that or that I’ve defrauded anyone.
If a collector offered you only 50 million and you took it, did you commit fraud? The only committment would be the collector getting committed to an asylum, but you would be innocent.
And what if the lenders took Trump's own valuation into account?
For purposes of debate, though, it does matter whether you think Trump's valuation was reasonable, though I understand your reluctance to address the question.
They didn’t. Per testimony.
God damn shrike. Try to not be ignorant. They also determined their own evaluation.
"And what if the lenders took Trump’s own valuation into account?"
That is a matter of importance to Trump and the lender(s) only. Not yours, you pathetic pile of shit.
"And what if the lenders took Trump’s own valuation into account?"
And what of it? That would just lend more credence to the Trump Organization's estimate if giant international banking organizations took it into account.
You know who probably knows less about property evaluations than global moneylenders? Corrupt prosecutors and a crooked New York judge.
Obviously SRG2 knows as little as them.
Lenders don’t take borrower’s claims of collateral value ‘into account’, ever. That’s why they order appraisals and have staff appraisers review their work.
"And what if the lenders took Trump’s own valuation into account."
1) They testified they did not.
2) They'd be open to mass lawsuits by any investors in the bank.
A smoking hot female bank approached him and said "my bank friends and I are looking for some fun, want to come back to my place?"
Now I'm not a huge bank, but can hold my own. I never expected this would happen to me
I thought you were a finance guy shrike. When you make an evaluation do you rely solely on the client or do your own evaluation?
Irrelevant. A borrower’s claims of value are meaningless. Lending institutions order independent appraisals to establish value for any loam request. Those appraisals are then reviewed by in house staff appraisers to ensure the lending institution is satisfied with the valuation. And any information disclosed on the initial application is irrelevant for purposes of determining fraud. Only the final application signed at closing of the loan matters.
Full disclosure, I’ve been in real estate finance for nearly 30 years. Most of that in commercial real estate. So feel free to ask questions if any part of that confuses you.
SRG2 is too scared to respond. Figures.
Trump’s valuations are not relevant to any loans obtained on the subject properties. Asking a question like that shows you have zero knowledge of how collateralized lending works. Same with the crooked idiot judge and the crooked idiot prosecutor.
There's a lot of much smaller properties on the same island going in the 50+ million range, and at least one that I saw that is also significantly smaller, asking for nearly $200 million currently for sale right now.
https://www.zillow.com/palm-beach-fl-33480/
The issue apparently overlooked by you is that Mar-a-Lago can only be used as a private club
How financially illiterate are you shrike?
So?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar-a-Lago
In 2022, Forbes estimated the value of the estate at around $350 million.[27] Forbes said that 'Real estate experts outside of Palm Beach guessed that the place was worth more than $200 million. Brokers on the island thought it could be worth far more, with the most aggressive estimate coming in at $725 million. When Forbes last valued the property in March, we went with a conservative $350 million.' In a 2022 lawsuit filed by New York Attorney General Letitia James, it was alleged that Trump inflated the value of Mar-a-Lago to $739 million, when the property should actually be valued at $75 million.[41]
Except that’s a quirk of how it’s deeded and not a proper restriction. It could easily be rezoned. And it definitely IS a residence, regardless how it’s deeded.
You apparently suffer from abysmal ignorance, TDS and an immensely inflated opinion of yourself.
So what? The bank’s appraisers determine value for their purposes. Period.
It seems like an 8th Amendment violation. If no party to the transaction is suing Trump, then the case becomes effectively a criminal case, and the 300M fine seems a tad excessive.
It's also a 7th Amendment violation, since the amount is over 20 dollars. Trump was entitled to a jury trial.
I suggest you look at the actual law 63(12) before you comment further on this.
If the law violates 7A and 8A, then it needs to be overturned on appeal. The law is wrong and open to abuse as noted by what Engoron and James just did. Usually this magazine comes out against such takings instead of trying to justify them as Jacob "TDS" Sullum just tried.
Unfortunately, any economic restriction is constitutional if there is any conceivable reason for the restriction whether or not, that reason was in fact, the reason used by the legislature. The only exception is if the reason is blatantly irrational and bears no connection to the goal of the legislation. Unless that law was passed in order “To prevent the forceable impregnation of unicorns by Yeti on the Sabbath” no court below the Supreme Court can overturn that law on Constitutional grounds. See “Lee Optical”.
But how do they get around excessive fines? Because it purports to be a civil violation? Serious question.
Without doing all the research (correct me if anyone has done the research), I suspect they get around excessive fines by calling it disgorgement and not, technically, a punishment. The Supreme Court has held that punitive damages must bear some relationship to the actual harm caused – almost never permitting more than a 10x punitive:actual damages award, and usually considerable lower.
However, it seems the theory here is that this is not punitive, it is just disgorgement of illicit profits. Therefore, no excessive fine.
Seems to me that the entire statute is on shaky constitutional ground although I don't know if Trump is making that case. This is another novel application of an obscure law that I don't believe has been challenged in a federal court. Hopefully SCOTUS will get a look at it someday.
AP, not exactly the alt right, did their own analysis and determined the law has never been used to represent a business or consumer that was not actually harmed.
That won’t stop the guvna.
Which helps make the case for Presidential Immunity. The fact that a law like this is being used to attack a disfavored political candidate over what shouldn't be a crime and definitely did not cause harm to anyone, and the fact that the law has never been applied to anyone except the former president, that really shows how weaponized the courts are right now.
It would be convenient if you provided a link to that AP source so we could see exactly what they found
Why? The example you have had harm. Your own examples are consistent with the AP.
This whole thing is bullshit. Read what I wrote above. This is only happening because the prosecutor and judge hate Trump. And you’re only defending them because you do too.
The case is absurd in it’s face.
Your quarrel appears to be with the law, not the case.
I trust you will now be leading the campaign to repeal the law? Or will you just settle for spewing electrons about a particular application of the law against your dear leader, leaving all the other potential victims of this unjust law to their fate?
The premise for the case is bullshit. Lenders makes their own assessment of value. This can be higher or lower than what the borrower thinks. And that number is what is on the final application signed at loan closing. Period. So Trump, or any borrower can’t commit ‘fraud’ in this manner.
Is this now clear to you? And as I’ve stated elsewhere here, I’m a real estate finance professional and have been so for nearly 30 years. So I’m well aware what constitutes fraud, and what does not.
This case does not.
Exactly.
Since this law demands penalties that are clearly punitive, without proving damages to any party (and since the plaintiff is the State), it is in actuality a criminal statute, not a civil one. And needs a jury trial. As you say, unConstitutional on at least three counts: You need to add Article III.
Frankly, this is obvious enough that it would seem to me that both the prosecutor and the judge are “levying war upon the Constitution of the United States” (again, see Article III paragraph 2) and should be punished accordingly.
FWIW
but wait! there’s more!! a poison pill with every award
goto 3:16
Damn. This law should be thrown out completely.
The law does not demand penalties. It demands disgorgement. If you have to return money you stole, that's not a penalty. Was Trump fined substantially in excess of the economic benefit he derived from his lying? No.
""Was Trump fined substantially in excess of the economic benefit he derived from his lying? ""
What that benefit ever calculated?
The bank benefited from his lying with the interest. Should we go after the bank for their ill-gotten gain?
7th amendment has only been held to apply to federal courts, it has never been incorporated to apply to state courts.
14th Amendment.
Except because in any given court composition the authoritarian dickweasels were the majority and too conceited to admit that the Slaughterhouse cases were wrongly decided the 14th amendment doesn't apply and individual amendments have to be incorporated through the abomination that is substantive due process.
It aims not to compensate people who were allegedly harmed by Trump's misrepresentations but to deter dishonesty that threatens "the financial marketplace."
Ironic, then, that the primary effect of the ruling will be to encourage participants in New York's financial marketplace to seek another state jurisdiction to conduct business in.
No, other businesses will recognize that this case was cooked up specifically to target Trump, and no one else needs to be worried about it.
Despite the fact that the courts have to pretend this is about something other than punishing exclusively trump.
The thing is every major real estate developer gives liberally to whoever is in charge in NYC and Albany, just as Trump has so they will not be targeted unless they go against the National Socialis….eh I mean Democrat party. I would love to see congress subpoena every major developer who does business in NY’s records for the last 20 years to see how prevalent what Trump did is and then they would be forced to go after them as well…that truly would drive them out of NY or force NY to drop this crap against Trump.
Yes, they give liberally to Democrats, but what if they back the wrong Democratic horse? The internecine warfare can be vicious, and now the winning politicians have a new tool to punish anyone that backed the losers. Could be fun.
Yes that's inevitable in a one party state.
Maybe. Or maybe other business owners recognize the naked political power flex against anyone the state sees as undesirable. And they decide to operate elsewhere.
or become toadies
Just like the income tax was cooked up to target millionaires and nobody else need worry about it...you can't be so stupid to think that this weapon will go unused if it's allowed to remain in the arsenal.
Nice dreaming. Other business will think 'why do I risk being in NY where can fall out of favor anytime for not saying/doing what certain people want". Trump was always left of center. He was in NY for decades. But now, since he isn't on the right team he got prosecuted.
A 4 year can see that. Hey, O'Leary even just said the same thing on CNN as an example. Go look it up.
So the statute allows this shady AF decision because it creates a definition of fraud where nobody needs to have been harmed. That's the worst of all worlds for NY, because who knows when or against whom this statute might be used next. If Trump is right that everyone does it (no doubt mostly to a far lesser degree) then anyone could be at risk, and Gov Hochul's statement that law abiding businesses have nothing to fear is mostly meaningless. I expect to see many relocating to other states, and probably a few hedging their bets with campaign contributions to AG James.
“law abiding businesses have nothing to fear”
She’s probably telling the truth, in so far as “law abiding” means in good standing with the party.
This.
And in addition to individual standing, the business cannot be involved with any other individuals or products the party does not approve.
"and probably a few hedging their bets with campaign contributions to AG James."
$Ka-ching$. Just like in the good old days of Tammany Hall.
And there was no fraud anyway. Since the lender determines value through their due diligence, a borrower’s claims are irrelevant and not the basis for the loan. The only possible ‘fraud’ would be the lender defrauding themselves through a bogus valuation.
Only a crooked democrat could invent crap like this.
The money demanded by Engoron's 92-page decision, which goes to the state rather than individual claimants, is styled not as damages but as "disgorgement" of "ill-gotten gains."
Big surprise there.
Let me guess, it'll all go to housing 'migrants' as a budget stop-gap?
It's not hard to guess that there will be an exodus of businesses from New York after this ruling. Maybe just a few in the grand scheme of things, but if they can do this to an ex-President just imagine what they can do to you.
If "business as usual" in New York involves dishonesty, then anyone who plans to do business in New York dishonestly should indeed flee while they have their assets intact. That would have a truly devastating effect, wouldn't it?
How did Trump defraud a bank who ordered their own appraisal and performed their own in house appraisal review?
Explain this to me.
No response? Are you scared?
From the campaign to produce accurate headlines:
(aka the bee)
https://babylonbee.com/news/judge-orders-trump-to-pay-whatever-amount-it-takes-to-bankrupt-campaign
Finally, a reasonable explanation for Engoron's decision.
So, as was suspected Trump is not collecting money to campaign but rather to cover his legal costs. Remember that when you send him money.
You do know what the Babylon Bee is...right?
Satire is tough for retards.
To be fair, it is tough for satirists to stay ahead of the retards.
Lol.
I know you would like to see Trump bankrupt but it looks like the Truth Social deal could triple his net worth.
I think Trump's Truth Social company is incorporated in Delaware. Has the inevitable investigation begun yet?
Parody.
You are definitely one of the better parodies.
But what do you call it when the parody is not intentional, or even aware?
Jeffy.
Jeffy is well aware he's lying. The only person here that believes their own bullshit is Sarcasmic... and maybe Sqrlsy.
Maybe he’s like Leslie, a sentient ad?
https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips/1g6zpq/south-park-does-she-know
That would be Jesse. He is not even aware that he is a useful idiot for Team Red.
"NO! Jesse!!"
Fuck off Jeff. Everyone hates you because you're a paid shill and an inveterate liar.
It amuses me greatly how much the fake libertarians like jeff and sarc hate me =)
All i do is expose the frailty of their arguments and expose their biases.
Oh likewise Jesse. I am proud that the mean girls aka authoritarian assholes like you, ML, ITL, Troll Mac, etc., hate me. I would not want to be liked by right-wing assholes like you.
Of course we hate you. We care about this country. You want to destroy it, and do horrific things to children. You’re pure evil.
I read this as "invertebrate" liar.
Still applies.
He’s also a morbidly obese lobbyist for the pedophile agenda. By his own admission here.
His legal battles have become his campaign. The more he is persecuted, the more solid his support becomes.
I hate how true your statement is.
I mean, I never liked Trump. Voted for him, because Hillary, but after the last decade I would never, ever, for all the tea in China, vote for a Democrat for any political office anywhere. The last four years have changed that perception from "their politics are distasteful" to "giving them power is dangerous." Every time I might think I am just being paranoid I look to this and wonder if I'm being paranoid enough.
I cannot be alone in this. I mean, the only good thing I can say about Republicans is that they aren't Democrats, and yet this persecution has bred a guaranteed R vote.
Boss Hogg versus Pol Pot. You can choose Hazzard County or Year Zero Cambodia.
I’ll be honest, I’m very torn on how I’m going to vote in Texas this year. I usually try and vote libertarian down ticket and for state positions (ballot access and it would be nice if some of our fiscal house could get put in order). The only thing I do know is I will NEVER vote for a democrat.
The last four years have changed that perception from “their politics are distasteful” to “giving them power is dangerous.”
Funny, that has been my experience with regards to Republicans. I will never vote for another Republican ever again. To give them power is to empower the crazies and the morons and the not-so-veiled authoritarians and every whackaloon out there who thinks that power flows from the barrel of the Second Amendment.
Republicans have no agenda other than grievance and some fake nostalgia for a past that never was. The old joke still applies: the Republicans want to take us back to the 50's, they are just divided on whether it should be the 1950's, the 1850's, or the 1750's.
I mean, the only good thing I can say about Republicans is that they aren’t Democrats, and yet this persecution has bred a guaranteed R vote.
You know, if you really do hate Democrats that much, you don't have to vote for Republicans to vote against Democrats.
Yes they do, because those mouth-breathing idiots and petty crooks are the only ones who can stop you evil fucks.
Stopping your ilk is a civilization saving necessity.
Gee what a surprise, the mouthpiece for Team Red is exhorting people to vote for Team Red.
You’re a global Marxist with pedophillic dreams. You’re also a lying sea lion. This is why everyone hates you so much.
Lying Jeffy’s problem with republicans is that they don’t have big plans for the federal government.
So of course this means nobody's going to ever do business with Trump again,
since they can't count on him to be truthful and accuratebecause the attorney general's going to take every bit of business anybody does with him as crooked, and will confiscate all the profits.Why would they care if the AG takes Trump's profits?
Because if they ca do it to Trump, they can do it to anyone. This is the real problem. You democrats have to go.
...because STEALING with Gov-Guns is what leftards are all about.
The biggest fraud of them all.
Not the 2020 election?
I don't see how a preponderance of the evidence standard can possibly be applicable to a case involving disgorgement to the state without violating the Due Process clause.
Preponderance of evidence means that it is 50.1% likely that X happened - which also means that it is 49.9% likely that X did not happen. That's fine when you're trying to sort out a disagreement between A and B but not even close to appropriate when you're being sued by the state.
Regardless of what you think of Trump, I think very poorly of this judge. He's left open far too many easy avenues for appeal.
“He’s left open far too many easy avenues for appeal.”
I believe that was the point.
To whit, using novel applications of the law to go after one man is straight up banana republic/russian type bullshit. Everyone with half a brain can see this so they have to leave an out. Added bonus is they can complain about the SC when it eventually gets overturned.
(I don’t know how likely that is to happen, but it seems the most likely scenario.)
“Everyone with half a brain can see this”
So gov’na shrike checks in at what, 25% of a brain?
3.50%
You’re generous.
He knows, he can see it. He's shilling, he doesn't actually believe the garbage he's posting.
a poison pill with every award
i posted this upthread but it merits a repost in response to you.
@3:16 you get the punchline
A preponderance of the evidence means it is "at least" 50.1%, not exactly 50.1%. The likelihood that it did not happen could be "up to" 49.9%, but it could also be 0.5%. Anyway, that's the standard which applies in civil cases such as this.
The amount and type of "due process" required in a civil case is determined by the Constitution and the courts. What makes you think Trump did not get "all the process he was due" in this case?
All you've provided so far is your "feelz".
Why don’t you address what I’ve said in several comments here as to why this case is built on a false premise?
Still no response. I get it. You’re frightened of me.
"Over their vigorous objections, he accepted the numbers offered by a state witness, investment bank CEO Michiel McCarty, who compared the rate that Deutsche Bank charged the Trump Organization based on Trump's personal guarantee with the rate it proposed for a loan without that guarantee. By McCarty's calculation, the Trump Organization saved a total of about $168 million in interest on loans for four projects."
This is a complete farce. What were the loan balances? Is there any evidence the loans were materially under collateralized?
If that means that they compared what the interest was for the secured loans (meaning backed by his assets) compared to what the interest would have been for completely unsecured loans (nothing put up as collateral), this is total BS. Even if you agreed that Trump villainously overstated the worth of the assets put up as collateral, ruling damages based on what it would have been as an unsecured loan, which has higher (often much higher) interest rates, is essentially valuing the collateral as worth nothing.
If you bought into the whole "fraud" thing, you would still have to say that the assets were worth something, so it wouldn't have been a high-interest unsecured loan.
There are many other problems with this whole trial and the judgement, but I just wanted to focus on the secured vs unsecured loan aspect here.
I was thinking the same thing. He still had millions of dollars of collateral, and that's going to get you a much lower rate than an unsecured loan.
Which is why the bank said they would still have offered him the same rate, regardless. Because they knew he had collateral assets. If I recall, one of their conditions was that they wanted him to hang to a certain amount of liquid assets, because those would be easier to collect in case of a default. But none of this came up because Trump didn't default, and both sides made money.
And, whether or not the rates differed, what business is that of the State of NY? It's the bank's money, Trump's money, and their risk.
The actual juicy part is Engoron acknowledging that Deutsche Bank testified under oath that they, as a standard practice, take 50% off the valuation of properties. Which means that if the valuations are accurate, DB has just admitted in court to perpetrating a massive, organized fraud scheme with potentially billions in ill-gotten gains.
A fraud against whom?
No, it means they take what they are told "with a grain of salt", knowing people often lie about valuations--or that they truly believe their properties are worth more than they are. I'd be surprised if DB then turned around and used the customer valuations in their own financial disclosures (but, it is DB...)
If it's fraud for Trump to inflate the value of his properties in order to obtain lower interest rates, it must also be fraud for DB to deflate the value of others properties in order to obtain higher interest rates. DB admitted, under oath, to doing just that: they have a standard practice of removing half of a property's value. This means that anyone who provided an accurate valuation of their property received a higher interest rate than they should have, and hence were defrauded by DB.
Just for laughs though, anyone who provided estimates between 100% and 200% of their properties value was both defrauding DB and being defrauded by DB according to Engoron's decision.
Trump can’t inflate value. No borrower can. The bank controls the appraisal and the bank sets value for purposes of the final loan application signed at closing. Period. This case is idiotic.
I look forward to the successful NYC boycott from the truckers.
Restaurants with no food to serve in manhattan will be fun.
Not a chance in hell.
But fun to think about.
No chance for a complete boycott, but if enough do it, it could still increase the rate for delivering there, and have an impact on prices.
One of the truckers participating in the boycott mentioned that even a number as low as 10% might have an impact. NYC, unlike Chicago or LA, gets most of its goods delivered in via truck as there are no serious freight rail lines crossing the Hudson River there, and no massive rail yards anywhere on Manhattan Island or Long Island. By contrast, there are massive freight rail yards and intermodal yards within Chicago, and even not too far from the Loop.
Thanks for the summary.
Good to know that all the people bleating last week about "THERE WAS NO VICTIM" not only hadn't read the decision but hadn't read the law either.
Plus, all the people here who claim that the law is wrong because it violates the 7th and 8th Amendments. First, the Seventh Amendment has never been incorporated, so as a matter of constitutional law, it does not (yet) apply to the states. Second, the Eighth Amendment phrase "excessive fines" has an actual definition.
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment8/annotation02.html
So the fine does seem to bear some relationship to the activity that the court deemed to be illegal.
I do note, however, that the crowd which continually declares their support for "the rule of law", more often than not, hasn't read the law, and instead supports "the rule of the imaginary law that is in my head". We see that also with the immigration debate when so many on the border-restrictionist side can't help themselves but to call the migrants seeking asylum "illegal immigrants" even though it is expressly legal for migrants to apply for asylum.
I believe you are required to present yourself at a point of entry, not stumble over the border in any random location.
Lying Jeffy doesn’t care.
He also doesn’t care about what happens to women being trafficked by the cartels, or the people who own property along the border whose rights are being violated.
He only cares about the unaccompanied minors he may run into.
Oh look another pedo joke. Fuck off asshole.
It wasn't a joke.
Stop arguing for pederasts and covering for kiddie diddlers and castrationists and maybe people will stop pointing out the obvious.
Not a joke. There is nothing funny about what you want to do to, or allow to happen, to children. People like you should be put down.
Sadly for Jeffy, most of the "unaccompanied minors" crossing the border are much too old for him.
He also doesn’t care about what happens to women being trafficked by the cartels
No, that would be you who doesn't care. Imagine a woman who has a life situation so desperate that she is willing to solicit the services of very unsavory coyotes in order to have a chance at a better life here. What do you think that person's prospects are like if that person isn't permitted to come here? Do you know? Do you care? Do you give a damn? No, not a single bit. And even if your team is actually able to build a wall big enough to keep them all out, what do you think will happen to them? They will continue to have desperate suffering lives - but somewhere else.
That is what you really want - for all of those migrants to suffer and die, but out of your view.
or the people who own property along the border whose rights are being violated.
Now let's talk about all of the rights violations that occur with your border restrictionist policies. Such as making it illegal to hire someone who doesn't have the correct papers. Such as making 50 miles of the border a "liberty free zone" for purposes of nabbing those damn illegals. You know who is the bigger threat to the property rights of landowners near the border? The government, when they swoop in to not only confiscate the land for building a stupid wall, but also use the land for patrols. It's not right that land owners have their rights violated by anyone, but if you want to play "who cares more about rights", that would be me, and that would absolutely not be you. You don't give a shit about liberty except your own and those you care about. Everyone else can go to hell.
I lost track of how many lies you just posted. If you could please limit your responses to just one or two each so I could respond to each, that would be great, thanks.
Why do you lie so much?
When you call me a liar, it means I'm right. You only accuse me of lying as a slur and an insult, no different than if you had called me any other name. It's just another taunt. And what that has meant, is that it has devalued the word 'lie' when you use it. No one really knows if you are being serious or are just lashing out again. So fuck off asshole.
"When you call me a liar, it means I’m right."
No it doesn't, it means you're a lying fuck. The whole of the commentariat here doesn't call you 'Lying Jeffy' without reason.
No. You lie.
Whatever, troll. "You're a doodyhead!"
You’re a proven liar here. Hundreds of times over. Maybe over a thousand times by now.
So you don’t actually believe in national borders?
You certainly don't care about the truth.
Lie.
When have you criticized anyone on your team for anything false or misleading that they have said or done?
I am right. You do not care about the truth. You care about insulting the people you don't like by calling them liars even when they are not.
You’re almost never right about anything, and typically lie. You’re just a Marxist propagandist that thread shits. You should go somewhere lie WaPo, where you can be among your own kind.
Not true.
https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-and-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-in-the-united-states
Dude, you’ve already admitted multiple times that most of the asylum claims are bullshit and they’re just using it as an end run around the long wait times.
Don’t be so goddamn disingenuous.
Good to know that all the people bleating last week about “THERE WAS NO VICTIM” not only hadn’t read the decision but hadn’t read the law either.
I've read the damn law. And the law has never been executed in any case where there was no demonstrable victim. As I've pointed out below, the law is written with a circular definition of fraud, which is deeply problematic. The point of it wasn't to open up new avenues of punishing people who had caused no harm, but to give the AGs broader authority to investigate repeat offending businesses that were being exploitative even if there was no filed complaint.
Beyond that, since when would a "radical individualist," like yourself, be in favor of punishing crimes that caused no harm to anyone? Are you in favor of strict drug laws? The moral foundation of a legal system needs to be responding to instance of actual harm. This legalistic nonsense is offensive to all notions of liberty.
“Beyond that, since when would a “radical individualist,” like yourself”
When he calls himself a radical individualist, he’s lying. He’s the complete opposite.
Creamjeff authoritarian statist.
O.T. - People have asked me why I call him "Creamjeff". It's because of his high fat content.
I thought it had more to do with what happens when he watches videos that are linked by his best pal Pluggo.
Oh look ML the Nazi has shown up.
Pretty big accusation from a race-baiting, Jew-hating, authoritarian fuck like you. Numerous times I've shown you advocating for the policies and practices of the Third Reich, and that's why I call you a Nazi, fat evil fuck.
You haven't shown diddly squat. All you do is make outrageous accusations and do nothing to back it up with anything other than more assertions.
You, on the other hand, have absolutely advocated for throwing TV executives in jail for free speech, because it is speech that you don't like; and you have absolutely advocated for "mob justice" against schools which have transgender policies that you do not like. You're a fascist authoritarian and nothing would make you happier than sending anyone who disagrees with you to the ovens.
You must really think that if you repeat your lies often enough that they become true. They don’t. You’re a liar and everyone knows it.
You’re also filth, and have no right to exist.
He also wants to legalize pedophilia and child mutilation.
When you call yourself a libertarian, you're lying. You're just another Team Red asshole.
Just mailing it in and going full Pee Wee Herman now, Lying Jeffy?
Why don't you send in another Trump donation? He has legal bills to pay you know!
Why don't you go fifty-cent your ActBlue talking-points at Huffpo where they're more on your intellectual tier, shill.
I’ve never given a cent to Trump. But please carry on with this lie, liar.
Liar. You are no doubt on the automatic monthly donation plan to Trump's PAC.
Poor whiney little cunt Jeffy. So outraged at rightly being called out for his Marxism.
If I shoot a shitload of bullets at your feet, to make you dance, but I never hit you or your feet... Will you say "no harm, no foul"?
Trump has been shooting shitloads of bullets at a shitload of feet for a LONG time, and people HAVE been hurt!!!
See The Atlantic article
https://feedreader.com/observe/theatlantic.com/politics%252Farchive%252F2016%252F10%252Fdonald-trump-scandals%252F474726%252F%253Futm_source%253Dfeed/+view
“The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet”.
He poozy-snatch His creditors in 6 bankruptcies, His illegal sub-human workers ripped off of pay on His building projects, and His “students” in His fake Get-Rich-like-Me realty schools, and so on. So, He has a GREAT record of ripping others off! So SURELY He can rip off other nations, other ethnic groups, etc., in trade wars and border wars, for the benefit of ALL of us!!!
All Hail to THE Poozzy Grasper in Chief!!!
Very stupid comparison shiteater.
Consider the source.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Back on mute shitsy.
Yes, I bet a LOT of readers would LOVE it if you went mute! I bet that Your Ego is WAAAAAY too ginormous to do it, though!
I have zero desire to see what the little gray boxes say. I’m more interested in seeing SQRLSY put down. All rabid creatures should be.
And Sqrlsy raises the white flag of surrender:
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
Yeah, it always does that. It should be smothered.
As I’ve pointed out below, the law is written with a circular definition of fraud,
That is not how I read it. I read it as not defining fraud, but expanding on the existing definition of fraud. That is, fraud is defined as it is in the law, but for the purposes of this particular section, it also includes any "device, scheme or artifice" used to facilitate the fraud.
And "radical individualist" does not mean anarchist and it does not mean amoral asshole either.
I think libertarianism in general has a difficult time with concepts like negative externalities, or cases where there are many diffuse victims which each suffer only small amounts of perhaps negligible harm, As a matter of libertarian principle, the law should punish people who violate rights, even if the victims whose rights were violated didn't feel like they were. "No harm" does not necessarily mean "No rights violations".
No one gives a fuck ‘how you read it’. You’re thoroughly discredited here.
There was no case either you Fatfuck pedophile. You just hate Trump.
Punk Boogers is an Adolf-adoring Hitler-humper, and a Trump-humper ass well!!!
He knows.
He was using his favorite rhetorical trick, popularly called "lying".
Well, he has no facts, so that’s all he’s got.
I see a gray box appeared under my comment. I doubt it added anything of value. Likely just inane gibbering.
The bank set the value based on their own due diligence. Trump can’t set value. There is no case.
So basically he's saying the banks didn't make enough money and to fix that the state is going to keep all the money.
It defines "fraud" to include "any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions."
Always question the usage of a definition that includes the term it's defining within it. A fraud is using something to "defraud" someone. That's a circular definition, which seems to mean that for the sake of defining it, you still need to circle back to the legal definition of what fraud is.
While there is no precise numerical standard for materiality, Engoron says, "this Court confidently declares that any number that is at least 10% off could be deemed material, and any number that is at least 50% off would likely be deemed material. These numbers are probably conservative given that here, such deviations from truth represent hundreds of millions of dollars, and in the case of Mar-a-Lago, possibly a billion dollars or more."
"I'm just making this shit up as I go," says the judge. "And because I said this is the legal standard, therefore, this is the legal standard." This is all bullshit.
Who are you to question the judge?!
/s just in case it wasn’t clear.
Next you're gonna tell me that my definition of a woman as someone who identifies as a woman is tautological!
If he thinks there's a problem with the statute as written, Trump could certainly challenge that in court. Has he? Or is this an issue only you managed to spot?
By the way, it's clear you're not a lawyer. The law does not seek to define "fraud" at all. Its aim is not to prosecute ordinary fraud, but to target "repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or [which] otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business". To that end, it does not define fraud, but it does define the terms used only in the statute, e.g., "repeated fraudulent or illegal acts", "persistent fraud" and "illegality".
Need I remind you that a trial court judge never has the last word? The judge's statements and opinions are preserved in the record and are available for appellate review. Demonize the judge all you want (and you do seem to want to do that quite a lot!), but you will probably soon have to demonize the appellate judges and the supreme court justices as well.
But Trump's used to losing. You should be, too!
Exactly. Does anyone seriously believe that the law literally has a circular definition of fraud? If it did, it would have been challenged in court years ago, the state would have lost and the law would have been rewritten or scrapped.
Democrats are lawless Marxist thugs.
a trial court judge never has the last word
In most cases the trial court judge does have the last word on findings of fact.
It defines “fraud” to include “any . . . unconscionable contractual provisions.”
I’m looking forward to the Attorney General suing the banks, landlords and big tech to disgorge their illicit gains from unconscionable contract provisions.
Under New York law, Engoron says, that does not matter. But maybe it should.
Way to wrap a bow on all of this at the end, after basically accepting everything the judge had to say throughout the article.
Read a touch closer. It's a rather well written article. Even giving the judge every possible leniency, this still reads like an extremely thinly veiled condemnation. It states outright and repeatedly how no one was harmed. How the judge based his valuation on a third party over the objections of both the supposed villain and the supposed victim.
In other news, "Brutus is an honest man".
No one was harmed? All of us peons have to pay more for taxes and insurance because The Donald CHEATS!!!
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4473793-trumps-finances-take-massive-hit-legal-blows/#:~:text=Trump's%20net%20worth%20is%20famously,or%20cash%20and%20personal%20assets.
"A New York judge on Friday ordered Trump to pay nearly $355 million – plus interest – for falsely altering his net worth on key financial statements to receive tax and insurance benefits."
Special rules for Special People just got called on their bullshit!!! Too much is plenty enough!!!
That’s not how taxes OR insurance works.
Shillsy's not big on facts.
Did the gray box puke out something semi intelligible?
Yeah, it was just completely wrong headed. Because Trump has harmed everyone or something.
Hey DesigNated Shitter...
Punk Boogers says that it-shit is too... Wise? Stupid? Demented? Or something... To read my words of wisdom. Punk Boogers can't or won't read them, and begs others to do Punk Boogers's work for Punk Boogers! And it wants someone to kill me, but won't even get off shit's fat, worthless ass, to call the hitman!
Can YOU do Punk Boogers a favor, and help Punk Boogers reach shit's declared goal? Re-post the following under YOUR name, and maybe Punk Boogers will READ it (if shit can actually read), and FINALLY get off shit's fat, worthless ass, and call the hitman!
. . . . . . . .
Hey Punk Boogers! HERE is your “fix”! Try shit, you might LIKE shit!!!
https://rentahitman.com/ … If’n ye check ’em out & buy their service, ye will be… A Shitman hiring a hitman!!!
If’n ye won’t help your own pathetic self, even when given a WIDE OPEN invitation, then WHY should ANYONE pity you? Punk Boogers, if your welfare check is too small to cover the hitman… You shitman you… Then take out a GoFundMe page already!!!
I think you upset it. It appears to be spasticity puking out gibberish in more gray little boxes.
"That’s not how taxes OR insurance works."
Argument from authority? "Because I said so"? Or because when one person cheats on putting in their fair share, the money-work-and-productivity-fairies make up the difference? Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny, maybe? Or is shit the unicorn farts, or the Lizard People who do that for us?
So tell us how much more in taxes you had to pay.
The Lizard People pitched in and saved me from the resulting higher taxes and insurance, from Trump's 6 (SIX!!!) bankruptcies, butt they are telling me, NO MORE, now!!! They are TIRED of patching up the damages from grifters!!! ... I checked with the money-work-and-productivity-fairies, Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, AND the unicorns, and they are ALL tapped out now ass well!!! We are on our own now! Grifting HAS hurt us in the past, and it will now get WORSE!!!
Hahaha! You’re so fucking ignorant shillsy.
You're SOOOO Brilliant, Oh Wise One, for composing such DEEEEEP Thoughts!
(Does your Mommy help you write them?)
Why, do the nice young men in their clean white coats help you with your computer access, Sqrlsy?
It should be dissolved in a barrel of acid.
Maybe the law should be changed, is what he means.
Why are you hiding from me?
Informative article, but this thing is still a very thinly vailed targeted, political prosecution. Every NYer knew Trump was a boastful, narcissistic exaggerator. Engeron has apparently made that a punishable offense. I always thought that Trump never wanted to reveal his tax returns, not because he was embarrassed about how little he paid, rather he was embarrassed about how much he was really worth. Companies offering assets as collateral, always exaggerate their worth, banks accepting assets as collateral always undervalue them. Both entities will meet at some point and decide to do the deal or not, we don’t need high minded liberal AG’s or judges inserting themselves in that process. If the NY AG wants to protect its citizens against fraud, I can point out plenty that occurred during the 2008 crash perpetrated by large financial institutions that actually cost citizens money. Shall we get started?
"I can point out plenty that occurred during the 2008 crash perpetrated by large financial institutions that..." ...were caused by grifters like The Donald. ... There, I fixed it for you!
See The Atlantic article
https://feedreader.com/observe/theatlantic.com/politics%252Farchive%252F2016%252F10%252Fdonald-trump-scandals%252F474726%252F%253Futm_source%253Dfeed/+view
“The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet”.
He poozy-snatch His creditors in 6 bankruptcies, His illegal sub-human workers ripped off of pay on His building projects, and His “students” in His fake Get-Rich-like-Me realty schools, and so on. So, He has a GREAT record of ripping others off! So SURELY He can rip off other nations, other ethnic groups, etc., in trade wars and border wars, for the benefit of ALL of us!!!
All Hail to THE Poozzy Grasper in Chief!!!
Well, you seem to have a well balanced, objective opinion about Trump, so I’ll assume you are considering voting for him in November.
I'll "throw away my vote" (according to some folks) and vote Libertarian, as usual...
Yes, of course this law was only passed with the goal of "getting Trump"...
Judge Engeron has not made anything a "punishable offense". Not even the Attorney General has done that! The New York State legislature did it in ca. 1956.
Trump is a pathological liar, so unless we want our laws to be made safe for pathological liars, we have to accept the terrible injustice of a popular pathological liar occasionally being caught by the law.
Thanks ObviouslyNotSpam!!!
One of the relatively few snippets of sanity in this thread of comments and endless Trump-humping...
"Trump is a pathological liar,..."
Cite missing, TDS-addled shit-pile.
You’re confused. YOU are a pathological liar.
"Because the Trump Organization is a private company, not a publicly traded company," he says, "there is very little that underwriters can do to learn about the financial condition of the company other than to rely on the financial statements that the client provides to them."
Guess what, judge? Banks will normally scrutinize even more closely the statements submitted by a private organization than those fully certified subject to FEC reporting public corporations. If they really were concerned, then demand to see the "30,000 sq. ft triplex", or tour Mar a lago with a local independent appraiser. This case is a crock of bullshit
(spoken by someone with a career in finance and not a supporter of Trump.)
Yeah but gov’na shrike pretends to know what he’s talking about and he disagrees. (Btw no one that knows even a little bit about this topic believes him)
He just hates Trump. Everything else is just nonsense words.
FEC...lol.
Thanks to Engoron's egregious and unconstitutional ruling against Trump, Fani Willis' train wreck, Hur's declaration of Biden's incompetence, and Biden's demonstration of his incompetence (and more outrageous lies) during his press conference, Donald Trump is almost certain to increase his lead over Biden by another five or ten percentage points.
Looks increasing likely that voters will Make America Great Again in a November landslide. What a great country.
Way too soon to call that.
I know, right? There is still time to JFK Trump if it gets closer to election day and he's way up in the polls. Then everyone who was going to vote Trump can happily vote for Nikki Haley. (this is how I imagine the "deep state" thinks about the situation)
Don't you mean "another November landslide"?
I realize I've said this before, but if you're so right, and the judge is so wrong, this "egregious and unconstitutional ruling against Trump" will be shot down on appeal.
And if it is not, you will simply declare that the appeals courts (and the supreme courts) (and the entire justice system and every lawyer who has taken an oath to support it) are engaged in a vast leftwing conspiracy to "get Trump".
That, too, will keep the donations flowing in (which is all that Trump cares about, by the way). So give early, and give often, Trump needs you now more than ever!
"...And if it is not, you will simply declare that the appeals courts (and the supreme courts) (and the entire justice system and every lawyer who has taken an oath to support it) are engaged in a vast leftwing conspiracy to “get Trump”..."
There's a very good reason for that, shitstain.
It’s time to get rid of the democrats.
Looks increasing likely that voters will Make America Great Again in a November landslide.
Who's going to be counting the votes?
-jcr
That's the real issue. The supposed victims, the banks, claimed that they would have given the same interest rate with or without the change in appraisal, since they did their own. The government brought in their own witness who contradicted the people who would have been the ones to decide the difference in interest rates.
Every person involved is saying that this didn't matter, but the judge and prosecution is claiming that it did anyway.
It would be absurd if it was fictional.
'It aims not to compensate people who were allegedly harmed by Trump's misrepresentations but to deter dishonesty that threatens "the financial marketplace."'
You know who else threatens the financial marketplace?
And in case you are struggling to think of someone, use this checklist:
'It defines "fraud" to include "any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions."'
Taylor Swift?
The statute does not define "fraud" in that way, as I have explained above. It only seeks to define "repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or [which] otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business".
If you think the law is unconstitutional or unnecessary, feel free to lead the charge to have it changed or repealed. You'd be in "good company". Your dear anti-corruption champion, Donald Trump, infamously railed against the "ridiculous" and "horrible" Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, but sadly was unable to get that law "scrapped" by executive fiat during his Presidency. Perhaps he can do something similar against this New York law?
How long have you had this raging case of TDS? Can we somehow assist in making it fatal so your bullshit will no longer show up here, steaming pile of shit?
Illegal immigrants are illegal and the law is the law. The law needs to be enforced against all illegals or there will be chaos.
Trump is innocent and the law is corrupt. The law should not be enforced against him or we'll make sure there's chaos.
That's what passes for principles around here.
Holding that all laws are just and valid is absolutely not a libertarian principle.
Deciding whether a law is just or not based on who the victims are, isn't a libertarian principle either.
No, it's not, but you wouldn't know a principle if it sucked your micropenis.
He couldn’t find within his voluminous folds of fat anyway.
What do you base your principles on?
Mad dog 20/20 and MSNBC.
Nice.
You have no principles. You continue to argue FOR theft of taxpayers to be transferred to those that are not citizens. Youre no better than Schumer yelling for 90B to be sent to Ukrainians.
Let’s not forget sarc initially supported funding Ukraine to fight Putin Man Bad.
Your comment is an example of your stupidity, exacerbated by your drunken hatred of Trump.
There's no constitutional crisis over laws concerning immigration. The mechanism is pretty much spelled out.
NY's law make criminals out of people who didn't meaningfully commit fraud. How many illegals lied on their application to get jobs, benefits, loans, etc? Unlike banks that loaned to Trump, the government actually believed these people when they paid them.
But tell you what - I'll trade Trump paying 400 mil for deporting every single illegal immigrant and prosecuting every aspect of wealthy democrats that wrongly inflated their properties. It will destroy states like New York, but I'll take it. Sound fair? The law is the law, as you say.
Man. Waited later in the day today to go full retard. Mostly because you avoided posting.
Doesn't matter how many times you're told it is the costs that are the issue, the negative externalities, accounting for tens of billions a year, taken from citizens... you persist with ignorance.
Good work buddy.
State abuse against a political enemy instead of a standard global interpretation of immigration law. Totally the same. Stay ignorant my friend.
That may be record for him going from zero to full retard.
It’s sad you think this makes a point.
Btw, tell us more about your gay friend that got in trouble for molesting kids.
You seem to be talking about criminal law. That's not the case here.
Let's be honest about what's going on here. This is not a civil trial where someone was harmed and sued. The harm party receives a settlement.
This is where the government is suing and receiving the money. It's nothing but a shakedown for non-criminal behavior the state doesn't like. The law that allows this type of lawsuit should be struck down. The shakedown isn't going to stop with Trump either. Pepsico is next.
No one's under any illusion that a bunch of leftwing activists won't sue the landlords they DETEST with a passion for the crime of "inflating" their property value. New York is screwed big time.
If I sell a used bike for 100 dollars more than it's worth, and the buyer agrees to buy it despite knowing its true worth, I've committed a crime? I should be prosecuted?
The anti-fraud crusade taken judge Ergoron may land thousands of Americans in jail or bankrupt them. This should be heard by the SC and I don't to want to hear one word from the left about how they care about criminal justice reform.
Nope. This was a one-off farce specifically directed at Trump. The law was never used this way before and never will be again.
They'll use it against Musk if he doesn't clamp Twitter down again.
-jcr
I like how you are so confident it will never be used again. Funny. You have proof right? We are just supposed to take your work for it?
Not just left-wing activists.
giant retail chains would sue the landlords.
Does Executive Law 63 (12) create a private right of action?
Does it authorize judges to launch "crusades", one might also (just as reasonably) ask?
That’s what happened with this case. Letitia Jame literally campaigned on that.
She’s a prosecutor, not a judge. And she did well to promise that if elected, she’d go after lawbreaking made clear by Michael Cohen’s testimony. She made good on that promise.
Funny, she didn’t actually go after any ‘lawbreaking’. She just made up a bogus case to go after Trump for no crime and no tort.
He violated Executive Law 63 (12)
The value of any good or service is whatever someone's willing to pay for it. If your buyer gives you a hundred more than some other prospective customer is willing to cough up, the bike is worth what he pays for it.
-jcr
Today's Trump and Biden articles from my local daily:
Trump:
Biden:
Poll ranks Biden as 14th-best president,
Lefturd push-poll, I presume.
The only president worse than Biden I can think of would be Woodrow the Fascist, who imprisoned my grandfather for protesting the war that Woodrow lied us into.
When it comes to competence, Biden is dead last, having taken the title from Jimmy Carter.
I’m sure Jimmy is grateful that Biden’s Afghanistan bug-out disaster finally overshadowed Jimmy’s dismal failure to squash the Iranian Goatfucker Regime like the cockroaches they are after they made war on the United States by invading the embassy in Tehran.
-jcr
Haha 14th best president that everyone hates and doesn't want to run again.
They are really working overtime
does not require proof that anyone was injured by his financial dishonesty.
What "financial dishonesty"? Trump said "I think my assets are worth this much. You should do your own estimates." That's all.
Nobody has shown that Trump was "dishonest" about any objectively verifiable facts.
Look, we have to first: disapprove of Trump, acknowledge his mean tweets, then shruggingly admit the ruling was questionable.
Trump is a mixed bag to be sure, but he did significantly roll back regulations with his policy of removing two rules for every new one enacted.
If he wins this election, I will lament his bad moves, enjoy his good ones, and above all I will delight in the tears of the lefturds.
-jcr
What's the ratio of his net worth to his bank balance ?
The balance in question is 1/0 since he paid off the balance. But you already knew this shill.
This decision means that appeals will continue to be working their way through various courts until the election, and Democrats will be lambasting Trump in the media until then. I expect that that’s the plan.
"90 DIFFERENT CHARGES!!! A JUDGE FOUND HIM gUiLtY!!!"
Fortunately their clever plan seems to be having the opposite effect with independents and working class Democrats.
On the decline and fall of NYC topic (this is not parody, this is really happening):
https://nypost.com/2024/02/19/opinion/inside-mayor-adams-migrant-debit-card-boondoggle-no-bid-bank-gets-50-million-border-crossers-up-to-10000-each/
Pretty wild race grift mafia stuff here. Doubt one single migrant sees cash. Violence will break out to get to this cash.
DocGo, the city’s no-bid “emergency” contractor to provide migrants with three meals a day, throws away up to 5,000 meals daily, wasting $7.2 million a year. Some food is inedible — expired or rotten — and other food doesn’t meet migrants’ dietary needs. Providing mass-scale meals competently and with options for specific needs — halal, kosher, vegan, non-gluten — isn’t that hard: The school system does it, airlines do it, hospitals and jails do it.
Schools and airlines serve paying customers/taxpayers.
For people who don't pay, it's actually very easy: you serve a bland, vegetarian stew made mostly from dried goods and vegetable protein every day. It meets everybody's dietary needs. And it's actually healthier than the airline/school food.
What could possibly go wrong?
Yeah, apparently I still don’t get to post links on the first go…
—
Hey, Mother's Lament, can you provide your amazing quote about fascism versus socialism again, or go drop it here: https://www.eugyppius.com/p/authoritarian-politics-in-postwar
It was a speech often given by Goebbels and Hitler on why they are socialists. It's here: https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/haken32.htm
Of course, the most obvious proof that the Nazis were socialists is their complete disregard for property. They started out looting Jews, but eventually looted anyone on a whim.
-jcr
There is a simple solution to this. On appeal, the Supreme Court should rule the New York state law under which Trump et al. were charged unconstitutionally broad and vague and strike it down. Then every person who has been harmed by unconstitutionally broad and vague state and Federal laws should appeal to the Supreme Court to have THOSE laws struck down too. I am not impressed by the argument that the state cannot protect us from bad guys without the necessary tools when almost anyone in America who comes to their attention is at risk for outrageous penalties and punishments - people that I don't need or want protection from! The government is at best incompetent at enforcing the few laws that are justified by the constitution that don't require a hundred pages to encode and a crystal ball to decipher.
The constitution forbids excessive fines, and $340 million when no harm was done to anyone is clearly excessive.
-jcr
Extremely large civil fines are often reduced on appeal.
First, I personally dislike Donald Trump and have never and will never vote for him, however...
This entire case brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James and ruled on by New York County Supreme Court Justice Engoron is noting more than a partisan personalized attack on Donald Trump.
The lending institution as part of their process evaluates assets prior to giving the loan. In this situation Trump did what every other developer do when seeking a loan. They present their assets in the most favorable light that they can because the loaning institution will automatically deflate the value.
It is no secret that Trump has a brash and boisterous personality. If I was a decision maker with the lending institution, I would consider this, but I would also consider the likelihood that the loan would be re-payed.
As laughable as Trumps claims of the value of Mar-a-lago are, the claims of the value by New York County Supreme Court Justice Engoron are colossally more laughable.
If I were a developer or business owner in New York, I would seriously consider an exit strategy. The reassurances that New York Governor Kathy Hochul saying that there is “nothing to worry about” implies that either this is a partisan attack.
I would not trust the government of New York especially if you hold political positions to the right of the extreme far-left. Much safer to move the lions-share of your operations outside the State and City of New York.
New York County Supreme Court Justice Engoron and Attorney General Letitia James are both partisan hacks. Democrats are protecting Democracy by destroying it.
It's funny how all these "never Trumpers" coming out of the woodwork still refuse to acknowledge that Trump is clearly a serial liar (among other things), and that his claims and statements are not simply "boasting" and "exaggeration", but conscious, calculated lies designed to deceive people.
If New York State wants to have a law in the books which targets people like Trump, then people like Trump would have every incentive to flee the state. Perhaps that predictable consequence is, therefore, bad policy? If so, it is up to the voters of New York State to decide, not the courts, not the Attorney General, and not "never Trumpers" like you.
Not funny how the flock of TDS-addled sheep ignore the fact that Trump has yet to be convicted of anything of which they accuse him.
But, wha, wha, mean tweets.
Fuck you with a running, rusty chain saw, asshole.
You might have a point, if every developer under the sun didn’t over value their portfolio.
That isn’t fraud, no matter how often you sheep bleat it is.
Lender set value, not borrowers. It’s impossible commit to fraud in this manner.
Democrats are protecting Democracy by destroying it.
Mao-style democracy is a valid form of democracy.
That's what Democrats are creating. Complete with "the people", "enemies of the people", and totalitarian control of the people.
If I were a developer or business owner in New York, I would seriously consider an exit strategy.
Yep. New York is no safer for business than China if this judgement stands.
-jcr
Here's the gov trying to smooth it over.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4474774-hochul-tells-ny-businesses-not-to-fear-about-trump-verdict-nothing-to-worry-about/
Here's an example of how she is wrong.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/11/15/heres-why-ny-is-suing-pepsico-over-plastic-pollution-concerns/?sh=7ca7eb6a64a7
^ this
I would throw CA in there also as not to do business in.
You don't have to like Trump to see that this case was bullshit from day one. A judge who hates Trump pulled a number out of his ass and demanded that Trump pay it. There are no victims of Trump's alleged misdeeds, the loans were paid in full on schedule, and the lenders did their own due diligence to determine the value of the collateral.
Engoron should be bounced off the bench and disbarred, and so should everyone else involved in perpetrating this witch-hunt.
-jcr
""Engoron had previously ruled that disgorgement of profits is one of the remedies allowed by Section 63(12) in this case. ""
What profit did Trump make on that loan?
The bank made the profit from the interest using Trump's assessments. Seems the bank made ill gotten gains from Trump's exaggerations.
The judge claims that Trump received ill-gotten gains because the bank did not charge him as much interest as the judge thinks they should have.
Did the bank feel that it was cheated?
No.
Banks don’t use borrower assessments.
Have you bought your $ 75 a month black metal mugshot card and $399 Golden Felony shoes yet?
You’re not good at this.
"It defines "fraud" to include "any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions."
So we can use this standard against other politicians now? Right?
Of course not ... Other politicians are (D)ifferent. /s
Could help copy that one. 🙂
No "proof" is needed. EVERYONE is hurt when someone cheats financial systems and taxes, esp to the degree of Trump.
Are you saying it's ok then not to pay taxes unless the prosecution proves someone was hurt?
"Hurt" is defacto TRUE.
What are you gibbering about?
The real crime is charging interest on lent money that has been created from nothing out of thin air.
"...preponderance of the evidence..." was not used. Preponderance of Presumption was. Summary Judgement against the defendant happened BEFORE any "evidence" was submitted in trial. That alone is grounds for appeal and should be immediately granted.
Good, screw Trump. Now, on to Federal Government fraud. Let's start with COVID, then on to the Border and Climate Change. Fraud, Fraud, Fraud. The little judge who was no doubt stuffed into a locker regularly in school, can award MASSIVE damages to NYC for lies from the Government = Fraud.
Every real estate owner in NYC should be similarly punished. What could possibly go wrong?
Not a Trump fan, but I can't get behind a civil case where there is no injured party. Had he exaggerated his assets and secured a loan based on that and failed to pay it back, well then yes he should be sued for that and punished. But with no injured party I don't believe this was right.
You can’t obtain a loan that way. Lenders set collateral value, not borrowers.
"Justice Arthur Engoron ordered Donald Trump to pay a staggering $355 million for repeatedly inflating asset values in statements of financial condition submitted to lenders and insurers."
Let's not use the extremely biased language of the left, please. The statement above assumes the valuations of Trump properties by the lenders and/or the judge are the 'correct' valuations. I assure you this is NOT the case.
First of all, the valuations by the judge, who is completely incompetent to render an opinion have been almost universally panned by those in the real estate industry.
Second, bank and lender valuations are renowned for being lowball figures for the same reasons borrowers' valuations tend to be on the high side. All these valuations are simply educated guesses. So, the interests of the parties tend to bias the valuations in these opposing directions. As a borrower, your interests are best served by showing the value of the properties you own. As a bank or lender, your interests are to ensure that there is enough collateral that if the borrower can't perform you still get paid. So, professionals who assess property values will always pick a lower number if representing a bank or other lender, and a higher number when representing a borrower.
This is how the entire real estate industry operates.
To be clear, there is only one party in this 'trial' that has been shown to be thoroughly corrupt--and that party is the state of New York.
"Explaining the need for continued independent supervision of the Trump Organization, Engoron emphasizes Trump et al.'s "refusal to admit error."
Did the Judge want Trump to admit guilt during the course of the trial? Why does this remind me of the Spanish Inquisition?
Once again, so-called "libertarians" at Reason see no reason why the government shouldn't have the power to destroy any business it feels like destroying for any reason or no reason at all.
I would think a true libertarian would say that if businesses want to contract with each other, they can do it without state involvement. But if the businesses want a state-granted liability shield, they have to follow the state’s rules.