The 'Monster' Isn't the Drug, It's the Prohibition
Intoxicating drugs never do as much damage as the laws that impotently attempt to eradicate them.

If you remember headlines about angel dust and crack, you know that drug panics are nothing new. From time to time an intoxicating drug is rediscovered or newly synthesized, or old ones are consumed in new ways, leading to public fascination and forecasts of doom. We've seen that recently with widespread attention paid to fentanyl and tranq, and a recent article in The New York Times about "super meth" and "polysubstance use."
The November 13 Times piece headlined "'A Monster': Super Meth and Other Drugs Push Crisis Beyond Opioids" consists of a high panic to substance ratio. As Reason's Jacob Sullum pointed out, "super meth" is not new, but represents a return to making methamphetamine from phenyl-2-propanone (P2P) the way the Hell's Angels did in the past before illicit manufacturers started deriving it from pseudoephedrine. Now that allergy medications containing pseudoephedrine are strictly controlled, underground labs have returned to old techniques.
Well, of course. Black market operators always innovate to work around laws and law enforcers.
The rest of the of the article, on the simultaneous consumption of several drugs, is equally unremarkable, though outcomes remain as unfortunate as ever.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Speedball By Another Name
"The United States is in a new and perilous period in its battle against illicit drugs," writes the Times's Jan Hoffman. "The scourge is not only opioids, such as fentanyl, but a rapidly growing practice that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention labels 'polysubstance use.'"
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Intentional polysubstance use occurs when a person takes a drug to increase or decrease the effects of a different drug or wants to experience the effects of the combination." If you're wondering if this is really a new thing that never occurred to anybody before, the answer is a big, fat "no".
John Belushi "died March 5, 1982, of an accidental overdose of heroin and cocaine — known as a 'speedball,'" the Chicago Sun-Times observed in 2020 after the death of Cathy Smith, who injected the comedian with that asking-for-trouble cocktail.
Mixing fentanyl and meth, or downers and uppers of all sorts, or any type of mutually reinforcing intoxicants is an old practice for aficionados of the perfect high. Done with moderation, you might end up with caffè corretto—Italy's "corrected coffee" with booze added to espresso. Done to excess, you could get a junky face down in an alley—or a famous comedian DOA in an expensive hotel room. The problem is that prohibition encourages stronger drugs which can be more easily smuggled in small packages, and illicit manufacturing produces products of unreliable purity and potency.
Iron Law of Prohibition
People who disapprove of drugs want to end their use, but consumers have never demonstrated a willingness to comply. Sellers always arise to meet their demand. Drug innovation to evade prohibitionists, and making cocktails of those drugs, is inherently more dangerous than legal markets.
"Hoffman's report brings to mind a 2018 University of Pittsburgh study I frequently cite, showing the overdose death rate has been on a steady exponential growth trend since at least 1979, with different drugs in fashion and predominating among overdose deaths at different times," comments Jeffrey Singer, an Arizona-based surgeon and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, in response to the Times piece.
Singer attributes endless innovation in ever-stronger drugs and the rise in resulting overdoses to the competition between prohibitionists and illicit suppliers to outwit one another.
"The iron law of prohibition — 'the harder the law enforcement, the harder the drug'—means we can expect more potent and dangerous forms of drugs to continue to arise," he adds.
If you blend "more potent and dangerous forms of drugs" in "polysubstance use" (or just speedball it) you're going to add risks on top of risks. The results can be tragic, but they're less the result of drugs than they are of restrictions and prohibitions that inevitably drive consumers to seek intoxicants from illegal suppliers. For a good illustration, let's revisit the "super meth" piece in the Times.
"Like opioids, which originally came from the poppy, meth started out as a plant-based product, derived from the herb ephedra. Now, both drugs can be produced in bulk synthetically and cheaply. They each pack a potentially lethal, addictive wallop far stronger than their precursors," Hoffman wrote.
Why grow a crop in a field, which can be targeted for destruction by prohibitionists, when you can synthesize the active ingredients in a hidden laboratory that's difficult to find and can be moved if necessary? And if you're going to synthesize it, why not find ways to make it more concentrated so that large numbers of doses can be moved in compact shipments? You can always cut it at the distribution end and sell it in lower-concentration doses.
Unfortunately, illicit laboratories aren't always as reliable as aboveboard ones and underground chemists aren't necessarily as competent or diligent. When somebody screws up or just doesn't care, it's much harder to hold a criminal network to account than it is to go after a corporation that has a mailing address and a reputation to maintain. The end result, for the drug trade, is illness and death from intoxicants of unknown purity and potency, if the formulation was even safe to begin with.
"Until policymakers come to terms with the fact that the polydrug overdose crisis and the 'second meth epidemic' are the latest manifestations of drug prohibition, the cycle of harder enforcement yielding harder drugs and new drug 'epidemics' will continue," adds Singer.
Prohibitionists Never Learn
Unfortunately, this is a mistake that policymakers have been making seemingly forever, through the rise of illegal markets, the adoption of veterinary medications for recreational use, the diversion of anesthetics and tranquilizers, and the innovations of chemists in underground laboratories. From heroin to crack to meth to fentanyl to tranq and everything in between, battles between prohibitionists and those wanting to limit the scope of people's choices are never won by the control freaks. The 18th Amendment and U.S. Prohibition of alcoholic beverages stand as monuments to their failures.
People have always wanted to alter their consciousness in ways great and small. They will continue to want to get high no matter how much disapproval their activities draw from sober scolds. The only question is whether those getting high will acquire their intoxicants of choice from legal, responsible suppliers who have to maintain their brands and explain themselves in court, or from illegal suppliers who meet demand by any means necessary.
So long as prohibitionists keep up their efforts, there will always be another "super meth" cocktail around the corner.
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Super HFCS would take out at least of few of the commentariat.
Or at least cut them off at the ankles.
Who would foot the responsibility?
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Simply false... WHY do people seek out such things. You never ask.
Loneliness, cultural milieu, impulsivity...Open a porn shop in the next block and then people who never have and thought they never would...DO>
Reason doesn't see rape, sexual perversion, or drug-fed immaturity with a clear eye. You think that removing the 'obstacles' insures a free choice. For most, the first thing it does is remove choice.
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Are you saying that sarc’s efforts to stop drinking are hampered due to the state having repealed prohibition? He never had a choice because alcohol is available?
Be careful. You're almost being encouraging. You're supposed to be mean and discouraging. Otherwise you might get labeled a white knight for sarc. And there's nothing worse in these comments then being a white knight for sarc. May as well commit social suicide.
Lol. Where the fuck did you see encouragement on that?
Good to see you’re only getting sober to try to gain sympathy.
At least the victim hood addiction never faltered.
The fact that not one person has told you off for being a disgusting excuse for a human being says a lot about the general quality of the people in the comments.
What is disgusting sarc? Soft truths are lies that break sobriety. It is what leads to an addiction saying they didn’t drink for 2 weeks so they aren’t an addict anymore so they can have the one drink. I prefer harsh truth. Since you declared youre sobriety you’ve chosen to try to use it as a shield against attacks. You aren’t getting sober for the right reasons.
I’ve seen addiction. I’ve seen how soft truths limit sobriety. If you want to be sober, good for you. Do it for the right reasons and not as an attack vector against your perceived enemies.
I dont care if you stay sober or not. Harsh truth. I truly don’t.
lol if you prefered the truth you won't lie about everything.
And I don't believe that you don't care. You care a lot. You want me to fail, and you will continue to mock and deride me in the hope that I will fail. Because the only thing that builds you up is tearing other people down.
Cite for either of you assertions?
I dont anything you sarc. I dont care if you succeed or fail. But I will continue to laugh at your unearned delusional self evaluations.
Honest question. Do you know how interventions work? Is it family and friends hugging the addict saying how brave they are? The answer is no. Yet that is the behavior youre expecting for being sober for an entire 2 weeks. Addicts can’t be coddled. So you expecting that from strangers on the internet is mind boggling.
You’ve also earned every ounce of derision you get.
It is pretty hilarious to learn about your family through your projection. What a bunch of losers.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but none of that is going on here.
I'm just having fun while you show off what kind of a garbage human being you are.
When I quit smoking cigarettes I first had to want to, and then I just decided to be a non-smoker. That was it. No struggle or temptation, because non-smokers don't struggle with temptation.
I just did the same thing with drinking. No high-fives, no hugs, no crying, no nothing. I'm just a non-drinker now.
I know you're hoping and praying I'll start drinking again so you can hurl insults and mockery at me, because that's the kind of garbage human being you are, but I won't give you the pleasure.
If someone posted something mean to me about my comment, I wouldn’t get worked up about it.
Anyhow, I was trying to get clarity regarding the OP’s position whether they think folks have a level of free will or if the OP believes that availability of something results in its inevitable consumption/abuse.
"Open a porn shop in the next block and then people who never have and thought they never would…DO>"
Please tell me this is Poe's law in action. If not, it's an exact parallel to rape victims being blamed for getting raped because they wore sexy clothes.
Bad behavior is the responsibility if the offender, not the people who don't stop the offender from having the opportunity to offend.
Most people don’t do certain illegal things because they’re illegal. If a taboo/illegal thing suddenly becomes legal (even loses its taboo-ness), some people might be inclined to do the thing. It’s not rocket surgery. It's a terrible excuse for maintaining prohibition though.
Except that hasn't been the historical reaction to the end of prohibitions. There is a short-term uptick, then things return to roughly the same level as before.
People do things because they want to do them. There is a very small group who does things just because they aren't supposed to, but that isn't normal. If you don't want to do heroin when it's illegal, you aren't going to suddenly become a junkie because it's legal.
Trying drugs isn't rare. Getting hooked on drugs is. And there's a massive gap between the two where the vast majority of people exist. Just like legal alcohol doesn't create drunks, legal drugs don't create junkies.
It is as simple as Economics 101 supply and demand. Prohibitionists have a simple fixation on supply that ignores demand. People like to alter their brain chemistry. Coffee or an energy drink in the morning and a beer or cocktail at night to chill out. Let's move the focus to why people what to get high and work to better address that issue. Reduce demand, because the suppliers are not going out of business.
"Let’s move the focus to why people what to get high and work to better address that issue."
Tons of reasons "why"... Genetics, environment (culture, upbringing)... Biochemically programmed PLEASURE when certain receptors are stimulated! But don't forget, "rebelling"! I am a Bad Boy, and my many would-be girlfriends? Many of them are IMPRESSED by me being a rule-ignoring Bad Boy! So FLAUNT my disobedience? Hell yeah! Rules are for the weenies and the little people! (We see that all the time, among all sorts of "successful" people, "leaders" in business and politics, even religion.)
Anyway, we should NOT be surprised when, as often is the case, for example, "pot" use actually goes DOWN, among young people especially, after it is legalized.
Biochemically programmed PLEASURE when certain receptors are stimulated? Can NOT be fixed, short of genetically re-engineering us all!
Supply-side policies always fail, whether it's economics or drugs.
Before you're going to successfully reduce demand, you have to have a coherent message for why the demand is bad. When all the documented harms of altering your brain chemistry come from the attempts at prohibition, you have utterly failed to make the required case.
So why, precisely, is getting high (in an environment with no prohibition) bad?
"People have always wanted to alter their consciousness in ways great and small. They will continue to want to get high no matter how much disapproval their activities draw from sober scolds."
That prohibition may have perverse effects on society, but "altering one's consciousness" has deleterious effects on the person which eventually has bad effects on society as shown by the current homeless crisis. Chronic recreational drug use is not an action with neutral effects on society. With enough people falling to such behavior, it is a serious detriment to the quality of life for everyone else.
The thing is that very people really fall into such serious behavior as you are concerned about. If we put our focus on mental health and stopping unwanted behavior, we would do better than trying to stop all illegal drugs. Focus on the demand side and the supply side will respond.
The vast majority of drug users are functional members of society.
I bet you have friends and family who use drugs, but you'd never know because they are careful and responsible.
Call for clarity: Individuals within the populace should be focused on the mental health and unwanted behavior. Prohibition is the specific result of the government focusing on general well being and stopping unwanted behavior, which it shouldn't really be doing.
Otherwise, and even kinda not, this is a distinction without a difference. A government that can send derelict drunks and crackheads to reeducation centers and produce sober, fully functional, and well socialized accountants, lawyers, and engineers isn't really substantially different, and almost certainly not better, than one that simply takes their drug of abuse away.
"A government that can send derelict drunks and crackheads to reeducation centers and produce sober, fully functional, and well socialized accountants, lawyers, and engineers..."
Show me a Government Almighty that can do that reliably (or invent such a Government Almighty), and I will vote for You ass the Jesus Christ Who Has Returned To Us To Save Us All!
Show me a Government Almighty that can do that reliably (or invent such a Government Almighty), and I will vote for You ass the Jesus Christ Who Has Returned To Us To Save Us All!
The same government that, through provisional upzoning thinks it can create a slew of sub $300 a month apartments in a town where the average rent is $3300, and all those derelict drunks and crackheads will suddenly toss out the crack pipe, reach into their pockets and pay that monthly sub $300 rent while working at their accounting, lawyer or coding job.
How many of the addicts in Portland sought out mental health treatment the legalization law offered for free?
Maybe KAR did and that’s why he doesn’t show up here anymore.
The sober scolds just don't want their shit stolen, their property damaged, or their physical bodies to be assaulted. For the most part. That is behind most drug laws. Don't agree with it. But we see the negative costs of addiction in most blue cities. Not sure why that argument has to be ignored instead of addressed and countered.
The sober scolds just don’t want their shit stolen, their property damaged, or their physical bodies to be assaulted.
This may come as a shock to you, but those things are already crimes.
This may come as a shock to you but they are often driven by addiction. San fran has had numerous examples of pipes to the face and stabbings due to homeless being high.
Do you really think drugs don't drive crime?
By that logic alcohol should be illegal. It drives more crime than all other drugs combined.
I see you can't comprehend simple statements. I already said use should not be a crime twice in this very thread.
But ignoring out the negative externalities should not occur either. This seems to be the basis for most of your politics however.
This seems to be the basis for most of your politics however.
It sure is the basis for most of your strawmen.
If you didn’t lie about what I say you wouldn’t have anything to argue against.
I agree with you, the argument shouldn't be ignored. So, let's find a way to address the argument in a manner that respects the rights of the 'sober scolds', respects the rights of the drug users, and that does not reinstitute authoritarian drug laws. Sound good to you?
With enough people falling to such behavior, it is a serious detriment to the quality of life for everyone else.
You are exactly right. Even under a libertarian regime, social problems do not just magically vanish. The libertarian solution is for voluntary organizations to address these social problems. These voluntary organizations however require volunteers and donations and resources to conduct their work. If they can't get the resources, the social problems go unmet, and the calls to reverse the libertarian regime and reinstitute the authoritarian controls grow.
"With enough people falling to such behavior, it is a serious detriment to the quality of life for everyone else."
Even assuming to the sake of argument that is true, prohibition has proven over and over to be the cure worse than the disease.
"bad effects on society as shown by the current homeless crisis"
The homeless crisis is about drugs? Was there a spike in homelessness when the drug we call alcohol was legalized?
Homelessness is far more about mental health than drugs. While self-medication is a common coping mechanism, it isn't the cause of the problem.
You are confusing cause and effect. Yes, we have a mental health crisis. It is correlated with drug use because those who are mentally ill are attempting to self-medicate because existing services/treatments either don't work or have adverse side-effects.
With a very few exceptions, there is no evidence that drug use causes mental illness. That means prohibition can have no impact on mental illness other than possibly exacerbating it by denying the subset of self-medicating attempts that are successful.
It's a morality issue. Many believe that getting high from chemicals is unnatural, and therefore immoral. No amount of facts, evidence, logic or reason can convince someone to change their morality.
Yup-yup-yo and a bottle of rum! It's like religion... It is infinitely more moral and Righteous to be a Good Christian, than to be be a pre-Christian pagan WITCH, who casts spells, ruins our crops, and kills our babies and newborn animals!!! BURN the witches!!!
Ask for the data-driven EVIDENCE about that them thar WITCHES, and ye get NOTHING, other than suspicious stares!
New era, same old shit!
Pre-Christian Rome, regarded a man with a reputation for moral excess, including drink, as being somewhat less than human. Moderation and self-disclipline against hedonistic tendencies were valued. This is not just an Abrahamic religion thing.
All sensible people since time immemorial have treasured moderation in all things... Now it is also wise to be moderate in your moderation! USA alcohol prohibition was moderation gone immoderate, as the same thing it is in Islamic nations today. And the root cause of this immoderate alcohol prohibition was and is one and the same... Religion run amuck! The Romans were smarter than that! So have most nations, in most times!
Striving for a society of moderation is admirable. Forcing it on society at the barrel end of a gun, not so much.
Wait a minute, didn't the Romans torture and kill people for entertainment? Oh well, I guess in moderation...
My point was that you cannot simply dismiss the argument against hedonism as being a Christian innovation imposed on humanity.
I see. Sorry, I missed your point.
I'm pretty sure that the "immorality" argument comes from witnessing the lives of drug addicts.
There's certainly an argument to be made that certain levels and forms of the cure are worse than the disease but I don't think any serious person thinks blanket legalization of drugs has a positive effect on society. People cannot be allowed to be zonked out of their mind to the point where it starts to harm others around them.
So then THIS is why booze needs to be outlawed again? More power to the bootleggers!!!
I don’t think any serious person thinks blanket legalization of drugs has a positive effect on society.
Most libertarians do. I do. Why wasn't drug use a plague on society 100 years ago the way it is today?
Yes, this! Drug warriors conveniently ignore or forget that cocaine and opiates were easily purchased legally, in the USA, way back before the do-gooders had it their way!
It was so out of control 100 years ago that they pushed through a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol. I'm not saying that Prohibition worked or that it was even a good idea implemented badly, but to pretend like there wasn't a problem it was trying to address is willful naivete.
This. The anti-prohibition movement seems to think that admitting that recreational drug use causes any societal problems undermines their argument, and therefore will strenuously insist that the yellow liquid soaking the public’s trousers is rain. For instance, in the APEC article below, San Francisco's homelessness problem is exclusively explained by a lack of affordable housing.
No need for straw man. I can't speak for everyone, but I acknowledge that drug use is often problematic and imposes costs on society, but prohibition exacerbates those problems as well as creating new ones.
Many would argue the threat of jail actually limits the people who seek out new drugs. Scarcity to drive away from addiction. I've never seen a conclusive study on it. But I have seen drug use increase in Oregon and Colorado post legalization.
I agree that prohibition does reduce use, and has likely saved some would-be addicts from a dismal end. My argument is that the cost is too high, both monetarily and in terms of the collateral harms.
“But I have seen drug use increase in Oregon and Colorado post legalization.”
As I understand it there was a short uptick in use, then levels returned to where they were before legalization. The difference is that you’re seeing it more now since decriminalization.
Seeing it, literally. What used to be hidden is now in sight. Think about the difference in visibility between a drug dealer and a dispensary.
Yes, there was a problem. And the solution made the situation worse so evidently and so quickly that the "solution" was repealed with overwhelming support.
The straw that broke Prohibition's back, though was a federal government hungry for alcohol tax revenue in the midst of the Great Depression.
Sure it was. There was no anti-Prohibition sentiment in America, it was all about taxes.
Seriously?
For some reason we are expected to ignore the negative costs of drugs. I'm not for use crimes. But I can still recognize the costs. For some they refuse to. I dont even think a DUI should be a crime. They should be enhancers to other crimes. Crimes with victims. Same as using a weapon in a crime. Because the drugs do drive crime.
Pretending all negative externities associated with drugs is caused by the law is just sophomoric.
For some reason we are expected to ignore the negative costs of drugs.
Jesse, you make the same type of argument when it comes to immigration.
Literally no one in this discussion is ignoring the negative costs of drugs. The rest of us are simply pointing out that there are other factors to consider as well. You seem to want us to give overwhelming consideration to the costs that you perceive of drug addiction and to minimize/ignore the other factors that WE are considering. Just like you do when we discuss immigration-related issues as well.
"It was so out of control 100 years ago"
Really? How was it "out of control"?
A hundred years ago the USA was three years into alcohol Prohibition which was implemented on first wave feminist concerns about the bad effects of drunkeness.
Oh. How did that work out?
I did not say it worked out well. I was saying that there was a problem it was trying to address.
Yes and my point is that the way they addressed it, with prohibition, made the situation worse. Same for drug use today.
"I was saying that there was a problem it was trying to address."
The "problem" was drunkenness. That isn't something the government should be addressing. Millions of people get drunk all the time and don't do anything "bad". Millions of people get high and never do anything "bad".
Why are the crimes perpetrated by drunks attributed to the drinker, but the crimes of the stoned get attributed to the drug? Why the double standard?
No one is saying that Prohibition was good. They are refuting your claim that drugs weren't a problem 100 years ago. They absolutely were, to an even greater extent than they were today perhaps.
No one is saying that Prohibition was good.
uh huh....
They are refuting your claim that drugs weren’t a problem 100 years ago. They absolutely were, to an even greater extent than they were today perhaps.
I strongly disagree.
Poorly.
Legalization in places like Portland has worked out equally terribly.
There has been no legalization in Portland or anywhere else in the US.
Legalization = legal markets
legalization for use or selling, two intersecting things but not the same.
That's like saying alcohol was legal under Prohibition because they didn't bust people for consuming it. All they did was ban the importation, production, distribution and sale of alcohol. So it was in effect legal.
Nobody is punished for selling. Nobody is punished for consuming. Nobody is punished for any part of the entire transaction.
It is legal, for all intents and purposes.
And Portland is a shithole. And the problems are fucking over everybody else. A small group of pathetic addicts' desire to blow their own brains out does not and should not trump everybody else's desire to be left the fuck alone from the assorted riff-raff.
Under decriminalization, distribution is still a prosecutable offense. Enforcement is a separate issue.
Point being that decriminalization of drugs means they're as illegal as alcohol was during Prohibition.
Decriminalization is NOT legalization.
You also didn't have a million safety nets and emergency tax impositions to fund the excessive folks. I think sure let it be legal, but no austerity programs for those folks and two enforce the other laws that may be broken because they aren't going to magically become good people from it being legal that's something else within a person as the ones we think it's hurting probably isn't because they are good (this is aimed at homeless or on the edge because that's usually what this discussion is about)
"People cannot be allowed to be zonked out of their mind to the point where it starts to harm others around them."
The problem is that people should be allowed to be "zonked out of their mind" as long as it doesn't harm others.
That's why laws restricting the "harm others around them" part are completely justified, but criminalizing being "zonked out of their mind" isn't.
This is very true. It is also true there are racial issues. Marijuana came from the black community. Psychedelic association with rock music.
And many of us do not care if you do drugs...but care deeply if I have to pay for your fucking idiotic decisions.
But we do. All of the time. We have to pay for tons of Narcam for police to have to deal with idiots who OD instead of doing the right thing and allowing them to die.
They made the choice.
There are people who can use alcohol responsibly and people who cannot. The same goes for other drugs. What you see are the worst of the worst. These are people who were likely going to self destruct anyway. Blaming the drugs is like blaming guns for suicides.
I am PAYING for the worst of the worst.
THAT is the problem.
You want to blow your brain out on drugs? Fine.
If I have to pay for it, rest assured, I'll do what I can to prevent me having to spend money on bullshit like that.
And you're paying for alcoholic derelicts as well. Do you think a return to Prohibition is the answer to that?
That I have to pay for some things I deeply disagree with is not an excuse to pay for even MORE things I deeply disagree with.
Kill somebody driving drunk? 1st degree murder. No ifs, and, or buts. Cause damage to property? Harshest penalty available under the law.
Imagine justifying alcoholism because youre already paying taxes that fund welfare. Lol. Yet he did.
I agree with you. We shouldn't have to pay. But consider that the price you're paying is likely higher due to prohibition. Prohibition drives up drug prices, fueling crime. Impure drugs of unknown potency drives up OD's and health problems. You pay for task forces, DEA and swat teams all to protect those worst of the worst. And you pay by loss of freedoms as the Bill of Rights was swiss cheesed by drug war exceptions. Oh then there's wrong address no knock raids, gotta pay for those too.
Don't forget jails, prisons, lost economic productivity while being locked up, forced rehab and counseling, not to mention social costs due to fathers being locked up.
People keep making these claims while ignoring cities that have largely legalized drugs such as Portland. They are assertions without evidence.
Addicts are not rational actors. They will always seek out bigger highs at lower costs. It drives import of new drugs such as fentanyl and zombie drugs. Yes addicts seek put these drugs. It only isn't found in laced drugs. There is still a black market for marijuana in most states.
Decriminalization is not legalization. Not by a long shot.
People keep making these claims while ignoring cities that have largely legalized drugs such as Portland. They are assertions without evidence.
Bull shit! Cities have decriminalized drug use. It is the black market and the government's attempt to control it that causes so much of the problems. Decriminalizing use without providing safe and legal markets is an absolute recipe for disaster. Increasing demand while criminalizing supply.
I'm pretty sure that Prohibition banned the production, importation, distribution and sale of alcohol, but not the consumption of it.
So JesseAz is saying that drugs are practically legal because they've got the same status that alcohol did during Prohibition.
Yes, good point.
Addicts are rational actors. It is just that what they value is skewed towards feeding their addiction, sometimes to the exclusion of almost everything else, including taking care of basic necessities.
Jesse, no one is ignoring the costs associated with things like homeless in Portland. Only that it isn't the only cost to consider.
Again, I point to the article below on SF clearing out the homeless in prepartion for APEC that only reason given for the homeless problem in San Francisco is a lack of affordable housing. Which ignores that a substantial part of homelessness is caused by some people prioritizing drug use over everything else.
It is the dog that did not bark.
Alcohol is quite legal and the expenses we bear due to it are not insignificant.
I fail to see how "We pay for this, so we should ALSO pay for that" is a solid argument for anything, personally.
You can list all of the ills. Having homeless addicts assaulting people, shitting all over the sidewalk (shall we go into the deaths that poor sanitation leads to?), ruining the city for everybody else is a larger expense.
If I had to pay NOTHING, I'd not give the first iota of a shit of what anybody does. But since the pain is spread, do not expect me to say "Go let your freak flag fly"
Alcohol is quite legal and the expenses we bear due to it are not insignificant.
Did prohibition make those expenses better or worse?
If I had to pay NOTHING, I’d not give the first iota of a shit of what anybody does.
Are you sure that prohibition is reducing those costs? After all you are describing problems that exist under prohibition. The burden of proof is on you and the state to give the government ownership of our bodies. Or are you just OK with paying more to punish behavior you don’t like because paying NOTHING is an option that defies human nature?
The government provides special rights to the addicts.
Shit on the sidewalk? Well, you don't know any better so no punishment for that.
Assault people? Well, you don't know any better so no punishment for that.
Again, you remove MY need to pay for ANYTHING associated with them, especially bringing them back from the death they seek, and we can discuss it.
Until you do, it is not going to happen. Ever.
The government provides special rights to the addicts.
I think we can all agree this is wrong, but a blue problem.
Again, you remove MY need to pay for ANYTHING associated with them especially bringing them back from the death they seek, and we can discuss it.
OK. I agree, but we know that's not a realistic possibility (he says while arguing for full drug legalization).
What I'd like to know is if you think prohibition as practiced in the US today, is increasing or decreasing the cost to you. Would there be more or less shitting on the streets under legalization? Would there be more or less bringing back from the brink of death under legalization? Would we have more or less tax burden without the billions/year that currently fund the drug war?
Or, do you not care, it is worth the possible extra cost to you to punish drug users?
Do I think prohibition increases costs? Yeah, probably.
But I look at what the attempts at legalization have led to and that is far worse than what we have now.
Like it or not, Portland is the poster child, for me, on what legalization does. And it is not something I would be remotely willing to tolerate.
Similar to how Soros DA's have killed off hopes for "criminal justice reform" (if that is the alternative...keep criminal justice as it was), Portland has severely and thoroughly damaged drug legalization.
Do I think prohibition increases costs? Yeah, probably.
OK. I appreciate that honest answer.
Portland is the poster child, for me, on what legalization does.
Portland did not legalize drugs. There is no legal market to manufacture, distribute or purchase drugs. I likewise have no interest in the Portland model. It is the worst of both worlds.
I think what he agrees with you on legalization, there's just no monetary support for bad choices. I think that seems pretty fair and should be in line with many folks here to reduce the imposition of taxes and increase the personal responsibility whether that's the user or the charities that want to support the users, but not by force just like the laws.
I don't know. If someone says, I'm all for freedom as soon as you meet this impossible threshold, they're not really for that freedom.
But is it freedom if everybody else is obligated to financially support you undertaking it?
It's not personal liberty if others are footing the bill.
How about heroin OD'ers only get Narcan if they can afford to pay for it. No cash, no saving of the life? It would never fly because it'd be "inhumane", as if the alternative is better.
But is it freedom if everybody else is obligated to financially support you undertaking it?
No. Indeed not. But paying more for a worse situation is not a good solution.
You’re correct that the OD’ers only getting Narcan if they could afford it would never fly in our current society, but neither would a legal market for hard drugs. Drug legalization is primarily an argument about what could work in a hypothetical world because we’re no where close to implementing it and as you rightly pointed out, the closest we got in the US was the ass-backward approach in Portland with quasi legal use with no legal market that only makes things worse. No surprise there though, Portland was ruined by many far left policies.
So a possible funding solution. If the drugs were actually legal (like you can buy legal cannabis at a store in 25+ states now) and they were taxed and the money collected and diverted back to deal with the 'costs' of people buying legal drugs at the store? If you factor in the savings on incarceration and law enforcement etc... I don't know what the numbers would say but I would think as a tax payer I would like to try it.
I know I have represented people who got sent to prison for possession of heroin or meth. Usually because they were on probation for possession, got new charges, and they had multiple prior felonies. So it costs between 40-45k per year per inmate. Most of these people got avg 3yr sentences. Using this one example, do I think instead of spending 120k of taxpayer money to jail them, could some fraction of that money have been used to address the underlying use? Treatment? What if that smaller fraction was paid for out of the sales tax collected by all the drug users collectively? If people are just concerned about $$$ spent on individual drug addicts... what we are doing now is the biggest tax rip off you could think of. I can't even think of a worse way to spend the money. As soon as they get out of prison, they go right back to the drugs. Just to repeat the same shit cycle again wasting even more taxpayer money when the judge says "you got 3yrs last time, this time I am sentencing to 5yrs." Because that shit happens every day across the country.
And many of us do not care if you do drugs…but care deeply if I have to pay for your fucking idiotic decisions.
Let's be fair though - there are a lot of lifestyle choices that one could make that tend to come with socialized costs.
What if you choose to eat an unhealthy diet?
What if you choose to drive at unsafe speeds?
What if you choose to drink and drive?
What if you choose to shoot guns irresponsibly?
So if you want to talk about how to maximize individual liberty while minimize the socialized costs associated with that liberty, then I'm all ears.
But if you want to obsess over drugs while ignore everything else, then that is a different story.
Again, "We pay for this stupid thing means we must pay for all stupid things" is a ridiculous argument.
What if you choose to eat an unhealthy diet? What if you choose to drive at unsafe speeds? What if you choose to drink and drive? What if you choose to shoot guns irresponsibly?
So if you want to talk about how to maximize individual liberty while minimize the socialized costs associated with that liberty, then I’m all ears.
The solution is quite simple: privatize all insurance and let insurers set their rates freely and without regulation; privatize roads; let road owners set insurance requirements. Then price mechanisms will set in and inform you of your actual risk.
– You eat an unhealthy diet or become obese? Your health insurance rates will skyrocket.
– You acquire an STD? Your health insurance rates will skyrocket.
– You agree to submitting all your supermarket purchases to your health insurer? You get a discount.
– You agree to a driving monitor in your car? You get a discount.
– You own guns? You get a discount on your home/liability insurance.
– You get charged for a gun crime? Your home/liability insurance rates will skyrocket.
– You suffer medical consequences of drug use or commit a crime related to drugs? All your insurance rates (health, disability, driving, liability, home) go up dramatically.
Price signals will tell you what actions are good/bad. Obesity and drug use rates will go down because few people can afford the resulting insurance rates.
But if you want to obsess over drugs while ignore everything else, then that is a different story.
Right now, we treat drugs the same way as everything else: we regulate them AND we regulate insurance related to them. It’s not very libertarian and ought to change.
But deregulating something while keeping insurance related to that something regulated/socialized is certainly not libertarian.
What if you choose to eat an unhealthy diet?
Um, you involve the government in your eating choices.
Huh? We do live in a nation of laws and there are speed limits, drunk driving laws and rules against shooting guns irresponsibly. So you only really listed one item that is in the realm of pure personal choice with externalized costs– if you have free or state-subsidized healthcare.
It’s a morality issue.
Yes, it is.
Many believe that getting high from chemicals is unnatural, and therefore immoral.
No, that's not it.
We just believe that it is immoral to force society to bear the cost of other people's drug use. We think it's immoral to let people rot in the streets. We think it's immoral to give drug users a free pass to commit crimes.
"We think it’s immoral to let people rot in the streets. "
No, it isn’t immoral.. Where in nature is there any positive obligation to save someone from themselves?
Interesting that "My body, my choice" is a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on what one is doing to their body.
Long time ago I had a conversation with this left-leaning woman about school choice. She was all for it until she figured out that I meant parents deciding where their kids go to school. She thought I was talking about school nurses performing abortions.
Point being that when the words choice and abortion are synonyms, it's difficult to have conversations about like actual choices and stuff.
It’s weird the Democrats don’t make legalization more of an issue. I say Trump would be President today if he had legalized weed.
My problem with substance prohibition is the power it gives to police. A simple traffic stop can easily turn into an unwarranted search because a cop said a dog acted a certain way near a fender.
The list is endless.
I do think using dogs is a bit bullshit. And watching On Patrol Live fairly regularly, I am even MORE skeptical of it. I have zero reason to believe the dogs smell anything and are not just following the lead of their handler.
I think dogs are quite good at tracking perps. Drugs? I'm not sold on that.
Drug dogs, aka portable probable cause.
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I had a boss who was a die hard republican whose idea to stop drug use was to shoot drug users. Mind you he would drink Crown Royal like it was soda. But that was fine.
Crown Royal, Royal Crown, what's the difference?
The royalty to the crown. Alcohol is taxed more than HFCS.
“Hoffman’s report brings to mind a 2018 University of Pittsburgh study I frequently cite, showing the overdose death rate has been on a steady exponential growth trend since at least 1979, with different drugs in fashion and predominating among overdose deaths at different times,” comments Jeffrey Singer, an Arizona-based surgeon and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, in response to the Times piece.
It is absurd to draw causal conclusions from two variables out of millions. But these causal conclusion don’t even work: drugs were criminalized half a century earlier, and drug use has not developed the same way in other nations that have criminalized drugs.
But lack of any rational or statistical foundation of this kind of argument isn’t the biggest problem with it, the biggest problem is that utilitarian harm reduction arguments simply are anti-libertarian. Libertarian arguments are rooted in increasing individual liberties; progressive arguments are rooted in increasing utility.
Tuccille thinks like a progressive, and in this case, like a progressive who is misusing statistics to push an agenda.
Now, personally, I think drugs ought to be legalized provided the consequences of drug use are privatized. That means, among others, that disability benefits, social security, welfare, EITC, and food stamps should be denied to anybody whose condition is demonstrably due to drug use, and private entities should be free to require drug testing and deny employment/business transactions based on the results. That is the libertarian approach to drugs.
And health care. Said condition should also exempt a federally funded hospital from the requirements of EMTALA.
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Utilitarian arguments are the bread and butter of Reason. If they can't point to some study, some numbers or polls they've got nothing to say.
Baloney! I love how you try to pin this problem on the ones who are trying to fix this atrocity.
The bottom line with a few exceptions due to safety is that it is none of your or anyone else's business what chemicals I have floating around in my body! Period.
If you or some other goddamn puritan want to dictate what I do in my personal time too f'ing bad. In regard to employment there should be a simple test.
Can the person do the job? That's it! If the answer is yes. Congratulations! If the answer is no. Then sorry!
You pearl clutchers need to keep your morality to yourself. Your authority over me or anyone else has a hard border at the dermis. You don't like drugs or abortion or butt sex, or whatever else? Good for you, don't use them or get one, or engage in that activity. We're all very proud of you.
When you start trying to stick your morals in everyone else's body that is an issue and you can kindly stick your morals where the sun don't shine.
The rest of the of the article, on the simultaneous consumption of several drugs, is equally unremarkable, though outcomes remain as unfortunate as ever.
If the outcomes (eg. addiction, crime, death) are “unfortunate,” then why can’t you admit that the monster IS the drugs – and that prohibition simply isn’t the correct way to deal with that monster?
Take a look at any major city that’s not currently expecting a visit from a communist dictator, and it’s clear as day that the monster is drug use, abuse, and addiction. It’s rampant and it’s a problem. A big one.
We can have a conversation about the efficacy of prohibition, but we CAN’T have it in good faith if you’re not going to be honest about the problem right out of the gate.
Because you start with a false premise. The drugs AREN'T the problem, the monster isn't the drugs. Places like Portugal that have done away with prohibition haven't seen a spike in any of the things you are so concerned about. Quite the opposite in fact.
So if starting with a premise that is unsupported by any facts is your idea of "good faith" then you are destined to be disappointed.
Before 1900 when aspirin was invented opioids were used by almost everybody for pain control and pleasure. In the US Commerce Department mortality and morbidity reports from 1925-1935 the average number of deaths from opium and other opioids average 35 overdose deaths per year, and alcohol was about 3,100. Making opioids illegal has increased their price greatly forcing users to have to inject it to afford it. That is what is causing the 50,000-100,000 fentanyl deaths per year. When opium was available at the opium dens in large cities people who consumed too much would fall asleep rather the overdosing and dying. When they executed Socrates in ancient Greece they used hemlock to kill him but opium to ease the pain.
I love opium. People did get hooked though.
Is this true?
Are we measuring damage, but ignoring benefits?
That is the general mantra of the gun grabbers. Always cite gun violence but ignore DGUs.
To a libertarian, “damage” vs “benefits” of collective public policies ought to be irrelevant. That is, subjecting a whole population to infringements on their liberties is unjustified even if it statistically makes the population better off by some measure.
Says who? There are no rules for your motivation for libertarianism. One could be a libertarian because they think that it would provide the best damage to benefit ratio for themselves or for society.
Even if you ignore that, convincing non-libertarians of the benefits of libertarian policy is useful in implementing your goals.
Libertarianism is a political philosophy that places individual freedom as the paramount political value and views coercion as the antithesis of that freedom. Utility has nothing to do with it. Libertarianism is about values.
Trying to "convince non-libertarians of the benefits of libertarian policy" is a fool's errand. Even if you succeed in a few instances, the fact that you have accepted their premise of utilitarianism as the basis of public policy means that you are going to lose far more than you gain.
So the only argument available to a libertarian is maximizing individual liberty? Odd that there is so much debate among libertarians.
OK now do black and white libertarianism on abortion, on immigration, on section 230, on drag queen story hour and on DEI in the workplace.
Yes it's all about maximizing individual negative liberty.
The uterus belongs to the woman the fetus has no right to it's use.
In Libertopia all borders are open because there's no reason for them not to be.
Regulating communications isn't the function of government.
As long as drag queens and DEI are done privately it's not government business.
So the only argument available to a libertarian is maximizing individual liberty?
Libertarianism isn’t about “maximizing individual liberty”, it is about a specific set of individual liberties vis-a-vis the state.
You are free to make arguments about the utility for an individual: “libertarianism is beneficial for you because…”.
But arguments about collective utility (e.g., reducing drug addiction rates, reducing inequality, etc.) are not libertarian.
Odd that there is so much debate among libertarians.
Most people who call themselves “libertarians” are simply progressives.
OK now do black and white libertarianism on abortion, on immigration, on section 230, on drag queen story hour and on DEI in the workplace.
The general answer is that the state wouldn’t be involved in any of these issues; however, private institutions providing related services would likely impose restrictions that are quite conservative.
Libertarianism is a political philosophy that places individual freedom as the paramount political value .
Libertarianism isn’t about “maximizing individual liberty”
Trying to “convince non-libertarians of the benefits of libertarian policy” is a fool’s errand.
You are free to make arguments about the utility for an individual: .
Ahhh I see. Very clear.
Feel free to ask questions if the above confuses you.
It does have a utility, stop government coercion.
The 'monster' isn't X,Y or Z it's the totalitarian Pre-emptive strike of gov-gun packers pretending to be gods/parents of the people.
The justice path is person commits crime goes to jail.
NOT "[WE] gov-gun packers" think X,Y or Z leads to crime so jail them before a crime is committed.
Consenting adults should feel free to do with other consenting adult as they wish. In return, I only ask that neither you, nor your family, send "society" the bill when you self-destruct or destroy those closest to you.
In a capitalist society there wouldn't be anyone to send the bill to.
The state has been forcing kids to do harder drugs by making the milder drugs more expensive. Image the cost of quart of beer costing more than a 5th of rum, what would you drink? Of course they will buy the cheaper drugs which are stronger. It's time for legalization of all drugs, control the amount that can be bought and quality.
Make the legal age 19 and make it illegal to provide intoxicants to anyone younger. Over 19 you can do whatever you want.
Drug prohibition is immoral because it violates our natural right as sapient beings to liberty.
That's true. Forcing be to pay for the consequences of other people's drug addiction also violates my liberty. We need to rectify both of those violations simultaneously.
Prohibit government coercion.
Or at the very least keep it LIMITED to ensuring Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
Does the fact that we are paying many times more to support prohibition factor in at all?
Because of my freedom rhetoric and seeming hyper-conservatism some take me for a Libertarian, but I am opposed to LIbertarianism to my core. And this drug thing illustrates why.
Libs seem to be anti-science, anti-common sense and most of all, impervious to actual experience and history and empirical results
‘It Has Been Pretty Awful’: First State To Decriminalize Hard Drugs Looking To Reverse Liberal Experiment
https://dailycaller.com/2023/11/19/first-state-decriminalize-hard-drugs-reverse-liberal-experiment/
If you stop the drug war, you exacerbate almost every major social problem we have. THAT IS THE FACT