Trump Wouldn't Be the First Non-Confederate Barred From Office by the 14th Amendment
The weird story of Victor Berger, the Espionage Act, and "Shoeless" Joe Jackson.

Last week's ruling by the Colorado Supreme Court that former President Donald Trump is ineligible to hold federal office under the terms of the 14th Amendment is a nearly unprecedented situation.
Nearly.
Per Section 3 of that constitutional amendment, passed in the wake of the Civil War, former elected officials guilty of having engaged "in insurrection or rebellion against" the federal government are forbidden from holding office. It is obviously a provision meant to keep former Confederates from returning to Congress after the war, but the Colorado Supreme Court has determined that Trump's role in instigating the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol meets the vague standards outlined set forth in the amendment. On Thursday, Maine Secretary of State Shanna Bellows announced that Trump would be removed from the state's primary ballot because he is ineligible for office under the terms outlined in the 14th Amendment.
Since the end of Reconstruction, Trump is just the second person ruled ineligible for federal office due to that provision.
The first: Victor Berger, who is perhaps slightly more well known for being the first Socialist elected to Congress.
Berger was born in Austria and immigrated to the United States as a young man. In 1910, he won a seat in Congress representing Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and served a single two-year term. After being defeated in 1912, Berger remained active in left-wing politics and opposed America's entry into the First World War. In 1918, he was convicted (along with several other Socialist organizers) of having violated the Espionage Act of 1917, which effectively criminalized any criticism of the war effort.
Officially, Berger was found guilty of 26 "disloyal acts" related to a series of editorials published by the Milwaukee Leader, a paper Berger helped run, arguing against America's involvement in the war.
Despite that conviction—or perhaps because of it—Berger was elected to Congress again in 1918. His campaign called for the country to respect free speech and freedom of the press, and he continued to push for an "early, general, lasting and democratic peace." (Naturally, he also campaigned for a variety of typically terrible Socialist ideas too, like the nationalization of industries.)
Here's where Section 3 of the 14th Amendment popped up. Congress refused to seat Berger when he showed up to work in January 1919, on the grounds that his Espionage Act conviction was tantamount to engaging in insurrection against the country. The vote was nearly unanimous, 311-1, with the lone dissenting vote cast by a Wisconsin Republican.
A special election was held in December 1919 to fill the still-vacant seat, and Berger won again—this time earning even more votes than he had a year earlier. Again, a majority in Congress voted to block Berger from taking his seat.
There was yet another twist to come, and a final bit of trivia embedded in all this: The federal district judge who had overseen Berger's Espionage Act trial was Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis.
Baseball fans may recall Landis' involvement in another (arguably more famous) decision. After leaving the federal bench in 1920, Landis was hired as the first commissioner of Major League Baseball and charged by the teams' owners with investigating allegations of match-fixing in the 1919 World Series scandal. Though the players involved in the scandal were acquitted in court, Landis exercised his own discretion as commissioner to impose a lifetime ban on eight players—including Chicago White Sox superstar "Shoeless" Joe Jackson.
Landis was known for being ill-tempered and prejudiced, particularly against German immigrants. According to a brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court seeking to overturn Berger's conviction, Landis once said "If anybody has said anything worse about the Germans than I have, I would like to know it so I can use it."
During Berger's trial, Landis was openly hostile. He declared that Germans "are reeking with disloyalty" and condemned all pacifists as having "the interests of the enemy at heart." After reviewing the case, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that Landis should have recused himself from the case due to prejudice and threw out Berger's conviction on the grounds that he did not receive a fair trial.
Vindicated, Berger again ran for Congress in 1922 and won. This time he was seated without controversy, and he subsequently won reelection in 1924 and 1926.
As a precedent for the current situation involving Trump and the 14th Amendment, Berger's case probably has little value. For one, Berger plainly didn't engage in an insurrection, and the First Amendment should have prevented any conviction for the supposed crime of writing anti-war editorials or publishing Socialist opinions in a newspaper. What happened to Berger says a lot about the awfulness of the Espionage Act and about how war encourages governments to stomp all over civil liberties. But it doesn't say much about how the court should view the 14th Amendment, particularly since the Supreme Court never took up that issue in Berger's case—as it likely will with Trump's.
Still, there's one legal angle that Berger's case demonstrates. Gerard Magliocca, a law professor at Indiana University, told Milwaukee Magazine earlier this year that Berger's case shows that a series of post-Civil War amnesty laws did not fully nullify the 14th Amendment's disqualification clause. That will likely be relevant when, or if, the U.S. Supreme Court or other state courts tackle the question of Trump's eligibility to be president.
Like it was in Berger's day, the notion that banning certain candidates from office is necessary to protect the country from unpopular ideas seems misguided. And wielding Section 3 of the 14th Amendment against political opponents seems certain to worsen the dangerous "will-to-power" politics infecting both major political parties at the moment.
In any case, as we veer into what's sure to be one of the most bonkers years in American political history, maybe there's a small bit of comfort to be gleaned from the knowledge this situation isn't entirely unprecedented.
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Trump sure has someone scared.
A shame that the U.S. has to join the list of countries that disqualify candidates because the ruling party is afraid that they’ll lose.
Well as the unelected SOS in Maine has patiently explained, she really had no choice in the matter. It was a painful choice but it was her solemn duty.
The testimony of virtually every Nazi war criminal.
Shenna Bellows is a useful idiot. With the idiot part stressed.
She's a political hack who was overwhelmingly defeated in her bid as a US Senator, and saw an opportunity to get her named in the news. She wants to be governor and, if successful, she'll probably try to run for Senate again afterward. She's motivated by partisanship and personal ambition and no sense of considered scruples.
Really a stunningly arrogant person. She made it perfectly clear that she wanted to get it done before the Supreme Court had a chance to rule. Obviously for the media coverage.
And as evidence, she gave two interviews to national news networks within hours of issuing her ruling. She was absolutely lathered up over the potential press. Beyond that, it's cowardly opportunistic-she likely wouldn't have made this ruling absent the Colorado court getting there first and granting an implicit "permission." You can see from her scheduling how she was waiting for a ruling from Colorado before issuing her own. They heard oral arguments on December 6, she heard her petition on December 15. Then she issued a deadline for exhibits: December 19, the day that Colorado's supreme court issued their ruling.
It's gross partisan hackery, and she was looking for someone else to act first in order to gauge the political landscape before acting. She deserves to receive a faceful of vomit from every voter in the entire state.
When she would do radio interviews, she would often utter “At the end pf the day…”
At the end of the day, Bellows is a partisan dolt.
You misspelled "buckshot".
"She deserves to receive a faceful of vomit from every voter in the entire state."
Sarc's from Maine, but is it possible to get him drunk enough to puke anymore?
The difference is that the JUSTICES OF A COURT have some real immunity as their decision is about LAW. Bellows, however has only very limited immunity and since there was no criminal charge of treason against TRUMP in any court, and criminal charge of insurrection in any court, and since Trump was not on trial in Colorado for such, NO COURT CAN FIND HIM GUILTY OF SUCH.
Bellows has opened her mouth in a public arena, specifically stating that Trump is GUILTY OF THOSE THINGS. This is a LIE, it is libel and slander and done for POLITICAL AND PERSONAL BENEFIT OF BELLOWS. She has violated the RODNEY KING ACT, by taking away a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of Trump (to run for office) and slandering him in the process for her personal and political benefit. She is a CRIMINAL in my opinion (notice how I made it an opinion not a fact?).
IF she ever talked with her counter parts in Maine or Minnesota at all, then there is a RICO ACT Conspiracy...to overthrow the vote in advance of the vote, to unlawfully interfere in elections....exactly the accusation made against Trump by the DEMS WHO DID INTERFERE IN THE ELECTION in at least Three major states.
No criminal conviction for insurrection is required for the 14th Amendment to apply. It has been applied almost exclusively in the past without relying on any such criminal convictions, so why would that suddenly become a requirement now?
Obvioulyasteamingpileofshit, please fuck off and die.
Yeah but she’s sure getting her 15 minutes on all the propaganda networks.
Trump sure has someone scared
Likewise in 2016, and no-one suffered any consequences from their Crossfire Hurricane bullshit.
Voila, here we are today with the state courts pulling their shit, knowing there will be no consequences.
What a lovely team the state courts and DOJ make when it comes to influencing US presidential elections to keep the incumbent party in power.
This is why a Nuremberg like trial is needed for this and Covid with real penalties.
Our gargantuan or age friend will prevail. Once he is re-elected, may death come quickly to his enemies.
This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot. On January 6, 2025, Vice President Harris, acting in her role as President of the US Senate, will follow the Trump Administration dictum that a Vice President has the authority to decide which slate of electors to count and she will not count any electors from Red States, thus giving President Biden his re-election win.
For one, Berger plainly didn't engage in an insurrection, and the First Amendment should have prevented any conviction for the supposed crime of writing anti-war editorials or publishing Socialist opinions in a newspaper.
Just like the First Amendment surely prohibits an overly broad definition of incitement.
The Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have a long history of twisting the words of the Constitution, ignoring the Constitution, and abandoning its responsibility to rule on important Constitutional issues that renders your use of the word "surely" in that context moot. The Humpty Dumpty quotation from "Alice" comes to mind.
Quite true.
Which is why now is the time for the Supreme Court to remain faithful to its judicial philosophy and interpret the 14th Amendment's Section 3 in the way it would have been understood at the time it was ratified.
Now is not the time for the Supreme Court to ignore the original meaning and substitute its own, "for the good of the country".
"...Now is not the time for the Supreme Court to ignore the original meaning and substitute its own, “for the good of the country”...."
Obviouslyfullofshit, now is not the time to legislate from the bench, but as Obviouslyfullofshit, this will come as a surprise.
The first amendment is appropriate here but it isnt alone.
Regardless of how terrible the Espionage act was/is, it was the law at hand. What matters most here is the one thing that changed between congress refusing him his seat and quietly seating him: he went from convicted to not convicted. It doesn’t matter that the court did not take up the constitutional issue, just as it doesn’t matter that Berger clearly didn’t engage in insurrection.
What matters is that he was convicted and the Congress recognized that as disqualification to hold office. After he was no longer convicted, they didn’t continue to deny him his seat. This clearly indicates that congress knew he had to be convicted- because the disqualification is due to committing a specific type of crime.
The other main takeaway is that despite a conviction he was not refused ballot access even after congress refused to seat him, nor was there an attempt to do so that I hVe found. This also tells us that even when lawfully executing the refusal of office it did not mean he could not run even with a conviction under an espionage act.
It has nothing to do with what he or Trump did or did bot do. It is about what they were and are not: convicted.
Trump Wouldn't Be the First Non-Confederate Barred
Donnie isn't the first thug to be charged with RICO crimes in Georgia either. He joins Young Thug in criminal history.
Have you ever been charged with anything butthurt?
Maybe something involving children?
It’s too bad none of his victim’s have executed him yet.
You were banned for posting links to child porn.
I'm curious if Reason just scrubbed their servers or if they reported him to the cops first.
Iirc, Shrike once won some reader question contest. Given the stances of some of the editors on grooming, I wouldn’t be surprised if they just purged the post and moved on to some article supporting grown men to have random kids sots in their panty clad laps while a book was read.
Do you remember what the question was, and what SPB/SPB2's "winning" answer was? Just curious. I've only started posting in the last couple months, but have been reading the comments since 2020. I can't remember the last time he had a substantive post about anything that wasn't just lies or "misconstrued" evidence (like links) that actually demonstrate the opposite of what he claims. Was he always like this?
Sarc has become an annoying troll, but I recall a few years ago he at least would also have some good posts. Now he just jumps at any opportunity to play the victim and blast Trump (even if the article has nothing to do with Trump).
Pour Sarckles. Booze kills brain cells.
I don't think it is the alcohol. (Even though he's annoying as fuck now, I hope he is able to continue sobriety or get back to sobriety if he's fallen off the wagon again.)
I believe he said he was struggling with alcoholism back then too, so it wouldn't explain the shift. He would still troll sometimes back in 2020, from my possibly flawed memory, but it wasn't almost all he did in these comments. He'd have some good things to say about libertarian principles, and a few trollish posts. Now it's so rare for him to post anything other than the banal, unclever pablum he repeats ad nauseum.
Like being outside the bathroom in middle school.
Spend a lot of time there? Explains a lot. You should see a psychiatrist.
I wandered in here about a decade ago. It might have even been before that. Would be good to see if this rings a bell with say RMac or Jesse.
Trump broke him in 2015. He absolutely lost his mind at that point, began supporting every state created attack against Trump, destroying is self proclaimed principles in the process.
He has never been funny or understood sarcasm though.
The extent if his libertarianism is simply posting quotes from other people. He has never seemingly read their essays or books though. So has never internalized the philosophy. Lazy pseudo intellectualism.
You sure hope it was the former, don't you!
You and all the other admitted "CP clickers", who claim to have knowledge of the content Shrike allegedly linked to (thus necessarily downloading a copy of whatever it was to their own computers via the means of interstate commerce).
The likelihood is, if Shrike actually did what you claim he did, he wouldn't have just had to change his name, he would have been (and should have been) arrested. The same with each and every one of you.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Attention: Democrats!
Trump is weak. You beat him in 2020. You should be able to beat him now.
Throwing him off the ballot seems like overkill.
The American people deserve the shit-show they are going to get in 2024.
Americans do not deserve the anti co stotutoonal lawfare of your team. You just enjoy it because it is your team and you're not a libertarian. You want the party bought and paid for by Soros.
It’s not like his party has kept Republican presidential candidates off the ballot before.
They've kept plenty of their non party chosen candidates off prior. Obama is famous for getting dem opponents kicked off. In 20 and 22 they also worked very well at getting green candidates kicked off.
They became quite proficient at it during Reconstruction.
I was thinking of that dude in the silly hat that ran in 1860.
Well, was he prevented in those states, or didn't bother? If you look at the totals for all of the candidates in that election, others were missing in other states as well.
Hey Kiddie Raper, you should be careful when wishing for people to get what they deserve. You might not like how that works out for you if you get what’s YOU deserve.
He really thinks that the fix is a fait accompli and he'll be untouchable when the kingdom of Soros arrives. A lot of revolutionaries in the gulags or Jacobins waiting for Mme. Guillotine had formerly figured the same.
The devils break their own tools when they're done with them, Pluggo. You'll get no reward.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
turd lies. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides
Throwing him off the ballot is because they don’t think they can fortify in such a way as to not be completely obvious this time around.
Why would that bother them?
Democrats have always lied to us. That is their MO.
However, in this case, the question is whether the 14th Amendment in fact bars Trump from again holding the office of the President of the United States. That is not a question which depends on Democrats; it depends on the federal judiciary doing its duty.
It does, I suspect that in the same way the Republican candidates are reluctant to take Trump on directly, they are secretly hoping for SCOTUS to rule against Trump.
Nevertrumpers are cucks who enjoy getting fucked in the ass.
Notice how Congress refused to seat him, rather than any one or several states deciding he couldn't run?
Gee, one might almost say that's precedent.
Yeah he stood for election and the House refused to seat him. It's not even clear that they relied on the 14th from the article. The House just expelled a member a couple of weeks ago. Section 3 wasn't even mentioned.
Santos is a closer comparison than trump is.
Being a lying snake has never been a reason to be thrown out of Congress. If it were, there would not be a single member of the House or the Senate left.
May not be a good reason but congress can expel or refuse to seat any member at any time for any reason or none at all. The executive and courts have no jurisdiction.
If it were, Biden would never have gotten past his first term.
Boehm's reluctantly twisting what was done to Berger and 14A to make his article. What a piece of steaming crap.
He's actually not. The justification and reasoning at the time was that Berger had previously been a representative, found guilty of Sedition, and therefore was disqualified under the 14th Amendment. They had a special select committee review the evidence and come to a finding, and then refused to seat him on 14A grounds.
It's in the Congressional record.
Then I stand corrected on the use of 14A, but Boehm is still a reluctant steaming pile (for many other reasons).
I just think it's extremely informative as a historical perspective. It's been remembered, as is that whole period, as a gross infringement on rights and perhaps the nadir of 1st Amendment protections in the United States. It took one of the worst Supreme Court rulings on the First Amendment, Schenk v. United States, to allow the Espionage Act to be enforced.
It also shows how the country, even in such a politically charged and anti-speech environment, wasn't disqualifying candidates from running based on dubious 14th Amendment claims, but left enforcement up to Congress, and it shows that Congress only acted in response to a criminal conviction with due process. Then they reversed themselves as the conviction was reversed, since that was an infringement on due process.
But Schenk gave us that wonderful yardstick of how much a person doesn't care about free speech! If they repeat the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" line, we automatically know they're full of shit.
Plus, 14A doesn’t apply to the presidency.
I find this point very arguable. I've heard both sides of it. To me, it's the weakest argument against disqualification. Much stronger is the fact that Jan. 6 was by no means an insurrection, that Trump did not incite it, and that state courts have no authority to enforce provisions that are in the province of Congress.
All good points. The whole thing is a sham. Just like everything the democrats do.
You can read up on. Their reason for holding a special committee was that they considered him disqualified under the 14th amendment. The neat thing about it being a Congressional hearing is that we keep records of those things.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPREC-CANNONS-V6/html/GPO-HPREC-CANNONS-V6-10.htm
They called it a 14th Amendment disqualification.
Well I stand corrected on the 14th amendment issue. But again, they could have refused to seat him on any pretense.
And on the issue of congress keeping records, the J6 committee has destroyed the transcripts of all of the depositions they took in their "bipartisan" investigation.
Yeah, that committee had more than a few abnormalities to it. It's problematic. But the courts are like, "Hey, it's Congress, we can trust their findings!"
And Berger had a conviction. Trump has nothing.
Here's where Section 3 of the 14th Amendment popped up. Congress refused to seat Berger when he showed up to work in January 1919, on the grounds that his Espionage Act conviction was tantamount to engaging in insurrection against the country.
The presidency is also not included in 14A. But Boehm is a lying subnormal Marxist. So he doesn’t care.
I noticed another rather interesting detail: he was tried and convicted of a crime. It was only after the conviction that he was barred from taking his seat. And after the conviction was overturned, Congress didn't follow the 14th Amendment procedure to re-qualify him with a 2/3rds vote, they seemingly decided that his disqualification was never valid because the conviction was bogus.
It sure seems like Congress back then believed it was Congress' authority to make 14th Amendment calls and they needed a substantive finding in order to initiate it.
It's also useful as a historical glimpse into how this provision has only ever been against someone using their first amendment rights to say something the government didn't want them to say.
It's Novel Construction 2: Constitution Boogaloo.
It's actually insane that they think a clause written expressly to curtail the freedoms of Reconstruction states can be used by the states in any form or fashion. It's patently obvious that was not the text or intent of that clause.
I don't even need to notice the conviction of Berger to realize that this is not what the 14th amendment was about. Congress literally told us what it was for back when it was written, and it was expressly the opposite of what is being said today.
This may well be America's 'Let them eat cake' disconnect moment that results in another civil war if Democrats don't dial it down. Civil wars have been started for less reason than what we see today.
Uh, no. Five of the eight politicians disqualified under the 14th Amendment were disqualified in state actions. Remember state's rights? States have the right to decide who is on their election ballots unless the decision runs afoul of Federal election law. Barring Trump doesn't.
Uh, yes. You are full of shit.
Another precedent is the absolute need for a prejudiced judge to obtain a negative ruling. Trump just doesn't have that many more years to wait for the judge's rulings to be overturned. That goes for his other four indictments too.
Eric, I know democrats refuse to, but did you ever read section 5?
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Congress, not the states.
Five of the eight disqualifications under the 14th Amendment were state actions. Congress's power is removal of disqualification by a 2/3rds vote. Trump can simply ask Congress to vote on reinstating him.
No. This should simply be overturned. The CO SC had no basis or authority to do this.
Assuming the democrats keep on this way, they will have to be removed and their party eliminated forever.
Also, the 14th Amendment does not list the president as one of the positions that you can be disqualified for.
So congress, not the states, and it doesn't apply to the presidency. You'd think an honest writer would have mentioned all that.
But we have Boehm, instead.
He wrote this article reluctantly.
Congress refused to seat Berger when he showed up to work in January 1919, on the grounds that his Espionage Act conviction was tantamount to engaging in insurrection against the country.
This should be the main thesis for you on why they are not the same. 1) conviction. 2) congress acted, not the states.
What happened to Berger says a lot about the awfulness of the Espionage Act and about how war encourages governments to stomp all over civil liberties.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/13/politics/espionage-act-trump-what-matters/index.html
Hmmm....
Maybe talk with ENB and Sullum?
"Conviction" is something of a red herring, as it's not required.
As far as DQ'ing an elected member, from A1S5: "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members". As the president is not, of course, a member of either House, this section doesn't apply in Trump's case.
Hey shrike. We have this thing called due process and the 14th amendment has a section 5.
You already showed your ignorance in your proclamation of the general welfare clause. Why do you persist?
He’s a fucking fascist.
Ah, a new definition of a fascist - someone who prefers the rule of law to the rule of Trump.
There is nothing remotely close to the rule of law in what you Nazis are doing.
In fact you guys are deliberately breaking it here.
I thought he was supposed to be a Marxist?
Now he's supposed to be a Nazi?
Please make up your mind(s).
Fascism is just another bastard child of Marx. State control by corporate proxy.
I'm still not shrike, you neo-confederate POS.
And see my link to Prof Somin's post below.
You don't understand any of this stuff. And because you don't understand it, you think that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
Who the fuck cares? You're the same misanthropic fascist shit even if you're a different pile.
And Ilya Somin is being an incredibly dishonest weasel in limiting due process to life or property rights. How can you Nazi fucks pretend to be even remotely libertarian when you pettifog the justification for withholding due process like that.
Absolutely depraved and insane.
Confederates were democrats like you shrike. People who would over turn normal order, the law, and the constitution for political power. And quote big fucking idiots too.
Not even turd disgraces himself like this:
SRG2 12/23/23
“Then strode in St Ashli, clad in a gown of white samite and basking in celestial radiance, walking calmly and quietly through the halls of Congress as police ushered her through doors they held open for her, before being cruelly martyred for her beliefs by a Soros-backed special forces officer with a Barrett 0.50 rifle equipped with dum-dum bullets.”
Why not just load her in a gas chamber you slimy pile of shit?
Somin is a jackass. You’re just too stupid and deluded to understand that.
Do you not get that you are one of the least intelligent and educated posters amongst the commentariat? I’m embarrassed for you.
Due process applies to cases involving life, liberty, and property. It does not and never has applied to running for political office.
In any case, Trump has so far been afforded "due process" in each case in which his qualification has been adjudicated. He won some, he lost some.
The Supreme Court could always decide that he has not been afforded "all the process which is due", but we'll have to wait and see about that.
Obviouslyfullofshit,
Yes, and in every case, Trump has not been found guilty.
Fuck of and die, you pathetic excuse for a human being.
Why do you keep referring to "guilt"? Do you really not understand that these are not criminal proceedings?
Trump’s case against being removed from the ballot hinges on the due process of law clause of the 14th Amendment. If the clause is interpreted as a purely procedural protection, as is Clarence Thomas’ view, then the idiot Maine secretary of state is correct and she has the authority to take anyone off the ballot for any reason that she chooses.
Procedural Due Process is met by the Constitution empowering the states legislatures to control elections and the legislatures delegating the enforcement of their regulations to her. The “right” to run for president is not one of the enumerated rights, which, according to the Dobbs decision (and others) are not fundamental and therefore not enforceable.
The SCOTUS would have to amend its view of the Due Process clause and say that there is, in fact, a constitutional right to run for political office.
Trump has, in fact, the right to run for office. Perhaps the SCOTUS will acknowledge this.
states legislatures to control elections and the legislatures delegating the enforcement of their regulations to her.
Sigh... means and manner are delegated to states. Although democrats have completely violated these terms through the courts for legislative maps.
The constotution provides the requirements to run, not states.
I think the court of first instance in Colorado afforded Trump due process by taking evidence and reaching conclusions about the possible insurrection, but the 5A argument doesn't hold up.
As Ilya Somin noted:
the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments only provides a guarantee of due process before a person can be deprived of "life, liberty, or property."
Disqualification under Section 3 doesn't threaten any of these. Loss of eligibility for holding various types of public offices pretty obviously doesn't threaten anyone's life or property rights.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/19/colorado-supreme-court-rules-trump-is-ineligible-for-the-presidency-under-section-3-of-the-14th-amendment
As mentioned above, democrats like yourself fail to admit there is a section 5.
And the fact you're cheering on judicial decisions without trial or trial material, no chance for a defendant to address his accusers, etc... says a lot about your understanding of the system.
I'm not a Democrat. There is indeed a s5, whose existence you were entirely unaware of until about 5 minutes ago (rhetorical hyperbole).
And the fact you’re cheering on judicial decisions without trial or trial material, no chance for a defendant to address his accusers, etc… says a lot about your understanding of the system.
This demonstrates your lack of understanding of Constitutional jurisprudence, or indeed jurisprudence in general.
FWIW I'm not particularly cheering on a judicial decision but I do note that you conspicuously fail to address the point - possibly through lack of understanding - that due process isn't the relevant consideration. As Ilya Somin notes above, 14.3 doesn't deprive anyone of life, liberty and property.
Further, your ignorance is compounded by your evidently not knowing that the district court in Colorado did have a hearing where evidence was considered. It wasn't a criminal trial and Trump was a respondent (an intervenor) not a defendant (another instance of your not understanding what happened) - but the court did consider actual evidence, and it seems you're unaware of this when you whine and whinge about it.
Here's an indication of the process: https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/County/Case_Details.cfm?Case_ID=5240
And here is the court's decision - with pages upon pages of factual issues - "materials".
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/11_17_2023%20Final%20Order.pdf
My guess is you didn't even realise that the judge had gone into such depths, as it wouldn't be covered by the Crackischer Beobachter or whatever news source you read.
It is not I who doesn't understand the system. It is you who appears not understand law in general. Which, as I've noted before, is why you got your arse chased off the VC fora, and why you come up with such drivel now.
“I’m not a Democrat.”
Hahahahaha, whatever you say bruv.
He's actually a fascist, but he'll settle for the Democrats.
Are you suggesting there's a difference?
Soros buys the democrats. You are one of his acolytes. Youre no different.
One if the biggest corruptions of the recent lawfare on the left is friendly judges determining facts in conflict prior to trial to limit a defense.
The Maine case didn't even have a judge involved retard. The Colorado case relied on a single sided examination relying on the partisan j6 committee retard.
Go back to pretending to be from England shrike. It would at least excuse some of your fucking ignorance.
"And the fact you’re cheering on judicial decisions without trial or trial material, no chance for a defendant to address his accusers, etc..."
[SRG2 presents copious examples clearly contradicting your nonsensical claims...]
And in response you call him a "retard". Classy.
Further, your ignorance is compounded by your evidently not knowing that the district court in Colorado did have a hearing where evidence was considered
You're the ignorant one here. There were a LOT of problems with the evidence. One of those is the judge allowed testimony from an expert who testified about how to interpret the law, which is almost always excluded as improper testimony in any unbiased court. The role of testimony is not to explain or interpret the law.
Another expert was a clearly TDS-addled sociologist who testified that Trump was speaking to his followers in coded language. He made this determination even though he admitted he had never interviewed any single individual who was present at January 6. But he's an expert, so he's able to tell us what Trump MEANS when he says certain things. This, again, is the type of testimony that gets thrown out of any respectable trial because it's pure mind-reading.
"I’m not a Democrat..."
Good chance; most D's have some integrity, unlike this obnoxiously arrogant piece of shit.
Section 5 has been construed to only apply to enforcement of Section 1 and has never been ruled to apply to other sections. Section 3 gives an explicit power to Congress: A 2/3rds vote will remove disqualification. Trump merely needs to ask Congress to vote on his disqualification.
I love your guilty until proven innocent form of banana Republic. Not even hiding it are you.
Exactly as I said. If due process is purely procedural, then kiss any unenumerated rights goodbye. To protect these rights the courts must either recognize that the Due Process of Law clause is substantive or reinvigorate the “Privileges or Immunities” clause of the 14th Amendment. Washington v Glucksberg is too vague to be a protection against the violation of rights.
Nonetheless there was enough due process for Trump to have nothing to complain about - extensive consideration by the district court and review by the Colorado SC.
If the drafters had intended 14.3 insurrection to be determined by a criminal trial, they could have said so. They didn't deem it necessary. And you can hardly claim that 14.3 is unconstitutional.
6th Amendment:
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
The Colorado court had no jurisdiction since the "crime" was committed in WA DC. Furthermore, unless "insurrection" is not a crime, the 6th Amendment applies.
The 14th Amendment doesn't require a criminal offense. It requires insurrection or rebellion against the US Constitution. Trump rebelled against the US Constitution through his Executive Vesting Clause violation of attempting to remain in office beyond the 4 year term he was elected for in 2016.
The 14th Amendment doesn’t require a criminal offense. It requires insurrection or rebellion against the US Constitution
How do people write these fucking things?
Special Ed wrote it.
So Hillary and many other Democrats should have been barred from office when they questioned the 2016 vote count?
No part of the 14th Amendment can be invalidated by the 6th Amendment.
In any case, the 14th Amendment procedure in question is not a "criminal prosecution", so why even bring up the 6th Amendment?
extensive consideration by the district court and review by the Colorado SC.
This is false as it used primarily j6 materials and didn't provide an exploratory defense.
Again. Why do you continue to ignore 14.5 shrike.
If your claim is that Trump was not afforded "due process", then you're in luck: the Supreme Court will probably weigh in on precisely that issue soon.
How do you square that with the fact that primary elections, while administered by the state, are entirely within the purview of the political parties that run them?
For instance, the state-level Republican party of Colorado has stated that if they don't win in court, they will switch their nomination process to a caucus system, making the court's ruling null.
The Colorado justices solely ruled on the primary ballot. There is no reason they wouldn't extend it to the general election.
As a precedent for the current situation involving Trump and the 14th Amendment, Berger's case probably has little value.
So why did you waste everyone's time and write this drivel?
You’ll never get those 5 minutes back that you spent reading about something kind of interesting. You gonna be ok?
The poor analysis, ignorance, and spurious comparisons to Trump make it a waste of time. But it does provide an excellent forum to ridicule Boehm.
Another opportunity to take a shot at Trump.
As a precedent for the current situation involving Trump and the 14th Amendment, Berger's case probably has little value. For one, Berger plainly didn't engage in an insurrection, and the First Amendment should have prevented any conviction for the supposed crime of writing anti-war editorials or publishing Socialist opinions in a newspaper.
This was a literal face-palm moment for me.
Same.
Maybe it's some sort of cry for help?
same
Just embarrassing yourself Mr Boem
Here is Jack Marshall's take.
https://groups.google.com/g/Talk.Politics.Guns/c/kfls9ZFHDao/m/0Wlp-3L2AAAJ
Maine joined Colorado in barring from its GOP primary ballot yesterday, as Maine Secretary of State Shenna Bellows (D) decided that she “had no choice.” She had no choice because she is a rapid partisan Leftist who, like many Democratic operatives in various positions of power within the legal establishment, she is determined that President Biden be rescued from his election peril by any means necessary. Trump’s actions before and during the January 6, 2021, riot in the U.S. Capitol do not justify charging him with inciting a riot, much less an “insurrection” that would trigger Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Maine’s completely partisan and anti-democratic move is sure to be appealed along with Colorado Supreme Court’s finding last week that Trump could not appear on the ballot in that state under the 14th Amendment provision designed to keep members of the Confederacy that prevents insurrectionists from holding office. The U.S. Supreme Court will review the case, one hopes quickly, and had better resolve the issue of whether Trump can run again or if the nation will be thrown into Constitutional chaos by allowing some states to block him.
SCOTUS could, if John Roberts is overcome with one of his weenie attacks, decide the case narrowly without getting to the merits of the NeverTrump 14th Amendment Big Lie. Because it is a Big Lie, one of many that the Left has tried to use to bring down Trump before, while he was President and ever since, that it has reached this stage is horrifying, and I say that as someone who profoundly hopes for some legal and fair way to take Trump out of the 2024 election. This isn’t it. Like the two impeachments and the unethical Nancy Pelosi-Liz Cheney January 6 Star Chamber in the House, the Maine and Colorado actions are far more serious attacks on the nation’s democacy than the stupid, futile, January 6 rioting.
Jonathan Turley outlined as clearly as anyone has why the Section 3 application to Trump is untenable and dangerous. There are two main reasons. The first is that the 14th Amendment, like the Emoluments Clause that the Axis [the “resistance,” Democrats and the media] dredged out of the dead letter pond in one of its potential impeachment theories, is a narrow and archaic provision that has never been used except in the specific instances it was designed for: when former members of the Confederacy wanted to run for office after the Civil War. The second is that there was no insurrection in 2021, and so Trump cannot be labeled an insurrectionist.
The apparently officially-sanctioned Democratic Party talking point is that since Section 3 of the 14th requires no official finding that an individual is an insurrectionist, there is no Due Process breach to disqualify Trump without any trial on the question. In other words, the Axis thinks that its simply calling the Capitol riot an insurrection repeatedly makes it an insurrection. That’s a Big Lie purveyor’s dream: repeat it enough, and it’s true. When he 14th Amendment was passed, there was no crime of “insurrection,” and no definition of it in the Constitution. There didn’t need to be, because a civil war is by definition an insurrection, and that’s what Section 3 was about: the Civil War just completed. Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime with 18 USC 2383 in 1948, so now there is something other than the Civil War to use to trigger Section 3. Trump, however, hasn’t been charged with violating 18 USC 2383, because he didn’t, and no prosecutor, even Jack Smith, Trump’s own personal Javert, is foolish enough to charge him. (I would view doing so as an ethics violation justifying bar sanctions.) The Democrats who desperately want to stop American from having the chance to vote for Trump have decided he is an insurrectionist because they have been saying so for three years. That’s it. That’s their case.
If the Colorado and Maine ruling stands, it will create a situation in which any politician who is sufficiently unpopular and controversial could be banned from the ballots of states with an unethical and partisan Supreme Court. As others have noted, the concerted efforts to use extralegal means to undermine Trump’s Presidency was far closer to an insurrection than the actions of the drunken mob on January 6, 2021.
It profoundly depressed me to read Scalia Law School’s Ilya Somin‘s support for the bogus insurrection theory. He’s a constitutional scholar, but now heads my Bias Makes You Stupid victims list. Somin’s argument is tortured at best, and he never makes a convincing case that the Capitol riot qualifies as an insurrection. A Harvard study found that most of the January 6 rioters were not trying to overthrow the government, but to express their anger and disapproval over what they felt was an unfair election and to support President Trump, whom they believed was the victim of it.
Of course, that’s a study from an institution that is itself lacking in integrity and trustworthiness…
Once the dangerous Section 3 conspiracy is derailed for good by the Supreme Court (and in stating it this way I am channeling the Hickory high school basketball coach played by Gene Hackman in “Hoosiers,” when he tells a shaky sub at a crucial point in a must-win game, “After Ollie makes his free throw—and you WILL make your second free throw—“), the American public is likely to be faced with a terrible choice: vote for a vengeance-obsessed man who has proven himself untrustworthy and unstable as a crucial symbolic vote against the Democratic Party that has demonstrated hostility to the Constitution and the rule of law, or vote for a mentally-collapsing President whose first term has been a disaster across the board and his political party that is now hostile to both the Constitution and core American values.
It’s a crummy choice, but voters have a right to make it, and only one party is trying to take the right away. I think that by itself makes the responsible choice clear.
Who the fuck is Jack Marshall? Isn't he some kind of dead musician?
The volume nob on his amps went up to 11.
A Marshall stack is tough to beat, although both Ampeg and Fender have tried.
My guess is that you read the post all the way down to this description of Trump (unlike Michael): "a vengeance-obsessed man who has proven himself untrustworthy and unstable as a crucial symbolic vote against the Democratic Party that has demonstrated hostility to the Constitution and the rule of law".
Upholding the decision would greatly simplify elections. Every state would have only one candidate. All that is necessary is to count up the electoral votes and the election is complete. No chance of cheating when there are no votes cast.
See how "efficient" dictatorships are?
My greatest fear is that some people take what I just said seriously.
Welcome to Illinois where we commonly have uncontested elections, especially for the State House and State Senate.
If you live in Illinois, you have my sincere condolences.
A few here in the commentariat do. Could be worse; could be Venezuela.
Don't worry, Venezuela is coming to you.
I was born in NYC and left when it turned to shit. I moved to Los Angeles and left when it turned to shit. Then I moved to a suburb of Seattle and left when it turned to shit.
I'm running out of places to go so my new home is my last stand.
Who are you? Randal Flagg?
Statewide elections in CA have only Democrats on the ballot. I stopped voting here years ago. What's the point?
Seriously the issue now, as the post points out, is whether or not the court tries to make this a narrow ruling that leaves a novel loophole for some variant of this lawfare to continue. We can only hope that they shut down this shit show once and for all.
Shrike will ignore the paragraph about Somin. It was obvious to readers of VC that somin took a never trump angle at the time and his analysis has been much more twisted to reach a result. Probably why shrike likes him now.
Who is Jack Marshall and why did you waste pixels posting his drivel?
So SC will rule he is to be on the ballot for primary and general election – enforcement will be up to Congress to decide on January 6, 2025……Kamela Harris – what is the VP roll?
Rubber Stamp.
The VP roll is a dance move where one screams inanities while gesticulating wildly.
The VP role is to attend funerals and pretend to be important.
And also to be a non-voting President of the Senate, except in cases of ties.
When our VP rolls, she lands heels-up.
Willie Brown didn't leave her 200 bucks on the dresser, she got a Mercedes so she must have some talent.
It all intersects on a Ven diagram.
Yes, she loves them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-SUdkc5XI4&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia
If you painted a Venn diagram on a yellow school bus, I think she would follow it right off a cliff.
Who doesn't love a yellow school bus?
Thanks to the law passed by Congress in 2021 --- VP cannot do anything.
The current VP fully complies with that - she does nothing.
“Congress refused to seat Berger when he showed up to work in January 1919, on the grounds that his Espionage Act conviction was tantamount to engaging in insurrection against the country. The vote was nearly unanimous, 311-1, with the lone dissenting vote cast by a Wisconsin Republican.”
Emphasis added. Maybe you should read your little history lesson again Eric and see if you can glean who has the power and authority to determine if someone convicted of insurrection can take their seat in the government.
“As a precedent for the current situation involving Trump and the 14th Amendment, Berger's case probably has little value. For one, Berger plainly didn't engage in an insurrection…”
Neither did Trump…
Congress is equally entitled to refuse to seat someone because of the color of his socks.
Congress has no role in the seating of the President of the United States.
Suppose Trump had actually been convicted of insurrection. Would you lot then accept that he was ineligible? Or would you lean on the crutch of the president not being an officer?
If he had been convicted of insurrection specifically, it would be easier to accept that it was disqualifying to his presidential hopes, as an argument.
If he was convicted of something related, like 'inciting a riot' or 'reckless endangerment' or even 'disruption of an official proceeding', not so much.
Speaking of, have any of the J6 defendants even been convicted of 'insurrection'? The closest case I've heard of was the guy who got a 'seditious conspiracy' charge, and he wasn't within 100 miles of DC at the time.
Shrike... I know democrat narratives are the only facts you've ever needed, but there was no fucking insurrection.
There actually was. From the New York Times:
Ms. Pelosi also said she had spoken with Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, about “preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes.” . . .
But some Defense Department officials have privately expressed anger that political leaders seemed to be trying to get the Pentagon to do the work of Congress and Cabinet secretaries, who have legal options to remove a president.
Mr. Trump, they noted, is still the commander in chief, and unless he is removed, the military is bound to follow his lawful orders. While military officials can refuse to carry out orders they view as illegal, they cannot proactively remove the president from the chain of command. That would be a military coup, these officials said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/us/politics/trump-impeachment-pelosi.html
Trying to incite a military coup is insurrection and sedition. Wonder what Diet Shrike thinks that the penalty for Pelosi should be.
Mark Milley is quite possibly guilty of treason for reaching out to Chinese officials. But we'll just let that slide for now.
If he'd refused to obey an unlawful order from the President, that's one thing. He pre-emptively coordinated with foreign entities regarding his plans to disobey the President, which is something else.
He’s not a Democrat so I’m sure he would agree that she engaged in some form of sedition at the least.
"Suppose Trump had actually been convicted of insurrection."
It would have made it all the way up to the Supreme Court so the burden of proof may have had to be greater than sweet-fuck-all which seems to be the Soros prosecutor/Garland standard.
Also, involvement in an insurrection didn't keep Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Munroe or Quincy Adams from becoming president.
14A didn't exist at that point, obviously. 😉
And even if that weren't true, they didn't engage in insurrection against the United States.
The current federal crime of insurrection, 18 U.S.C. 2383, says, “Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”
So there would be no question of Trump's eligibility. Unless, I suppose, if Biden pardoned him before leaving office? But then we'd be back to the same 14th Amendment question: is a conviction required under Article 3, or would the facts alone disqualify him?
Matt Taibbi on the Mess in Maine.
https://www.racket.news/p/the-mess-in-maine?publication_id=1042&post_id=140169848&isFreemail=false&r=1ifm4
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE......
Victor Berger is a Socialist (enemy of the USA)
Trump is Anti-Socialist
Wannabe Hitlers and their Nazi's shouldn't be allowed to conquer the USA from within via their democratic "New Deals" that VOID the ?OLD? US Constitution/USA (The people's law over their government).
"was convicted"
so.. um... yeah... this is indeed an unprecedented situation! Nice try though.
What is there a 1 minute edit limit?! -_-
Say what you want about the law or it’s rightness. It was still the law and remained so when he tried to run. This is TOTALLY and completely different.. Much more dangerous!
Imagine a veto by simple claim from the other side and a screeching MSM! Not even a show trial and conviction needed.
Actually, the legal aspects should be clear and incontrovertible. The amendment says "shall have engaged in insurrection" and that cannot be established except by due process of law, which is completely absent in Trump's case.
even "due process of law" is not acceptable at this point. Can you imagine a jury in DC "convicting" trump of insurrection. No one will take it seriously. Even the libs who hate him know it's a farce.
Another example of “Terminating the Constitution”…
There was a week-long trial in Colorado, at which Trump's legal counsel presented arguments and evidence. The case had been filed over two months prior to the judge's issue of her decision (which was, by the way, in Trump's favor), and the parties had filed dozens of motions and affidavits, as the filings show (add "https:"):
//www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/County/Case_Details.cfm?Case_ID=5240
You obviously have a unique definition of the term, "completely absent".
Trump was not on trial for insurrection in those proceedings.
No shit Sherlock. He was not on trial for the crime of insurrection, and he had no chance of being fined or sent to prison. His life, liberty and property were therefore not in jeopardy. All that was at stake (and this was the subject of the court proceeding), was his eligibility to hold the office of the President of the United States.
The Constitution can be a cruel mistress.
Obviouslyfullofshit, your fantasy life is evident, along with your imbecility.
His campaign called for the country to respect free speech and freedom of the press,
Berger was a socialist; he pissed on free speech and freedom of the press, like all socialists.
He was a socialist without power. I'm sure his tune would have changed if he had acquired power, but that also goes for almost any kind of authoritarian.
Hur dur... evury Confedurate in the Civil War wuz ultimately barred frum holding pubic offices Boehm? Why no you count them tooz?
Go fuck yourself Boehm this is a retarded non-sequitur on at least 3 counts by your own telling, which you would recognize yourself if you weren't such a shitty partisan hack:
1. Berger was actually convicted of a no-shit criminal act before section 3 was invoked.
2. Berger was on the ballot. This conflation is so narrow as to make it obvious that you're the shit-for-brains partisan hack you're trying to obfuscate yourself from being seen as. In addition to not having been convicted, Trump is being effectively barred from running. Something that wasn't done even to Berger.
3. This was a Congressional Representative seat, not a Presidential election or Federal seat. That is, if Congress doesn't want a felon from WI in their midst, they can vote out a felon in their midst for virtually any reason, Section 3 isn't required. The whole of Congress can even impeach a President without a criminal conviction, which you would know if you weren't actively trying to retard other peoples' intellect and undermine democracy and freedom by actively disinforming the public.
I have been trying to post a rather long comment, but it never appears. A very short one above did post OK. I tried cutting it in half, but still it seems like the commenting system took it, and then nothing... So if a whole string of different attempts at posting it appears later, sorry about that.
A very short version:
Those who wrote the 14th Amendment meant just one insurrection: The Confederate States of America. That is, a large organized group that bore arms against the USA. They had uniforms, ranks, a population of millions, and elected and appointed officials, and this effort went on across several states for four years. These are the people that clause in the 14th Amendment was written to cover; if the authors meant to include lesser attacks on the government in "insurrection" for the purpose of the 14th Amendment, they would have said so.