What if Men Could Produce Their Own Eggs?
In vitro gametogenesi could allow same-sex couples, post-menopausal women, and couples experiencing infertility to have children.

Japanese researchers announced last year that healthy fertile mice had been born using eggs created from male mice's tail-tip cells. The male-derived eggs were fertilized with regular sperm, thus producing pups with two fathers. Reproductive biologist Katsuhiko Hayashi, who led the work at Kyushu University, thinks that it will be technically possible to create a viable human egg from a male skin cell within a decade, according to The Guardian.
This achievement builds on earlier work in which another team of Japanese researchers created mouse eggs from tail-tip cells that resulted in the birth of healthy offspring in 2017. Another Japanese research group in 2021 using mouse stem cells created sperm that produced healthy fertile offspring.
Now researchers at private biotech companies like Conception Bio and Gameto are racing to see if they can develop this in vitro gametogenesis (IVG) technology as a way to safely enable post-menopausal women, couples experiencing infertility, and same-sex couples to bear biologically related children. Perhaps even solo reproduction in which single men could produce both sperm and eggs that combined would result in them having biological children in the future.
Bear in mind that only seven healthy mouse pups emerged from the 630 two-dad embryos transferred by the Japanese researchers. So significant technical hurdles must be addressed before IVG can be safely used to give birth to human babies. But some folks object to pursuing human procreation using IVG even after it becomes as safe as conventional and in vitro fertilization (IVF) births.
IVG is "a perversion of the sanctity of procreation as a fundamental aspect of human life," said Ben Hurlbut, a bioethicist at Arizona State University, in USA Today. He added, "It makes it into an industrial project that responds to and also inspires and cultivates the desires of their future customers." Marcy Darnovsky, head of the left-wing Center for Genetics and Society, warned on NPRthat IVG "could take us into a kind of Gattaca world." (She was referencing the 1997 sci-fi movie in which a eugenicist state is ruled by people born with genetically enhanced abilities.) Over at the conservative Federalist, Jordan Boyd asserts that by developing IVG, "the global fertility industry seeks to erase women from procreation one manufactured egg at a time."
The National Academy of Sciences addresses many of these ethical concerns in its In Vitro-Derived Human Gametes conference proceedings report released in October 2023. That report is summarizing the results of a conference on the topic convened by the NAS in April 2023.
Far from "erasing women," IVG will instead enable otherwise infertile women to produce as many eggs as they desire without having to endure treatments like ovarian stimulation in the hope of yielding sufficient eggs to succeed at conventional IVF.
Hurlbut is right that many people regard procreation as a "fundamental aspect of human life." This would be especially true for the 9 percent of men and 11 percent of women of reproductive age in the United States who have experienced fertility problems. Then there are people past conventional reproductive age and same-sex couples who would like to have biologically related children. Far from being an "industrial project," the rollout of safe IVG would fulfill the desires of these future customers to build their families.
What about Gattaca fears? The report does acknowledge that "combining IVG with polygenic risk screening could revolutionize the ability to select embryos." Polygenic risk screening (PRS) totes up the genetic variants that increase each embryo's chances of developing a particular disease or trait. This is similar to the already widely accepted practice of pre-implantation genetic diagnosis during IVF, in which parents test and select embryos in order to avoid deleterious heritable conditions. PRS would increase would-be parents' ability to select a preferred combination of traits from among many more embryos.
Rather than limit the use of PRS, Stanford University bioethicist Hank Greely suggested that, "in general, it is better to rely on parental choices to make decisions about how people wish to create families." This follows from the reasonable presumption that parents generally seek to provide the best lives for their potential progeny. The sorry history of eugenics laws in the U.S., where tens of thousands were forcibly sterilized during the 20th century, should make anyone cautious about government meddling in people's reproductive choices, including the use of safe IVG. As University of California, Irvine, law professor Michele Goodwin correctly noted, "Where law has intervened over time in matters of reproduction, it has served to undermine civil liberties and civil rights."
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Well, the comments should be interesting.
Step 2. Government funding of Frankenstein. You already know activists will demand government subsidies at a rate of 7 out of 600 healthy attempts.
Only for the illegals
The Gummint already does that. It’s called EBT, WIC, Earned Income Tax Credit, Section 8, utility subsidies, foster care subsidies, and Gummint Skoolz. Hell, this is bad enough to turn grown-ups into The Monster (which, Pop-Up Video Factoid, was the name of Frankenstein’s creation in Mary Shelley’s story.)
If consenting adults do this with their own money at their own risk and expense, it is nobody else’s Goddamn business. And I say this as a Childfree-By-Choice Pan Male with no intention to have kids.
Are you saying that libertarians might have a special interest in male auto-reproduction?
C'mon, folks!
First people bitch about a global "population bust" and not having enough people to support their precious Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid "lock-box" and start wanting taxpayer bennies to encourage procreation and even Ceauçescu-esque policies against abortion and contraception!
Then, when someone comes up with a new method of fertilization that could be done without Gummint goading people with loot and guns, everybody has a shit-fit!
Make up your mind, people! And whatever you do, keep your ass and your doppelganger's ass off my lawn!
🙂
😉
Some of us might.
But read this: https://brucemajors.substack.com/p/i-remember-mama
Interesting article. Izzat chu, Bruce? Exceptions duly noted and honored.
Still, as the Comments on Reason show, there’s lots of Venn Diagram overlap between Pro-Natalists and Luddites within TradCon circles as well as overlap between T.E.R.F.s and TradCons on Sex Essentialism and new birthing technology.
They have the right to their own personal choices at their own expense, of course, but when they call for banning other options, I say they need to get a room away from the rest of us.
What if you end up with a YY gamete?
Are those viable? I think the people born not in a lab with that issue are usually XXY or XYY.
And crazy.
No chance of this being a bad idea. None at all.
Damned-and-Sick will decide ALL such matters for ALL of the rest of us! Shit is twat Damned-and-Sick DOES, dammit!!!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits here!
Fuck off, spaz.
Fascists reflexively defend their fellow fascists! Twat an UDDER surprise!
If you could just condense your posts, boil them down to only what is necessary to convey your point, with less rambling poetry attempts and such... Then I would read what you write.
When faced with 1,000 words that look AI generated, though, I just move on.
Are you a bot? Am I being foolish by conversing with a machine?
I... Am... Your... Robot... Mommy!
(My wife used to say that in a totally flat, slow voice, to drive our then-toddler son crazy!!!)
Maybe he's a test tube baby.
Nobody is gonna read that shit - it says Sqrlsy right there at the top.
Safe and effective with no side effects.
It’s as good or as bad as any method of reproduction.
You know who else was born by sperm-and-egg reproduction?
🙂
😉
Everyone except Jesus?
Jesus was just another result of sleeping around. Mary got knocked up by some guy other then Joseph and she tried out the big lie, "God put a child in me." Joseph was enough of an idiot to believe the lie and a new cult was born.
This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever encountered.
So much so that I almost feel sorry for you.
OK then, magic fairies.
Well, this is being very generous and assuming that Jesus actually existed and waan't a folk hero composite of other Gods and Demigods.
To quo,
Why is this an ignorant comment?
From a Jewish perspective, it seems like this woman claimed to have never had sex, and that the baby was an immaculate conception.
By using Occam’s razor, it seems like the most likely explanation is that she had sex with another person, and got pregnant.
To think that the creator of the universe made her pregnant is pretty far-fetched.
So the simplest and most likely explanation is the true explanation.
Maybe she was raped by a Roman soldier and repressed the traumatic memory.
My personal aphorism for some years now:
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
And all the moral panickers bitching about "The Population Bust" are saying: "If you can, then you must."
Why can't we all just make our own choice and pay our own freight?
Jane, you ignorant slut, because you don't know what your betters know. If you knew what they know, you'd be them.
I get that all the time, though I am a Male and look nothing like Jane Curtin.
Well, fatal conceit and the problem of knowledge don't care whether any of us begat or bear young or not. They're still there no matter what the plans of Pinky and the Brain Mice-Men. *Narf!*
🙂
😉
The natalists disagree about this. Peachy Keenan (and Amy Way and many others) are against motherless kids. Richard Hanania and others support techo-eugenics to end the baby bust and to eliminate low IQs and inequality.
“Perhaps even solo reproduction in which single men could produce both sperm and eggs that combined would result in them having biological children in the future.”
That would result in the most inbred human being within a single generation possible. Why would anyone want to produce a child from such self-incest?
Also, not wanting to have sexual intercourse with someone of the opposite sex is not a fertility problem.
I would like Bailey to read any book written on evolutionary biology as to why the mixing of genes from multiple parents evolved.
That would require literacy.
You would think with his chicken little concern with pandemics he would pick up a book.
Hmm, that sounds patriarchal, and probably colonizing.
"That would result in the most inbred human being within a single generation possible.
It would be essentially a cloning technique.
"Why would anyone want to produce a child from such self-incest?"
Somewhere for old billionaires to stick their brain according to sci-fi.
No, it would not be cloning. The sperm could deliver genes not expressed in the "father's" genome.
True, but it would still be essentially cloning. The genome itself would be essentially the same regardless of the expression.
Again, not if CRISPR is brought in to vary the genetics of the gametes.
Well yes, but that's a secondary process you're introducing. Mickey Rat was talking strictly about in-vitro gametogenesis.
No, perhaps you don't understand that cloning is an exact copy, and sexual reproduction is not, even if from the same parent.
Cloning is an identical genetic copy which is exactly what someone created from a single parent would be.
You're not going to get a different picture no matter how hard you shake up the same puzzle pieces before reassembly. There will be changes created by environmental differences experienced by the kid's body, and potentially different expression, but they would still be a clone.
Like Encog said, the only way to alter the result would be changing the genes with CRISPR-Cas9 or a potential similar process.
I think I disagree with you, but you make a good point. I think.
No, it would not. Cloning is a copy by a mitosis process. This would be by a meiosis process, would be like taking two copies of the same book taking half the pages of both out randomly and recombining them into one volume. The content from the result would would all be from the original book, but you would almost certainly have double copies of pages from the orginal and therefore be missing others. It would not result in an exact copy of the orginal.
"No, it would not. Cloning is a copy by a mitosis process."
No, it is not. Cloning is simply the process of producing individual organisms with identical genomes. You're limiting the definition to one aspect.
Also, it wouldn't be like rearranging words on a page, it would be like redoing a jigsaw puzzle.
You can't just swap out the HERC2 at position 15q13 for a CDNF. Your organism won't work.
I’ve thought about it for a bit and maybe if the original has rs916977 and rs12913832 SNPs at HERC2 and you delete rs916977 and create a second copy of rs12913832, you can change the eye color to blue, but that’s a lot more complicated than just the in-vitro gametogenesis and would probably necessitate Cas-9.
Yeah, but, a man has 2 copies of every gene (except on the X chromosome), one from his mother and one from his father. After recombination of meiosis, this egg and sperm may get 2 copies of the same gene, essentially, he’ll have some genes that are duplicates from grandma and some that are duplicates from grandpa, unlike the fother.
Or more simply, the baby could get 2 X chromosomes, thus be a female and definitely not a clone. Or 2 Y’s which I’m guessing is fatal.
YYX results in Kleinfelder's syndrome, I think. Not fatal. YY probably is fatal, but if Mother's point is valid then a non-viable fetus is still a clone, though a disappointing one.
'Also, not wanting to have sexual intercourse with someone of the opposite sex is not a fertility problem.'
Pause for a moment, and think what this will be like in our DEI authoritarian government-provided social future. Or just think about having sex with the people at the DMV.
Who says the DMV has to be the one doing the egg-making procedure? Or that people couldn't have sex *GASP!* just for pleasure?
Sex for pleasure? Sounds like a brave, new world.
Not necessarily. The man could use CRISPR to mix things up in either the created "egg" or epigenetically in his sperm.
Also, not wanting to have sexual intercourse with someone of the opposite sex is not a
fertilityproblem.FTF Gays and MGTOW
🙂
😉
Well, if you bring E Jean Carroll into the picture, then "not wanting to have sexual intercourse with someone of the opposite sex" becomes problematic. At the very least a "micro aggression".
I brought E. Jean Carroll into the picture of my smartphone. The micraggression is entirely on her part.
Not even with Trump's dick!
Crispr deletes and pastes copies in to and out of dna. To simulate another persons genes would be pointless and take forever and each time they do it (for half the genome which is astoundingly huge) they run the risk of mutation and damaged dna. It’s preposterous
The idea of CRISPR is to vary and not duplicate DNA and with CRISPR sync-ed up with AI, getting a desired pattern would not have to take forever.
And all changes in Genetics are mutation. The only issue is whether the mutation is compatible with human health, flourishing, and augmentation. Prospective parents wanting the best for their children would naturally want mutations that benefit their children.
Well... No. A Clone is made from a single cell and is a genetic copy because it is from the exact genetic code of the donor.
This method takes half the code from a single cell and then takes the other half from a sperm cell. Even if it is a sperm cell from the same person the genetic code they are created from is half from their father and half from their mother. Their sperm is not the same as their fathers sperm or their mothers egg.
You ought to read up on how sperm gets made in the testes. It is a fascinating process that creates several genetic options from one person. Not all the sperm cells in a male ejaculation will create the same person when mixing with the same egg. It's one of the reasons fraternal twins are different. They are the result of two eggs and two different sperm.
"What if Men Could Produce Their Own Eggs?"
They would no longer have to make special trips to the grocery store after their Signifi-cunt Udder forgot to buy some?
OK. A little better. Silly puns can be mildly amusing.
"Tatsuhiko Hayashi, who led the work at Kyushu University, thinks that it will be technically possible to create a viable human egg from a male skin cell within a decade"
I think that timeframe's wildly optimistic. Look at how long ago mice and "Dolly" were cloned, and the difficulty transposing those processes to human cells. And what their doing here is very close to cloning.
What works in mice rarely works in humans, at least at the start. It points the way, but doesn't usually take us straight there. Otherwise our medicine would be fifty years ahead.
Says the guy who doesn’t realize that people are already being replaced with clones.
*points and starts screeching
Clones? I thought they were lizard-people aliens.
Dumbest possible use for cloning:
Clone a politician every 8 years and you could have a single genetic blueprint in the White House forever.
That’s essentially what they did in the movie Aeon Flux.
And when they do THAT, we are essentially TOTALLY Fluxed over, for Aeons and Aeons and Aeons!!!
I seem to recall genetic selection for pro creation being one of the big setups in A Brave New World....
That's exactly what I was thinking as well. They also incubated the kids from conception to "birth" (can that even be called birth?) in some sort of pod instead of a uterus.
"pro creation"
I like how your phone spelled that. Kind of appropriate in this situation.
They already do, you fucking bigot.
'Over at the conservative Federalist, Jordan Boyd asserts that by developing IVG, "the global fertility industry seeks to erase women from procreation one manufactured egg at a time."'
Heroes of the progressive feminist revolution!
A world without women?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS5phSl2o78
The YMCA?
A rush concert?
A rescreaning of shawshank redemption?
That seems fair to me.
After all, feminists have been harping endlessly about "men are not necessary." It's about time the screechers have to face up to their own redundancy.
“Bear in mind that only seven healthy mouse pups emerged from the 630 two-dad embryos transferred by the Japanese researchers.”
This key point needs to be reiterated. I have no problem experimenting on mice, but when you start talking about humans, you are essentially creating hundreds of human lives to get 7.
Even if you do not believe a human life (deserving of human rights) exists at fertilization, you have to believe at some point that developing child is deserving of rights. Whatever that bright (or grey) line is for you, you need to understand that the second you hit it, you are performing medical experiments on a human being without their consent. It is unlikely that all these embryos died right off. Many probably developed past any line of you'd draw for human embryos. And we of course have no data on what will happen to these mice over following days, months or years.
I love scientific progress and I am glad we live in a world of modernizing technology. But you cannot let this miracle of humanity overshadow or excuse a historically common human malpractice: the cynical exploitation of the innocent for selfish gain.
The gap between “rolling the dice with many, many human lives” and “medical procedure that ethically creates life” is a chasm, and we- for this procedure- have very little insight how that will actually be closed. The idea that we could see this medical technology ethically applied in a decade is, well, foolish at best and cynical propaganda at worst.
These humans would never be more than a clump of cells per the current belief of the birth canal fairy determining when a clump of cells evolved to human.
Why not transfer it? It’s not like the chinks are using humanized mice to create deadly viruses
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html
It would be interesting to know how many of the 2 dad embryos actually implanted. In human IVF, average graded embryos only have a 50/50 shot at implanting (ie. half die right off).
This key point needs to be reiterated. I have no problem experimenting on mice, but when you start talking about humans, you are essentially creating hundreds of human lives to get 7.
Someone's never made a scientific omelet.
Ugh. The drive-by, ethical handwaving on display is particularly disappointing from Mr Bailey, here.
“Rather than limit the use of PRS, Stanford University bioethicist Hank Greely suggested that, “in general, it is better to rely on parental choices to make decisions about how people wish to create families.”
Look, I am the first to argue that parental choice is close to sacrosanct. As creator of the child, a parent hold’s a child’s rights in trust until such time as the child has the capacity to exercise those rights. Governments, and society in general should give great deference to parents.
But that Trust/Trustee relationship is not absolute.
When people talk about “embryonic selection”, I am reminded of the stories of Chinese villages where parents would “select” which children would qualify for their “One Child” family by dumping newborn girls into wells or leaving them in dumpsters.
Parents generally should be trusted to do what is right for their children, even if what they think is “right” is not what we would normally do. But we aren’t talking about lying about Santa, religious indoctrination, child modeling or other lifestyle choices. We are talking about the Trust-holder choosing to eliminate the Trustee because it is not convenient to them. This is the textbook definition of a fiduciary violating their Trust…and that a self proclaimed bio-ethicist would blithely sidestep such quandaries tells us all we need to know about the intellectual bankruptcy of that “field” of study.
In my experience bioethicist should never be listened to on what they consider ethical.
However, the infanticide in Red China was entirely driven by the Communist government dictating the peaceful reproduction and creation of families. No such atrocity is required for private individuals to produce eggs from cells.
Must see videoclip. In 2007 Biden was asked if he would allow sanctuary cities to exist. His answer was NO. He said that sanctuary cities turn into dumps and the only reason they exist is because the Federal government doesn't enforce the law.
“We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked & circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently & lawfully to become immigrants in this country.” Glad we can agree on this, Barack Obama. #SecureTheBorder
Is this proof he is not in charge?
He used the language of Hitler!!!
You know what was funny about that video? I barely heard a word he said, but I was struck by how he could put a sentence together, speak coherently and seemed like he had a handle on his own thoughts.
‘Trump is much less well educated than Mussolini’
ANGUS REID speaks to Mark Cousins about his documentary The March On Rome, commissioned in Italy, about Italian fascism then and now
.
Beginning with Donald Trump quoting Mussolini and refusing to disown the words despite their provenance — “It’s better to live one day like a lion” — the film sets out to draw parallels between events 100 years ago and now, ending with a “rogues’ gallery” of contemporary leaders of the far right, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, Meloni, Modi, Orban, Germany’s AfD and so on.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/%E2%80%98trump-much-less-well-educated-mussolini%E2%80%99
.
Omegalul, morning star. A literal socialist outlet.
Never change, child porn spreader.
Socialists have always been at war with fascists.
And liberals like myself fight both.
Which is why you proudly linked them.
Better than the child porn he's linked to in the past
"Socialists have always been at war with fascists."
Communists were at war with Fascists. As I know that you know because we've been through this a million times before, fascism is socialism too.
Interesting to see you drop the mask for a second and come rushing to the defense of socialism, though.
You're an idiot.
Fascism and socialism are far different ideologies. Just be happy with your fellow Aryan Supremacists.
The amazing amount of retarded beliefs you consider factual....
You're a liar, because I know you know by now this isn't true. You're deliberately lying when you claim that the National Socialists weren't socialist.
Why Are We Socialists?
We are socialists because we see in socialism,that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.
Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and regaining German freedom. Socialism, therefore, is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total fighting brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it is everything, the future, freedom, the fatherland!
The sin of liberal thinking was to overlook socialism’s nation-building strengths, thereby allowing its energies to go in anti-national directions. The sin of Marxism was to degrade socialism into a question of wages and the stomach, putting it in conflict with the state and its national existence. An understanding of both these facts leads us to a new sense of socialism, which sees its nature as nationalistic, state-building, liberating and constructive.
The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of wages, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day — though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform — but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the fatherland. The bourgeoisie does not want to recognize the strength of the working class. Marxism has forced it into a straitjacket that will ruin it. While the working class gradually disintegrates in the Marxist front, bleeding itself dry, the bourgeoisie and Marxism have agreed on the general lines of capitalism, and see their task now to protect and defend it in various ways, often concealed.
We are socialists because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces. We have no intention of begging for that right. Incorporating him in the state organism is not only a critical matter for him, but for the whole nation. The question is larger than the eight-hour day. It is a matter of forming a new state consciousness that includes every productive citizen. Since the political powers of the day are neither willing nor able to create such a situation, socialism must be fought for. It is a fighting slogan both inwardly and outwardly. It is aimed domestically at the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time, because both are sworn enemies of the coming workers’ state. It is directed abroad at all powers that threaten our national existence and thereby the possibility of the coming socialist national state.
Socialism is possible only in a state that is united domestically and free internationally. The bourgeoisie and Marxism are responsible for failing to reach both goals, domestic unity and international freedom. No matter how national and social these two forces present themselves, they are the sworn enemies of a socialist national state.
We must therefore break both groups politically. The lines of German socialism are sharp, and our path is clear.
We are against the political bourgeoisie, and for genuine nationalism!
We are against Marxism, but for true socialism!
We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature!
We are for the National Socialist German Workers’ Party!
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/haken32.htm
Contact Wikipedia and all their sources then (like Brittanica):
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
.
Fascism rose to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4][5] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I before spreading to other European countries, most notably Germany.[4] Fascism also had adherents outside of Europe.[6] Opposed to anarchism, democracy, pluralism, liberalism, socialism, and Marxism,[7][8] fascism is placed on the far-right wing within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][8][9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Explain to them they are wrong and fascism = socialism.
Please record - I want to hear their peals of laughter.
Fucknut. It’s all there in black and white. You can post as many weasely apologetics as you want, but the National Socialists called themselves socialists, promised socialism, preached socialism and then socialized German healthcare, insurance, pensions, transportation, infrastructure, business and industry.
Quoting pettyfoggers waffling over definitions doesn’t change reality.
Also, nothing in your Wikipedia quote precludes the National Socialist’s socialism. Did you even read it?
Where is the part that claims what you do?
"promised socialism"
by killing their citizens?
Politicians lie. Only actual actions matter.
This is the most retarded defense of socialism isnt fascism ever.
Socialism often kills their own polulations. Lol.
“promised socialism”
by killing their citizens?
Yes.
Remember the 20th century? The socialist states worldwide made that their hallmark.
No wonder Open Society stopped paying your ignorant ass.
Why do you keep proving our accusations of being ignorant to history and rely on narratives is true?
Please note that Hitler did not consider Nazis to be Fascists. Only Mussolini's party was Fascist.
In Germany during the 20's there were three groups vying for power:
Social Democrats
Communists
Nazis
All agreed on top down, completely controlled economies. The winner hated Jews more than the others and were also the best street fighters. Ideology was never a consideration, they all agreed that the state required absolute power.
The Nazi Party Platform was a 25-point program for the creation of a Nazi state and society. Hitler presented the program at the Hofbräuhaus Beerhall in Munich, Germany on February 24, 1920.
Here are the points that outline the creation of a socialist state:
12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.
15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municipal orders.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform
And don't forget their support of Positive Christianity. Without that, they never would have had popular infiltrators in the U.S. in the form of The German-American Bund.
Don't forget what "Positive Christianity" actually was, and don't forget about Kirchenkampf.
It wasn't anti-Christian or anti-church if they went along with Nazism, of which there were millions of Christians and many complacent churches.
And I'm sure Nazis wouldn't approve of any means of reproduction that would allow fertility and fecundity for Jews and other Non-Aryans, Homosexuals, and anyone who defies the Nazi view of "The Common Good Over The Individual Good."
Socialists are literally fascists. Again. Read their own fucking statements retard. Primary sources exist for a reason.
Here you go dumbass – list of the types of socialism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism
Anarchism Anarchist economics Anarchist schools of thought Authoritarian socialism Christian socialism Communism Democratic socialism Ethical socialism History of anarchism History of communism History of socialism Labour movement “The labor problem” Left-libertarianism Liberal socialism Libertarianism Libertarian socialism List of communist ideologies Market socialism Marxian economics Marxism Marxist schools of thought Mutualism (economic theory) Reformism Revolutionary socialism Social democracy Socialism Socialist economics Socialist mode of production Socialist state State socialism Syndicalism
What’s missing?
Oh, FASCISM is missing! Because it is completely different.
Okay – cue the part where Wikipedia is “liberal propaganda”.
Oh a wikipedia article edited by socialists, that easily overrides the,
- Nazi Party program which declares it will nationalize corporations and communalize businesses.
- The fact that they nationalized 56% of German corporations before WW2
- All of Hitler and Goebbels speeches declaring that Nationalism without socialism is impossible
- Their name, the National Socialists
- Did I mention that they managed to nationalize half of German business and industry before WW2, and corporatized the rest?
You can quote as many socialists swearing that it had nothing to do with Nazism as you want, but facts are facts, shill.
The Nazis and the Communists agreed on one thing, that the other side was evil. They were both right.
Don't let Sarcasmic catch you dissing Nazis and communists. He gets really upset and will accuse you of promoting genocide.
Honestly.
It's the damndest thing I ever saw.
"The Nazi's let businesses exist and had complete control over them, how they operated, what they could say, and how much money they would take from them, but they didn't OWN them like the socialists did, so totes not even close to the same thing!"
Narrator: It was basically the same thing
We call it corporatism, which is a form of socialism, but for the most part the Nazis didn't let businesses exist and nationalized them.
Mussoloni in his writings literally stated he would use government to control business in order to save forms of socialism that utilized state usurpation of the business. He recognized it was the same thing, but had to change the promotion of socialism.
Hitler's Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists both believed Nazis were not Fascists.
Fascism is a method of governance that can use a variety of socialism for its economy. It can also use Capitalism, as defined by Marx (Karl, the unfunny Marx Brother) which was what Great Britain was using in the late 1800s. A system where the government supported certain well connected businesses while leaving others to fend for themselves.
Comparing Fascism to Socialism is like comparing Communism to Democracy.
Multiple people's were separated into warring tribes that wore different clothes throughout time.
Fascists and socialsists (which fascists usually are) seem to always land on taking resources from the people under threat of death and having the government have absolute control of those resources. How they went about this is semantics. Whether they go so far as owning and controlling absolutely everything the country has/makes, or 'allows' the market to operate but the companies and citizens do what they say or they die, these are differences in name only. The end result is an authoritarian, cruel, overly powerful government that is in control, not the people. The communists and fascists hated each other in the way the Russian mob hated the Italian mob. These aren't sitting on the opposite ends of any spectrum, they are sitting right next to one another.
The difference between fascists and socialists is about as important as the difference between Sunni and Shia muslims to a christian.
Fascism is a philosophy of governance while socialism is an economic system. Fascists often use socialism but it isn't always a package deal.
Hitler argued "Why socialize the economy when we can socialize the people." He could leave the businesses be because their owners wanted to go along with the plan to turn Germany back into a feared military super power.
Most modern socialists prefer the government taking control over trying to control the people. That's why they call themselves Democratic Socialists. They want to win elections to enforce their ideas instead of winning hearts to go along with their ideas.
"Hitler argued “Why socialize the economy when we can socialize the people.”
They still embarked on a massive nationalization campaign though. It was only in the immediate run up to the war they moved to corporatism with promises to continue nationalizing after.
Trump hasn’t been properly indoctrinated!
1. Lol, Morning Star. WTF Pluggo.
2. Mussolini was a journalist and a vociferous atheist too. I don't think Trump is those things either.
3. The quote "“It’s better to live one day like a lion” is an Italian proverb centuries older than Mussolini, and used by hundreds of other authors before and after Mussolini. I'm sure Mark Cousins knows that, but like Plugly, honesty isn't what Soros pays him for.
4. The Democratic Party's history of slavery, racism and genocide, is actually far worse than the Italian Fascists.
As always, the real Nazi is Buttplug.
1. "Fascism" is part of my Google news feed. I don't do ad hominem like you guys do but I do keep up with your fascist GOP movement.
2. Trump is almost certainly an atheist. His only deity is himself.
3. This year is the 100 year anniversary of the modern fascist movement. Italians commissioned this film to mark today's rise of the movement.
4. 19th Century Democrats were horrid. They were the right-wingers of the time.
Here - look at how Stanly Kubrick foresaw Trumpism in 'Dr Strangelove'.
Opinion: America failed to heed Stanley Kubrick’s warnings. Trump is the proof
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinion-america-failed-to-heed-stanley-kubrick-s-warnings-trump-is-the-proof/ar-BB1hjx1v?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=15a66948ca44448bb67b6f1bbca33cd5&ei=28
Liberal narratives are part of your news feed, not educational materials.
You've been given primary sourced quotations from fascists multiple times. You ignore reality because you are paid to push a narrative. You believe narratives because youre quite literally a moron.
You Trump-tards are too stupid to acknowledge what fascism really is.
Robert O. Paxton is the definitive expert on fascism and he describes it as both a political movement and political ideology.
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion
Paxton - 'The Anatomy of Fascism'
MAGA is pure fascism.
'Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity'
So, just like dedicated progressives.
You defend my claim that you rely on narratives by posting a narrative and ignoring the mentioned primary sources you’ve been given. Literally quoting a liberal social scientists who preeminent work avoided most of the self declared statements of the actual ideology he was defining.
Truly one of the most retarded here.
He focuses more on what fascists did than on what they said.
Literally from the book jacket of the book you are promoting.
Paxton has been criticized often due to his lack of use of primary sources and the book The Anatomy of Fascism was his attempt to deflect from the words of fascist leaders to absolve the left.
Again. I repeat. Youre a moron.
Here you go buddy.
The term "fascism" originated with Mussolini in 1919 and has since often been stretched to apply to almost any political group to the right of the person using it. Paxton, a historian, sets out to rescue the term from such sloppy usage, even as he acknowledges that a narrow definition is impossible. In his quest for understanding, Paxton surveys how a broad array of fascist movements has sought out followers, formed alliances, and seized and exercised power. The comparisons show great variety over time and place but also reveal characteristics that distinguish fascism from other kinds of authoritarian rule. Fascists, he concludes, were identifiable most of all by a style of political behavior that emphasized historical grievances, worshiped the cult of leadership, relied on a mass-based movement of national militants, repressed democratic liberties, and used violence as a political tool.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2004-03-01/anatomy-fascism
A) You do here exactly what Paxton has attempted to reform from use, first bold.
B) Democrats are literally defined by the 2nd bold.
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion
How does any of that exclude socialism, and not apply to today's elite and their use of LGBTQ and racial grievance mongering a la BLM?
It wholly applies to Jeff, and to some extent you, fucking Nazi.
You still don't read the shit you post, do you?
Obsessive preoccupation with victim-hood? militants working with elites? abandons democratic liberties? cults of unity?
That, my friends, is a self-own if I've ever seen one.
As with his links, he never actually read the book he tries to cite.
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline,"
The constant fearmongering about "Christian Nationalism" and "MAGA".
"humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants,"
BLM, CRT, forth wave feminism, the trans movement and the rainbow sex cult.
working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues
DEI
with redemptive violence
BLM riots, removing statues, etc.
"and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion"
FBI astroturfing, J6 Kangaroo courts, Political prosecutions of political opponents on never-before-heard-of charges.
Jeff and Buttplug are definitely fascist.
as many on here are clowning him on this, ya he couldn't have own-goaled harder than he just did
oof
Obsessive preoccupation with victim-hood?
Classic MAGA.
Every fucking Trump redneck in the trailer park thinks they are victims from a "stolen election" and some amorphous Euro meeting where capitalists go to party in Switzerland.
You have failed so hard today. Move on to using a sock. It is clear you are completely ignorant on the subject. Even your own usage of Paxton shows you to be wrong. Lol.
"Obsessive preoccupation with victim-hood?"
Classic sarcasmic.
But also Critical Race Theory, LGBTQQWTFBBQ, Black Lives Matter, the Canadian Residential School hoax, Decolonization, third and forth wave feminism, etc.
This is Open Society's fascist handiwork, Plugly.
"marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood" - progressives, check
"and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity," - progressives, double check
"effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion" - progressives, triple check
Literally the only thing missing is the nationalism.
1. “Fascism” is part of my Google news feed.
I absolutely expected this and am totally not surprised.
"I don’t do ad hominem like you guys"
Oh wow!
2. Trump is almost certainly an atheist.
Who knows, but he claims to be otherwise. You, on the other hand.
"Italians commissioned this film to mark today’s rise of the movement."
Are you dishonestly trying to infer the Italians wrote this, instead of Mark Cousins who's just another establishment progressive using it as a political soapbox?
"4. 19th Century Democrats were horrid. They were the right-wingers of the time."
What made them "right-wing", Plugly? What's the definition of "right-wing"?
In his religion right wing replaced the devil as the source of anything bad. Nothing more. Who cares todays democrats act with the same belief system as the 19th century. I mean they still push for segregation.
I'm called a right-winger all the time by progressives.
Because I oppose single-payer health care, affirmative action, gun bans, and Islamo-fascists. Progs are just abjectly stupid when it comes to their coddling of Islamists.
Yet you constantly endorse the party who pushes these ideals while worshiping Soros who funds these ideals.
Open Society fights authoritarian socialist regimes, you moron.
You realize you repeating a lie over and over doesn't keep it from being a li right?
OSF seeks to buy and implement their own form of authoritarianism. Zoros is one of the biggest funders of censorship for fucks sake. He IS the biggest funder of liberal authoritarianism such as dems in the US and left parties in Canada and Europe.
Youre simply a useful idiot.
Buttplug: "19th Century Democrats were horrid. They were the right-wingers of the time."
Also Buttplug: "I’m called a right-winger all the time"
Well now...
Lol.
But at least shrike will fool sarc.
Mussolini made Catholicism the state religion of Italy. He was actually prayed to in elementary schools as they would pray to a saint. Odd, isn't it, for an atheist.
Mussolini didn't give a crap about religion except as it could back his quest for absolute power.
Mussolini was a hard core atheist like Buttplug.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Religious_views
As a young man, he "proclaimed himself to be an atheist[196] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead."[194] He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.[194] Mussolini was superstitious; after hearing of the curse of the Pharaohs, he ordered the immediate removal of an Egyptian mummy that he had been gifted from the Palazzo Chigi.[12]
Mussolini was an admirer of Friedrich Nietzsche. According to Denis Mack Smith, "In Nietzsche he found justification for his crusade against the Christian virtues of humility, resignation, charity, and goodness."[197] He valued Nietzsche's concept of the superman, "The supreme egoist who defied both God and the masses, who despised egalitarianism and democracy, who believed in the weakest going to the wall and pushing them if they did not go fast enough."[197] On his 60th birthday, Mussolini received a gift from Hitler of a complete twenty-four volume set of the works of Nietzsche.[198]
Mussolini made vitriolic attacks against Christianity and the Catholic Church, which he accompanied with provocative remarks about the consecrated host, and about a love affair between Christ and Mary Magdalene. He denounced socialists who were tolerant of religion, or who had their children baptised, and called for socialists who accepted religious marriage to be expelled from the party. He denounced the Catholic Church for "its authoritarianism and refusal to allow freedom of thought ..." Mussolini's newspaper, La Lotta di Classe, reportedly had an anti-Christian editorial stance.[199] Mussolini once attended meetings held by a Methodist minister in a Protestant chapel where he debated the existence of God.[200]
Exactly like Plug, tbqh.
Mussolini was an admirer of American Pragmatism. He believed that since there is no universal right and wrong, which would necessarily lead to chaos and cultural disintegration, it was proper for one person to force his will upon all others - Il Duce (The Leader).
Everything he said and everything he did was for his own aggrandizement. If the words and action succeeded, it was proof that he was the proper leader. He was Pragmatism in action.
And an athiest.
You know who else claims to be a Catholic, but acts like a dictator?
Maduro, Biden, probably half of south American autboritarians actually.
The current Pope?
post-menopausal women, couples experiencing infertility, and same-sex couples
One of those is different.
So, Ronald advocates an extreme form of eugenics. Why am I not surprised?
He's a SCIENCE! Man.
From the bottom paragraph of the article...
"The sorry history of eugenics laws in the U.S., where tens of thousands were forcibly sterilized during the 20th century, should make anyone cautious about government meddling in people's reproductive choices, including the use of safe IVG."
So then this means that the author is a big fan of eugenics?
WHY do you advocate torturing and killing all of the new-born Christian babies, and then drinking their blood? AND under Government Almighty MANDATES, yet, at that!
Yes, it was a very interesting postscript... a kind of 'yeah yeah, let's be careful about Eugenics' and then a weird suggestion that ONLY Government can engage in eugenicist policies or practices, no private actors can-- and if they do, hey, it's just a private company.
So please tell us HOW BAD can shit get, from privately acting eugenicists? At the logical extreme, in the (I suspect fairly far-distant) future, young-punk tinkerers in their garages might find it "funny", leading-edge humor, to GMO-engineer a human with literal baked-in vampire blood-lust, or a man-bear-pig-dog, or some other radically different-from-our species, current species of human... And set the stage for an inter-species war! And HOW would they persuade anyone to bring to term. and raise, their... Um, monstrous or non-human, tinkered GMO quasi-humans?
As an aspiring policy wonk, some simple (but sharply LIMITED) rules should apply, IMHO... '1) No "new humans" need apply, if they can't interbreed with us, except if they are GMO humans specifically engineered FOR COLONIZING SOME OTHER MOON OR PLANET... '2) "Just say no" to deliberately crippling functionality, in order to collect disability checks, or stirring up other troubles! Hairless cats, smooshed-in pet faces, "floppy cats", etc., piss me off! WHY deliberately breed in suffering, in pets OR humans?
What else do we need, really?
LOL. "That's nice.
ShinglesA genetically-imposed dead end doesn't care!"Bailey believes in man created Intelligent Design.
JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer believes in JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer-created, intelligently designed tinfoil hate-hats that can read the minds of other people!
How many people do you know that if given the choice would choose to have a child that was mentally deficient, physically deformed, crippled and likely to die before puberty?
Genetic screening can prevent this. It is insane to play dice with the fate of your children if you don't have to.
Genetic tests are not infallible.
Name a test, beside a gravity check, that is infallible.
None are.
Look at the second sentence of what I responded to.
Looking both ways before crossing a street is a good idea. The fact that sometimes it doesn't work, does not mean that you should blindfold yourself when crossing streets.
Which was the superior person: Mike Tyson or Stephen Hawking?
For what task?
Biting off earlobes of boxing foes?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/19/business/mike-tyson-ear-shaped-edibles-trnd/index.html
Mike Tyson is selling ear-shaped cannabis-infused edibles called ‘Mike Bites’
Look at Mikey!!! He LIKES shit!!!
"Mike Bites" tested better in focus groups than "Evander Ears".
Being a human being.
Think of all the testing that can be done to pick the best offspring.
Eugenics was not about producing eggs from cells that reproduce without Females or "designer genes." infused by choice, which is what Ron Bailey is talking about. RTFA.
Well... It's about as scientifically sound, and as moral as bailey's "climate change" views
So Bailey goes with this over the Mann trial. Makes sence as it is showing Mann (like all climate change aholes) falsified evidences, and deleted data that contradicts him.
This also checks out
Manns entire model was a filtering algorithm that biased data with his presuppositions. Greater weight was applied to the records that agreed with his hypothesis. It is scientific fraud.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/01/18/watch-the-mann-steyn-trial-live/
This is the real site, not the bs public retard links to
He is also the only person in history the Nobel committee sent out a memo /cese and desist for telling people he won a Nobel prize
So, a Nobel election denier?
It would be nice if Mann was getting more attention for being such a complete dishonest hack.
Hunter business partner Rob Walker confirms what all non Biden zealots already know... China deals began under Joe's status as VP to pay out the Biden family.
https://justthenews.com/accountability/political-ethics/rob-walker-detailed-payments-biden-family-china-deal-while-joe-was
Biden to stop all natural gas experts. Yet another anti energy policy.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-halts-enormous-natural-gas-projects-victory-environmentalists?intcmp=tw_fnc
He wants to ban all natural gas?
Jokes on him I made chilli.
Haha
Remember you are the carbon that environmentalist want to eliminate
Biden to stop all natural gas experts.
You really are stupid.
No, Biden is temporarily suspending construction on NEW LNG ports.
It makes no sense because LNG burns cleaner than coal that other countries might use.
But it might make NG even cheaper here by increasing supply.
It is really an America First move.
I oppose it.
Do you know how global energy markets work shrike?
Domestic suppliers will decrease supply in response. Reducing global energy as they can’t export. This causes global prices on non LNG to increase. Supply will drop domestically. They aren’t going to take a loss retard.
Mix this with Biden's assault on gas appliances and heating, and what do you think happens?
Hold on, you said Biden was stopping all natural gas exports. Admit you were wrong and didn't know what you were talking about and then we can speculate on future prices.
Yes. He is stopping it. Are they exporting post the regulation change? You can argue pause vs stop, but it is the same fucking thing retard. Graholm literally states so in the article.
Are you at least functionally retarded shrike?
What do you think happens with a domestic crackdown on appliances that use LNG and stopping exports of LNG? What is the outcome?
Can you answer.
Liar.
You get caught is a bald-faced lie and then double down.
Let's see how the largest exporter of LNG did Friday after the news came out in the morning.
https://www.google.com/finance/quote/LNG:NYSEAMERICAN
Up $3.48. Looks like us capitalists can make more money.
You think price changes occur 24 hours after an announcement? lolololol.
Okay. Fine. Youre not even functionally retarded.
God damn. You've clowned yourself well this morning.
You get caught is a bald-faced lie and then double down.
"But how can it be a lie, The Federalist would never lie to me!" -Jesse
What lie was that, Jeffery?
Biden to stop all natural gas experts.
I thought Trump was the one who didn't believe the experts.
Remember when Trump got the US out of the Paris Accords? Good times. But mean tweets... Thank God the adults are back in the room. Thanks Reason!
How many people outside the hyper-rich, hyper-elite ever sat at a bar with a buddy and said "Man, if only I could scrape off some skin cells, get them turned into eggs, get some other guy's sperm, and then find some woman to carry the baby to term, I could finally be happy."
Though there probably lots of 55-year-old women who think, I'll only be 73 when my kid graduates, still time to travel the world.
This was akin to my thought to "men produce their own eggs".
OK, Ron, are you going to scrape your own cells, culture them, build your own transfection constructs, de-differentiate them back into eggs, isolate your own sperm, fertilize them, engineer your own womb, incubate it, and then birth it?
Otherwise, "men producing their own eggs" is a novelty act along the lines of trannies sticking frozen ketchup cubes up their vagina scar to simulate menstruation.
If this tech becomes a reality for humans, conservatives will have to seriously consider banning male masturbation. Otherwise, y’all are murdering millions of children with every jack-off.
Full retard in 1st post. Good job.
The 90s called, it wants its 'clumps of cells' joke back.
"The birth canal fairy!"
What's that on your chinny chin chin?
The Religious Right would do it even without this technology if they could. Their predecessors, John Harvey Kellogg with his Kelloggs Corn Flakes and Rev. Sylvester Graham with his Graham Crackers marketed them as anti-masturbation foods and spread falsehoods that masturbation caused blindness, hairy palms, sterility, and insanity. Kellogg was also a Eugenicist, so there is yet another Statist cause he embraced with a divine halo.
Now the good and moral same sex couples can create a fetus… The take it for an abortion!
Progressive level infinity
I can see chemjeff doing that, and then proudly wearing a "I had an abortion" t-shirt to the next ActBlue meetup.
Haley has officially picked up the endorsements of Cheney and Kizinger. Surely this will push her over the line.
I'm waiting for Bill Weld to weigh in.
So aside from one link in a Round-up post, it seems Reason has been completely ignoring recent developments in the Georgia RICO case.
https://www.newsweek.com/fani-willis-georgia-complaint-attorney-general-1864243
Even if you prefer not to linger on the salaciousness of the Fulton DA having an affair with a married man, there's still several significant things to discuss. The first is that the attorney she hired as a special prosecutor didn't go through normal channels, presumably because she had no valid reason to hire him other than her existing relationship with him.
It's not just that he'd never worked on a RICO case, but that he has no background in felony law at all, serving a magistrate judge for minor disputes like traffic tickets and a private practice that was largely civil. The reason this matters to the defendants, who otherwise might not care if the lead prosecutor is unqualified, is that it demonstrates there's a motivation here beyond pursuing the best interest of justice. The prosecutor may be financially motivated to keep the case going regardless of any merits.
That would be bad enough in itself, but the relationship between Fani Willis and the prosecutor means she's directly benefitting from this financial incentive. She's essentially created a revenue stream she can access for herself by paying her lover and having him use that money and spend it on her. She gets to live large on the prosecution and hide behind the political shield of going after an unpopular, high-profile defendant. Meanwhile she's taking trips on cruise liners that are seemingly being paid for by Fulton County taxpayers. It doesn't help that she's playing the race card when the question is about an attorney she's paying who has no background in felony law that she also happens to be sleeping with. (Until she played the race card, I did not know for a fact that Nathan Wade was black)
Another thing that's come forward, however, is that the special prosecutor billed for several meetings he had with the White House and White House special counsel. Fani Willis vehemently denied that she was coordinating with Biden or with the White House in any manner, and now there are records to dispute that. It makes it harder to deny that there's a significant political motivation when the prosecution is meeting with the president about a prosecution of his chief political adversary. And the link I just shared is about her office refusing to comply with open records requests concerning those meetings.
Fulton County Commission has also been on Fani Willis' case for her failure to keep proper financial accountings. They're trying to grasp just how much the prosecution of Trump is costing the county. Because it's not just the attorney fees, it's the cost of security, of essentially locking down the street and securing the courthouse any time there's a hearing because it involves high-profile individuals. Even if they agree this is a case that needs to be tried, they still have an interest in making sure the money is being used efficiently and not being wasted. There's certainly some billing irregularities in which Mr. Wade billed for 24 hours of work on single days. He would doubtless argue that that is multiple days' work that he simply listed a single billing date for, yet that is an improper practice that deserves some examination.
All of this points to some serious improprieties happening with the prosecution of a high-profile political figure in Georgia. There's some potential irony that she may be engaging in criminal activity while she's pursuing alleged criminality.
They also won't discuss the attack on 1A in NYC defamation case against Trump. They even supported the defamation case against Fox. Insane amounts of money without care damages are falsified and courts were pre judging the evidence. It is one of Reasons biggest failures the last few years. And they've had many.
Reason already ran an article "the libritarian case against free speech."
They have been sub-human totalitarian garbage wearing rean like a skin suit since then.
Remember when Sullum told us it was totally reasonable for a jury to decide that Trump had sexually assaulted a woman three decades ago? A woman who didn't know when it happened? A woman who never reported a crime? A woman with a history of fantasizing about being raped? Can't wait for his defense of an 80 some million judgement because Trump denied the accusation.
I liked the part where she testified that she's getting death threats, but doesn't have to demonstrate any evidence of any death threats she's received. Also, she said she deleted them so the defense doesn't get to see them.
Oh, and also, she seemingly never reported any of these death threats to police, so there's been no investigation of any of them. There's now a building history of this woman supposedly being the victim of crimes she never tells police about.
Just the fact part of the payments were based in 3rd party statements is mind boggling.
Maybe she can sue the threateners 30 years from now for another 80 million.
She literally deleted the supposed messages after they were under subpeona. Judge told jurors to disregard that fact.
Even more came out. She ended up claiming it was 1994. She had the dress she was assaulted in. It was featured in the New Yorker. Dress wasn't available for many more years.
Isn't getting someone pregnant half the fun though?
Maybe even 100% of the fun.
Well, with IVG, people could still have sex for pleasure. In fact between IVG, bulletproof birth comtrol for both mem and women, and curing all STDs, we could have us a Sexual Revolutiom 2.0, this time done righf.
Sex could be like The Country's Best Yogurt TCBY..."All of the Pleasure, None of the Guilt!" (TM.)
🙂
😉
Just need to cure woman of not being horny often enough.
This technology will fail for the same reason that cloning technology from 20 years ago failed.
The kids will want to wear black all the time and ask that your refer to them as “Damien”?
https://nest-expressed.com/2015/08/04/14-signs-your-child-is-the-antichrist/
1. When your baby says “dada” or “
mamadada,” its face morphs into a perfect replica of its father’s ormother’sfather's, respectivelyI was thinking shortened life expectancy - clones from adult cells live about half as long. Exotic cancers.
Third graders in NYC are being taught this
.
“The bombs in the air go whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, all through the skies. From every river to every sea the people cry, cry, cry. Free Palestine till the wheels on the tanks fall off.”
Wtf.
https://twitter.com/LevineJonathan/status/1751285925101891641
WTF indeed. Who the fuck is in charge of NYC public schools?
Apparently it is from a group called Woke Kindergarten that activist teachers use. So the left?
Democrats
What would be really cool is if people could literally produce eggs and no one would have to be bothered with pregnancy.
So you would prefer if people were nonhuman?
How about if humans were marsupials instead? If you want an abortion just don't let the embryo make it to your pouch. Birth will be a lot easier when it happens so early.
Screw that. Shadow clones or GTFO.
Anyone interested in a good recipe for omelets?
This is unlikely to go anywhere until artificial wombs become a reality. Face it, you still need a woman to carry the fertilized egg to term and give birth. That's the failure point for all reproduction. Having a fit over this is pointless. It's an interesting scientific discovery. That's all.
Had this but been known six Presidents ago, John John Quincy Quincy Adams Adams could have turned 35, and trounced Trump in the New Hampshire primary by now.
*sigh*
By the by (and I’m deadly serious… there is no sarcasm here whatsoever), Ron Bailey may have just written THE most transphobic article Reason has ever produced.
There's barely a single sentence in this entire article that isn't, in some way or another, transphobic.
Everyone knows men can get pregnant.
No one knows men can get pregnant.
Because men can't get pregnant.
Now you are being transphobic 🙂
Even though this technology would be a boon to Transgendered people.
*Sigh!* Some people literally just don't know which side their bread is buttered on.
I butter my bread on both sides - over heat.
In vitro gametogenesi could allow same-sex couples, post-menopausal women, and couples experiencing infertility to have children.
Yea, but why. What are the merits to a same-sex parenting situation when that is by definition abusive to children, or a woman over (on average) the age of 50 trying to raise newborn children?
You know, you can stick a fork into a wall socket too. But just because you can doesn't mean there's any valid reason why you should. Or why anyone should be empowering you to do so.
Inherent abuse by same-sex parents not found in evidence.
Also not categorically true about women over 50., especially since IVG would not have any greater riak of producing mentally infirm children.
Start again.
There are no "same sex parents". Every human being has a mother and a father. Intentionally severing the relationship between a child and one or both of its parents so that the other people can cosplay parenting is inherently abusive.
Men and women are not the same. Men can't be mothers. Women can't be fathers. Intentionally depriving a child of both a mother and a father is inherently abusive.
Nothing about same-sex couples would necessarily preclude a child from knowing and having contact with either the Father or the Mother, depending on the sex of the same-sex couple.
That is not how I have observed it happening; and, no, "knowing and having contact" is not the same as being raised in a household where mother and father are present and in a committed relationship.
The intent is not to have a "3rd wheel" biological parent of the opposite sex.
"Not necessarily" surely does not mean it is the norm or even happens.
What are the merits to a same-sex parenting situation when that is by definition abusive to children, or a woman over (on average) the age of 50 trying to raise newborn children?
Look, just because you think it is "abusive" doesn't make it so.
Historically, the kind of middle class mid-century American family you imagine simply isn't the norm among H. sapiens.
Is the middle-class mid-century American family the best definition of it to date? Has that not proven, in spades, to bear the most fruit across all measurements?
If anything, history teaches us that post-WWII family structures produce entitled, obese, financially irresponsible socialists.
Historically, the kind of middle class mid-century American family you imagine simply isn’t the norm among H. sapiens.
...
If anything, history teaches us that post-WWII family structures produce entitled, obese, financially irresponsible socialists.
What a TDS-style take. Both can't be true. Either the nuclear (2 parents, 2 kids) or near-nuclear (2 parents, 2-12 kids) family propelled post-modern society to its apogee and decadent near destruction or it was a niche construct that nobody historically has practiced.
Sounds like the same idiocy that struggles/struggled with gay sex homosexual marriage not being the norm and/or conflated people saying "Forced acceptance of homosexuality is symbolic of abundance traversing into decadence." with "Homophobes claim homosexuality will bring an end to Western Civlization."
I mean presumably, your argument even if you are arguing in defense of gay marriage, is the explicit product of a post-WWII family structure, is it not?
Both can’t be true. Either the nuclear (2 parents, 2 kids) or near-nuclear (2 parents, 2-12 kids) family propelled post-modern society to its apogee and decadent near destruction or it was a niche construct that nobody historically has practiced.
You're suffering from false dichotomies and from single factor analysis. In fact, there are many different child rearing arrangements with many different outcomes. I'm not arguing that one is superior to the other, AT is trying to (and failing).
I mean presumably, your argument even if you are arguing in defense of gay marriage, is the explicit product of a post-WWII family structure, is it not?
I don't give a f*ck about gay marriage. I'm simply saying that people who claim that the nuclear family is the historical norm and that any other form of raising children is "abusive" are believing in a fairy-tale version of history.
Inherent abuse by same-sex parents not found in evidence.
You seriously think that intentionally depriving a child of a paternal or maternal influence and role model in their upbringing isn't abusive? This isn't like a widow where they have no choice because fate dealt them a garbage hand and now they have to cope with the issue - this is INTENTIONAL. This is INTENTIONALLY forcing a child to grow up that way, for literally no justifiable reason whatsoever.
Also not categorically true about women over 50., especially since IVG would not have any greater riak of producing mentally infirm children.
We're not talking about infirm children. We're talking about biological motherhood past its natural and healthy timeframe. Again, this isn't like a mom who died so grandma steps in to raise a second generation because that's the rough hand that life dealt. This is intentionally creating those circumstances for no justifiable reason. And the one bearing the onus of it is a child.
Why do that? For what sick, selfish, and perverted reason would anyone WANT either of these things for a child?
See above and learn how to reply to the right post.
You seriously think that intentionally depriving a child of a paternal or maternal influence and role model in their upbringing isn’t abusive?
The two parent mother-and-father model of family is hardly a historical norm. Many women died in childbirth. Many men were away at sea or killed in wars. Men had multiple wives. Etc. Kids grew up with only women, or only men, or in a variety of other arrangements.
And when avoidable, we avoided it.
This here is talking about doing so intentionally. Why?
To what possible end?
There is no "we". The decision whether someone reproduces and how is an individual and personal one. It simply isn't any of your business.
You know, I might not mind crash-landing or having an auto breakdown in your Stepford after all.
All I ask is please keep the Karens off my back while I do my salvage and towing and I'll be on my way.
🙂
😉
I assure you, you wouldn't be happy getting anywhere near me: you're an a--hole.
Again, this can’t be the case.
The majority of men didn’t die in war. The majority of women didn’t die in childbirth. The majority of men weren’t away at sea. The majority of a nation’s population wasn’t at war for a majority of it’s history. Yes, men had multiple wives. They were, across several societies, notably exceptional as such and, by and large, for every woman one man had as a wife, there was one father and one mother that produced them. Any nation where the men did predominantly die in a war and the women did predominantly die in childbirth didn't survive as a nation very long.
This is born out over thousand-year mitochondrial DNA retrospective studies where they can know generally within a generation how many siblings or partners people are removed from one another. If it were an abject free-for-all or even majority/mostly, it wouldn’t work. Everyone would be everyone else’s half-brothers and sisters and any family trees would be more cyclic and directed rather than acyclic and undirected. This is seen in frogs and fishes and other invertebrates.
Again, this is getting into Elizabeth Nolan Brown “We have to defend women’s right to abort to avoid them dying in alleys with coat hangers in their hoohahs… even if that means we have to defend back alley doctors working with nothing more than coat hangers.” territory.
Again, this can’t be the case.
Look, you are making the absurd claim that the nuclear family is the biological norm for our species and that any other family structure amounts to “child abuse”. Penguins function that way out of biological necessity, humans do not.
My position isn’t that any other specific family structure was predominant, but simply that many different family structures have existed throughout history and in different–and successful–societies. It is ridiculous to claim that any child rearing arrangement other than a post-WWII American nuclear family amounts to “abuse”.
The majority of men didn’t die in war. The majority of women didn’t die in childbirth. The majority of men weren’t away at sea.
DNA studies show that about 90% of human females have reproduced historically, while only 40% of human males have reproduced historically. That alone shows you that your ideas about family structures have to be fiction.
Again, this is getting into Elizabeth Nolan Brown “We have to defend women’s right
I deny that women have a right to an abortion, just like I deny that children have a right to be raised in any particular kind of family arrangement.
The “territory” you are getting into is that you want the state to encode into law your particular beliefs about optimal family structure and child rearing. That is a foolish endeavor, because if you try this, I guarantee you: your viewpoints will lose out. As far as the state is concerned, handing your children off to the state for indoctrination at age 3 is the optimal choice.
Reason likes its babies the way it likes its steaks and viruses: Grown in a lab.
Nowhere in the comments do I see a concern for the morality of doing this. Our understanding of the intricacy of human biology is primitive. To this day, no one can truly explain why the China virus (yeah, covid-19 is the fucking China virus...and probably funded partly by America) killed some, and did not kill others. Ditto for cancer and a host of other maladies.
My point: We are like toddlers with no knowledge playing with matches, gasoline, hydrogen and a flint. There is great danger here, particularly when you pair this technology with emerging AI development.
Continue the foundational research, yes. But have lengthy discussions on the morality of what we do here.
That's the fundamental problem with eugenics. We have no clue how to create a "better" human being.
https://reason.com/2024/01/27/what-if-men-could-produce-their-own-eggs/?comments=true#comment-10418263
Well, speaking as one who has and is genetically at risk for diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, sleep apnea, kidney and liver failure, and cancer, I would say eliminating all of these from the face of the Earth would be pretty damn "better."
But, of course, Eugenics didn't address any of these. It was solely reductionistic and focused on behavioral problems and social ills which they associated with physical phenotypes and had zero actual knowledge of genetics and DNA.
And someone with all those problems could still be a highly accomplished and valuable human being, while someone who lived a long life in good health could be loser. We simply don't know how to pick the winners and losers in the genetic lottery, despite our knowledge of DNA.
And someone with all those problems could still be a highly accomplished and valuable human being
The problem is that in a system of socialized medicine, we can't make such tradeoffs rationally: there are no price signals.
But with good health and an expanded lifespan, people can accomplish more and do better even more.
Genetic Engineering could use CRISPR to eliminate all the conditions I have and am at risk for, plus HIV/AIDS, Sickle Cell, Tay-Sachs, Fragile X, and many more...
And Genetic Engineering could use cloning and IVG to provide new tissues and organs with zero rejection, perhaps even whole cryogenic "body shops" of reserve parts to replace parts as needed, making lifespans possibly indefinite...
All done at the genetic and molecular level, all without sterilizing, regimenting, enslaving, mangling, or murdering a single human life....
...If only no one gets in the way.
And thereby preventing the births of people we might have regarded as flawed, but who nevertheless would have had the potential for great achievement. As I said, we don't know how to make a "better" human being. Those of great worth have often had defects.
First of all, there is no evidence I know of that the population of people with genetic flaws is genetically better endowed for great achievement than the population at large.
Furthermore, like it or not, we are messing massively with human evolution through medicine, by eliminating numerous mechanisms that in the past would have eliminated individuals from the population.
The state should not make decisions on who lives or dies; the state should not make decisions about the value of a year of human life. But that cuts both ways: it also means that if the market determines that a condition is uninsurable or does not warrant development of a drug/treatment, then that condition remains untreated, instead of getting subsidized by tax payers.
That’s the fundamental problem with eugenics. We have no clue how to create a “better” human being.
Women have been engaging in "eugenics" for as long as the human species has existed: mate selection is a primary driver of human evolution.
What if pigs could fly?
(of course, it is a lab 'producing' these 'eggs', not a man in any reproductive biology sense of the word)
We'd be worried about pig shit on our cars.
Science and Technology apparently has the goal of making women completely unnecessary and superfluous. As if the only things women can contribute to society are not any of the things that differentiates us from men.
What is a woman, again?
Actually, since we don't have artificial wombs, this is more likely to make men unnecessary and superfluous, at least as far as wealthy, privileged, government-supported radical feminists are concerned.
So far, the strongest arguments against this are "Ick" Factor, "T-r-r-r-r-r-ADITION!", and God-Talk.
Anybody got anything better?
I think you got more responses than that and you are just a disingenuous hack. Humans being biologically heterosexual reproducers is an argument from biology.
Gripe against reality all you want. It doesn’t make you less religious if your god is science.
If that's all you're seeing, then your reading comprehension is poor.
It solves a non-problem while feeding and causing others.
Perhaps even solo reproduction in which single men could produce both sperm and eggs that combined would result in them having biological children in the future.
Elementary biology tells you that that is a very bad idea.
The only reasonable offspring you can safely derive from a single individual is a clone, and we already have the technology to do that.
Yeah, but soon we'll be able to either torture men with pregnancy, insult women who didn't get a choice, cater to the whims of retarded trannies, or all three! Progress!
We can already insult women (and do). Whether you get pregnant or cater to the whims of trannies is your own personal choice; hey, whatever turns you on (assuming you're a man in the first place).
For every cloned sheep produced by the same process as Dolly, hundreds of attempts end in miscarriage, and even the successes don’t live much past puberty. Cloning humans would have at least as bad a failure rate, probably for centuries before the bugs were solved. I don’t think the public would permit that situation to last long enough to reach a technical solution.
My worry, which was not even mentioned in the article, is that natural sperm and eggs are generated by very refined processes that don’t stress them. And after a sperm swims to find and fertilize an egg, its used mitochondria are *destroyed* rather than allowing them become part of the embryo.
By contrast, this new method hacks a somatic cell that has God-only-knows how many miles on it. It’s not just telomere shortening from rounds of cell division either — There’s oxidative stress, epigenetic modification, DNA damage, senescence (programmed aging) — And that’s all going to be passed on to the child.
If you ever wondered how generation after generation after generation can produce youth, a cell line that is effectively immortal, it is because our germ-line cells are protected from all that crap that happens to somatic cells in the process of handling reactive chemicals.
So I would like to read how these engineers are going to rejuvenate the somatic source cells in *every* way, and if they don’t have answers, then the practice should be banned in humans until they do.
Clones derived from somatic cells have normal life spans and health, so it doesn't seem to be a problem.
We all need to re-read Brave New World by Huxley.
IVG addresses a real problem — the fact that in a society where women are free to choose careers other than motherhood, too few choose motherhood to prevent the Great Replacement (which will take away that choice from women by replacing our culture and constitution with a Muslim or similar theocracy).
If IVG can give us back a high enough birth rate to preserve our population lead over the hordes, bring it on! It will relieve women of a burden most of them don't want to take up. If it can’t or doesn’t, then we all have a worse set of choices: surrender to societal genocide, or impose at least part of it on ourselves by legislating women’s status back to what it was in 1900.
I do not hold that libertarianism requires surrender to societal genocide. YMMV.