After Resisting Demands To Punish 'Hate Speech,' Penn's President Capitulated. It Did Not Save Her Job.
Liz Magill and two other university leaders provoked bipartisan outrage by defending freedom of expression on campus.

University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill resigned on Saturday, the day before the school's board of trustees was expected to consider her future in light of her response to antisemitism on campus. Magill's resignation came "four days after she appeared before Congress and appeared to evade the question of whether students who called for the genocide of Jews should be punished," as The New York Times puts it. Harvard President Claudine Gay and Massachusetts Institute of Technology President Sally Kornbluth, who testified at the same hearing last Tuesday, are charged with the same offense, and critics say they should resign too.
The bipartisan outrage provoked by Magill et al.'s testimony is puzzling when you consider their comments in context. All three witnesses already had condemned the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel and the anti-Jewish tenor of demonstrations that celebrated the group's barbaric terrorism as a legitimate form of resistance. But while unambiguously rejecting that position, the college presidents pushed back against the notion that students who endorse it should face discipline.
"We embrace a commitment to free expression even of views that are objectionable, offensive, [and] hateful," Gay said, although she added that such speech is cause for disciplinary action when it "crosses into conduct that violates our policies" against "bullying" and "harassment." In short, she said, "I have sought to confront hate while preserving free expression."
One might reasonably question how committed Harvard and Penn are to that principle. The two schools came in last and second to last, respectively, in the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's recent ranking of 248 colleges where students responded to a survey aimed at measuring each institution's tolerance for diverse opinions. MIT, which was rated "average," did substantially better. But officially, all three universities strive to maintain an environment where students are free to express their opinions, no matter how controversial, without fear of punishment. As private institutions, they are not bound by the First Amendment, but their speech policies are broadly similar to what the Constitution requires of government-run universities.
Penn, for example, promises respect for "the right to freedom of thought and expression." While the university "condemns hate speech, epithets, and racial, ethnic, sexual and religious slurs," it says "the content of student speech or expression is not by itself a basis for disciplinary action." Student speech nevertheless "may be subject to discipline when it violates applicable laws or University regulations or policies." The exceptions include harassment and threats of physical violence.
"Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct?" Rep. Elise Stefanik (R–N.Y.) asked Magill. "Yes or no?"
Since Penn's policy (like the First Amendment) generally protects even "hate speech," Magill could not give Stefanik the simple answer she demanded. "When it comes to prohibiting speech, even the most vile forms of speech, context matters," New York Times columnist David French notes. "A lot."
Magill tried to make that point. "If the speech turns into conduct," she said, "it can be harassment, yes." Stefanik was not happy with that answer:
Stefanik: I am asking, specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment?
Magill: If it is directed and severe or pervasive, it is harassment.
Stefanik: So the answer is yes.
Magill: It is a context-dependent decision, congresswoman.
Stefanik: It's a context-dependent decision? That's your testimony today? Calling for the genocide of Jews is depending upon the context? That is not bullying or harassment? This is the easiest question to answer yes, Miss Magill. So is your testimony that you will not answer yes?
Magill: If the speech becomes conduct, it can become harassment, yes.
Stefanik: Conduct meaning committing the act of genocide? The speech is not harassment? This is unacceptable, Miss Magill. I'm going to give you one more opportunity for the world to see your answer. Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's code of conduct when it comes to bullying and harassment—yes or no?
Magill: It can be harrassment.
Stefanik had similar exchanges with Gay and Kornbluth. They all faced the same problem: Stefanik had made it clear that "calling for the genocide of Jews" was shorthand for celebrating Hamas-style "resistance," advocating "globalized intifada," aspiring to liberation of Palestine "from the river to the sea," or chanting "there is only one solution: intifada, revolution." So if Magill et al. agreed that "calling for the genocide of Jews" always qualifies as punishable harassment, they would be committed to penalizing students for speech that is clearly protected by their schools' official policies as well as the First Amendment.
The day after the hearing, Magill amended her response to Stefanik's questions. "In that moment, I was focused on our university's longstanding policies, aligned with the U.S. Constitution, which say that speech alone is not punishable," she said in a video that Penn posted on X. "I was not focused on, but should have been, the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of Jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate. It's evil, plain and simple."
That much was consistent with what Magill had said at the hearing. This part was not:
I want to be clear: A call for genocide of Jewish people is threatening, deeply so. It is intentionally meant to terrify a people who have been subjected to pogroms and hatred for centuries and were the victims of mass genocide in the Holocaust. In my view, it would be harassment or intimidation.
For decades, under multiple Penn presidents and consistent with most universities, Penn's policies have been guided by the Constitution and the law. In today's world, where we are seeing signs of hate proliferating across our campus and our world in a way not seen in years, these policies need to be clarified and evaluated. Penn must initiate a serious and careful look at our policies.
Magill's capitulation, which proved insufficient to save her job, did not bode well for freedom of expression at Penn. Her new understanding of what counts as "threatening" was clearly broader than the Supreme Court's definition of a "true threat," which involves "a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence" communicated to "a particular individual or group of individuals." Her revised take on "harassment or intimidation" also was broader than the Court's definition of proscribable incitement, which is speech that is both "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" and "likely" to do so.
The controversy over Magill et al.'s handling of Stefanik's questions reflected and reinforced misconceptions about the First Amendment's limits. "There is no 'both sides-ism' and it isn't 'free speech,'" said Sen. John Fetterman (D–Pa.), one of many Democrats who joined Republicans in criticizing Magill and the two other university presidents. "It's simply hate speech. It was embarrassing for a venerable Pennsylvania university, and it should be reflexive for leaders to condemn antisemitism and stand up for the Jewish community or any community facing this kind of invective."
Contrary to what Fetterman seems to think, "hate speech" is indisputably protected by the First Amendment unless it falls into one of the narrow exceptions drawn by the Supreme Court. There is a distinction between "condemn[ing] antisemitism" and punishing people who promote it, which is the line that Magill tried to draw before giving up.
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>>which is the line that Magill tried to draw before giving up.
but you did. and French. right.
It's interesting how much, all of a sudden, what you say (i.e., calling for genocide of Israeli's or perhaps more generally, Jews) is no longer protected under the first Amendment. So much prostrate worshiping of the First Amendment recently makes the current caviling seem "peculiar". After all, compared to the BLMbnvm mostly peaceful ritual firedances, they haven't to my knowledge uttered anything likely to immediately encourage normal folks to go out and find them a Jew to kill today, or tomorrow.
I find it more of less concern what idiot college students say, but more concern what they think. That they think it's OK to support Gazans in what can truly be described as medieval savagery should be of great concern to all of us (though I would really like to hear one of them try to justify baking a living baby in an oven). If you penalize them for what they say, you will not change their thoughts, but they will learn to keep their thoughts safely hidden in dark subterranean tunnels (that perhaps run under your house, and you will not know how many of them there are or how dedicated they are to their cause. Rest assured, however, that those subterranean thoughts that were driven underground will come to the surface when those who hold those thoughts are alone in voting booths, choosing leaders who will set policies.
Would you really rather have people wanting to kill Israelis, or Jews, or you hiding in the dark waiting their chance to emerge from their tunnel and act, or would you rather allow them to proudly proclaim their desires so that you may be aware of how many there are, and whom you should not let get too close?
Houston, we have a problem, but it's not idiots who babble about that which they know nothing - it is people who contemplate, loudly or silently, about the doing of bad actions. If someone hates me, or wishes me evil, I'd far rather have the knowledge of that threat than "be protected from that knowledge".
Edit is not working this morning. Israeli's, should be Israelis, but it won't let me correct that grammatical error.
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The whole point is that it isn't "all of a sudden." These people (e.g., Ms. Magill) have been clamping down on speech they dislike for years (decades?). For them to trot out "Freedom of speech!" now (in defense of the crazed "anti-Zionists") is a joke.
Is that REALLY what happened Sullum??
We can all see that it isn't.
Arguably, the real reason for Magill's dismissal (albeit one that few would openly acknowledge) was that she had failed to explicitly fulfill her duty to support the verdict in America’s leading criminal “satire” case–a case that itself, just like calls for genocide, depended entirely on the circumstances. This was a true capitulation, one far worse than anything attributed to the distinguished university president. See the documentation at:
https://raphaelgolbtrial.wordpress.com/
But all is not lost, Magill, we are told, is still a law professor. Therefore, she still has at least some opportunity to address the great "satirical" scourge tearing our great nation apart. This scourge remains a good deal more serious than a minor quarrel over genocide and student protests. It must be met with severity, uncompromising discipline, and steadfast, principled purpose.
This dude hasn’t posted this for so long I thought he was dead.
"After Resisting Demands To Punish 'Hate Speech,' Penn's President Capitulated. It Did Not Save Her Job.
Liz Magill and two other university leaders provoked bipartisan outrage by defending freedom of expression on campus."
None of this happened Sullum
1. She didn't fail to resist calls to punish hate speech - she continued her policy of punishing certain speech that *she* hates while defending the right of others to speak things she likes (like the destruction of Israel).
2. She never defended freedom of speech. She defended the 'right' of people to speak in ways that she approves of.
It says a lot that Sollum refuses to address the 900 pound gorilla in the room, namely that these universities have for over a decade punished faculty, students and guest speakers for speech they disagree with. No matter their protest to the contrary, the fact that they will punish a faculty member or student for criticizing DEI but won't punish a student for calling for genocide demonstrates a clear double standard. No, they aren't defending free speech, they're defending speech that they agree with. Fuck Sollum with a rusty chainsaw for failing to address this contradiction.
When they suddenly discovered the principle of free speech that is reprehensible only after leftists starting using after years and decades ignoring it, especially for anyone to the right of Mao, forgive me for questioning their motives.
Even Nazis believed Nazis had a right to free speech.
"Politically popular speech has always been protected: even the Jews were free to say 'Heil Hitler.'" ~ Isaac Asimov
Also, does anyone think that these three wouldn't punish students who shaved their heads and demonstrated in favor of white supremacy?
They’d punish students who just insisted the United States had a border. No goofy haircuts required.
True. I'm just wondering how much Sollum would be celebrating Gay if she was protecting a group that dressed in robes and pointed hats and burned crosses in the quad?
The burning would be grounds for punishment.
Putting carbon into the atmosphere is probably the only reason leftists have a problem with the holocaust.
Why? Isn't that symbolic speech, just like burning a flag?
Here's Sullum addressing the issue:
"One might reasonably question how committed Harvard and Penn are to that principle. The two schools came in last and second to last, respectively, in the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's recent ranking of 248 colleges where students responded to a survey aimed at measuring each institution's tolerance for diverse opinions. MIT, which was rated "average," did substantially better. But officially, all three universities strive to maintain an environment where students are free to express their opinions, no matter how controversial, without fear of punishment."
The rest of the article relies on the last sentence "But officially" here and pretends that the rest of the paragraph are irrelevant. The question asked this woman had nothing to do with 1A or hate speech. The question was whether or not the speech employed by demonstrators was in compliance with the university's anti harassment rules of conduct. After decades of censoring students and faculty and cancelling events featuring anyone who voices any opinion contrary to leftist dogma it's pretty clear that these universities are not shy about enforcing there rules of conduct. Until now. The rest of this screed attempts to defend a woman for her principled response to a question that wasn't asked based upon an "official" policy that exists only in Jacob's fever dreams. Sullum is a seriously damaged human being. His TDS infection is so severe that rational thinking is no longer within his grasp.
Yeah, it's a hand wave to the issue basically.
Are you intentionally misspelling his name similar to Gollum; if so congratulations the mindless, clutching at "my precious" while being the evil character seems to fit Jacob here to a T.
A fortunate mistake but I'll use it now in the future.
Yes, this is the core issue. Any claim to universal principles is just bullshit. And the smirking in front of the Congressional committee demonstrates they know it.
If they had any balls, they would just admit that they run highly partisan political enterprises, and dare us to do anything about it.
The problem is that Magill's critics aren't really adhering to any principle. At least not the ones on the right-the ones on the left are being consistent in that they want to punish bad speech and thing hate speech is a crime.
Calling for genocide is free speech, though it may qualify as harassment or threats depending on the context in which it's said. Likewise, I can suggest we re-enslave all the blacks, and that can just be speech. If I'm organizing an angry mob outside the black student center, that may be something else.
They have been organizing mobs, and they have been personally targeting Jewish students. A grad student at one of these universities found a hand written note placed on his office computer that stated 'Zionist Kike'. It's gone beyond simple speech in a number of cases.
"They have been organizing mobs, and they have been personally targeting Jewish students."
Meanwhile Buttplug and Chemjeff have spent the last couple of days saying conservatives are the real antisemites because they criticize Soros and the Nazis were "right-wing".
Nazis were not originally grouped on the right, that was a revision that occurred after it became apparent to Western leftist that they didn't really want to be associated with Nazism.
The Soviets and Maoists really pushed on that too. "No enemies on the left" even though they were constantly splintering into ideologically "purer" groups, and fighting like angry tomcats.
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So, according to you, there are "[people] on the left" who are criticizing (now former) President Magill for not punishing the crazed "anti-Zionists" on her campus. Funny, I haven't heard of any such critics. Could you maybe provide a link or two?
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I guess I quality as "Magill's critic on the right."
I don't have a problem with your last proposition. I do not want "hate speech" laws. But, as various other commenters pointed out, she is being criticized as a university president, and universities (including hers) have been freely using their internal rules to punish any number of other students / faculty (most of whose rhetoric / conduct was nowhere near as bad as the outright advocacy of genocide we're seeing from the "anti-Zionists").
(For my personal views on what should happen at universities, see here.)
I just don't think that's accurate:
One might reasonably question how committed Harvard and Penn are to that principle. The two schools came in last and second to last, respectively, in the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's recent ranking of 248 colleges where students responded to a survey aimed at measuring each institution's tolerance for diverse opinions.
He points out that they're shitty on free speech. The problem is that this hearing was not calling for more liberal free speech policies, but seeking to find out why students weren't being investigated for expressing support for Hamas. I watched enough of it to hear from Ms. Stefanik the same kind of moral panic you hear from a leftist when it comes to misgendering, and she's trying to apply it to every kind of pro-Palestine demonstration on campus.
Frankly, I find it completely plausible that 18-20 year olds simply think "From the river to the Sea" is a catchy chant calling for freedom and don't think it has any genocidal implications, and there's probably a lot of ignorant students joining in with it. A much better version of the hearing would have been to confront Liz Magill with previous instances of Penn State shutting down relatively tame speech and asking where the line is. If you can cheer on Hamas, why can't you say that Affirmative Action might be counterproductive and is anti-liberty?
Ms. Stefanik wasn't trying to protect student speech, she was wondering why students weren't being punished for speaking. The whole thing is back-asswards.
Small correction. Liz Magill was not the president of the of Pennsylvania State University, the flagship of the Pennsylvania state university system, she was the president of the University of Pennsylvania, a private Ivy League university
“The University of Pennsylvania (often abbreviated simply as Penn[11] or UPenn[12]) is a private Ivy League research university in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It is one of nine colonial colleges and was chartered prior to the U.S. Declaration of Independence when Benjamin Franklin, the university’s founder and first president, advocated for an educational institution that trained leaders in academia, commerce, and public service.
I knew that, it's just that typing Penn State seems to happen by reflex. I do know the difference, just a typographical error.
Gotcha. A lot of people don’t know it though. A lot of them because they quite reasonably assume that something called “the University of Pennsylvania” is a state university rather than a private Ivy League university.
Correction to my comment: “Liz Magill was not the president
of theof Pennsylvania State University (PennState), the flagship of the Pennsylvania state university system,…”That's a bullshit hand wave, that barely addresses the issue of hypocrisy. Sorry, that's a weasel way to address it, a throw away sentence to claim you addressed it.
You claim he failed to address it. You didn't claim he failed to address it "sufficiently."
There's certainly a lot more that could be said about this. Penn is not a haven for free speech.
I also think it's irrelevant since she wasn't fired for being a hypocrite, she was fired for not being zealously anti-speech enough. I know some people want to indulge in schadenfreude, but the problem is that this solves nothing. She gets replaced by someone else, all current policies stay in place, and the next president simply adds "Jews" to the list of groups you're not allowed to offend.
As far as I am concerned a single throwaway sentence is not addressing it. It's a failure to address it but trying to offer enough that when called out on it, you can claim nuh-uh. It's typical bullshit you see people like Sarc and Lyingjeffy use. Also, we aren't talking simple speech as these protests have crossed over to being targeted, in a good number of cases. Barricading Jewish student in their office. Trying to block entrance to a Jewish dining hall. Leaving personal notes calling Jewish student Zionist Kikes, etc. It's not simply speech it's harassment, and bordering on calls for actual violence (I just give it a matter of time, it's already happened in London, two teenage girls attacked and beat an orthodox Jewish women unconscious and one was gloating because she thought she had killed her). Also, I am of the opinion that until the left has to suffer the consequences of their kowtowing to the mob, they will not cease to continue to push the Overton window.
To take it further, simply saying they have a bad rating without addressing why they have a bad rating is not addressing the issue. Why are these universities so poorly rated? Could it be that no one actually believes their crocodile tears of 'muh free speech' because their actions have not lived up to that principle? And if so, any attempt for themselves to cloth themselves in the Constitution now that they're getting called out is not a defense of free speech by any stretch of the imagination. For Sollum to pretend otherwise is bullshit.
Additionally, I think there is an issue of consequences. Yes, you have free speech but you are not absolved for the consequences of said speech. Calls for genocide probably deserves some level of consequences. This is Jordan Peterson or Riley Gaines being cancelled because they say stuff you don't like, this is an actual call for the extermination of a people. To say meh, free speech misses the point that government cannot regulate speech nor can it protect you from the consequences of said speech. The meh, free speech divorces them from any consequences for said speech. Maybe not ban them, but possibly have every student watch the footage taken on October 7th. Then see how many are screaming from the river to the Sea and calling Jewish students Zionist Kikes. It's a university, and they do require students to take certain courses, so make this an assignment.
One more point, has the board of trustees released their discussions? If not, how do we not know that they fired her for allowing this and not for the hypocrisy of allowing this?
I also don't buy they just think it's a catchy phrase. Maybe that defense could fly on October 8th, but it's been widely explained by this point what that actually means that anyone using it either doesn't care (and insists on using despite its meaning) or knows exactly what it means and is using it as such.
No one said Stefanik was interested in protecting free speech.
Just that the universities have been punishing unpopular speech for a decade and now that they're saing 'no, these people can say horrible things because of free speech' isn't them defending free speech but them allowing popular speech to be left unmolested while *STILL PREVENTING OTHERS FROM SPEAKING FREELY*.
Maybe you missed this part of the article:
One might reasonably question how committed Harvard and Penn are to that principle. The two schools came in last and second to last, respectively, in the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression's recent ranking of 248 colleges where students responded to a survey aimed at measuring each institution's tolerance for diverse opinions. MIT, which was rated "average," did substantially better.
+1
Exactly right. ^+10
Hoist by her own petard, as they say. Let's be clear here: any event that in the slightest deviated from the Critical Theory Leftist line (like suggesting that biological males should not compete in sports against or shower with biological females) was cancelled, and quite often other sanctions (suspension, etc.) were invoked.
But when mobs of screaming Hamas supporters rampaged around campus, forced Jewish students to hide for their own protection, and tore down posters in opposition to the right of free speech, she was just fine with that.
Exactly. “Words are violence,” unless, apparently, they are words directed at “the oppressors.” Even if “the oppressors” were the ones attacked and killed and raped and mutilated and not the terrorists committing those atrocities. And even if "the oppressed" are the ones actually pursuing genocidal policies.
And “believe women” was the mantra, until hundreds of women were sexually assaulted by Hamas on Oct 7th, whereupon those claims were deemed “unverified.”
“We embrace a commitment to free expression even of views that are objectionable, offensive, [and] hateful,” Gay said, although she added that such speech is cause for disciplinary action when it “crosses into conduct that violates our policies” against “bullying” and “harassment.” In short, she said, “I have sought to confront hate while preserving free expression.”
One might reasonably question how committed Harvard and Penn are to that principle.
I’m not sure I see a principle that is reasonably crafted to be “committed to”, Jacob.
Yes, Republicans (actually this one has been kinda bipartisan… but to keep with the style guide and all) have pounced on this issue… because Harvard and other universities did this to themselves. The Universities had made it abundantly clear that they would not accept or tolerate any speech critical an amorphous and ill-defined “protected class” group, but then, with hand over heart, declared a principled, scholarly defense of all speech, “even hateful speech” in this one particular case.
Her statement above indicates that their principle of free speech wasn’t one. We protect all speech, even hateful speech… unless it’s mean and it violates our hateful speech guidelines.
Fuck ’em, no sympathy whatsoever.
My problem is that the punishment isn't coming because of all the previous instances of being anti-free speech. She suddenly stood up for free speech and then got smacked down. It's not exactly sending the proper message.
I know that she's a fucking hypocrite, but Ms. Stefanik didn't expose that. She wailed about how this was always harassment and bullying and that it "dehumanizes them." Way too easy to hear a leftist complaining about misgendering in her words.
I don't give a shit about Liz Magill, I think she's horrible, but it's hilarious that she ends up fired because she's not punishing the right people.
Herpetologist's handshake strikes again.
I could fill an entire thimble with the amount of sympathy I have for everyone involved in this entire debacle. Including the Jewish people who marched with BLM and then were shocked to discover BLM was BLM.
But did she really stand up for free speech? Or just free speech when it's convenient? I would argue that her defense of free speech cannot be divorced from past actions until she admits to the wrongs of said past actions. The idea of absolution without admission of guilt/sin is bullshit. She didn't, in my opinion stand up for free speech, she used free speech as a skin suit to cover for her hypocrisy. As did the other two. And rather or not the congresswoman addressed that is irrelevant to the fact that none of these three actually believe in free speech, the just used it as a handy excuse.
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Well, no. She was fired because after amply demonstrating the her university is capable of punishing "bad" speech, she chose not to punish openly genocidal speech.
College presidents are supposed to be good politicians. So, without saying this would be a Good Thing, here’s a job-saving way to answer the question.
“Yes, Congressman, it’s 100% a violation, and that’s why today I’m issuing a special decree for the expulsion of all pro-Hamas demonstrators, invoking my inherent college-president-ish authority. All the students named in my decree will have to leave campus immediately on pain of being arrested for trespassing. Naturally, if the courts overrule me and order the students back on campus, I’d have to obey the courts, but then you would plainly see it wouldn’t be my fault.
"(I'm simultaneously issuing a decree for the expulsion of all anti-LGBT haters, just to show I'm impartial. I hope the committee doesn't mind.)"
What about PRO-"LGBT" haters? We hear a lot more from them.
We don’t talk about Nashville.
Women attempting to compete in a man’s sport.
Oh, please! Her First Amendment rights are intact. No one's going to put her in jail for this. She was tossed the easiest softball question possible, and she blew it, publicly. It wasn't even a question of whether those hateful little Hamas-loving bigots would be disciplined
or silenced. It was simply whether the Nazi-style language used was "incompatible" with the university's basic commitment to human dignity, which, of course, it is. No sympathy here at all, and I hope the same happens at Harvard and MIT right quick.
I was disappointed (probably shouldn't have been surprised) that almost all of the outrage over the testimony was that they wouldn't condem hate speech against Jews. Both sides, Republicans and Democrats want to have to right to censor speech they don't like. All pretenses of Free Speech are out the window.
All pretenses of Free Speech are out the window.
yes, quite some time ago they were. And by "Republicans and Democrats" I presume that includes "college administrators" (whatever end of the political spectrum they hail from).
Why the fuck should I respect the free speech rights of people that do not believe or allow mine?
By your formulation and spineless enforcement you'd allow only one side of any issue to have a voice while the other is censored and imprisoned and you'd call that a good compromise on free speech. Fuck capitulation to these marxist twats.
Yeah, it was disappointing. I really wanted them called to task for their lack of a consistent principle, and perhaps whether the same generosity and grace could be extended to students and professors with slightly not-all-the-way-left viewpoints.
What happened instead was a desire to clamp down on even more speech because genocide is wrong.
I think the bigger thing is it wasn't her hypocrisy or speech codes. She was fired by a private university because the board of trustees felt her answers hurt the brand. Which is their right and arguably the duty. It is like AB reassigning the market director who hurt sales. Just because they are universities does not mean they are not also businesses. According to reports these presidents actions have cost these universities hundreds of millions of dollars, possibly billions, of donations and has also possibly impacted student recruitment (there is some indication that Jewish students in particular are rethinking the advisability of attending these universities). As such, while we can decry Congress holding hearings (yeah, that can be considered jawboning) the firing of one or more of these presidents is not a free speech action, it's a protecting the brand action.
Something a lot of companies really need to consider. Iger I'm looking at you.
First Amendment, Reason, FIRE, and the Kalven Report -- all good. Calls for "genocide" are not illegal. But any private corporation can legitimately prohibit (hence internally sanction) members from proclaiming "Some our members should be killed." The genocide call -- if anyone were to make it -- is different from "river to the sea" or "intifada." It's not abstract or even political; it says members fitting an ascriptive birth/religious description should be killed. Hard to imagine Harry Kalven running a community of scholars with that one. (Of course, this doesn't mean the 3 college presidents knew what they were talking about.)
LarryC has it exactly right, and Sullum misses the point entirely. Private universities have the right, perhaps the obligation, to oblige students and faculty to use their privileged status for the promotion of something like the "good." That should include the pursuit of truth and dissemination of knowledge (free speech to the hilt) but also other values such as "civic virtue," "beauty," and "excellence." It is entirely appropriate to require students to accept and adhere to fundamental core values of decency and to face punishment if they don't. While calling for genocide, in the absence of an imminent threat of unlawful action, may be protected speech under the 1st Amendment, no college should be required to allow its community members to advocate for genocide or other profoundly immoral acts or policies. The Enlightenment ideals that most Reason subscribers cherish are not self-executing or self-sustaining. Universities have a right to promote those ideals, which includes the right to censure members of the university community who speak out against or act against them. The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It does not require that universities give those who seek its demise and those who advocate morally despicable policies and actions protected status. Our colleges and universities have become moral and philosophical wastelands, consumed by unscientific, nihilistic post-modernism and untethered from the Enlightenment principles that justify their existence. There is a difference between inquiry and advocacy. The right to full and open inquiry is what must be protected for universities to flourish and serve their intended function but, in fact, the leftist ideologies that so dominate the academy are systematically stifling real open inquiry. Addressing that problem, however, does not require that universities protect or condone community members who advocate genocide, or justify defending administrators who are so removed from reality that they think that the acceptability of advocating genocide, to the university and its mission, can only be judged in context. Genocide should be deemed antithetical to a university's mission, and its advocacy should be subject to censure.
Calling for Palestine to be "free" (of Israelis) from "the river to the sea" is bad enough on its own, but it's really the call to take the "intifada" global -- i.e., start attacking Jewish students on campus -- that should get students expelled.
More Jews should live in the south.
Try that shit down here.
Is that like ‘try that in a small town ‘ because I’ve been informed that is hate speech. Coincidentally, by many of the same idiots chanting 'from the river to the sea' etc.
"So if Magill et al. agreed that "calling for the genocide of Jews" always qualifies as punishable harassment, they would be committed to penalizing students for speech that is clearly protected by their schools' official policies as well as the First Amendment."
Not so fast, Sullum. The classic example of non-protected speech is shouting "FIRE!!" in a crowded theater. What the intifadans are doing isn't exactly that. Instead, it's shouting "SET THE THEATER ON FIRE!!!" in a crowded theater, knowing that some people there will actually do just that.
There might be a distinction, but it's a distinction without a difference. If the first isn't protected, neither should the second be.
Actually the whole "shouting fire in a crowded theater" story is not a court ruled exception to 1A. It is dicta. look it up.
The problem was not defending free speech, but disingenuously defending their double standard. Say in a 10 year old tweet that a man can’t become a woman and your career is over. Be in a mob calling for the death of all the Jews in Israel and it’s merely robust debate.
Can’t have it both ways. Well, shouldn’t, anyway. And in light of Penn’s treatment of Amy Wax, Magill’s case is particularly egregious.
The only other question I have here is... why does Reason keep fighting kultur warr hurr durr? All this free speech stuff makes my head hurt, man.
Republicans keep pouncing. Reason replies.
Sullum. If I slap one of my kids across the face and lock him under the stairs because he's pestering his brother, I'm not defending my children. These people aren't defending anyone's free speech they're exploiting political divides to abuse their power the same way you are complicit in destroying a well-informed populace.
Fuck the lot of you. At this point, watching you retards get cannibalized by the same flock of animals you whipped up into a rabid frenzy isn't even funny. It's just nature taking its course.
Magill was forced to resign and rightly did so, not for her incompetent defence of free speech but for her previous intolerance of free speech. If you only tolerate free speech when directed against certain disapproved groups, you're opposed to it.
I agree with this. And I would add that it’s been obvious for years that is exactly the standard that Universities have been living by.
She was forced to resign because her statements failing to condemn calls for genocide were going to cost the university hundreds of millions (or possibly billions) in forgone donations.
Which, since she was president of a private university kind of destroys the whole 'muh free speech' argument. Once your actions harm the brand, it is only right that you get fired. All three of these universities are private institutions. How many times has reason hand waved away cancelling as 'muh private company'. Yes, if Sollum had accused the congresswoman of jawboning he would have a point, because it could legitimately be argued these hearings were little different than the actions taken against social media companies to censor users. That would be a much better argument than she was fired for defending free speech. No, she was fired for hurting the brand.
We embrace a commitment to free expression even of views that are objectionable, offensive, [and] hateful,” Gay said… “the content of student speech or expression is not by itself a basis for disciplinary action.”
The problem here, Jacob, is that these statements are transparent lies, and that you obviously can see that and are being disingenuous.
They would've been able to use the "We support freedom of Speech" standard if they always used it, but none of these universities do, there are special snowflake groups that can't be criticized so saying free speech sounded like the BS that it was.
So now they have went beyond taking free speech, they demand you take their side or else. No one should be forced to condemn anyone's speech. It is not the job of Universities to tell people what they can and can't say.
They've been treating it like it's their job for the past 10+ years. And under current federal law, it may well be, when the speech creates an atmosphere of harassment against federally protected groups (such as religious or ethnic affiliation).
Author has fallen down and hurt his head. That they only allow free speech when it agrees with their biases has been apparent. The final straw was that they decided that it doesn't apply if the group isn't oppressed.
A very old joke: American:”I have the right to denounce Ronald Reagan!”
Russian: “So what? I have the right to denounce Ronald Reagan too!”
American: Now I can denounce Putin but not Zelensky.
Russian: In Russia Zelensky denounces you.
I've heard a variation on that theme.
A Texan was on a guided tour of Paris when they came across graffiti that said 'Go Home Yankees'. The tour guide gets all apologetic for it to which the Texan replies 'That's okay Ma'am, where I come from, we don't much like them either.'
Hmm? It's in context that the reaction isn't remotely puzzling.
For the president of the university with the single worst record on free speech in the nation to claim that they "embrace a commitment to free expression even of views that are objectionable, offensive, [and] hateful" is utterly risible. So, in context, we know Gay was simply lying when she said that.
Accordingly, we can logically conclude from that her actual belief is that there's nothing objectionable, offensive, or hateful about being pro-Hamas. And that she intends to continue to run Harvard in a manner that actively promotes the agenda of tyrannical war criminals openly committed to genocide, while suppressing speech that she doesn't like.
Given that you know that context well enough to mention it in your own piece above, one wonders whether you're simply too stupid to work that out, or whether you're pretending ignorance in an effort to preserve the left-wing anti-speech status quo at Harvard.
Regardless of how the witnesses answered, the problem is the uneven and unfair application of the university policies. If calling for the genocide of the Jews is not threatening but saying that a person with a penis is a male is threatening and punishable under those policies, then the university clearly has a problem. The uneven application of those policies is the problem, not the particular response to the questions by Congress critters who were just as wrong in their opinions as the University Presidents were.
The context is that violence against Jews is up over 300%. And Jews were already the most common victims by a huge margin. That makes these calls for genocide certainly harassment, borderline terrorism.
Republicans pouncing with Democrats joining the pouncing.
So Penn (and maybe Harvard) needs a new president. See if you are qualified by taking this short quiz.
A student group calls for the extermination of:
1. Jews and other Israel supports.
2. White people in general.
3. Black people.
Match the correct official university response:
A. Praise and high grades.
B. Marching in solidarity with the students.
C. Censorship.
D. Expulsion.
A few issues.
First, 1A is great, but Harvard is not the government and as a private institution it must consistently apply its written policies uniformly to all faculty, staff, and students, which it has not done. In suddenly discovering “free speech” to defend genocide when they have punished and censored much more anodyne speech, they have demonstrated discriminatory bias against the interests of a specific ethnic demographic. They are in a clear breech of contract with their Jewish students. It underscores rank hypocrisy.
Second, while private corporations are not government and bound specifically by the 1A, they are obligated to take decisive action against all forms of harassment and to ensure they do not have a hostile environment for some or all faculty, staff, and students. Threatening speech need not rise to the level of incitement to action to create a hostile environment. Failing to take action in that context opens them up to civil suits, and potentially civil rights complaints.
Third, the author blithely omits the totality of the circumstances these threatening statements, ergo calls for genocide, were made in. When the physical behavior and unreasonably dysregulated emotional tenor (e.g. straight up rage) of those calling for genocide is targeted at Jewish students on campus, and when we see assaults, hounding, and harassment of those students in tandem with those calls fore genocide, it ceases to be merely threatening and crosses a line into openly criminal conduct (even without the calls for genocide). Again, in failing to take action the campuses have opened themselves up, rightly so, to civil action.
Lastly, the author’s refusal to take all of these things into account and focus on the narrow 1A lens is obtuse and reductionist. Free speech restrictions should be narrowly constructed, but those aren’t the only legal or cultural issue in play here. The students have a right to call for genocide without fear of the GOVERNMENT taking action against them. The universities, however, have a legal AND MORAL obligation to take action against them.
As do employers whose employees make such statements in the workplace. As do private individuals, who have no obligation to sit idly by and listen to that immoral, monstrous, and vile sort of expression. The government cannot and should not punish them for it because of the 1A, but the author is dead wrong that society as a whole can’t bring a whole host of consequences to bear on them for their utter lack of moral character and human decency. In fact, society and its institutions should utterly crush them for calls for genocide.
On what planet is that not patently obvious to the meanest of understandings?
You articulate a few solid ideas. The one I agree with the most is these protest have definitely crossed from protests into threatening behavior and or targeted harassment. Additionally, the concept of free speech means the government cannot ban speech, not that you can't be punished for speech by an employer or, a private university. Congress holding hearings, on the other hand, can be argued to be a form of jawboning and Sollum should have focused on that aspect, only, instead of going with she was fired for speaking up for free speech. She only spoke up for free speech when it was the radical left, ergo since her past actions have not shown any inclinations to truly Believe in free speech, her defense of free speech her is nothing but crocodile tears.
“Defending freedom of expression…” Is that what you call what they have been doing for the past 10 years?
Even free speech absolutists might draw the line at death threats (or calls for genocide, or taking the “intifadah” global -- code for attacking Jewish students on campus, some even put out a map with targets). Constitutionalists might point out that a university accepting federal government money has a legal obligation to maintain a safe atmosphere for people of all religions and ethnicities.
If a group of right wing students marched across campus saying “from the Atlantic to the Pacific, America will be white” (or straight, or whatever), do you honestly think the Harvard, Penn and MIT Presidents would wring their hands and say “sorry, it’s not action, there’s nothing we can do?”
It is outrageous that a member of Congress, the institution that the First Amendment explicitly refers to, would try to pressure the people in charge of universities, which are public forums even if non-governmental ones, to impose rules that he knows governmental bodies are forbidden to impose themselves. Truly an attempt at "censorship by proxy". And yes, the preceding testimony made it clear that Stefanik was defining as "call[s] for the genocide of Jewish people" things that were not necessarily such. Magill should have stood her ground. Will Stefanik face any consequences for his aggressive attempt at censorship by proxy?
They’re not necessarily calls only if youre a fucking moron who shouts slogans without knowing what the fuck they mean. That might have been a defense in the first week, I didn't know what I was calling for, but it's been pointed out ad nauseam what those slogans actually mean, so there is no longer any doubt as to what those slogans mean. They are a clear call for genocide, period. Trying to act as if they are not is just bullshit at this point. There is no ambigiouity anymore. It's been two months and it's been addressed as to what those slogans mean. Trying to pretend otherwise is dishonest and disingenuous.
and appeared to evade the question
lol, you guys.
Since Penn’s policy (like the First Amendment) generally protects even “hate speech,” Magill could not give Stefanik the simple answer she demanded.
Which is why Stefanik should have replaced “jews” with “muslims” (or “gays” or “blacks”) when she originally asked the question. She would have immediately gotten the answer, then she could then follow up with “jews.”
But we like to elect dumb idiots, so. :/
How much does Sollum really believe they are defending the principles of free speech, or just utilizing it for cover? Does he truly believe if it was a Christian group chanting Leviticus 20:13 that they would answer 'its about the context' and contend even abhorrent speech is protected? If he does not, than his assertion that they were defending free speech is dishonest and providing cover for their obvious hypocrisy. Sure, criticize Congress for these hearings (which are bordering on, if not outright crossing over into violating the 1A) but don't piss on my head and tell me that it's raining. They obviously were not defending free speech they simply used it as cover.
You keep misrepresenting this as "hate speech". It's mobs of people chanting for the genocide and extermination of Jews, all the while physically harassing them.
Once speech is used to call for violence and used to intimidate people, it crosses the line from free speech
Yes, if they weren't targeting Jewish students, intimidating them etc, you could argue free speech, but the aforementioned acts definitely are not protected speech.
Riley Gaines giving a speech advocating that only biological women should compete in women only sporting competitions is protected speech. Riley Gaines gathering a mob outside the locker room where a tranny is changing and shouting for said tranny's death is not.
Glad to see her go. She is a spineless coward. All three of them were, frankly. They wouldn't stand for the principle of free speech in any consistent way before this show trial in Congress. And when they actually did, they apologized and backtracked afterwards. No one knew what they really stood for, because they don't stand for anything.
How would you have replied to the questions?
Unfortunately, she STILL has a tenured position, teaching. The punishment was not enough. The lot of them should be put on probation without pay for a year or more.
Note, these women are all Affirmative Action hires. Gay (harvard prez) has even been found to have plagiarized sections of her dissertation.
Fortunately, many wealthy donors are pulling their funding. THIS will get the attention of the governing Boards.
A lot of people seem to confuse the 1st Amendment, which provides speech protections from government restrictions and private college/university speech policies, which are usually significantly more restrictive than what the 1st Amendment allows. Does it make sense for Congress to question university presidents on how well private universities are enforcing their speech policies on campus? That's a whole other question. There does seem to be a real dichotomy in how these policies are enforced on campuses based on university views of oppressor/oppressed classes. Non LGBTQ Jews, Asians and whites are viewed as oppressors, not needing protection from harassment, whereas people of color and LGBTQ people are viewed as oppressed and in need of extra protection. Universities would never allow people to openly talk about committing genocide of one of the oppressed (privileged) classes.
After Resisting Demands To Punish 'Hate Speech,' Penn's President Capitulated. It Did Not Save Her Job.
A university is a professional, academic environment (or should be). Violations of professional conduct and the values of the institution should result in termination.
Since Harvard terminates people for using the wrong pronoun but doesn't terminate people for calling for the genocide of Jews, we know clearly now what their values are.
Yes. As long as it isn't leading to violence, it is just showing the normies what we've been saying for years now. There is absolutely nothing 'liberal' about the left. They're all little Eichmans with a hint of Mao and Stalin thrown in. Congress shouldn't have held hearings but it is also good that they are now on record, so the next time Harvard cancels someone like Peterson or Gaines we can point to this and say 'what happened to your defense of free speech'. Let the normies see how evil these institutions have become. Little indoctrination camps. These are the true reeducation camps of our times.
You guys are failing to distinguish people who uphold and defend free speech, people who don't observe free speech, people who oppose it, and people who intentionally abuse it.
People in the "do not observe" or "oppose" group can still be reasoned with. They still recognize objective facts even if they prioritize other facts above free speech. You might have to find the right keywords or the right top man to say the keywords to, but they acknowledge that people need to discuss harm caused by bad policies to come up with new ones. The abusers, OTOH, there are no keywords or right top men, they will use free speech to advocate stabbing people to death and, whenever anyone shows up, impugn free speech for their motives and actions the way they would a firearm, knife, or other inanimate object. To them, free speech isn't an abstract social construct and biology and biological death a fixed, provable, observable fact. To them, free speech is violence and killing someone's abstract social construct is firmament.
See Dan S. "When are we going to punish our government officials for questioning calls of genocide?" post above. The 1A says, "Congress shall make no law" not "Congress can ask no questions".
She shouldn't get credit for trying to protect free speech, since she only protects speech she agrees with.
It’s not an easy thing to camouflage a lie. The DEI tribe has long known of the duplicity in it’s code. What we witnessed at the hearing was, well, the “ tangled web weaved” problem.
On even- numbered days, the tribe dutifully proscribed all attacks or insults against its own members, and any trivial defense like free speech was readily ridiculed. On odd- numbered days, however, similar attacks against non- members were suddenly protected speech. Thus, “ river to the sea” became a harmless ode.
That’s the problem with erecting fake Utopias- somebody or something always has to suffer, even if it’s the truth.
The desire to protect students from disliked speech -- on the grounds that it makes them "feel" unsafe -- is not only inappropriate, it is remarkably similar to Stand Your Ground laws, by which subjective and invisible feelings provide legal immunity from prosecution for criminal acts.
Calling something "hate speech" alone does not justify attempts to prohibit the speech.
US government just loves to punish people. American, incarceration leader of the world. With elections coning up, I can't decide whether I prefer democratic or republican punishment.
I'll take "incarceration leader of the world" over "disappears/enslaves their citizens leader of the world" like those oh-so-noble Russians and Chicoms. Or "executes them in the street immediately upon seeing objectionable behavior, or just for the heck of it leader of the world" such as is the case with Muslim society and large swaths of Latin America.
I'm surprised (and disappointed) that Reason didn't get one central point: There is no such thing as 'freedom of speech' on someone else's property. When you are in the university, you must abide by their rules. Just like a group of misanthropes cannot go into some church and start chanting/yelling en mass, it's not their property.