Did Evolution Give Us Free Will?
Author Kevin J. Mitchell makes a neuroscientific case against determinism.

Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will, by Kevin J. Mitchell, Princeton University Press, 352 pages, $29.95
What is free will? Can a being whose brain is made up of physical stuff actually make undetermined choices?
In Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will, the Trinity College Dublin neuroscientist Kevin J. Mitchell argues that evolution has shaped living creatures such that we can push back when the physical world impinges upon us. The motions of nonliving things—air, rocks, planets, stars—are entirely governed by physical forces; they move where they are pushed. Our ability to push back, Mitchell argues, allows increasingly complex creatures to function as agents that can make real choices, not "choices" that are predetermined by the flux of atoms.
How can that be? After all, just like air and rocks, bacteria and sharks and aardvarks and people are made of physical stuff. Determinism holds that, per the causal laws of nature, the unfolding of the universe is inexorable and unbranching, such that it can have only one past and one future. Human beings do not escape the laws of nature, so any and all of our "choices" have been predetermined from the beginning of the universe.
This view poses a moral problem: How can people be held accountable for their actions if they had no choice but to behave the way they did?
Some determinist philosophers, known as compatibilists, hold that causal determinism is compatible with free will. Daniel Dennett, for example, argues that you are exercising your free will if, in the absence of external coercion, you are acting in accordance with your desires. As the 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer put it, "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."
Mitchell is unconvinced. "I cannot escape feeling that some sleight of hand is part of this argument," he writes. "The primary problem has been circumvented or even denied, rather than confronted. We start on the terrain of particle physics but shift to arguments at the level of human psychology, all aimed not at whether organisms can choose their actions but at the different question of whether we can ascribe moral responsibility."
***
Determinists argue that all causes come from the bottom up. They say the interactions of particles and forces are "causally comprehensive," ultimately accounting for everything that happens in the realm of weather, rocks, amoebas, planets, and brains.
Against that view, physicist Roger Penrose and anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff suggest the locus of free will can be situated in the randomness of quantum mechanics. Many philosophers say this argument does not work, since random quantum wave fluctuations decohere into particles that then grind deterministically on in accordance with the laws of classical physics.
Physicists Nicolas Gisin and Flavio Del Santo have offered a controversial challenge to fully causal determinism, arguing against the assumption of infinite precision in the measurement of classical physical systems. They contend it is impossible to cram an infinite amount of information into a finite space, that the state of any physical system is therefore indefinite, and that indeterminacy is thus not confined to the quantum realm.
Barbara Drossel, a theoretical physicist at the Technical University of Darmstadt, takes a similar position. "While physics underlies everything that happens in nature, it does not determine everything," she writes. "Physics is not causally closed and does not encompass everything that happens in our world."
Mitchell builds on those arguments, suggesting that indeterminacy is resolved as physical systems interact over time; the past becomes fixed while the future remains open. The future, he writes, is characterized "by indefiniteness at both the quantum and classical levels," and the present is "the time during which this indefiniteness becomes definite." Mitchell's aim is to trace how living organisms, from microbes to humans, evolved into agents able to make choices that resolve the universe's inherent indeterminacy.
Organisms, Mitchell says, are patterns of processes that detect and react to internal and external stimuli as they seek to persist. As a microbe actively explores its environment, impinging molecules are processed internally as information about sustenance or danger, thereby providing the organism as a whole with "reasons" to initiate approach or avoidance. "In reality," he explains, "these organisms integrate multiple signals at once, along with information about their current state and its recent history, to produce a genuinely holistic response that cannot be deconstructed into isolated parts."
If microorganisms can act as agents, then much more complex organisms, such as humans, must have an even greater scope for agency in the world. Mitchell describes the structure of human brains in great detail, showing how patterns of neurons instantiate meaning as they respond to sensory stimuli and to each other. Thus emerges top-down causation—what happens when patterns at a higher hierarchical level exert causal influence over a lower level by changing the context within which the lower-level actions take place.
"The choices the organism makes based on parameters set at high level filter down," Mitchell writes, "to change the criteria at lower levels, thereby allowing the organism to adapt to current circumstances, execute current plans, and achieve current goals. In this way, abstract entities like thoughts and beliefs and desires can have causal influence in a physical system."
***
To be clear, Mitchell does not believe our choices are absolutely free from any prior causes. We are all constrained by our genes, our histories, our psychological traits, and our developed characters. Instead of radical metaphysical freedom, Mitchell persuasively develops a more modest conception of free will that entails the evolved ability to make real choices in the service of our goals—that is, to act for our own reasons.
This carefully argued, information-dense book will put a dent in any intellectual predilection toward determinism that some readers may have. It certainly did mine. But perhaps it was inevitable that it would do so.
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Nerds, I’m going to watch OSU-PSU, grill out and drink some beer. Because I can. bitch.
The THEORY of evolution is, to quote dear leader, malarkey.
If that theory were correct, mothers would have more than two hands.
That would had to have happened in the “Monkey fish frog” stage.
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Just goes to show you know fuck all about evolution and how it works.
You can take it all the way back to the original cell and it still boils down to the chicken and the egg. What came first? The chicken or the egg? The original cell or the ....
If we all evolved from something earlier, where did the earlier come from? Science me that.
Between dishwashing machines, washer/dryers, baby monitors, Roombas, thermostats, timed cookers, photovoltaic light dimmers, security systems, and countless smartphone apps that can do infinite tasks, I'd say we humans, including mothers, have many “hands” because of our highly-evolved frontal lobes.
And a THEORY, as you added emphasis to, is an explanation of natural phenomena based on evidence. It is not the same as a mere guess or statement taken on faith.
That assumes that Lamarck was right about evolution. Luria and Delbruck's fluctuation test showed that Darwin, not Lamarck, got it right.
What a pointless discussion. *I* cannot change whether or not *I* have free will. *I* cannot use the knowledge of having, or not having, free will to change my life.
I'd find discussions of how many angels can dance on pins more enlightening.
Agreed!
I've read that fruit fly genes are mapped nine ways to Sunday, and this entire "simple" organism is well understood... They say! And you can devise a well-controlled cubic yard of cage-space, with the air and the cage materials well understood. Now release a fruit fly into it, and PREDICT the flight path of this stupid little fly, PLEASE! All of the King's eggheads, and all of the King's scientists and philosophers can NOT do that! So... The fruit fly DECIDES where to fly, for all practical purposes! Obviously, this is even FAR more true of humans with GIANT brains!
Ok, so how many?
As many as God wants to - - - - - - - -
Can the angels refuse God?
Angels are dicks.
Maybe that's why, whenever they appear in the Bible, the first words out of their mouths are "don't be afraid".
Five.
42
This is the kind of bullshit thousands of academics get paid to discuss.
We didn't start punishing people because moral philosophers told us to do it. We punish people because that's what our own biology tells us to do and because it discourages/prevents future bad behavior. Game theory and evolution describe it quite well, no moral philosophy or free will needed.
Whether the universe is deterministic or not is irrelevant. And the idea that people aren't responsible for their actions because of "things in their brain" is progressive nonsense.
"This is the kind of bullshit thousands of academics get paid to discuss."
True. On the other hand, thousands of athletes get paid many millions of dollars to play in the NFL. Both can be entertaining and useful, depending on the choices one chooses to make.
There is a difference, though.
Athletes are generally paid for by private ticket sales.
Academics are paid for through taxes expropriated from working Americans.
"Athletes are generally paid for by private ticket sales."
Sometimes... but then there are those billion-dollar stadiums that never seem to get paid off... and not to mention billions spent on high-school and college athletics each year.
Don't get me wrong. I can remember when the Oakland Raiders played at Frank Youell Field, and I have been an A's fan for longer than they deserve. But the pondering of the nature of the human mind and human experience is at least as fascinating. One does not have to choose between cheering on the Yankees or Prince Hamlet. Both are part of our world, and our world is richer for both.
I'm starting to doubt that NOYB2 actually experiences consciousness.
Well, it's pretty clear Vernon Depner doesn't have free will but rather interacts with the world through operant conditioning.
Better to lock them up to be sure.
No surprisingly, NOYB2 is wrong as usual, which almost but not quite makes me believe in determinism. It fails to recognize the evolution of the definition of bad behavior. Early humans were cannibals. Did our own biology suddenly change to discourage cannibalism? Hardly. Our moral philosophy changed.
And it also confuses who exactly believes in determinism, i.e. "things in their brain". Determinists are conservative, not progressive. Its vast ignorance regarding progressives would be astounding if not for for the recognition that it is only living up to its meager potential.
Cannibalism occurs either because of famine or for religious/spiritual reasons. Neither of those changed because of moral philosophy.
That is absurd. Determinism refers to a mechanistic, physical world; conservatives reject such a view.
Not surprisingly, you are an idiot again.
"This view poses a moral problem: How can people be held accountable for their actions if they had no choice but to behave the way they did?"
The evolutionary theory is actually pretty good. This tension comes because people think that for some reason determinism and free will are mutually exclusive. They are not.
If we accept that "Choice" is just the manifestation of various particles colliding and energy levels changing in a "causal" universe, so what? That just means attempts to regulate the actions of others is the same thing- that is, a causal manifestation of *other* particles colliding and energy levels changing.
If I have no choice but to act the way I did, then a legal or moral system that attempts to regulate that choice operates in the same universe- it holds us accountable BECAUSE it is equally deterministic. Take for granted that my "Choice" is just the end state of a bunch of causal reactions. That means how I and others feel about it is just another set of causal reactions. And that means attempts to influence my choices are ALSO just another set of causal reactions. We *can* hold a person accountable for choices because "holding them accountable" is just another set of reactions within the same system- regulating its own operation just as an oxygen-sensor contributes to the operation of an engine.
I think it is by FAR more damaging to pretend that causality does not exist. And this is what many quantum philosophers have attempted to do- insist that our inability to measure a state means that in reality such a state does not exist. This point of view has sent far too many scientists and mathematicians down dead end scientific paths- which will take a loooong time for us to backtrack and recover from.
Agreed, and thanks, Overt!
Not only does "no free will, it's a clockwork universe" conflict with quantum mechanics and theories of justice, it ALSO conflicts with theories of education! "Well, we have to educate them, so that they can make well-informed... DECISIONS AND CHOICES!" If ye are a free-will denialist AND an educator, something must give! "Well, we educate them ??? so that cause and effect will take over, and they will do the right, well-informed things." Now ye are mechanistic, deliberate, input-output MIND CONTROLLER, not an educator!
Except my point is that "no free will, it's a clockwork universe" is in and of itself a tautology. It only works if you believe Free Will is incompatible with a clockwork universe. There is no reason why this should be true.
And to be clear, a "Clockwork Universe" is not in conflict with quantum mechanics. It is only in conflict if you believe that our inability to measure a particle's state means it HAS NO STATE. This is a (if not THE) fundamental schism in Quantum Mechanics- between the people who believe a particle has hidden variables that are deterministic (causality exists) but unknowable and people who believe those hidden variables ARE NOT DETERMINISTIC- that you can have action at a distance.
Again, an Oxygen Sensor asserts control in a clockwork engine. Within the context of that system, it is completely deterministic, but also the Oxygen Sensor is making decisions, and if it did NOT make decisions- if it was broken- the engine would not work. It is certainly a SIMPLE governor of engine behavior, one whose behavior is largely predictable by humans because of this simplicity.
I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that "Free Will" is merely an infinitely more complex governor of our actions that takes in uncountable inputs from a causal universe, chews on it, and elicits out new behaviors. If it were at all possible to know every state of every input in that governing process, we could predict how "Free Will" for SQRLSY would elicit some response. But that question is moot- because quantum uncertainty means we can NEVER know the state of all things.
I will boldly say that our Universe is a clockwork universe. That is: everything has a cause. Nothing spontaneously starts moving- it is acted upon by some force, which was in itself started by some other force. It is all Causal, and yet unknowable. That means it is theoretically deterministic, but in reality indeterminate. This is a good thing. If causality were broken, then there is no basis for morality in our universe. "If I do this, then you do this. If you don't do this, then you have broken our agreement" does not work without causality. It is the basis of civilization.
Except the determinists want to use deterministic principles to control everyone else, but think they are somehow above it themselves.
Always act like you have free will. If you're right, you will gain control over your own life. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter anyway, you're just reacting to stimuli in a predictable manner.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
On the one hand determinism negates the basic ideas behind libertarianism. It means that you are ultimately not free, but it also means there is no one that can exercise true judgment over anything either. If anything, if a person is deterministically bound to commit crimes, then life imprisonment or summary execution is a justfifiable response to remove such a person from society permanently
For a theory of civil liberties and human rights to exist, then one must believe that free will exists, even if it does not.
The conundrum results from the fallacy of Naturalism. Once it is recognized that consciousness is supernatural, then freely acting minds and a deterministic physical universe can coexist. The intellect is one of the hands on the controls of our behavior, but not the only one. Our conscious will is always in contention with the natural unfolding of material processes. Any success our intellect has in exerting free will against physical forces is miraculous.
Can you actually define "supernatural"? How do you determine whether a phenomenon is "supernatural"?
I shan't improve on the dictionary.
The dictionary gives no guidance for determining whether a phenomenon is "supernatural".
Scientifically, there is no indication that consciousness is outside known physical law. And if it were, it is unclear why you wouldn't simply incorporate whatever consciousness is into physical law.
Scientists have no clue at all what consciousness is.
This does not mean that we therefore default to a supernatural explanation. Your argument is analogous to "God of the gaps".
What argument was that?
"Scientists have no clue at all what consciousness is." following on from your earlier post.
Do you disagree with that?
We also have no clue what high temperature superconductivity is. But it exists, we can observe it, we can manipulate it, and there is no indication that it requires any new physical laws, let alone a "supernatural" explanation. Ditto for consciousness.
There are millions of phenomena that science has "no clue" what they are, yet nobody demands a supernatural explanation for them.
But we can't scientifically prove that consciousness exists. We have only our subjective experience of it.
Anesthesiologists have little problem proving that consciousness exists.
How do they do that?
They use the AVPU scale or the Glasgow Coma Scale.
Doctors may also ask specific questions to evaluate the patient's mental status, such as their name, the date, and their location. They may also perform a neurological examination to observe the patient's speech, thinking, walking, and other movements, which can help in localizing the lesion and determining the level of consciousness
Irrelevant.
Siri could answer those questions.
No, Vernon, sadly, it is your contributions that are irrelevant. You have some vague, undefined notions of "consciousness" floating around in your head, heavily influenced by a history of dualism and Christianity. You can't state or apply a coherent definition of "consciousness".
Then you're completely missing the point of what I'm saying. I think we're done here.
That's perhaps because you are unwilling to define your terms or actually present a valid argument.
Any theory of consciousness has to explain how we lose it when getting bopped on the head. Your explanation, please...?
When you turn off your radio, does the program stop?
Good question! No, and we have an explanation for why turning off the radio means we no longer hear the music even though it's still being broadcast.
What’s your explanation wrt the brain? And don’t say, “it’s like turning off a radio”, because it isn’t.
What's your explanation for how the brain creates consciousness?
You seem to have consciousness. So do modern AI systems, and we know how those work. Presumably, your brain works somewhat similar to that.
You don't know anyone is conscious other than yourself. But we all know for certain that we are conscious ourselves. Science offers no way to distinguish between the appearance of consciousness and consciousness itself.
This is a common definition:
That is certainly something we can test for, in most cases simply by asking questions. And that is what doctors generally do.
You seem to think that there are systems that can do all those things but nevertheless are not conscious; but you haven't given a definition of consciousness that would capture the distinction, so I have no idea what you are trying to get at.
I mean, I don't know whether anybody else perceives the color red the way I do; that doesn't mean that "red" doesn't exist.
That is certainly something we can test for
No, we can't. We can only test for the appearance of consciousness. There is no way to test for the subjective experience of consciousness.
We can't test for the subjective experience of anything.
Consciousness is not defined as a subjective experience, it is defined as a mental state with specific properties, and we can test for those.
Wrong.
You are welcome to put some meat on that "argument" any time now. So far, you have contributed nothing of substance to this conversation. All you have done is repeated the boring pseudo-Christian-dualism view of some scientists without any insight or analysis.
Vernon is pushing this thread into full Chemjeff levels of sea lioning.
Never go full Chemjeff.
I don't have one nor do I need to make one. You're the one who asserted some supernatural mechanism for which you've provided no evidence.
Any theory of consciousness has to explain how we lose it when getting bopped on the head.
Any theory of consciousness has to explain how we have it before we get bopped in the head.
Free will comes from the Creator.
Quantum physics shows that nothing happens until an observer observes it. Almost like we're playing a video game, and have to choose an action before the visible universe of the game is rendered to us. There is no "multi-verse," just a lot of options.
An "observer" in quantum physics is just a measurement device; it doesn't mean "person".
Correct! The "observer" can be as simple as a magnetic field, "observing" the spin of an electron.
I once heard Freeman Dyson giving a lecture where he said, simply, with respect to observation and measurement, "the past is classical and the future is quantum" - as you imply, the measurement device is where the boundary between past and future lies.
No, free will does not come from the "creator". There's no creator, no god.
An Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent "Creator" is anathema to the concept of Volition or Free Will.
If a God is Omniscient, then he knows everything, including the future. Yet if he knows the future, then the future is set and nothing can change it, including both Humans and God. Thus Omniscience contradicts both Omnipotence and Volition.
Omnipotence is obviously a contradiction of Volition because if a God can do anything, wouldn't that include nullifying Volition and thus render Volition an illusion and a nonentity?
And, of course, if God were Omnibenevolent, then wouldn't he be incapable of Evil and by that extent, devoid of Volition? And wouldn't Omnibenevolence include stopping humans from committing evil and thus render human Volution impossible?
So much for a "Creator God" being the source of Volition, along with being the source of anything else.
Christian philosophers and theologians have dealt with these issues for two millennia. You'd do well to look up their answers. There is a wide variety of answers.
In any case, you need to ask yourself where these attributes actually came from. Are they mathematical postulates? Of course not. Ideas like the omniscience and benevolence of God are impressions received during certain "mystical" experiences by prophets and in near-death. They may not correspond to mathematically precise answers or definitions.
They are mathematical in the sense of a binary switching operation, where a 0 is off or no and 1 is on or yes. Also, they are mathematical in the way that algebra operates like syllogistic reasoning, where conclusions follow from premises necessarily.
Moreover, I wouldn't take seriously answers given while experienced under conditions of starvation, thirst, physical exhaustion, psilocybic mushroom highs, or the deprivation of Oxygen during the ultimate duress known as death. Those are all that "religious experiences" really are.
To be “mathematical”, you need to first define what they are. You haven’t done so.
And it is you who is reading more into these religious experiences than there is to them. You are misinterpreting them as mathematical statements. Christians just believe that God loves them, doesn’t mean them ill, and is more powerful than anything else that affects their lives, often as a matter of personal experience. What the theoretical or logical limits of that omniscience, benevolence, and omnipotence are is of no interest to most Christians
Belief doesn't make anything so, and this also goes for an Omnific God that is supposed to be compatible with the existence of Volition.
By the bye, pilots in centrifuges moving fast enough to generate 10 Gs of gravitational pull testify that they experience the same symptoms of people who claim Near Death Experiences (NDE.). According to Penn & Teller: Bullshit!, both instances are what happen when the brain is deprived of Oxygen. "Religious experiences" are perfectly explainable natural phenomena.
We feel we have free will. (though anyone who’s has a crazy gf will have observed the lack of it in someone else).
Whether we do is a separate issue. Merely appealing to complexity of systems, QM, the practical difficulty of determining or predicting a decision, etc. doesn’t cut it. All these pro free will arguments boil down to “we get free will from randomness or computational intractability” – which really isn’t anyone’s idea of free will.
But the materialists who believe in free will never provide a mechanism whereby the full knowledge of a brain state doesn’t let you predict the next state, and that inability is not due to randomness or complexity. And the non-materialists never provide any evidence for the existence of some non-material substance from whence free will mysteriously emerges and interacts with a human brain. (Nor in general do non-materialists, though not all, think that other animals have free will – though they lack an explanation and evidence for why only humans have it.)
Basically, it’s the infantile position, “I feel like I have free will, I don’t like the idea of not having it, therefore I have it.”
There are better arguments against free will from the posters above than the argument presented in favour in the article itself.
Saying we don't have free will is a completely faith based argument, exactly the same as saying we "feel" we have free will. They're literally identical arguments. Both are unknowable and unprovable, but for exercises in logic, which are ultimately based on faith.
Neither can be proven in a laboratory, neither are empirical statements. But the idea of predicating our systems on the faith that we DON'T have free will, is horrifying beyond contemplation.
Bullshit. First, there’s abundant evidence that people feel we have free will – because so many people keep saying we have it.
Second, “free will” is the claim and it is incumbent on you to provide that evidence, and as yet no-one has done so.
Third, there are good scientific reasons to doubt free will. I don’t have “faith” in science, I have the heuristic that things that produce reproducible results and generally reliable knowledge are a better way of obtaining results and knowledge that things that don’t. I won’t say YMMV as it’s obvious your mileage varies.
The Libet experiment demonstrates that our conscious perception of free will doesn’t necessarily stand, from which one may deduce that the subjective belief in free will is not evidence for it.
But the idea of predicating our systems on the faith that we DON’T have free will, is horrifying beyond contemplation.
An argument from consequences.
Bullshit, you have this exactly backwards. YOU have to prove we don't have free will. Simply saying we don't have it is not evidence enough.
Third, there are good scientific reasons to doubt free will. I don’t have “faith” in science, I have the heuristic that things that produce reproducible results and generally reliable knowledge are a better way of obtaining results and knowledge that things that don’t.
Again, this is not proof of a lack of free will, it's a faith-based argument. Provide me the laboratory experiment where free-will was successfully disproven in the human thought process.
The axiom: All the world and its systems are ultimately knowable and predictable if we had the technology to measure and KNOW all of the available variables and data is a faith based argument.
If you are to validly claim that either something or everything is unknowable, wouldn't that mean that you have observed everything in the Universe and have the knowledge to validly make that claim?
If haven't observed the entire Universe, you can't make a valid claim that anything or everything is unknowable. Therefore, by process of elimination, not by "an act of faith," the Universe is in principle knowable and the epistemic position of Agnosticism is self-contradictory.
John Lennox discussing how "faith" is used all the time in scientific arguments.
Einstein said that scientists "believe that the universe is accessible to the human mind".
Fallacy of equivocation
See above.
You objectively have free will: there are many situations in your life where you have a range of choices and your conscious reasoning mind demonstrably determines those choices.
But we do not know whether it's our conscious mind reasoning, or an unconscious process of which we're consciously aware. That's why I referenced the Libet experiment.
Free will is the potential for conscious processes to override unconscious processes, and that potential exists in all conscious human beings. Whether you are aware of this fact, and what happens in any particular instance, really doesn't matter.
You can be a violently angry mass murderer who simply acts out his anger again and again without thinking about it; but that person still has free will because he could have thought about it and made different choices. In fact, in the West, he can't even plead ignorance since the ability to make choices and the moral duty to make good choices are taught to everybody in our society.
Agreed. I long ago gave up on the question of whether we have free will. The real question--and it's answerable--is why we feel like we do when we can't possibly.
As for the idea of a quantum soup that might allow for free will...OK. So you have a squishy enough mechanism that you might be able to slip free will into. Where's the choice coming from? I retired from neurointerventional surgery and in my entire career, I've never run into the place that free will affects.
Whether or not we have free will is possibly unprovable, but the idea that we DON'T have free will is too horrifying to contemplate and it tends to lead to Sam Harris-type arguments that because we don't have free will, we can use medical procedures and technology to bend people's behavior when they fall outside of a normative band of acceptability.
And then when the very guy making that argument comes back at a later date and says "anything is justified" in keeping his political enemies away from the levers of power, you realize how terrifying these people are.
As I've said repeatedly-- as an atheist, I kind of miss the old gods, because the new ones scare the hell out of me.
The fact that you miss "the old gods" or fear "the new gods" (whatever that means) doesn't make any of them real. We don't live in <The Velveteen Rabbit Universe where "Love Makes You Real."
If one cannot show that the current state of all the universe and its systems are known, and 100% accurate predictions cannot be made about the state of the universe and all of its systems five minutes from now, ten minutes, an hour, a week, a month, a year, 10,000 years, then one must admit that the state of the universe is in a state of uncertainty. If the state of your universe has uncertainty anywhere in it, then one must proceed as if we have free will… even if we don’t. Because the proposal that we “don’t” is definitionally unproven. Logical arguments don’t cut it.
If you can’t tell me the exact state of the universe at this exact time tomorrow, and the position of every molecule in it, then there is a state of uncertainty in the universe.
That doesn’t disprove the lack of free will argument, it just means that we must proceed as if we have free will.
Sam Harris laid out what he thought the system should look like if we don’t have free will and proceeded thusly. And frankly, dragging my fellow human beings in to a Clockwork Orange Style behavior modification regime when they fall outside the normative band of acceptable behavior is not something I’m particularly keen on. You “we don’t have free will” types may disagree and think the Clockwork Orange System is the truly humane way to go… but for me, I’m going to exercise my lack of free will by maintaining an armed perimeter around my social construct.
It's not either-or. We can have a conscious will that can exert some degree of control over our behavior, but that does not enjoy supremacy over all the other influences on our behavior.
I’m not sure I buy the ‘not either-or’ argument. If there’s a scintilla of free will, then there’s free will. I don’t see it has being sometimes free will and sometimes not free will.
Edit: Otherwise the Eugenisists may have been on to something. And no, that’s not a “if you don’t believe in free will, you’re a nazi” argument, it’s a “if you don’t believe in free will, then your innate characteristics are the only thing that matters” argument.
Wrong. Free will can be one force among others controlling our behavior. If there's "a scintilla of free will", then it might lose to other influences that muster more than a "scintilla". Other times, it might win. Maybe it wins most of the time for most people. But no, there's no reason it has to be either-or. That's why justice systems rightly extend mercy in cases of brain disorders or mental illness.
Free will is the potential to override reflexive or automatic choices with your conscious mind; you have free will even if you never exercise it.
Free will is also the ability to shape your reflexes or automatic responses. A lot of those automatic responses are driven by fear, greed, anger, jealousy, etc., and you can consciously train yourself to overcome those feelings.
Sure, Grasshopper.
Well, "grasshopper", your definition of "free will" in terms of what actually controls behavior is not the standard definition used for millennia. And that's why you end up with contradictions.
The standard/traditional definition of "free will" is "the idea that human beings have the ability to use their mind to choose between different courses of action", not that they actually exercise that ability in every instance. And once you understand the standard/traditional definition, all those contradictions you worry about go away.
You're arguing with things I didn't say.
I'm sorry, I should have said "your IMPLIED definition of 'free will'".
I'm not responsible for what you imagine I implied and can't respond to it.
Well, you have failed to give a definition of consciousness or free will. I have given definitions of both, which happen to coincide with definitions from medicine and moral philosophy.
Feel free to start stating your positions clearly and participating in a rational argument, rather than your infantile tantrums and eructions.
In fact, caste systems start to make a lot of sense if you don't believe in free will.
No, that makes no sense.
Saying that "humans have free will" doesn't mean that every single choice is consciously made. In fact, the vast majority of choices people make are made unconsciously. But you usually have the potential to override those choices using your conscious mind and that is what it means to have free will.
For example, your instinct and reaction to a slight from another human being may be to punch them; but you can override that instinct and reaction by an act of will. Furthermore, you can consciously change your instincts and reactions in such a way that in the future, you won't even want to punch others.
Exactly! All it takes is one counter example of free choice to completely disprove determinism.
I save at least a dozen lives every day by choosing to let those people live.
Uncertainty doesn't mean unknowability. Therefore, faith is not a valid reason for accepting anything. And none of this means Volition is an illusion, but is all the reason for it.
Did evolution give us free will? Can socialists and the nanny state take it away?
Free will is more easily understood in the context of chaotic systems. The physical universe from subatomic particles all the way up to living organisms is a chaotic system where the end state at any point in time is the starting point of the next iteration of the observing period. It is therefore impossible to predict with any precision the end state of your brain after more than about ten iterations of the total physical universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_pendulum
No, free will is best understood as the ability to make conscious choices (as opposed to reflexive/unconscious). Whether the conscious mind operates deterministically or not really doesn't matter.
Huh? The mind operating deterministically is the opposite of free will.
As I explained to you, your implicit assumption of what "free will" means is wrong. Re-read what I read and try to understand it.
I understand what you wrote. You're wrong.
Honey, dearest, there is no right/wrong in this question. This is well-trodden philosophical ground, for more than 3000 years.
Some philosophers and scientists postulate a relationship between determinism and free will. But that leads to all sorts of logical problems.
I’m simply telling you that to many classical and/or Christian philosophers, the resolution of that issue is simple: free will is the control of the conscious mind over instinct and base desire, and whether the conscious mind is “deterministic” or not simply doesn’t matter.
You can accept that position or reject it, that’s your business. But the fact remains that to large numbers of people, the issue has been satisfactorily resolved, while you obviously have no resolution at all.
Where people like me draw the line, however, is when people like you try to use determinism as a way of evading moral responsibility; “my brain made me do it and it was inevitable” is not an acceptable excuse for crime. From a moral point of view, the classical Greek definition of free will is the only meaningful one.
And again, you try to argue with me about things I haven't said. Why don't you just state what you have to say instead of pretending to have a conversation?
I didn't say that "you" tried to use determinism for anything, I said that "people like you" do so.
Your fundamental problem seems to be an inability to read, coupled with an inability to produce any kind of coherent argument.
Why is this suddenly the subject of dueling books from two scientists? Stanford University neurobiologist Robert Sapolsky just published Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will, which takes the opposite view. Why now? And why do stories about each of these books not mention the other?
Progressives love denying the existence of free will, because it lets them make excuses for all sorts of bad behavior: gluttony, murder, theft, etc.
Conservatives and Christians believe that "free will" simply means that a choice can be made consciously in principle, so short of severe mental illnesses that affect consciousness itself, people are responsible for their choices.
Was anyone else reading this reminded of the debates between Calvinists and Lutherans on the subject of predetermination during the early years of the Reformation?
Yes!
No, because , like an Argentine presidential election , that controversy hinged on wether damnation can best be obtained by faith or good works.
The choices the organism makes based on parameters set at high level filter down," Mitchell writes, "to change the criteria at lower levels, thereby allowing the organism to adapt to current circumstances, execute current plans, and achieve current goals. In this way, abstract entities like thoughts and beliefs and desires can have causal influence in a physical system.
This makes a lot of sense in a world with both probabilistic and deterministic systems.
Those probabilistic influences would be more likely to occur in a situation where the outcome/responses etc are unknown or in the future or where the complexity just blows our mind. Freezing at that point would quickly become an evolutionary dead end. Pure instinct/impulse would eliminate changes in efficacy of decisions (learning) over future generations.
Free will is essentially the way an organism that evolves over generations can succeed. Evolution can't have any impact on choosing path a (filled with lions and tigers and bears oh my) or path b (filled with landslides and floods) or path c (to Oz or the big rock candy mountains) - unless those are genetic choices.
So how can an organism succeed over time and pass that success to future generations? Other than via combinations of genes, culture, learning, etc. And the latter two seem much more probabilistic than deterministic.
The infinite information argument Ron mentions should serve to remind us that high entropy states can exist almost isothermally in the face of statistical thermodynamics, especially under dimensional constraints.
You don't need fire to polish glass by processes akin to surface melting
This is a very unexpected topic)) I’m simply surprised by how the authors lumped physics and metaphysics together. This debate is already becoming endless. Why not add a little theology to it? How about "we're all in God's hands"? People know how to juggle words very beautifully when they want to prove their point. I prefer to think that I have the willpower to make my own choices. But I also understand that there are many paths for me. I began to study the Tarot to better understand the signs of the universe - https://spiritualteacup.com/t/tarot-study-groups Some may find this funny, but this way of knowing myself helps me a lot.
I have heard this argument forever and it's the dumbest thing ever.
I can choose whether to have eggs or pizza for dinner. It's not predetermined. I can choose whether to shake your hand or hit you in the face. It's not predetermined. I choose not to hit you in the face either because you do not deserve it, or if you deserve it, due to consequences. If we remove consequences because I "had no choice," which is a lie, then the whole house of cards comes down.
Which I think is the goal of determinists, and I applaud this author for fighting back. But the whole debate is exceedingly stupid. Only academics could be this stupid.
Yes, you see, for many of these fields of science where one must subscribe to an orthodox “way” of interpreting things, much of it is tied up with *surprise!* politics. You are absolutely right in your assertion that hard-core determinism is tied to an agenda. Much of our “reality” in our modern world is, indeed, attached to worldviews and agendas. Humans have proven time and time again that they will kill, torture, and silence others in the name of whatever worldview they harken to. Communism, socialism, nazism, fascism, even our own liberal democracy – much of what we see is filtered through an “-ism.” This is not like, say, modeling an atom or flying a plane - very linear concepts to understand. No, what we have in topics like this is ideological inference from what we see in front of us and tremendous mental gymnastics to fit things to what one wants to see. You can see it as plain as day in the comments here. It is both scary and hilarious, in my humble opinion.
A gloss over the nonsensical debate in the comments here makes me giggle. So many mental gymnastics, second, triple, and quadruple guessing, overthinking, and carefully planned out yet extremely overused and tired rhetoric to “prove” a point without any evidence… it is what I expect from humanity lol. The kicker about all this is that their heads are shoved so far up their own asses that they simply cannot see the forest for the trees.
Free will is one of the reasons that I believe in God. And creation, although maybe not young earth creation, but intelligent design creation.
Can't help but disagree. If this definition of free will is true, then AI would also possess free will. In reality, I think AI possesses exactly as much free will as humans: none.