Dispatch From Israel: The Symphony at Sderot
Listening to the sounds of war at the site of the October 7 Hamas attack.

"I can't believe we are going to the place where the most horrible thing happened, and it's an hour from here," says Yael.
"When it started, we were like, 'Holy shit!'" says Avi. "Then we got used to it."
Avi continues driving south, Tel Aviv to Sderot, a place most people became aware of on October 7. The videos of white pickup trucks arriving on a Saturday morning were unremarkable but for the men in the back with assault rifles. We would learn some also carried cameras, in order to memorialize what they had come to do. As one headline later read, "Everyone died."
"This is where the police station was," says Avi of a dirt lot punctuated by an air conditioner–size shaft. Otherwise, there is no sign of recent habitation, no commemoration of the hours-long firefight up stairwells and on the roof. Seven officers from the station and an untold number of Hamas militants were dead by the time the Israeli military gave the order: Hit the station with tank fire.
"There was one terrorist left in the building," Avi says. "Israeli forces demolished it, with him inside."

"We tend to raze things," says Yael, as she and Avi move up what was once a busy commercial strip. Every wall here is pocked with bullet holes, broken window glass has not been replaced, and what appears to have been a residence is missing its face, exposing a toppled-over sink and a pile of clothes. The only two other people on the street make assurances that the blood from the 50 civilians killed here on October 7 has all been washed away. Still, the town feels ghosty, abandoned. Life and death are frozen here, if not a mile away in Gaza.
"They're from Israeli cannons," says Avi of the booms that make people stop and look up, or what people there are: Ninety percent of Sderot's 40,000 residents fled after the massacre, and fewer than 15,000 have returned.
"All seven of the dead cops used to eat here," says the owner of a shawarma cafe, the only shop in the vicinity that's open. "Every day we hear about another customer who is dead."
"We were home watching the TV when it happened," says his wife, who heard the gunshots and screams on October 7 but refused to believe it was happening.
"I closed the window," she says. Her husband opened it, and they did this several times until they left Sderot that day, coming back only after three months.
"It's the first and last time I'm ever leaving. I won't let Hamas win," says her husband, adding that the owner of the sporting goods store next door went out for a jog on the morning of October 7 and was murdered.
Avi gets back on the road, the same road where hundreds of young people ran for their lives and abandoned their cars and were slaughtered on the spot or marched at gunpoint into the white pickup trucks.
"We were sleeping, a deep, deep, deep sleep," he says of what is self-evident: that Israel was unready for the assault; it had become complacent, even hubristic, trusting too much in its intelligence and the Iron Dome.
"How many people hid here in the trees and played dead?" Yael asks as they pass fields thick with banana, lemon, and avocado trees. There is normal traffic today, no sign of carnage.
"Unbelievable," Avi says under his breath, seeing army trucks guarding a newly secured area, which would never have been the case before October 7. The Nova festival was a rave in an avocado grove, for God's sake. Scanning for something to be happy about, Yael points to some tiny red flowers poking up through the mud.
These will turn out to be the only happy things for the next hour, or however long it is people stay at the memorial of 364 dead young people, who have no choice but to stay here, to be remembered at or near where they were shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, burned. It's tempting to say this is the worst thing, and it is the worst thing. But there are other worst things, including, one imagines, being asked to supply a photo of your dead daughter, to represent everything you know and love about her. This photo will be affixed to a post and sunk into the dirt. It will be decorated by you, perhaps by others, with the usual totems: flowers, candles, aphorisms. You may seek to make it personal, as you can see others have done for their murdered loved ones, with a scrunchie, a keyboard, a karate medal. But the question is, how do you pick the photo? Is it the one of her at age 5, hands held into anticipatory fists as she stands over a plate of cookies? Is it the high school graduation? Is it the most recent one, onstage accepting an award, her hair shining like a mirror and the lifetime she'd put into deserving that award making her glow? And if you can decide, how do you leave her in that field alone? How do you not curl yourself around the pole every night and say, "Just leave me here. I'll stay here."
Avi and Yael steel themselves for the next stop, a place, if not worse, then differently bad: the kibbutz where Hamas and others from Gaza breached a fence on October 7, killing 63 people and kidnapping 18 others.
"You have 10 seconds to find shelter should we hear an alarm, to either run to a safe room or lie on the ground with your hands over your head," says Ron, the young female IDF officer giving a tour of kibbutz Kfar Aza, now emptied of its 950 inhabitants. Grapefruits the size of soccer balls rot on the ground, children's bikes lie abandoned in play yards featuring miniature camel figurines, and yellow tape surrounds the worst of the October 7 kill sites, some marked with colored symbols: blue means a bomb squad has cleared the house, a number in red indicates how many bodies were found inside. Ron assures visitors that "any body parts are gone and even the birds have come back."
A bougainvillea grows outside the home of a newlywed couple who were burned alive in their safe room. The cycle of nature growing over, of healing and forgetting, seems both hopeful and obscene.

The air smells of burnt wood and something else: gunpowder.
A sign reads, "Human remains on couch." At Kfar Aza pic.twitter.com/LsRenwj07c
— Nancy Rommelmann (@NancyRomm) January 28, 2024
Avi approaches the fence where the terrorists poured through and where, according to Ron, they poured back out with what loot they could: flat-screens and cellphones and shoes taken off the women they had just murdered.

"We knew everything about everything, but we didn't know about that," Avi says, meaning the military planning Hamas was capable of, as well as how much they were willing to risk in order to slaughter their neighbors, risks that, more than three months later, reverberate every few minutes with the bombing of Gaza by the Israeli forces creating what Avi calls "the symphony of war."
Walking back to the car, he and Yael hear another note of the symphony, the muffled "pop" of the Iron Dome intercepting a rocket coming in from Gaza. Yael looks at the streaks it makes in the sky, thinks to comment, and then, does not.
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Stay safe, Nancy. You always do great work.
Amen.
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She really does. Her reporting during the BLM protests was some of the best I've ever seen.
Still one of my favorite occurrences at Reason was reading ENB shovel the mainstream bullshit narratives every morning in the roundup just to have it completely destroyed later by Nancy’s on the ground reporting.
+
Kindest thoughts to Nancy and to all the dead and their survivors in Israel.
Never forget that "symphony" and while also listening to better things, never let anyone shut down any of it and never let anyone lull you to forget!
"the Nova festival was a rave in an avocado grove, for God's sake. Scanning for something to be happy about, Yael points to some tiny red flowers poking up through the mud.
These will turn out to be the only happy things for the next hour, or however long it is people stay at the memorial of 364 dead young people, who have no choice but to stay here, to be remembered at or near where they were shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, burned."
Misek and mtrueman clap their hands with glee.
Was about to ask which antisemitic poster we see first. My guess is JFree.
Shellenberger out with yet another story. In 2016 the IC knew Putin preferred Hillary. So they helped create the narrative of Trump Russia.
Herr sarc and Herr jeff will be here shortly to deny it.
For some reason this site eats the Twitter account of Shellenberger.
Michael Shellenberger
@shellenberger
The U.S. government said in January 2017 that Russia favored Trump as president. But now, sources reveal for the first time that the CIA "cooked the intelligence" to hide that Vladamir Putin wanted Hillary Clinton, not Donald Trump, as president.
Posting the thread as reason doesn't allow the link.
===
It was all a lie.
The Trump-Russia scandal made its formal launch on January 6th, 2017, when the office of the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper published what’s called an “Intelligence Community Assessment,” or “ICA,” as it’s universally known in Washington.
Release of the ICA dominated headlines, fixed Donald Trump in the minds of millions of Americans as a Manchurian candidate controlled by Vladamir Putin, and upended his in-coming administration.
The report declared that Russia and Putin interfered in the 2016 presidential election to “denigrate” Hillary Clinton and “harm her electability,” thanks to their “clear preference for President-elect [Donald] Trump.”
It was powerful stuff. And it was dead wrong.
“They cooked the intelligence,” says a source close to a House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) investigation into the origins of the Trump-Russia scandal, whose full findings are being blocked from release. “They made it look like Putin supported Trump,” the source added. “The evidence points the other way.”
Former CIA Director John Brennan and the ICA authors “embellished” their conclusion by upgrading unreliable sources to reliable, the source said. “They upgraded in the writing of their report to let those sources have more credibility and a higher rating. We caught them on 3-4 items where those people didn’t have a credible historic reporting line and changed the source rating for that Brennan report.”
Dissent, even within Brennan’s group of 24 “hand-picked” analysts — not from 17 agencies but just four, and really just three, when one considers the ODNI is just a coordinating agency — was overruled.
The House investigators, who worked out of a “small room in Langley” and had broad access to classified documentation and witnesses from the CIA and other agencies, found U.S. intelligence analysts had “a lot of stuff about the Russians calling Trump ‘mercurial,’ ‘unreliable,’ and ‘not steady.’”
On the other hand, Russians apparently saw Hillary as “manageable and reflecting continuity. It was a relationship they were comfortable with….there was no real evidence that Russia supported Trump. They were trying to make this bizarre case.”
The effort to manufacture the Intelligence Community claim that Russians had a “clear preference” for Trump was led by CIA Director Brennan, whom sources also implicate in an unprecedented effort to place more than two dozen Trump aides and associates under surveillance prior to the election.
“We looked at the report and the sourcing they used to evaluate the sourcing, and then we dug further to look at the data available to them that they didn’t use, and it overwhelmingly contradicted their conclusions that Russia supported Trump....”
McCain was in there like a dirty shirt too.
How many people say out loud "I wish my government would lie to me, so I can live a sheltered life according to the narratives they want me to believe"?
Right below us Earth-based, calling people "liars" for remembering things he posted.
Posting the thread as reason doesn’t allow the link.
You stopped posting links because they expose your lies, and now you blame it on Reason. Classy as school at five in the morning.
Without any personal jibes.
You're as bad as Jesse.
That comment was directed at ICP about inflation. He can have civil conversations from time to time.
Jesse on the other hand is a mendacious piece of shit who couldn't tell the truth or be civil with a gun pointed at his head.
More dehumanization from Hitler admirer sarc.
Amazing how angry you and Jeff have become seeing all your beliefs falls apart around you. All your biases exposed. Lol.
Keep making stuff up and arguing against it.
See this is why I save an library of crazy sarcasmic quotes. Because if we don't he starts lying about them when he sobers up.
He’ll be along to complain about that too. He’s comical.
Thanks. I'll bookmark this too, showing your hypocrisy in your own words.
Goody. When you bring it up I'll use it as an example of your dearth of reading comprehension ability.
Ad hominem to the rescue!
That was dumb. An ad hominem would be to dismiss what he says based upon him. You know, what you guys call logic.
I'm saying that if he wants to post that as an example of my hypocrisy, that I'll use it as an example of his lack of reading comprehension.
You say the word logic in your pathetic attempts at attacks. Do you feel this is working for you?
You keep using words you don't actually understand. May I suggest a remedial English course?
Do you find it funny that everyone not in your tribe has noted your blatant hypocrisy buy youre so delusional you pretend you arent?
Do you find it funny that everyone not in your tribe has noted your blatant hypocrisy buy youre so delusional you pretend you arent?
Sure buddy. That's based upon two faulty premises. First is that I'm in a tribe, second is the assumption that everyone not in your tribe in in the same tribe.
If your logic class teachers hadn't failed you to badly, you'd know that an argument based upon faulty premises if a fallacy.
Lol. Youre having a wonderful morning aren't you. Doing so very well flailing.
This is why I can't mute you. Can't stand to miss the comedy.
Also, hypocritical does not mean wrong. Had your logic teachers not failed you, you'd understand that saying someone's wrong because you claim they are hypocritical is an ad hominem attack, also known as a logical fallacy.
Hey the logic word again! Who are you signaling with this?
You’re by far the biggest hypocrite here.
Man. Full retard by noon yet again. Good work buddy.
On a scale of 1 to 10, how well did you think you did posting this week?
Sarc and Jeff: +gazillian
Everybody else: -gazillian
Hey man. Thats a lie. Sqrsly and shrike are on his team too.
While you're getting money back from the terrible logic classes you took, get a refund from whomever taught you html. When you're done google "anchor tag".
Lol.
You went to a website to ask for basic html tags. Youre a level 2 IT helps desk.
God damn buddy.
Your projection is revealing.
Another term you dont actually understand.
He hears about ideas but doesn’t understand them.
“says a source close to a House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence”
This gives me pause, even if it’s telling me something I already assumed.
"Putin wanted Hillary Clinton"
I was saying that here in 2016.
Yet Vlad actively intervened on behalf of Donnie - meeting with the Trump campaign and hacking DNC servers for him.
Sure he did.
BTW, the WaPo and NYT are not hiring out of the Reason comment pool.
Even when the lies and narratives are exposed, the true believers persist.
"Yet Vlad actively intervened on behalf of Donnie – meeting with the Trump campaign"
Yesterday you lied and claimed that Natalia Veselnitskaya was (your words) a "Kremlin official".
Today you claim that Putin "actively intervened" without saying when or how or what that even means.
So come on, shill. Spit it out. How did Putin "actively intervene" on Trump's behalf?
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Joe Biden uses Navalny’s death to call for Congress to pass the Senate’s $95.3 Billion foreign aid bill.
From the comments: I didn’t think the CIA took out Nalvalny until just now.
It is just odd because just a few months ago a journalist died in Ukraine. And media doesn't care. This includes Reason. If the principle is a state jailing a journalist until death, these are equal stories.
Pass the bill or we will keep assassinating dissident leaders!
Slava Ukrani and this chump have no connection.
The making of a martyr: Navalny becomes Khashoggi 2.0.
https://www.dossier.today/p/the-making-of-a-martyr-navalny-becomes
I post this not to defend Putin only to point out the endless barrage of neocon propaganda that the media breathlessly regurgitates. If Navalny was an "opposition leader" doesn't seem like there's much opposition in Russia. His approval rating is 9% disapproval 57% and 23% of Russians have never heard of him. But he's a useful tool for the war party desperate to get more Ukrainians slaughtered. And this just 2 days after Mike Turner (R-Ohio) came back from a meeting with Zelenskyy warning the nation about SPACE NUKES.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/stocks-slide-session-lows-after-chatter-over-urgent-matter-destabilizing-foreign
Meanwhile, the push to imprison an opposition leader in the US continues.
MoDowd knows Donnie and Vlad:
Trump doesn’t seem to subscribe to any of the verities about this country. He doesn’t believe America is exceptional. He only believes that Trump is exceptional — an exception to all the rules that the rest of us live by.
.
If American laws get in his way — like counting votes to choose a president — he tries to smash them. He’s bigger than democracy, after all.
.
If American values get in his way — like our distaste for authoritarians like Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban — he mocks those values. When Putin and Orban flattered Trump, that seemed more important to the Mar-a-Lago megalomaniac than our nation’s proud history of facing down autocrats.
.....
Trump’s bromance with the sociopathic Putin, unimpeded by Putin’s foul bid to swallow Ukraine, grew even more sickening with news that the Russian president’s most potent opponent, Aleksei Navalny, 47, died mysteriously in an Arctic prison — very, very suddenly, as high-profile Putin critics often do.
When a CNN reporter asked if Trump had a response to the heroic Navalny’s death, the Trump campaign pointed her to a Truth Social post that wasn’t about Navalny or Putin. It was about how awful America was.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/opinion/navalny-putin-trump.html
The Donnie/Vlad bromance is indeed sickening. Pro-Soviet MAGA needs to be buried with the Know-Nothing Party.
Does the image of a Trump-Putin 69 get you off?
"The Donnie/Vlad bromance is indeed sickening."
2017 - Trump in the WH. Russia doesn't invade Ukraine.
2018 - Trump in the WH. Russia doesn't invade Ukraine.
2019 - Trump in the WH. Russia doesn't invade Ukraine.
2020 - Trump in the WH. Russia doesn't invade Ukraine.
2021 - Biden in the WH. Biden botches Afghanistan exit.
2022 - Biden in the WH. Russia invades Ukraine.
You can't deny any of this. 🙂
2017-2020 saw NATO weakened, American retreat from world stage, US alliances damaged, Iran nuke program green-lit, tariff wars, vicious murderer MBS elevated to good-guy status, and global turmoil caused by Covid mishaps.
All made Vlad very happy.
#ProSoviet-MAGA
Do you think you have PDS?
Which is why the ruble was weaker during Trump than now.
You're a simp for neocons, bro.
Biden and Europe's policy of Russian energy dependence didn't turn out so well.
We filled Euro demand with good old USA LNG.
My Antero stock is up 500% since Joe became energy big dog.
Is that why you support the export embargo?
There is no export embargo.
Wingnut.com is lying. That is a Jesse lie as well. ML too.
There is a pause on NEW export terminal construction.
Damn that wingnut Eric Boehm.
https://reason.com/2024/01/31/bidens-natural-gas-export-ban-is-based-on-bad-math/
The Biden administration's decision to "pause" the approval of new natural gas export facilities has been cheered by environmental activists
He got it right and you are wrong again.
Oh, you only read headlines written by an intern?
RTFA, you might learn something.
He said exactly what I said and the links I gave you said dumbfuck. Lol.
You've invented an argument out of being wrong and getting called out for being wrong. It got so bad you started adding words to what I said despite me showing you exactly what I said. Only you added the word 'all' in your lie dumdum.
Now Sarcasmic is rubbing off on Buttplug. What new monster will emerge?
"Sarcasmic Palin's Bullshit 3"?
If someone stills their head up an asshole, their own or another, does that count as a butt plug?
If someone stills their head up an asshole, their own or another, does that count as a butt plug?
I'd say technically, yes. The head does plug the butt.
"...He got it right and you are wrong again..."
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
turd lies. turd is a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
turd lies. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides.
Based on the leases trump authorized? Lol.
The TDS-addled turd, ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
LOL
You're a single-issue abortion fanatic, which makes you a Democrat. Rather than just admit it, you pretend to care about other issues like foreign policy. But the only consistency to your FP views is saying whatever your abortion allies tell you to say. So now you talk like the neocons you pretended to hate 20 years ago:
"American retreat from world stage"
You're mad at Trump for not starting any new wars. And if he had started one? You'd be mad at that too!
2017-2020 saw NATO members increase defense spending dummy. Due to Trump.
Did all the leftist tribe go full retard by noon today?
Are you aware that this spending is not going into a NATO fund, but is instead spending on their own militaries?
Didn't think so.
Full retard sarc? What do you think NATO members means? Nobody made a claim there was a NATO fund retard. Reading comprehension is not your forte.
Youre doing well buddy.
I’ve never seen anyone bring up a NATO fund. Now you’re lying like Lying Jeffy.
Literally what Sarcasmic's accusing others of doing above.
Keep on going Sarc, you're doing great today!
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. The link below details all the evidence surrounding that ban. A decent person would honor that ban and stay away from Reason. Instead you keep showing up, acting as if all people should just be ok with a kiddy-porn-posting asshole hanging around. Since I cannot get you to stay away, the only thing I can do is post this boilerplate.
https://reason.com/2022/08/06/biden-comforts-the-comfortable/?comments=true#comment-9635836
turd, the TDS-addled ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
be careful out there.
best chrome towel rails in this link
https://elegant-radiators.co.uk/collections/chrome-towel-radiator
Is this a Biden scheme or a Trump scheme?
Towelly. Worst character ever.
Compassionate Conservatism?
Israel’s Far-right Finance Minister Says He's 'A Fascist Homophobe' but 'Won't Stone Gays'
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-01-16/ty-article/.premium/israels-far-right-finance-minister-im-a-fascist-homophobe-but-i-wont-stone-gays/00000185-b921-de59-a98f-ff7f47c70000
Now do the compassionate Muslims.
Don't know of one.
but you miss the point - still another group knows that fascists are "far right".
You guys will have a long propaganda campaign to re-define "fascism".
Both sides call the other fascist. And they're both right.
Oh the irony.
Talk about not knowing what words mean.
Full retard and full pre wee herman. Good work today buddy.
"reverberate every few minutes with the bombing of Gaza by the Israeli forces creating what Avi calls "the symphony of war."
At least the Nazis conducted their genocide with real musical accompaniment played with real musical instruments played by real slaves in fully functioning death camps. Israelis have much to learn.
I told you this before, it's not genocide.
Genocide contains the prefix "geno" which comes from the Greek word for race. Because the people being killed are not the same race, it's not genocide.
It's mass murder.
"Murder" is the wrong legal term.
I prefer justifiable homicide.
#KillHamas
28,000 Gazans would disagree if they weren’t dead.
edit: That’s more than the population of the town I live in.
Hamas will never stop killing Jews. So it is kill or be killed unfortunately.
I used to avoid I-P discussions. But Oct 7 changed everything.
Hamas is not all Gazans.
If there is a way to kill just Hamas then obviously that is better.
It's kill or be killed.
What does bulldozing neighborhoods and orchards have to do with killing Hamas?
To kill embedded Hamas fighters?
It is a bad situation no question.
No. The purpose of razing everything to the ground is to permanently displace the residents and then claim the land while forcing the remaining Gazans into ever more densely populated areas.
Send the Gazans to sanctuary cities in the US.
Maybe we need to put 10000 illegals in your town so you can become a real small city and become prosperous to not end up homeless again.
Have you asked for a refund for your logic classes yet?
Please give us your lesson on logic sarc. It seems to be a combination of ignorance, delusion, and pathslogically lying.
Please. Class 1. Start.
No thanks. I don’t have enough patience for intellectually deficient liars to try to you teach anything.
Is that lesson 1? It sucks. Now do lesson 2.
"28,000 Gazans would disagree if they weren’t dead."
Where'd you get that figure from, sarcasmic?
"More than 28,000 people have been killed in Gaza since the war began, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry."
Lol, of course. As expected of you, Sarckles.
Hey, aren't those the same guys who claimed that there were no Hamas facilities in hospitals or UNRWA sites? Or that they had 6 hours of fuel left for 48 days running? Very reliable.
Same guys photographing the same little boy in dozens of different beds. It's very tragic.
One day he has shrapnel in his head, another a broken arm, another he's dead from a stray bullet, another he was trapped under rubble. How he suffers. Almost as bad as the little plastic dolls lying dead in the morgues.
And they wouldn't be dead if Hamas hadn't started the war by attacking on Oct 7th. Or if Hamas had surrendered and released all the hostages once it was apparent that Israel was going to obliterate them if they didn't.
Call it what you will, but you can't deny that a musical accompaniment will make the entire enterprise more fascistic, more Nazi.
"Because the people being killed are not the same race"
So, some white flag bearing Jewish hostages are slaughtered along with the sub humans animals. We don't count those. Spoils the narrative.
If Hamas had any humanity in them they would do as the Burghers of Calais did. But they prefer that innocent Palestinians die.
Hamas is the perp. They need to die.
"If Hamas had any humanity "
Are they sub human animals or not? If you want to excel at genocidal apologetics, you need to get your story straight.
It isn't mass murder either, it is urban warfare.
The judges who heard South Africa's case against Israel's genocide found it was strong enough to proceed. They based their decision on Israel's actions - indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, ethnic cleansing, collective punishment, other war crimes, and the genocidal statements of political and military leaders.
Urban warfare is what we're seeing in the Donbas. Compare the news coverage and the difference should be apparent. We can discuss it further if you're still confused.
Pretty ironic SA brought a genocide complaint.
Especially with this fucker poised to be in power (with video).
https://twitter.com/Michael_Wgd/status/1746569948095242303
"Pretty ironic SA brought a genocide complaint."
What irony? The ANC has long been close to the Palestinian cause. It would have been far more ironic if the US had brought the charges, given the historical support for apartheid and the Jewish lobby's corruption of American politicians, and the tremendous amounts of money to be made murdering the defenseless. More ironic still would be your support for the complaint given your hard on for Nazi style genocide.
misconstrueman, you're just a Jew-hating simpleton.
That's not entirely true. He's wrong on a whole host of other topics besides.
Indeed.
"you’re just a Jew-hating simpleton."
The lady dost protest to much, methinks.
He's a Jew-hater, an apologist for the rulers of Red China, and an anti-automobile Eco-Wacko, so multiple levels of misanthropy and genocidal psychopathy here.
Hence my term for him is Watermelon Rickshaw Nazi Boy.
The Nazis also had systemic records, human experimentation, multiple disconnected sites, and, wait how are they similar again?
Don't the Israelis track every cell phone in Gaza? You think you can do that without systematic records?
"human experimentation"
Nazis already conducted some of the necessary human experimentation. They determined the minimum daily caloric intake to sustain human life. Israelis followed the Nazi numbers until Oct. 7th when they decided that it was too much, and mass starvation and disease was the way to go.
You think there's any government which doesn't track cell phones?
"there’s any government which doesn’t track cell phones?"
To further their genocidal campaign? No, that's Israel's unique contribution to Western civilization.
Ah, you must have invisibly edited your comment.
"Ah, you must have invisibly edited your comment."
I don't believe I did.
Nobartium was curious about the similarities between the Nazis and today's Israel. I gave a couple of examples.
Yup, the Israelis suck at genocide.
Now tell us why the Egyptians are preparing a walled compound to house those noble Palestinians.
Palestinians are in a shitty situation. They were corralled into ever shrinking pieces of land when the country of Israel was formed, and they can't escape because none of the neighboring countries will take them. So they've got no choice but to wait until the IDF kills them.
And here sarc demonstrates his standard ignorance. Do you know why Jordan and Egypt don't accept Palestinian refugees?
Does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that they've got nowhere to go. All they can do is wait to be killed, or starve to death.
And you applaud this.
Well, once you reject peaceful coexistence, the only choices are conquer or die.
The vast majority of people living in Gaza are not necessarily there by choice. They are the descendants of people were stuck there when Israel was formed, who couldn't leave because no neighboring countries would take them. Most of them just want to live their lives.
The vast majority of people living in Gaza are not necessarily there by choice.
Please provide your citation.
They are the descendants of people were stuck there when Israel was formed,
Please provide your citation. This will be difficult due to the influx post formation of Israel.
who couldn’t leave because no neighboring countries would take them.
And why is this? They've been allowed to leave in prior decades, what happened?
Most of them just want to live their lives.
Please provide your evidence.
I've gotten my information from many sources so I can't provide any specific citations, and I'm not going to go looking on the internet for citations to prove something to a mendacious piece of shit like you.
Provide a single source retard. You never defend your bullshit.
Uhm anyone want to tell the idiot Sarc that Israel didn't occupy the West Bank of Gaza until after the 6 Days war in 1967, and Israel was formed in 1948? Oh and who started the 6 Days War?
"Does it matter?"
You shoot a burglar in your bedroom and tell me it doesn't matter that you invited him there for some hot action.
You should join Jesse in getting a refund for any logic classes you may have taken.
How intelligent on a scale of 1 to 10 do you think this argument is?
People who understand logic laugh at you.
And anyone who thinks any of your arguments are compelling is simply proving that they embrace fallacies and reject logic.
Like leftists.
Is this lesson 2 in logic? It sucks as well. As you've continually demonstrated over the years you dont know what the fallacious terms you use actually mean.
Yeah, a silly comment beats providing a wrong answer.
Why are they not accepted by neighboring muslim nations. Surely it has to be others fault and not their own.
Please answer the question.
Why does Jordan and Egypt disallow Palestinian refugees?
Does it change the fact that they've got nowhere to go? No? Then it's a red herring.
No. It is entirely related. Youre acting like they have no responsibility of their past actions dumdum. There are reasons they are not invited due to destruction and terrorism they've deployed everywhere they've gone.
Facts are pesky things. You prefer ignorance. They need to reform their own acts. They refuse to do so.
https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/
Their population constantly supports terrorism and destruction. Yet you think they have no fault nor agency. Because youre an ignorant retard.
And since you'll ignore that one. Her risk majority supporting Oct 7.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre
Israeli news and Israeli policy organizations agree that all Palestinians are evil?
I’m shocked!
Sarc. This is an actual ad hominem. There are dozens of polls you can resource. But you remain intentionally ignorant.
"Why are they not accepted by neighboring muslim nations. "
The refugees are Israel's problem. They have been since Israel was founded and signed on to anti-genocide and refugee treaties. To expect neighbors to assist Israel in abrogating their duties under those treaties by facilitating ethnic cleansing is not something they wish to do. You wouldn't want to anyone to help Israel break her treaty obligations, would you?
No, the refugees are their own problem for voting in terrorists as "leaders".
I'll have more respect for Gazans when they stop allowing terrorists to turn hospitals into armories.
The UN recognized Israel on the condition that Israel deal with the refugees as outlined by the genocide and refugee treaties which were drawn up at the time and signed by Israel and other nations. The refugees are Israel's responsibility, no one else. You wouldn't want Israel to shirk her treaty obligations, would you?
"to turn hospitals into armories."
Armories are places where weapons are stored.
"The UN recognized Israel on the condition that Israel deal with the refugees as outlined by the genocide and refugee treaties which were drawn up at the time and signed by Israel and other nations. The refugees are Israel’s responsibility, no one else. You wouldn’t want Israel to shirk her treaty obligations, would you?"
This was *prior* to the '48 war in which Arabs invaded and attacked the Jewish settlements in Pal, meaning the Arabs did not uphold their end of the bargain, thereby releasing Israel from any part of that agreement, you lying pile of shit.
Pull that crap on someone as dumb as you are, asshole.
One may applaud this or one may ignore this. Either way, one thing is certain: that one should certainly not care about it as it would be difficult to find a group of people LESS deserving of our sympathy than the Palestinian Arabs. Martha Gellhorn spelled this out in The Atlantic back in the 1960's - after having visited the place, including the Gaza Strip in person - and guess what... the Palestinian Arabs only became much more violent and bloodthirsty since then.
“it as it would be difficult to find a group of people LESS deserving of our sympathy than the Palestinian Arabs.”
I don’t get the impression the Palestinians want your sympathy. I’ve read their statements and seen the demands of their supporters, and they never cry out for sympathy. They want freedom, an end to apartheid and occupation. So you keep you lack of sympathy and join the righteous in demanding justice for Palestine.
Of course you don't get it, you're an avowed Jew-hater.
"Of course you don’t get it,"
You're the one who thinks Palestinians want your sympathy. Could you be any more misguided?
"you’re an avowed Jew-hater"
I have no beef with Jews, it's the state of Israel, her leaders and the fuckers who support it/them I have problems with. I suspect you're something of a Jew-hater yourself. Something along the lines of the lady dost protest too much, methinks. Consult Sigmund Freud, one of my favorites among the chosen people, for his ideas on projection - a key defensive mechanism whereby one projects one's own feelings onto others when one feels threatened.
"I have no beef with Jews,"
Followed by the reasons he hates Jews:
"it’s the state of Israel, her leaders and the fuckers who support it/them I have problems with."
There are no "Palestinians", only Palestinian Arabs. Even if there were "Palestinians" it would be the shittiest nationality ever. A nationality entirely based on Jew-hatred, the desire to destroy their "infidel" neighbors and their only state, funded by the KGB, using a name popularized by the Romans. It's almost as sad as the fact that the pan-Arab flag - including that of Jordan's and the one used by the so called "Palestinians" - were drawn up by a British dude. (Well, now that I think of it, even their borders were drawn by British and French dudes).
As for their history, well... actions have consequences. Arabs shouldn't have started massacring Jews in the 1920's, shouldn't have launched a genocidal war against Jews/Israel in 1948 and they should have accepted peace, partition and coexistence back when it was feasible. As for their neighboring brethren, well.. they should take them in. Israel took in a vast majority of the 950k Mizrahi Jews who had been purged out from the Arab World by Muslims. There was some 700k Palestinian Arab "refugees" back in 1948. As for the context: there's 1 Jewish state and 21 Arab states in the world, and the Jewish state has less than 1% of landmass of the entirety of the Arab World, so there really should be no reason why they can't take their own in, same as the Jews did. It is certainly not Israel's job to resettle those Arabs and it really is unreasonable to ask Jews to give up even more of their land for an ephemeral peace with their genocidal enemies. Israel, however, is well within her right to ensure her security, especially after the 10/7 massacre.
And why did Israel suddenly expand in 1967? Just colonizers being colonizers? Or was it because they were about to be attacked by multiple Arab nations?
The Israelis and no one else need to learn any 11 shit from you!
Fuck Off, Watermelon Rickshaw Nazi Boy!
"The Israelis and no one else need to learn any 11 shit from you!"
They seem to have picked up their genocidal inclinations at the feet of the Nazis. Shame on them.
Avi gets back on the road, the same road where hundreds of young people ran for their lives and abandoned their cars and were slaughtered on the spot or marched at gunpoint into the white pickup trucks.
Roughly 70 of those trucks/vehicles were destroyed with everyone dead - terrorists, hostages, etc - by Israeli helicopters and tanks. As was some of the damage/destruction on the various settlements (similar to that police station). Deliberately not accidentally. Invoking what is called the 'Hannibal directive'.
Inside Israel there is the beginnings of actual investigative journalism of what happened on Oct 7 though of course it is all in Hebrew not English (and will never be in English as English is for a foreign audience and is thus purely propaganda for the useful idiots).
Gives a much better insight as to why the war post-Oct 7-is being fought the way it is.
So how did the 200+ Israeli hostages get back to Gaza? Walking? Or did they drive themselves?
The IDF didn't reinstate the Hannibal directive until noon about five hours after the start of the invasion. After the Gaza Division was overpowered. Read the article. So either they were brought back to Gaza before roughly noon or the IDF didn't succeed 100% because they were rotating 10 or so gunships at a time over a big area.
There are far more meaningful questions about this.
I really don't want to have a dog in this fight and your Hebrew link is useless as I guess you intended. But I've read a bit about the Hannibal Protocol. Hamas has long employed hostage taking to use as leverage against the obviously superior military of Israel. They also use their own civilian populations as leverage using them as human shields. The stated goal of Hamas is not just to conquer the state of Israel. It is the ultimate murder/genocide of the infidels starting with not just Israelis but all jews. The Israeli military reacted to the terrorist strategy by attempting to deprive them of hostages using the Hannibal protocol and by filling their prisons with Palestinians arrested on sometimes dubious charges to have a ready supply for hostage exchanges. Whether or not the IDF invoked the protocol on Oct. 7 I don't know. What I do know is that this entire situation is absurd and beyond repair and there are no good guys.
Palestine gives homes and money through its martyrs fund for those who kill Jewish citizens.
Apart from your last sentence that's a decent take. I just don't understand how can there be "no good guys"? How come Israel/Jews aren't the good guys? Even if they did something nasty, which is debatable, it would still pale in comparison to Arab-Muslim genocidal violence and it would still be just a response to all that i.e. self-defense.
For instance, Jew-haters like to say that there were "Jewish terrorists" in Mandatory Palestine. Except they always forget to mention the fact that the very first Jewish paramilitary group formed some 5 years AFTER the first large massacre of Jews in Hebron. Not a single Arab life would have ever been taken by Jewish retaliation IF the Arabs were a peaceful bunch. Needless to say, they aren't... they hadn't ever been all thanks to their fundamentalist religious fervor. Btw JFree is an avowed Jew-hater.
"How come Israel/Jews aren’t the good guys? "
That's an excellent question and I advise you think long and hard if you want an answer. What you're doing here is giving us a laundry list of different versions of apologetics for Israel's atrocious behavior. Israel is the bigger victim, the original victim, the true victim. Then some Islam bashing, and finishing off with slandering JFree. You'll never find an answer to your question with your repetition of facile propaganda points and insults. Try again,
How come Israel/Jews aren’t the good guys?
You can translate the Hebrew via google or anything of your choice. My point being - YOUR choice not my translation.
The stated goal of Hamas is not just to conquer the state of Israel. The original charter of Hamas - yes. The original charter of Likud (Revisionist Zionism) was conquering the entirety of Mandate Palestine and Trans-Jordan. Hamas' current charter is not 'Israel-friendly' but nor is it genocidal. It's online if you want to find it.
Similar to the translation issue above - what EXACTLY is being translated, from which original language so that you can understand it in English, and what is their purpose in the 'generosity' of that free translation. TANSTAAFL.
"Hamas has long employed hostage taking to use as leverage against the obviously superior military of Israel."
It's not just Hamas. It's also the PIJ, PFLP, and Fatah back in the day. Hostage taking goes back at least as far as Saladin and the crusades. The following is a link to The Great Game, about the rivalry between Russia and Britain over central asia. Agents from both sides were constantly being taken hostage by Muslim potentates, sometime the affair ended ignominiously, sometimes the hostages were treated lavishly and friendships developed.
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=93FE036EEA84A9BB8858DC2AE4C8F9FB
"They also use their own civilian populations as leverage using them as human shields."
This is propaganda. In fact the militias have constructed a vast network of tunnels for their military needs, and the civilian population are kept separate on the surface. A human shield is when a civilian is forced to stand between a fighter and his enemy. This is not happening, and for good reason. The Israelis show no compunction when it comes to murdering civilians in cold blood. Any attempt to conscript shields from among the civilians (even Jewish civilians) wouldn't protect the fighters.
"“They also use their own civilian populations as leverage using them as human shields.”
This is propaganda. In fact the militias have constructed a vast network of tunnels for their military needs, and the civilian population are kept separate on the surface. "
mtrueman calls Hamas' use of human shields propaganda, and then in literally the next sentence, describes how they do in fact use human shields.
There's something about tunnels you need to understand. It's the earth above the tunnel that shields the underground areas. Not humans. There are ten meters of earth between where bombs are expected to explode and the underground enclosure intended to be protected. Human shields are humans forced stand between opposing parties. Similarly, sitting in a heavily armored tank is not using human shields because the armor is metal rather than human. If you were sitting in a tank surrounded by humans forced to be there to dissuade enemies from attacking, that's another story.
Anyone fighting the Israelis knows this propaganda is absurd, given that Israelis have no compunction about murdering anyone (including Jews) who stands between them and their target. The notion that human shields would dissuade the occupiers is ridiculous.
"There’s something about tunnels you need to understand. It’s the earth above the tunnel that shields the underground areas. Not humans. "
It's both, dipshit.
It's earth, dipshit. A tunnel is hollowed out from the earth. The layer of earth is what shields in the tunnels from the explosions on the surface. Bomb shelters work on the same principle. Human shields are humans forced stand between opposing parties. These are not difficult concepts.
Inside Israel there is the beginnings of actual investigative journalism of what happened on Oct 7 though of course it is all in Hebrew not English (and will never be in English as English is for a foreign audience and is thus purely propaganda for the useful idiots).
Uh, you do realize that people can be bilingual and multilingual, in particular Israeli citizens who hail from everywhere, that Google Translate exists, that other AI real-time translators are up-and-coming if not already here, and that nothing stays a secret forever in the Information Age, right?
Esoterica and obscurantism is a damn hard sell anymore, and even harder when attributed to the world's scapegoat nation, Israel.
Start again.
Americans are not multilingual and don't pay attention to anything that isn't in English. Certainly the general public, probably the media, and likely even the government.
One example. This story has never been mentioned afaik in any significant US media and never will be. The Hannibal story though has a big impact in how the story of the war is thought about. Is hostage release even a real goal of the Israeli govt or are they already dead? Whether rules of engagement/targeting consider 'civilian' or is all talk of casualties just Hamas propaganda?
The US has every 'right' to ensure that the tons of money we spend and the diplomatic cover we provide are based on factual information about reality. Not just a desire to reinforce a pre-existing narrative and the weaponization of epithets to prevent any new news.
Je parle Français, Yo hablo Español asi asi, und Ich sprache eine kleine Deutsche!. Furthermore, you do realize that Hebrew is the liturgical language of Judaism, there are Yiddish, Aramaic, and Arabic publications in the U.S., Google Translate is available for free, and Babbel is advertised widely in the U.S.
Weak sauce. Again, start again.
"There was one terrorist left in the building," Avi says. "Israeli forces demolished it, with him inside."
That's one of the most based things I've ever read. Awesome.
That's the mentality to have here. Every single Hamas (or "Palestinian," if you're a brazen liar) should be measuring the rest of their lives in hours. Israel is done with them - and not one thing the rest of the world has to say is going to make them back off.
Good. About damn time.
You do know that includes Israeli LGBTQs who openly and proudly serve in the IDF, proudly keep and bear arms as private Israeli citizens, and are no doubt ashamed of and disavow the likes of Queers 4 Palestine, right?
"You do know that includes Israeli LGBTQs"
Who gives a fuck? Nazis had plenty of queers in their ranks, too. You might enjoy Jonathan Littell's The Kindly Ones, a novel centering on a queer SS colonel.
https://libgen.is/fiction/65C82958A0AF0BBFD3E52A4D161A1E92
Not to be confused with Anthony Powell's The Kindly Ones, one of the novels in his Dance to the Music of Time, a kind of British version of Proust.
https://libgen.is/fiction/5482193EDE84C8A6604E281FC94D0619
"Who gives a fuck? Nazis had plenty of queers in their ranks, too. You might enjoy Jonathan Littell’s The Kindly Ones, a novel centering on a queer SS colonel.
https://libgen.is/fiction/65C82958A0AF0BBFD3E52A4D161A1E92"
Antisemite asshole makes claims of facts, offers novel as cite. Yes, this pile of shit really is this stupid.
Yea. Why do you ask?
I have far more respect for Israeli LGBTQ - who spends less time hosting Drag Queen Story Hour and more time sending terrorists screaming on their way to Hell - than I do American LGBTQ, who only and exclusively seem interested in normalizing pedophilia.
“ who only and exclusively seem interested in normalizing pedophilia.”
I see far more heterosexual, conservative Christians doing that than I see LGTBQ people doing it.
Example: Catholics and Mormons
Forget it. They's rolling.
No you don't.
What you see are individual cases of Catholics and Mormons being spotlighted for their hypocrisy. And that's fair - when they practice the exact opposite of what they preach, it's fair to call them out on it. But they're also exception, not the norm, among Catholics and Mormons. It's noteworthy because nobody expects it from them.
With the LGBTQ and their enablers, it's the norm. It IS what we expect of them. This is precisely the degeneracy and lasciviousness and predatory behavior they preach. And it's directed very specifically at children.
You can rail on Christians for their hypocrisy all you want - but don't think that it gives you cover for the naked threat to children that LGBTQ doesn't even pretend to hide anymore.
If Abrahamic religions and Christianity in particular condemned the abuse of children, you would think that child abuse would be condemned in The Top Ten.
Condemning and outlawing child abuse is a product of Enlightenment Reason and modernity and good people of all sexual orientations are against child abuse!
Start again!
Non sequitur.
It's plainly clear that the Bible (which is a little more than just the Ten Commandments, fyi) is explicitly against that sort of immorality. And the Catechism of the Catholic Church even more so. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. I can cite you chapter and verse if you want, but it's not like you're fooling anyone in the first place.
And anyway, even if you had a point - which you don't - smearing Christians doesn't clean the mud off the LGBTP. You're trying to distract from it. It's not working.
and modernity and good people of all sexual orientations are against child abuse!
Except for the LGBTP and their enablers. You can plainly see this every time they rebel against any action taken to protect children from their degenerate, lascivious, predatory behavior.
"You can have your gay pride parade - but you can't engage in sexually explicit activity in front of children."
"THEN WHAT'S THE POINT OF EVEN HAVING A PARADE!?!"
"No gay porn in the elementary school library."
"But then how will they learn about homosexuality!?"
"Fine, let's read it out loud verbatim at the school board hearing."
"NO! NO DON'T DO THAT!!!"
I mean, really - who do you think you're kidding anymore? Everyone's wise to these sicko perverts. And the only reason anyone has in defending them anymore, is... well, don't make me tap the sign.
https://i.imgur.com/agVK2U6.jpeg
Then you obviously have not read your Bible and everything you have in quotes was said by no one ever.
And I am not touching any stupid link you post. Go fuck yourself, Torquemada!
Solid rebuttal. You addressed precisely nothing, and then ran away in urine-soaked pants screaming profanity and insults.
Start again. Groomer.
The only things I'm grooming are the fletchings of my arrows! Don't even think about bringing your little lynching bee my way!
You have no respect for any LGBTQ people from what I've seen of your past postings and my past run-ins with you.
Nonsense. I had no problem with the LGBTQ when their narrative was, "What happens between consenting adults in the privacy of their bedroom is nobody's business."
Honestly, I didn't even have much of a problem with it when it was "We're here, we're queer." Though, admittedly, I much preferred the attributed Reaganism, "I really don’t mind what people do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."
LGBTQ lost all respect - and credibility, and any hopes of being even slightly defensible - when they made it VERY clear that "they're coming for the children." When they made the overt choice to pivot from "weird gross secret red light district kink lifestyle" to "virulent social contagion specifically targeting young people across all mediums" - yea, exactly what is there to respect? You tell me.
They're the titular mouse in If You Give A Mouse A Cookie. And they bit off more than they can chew. The veil has dropped, and normal, polite, tolerant society now sees exactly what they are and what they're after.
They're done, TRE. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow - but soon. Normal society is just a few more tampon dispensers in the men's room and gay pornos in the library and twinks dancing for toddlers and bearded men stealing scholarships and championships away from ushering back the days of being tied to a truck hitch and dragged for a few miles.
Mark my words. They pushed tolerance too far, and they're within spitting distance of Falling Down becoming a biography.
That quote was from Oscar Wilde, and he could have never lived to make that quote because of knuckle-draggers like you!
Now that you've made hour little Caesar speech, just so you know, I'm a peaceful Pan man who means no harm to anyone of any age. But if anyone threatens my Life, Liberty, and Property, the only "Falling Down" they'll do is down my stairs and ventilated!
And their truck will become their Viking Funeral on land when it has 4 flat tires, 4 bent rims, and the rope shoved down the gas tank to turn it into a giant funeral pyre flambeau!
Have a nice day, Torquemada!
🙂
😉
I’m a peaceful Pan man
What, like a little boy who refused to grow up and started hanging around with fairies?
Liz takes the round up and now we have an honest article with Nancy? Is reason going back to the glory days?
Check out this.
https://reason.com/2000/07/01/cable-access/?comments=true#comments
She gives a very biased perspective, but she doesn't strawman the counter argument. She steal mans it and says why even that perspective is wrong.
Last I would like to point out the comment section. It has gotten more comments, but is about the same, except for that last guy
I find it funny that a search of this article for 'Arafat' yields 0 matches. This intractable mess is his baby; largely a byproduct of his own greed and megalomania. The conflict between Israel and Hamas was very, very lucrative for Yassir. He died, like Hugo Chavez, a billionaire.
True enough. My favorite picture of Yassir is the "Shocked...shocked" look of horror on his face after 9/11, when he see what his invention of air piracy hath wrought.