Blaming Hamas Shouldn't Mean Ignoring the Palestinians' Plight
Terrorism does not thrive on peace and normalcy. It thrives on war and chaos and overbroad revenge projects.

Who is to blame for the bloodshed in Israel and Gaza?
In one sense, this is a very easy question to answer: Hamas is to blame. This should go without saying, but it has, miserably, become a subject of active conversation thanks to a small but well-placed subset of left-wing activists and students who responded to the initial attack by holding Israel responsible for the violence and loss of life. So let us say it: Hamas is to blame.
Hamas is the explicitly antisemitic terrorist group that began the present conflict on October 7 with a surprise massacre. Hamas is the group that—even if the most horrific accounts, God willing, prove untrue—committed hundreds of war crimes in a span of hours. Hamas is to blame for the deaths of innocents, as yet unknown numbers of infants and children included. Hamas is to blame for kidnapping Israeli civilians and using fellow Palestinians, too, as human shields against Israeli reprisal.
Hamas is to blame for every abduction, every rape, every murder. Hamas is to blame for its deplorable deception, the lie it tells itself and ordinary Palestinians desperate for a champion, that Israeli civilians deserve to die. Hamas is to blame.
And yet if we stop the judgment there, it will be incomplete, and Americans who are old enough to remember the 9/11 attacks—to which the Hamas onslaught has rightly been compared—should know this better than most. We should know, as we learned at the expense of hundreds of thousands of American, Iraqi, and Afghan lives over the subsequent two decades, that terrorism does not happen in a vacuum.
Terrorists do not find a significant constituency in stable, prosperous, reasonably liberal, and democratic places. Terrorist recruitment efforts do not thrive on peace and normalcy, or even narrowly prosecuted retaliation marked by careful avoidance of civilian casualties. They thrive on war and chaos and overbroad revenge projects, like drone wars that label every military-age male a combatant and wipe out whole families, school buildings, hospitals, markets, weddings, and funerals.
They thrive on the conditions routinely suffered by Palestinian civilians in Gaza, where Hamas holds power. In Christianity Today, where I work, a pseudonymous Palestinian Christian explained how the "situation of Gaza was dire even before this war began" because "Gaza is densely populated and very poor. Half the population lives in poverty, and many are unemployed."
Many have observed, correctly, that we must distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians more generally. The millions of Palestinians who live in Gaza—and in Israel, the Palestinian territories, and elsewhere—are not all members or even supporters of Hamas. Around half of the population of Gaza is under 18, which means they were infants, toddlers, or even unborn when Hamas took over Gaza in 2007. This is not a representative government simply doing the will of the people (something even truly democratic governments don't always do).
But it's also not simply a hated local crime syndicate. Hamas is not universally, categorically rejected by Palestinians. Of course, many Palestinians do completely oppose Hamas. But many do not, and only a willful ignorance would refuse to ask why.
A 2021 poll, conducted after a smaller Israel-Hamas war in Gaza, found a slim majority of Palestinians, 53 percent, believed Hamas is "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people." This was a crisis-prompted lurch toward Hamas, pollster Khalil Shikaki told the Associated Press, likely to prove short-lived as Hamas failed to materially improve Palestinians' lives. Still, that number is not a wild outlier. Another poll by Shikaki's organization, conducted this past summer, found 52 percent Palestinian support for armed resistance to Israel.
As the Palestinian Christian writer mentioned above observed, "The poisonous plant of Hamas has been able to take root in our soil." And why? Significantly "because of conditions fostered by a flawed approach to Palestinians from the Israeli government."
That phrase—a "flawed approach"—will almost certainly be an understatement about the Israeli military retaliation for Hamas's monstrous attack. Heading into this past weekend, 1 million civilian Palestinians in Gaza were warned to flee ahead of an Israeli ground incursion. But how can they flee? Where will they go? Borders are sealed. Gaza is small. Again, about half the population is children. People are moving, but their options are limited.
A Reuters report published Thursday told the story of a 31-year-old Palestinian man named Ala al-Kafarneh. He fled his home "with his pregnant wife, his father, brothers, cousins, and in-laws," first to a coastal refugee camp, then elsewhere, after Israeli airstrikes hit around the camp. "On Tuesday night, an airstrike hit the building where Kafarneh and his family were sheltering, killing all of them except him."
Kafarneh's position is unfathomable—a pregnant wife and unborn child, dead and recorded, nameless, in the list of family casualties. Would it surprise anyone if he turns to violence now?
That is not to say he would be justified in seeking a violent revenge. To say that is to take a step toward moral madness, toward a cycle of escalation and chaos, not justice, mercy, or any other good. But it is to say that violence, by its nature, tends to spread. Once loose, it overruns moral boundaries and bends our souls into grotesque shapes. We are each responsible for the violence we commit, each to blame for the wrong we do, each apt to respond to evil with evil. Blood is on the hands that shed it, but it tends to spill all over.
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Blaming Hamas Shouldn't Mean Ignoring the Palestinians' Plight
I'm glad SOMEONE posted this article, because I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of complaints from our institutions about Hamas.
Yeah.
Terrorism does not thrive on peace and normalcy. It thrives on war and chaos and overbroad revenge projects.
The 9/11 hijackers were just trying to practice their religion of peace until they got caught up in the Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach's plot to exact overbroad vengeance on the Twin Towers, The Pentagon, and The WH who personally and directly wronged them.
The statement "Terrorism does not thrive on peace and normalcy" is worth disputing based on a lot historical counter-evidence. Not to Godwin the discussion, but it is nevertheless on point to note that the terrorism against Jews and Gypsies in pre-WW2 Germany wasn't the result of any real fault due to those group's past actions toward Germans. It was a fiction created for political goals.
Besides, Hamas isn't engaging in terrorism on behalf of some secondary goal - any terror they impart is incidental to their stated goal of eradication.
Bullshit.
Pre-nazi Germany was much more violent than 1934-1939.
Ever hears of friekorps?
There were literal battles against, and purges waged by, communists throughout the country.
Challenge your bigotry and watch the three minute segment of the video I’ve presented below. After all, it is a prominent Jew speaking.
Israel is a xenophobic stolen apartheid state. Jews have oppressed and terrorized Palestinians since they stole Palestine and started the Middle East conflict in 1948.
What business do we have promising unconditional support for a satanic religious cult? What do we get out of it?
I would prefer to hear from both sides before making a decision.
Which mainstream media outlet is interviewing the Palestinians in Israel, particularly the West Bank who have experienced 75 years of Jewish terrorism, apartheid and oppression while their homes and communities are bulldozed and new Jewish ones are built in their place?
Let’s hear from the Palestinians to recount what Jews have done since they promised to bring the US into WW1 in exchange for the British promise of Palestine via the Balfour Declaration.
Hell, since that won’t happen in our environment of propaganda and censorship, listen to an uncommon Jew tell the truth.
Miko Peled is an Israeli, an author, a public speaker and the son of a famous Israeli general.
He is also opposed to Israeli apartheid of Palestinians.
In the following video he puts into perspective what you won’t see in our western propaganda.
Between 40:40 and 43:45 in the video he describes Israeli terrorism.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckF
“ Why can’t the Jews have just one Jewish state?”
Uh, how about because of a little thing called the human rights of the non Jewish people who already live there.
From the Balfour declaration specifically recognize the line, “ it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,” because that CERTAINLY ISN’T what Jews have done or are doing in Palestine.
If the Balfour Declaration was considered “crap” why did Jews reference it in the fourth line of their declaration of the state of Israel in 1948?
In other words, Israel has far leftists just like everywhere else.. It’s like a holocaust revisionist quoting from Norman Finklesteins “the holocaust industry”, while conveniently leaving out the part about his family members being survivors.
You do you bigot.
I am bigoted against third positionist trolls, yes.
This is untrue. First of all, Jews were the majority population of Jerusalem in the 19th century. Second, Jews were buying the land in "Palestine" (derogatory Roman term designed to humiliate the Jews after the revolt that was ended by taking the Masada fortress by naming the area after Jewish rivals of old - Philistines) and the problems have arisen when they tried to take possession of the land they purchased. Arabs started killing Jews, who have established Haganah (today IDF) to defend themselves. Husseini, the mufti of Damascus, has even supported Hitler during the WWII, in order to exterminate the Jews. If anyone had their country stolen, those were the Jews, not Arabs. Second, Israel is not an apartheid state. Approximately 20% of Israelis are Arabs. They have representation in Kneset, they serve the army and are paying taxes. Arabs are Israeli citizens, just like Jews, and are completely equal in rights. The silly phrase about "apartheid state" is a ludicrous invention of the left. Does Israel have its problems? Of course it does, as any other country on the planet. However that fabled "apartheid" is not one of them. Basically, this was a leftist tirade that makes many things, but not sense.
Forget it, Groucho. Herr Misek's skull is Nazi-Land.
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You admit that Jews lived with Arabs in Palestine before 1948. Of course they did.
Jews demonstrate that terrorizing and systematic discrimination is a motivator to sell.
Did you even watch the video segment by a prominent Jew describing Israeli terrorism?
3 minutes from 40:40 to 43:45. Recognize or refute it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
Palestinians are going to end up hating Jews anyway. What's your point in that 3 minute section where one -ONE - Jewish citizen of Israel presents a one-sided description of how some, only some , Palestinians are less privileged than Israelis.
One section in the West Bank has always, since time immemorial, been called "Judea " - "place of the Jews." Jews are the original inhabitants of Israel, the natives living in the land where they originated - NOT a "stolen apartheid state". And hatred of Jews is the oldest prejudice in human history.
After the Holocaust Jews rightfully decided to stake out a tiny section of land on the planet where no one would ever again throw them out or treat them as second-class citizens. That is all they ask. Of course they have laws that discriminate against non- Jews -- because they are ensuring that no one will ever again be able to harm them and throw them out of their own country.
The hatred coming from you, Rob Misek, is proof itself of the eternal threat Jews have always and will always experience. Your very words simply prove that Jews can trust no one with their own safety because the ancient Jew-hatred that you have absorbed will rear its sick malignant head forever. Leave them alone. They are not harming you or yours. And you are simply an object of pity.
Thank you. Hurrah for Israel!
Hey, stop trying to confuse us with the facts.
We don't need no stinkin facts to figure out what's going on here.
"Challenge your bigotry and watch the three minute segment of the video I’ve presented below. After all, it is a prominent Jew speaking."
Being told to "challenge your bigotry" by a Neo-Nazi fanatic is like bein gtold to "check your sources" by Alex Jones, or to "question authority" by Kim Jong-Un.
"What business do we have promising unconditional support for a satanic religious cult? What do we get out of it?"
We're going to need to see your empirical proof that the religion you're condemning is a "satanic religious cult", or else (by your own chosen criteria) be proved a liar. Maybe also, provide some kind of explanation about why the "one true religion" retained the satanic scriptures as part of their own when they splintered off from the supposed cult.
"I would prefer to hear from both sides before making a decision."
You keep repeating this, but have never shown any evidence that it has any relevance to your fundamentalist embrace of bigoted dogma, and seem to frequently use baseless and unprovable (or irrelevant) assertions as "evidence" which refutes the version of history which is supported circumstantially by German Government records from the 1930s-1940s, by eyewitness testimony from thousands of people who experienced it first hand, by confessions from many of the people who carried out the operations (they didn't deny that it happened, only claimed to not be guilty because they'd done it while under orders from those higher up their chain of command), and by the fact that millions of civilians who had been living in Europe in the 1930s were no longer there, and were never seen in any context or living under assumed names anywhere on the planet in the 7 decades since
So you don’t want to challenge your bigotry. You’ll be unable, unwilling to respond to the speaker describing Israeli terrorism of course.
By all means don’t take my word for it. Why don’t you refute these Jewish sources bragging that Jews created freemasonry which worships lucifer.
THE JEWISH TRIBUNE, New York, Oct. 28, 1927, Cheshvan 2, 5688, Vol. 91, No. 18: “Masonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic ritual and what is left?”
LA VERITE ISRAELITE, Jewish paper 1861, IV, page 74: “The spirit of Freemasonry is the spirit of Judaism in its most fundamental beliefs; it is its ideas, its language, it is mostly its organization, the hopes which enlighten and support Israel. It’s crowning will be that wonderful prayer house of which Jerusalem will be the triumphal centre and symbol.”
LE SYMBOLISM, July, 1928: “The most important duty of the Freemason must be to glorify the Jewish Race, which has preserved the unchanged divine standard of wisdom. You must rely upon the Jewish race to dissolve all frontiers.”
AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONRY,Philadelphia, 1906: “Each Lodge is and must be a symbol of the Jewish temple; each Master in the Chair, a representative of the Jewish King; and every Mason a personification of the Jewish workman.”
MANUAL OF FREEMASONRY, by Richard Carlile: “The Grand Lodge Masonry of the present day is wholly Jewish.”
THE FREEMASON, April 2, 1930, quoting Br. Rev. S. McGowan: “Freemasonry is founded on the ancient law of Israel. Israel has given birth to the moral beauty which forms the basis of Freemasonry.”
Rabbi Br. Isaac Wise, in The Israelite of America, March 8, 1866: “Masonry is a Jewish institution whose history, degrees, charges, passwords and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end.”
Benjamin Disraeli, Jew, Prime Minister of England, in The Life of Lord George Bentick: “At the head of all those secret societies, which form provisional governments, men of the Jewish race are to be found.”
LATOMIA, a German Masonic journal, Vol. 12, July 1849, Page 237: “We cannot help but greet socialism (Marxism – Communism) as an excellent comrade of Freemasonry for ennobling mankind, for helping to further human welfare. Socialism and Freemasonry, together with Communism are sprung from the same source.”
BERNARD STILLMAN, Jew, in Hebraic influences on Masonic Symbolism, 1929, quoted The Masonic News, London: “I think I have proved sufficiently that Freemasonry, as what concurs symbolism, lays entirely on a formation which is essentially Jewish.”
O.B. Good, M.A. in The Hidden Hand of Judah, 1936: “The influence of the Jewish Sanhedrin is today more powerful than ever in Freemasonry.”
JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1903, Vol, 5, page 503: “The technical language, symbolism and rites of Freemasonry are full of Jewish ideas and terms … In the Scottish Rite, the dates on official documents are given according to the era and months of the Jewish calendar, and use is made of the Hebraic alphabet.”
B’NAI B’RITH MAGAZINE, Vol. 13, page 8, quoting rabbi and mason Magnin: “The B’nai B’rith are but a makeshift. Everywhere that Freemasonry can admit that it is Jewish in its nature as well as in its aims, the ordinary lodges are sufficient for the task.
The ADL (Anti-Defamation League) of B’nai B’rith is a totally Jewish controlled organization with its main goal to destroy Christianity. (Also, the B’nai B’rith form a super-Masonic lodge where no “Gentiles” are admitted.)
TRANSACTIONS OF THE JEWISH HISTORICAL SOCIETY Vol. 2, p 156: “The Coat of Arms used by the Grand Lodge of England is entirely composed of Jewish symbols. FREEMASONS WORSHIP LUCIFER!
THE FREEMASONRY, Jan 19, 1935, quoting instructions by Albert Pike, who simultaneously was Grand Master of the Central Directory of Washington, Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of Charleston, Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry: “That which we must say to the crowd is – We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, That you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees –
THE MASONIC RELIGION should be by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of THE LUCIFERIAN DOCTRINE. . . Yes, LUCIFER IS GOD.”
The Jewish Guardian admitted openly on 12 April 1922: “Freemasonry is born out of Israel.”
The following could be read in the French masonic magazine Le Symbolisme (July 1928): “The most important duty of freemasonry must be to glorify the Jews, which has preserved the unchanged divine standard of wisdom.”
The high-ranking freemason Dr Rudolph Klein stated: “Our rite is Jewish from beginning to end, the public should conclude from this that we have actual connections with Jewry.” (Latomia, No. 7-8, 1928)
A speech at the B’nai B’rith convention in Paris, published shortly afterwards in The Catholic Gazette (London) in February 1936 and in Le reveil du peuple (Paris) a little later, stated: “We have founded many secret associations, which all work for our purpose, under our orders and our direction. We have made it an honour, a great honour, for the Gentiles to join us in our organizations, which are, thanks to our gold, flourishing now more than ever. Yet it remains our secret that those Gentiles who betray their own and most precious interests, by joining us in our plot, should never know that those associations are of our creation, and that they serve our purpose…”
“Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end.”—-Rabbi Isaac Wise
The Jewish Tribune newspaper, in 1927, in an editorial, stated: “Freemasonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic ritual and what is left?”
He’s got a special quote sheet minimized at all times that he can copy pasta from. Remember when one of your sources had David Irving as its source? And that whole “why won’t they dig up holocaust massacre sites?!” schtick pioneered by Eric Hunt? ( that you forgot to mention he did a complete 180 on afterwards?)
Keep pumping your postmodern dialectical “truth” cult.
Hahaha.
Of course you can’t refute anything that I’ve said.
BTDT.
"So you don’t want to challenge your bigotry. You’ll be unable, unwilling to respond to the speaker describing Israeli terrorism of course."
I've got no need to respond to the speaker in your video. He's expressing his opinions and subjectively describing anecdotal incidents from the perspective of an ideological activist. Basically, he's doing what you claim to think that anyone who believes that the Holocaust occurred is doing, except based on a far smaller pool of evidence.
I wouldn't even deny that conditions for Arabs living in Gaza are horrific and have been for years leading up to the current situation. I do understand how/why the situation reached a point where the Israeli government saw their part in creating those conditions to be necessary as part of protecting their own civilian population from groups which have the support of the Iranian government and who deliberately target civilian populations (not only Israeli, but also American and European going back to the 1970s and 1980s) using tactics including employing children and pregnant women as suicide bombers and targeting medical workers and ambulances when Israeli hospitals used to try to help provide care to the residents of Gaza. I also can understand why some people would choose to call such conditions "apartheid" (although if "Palestine" is at any level a sovereign nation separate from Israel, I'm not sure that such a label is properly applied); I've seen the attempts at twisting the language, but don't agree with the application of the term "genocide" at any level since "Palestinian" is at best a nationality identifier among a tiny subset of ethnic Arabs, and at no point has anyone with any gravitas in Israel called for the killing of all Arabs; the same can't be said for the members of Hamas and Hezbollah, who take an oath to kill all of the world's Jews or die trying as a condition of joining, or the religious "Revolutionary Council" of Iran who provide support and weapons to those two organizations.
I'm not going to waste time addressing the litany of likely misquotes, false or incomplete translations, and decontextualized nonsense around the Freemasons (did they give you indices of this stuff in the "schools" when you grew up around the Church of the Creator in Hayden Lake?). All I can say on that topic is that everyone I've ever known who's been a member of any kind of "masonic" organization would likely say they're Christian by religion (practicing or not) although I've never really asked any of them.
https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-freemasons/user-x
I suppose these people all worshipped Lucifer?
Ask your local Masonic lodge when the next blood sacrifice is.
You don't think that U.S. Citizens have a right to keep and bear arms without being in a "well-regulated militia" and don't believe that individuals have a right to swap lies in a fishing boat, hold surprise parties, or protect proprietary business information! So don't lecture anyone about human rights without expecting my reply!
Fuck Off, Nazi!
The democrats are still pissed because the republicans (Lincoln) took away their black slaves.
Now democrats want jews in the chamber slam the lid because jews support freedom.
"It was a fiction created for political goals."
I don't know about that; I think Hitler actually believed what he was preaching.
It was Ludendorff who likely lead Hitler to believe what he did and Ludendorff definitely had political motivations in finding conspiracies among others.
There are photographs of Hitler in 1919 at a Jewish communist leader’s funeral, wearing a red (commie) armband. So his politics mutated a little, by a few years after that. But I’m not sure specifically what steered him into The Stab In the Back camp.
https://youtu.be/UpuGRO72GbA?feature=shared
My understanding has always been that the conditions of post-World War I Germany were rather poor, which is the sort of breeding ground for violence and terror that the author describes. It's the ascribing those conditions to the Jews that was the lie.
The conditions in a lot of post-WWI countries such as Romania and Serbia was pretty bad.
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I call bullshit as well.
Hamas knew exactly what it was doing. Do you the Hamas expected Israelis to go "oh this is too much and pack up their bags and leave the Middle East?"
No, they poked the bear knowing full well that Israel would do at least 10x the damage in response and THAT will refresh the ire of most of the world.
Mostly, terrorism appears to thrive when it is funded, trained, and given safe harbor by totalitarian but otherwise stable nation states. Mostly by the Russians, although Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the US have done their fair share.
With the exception of the Tamil Tigers, i'm having trouble thinking of a single impactful terrorist group that wasn't heavily subsidized by at least one foreign country.
Just for your information, Tamil Tigers have been heavily financed by India. Unfortunately for the Tamils, they didn't have enough people to force the partition of Sri Lanka, despite rather generous finances from India.
I'm really tired of the victim Olympics.
Both sides rely on who can garner the most pity.
I respected Israel for their ability to defend what they'd built by force of arms, but it's become advocates just shouting at each other about whether Jews or Palestinians are the bigger victims.
Cut that passive aggressive shit out and do what you gotta do.
I’d say the Japanese suffered far more casualties in WW2 than America did.
And I’m fine with that.
War sucks, end it quickly.
There will be no resolution until Israel, including Gaza, is either all Jew or all Muslim/Palestinian.
This is an ethnic conflict that kicked off 75 years ago and won't stop until there's only one side left in the disputed region.
What Israel needs to do is expel all Palestinians and fortify the hell out of their borders with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. A nation as fortress.
Unfortunately for Israel, I think they missed their chance and are screwed now. Israel's military has gotten shittier and their neighbors are stronger, particularly hezbollah. Plus the US is no longer in a position to block Iran or Afghanistan in Iraq.
I think that's why they seem to be backtracking on the invasion of Gaza. They can't pour 300,000 men into that meat grinder without leaving their flanks extremely vulnerable. Hezbollah is already beating them up in the north, and will invade as soon as Israel commits to an invasion of Gaza.
This is an ethnic conflict that kicked off 75 years ago
No, it got started about 200 years ago.
200 years ago the Jews could not take the land if they wanted. Without the intervention from the west they would not have borders today.
And 1,000 years ago, the Jews ruled the land and there were no Muslims.
Did you have a point other than to make your ignorance obvious?
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Technically, Islam had conquered that part of the world by 750 AD.
Chucky shumer wants the final solution for israel.
Immediately.
Chucky shumer wants jewish baby heads chopped off after they are cut out of mother's womb by a palestine democrat.
Shumer wants death to america and israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perushim
This is the most accurate take I've seen so far. I believe you are spot on good sir. My fear is that with Israel backed into a corner, that it will force the Wests hand and start another large war.
It's not unlikely. Israel is in an untenable position. Yes, retribution against Hamas/Gaza would usually be wise as a deterrent. But announcing a ground invasion was idiotic. They can get away with bombing the hell out of Gaza, but an invasion opens them up too much. They don't have the military capability to do it on their own.
At this point they need to bomb the shit out of Gaza, as they've been doing, and recommit to military build up.
That would be reasonable tit-for-tat.
Unfortunately they got emotional and announced their intent for a massive invasion. Now they're screwed because all their neighbors and enemies called the bluff. Like after Obama's red line comment, there are no good options. Invading Gaza will lead to Israel's demise (and/or world war), but backing down reveals their weakness.
I don't like Israel being both weak and backed into a corner. It can only be bad news for Americans.
We have only Biden and his puppeteers to blame for all of this. Biden may well become responsible for the end of the human race. Something needs to happen long before the next election.
You are praying for president Harris? That would be fun, having in mind that "children of the community are children of the community".
I’m not being clear. Something needs to happen where all democrats and all RINO collaborators are removed. Not just Biden.
Sorry, still not clear. Could you please explain a bit better what it is you plan to do? (Please be specific, overtime is expensive!)
"This is the most accurate take I’ve seen so far."
That's because you're an ignorant pile of shit responding to another ignorant pile of shit. If it ain't on twitter, the ignoramus known as nardz didn't get it.
Both of you; please fuck off and die.
Sqrlvo, the syphilitic tumor, isn't intelligent enough to offer anything more than "Twitter bad, legacy media good" and yell like a little bitch.
Note the complete lack of analysis and inability to comprehend logic.
Also his ignorance of history. Prior to 1948, Jews hadn't ruled Judea/Palestine/Israel for 2,000+ years. Persians, Macedonians-Seleucids, Romans, various Muslims, Ottomans, then the Brits reigned.
Now keep your cock sucking mouth shut you boomer faggot.
Or come to Florida and I'll be happy to beat the piss out of you.
This is NOT an ethnic conflict. There are Arabs on both side of the fence: in Gaza and in IDF. Some of the tank crews around Gaza strip are comprised of Arabs. The conflict is religious, and that's how it manifests itself. The terrorists from Hamas do not fight for "Palestine", they fight for Islam. We are dealing with a bunch of religious fanatics who want to destroy the state of Israel. We mustn't let them.
"including Gaza, is either all Jew or all Muslim/Palestinian."
If it were all Jew, how would that really change anything. There would still be dozens of Arab/Islamic countries that would always be on the verge of war with Israel; there would be Palestinians in those countries rebuilding Hamas.
The already tried to expel the Palestinians - ethnic cleansing if you will.
The problem is the rest of the world is watching and that might be enough loose USA support.
On the otherhand, if they re responding to a terrorist attack, the IDF can go hog wild!
1400 Israeli deaths (mostly civilians)
9000 Palestinian deaths (mostly civilians)
Why would one not be justified in seeking violent revenge? I know that I would want to avenge my family, if my loved ones were murdered by someone, Why deny that moral right to the citizens of Israel? If someone harmed my wife or my son, I wouldn't just want the perpetrator imprisoned, I would want him impaled onto a pole or burnt at stake. US should understand and approve of the Israeli desire for revenge. False equivalence saying that revenge would make Israel the same as Hamas is rubbish. Hamas has perpetrated a massacre of civilians. The only way to repay them is to slaughter "their" civilians. And yes, I am Jewish.
I don’t disagree with the concept of revenge. I’m from Scottish stock myself.
Israel helped fund, create, and perpetuate Hamas. And they also did the same for ISIS and stated they were convenient tools in providing the excuse they need to grow their borders. I am sure if you would refresh your mind on what the map of Palestine looked like 50 years ago it might jog your memory.
There is no Palestine. There are no ‘Palestinians’. Amd it’s not Israel’s fault. They’re the ones who want to live in peace.
It’s not their fault that Muslims are bloodthirsty murdering monsters that worship a death cult.
1) Doesn't matter what they call themselves - they are there and have claims to territory inside of what Israel controls.
2) 1400 Israeli dead vs. 9000 Palestinians dead.... whose the blood thirsty one?
As for worship, I agree, worshiping a mythical god is crazy. Crazier still is to kill for the mythical god.
But hey, what are you going to do?
Hamas was established by Palestinians, not by Israelis. Saying that Hamas was established by Israelis is a nutty conspiracy theory, the Alex Jones country. When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, local Arabs elected 2 terrorist organizations: Hamas and Islamic Jihad to rule Gaza. Israel has expected them to start negotiating the two state solution, which Hamas refused to do. Hamas should be aware that they will not be allowed to destroy the state of Israel. And that's really that.
Israel has a right to retaliate.
Would just like to make the point that Bibi screwed the pooch here.
1) He encouraged Hamas and propped them up because he didn't want the Palestinians to unite west bank and Gaza
2) His coalition encouraged the settler movement which is poking the hornets nest in the west bank
3) As a result of 2) he moved a bunch of troops and nobody was looking at Gaza
4) He let the Gaza border area security go to shit, didn't update the equipment etc.
Bibi was incompetent as was his leadership
If "the only way to repay them is to slaughter their civilians," then you have lowered yourself to the level of terrorist or savage yourself. Congratulations.
Hunt down Hamas. Take out every single individual who planned or implemented or materially, intentionally supported the reprehensible attacks on innocent Israelis. Target innocents, and the parents and children and friends of those innocents have every right to kill you right back. Weird how that could lead to a cycle of violence you can't get out of, isn't it?
Israel doesn’t target civilians. Hamas uses civilians as human shields to wage a PR war against Israel. So there is no hunting down Hamas without killing civilians.
"...Hunt down Hamas..."
You first. Let us know how it works, and until you do STFU.
Oh, don't worry, There is a lot of people willing to hunt Hamas. However, the Israeli leadership is aware that this will be an urban combat like no other and that their technology advantages will be negated in the apocalyptic urban combat in Gaza.
If the people who planned, executed, or supported the assault hide amongst civilians and place their weaponry amongst the civilians...whose responsible for "collateral damage"?
The party telling people to evacuate or the party trying to prevent them from doing so?
I may have "lowered myself to the terrorist standard" in your eyes, but I am a practical person. I want peace and security for Israel, in any way possible. Since the conflict is a religious conflict, motivated by the religious zeal, peaceful solution is not possible. The ideal solution would be for the Palestinians to convert from Islam to Quakers or Amish but that is not very likely.
The whole conflict is about the Arabs to accept the 21st century, human rights and democracy. Arabs still have absolute monarchies and slavery. The West does have an enormous technological advantage and could force the Arabs to give up their medieval culture, if we wanted to. It is not possible to make an omelette without breaking some eggs. All we need is the political will to do that. An alternative is terrorism for decades to come.
So let us say it: Hamas is to blame.
She could have just stopped right there. But NOOOOOOO!...
And yet if we stop the judgment there, it will be incomplete, and Americans who are old enough to remember the 9/11 attacks—to which the Hamas onslaught has rightly been compared—should know this better than most. We should know, as we learned at the expense of hundreds of thousands of American, Iraqi, and Afghan lives over the subsequent two decades, that terrorism does not happen in a vacuum.
Yeah, Christianity is big on stopping "judgement" all right. "Discernment" is the Christian code word for blowing the dust off the brain and hoping it might work after a lifetime of misuse and disuse.
The fact that the U.S. was ham-handed on fighting terrorism post 9/11 does not mean that we stop fighting terrorism, nor does it mean that we do some social worker "root causes" sociological psychoanalysis bullshit with religious and ideological fanatic murderers!
On the contrary, judgment and discernment is a necessity of life. Plenty of Christians have determined that Hamas must be stopped.
You don't speak for them.
Oh, you should hang out here more and get mouth-to-mouth from some our regular stupid Anti-Jewish trolls.
🙂
😉
But watch Dr. Thomas Sowell's video on Antisemitism if you just want to go under for the last time.
Thomas Sowell on the Truth behind Antisemitism
https://youtu.be/VkTHbJhvlLY?si=yRFfNYIxsOf35AHa
Might have been too subtle.
Before calling it a "flawed approach", I think you have to offer a practical alternative that has a realistic chance of being better than the approach you're criticizing.
What exactly do you propose that the Israelis do instead? Turn the other cheek? They tried that. They ran out of cheeks.
That's the big issue. Literally, when I ask people who have general complaints about Israel's response about what they should do, almost no one has a real answer.
My main problem with this thing is that I think it’s a setup.
That is a certainty. Hamas couldn't have pulled this off without significant backing, and their backers have their own goals.
If there were a simple answer, it would have been implemented 70 years ago.
If there were a good but complicated answer, it probably would have been implemented 40-50 years ago.
At this point, I have my doubts that there's any possible answer as long as the "two state" solution involves a non-contiguous border for either of the two nations. I think that a lot of Jews (probably not enough to make it happen though) would be open to consider a "secular one-state" solution, if there were some way to ensure that the Arab population wouldn't move to enact a new apartheid government (which would quickly turn into a second Holocaust if Iranian agents within Hezbollah and Iranian-backed fanatics of Hamas did to that nation what they did to Lebanon in the 1980s and 1990s) as soon as they became a numerical majority in the electorate.
As long as there's significant factions in the West committed to willful ignorance of the extent of genocidal intent against Jews in so many of the Arab Muslim nations in the region; and how that comes into direct conflict with Israeli Jews not accepting their being "driven into the ocean" as a viable path forward, it's doubtful that any possible solution could be considered acceptable. As long as an organization like Hamas, which exists primarily for the purposes of genocide and ethnic cleansing of the region is considered to be a legitimate voice at the table, it's almost impossible to imagine what solution could be reached that anyone.
I think what needs identifying first is WHAT is the 'flawed approach'. That's not detailed in the linked to article either. Though as an aside I really appreciate that the author links to diverse sources and not just lazy NYT/WaPo/Reason links.
The thing that surprised me about Saturday is that I had successfully been ignoring the whole region for a long time. Which is also surprising as that region usually just seems to love being the center of global attention for all the wrong reasons. And it turns out that that's not an accident. One of those approaches is to suppress attention via automated tech-savvy 'imprisonment'. Which is what backfired.
The problem with failing to re-identify a flawed approach is because sometimes a flawed approach is the same flawed as its always been so we can drag out last century's tropes. And sometimes the flawed approach is completely new and improved and (maybe now) even more flawed so last century's tropes are more like buggywhips
So let me ask you Rossami - what is the approach that you think is called 'flawed' here?
You're like the guy in the meeting with exaggerated credentials, who doesn't actually know anything about the subject matter, but you sure like the sound of your own voice.
I bet he has a nice business card though!
Lol. Jfree to a tee. ^
I didn't call it a "flawed approach", JFree. The author above did.
(She also quotes someone else using that phrase but her writing does not make it entirely clear who she was quoting.)
Ok.
I was hoping to hear some new approach. Like maybe - convert Palestinians to Judaism so that they can make aliyah or have them agree to the Seven Noahide Laws to be considered righteous gentiles or create some version of dhimmi or millet system in a one-state solution.
"I was hoping to hear some new approach..."
Yeah, chicken little, we all hope for that, not some whining from a brain-dead piece of lefty shit.
Get back to us when you have something to offer.
There is no such alternative. The situation is fucked up beyond retrieval. There is no right thing for Israel to do. The violent conflict will continue indefinitely.
This has been my position for years. I agree Israel has the wrong answer, but that's only because a right answer doesn't exist anymore.
If no better answer or approach exists, then I don't think you can call it a "wrong answer" or a "flawed approach". It is merely an approach with costs.
^+1. See down thread, ending WWII.
The best answer remains the WT Sherman quotes
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want."
Hamas has released video of a hostage being treated at a Gaza hospital. Making it an accomplice to their crimes.
There really are few innocents in Gaza. Any harm that befalls them are on the heads of all the other Gazans and nobody else.
"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."
The Palestinians think they can win because of the backing from their Arab and Persians support. But those peoples do not want the Palestinians to win, then only care that Israel loses. Which will not happen.
So long as the Palestinians persist in being cannon fodder for proxies their condition will never improve.
Best they learn their 'friends' are the real enemy before it is too late.
But it appears that Israel cannot follow Sherman's advice, or they will be invaded from another direction (or two). Now what?
The author thinks superficially rather than analytically, which propagandists do most all the time.
"Flawed approach" really?
That Ala al-Kafarneh's family was killed is just an unfortunate fact of war, a war that was started by Hamas, which committed 2 war crimes; targeting Israeli civilians in Israel and using other Gazans and hostages as protection.
Why then shouldn't Ala al-Kafarneh therefore become enraged at and seek violent revenge upon Hamas rather than on Israel?
Do we know if Ala al-Kafarneh has been a member or supporter of Hamas?
You don't think its *maybe* because he was displaced from his home, treated as a third class citizen, and been denied basic necessities like water, electricity, and medical care for the last 30 years? Are you aware that to get to a hospital in palestine from gaza you have to drive THROUGH the Israeli border right?
I can think of many reasons actually.
I can think of many reasons to call you on your lies, shit-eating scum.
Fuck off and die, but have someone mark your grave so I know where to shit, asshole.
Sqrlvo, the syphilitic tumor, showing his typical sarcasmic-esque rhetorical mastery!
Get shivved by an aids ridden heroin addict, shitlib.
If he had been denied those necessities, it wouldn't have been over 30 years. He'd have been dead decades ago.
Hamas relies on Israel for everything and then attacks them. They have made their bed. They may now sleep on it forever.
Also...turning water pipes into rockets makes one far less willing to see your side in a conflict.
Arab states do not want them. They have the right idea.
What exactly do you propose that the Israelis do instead? Turn the other cheek? They tried that. They ran out of cheeks.
There are people in Israel that are accusing Netanyahu of either preferring the Palestinian split between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank or at least taking advantage of that split.
https://www.businessinsider.com/middle-east-analysts-dispute-claims-that-netanyahu-propped-hamas-up-2023-10?op=1
That view is disputed, as you can see in the link. But two of the analysts quoted in that article also say that it was a failure of Netanyahu's government to do enough about Hamas and its failure to see the attack coming by underestimating Hamas that allowed it to be successful.
So, what could Israel have done differently? Well, Hamas isn't the only actor on the Palestinian side. It was useful to Netanyahu to please the ultra-orthodox right parties in his coalition to allow more and more Israelis to move into West Bank settlements. Those settlements are a huge part of the diplomatic paralysis in the two-state solution that has been the stated goal of negotiations for three decades. Essentially, the far right-wing of Israeli politics doesn't seem interested in peacefully coexisting with a Palestinian state, so much as fulfilling religious ideals of a single Jewish state in the Holy Land. If Likud could form a government without those far right parties, maybe things would have been different on the diplomacy front, but that's getting into counter-factual speculation.
"Essentially, the far right-wing of Israeli politics doesn’t seem interested in peacefully coexisting with a Palestinian state"
Intifadas and murdering sprees of civilians will do that to you.
Doesn’t take “far right-wing” people to understand that. JasonT20 just doesn’t get it.
Funny how whenever there is a huge terrorist attack, sympathy for the victims lasts maybe a week and then it's all about the terrorists and their perceived grievances.
Palestinians literally targeted pro-peace Israelis at a music festival, raping, torturing and murdering them in an orgy of violence.
Why should those people be given a state? The only people the Palestinians have to blame for their plight is themselves, because they are completely uninterested in peace, they just want to kill Jews above all else.
I must have missed the huge anti-hamas protests in Gaza that followed the attacks.
Or the anti-Hamas protests anywhere for that matter.
I saw plenty of anti-Israel protests following the Hamas attacks, but anti-Hamas protests would probably be racist or something.
The Chron had an article with a pic claiming 'thousands' in SF protested against Israel; pic looked carefully framed to make few look like many.
You must be very physically strong, because wielding a brush that broad requires great strength.
It's the Palestinian brush, not his. Demonstrated per their own protests.
You must be extremely stupid to assume anyone would take a lefty shit's assertion as either evidence or argument.
Oh please. Of the 47% that didn't support Hamas a large percentage of those supported even more radical extremists. We have seen the Palestinian kid shows where they teach the children to hate Jews, we saw the Palestinians dancing in the streets over both 9/11 and the attack on Israel and we know most Palestinians want Israel destroyed. Sorry there is no need to separate them from Hamas until they do a little separation from Hamas and other violent extremists themselves.
Not to mention the Arab countries that expect the US and the EU to fund refugees with fungible money that ends up attacking Israel while starving actual refugees, who the Arab countries expect to be sent to the US and the EU because they are refugees.
Where is the famous religion of peace when it comes to their own brethren? Nowhere to be seen.
It's a religion of piece. As in if you don't convert they will take a piece off of you here and a piece there and so on.
The fault there isn't on the Arab countries, it's 100% on the leaders of the EU and US.
The globalists have thrown open our wallets and borders to make war upon western natives. The Arabs simply sit back and let it happen.
No it isn't. It is 100% on Hamas, and the Gazans who vote for them and don't try to get rid of them.
"Not to mention the Arab countries that expect the US and the EU to fund refugees with fungible money that ends up attacking Israel while starving actual refugees, who the Arab countries expect to be sent to the US and the EU because they are refugees.
Where is the famous religion of peace when it comes to their own brethren? Nowhere to be seen."
Islam is a religion of peace. And Brutus is an honorable man.
Please provide a link to the poll showing those who don't support Hamas support more radical extremists. TIA!
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
Apparently Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Lions Den, both terrorist organizations, are also quite popular in Gaza. Until the Gazans show opposition to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations I won't feel any sympathy towards them when Israel lowers the boom.
I mean, just look at Lebanon. It’s a state, but it literally has a Arabic terrorist army (Hizbollah) occupying the border near Israel with no actual purpose other than to attack Israel
If Palestinians get a state, we’ll see the same thing.
I mean, just look at Lebanon. Actual history doesn't support anything you claimed.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, lefty shit.
So, since "we must distinguish" how are the Palestinians outside Gaza and aren't plotting Oct. 7th massacres faring? Is this the sort of case, like numerous others in history, where we have a violent political sub faction getting their just desserts and people on one side, or both, pretending like they're getting the fuck genocided out of them for no reason at all?
If we're going to fault Israel for their brutal oppression within Gaza, shouldn't we also be lauding them for, unlike Hamas and other Muslims, enacting a caliphate to purge with world of heathen infidels?
Can the next podcast be Robbie yelling at Bonnie?
I don't give a FUCK~!!!
Robby's balls grew six sizes that day.
Yea, totes takes a ton of balls to be in media and simp for jews...
Considering that the left has made their antisemitism shown, it sure does take guts to call them out. Give Robby credit for what it is.
I approve of this plan.
Robbie is a little bitch who only had an outburst because the sacred jews were targeted instead of Americans
Fuck Off, Nazi Nardz! Go join Herr Misek in his world of delusion!
You and I rarely see eye to eye...
How woke
We may have more in common than differences, but I admit I can be a cussed, quarelly bastard, and, after all, this is supposed to be a Libertarian hang-out, so no nit is safe.
Care to extend your apologia for terrorists back to why the circumstances in Gaza are what they are today? I'm old enough to remember the terror attacks by Hamas on israel until they implemented these strict controls. So how do you stop a genocidal group from genocidal action if your answer is open borders between them and their victims?
You must be very young. The circumstances in Gaza have nothing to do with what you claim. Gaza was a de facto concentration camp long before Hamas existed.
Concentration camp created by the people who live in the concentration camp.
"...Gaza was a de facto concentration camp long before Hamas existed."
Lefty shits constantly evoke Hitler; ignore them.
Does the 'G' in your handle stand for 'Goebbels'?
THe Gaza Strip was formerly a part of Egypt. Arguably, Egypt today had stricter border controls on Gaza than Israel did before Hamas's attack. An Arab, majority Muslim country wants nothing to do with the Gazan people because of how cancerous the politics of that region have become.
Concentration camp with a constantly increasing population.
How does that work, exactly?
No birth control allowed by Hamas...
"Terrorists do not find a significant constituency in stable, prosperous, reasonably liberal, and democratic places."
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you BLM and antifa.
Depends on what you want to call "significant".
The Middle East, along with the other Backwards Nations on the planet have been given a playbook and blueprint to create this thing invented in the West: A Nice Place To Live. Not that the Backwards Peoples would ever thank us (Colonizers!!!!). But the Backwards do tip their cap to the West by doing anything short of losing a testicle to move to a place like the USA. Strange. No one is taking a raft through shark infested waters to live in the Middle East, but the West gets a lot of that. The Backwards People–while loving the goodies and comforts of the West–have made it 100% crystal clear they want no part in doing the things required to transform their homes from s**tholes: liberal democracy, property rights, civil rights, etc. So, what more is there to know or discuss? This Reason spin–“both sides work together towards a blah blah”–requires BOTH sides to move on from the year 900AD. Let me know when the BACKWARDS (God, we need to bring back this word) Gaza is onboard to evolve a few centuries up. Until then, rinse and repeat your advice, Reason. You could’ve written this in 1985. Likely can dust off in 2025 after the next terrorist bleep show if Israel doesn’t clean house.
That is perfect! And hilarious!
900 AD?! Optimist.
I give 'em 700 AD, tops.
Oh, you're harsh, man. Harsh.
Wise words, and it's OK to say "shit" here.
🙂
😉
That comment was inspired. I had a good laugh.
Israel must exterminate Hamas. Which should hav e happened a long time ago.
Islam is a curse upon the earth.
Read most any of Benard Lewis' books; Islam remains sunk in the quicksand of fundamentalism.
Christianity had a marked reformation, less clearly marked was the Jewish ditto; both allowed the followers freedom of thought.
Islam, to this day, denies followers of the religion anything like that freedom. Hence, we get murderous Islamic scum.
And hence less Muslims is a good result for the human race.
Yeah, but you say the same thing about everybody you don't like.
Kinda lessens the impact.
Terroristinians are what Terroristinians do. May they eat their well deserved crow…
Well done or rare?
Aw, who cares...
Gaza would operate just peachy w/o Hummus.
This opinion dovetails nicely with the recent [paywalled] op-ed by Shadi Hamid, author of "The Problem of Democracy."
Gaza voted these assholes in.
If the Palestinians suffer from a "plight", it's because they allowed these people to rule over them. Not much different than Americans suffering under Biden or Russians suffering under Putin. If they really, really can't stand it, they can toss the asswipes out.
As it is, we are all apparently content with our rulers.
The difference is that any of them could have made a single phone all and this would never have happened. Israel makes its phones available for intelligence information. The issue is that with 6000 rockets coming into Gaza along with their launch vehicles EVERYONE KNEW and said nothing. They ALL wanted this to happen.
Israel knew. Israel wanted this to happen. This is the kick off of Netanyahu’s final solution to the Palestinian problem.
Ah, this explains all of your posts.
The lefty shit EdG. has not been very cautious in supporting lefty shit causes.
Him going the full-on anti-Semitic evil Jewish conspiracy is impressive though.
It is truly astounding how they 'out' themselves. It is truly like a moth to a flame.
Or an asshole to assholery! Meet Ed!
US intelligence gave Israel a heads-up, and so did Egypt. I'm not saying Ed's right, but I don't think that position should be dismissed out of hand, either. It's still a valid question why the Israeli government appears to have done nothing out of the ordinary to prepare despite warnings.
And we should believe that why?
No, it's really not a valid question.
"Israel knew. Israel wanted this to happen. This is the kick off of Netanyahu’s final solution to the Palestinian problem."
Awful nice of the Jordanians---oops, "Palestinians" --- to do...exactly what everybody knew they'd do given half the chance.
I love your lack of outrage over the mass killing of Israeli civilians.
You are so right. A bunch of assholes in the US voted in the execrable Donald Trump and we are still suffering from the mess he left America in. That's why we tossed the asswipe out in a landslide -- Biden got a 7 million popular vote win and a 76 vote Electoral College win.
Stuff your TDS up your ass Ed, your head is begging for company. And then, please make the world a better place: Fuck off and die.
But have someone mark your grave so I know where to take a crap.
Oh, I see, you’re a Marxist traitor. Here to spread Marxist democrat propaganda.
Your it would be better spent committing suicide.
There were no new wars by US during Trump's presidence.
Wasn't a couple months of Biden before our worldly adventurism got kicked back into full gear.
Trump will be president again; the majority of the people, even those who don't like him, will see there is no other practical choice. Then maybe there will be relative peace again.
Didn' Hamas seize power?
Hush now. You are interfering with "the narrative" with these pesky facts.
(Hamas did win an election that covered all of the Palestinian territories, but not actually Gaza. There they just took over)
And that was intended to convey what message?
Point of order, I don't think the citizens of Gaza voted anyone is. To my knowledge, Hamas has never held an election. In fact, they are an expressly anti-democratic organization. So the question becomes a matter of tolerance.
The Palestinian Authority held legislative council elections in 2006. Hamas won them, both overall and in Gaza in particular, both by overall percentage and by specific constituency seats.
You can argue that that isn't much of a democratic mandate, particularly at this late date -- but it was the first, last, and only free(-ish), fair(-ish), and generally-contested election in Palestinian history.
Sort of:
Legislative elections were held in the Palestinian territories on 25 January 2006 in order to elect the second Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats.
I’m wondering if voting against Hamas at this point might get you put on a list you don’t want to be on (or last long on).
And your message?
call B.S. Bottom line, in an area 1/3 the size of Dallas there are twice as many people. Those people had to have seen and known of the 6000 missiles and lunch system, and all the armament brought in to make the attack. There is no way that this was a secret inside Gaza. Many people knew and did and said nothing.
20,000 people crossed into Israel DAILY to work. Someone of them KNEW. Not one said a word to the world.
Polls show that over 66% of the population of Gaza support Hamas. Polls show that many of the rest support one of the other 3 to 5 terrorist organizations in Gaza.
Please, do not talk to us about a better ending, a more humane ending, a peaceful ending; until YOU can explain to the world what that looks like and how to go about it. This has been the same since the Arab World kicked the Palestians out of their domains and FORCED THEM to go to Israel at the very instant that Israel was formed by the U.N. In the Middle East EVERYTHING is about TRIBES and RACE and hidden behind Religion.
Wow, so many lies in a relatively short diatribe. You win the Internet today.
Giving you some competition there, steaming pile of lefty shit.
..and before the Arab World "kicked the Palestinians out of their domains..", the Palestinians lived where, exactly? Until what happened, exactly?
Egypt and Jordan until they caused huge problems.
The Jews are literally famous for causing problems and then being kicked out of societies literally throughout history. The literal bible is based on this concept lol...
"The Jews are literally famous for causing problems and then being kicked out of societies literally throughout history. The literal bible is based on this concept lol…"
Like, oh, bringing prosperity to where they go, and disturbing lazy shitbags like you?
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Fascinating watching you antisemites come rushing out of the closet when you think there’s a PC way to blast Jews.
Nothing about The Holy Bible from the time of Adam and Eve to David and Solomon has any archeological, anthropological, cosmological, or biological confirmation. Even after that, there are contradictions and absurdities throughout, as shown in The Skeptic's Annotated Bible/Qu'Ran/Book of Mormon
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
So the literal foundation of your Jew-Hatred is full of shit!
On the contrary, plenty of what the Bible speaks has historical truth. There are plenty of sites that give convincing arguments of the biblical events. I suggest you read this for a start:
https://soulliberty.com/refuting-the-skeptics-annotated-bible/
https://www.berenddeboer.net/sab/index.html
You have been an antisemite yourself with your anti-biblical views. You can repent, however.
Israel's goal is to militarily defeat Hamas so it will no longer be a threat to its people. To depict this is simply "revenge" is ridiculous.
Precisely. Just like a fight with a assailant seeking you harm, you do not seek revenge. You seek an end to the violence. Hamas has proven itself unreasonable, so reason will clearly not suffice. Hamas needs to be defeated, interred or killed; not punched in the nose.
These idiots suggesting compromise would have given half the west of the US to Japan after Pearl Harbor.
Given what the West Coast is today, couldn't that have been a better outcome?
During the 50 days of hostilities lasting from 8 July until 26 August 2014, 2,251 Palestinians were killed; 1,462 of them are believed to be civilians, including 551 children and 299 women. 66 Israeli soldiers and five civilians, including one child, were also killed.
Imagine you are a teenage boy in the Gaza Strip in 2014, and your Mother and baby sister were among those killed by Israeli Airstrikes. Now you are a young man in your mid-20s, an experienced member of Hamas, bent on revenge.
Air attacks favor Hamas at the expense of civilians. They are mostly young men, fast on their feet, and better able to run and duck for cover. Women with babies and small children find it hard to take cover in a timely fashion.
Many of the commenters here are make rabid accusations against Palestinians in general as if what has happened to them over the past 75 years shouldn't have affected their thinking. Yet many of these commenters would go on a murderous rampage if they were treated the same way.
There are several zionist activists on this site. They try to cover all the bases.
So, do the Palestinians shoulder any blame in your mind? Or are they lacking any agency and are just knee-jerk reactive morons?
They're like Ed; ignorant knee-jerk victims of an unfair world. And proud of it.
Actually, that sounds like you. Single dimensional thinking combined with a mind like a steel trap -- nothing gets in, nothing gets out.
"Actually, that sounds like you. Single dimensional thinking combined with a mind like a steel trap — nothing gets in, nothing gets out."
Aw, poor lefty steaming pile of lefty shit whining about being called on his bullshit!
Whine to your momma, asshole.
A commentary that, while true, completely ignores Hamas' culpability in
1. triggering the 2014 Gaza War in the first place
2. hiding behind their own citizens as "human shields"
3. the fact that some (though certainly not all) of the Palestinian casualties were from Palestinian rockets and mortars (some so poorly aimed that they hit their own countrymen, others shot down or deflected by Israeli defenses).
Yes, a 14-year-old boy with no understanding of history could understandably be hurt, outraged and angry. That is no excuse for staying ignorant.
Eventually those who choose not to advance in behavior and thought and continue to perpetuate the same awfulness in their lives need to be held out as responsible for their own situation.
"1. triggering the 2014 Gaza War in the first place"
2014 was not the 'first place.' The conflict goes back decades earlier.
"2. hiding behind their own citizens as “human shields”
Same with Israel. They placed their Ministry of Defense in the heart of Israel's largest concentration of human shields, a city they call Tel Aviv.
" That is no excuse for staying ignorant."
It's an excuse for staying angry.
2014 Gaza war is a specific event. That's what he is referring to.
And placing the Ministry of Defense in the operating Capitol of a country is not utilizing human shields. It's literally what every civilized country does.
You're grasping to defend terrorists on this one.
Like Bill Maher said, I'm honestly amazed at the level of antisemitism on the left.
It no longer amazes me. Just watching the pro-Hamas rallies at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU sealed it for me. When someone like a Larry Summers is horrified, it means trouble; deep trouble. Right here in America.
As for mtrueman....well, it is pretty obvious where his sympathies lie.
"well, it is pretty obvious where his sympathies lie."
You noticed? Seeing as how I've made no secret of them and repeated them over and over.
"When someone like a Larry Summers is horrified"
You noticed? Neo cons support Israel. What else is new?
"...You noticed? Seeing as how I’ve made no secret of them and repeated them over and over..."
You've attempted to finesse them, steaming pile of lefty shit.
"2014 Gaza war is a specific event. "
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is not a specific event. It's a very long string of specific events. To pick an arbitrary point on the string and say it starts here is disingenuous.
"And placing the Ministry of Defense in the operating Capitol of a country is not utilizing human shields."
So, siting military facilities among civilians is not using human shields. I'm glad we cleared that up.
" I’m honestly amazed at the level of antisemitism on the left."
I don't have any animus toward semites. I'm anti-colonial, and root for the under dog, above all.
"The conflict between Israel and Palestine is not a specific event. It’s a very long string of specific events. To pick an arbitrary point on the string and say it starts here is disingenuous."
To claim otherwise is an adventure in sophistry, you steaming pile of lefty shit.
Fuck off and die.
No, you're an antisemitic moron who spouts nonsense as a hobby. You're both intellectually devoid and a Nazi. Good work.
"You’re both intellectually devoid and a Nazi."
Worse. I sympathize with the Palestinians.
No, what's worse is you sympathize with Palestinians by supporting Hamas and lambasting Jews when Hamas is actually the real problem for Palestinians. This is why you are intellectually devoid. You basically support the people who are actually subjugating Palestinians because of your antisemitism.
mNaziman blames the Jews, like mNaziman do.
"...Imagine you are a teenage boy in the Gaza Strip in 2014, and your Mother and baby sister were among those killed by Israeli Airstrikes. Now you are a young man in your mid-20s, an experienced member of Hamas, bent on revenge..."
Or imagine you claim some agency and realize your misfortune was largely caused by the agency which not attempts to recruit you to murder others.
Or are the Pals to be treated as lefty shits in the US treat blacks, with the racism of low expectations?
Problems by unreasonable people can not be solved by reason.
Israel has offered the "Palestinians" (whoever that is) and their Arab supporters all they asked for, multiple times, except ... non-existence. They have never accepted, and the last time, they never even answered.
Hamas was democratically voted into power by the Gazoids. Hamas performed (another) atrocity. Hamas is unreasonable. Therefore, it is time for the use of force. Even if you are a Libertarian. Force such as one uses on a wayward child. Force such as one uses defending against an assailant. Force such as one uses protecting one's nation.
This force is not for revenge. This force is not a punch in the nose. This force is to change behavior. It is quite clear this assailant will not stop attacking after subdued and released. Therefore, he can not be released. This is not complicated.
Time for Gaza to go away. Everyone in government and/or have participated in the act of war is jailed/executed. People who want to stay become Israelis (eventually). People who want to leave, leave. No more Gaza. Israel coast.
For all his flaws, the Trump administration figured out that much of the Middle East didn't support the "Palestinians" and viewed Iran as the enemy. Trump admin got several countries to open diplomatic relations with Israel, and clamped down on Iran. Few more diplomatic moves like this, and Hamas might have been starved. Progress. Biden, of course, had to reverse the whole ... and one might argue, but facts demonstrate, is a mess.
"...For all his flaws, the Trump administration..."
Please list those "flaws", other than 'mean tweets'. TIA!
Still waiting, TDS-addled shit pile. Or simply admit you are full of shit and then fuck off and die.
YOU, and the TDS-addled assholes like you gave us droolin' Joe, shit-bag, all because assholes like you focused on personality rather than results.
Up yours with a rusty, running chainsaw; you deserve nothing other for giving us droolin' Joe
Whatever you do, you must never utter the forbidden words: Right of return. Oops, I said it!
No such thing
This is simply not true. If you say Hamas is responsible for the atrocities in the region and stop there, you would be ninety percent complete. If you then say that terrorists thrive on chaos and strife you would be correct but incomplete: the chaos and strife is a creation of the terrorists and NO ONE ELSE! The fact that over half of the Palestinians put their faith in Hamas means that they, too, are terrorists regardless of any complaints they might have against Israel. It DOES make a difference why the hard-line government of Israel prevails: every time Israel has tried to make peace, Palestinian terrorists have derailed the process with terrorist attacks. This is not any kind of "flawed" policy towards Palestinians on the part of Israel. It is a rational response to unrelenting attacks over many decades by an enemy that does not want peace, prosperity or co-existence. That enemy only wants the complete and total destruction of the Jewish State of Israel. So go peddle it somewhere else where people cannot think or reason with facts.
"In one sense, this is a very easy question to answer: Hamas is to blame."
Wrong. There is occupier and occupied. Here's an easy question: Who is who?
Well technically they’re both squatting on Christian lands. I’d say they’re squatting on Roman lands, but nobody can track them down.
We're biding our time
Unfortunately, for Israel Palestinians are still among the living, at least for now.
"Unfortunately, for Israel Palestinians are still among the living, at least for now."
Unfortunately for the Pals, the Jews are still living and doing quite well in an area of their native lands.
Perhaps the Pals should face up to this condition known as "reality" to those of us not living centuries in the past.
So, when do you believe that Jews first appeared in Judea?
Palestinians aren't being occupied by the first Jews who appeared in Judea. That's Israel today.
I see you deflect from answering the question. I knew you would.
There is occupied and occupier. Who is who? It's a very easy question.
Yes, it's easy to show, historically that the Muslims are the occupier, but you were hoping your sophistry would suggest otherwise.
Please tell us your answer, with no deflection this time. And provide cites to support your claims.
Your act is tiresome, asshole.
There is neither “occupier” nor “occupied”.
Israel was founded almost entirely based on land legally transferred to Jews via private sales, from the Ottoman Empire, or the British Empire. There were very few Muslims living in the coastal areas in Israel. And many of them because Israeli citizens. Most of the Palestinians in Gaza either were born long after the founding of Israel, or they were immigrants just like the Jews.
Muslims then fought several wars against Israel and lost. It is entirely normal for losers in a war to lose their territory. Happened to Germans and lots of other people. Israel made numerous peace offerings and granted self-governance to the losers in these wars and they kept starting new wars.
All Palestinian rights to land in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank are forfeit. The international community should tell Jordan, Egypt, and a few other nations to take in the remaining Palestinians, and that’s the end of it.
"...Israel was founded almost entirely based on land legally transferred to Jews via private sales, from the Ottoman Empire..."
Or from Muslims selling their land and then later claiming to be 'displaced Pals'.
Seller's remorse? Once the Israelis established a modern nation-state, that land was far more valuable.
"All Palestinian rights to land in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank are forfeit. The international community should tell Jordan, Egypt, and a few other nations to take in the remaining Palestinians, and that’s the end of it."
You don't appear to have thought this through. The international community telling Jordan etc to take in Palestinians is not going to end the problem, it won't even convince Jordan to take them in. You have far too much faith in the international community, who are quite happy to see Israel and Palestine continue to fight as long as they keep it in the family and not spread beyond the borders. Believe it or not, this is a conflict between Israel and Palestine. Expecting the international community and Jordan (!) to pull Israel's chestnuts from the fire is nuts.
"It is entirely normal for losers in a war to lose their territory. "
But they want it back. And they don't want to spend the rest of their days languishing in European refugee camps. I should have thought all this was obvious. What on earth do they need to do to convince you?
"Israel was founded almost entirely based on land legally transferred to Jews via private sales, from the Ottoman Empire, or the British Empire. "
I'm talking about today. Woody Allen could show up in Israel tomorrow, claim citizenship, and get himself a house stolen from Palestinians. Maybe two houses. Such are the fruits of zionist occupation. And I oppose it. I'm an anti-colonialist. If I were born in the 19th century, perhaps I'd sing a different tune, and support all the atrocities you are advocating. Genocide, forced population transfer, apartheid, I don't like any of it.
"...Woody Allen could show up in Israel tomorrow, claim citizenship, and get himself a house stolen from Palestinians..."
It is lies such as this which you hope will support your bullshit.
Fuck off and die, asshole
Wow. You're a fucking moron.
Jordan itself is an artificial creation of the international community: the international community can force Jordan to accept this.
That's a lie.
You should join Misek's neo-Nazi club.
"Jordan itself is an artificial creation of the international community: the international community can force Jordan to accept this."
Which international community do you have in mind? The one I'm familiar with isn't about to start WWIII for the convenience of zionist hardliners.
WWIII isn't going to start over exerting pressure on Jordan to take in Palestinians. All it takes is a gentle reminder to its leaders that they continue to exist only courtesy of the US government.
"All it takes is a gentle reminder to its leaders that they continue to exist only courtesy of the US government."
I don't think that Americans are ready to die for the convenience of zionist extremists. Jordan poses no threat to the US and isn't likely to. Biden has warned Israel and Palestine against widening the conflict. It's not America's war, and most want to keep it that way. You're an exception, granted, but you're so completely immersed in zionist bullshit, your opinion is best ignored.
Good! The fact that Jordan poses no threat to the US makes them so easy to pressure.
Actually, with your insistence on an impossible solution (a single Israeli-Palestinian state), you do want to make this America's war.
I'm for a diplomatic solution to get this issue off the table: twist the arms of Arab neighbors to take in the Palestinians so that Israel can have some defensible borders.
There has never been a nation-state in the history of Earth that has not "displaced" the people who opposed the nation-state. The Loyalists fled the United States and headed to Canada, but they didn't continue to attack the United States from their new homes across the border, and Canada didn't allow them to try! Oops! Except for the War of 1812 when the United States did, in fact, invade Canada (again) to stop the attacks. So no - I don't think it IS just a question of which one is the occupier and which one is not. Most of the Muslims who fled the new Jewish State of Israel in 1948 didn't actually have to leave. They chose to leave because they didn't want to live in a Jewish theocracy. They preferred to live in an Islamic theocracy instead. It's all on them if they don't like how it turned out!
"There has never been a nation-state in the history of Earth that has not “displaced” the people who opposed the nation-state. "
And these forceably displaced people have always resisted the expulsion to the extent possible, haven't they? And this has been true for the entirety of human history, hasn't it? But now, with the Palestinians, suddenly they are terrorists. I'm not buying it.
"...But now, with the Palestinians, suddenly they are terrorists..."
No, they have been terrorists for quite some time. Nobody's buying your sophistry, asshole. Fuck off and die.
From "1948", Benny Morris:
The Jewish people was born in the Land of Israe, which it ruled, on and off, for thirteen centuries, between1200BCE and the second century CE.
The Romans, who conquered and reconquered the land and suppressed successive Jewish revolts in the first and second centuries CE, renamed the land Palaestina (derived from the country's southern coastal area, named Pleshet in Hebrew or Philistia in Latin after its second millennium BCE inhabitants, the Philistines) in an effort to separate the Jews, many of whom the exiled from the land. Among the Gentiles the name Palestine stuck."
That suggests the Jews can make a pretty strong claim to at least a portion of their historical kingdom as a modern nation-state.
...Morris:
(")The...
Sorry.
It is misleading the call the Palestinians or Hamas "terrorists"; in fact, they are the elected representative government started another war with Israel and committed grievous war crimes as part of that. The consequence of that should be unconditional surrender by the people of Gaza, and the imposition of the kind of solution solution we impose on the losers in wars of aggression, up to and including annexation and expulsion.
The situation is no different from Nazi Germany attacking its neighbors, losing, and losing a lot of its territory as a result.
"It is misleading the call the Palestinians or Hamas “terrorists”
I don't think so. They commit acts of violence against civilians, just like the US, Israel, Russia, and pretty much anyone else who finds themselves in an intractable conflict.
". The consequence of that should be unconditional surrender by the people of Gaza,"
Don't get ahead of yourself. They haven't been unconditionally defeated. In spite of years of Israel efforts to coerce Palestinian compliance, they grow more in number and angrier and more desperate. I don't see a military solution to the problem. Israel is too dependent on European and Western approval to deliver a final solution.
"...I don’t think so. They commit acts of violence against civilians, just like the US, Israel, Russia, and pretty much anyone else who finds themselves in an intractable conflict..."
Get ready for more Trueman bullshit; he's got nothing else:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
No, Israel has consistently pursued a policy (yes, even the "hardliners") of letting the Palestinians have a safe space in both territory, time and aid in which to regrow their terrorist infrastructure after every attack against Israel in hopes that the Palestinians will eventually get the message that they cannot eliminate the Jewish State. And every time instead of abandoning the blood feud that keeps them poor and homeless, giving up their tenacious attachment to the total destruction of Israel, and taking Israel's repeated offers of peace, whenever peace and prosperity in the region is in serious danger of breaking out they launch new deadly - in the most recent case - horrible atrocities to derail any chance of peaceful coexistence. Israel has never really tried to eliminate Hamas or the Palestinian territories, but this time they might! Governments can be terrorists too, so the distinction is moot. Relying on Europe and the US to moderate Israel's response for the umpteenth time may not be sound - Hamas may have gone too far this time with the massive atrocities and western patience may have worn very thin.
Bullshit. The US, Israel, and not even Russia attack civilians directly.
Yes, they have been.
The solution to the Palestinian issue is simple: expulsion to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. It's the only solution. And you are right: the West needs to come to terms with this.
"Bullshit. The US, Israel, and not even Russia attack civilians directly."
They kill civilians. Brownie points for doing it 'indirectly.'
The distinction is crucial. Killing civilians is permissible in war. Specifically targeting civilians is a war crime.
"The distinction is crucial. "
It's convenient, I'll give you that. So you favor the slaughter of Jewish civilians as long as the perpetrators do so 'indirectly?' Brownie points for a cynical regard for humanity.
If Hamas had formally declared war on Israel and targeted military sites, then any civilian losses in Israel would not have constituted war crimes. Since they did not do that, Hamas committed war crimes.
Since Israel has declared war and is targeting military sites, Israel's killing of civilians is not a war crime. And the high civilians losses on the Hamas side are due to Hamas using civilians as human shields, which is another human rights violation Hamas is committing.
Clear enough now?
" Israel’s killing of civilians is not a war crime. "
I never claimed otherwise. Read what I wrote. I said that Palestine, Israel, US, Russia and anyone else that finds themselves in a never ending conflict commits terrorism - killing innocents. Your reaction has been to justify Israeli, US and Russian terrorism as 'indirect.' I'm not buying you legalistic squirming.
You literally said that “[Palestinians] commit acts of violence against civilians, just like the US, Israel, Russia,”.
The actions of Hamas are war crimes, the actions of the US, Israel, and Russia are not. Hence, the actions of the Palestinians are not “just like” the US, Israel, and Russia.
By the way, as I pointed out the vast majority of these people were not forced out of Israel after the declaration of the Jewish State of Israel. A large number of "Palestinian" Muslims chose to stay and almost all of them did quite well there after making that choice.
"A large number of “Palestinian” Muslims chose to stay and almost all of them did quite well there after making that choice."
A large number left to avoid conflict. Now they and their children want to return to their homes. Is that such an alien concept for you? Is it really easier for you to believe the whole thing comes down to spiteful Palestinians who have no desire to return and simply want to dedicate their lives to hurting Jews? You seem to have a cynical and hateful view of humanity.
Almost none of them ever owned property in Israel or even Gaza/West Bank.
Millions of Europeans were displaced after WWII and lost “their homes”. None of them want to return to “their homes”, let alone their children.
My family lost our homes and were displaced. We don't want to "return". What does that even mean? Return to a piece of land with completely different communities and people on it? What would be the point?
The Palestinian belief system is similar to that of the Nazis: they believe that the world has wronged them generations ago, that the Jews are at fault, and that they are justified in lashing out.
The Nazis provide an existence proof that this understanding of the situation isn’t “cynical and hateful” but realistic.
"Millions of Europeans were displaced after WWII and lost “their homes”. None of them want to return to “their homes”, let alone their children."
So what? Seems a very dubious assertion, and irrelevant in any case. Thin reeds you're grasping today.
"Almost none of them ever owned property in Israel or even Gaza/West Bank."
So what. They still lived in homes, or is that something else you're going to deny?
"We don’t want to “return”.
You're not a Palestinian. They do. Again, so what and irrelevant.
"The Palestinian belief system is similar to that of the Nazis: "
Your knowledge of Nazis is weak. Same with that of Palestinians.
You asked: Now they and their children want to return to their homes. Is that such an alien concept for you? I explained that it is an alien concept to me, and to most other people.
I've lived in lots of homes. I don't have any right or expectation to go back to them after I have sold them or after my lease ran out.
No, YOUR knowledge of the Nazis and the Palestinians is weak. But you certainly hold some of their reprehensible beliefs.
Israel is "occupying" Israel?
Your phrasing seem to indicate that you do not believe that Israel should even exist, which means you are helping feed into the intransigience on the Arab side that sustains the violence.
To be fair, the Palestinians do not need any help feeding into their intransigence. Terrorists need too things: chaos even in the midst of a safe space from which to launch their attacks; and technical support - intelligence and weapons - from nation-state terrorist sponsors (in this case, Iran). The US has launched costly and deadly wars to eliminate the safe spaces in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. Personally I think the US should stop. But Israel cannot afford to stop and I doubt that they will pull up short in destroying Hamas' infrastructure this time. It won't work in the long run but their carrot-and-stick approach over the last few decades has clearly failed.
"Your phrasing seem to indicate that you do not believe that Israel should even exist"
I have nothing against Israel. It's ultimately a piece of real estate like any other country. It's this 'Jewish state' thing I object to. I don't believe a state should be elevating one ethnic or religious group at the expense of others. Call me a Nazi of antisemite if that makes you feel better, but that's my view.
Yet that is exactly what the Palestinians and all major Arab nations are doing. As opposed to Israel, which is the only explicitly multi-ethnic, multi-religious, tolerant society in the Middle East.
About 20% of Israelis are Muslim Arabs and 10% are Christians. The percentages in Gaza, the West Bank, and the neighboring Arab states are nearly zero because they have been religiously and ethnically cleansed. That is what you are defending.
Israel is a “Jewish state” only in the sense that it actually welcomes Jews and provides a home for them, because people have persecuted people with a drop of Jewish blood in them the world over and they have been safe nowhere. The majority of Israelis are actually non-religious.
I could live safely as a gay atheist of Christian heritage in Israel. In most Muslim nations, I would never be accepted and likely be killed.
"Yet that is exactly what the Palestinians and all major Arab nations are doing. "
I oppose them all. Don't you?
"As opposed to Israel, which is the only explicitly multi-ethnic, multi-religious, tolerant society in the Middle East. "
What's with this urge to parrot zionist talking points? You're starting to sound like Joe Biden.
"The percentages in Gaza, the West Bank, and the neighboring Arab states are nearly zero because they have been religiously and ethnically cleansed."
Again with the bullshit. You should be more skeptical and not believe everything you're told.
"I could live safely as a gay atheist of Christian heritage in Israel. In most Muslim nations, "
Desperate to play the victim card. Nothing would make me happier than to see Israel take all Palestinians, whatever their sexual habits, into their state on an equal footing with Jews.
I'm not "parroting" anything. I've been to Israel and I've been to Muslim countries.
Again, it is the Palestinians who refuse to live "on equal footing with Jews". And it is the Palestinians who refuse to live in a country that allows people with different sexual habits.
"Again, it is the Palestinians who refuse to live “on equal footing with Jews”. And it is the Palestinians who refuse to live in a country that allows people with different sexual habits."
That's one reason why I've repeatedly called for a one state solution where the state doesn't favor one ethnicity, religion or sexual preference over another. I never thought that such a position had anything to do with Nazi ideology.
Yes, the kind of state Israel mostly is. Not the kind of state Palestinians are willing to live under.
No, but Palestinians hold an ideology that is, in fact, akin to Nazi ideology, and you want to force Jews to live with these people in a single nation.
Fuck off mBSman, fucking Nazi scum. Go join the resistance in Gaza.
Yup. Hamas is occupying the Gaza Strip.
Lets turn that around. Does not ignoring the Palestinians' plight mean we have to let Hamas off the hook? Because that's exactly what it sounds like your article is calling for.
What it sounds like to me is that the writer of this article is trying to bend over backwards and perform boggling feats of mental gymnastics in a failed attempt to appear even-handed. Unfortunately saying that Israel is not totally blameless sounds more like "whataboutism" than fair-mindedness.
This is a discussion which occurs around 8/6 pretty much every year: Hiroshima!
Well, first, if you are to gripe about the nukes, you have to provide an alternative to ending the war; in the near 80 years since that time, no one has.
Except one year when Tony proposed having the US surrender to Japan; yes the 'no nukes' faction is that bereft of sense and facts.
So if you are to evoke the welfare of the 'civilian' Pals, you must provide an alternative whereby Israel might effect an end to the terrorism. Beats my pair of jacks.
No doubt— and I’m sure that blaming the Nazis for WWII and the Holocaust doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t feel sorry for the plight of the Germans who lived in Dresden. But winning the war required flattering that city, just like destroying Hamas will require flattening Gaza. War is hell, but it’s worse when you lose.
Sorry, but winning the war did NOT require flattening Dresden. It was an atrocity intended to demonstrate to the Germans that there was no place safe for them. It changed the outcome of the war not even a tiny bit.
Yes, it did.
And that was necessary.
Germany needed to be utterly defeated, its pride broken, and its society destroyed; that's how it could be rebuilt in a way that it is willing to live peacefully with its neighbors now.
Dresden was a major rail transport and communication center, housing 110 factories, as well as a major road center for north/south and east/west traffic.
"Dresden was a major rail transport and communication center, housing 110 factories..."
Day time raids conducted by Americans took care of the strategic assets. More indiscriminate night time raids by the British were responsible for the loss of civilian life and infrastructure - housing stock etc. Germany would certainly have lost the war whether or not Dresden was bombed. It was inevitable from the moment USSR was attacked.
"Day time raids conducted by Americans took care of the strategic assets."
Claims of facts not in evidence, shit-pile.
You literally speak like a German neo-Nazi.
Read A C Grayling's Among the Dead Cities for further information if you are curious.
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=028DD76A973D3DC13C11109A56D5EE4C
Be warned, it might be too German neo Nazi for your tastes.
Germans don't view it as a war crime. Germans consider your view to be the neo-Nazi view. That's good enough for me. What some leftist atheist thinks is irrelevant to me.
"Germans don’t view it as a war crime. "
I don't care what the Germans say. I'm pointing out the difference between riskier day time bombing and safer night time bombing and how it affects the civilians below. I don't care if you disapprove or think I'm a Nazi or any other insulting epithet. They only serve to underscore the obvious intellectual and moral bankruptcy of your statements. (I won't dignify them as an argument.)
Well, I consider the Germans an authority on whether war crimes were committed against them. I do not consider you as an authority.
I'm not arguing whether or not the Dresden bombing was a war crime or not. You've misunderstood. To repeat:
"I’m pointing out the difference between riskier day time bombing and safer night time bombing and how it affects the civilians below."
And I do recommend the Grayling book. It's not especially Nazi and it covers a lot of ground for a book on aerial bombardment.
You keep missing the point: it wasn't just Germany's military that needed to be destroyed, it is Germany's ideology, pride, and will to fight.
The Simchat Torah terror attack shows that the Oslo process (land for peace, two states living side by side in peace), disengagement, and conflict management are failed policies, and will be discarded.
Since there will not be a two state solution (rest assured, Israel will not commit national suicide), Israel will need to consider options when that becomes clear to everyone else. If palestinians truly want a better life, perhaps they would consider incentivized, voluntary emigration to another country in the region. That is a potential option. It is non-violent and voluntary. This option should be offered immediately to any palestinian (not just Gaza, but Judea and Samaria as well).
At this stage, I have to be honest: I am much more invested in seeing Israel physically obliterate Hamas within Gaza than I am the 'plight of the palestinians'. Hamas murdered Americans and took American hostages; I won't weep at their deaths.
" they would consider incentivized, voluntary emigration to another country in the region. "
How about Libya? Or Syria? From there they can board leaky boats bound for the welcoming refugee camps of Europe. Your idea is ill conceived and ignores the fact the conflict is between Israel and Palestine. It's incumbent on them to sort out their own problems and not expect the likes of Libya to do it for them.
Not concerned about Libya or Syria at this time. There are American hostages in Gaza right now. As an American, that is my concern (along with supporting Israel as they obliterate Hamas within Gaza).
"Not concerned about Libya or Syria at this time. "
You're obviously not a political leader of Europe or a Western nation. They don't want to see their countries flooded with millions of Palestinian refugees. Your concern over the fate of the hostages is admirable but the decision makers have bigger fish to fry. Obliterating Hamas, by the way, will not solve anything. Israel's problems predate the formation of Hamas and will continue after its demise.
That is pretty easy to avoid: don't let them in, and deport them if they make it.
"That is pretty easy to avoid: don’t let them in, and deport them if they make it."
But you're the one claiming that deporting the refugees from Palestine is the only solution. Deporting them to places where they will be be deported is no solution. And deporting Palestinian refugees to countries in Africa and the Middle East is no solution. These places are such an inadequate destination that they already contribute enormous numbers of non Palestinian native emigrants who've sought refuge in the West. You must know this by now. You clearly haven't thought this through and are parroting someone else's talking points.
Maybe relocate them to Canada? If that country will harbor an officer of the Waffen SS for 70 years, then celebrate him in their Capitol Building, maybe they'll also take a sizeable number who'd love to finish what the SS started?
More seriously, if they could figure out how to establish a "humanitarian corrodor" to evacuate Gaza, or at least clear out anyone not looking to die over that patch of ground (those aren't likely to be Hamas supporters), why not relocate those people to the West Bank? Give the Gazans the illegal settlements after pulling the Jewish settlers out of the area and withdrawing IDF troops from there.
Once everyone who isn't seeking death out of Gaza, give the remaining people there what they're demanding so loudly and annex that territory into Israel.
Once that's done, give the West Bank and the PA government full diplomatic recognition as sovereign Palestine and initiate some talks about access to holy sites in Jerusalem for their citizens with conditions that such access can be revoked immediately in response to use of force by Hamas or Hezbollah. Don't just offer conditions for a "two state solution", create one and force Iran's proxies to declare to the world that they never actually wanted it and won't accept it.
It hardly seems like there's any hope for anything like progress as long as "Palestine" includes a non-contiguous patch of land which they can neither govern nor defend the territorial integrity of. Pulling out the Zionist settlers from the West Bank would be a major gift to the P/A, and well worth the trade for Gaza as defensible Israeli territory.
Canada doesn't have a capitol building. They do their business in the House of Commons, or Parliament.
I agree with the thrust of your comments. But I would stress that any settlement would have to be arrived at through negotiations between the two adversaries. Israel unilaterally deciding to take some action, like their decision to vacate Gaza a few years back, probably won't work out for the best. Same for the Palestinians, though their scope for independent action is less than that of Israel, a nuclear power with the full backing of Trump, Biden and anyone else who's likely to occupy the White House.
The problem with waiting for it to happen bilaterally, is that it'll never happen that way. The sequence of events I was proposing was simply to get to a starting point from which some kind of long-term resolution might be possible; the key point being that once the Gazan population is re-settled in the West Bank (the idea of actually sending them to Canada was facetious and a bit of a shot at Trudeau), and normal diplomatic relations are established, including an Embassy of Palestine in the Israeli capitol city, then good faith negotiations can be started to get from that point to a tenable resolution (since some kind of Palestinian access to Jerusalem is a necessary part of a full resolution, but is also impossible if that access will be used to facilitate a return to suicide bombings by Hamas and Hezbollah).
Hamas sees the "occupied territory" as entailing every square inch of land currently shown on maps as "Israel" just as the PLO and Arafat did before them, but uses the language they do because their supporters on the Western Left continue to think that the term only applies to Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas also has no real interest in anything like a two-State solution, and has repeatedly refused to remove the total destruction of the State of Israel from their charter documents as the primary purpose for which their organization was created. The closest that's been reached at any point was that they "tacitly agreed" (meaning they didn't expressly oppose) a framework for peaceful coexistence.
The reason I think it needs to be done unilaterally is that having a geographically split "Palestinian State" seems to be as untenable as a split Jewish Israel (if somehow a corridor were added to connect Gaza to the West Bank). Further, meaningful negotiations involving Hamas don't seem to be possible, and negotiation with only the Palestinian Authority government in the West Bank won't get to a resolution as long as they're expected to be speaking for a population in Gaza which they can neither govern meaningfully nor protect.
Removing the majority (or the entirety) of the Arab population from Gaza is a bad solution, to be sure, but it seems increasingly likely that until it's done there likely can't be any tenable progress from the current situation. Also, simply killing everyone in Gaza and hitting "reset" is not an acceptable option at any level; relocation might be a necessary evil, but killing millions of non-combatants would be the kind of wanton evil which isn't even justified by the fact that Hamas would do it tomorrow if they could.
Yes: Israel should annex Gaza and deport them to Jordan and Egypt.
European nations should keep them out.
"Israel", "Palestine", and their neighbors are artificial creations of colonial powers. Those colonial powers got it wrong and that needs to be fixed. Their borders are not sarosanct.
"“Israel”, “Palestine”, and their neighbors are artificial creations of colonial powers. "
True, but the Palestinians and Israelis are not artificial creations by the colonial powers. They are human beings born to mothers just like you and me. They are all attached to their homelands. Decades of brutal occupation hasn't diminished this attachment.
I advocate a one state solution, where people live as citizens and no religious or ethnic group is favored by the state.
Yes, so were the Nazis after WWI. That “attachment” is the root of the problem: it is sick.
Yes, and Palestinians have rejected that for the past 70 years. Palestinians are unwilling to live in such a society. Their declared objective is to exterminate all Jews from the lands of Israel and Palestine. The Palestinians that are willing to live like this are already citizens of Israel.
If the citizens of Gaza wanted to live like this, they could also achieve that by peacefully co-existing next to Israel for a few decades and then eventually applying for becoming part of Israel. If your government mass-murders Israeli civilians, you are declaring that you do not want to live peacefully in a single state.
I've heard it all before. You're not the first one to parrot zionist propaganda.
"you are declaring that you do not want to live peacefully in a single state."
Nevertheless, the single state is ultimately the best solution. If only because nobody wants it. It is the obvious fall back/compromise.
I stated simple facts. You could easily verify them yourself.
It's propaganda. I'm disappointed you seem incapable or unwilling to think independently. I had hopes that this board would reject the failed policies of Israeli and Western politicians who rely on ignorance and emotional appeals.
I literally quoted for you the political program of Hamas, the democratically elected government of the Palestinians.
It is you who is "incapable of thinking independently"; instead you buy into a lot of leftist crap.
Creating single "nations" containing groups of residents who want to kill each other is how the British maintained control over an empire so vast that "the sun never set" on their lands, including a lot of what's now part of the general chaos making up the Middle East.
There are a number of borders in that region which probably should have been re-drawn from where they were placed by the UK government after WW1 when the Ottoman Empire was broken up, but the one thing that the map isn't currently lacking is nations where ethnic Arabs can find a life for themselves (although none of those will accept "Palestinian" Arabs, likely because doing so would take their ability to make trouble for the Jews in Israel (which is also about the only nation in the area where non-Muslim Arabs are tolerated or accepted).
Somehow I remember seeing the name of Israel mentioned a few times in the Bible. Somehow I also recall that the text of the Bible having been written a few years before the colonial powers had their way with the region.
Find them some deserted island in the middle of nowhere and plop them there. Let their putative allies finance the building of a society there. Of course once their usefulness of being a thorn in Israel's side is over I suspect Iran and other Muslim extremists will suddenly cease giving the Palestinians any more aid.
Their putative "allies" (and more realistically "brothers" since they're all ethnic Arabs) wouldn't supply a burgeoning new "Palestinian" State with a 100-pack of paper plates to help them hold a fund-raising "pancake breakfast" for their volunteer fire department to buy a jug for carrying 2 gallons of water to the site of a fire.
Palestinians do not truly want a better life. Their squalor and homelessness are self-inflicted. They are now working on their third generation of Palestinians who have no clue what the blood feud is about. Those young people have never lived in a world without the Jewish State of Israel in the region. They are ruled by terrorist organizations whose only goal is to die gloriously trying to destroy the infidels. Hamas cannot survive without a large population of murderously disaffected Muslims to hide amongst and the support of terrorist sponsor nation-states to provide them with weapons and intel.
"Palestinians do not truly want a better life. "
You should try to think for yourself. Parroting hateful zionist talking points is not a good look for you.
What he is saying is that Palestinians prioritize their hatred and historical grievances over wanting a better life, which is clearly correct.
"What he is saying "
I know exactly what he is saying. Problem is it's bullshit. A tiresome repetition of zionist propaganda.
This is the government that Palestinians voted for. This is what the majority of Palestinians want and believe in:
Goals of Hamas: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine".
On the Destruction of Israel: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble).
The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area: "The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it" (Article 11).
The Call to Jihad: "Their scheme ... is a vicious one, for the enemy hopes that the Muslims will be negligent in fulfilling their duty towards Allah, so that the Jews will keep ruling over the Muslims" (Article 13)
Hamas is the government they voted for 17 years ago, and only in Gaza.
The idea that Hamas truly speaks for all "Palestinians", or even all of Gaza is at least reductionist, and possibly comparable to the idea that all Jews (or even all Israeli Jews) are zionists.
Yes, Palestinians voted themselves a totalitarian, militaristic, genocidal government, just like the Germans did in 1933. And they are responsible for the consequences, just like the Germans were in 1945.
It "speak for" them in that it is the legal governing authority. It also happens to represent the views of the majority of Palestinians.
Either way, it is not Israel's or anybody else's responsibility to concern themselves with the legitimate government of the Palestinians, that is the sole responsibility of Palestinians.
My point about the 17 years ago is that a lot of the current population doesn't back Hamas (and most of the ones who do probably only do so because they've lost all hope), but they've been denied any opportunity to repudiate that "government" since the same oppressors are their only way of obtaining the arms needed to overthrow and try to replace the current regime.
With as young as the overall population is in Gaza, most of the current civilians couldn't have participated in the 2006 voting.
Hamas definitely doesn't speak for the majority of the Arabs in the West Bank, and by many accounts, no longer has actual backing by most of those in Gaza, either. The West (especially on the left) continues to pretend that Hamas somehow deserves a "seat at the table" (and is a "political party" rather than a militant terrorist organization who won't even drop the genocidal language from their charter as a sign of good faith), despite the fact that their primary contribution so far has been to make it futile to even attempt to have a "table" in the context they're referring to.
Joe Biden was chosen to head the legal governing authority of the USA only a little over 2 years ago, and he's pushing an agenda which upwards of 80% of those who voted for him oppose in this region; if that's the case in the world's oldest continuously operating republic (and heading into a re-election campaign, no less), what's the possible basis to assume that an autocracy which has held power entirely by a combination of force and "no other choice" for 6 times as long is actually engaging with the outside world in accordance with the express wishes of the majority of those whose oppression they've brought about?
The real test for everyone is what happens "after". After Israel has routed Hamas do we start another cycle of violence or do we look for a better solution for the Palestinians. Do we find them leaders that will care about the people and not some idea of destroying Israel?
The Palestinians need to choose their own leaders and live (or die) with the consequences. Imposing leadership will just give them an excuse to continue to claim oppression and be terrorists.
You are correct the outside cannot impose leaders, but we can find and support good leaders in the population to allow them to come to the forefront. The American people want to support the Palestinians but we cannot support terrorism. The only way to do this is to find leaders dedicated to the people and not seeking to destroy Israel.
We have precedent from Nazi Germany.
1. The Germans chose their leaders.
2. Their leaders fought a war and lost.
3. The victors imposed new leadership on the Germans.
Yes, for half a century, German politicians and high level civil servants had to be ideologically tested and approved by the allies
The Palestinians have completed Step 2 multiple times. It's time to move on to Step 3.
do we start another cycle of violence
Yes
Better solution? Deport them all to Jordan and annex Gaza and the West Bank. Problem solved.
That's the same thing the world did with millions of Germans after Germany lots the war. It is incomprehensible why the same approach shouldn't be taken with the Palestinians. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Didn't they try that with Lebanon in the 1970s-80s? When the US stationed Marines in Beiruit to keep the peace, Islamic Jihad (with the backing of Iranian Intelligence) hit the barracks with truck bombs, then Hezbollah and others proceeded to turn the "Paris of the Middle East" into a war zone without uniforms.
Iran, via Hezbollah, has a habit of destroying any regime in the Arab world that's willing to even temporarily shelter refugees, let alone accept them as actual residents or potentially citizens. Besides which, the Jordanian royals are already seen as being dangerously close to the west (especially USA, since the Queen reportedly spends more time in DC than in Amman), and doing something seen as "enabling" Israel may well spark a revolt similar to Iran in 1979.
Who is this "we" you speak of? Why is it any business of mine (or yours for that matter if you're not a Palestinian or an Israeli) whether the Palestinians and their chosen government choose to start another round of violence? How would I even start trying to find "better" leaders for them? And why do you think that would make any difference to the terrorists who don't WANT better leaders?
Well, to be fair, after the Germans lost the war, the US imposed leaders on Germany. That is, Germans could pick leaders, but only among those approved by the US. One could certainly do the same for the Palestinians.
Though my preference would still be to just end the fiction that there is a separate "Palestinian" identity.
If all goes well, "Palestinians" will be known by their CORRECT name --- Jordanians.
https://twitter.com/L0m3z/status/1714042527685410904?t=1-f0yuNtDE-q3Eb6R7UUgA&s=19
The basic asymmetry of this guy proudly and publicly expressing ruthlessly psychotic catharsis over third world commie violence, while some ordinary wagie has to bury his identity in 20 layers of opsec to tell spicy jokes online and tepidly advocate for a border wall
[Link]
First, I think use of the word anti-Semitic is inappropriate as that term generally refers to both Jews and Arabs. Hamas is definitely anti-Jewish but probably not anti-Arabs since they are Arabs. One may want to read the Hamas Charter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter) and then decide what you would do as a decision maker in Israel.
"Semitic" refers to both Jews and Arabs in the same way that "Liberal" refers to people who believe that individuals have sovereignty and that authority is derived from the consent of the governed.
That's the original meaning of the term, but it's been so widely misused for so long that most people won't interpret either of those words as representing those concepts.
Sort of like how the phrase "begs the question" (which actually refers to a logical fallacy in which a question is constructed to pre-suppose a particular answer or unproven pre-condition) has come to generally be used to mean the same thing as the phrase "raises the question". Once the new meaning gets a certain momentum, anyone using it correctly is pretty much swimming upstream.
In high school kids are drilled about watching what they post on social media as it may bite them in the hiney in the future. Consequences have actions. Many of these Harvard students are grad students. If they make dumb mistakes at 23, 24, or 25 years old, what makes us think they will eventually repent? Many won't change. Maybe not cancelling them should be the ideal path, it is an individuals choice if the choose to cancel them. There is no sympathy for placing blame on Israel because they suffered the worst terrorist attack since the Holocaust. Bud Light took a stance and it cost them dearly. Same thing will happen here.
The core error here is calling the army of the government of Gaza “terrorists”. Obviously it isn’t a completely wrong term, but “terrorist” suggests the activities of small cells of militants hidden in a society, not the organized military forces of the state. Hamas fighters in Gaza are only “terrorists” in the same sense that the Nazis of the Waffen-SS were “terrorists”.
The second major error is the implicit assumption that there is anything at all that can be done to bring peace and normalcy to Gaza short of breaking Hamas’s rule over the place. As long as Hamas is in power, it will not allow peace and normalcy in Gaza, as amply demonstrated by the last sixteen years.
Israel’s responsibility for the current state of affairs in Gaza begins and ends with its failure to use enough force to properly prosecute its 2007-to-present war with the government of Gaza to an actual conclusion, instead allowing it to continue as a running sore for years. Israel is now quite properly finally correcting that failure.
Well, Israel has made this error multiple times. Israel was founded by socialists who thought they could build a utopian society side-by-side with Arabs. There were so few Arabs living in Palestine at the founding of Israel that all these problems could have been easily avoided with small carrots and few sticks.
And it's the same in every war since: Israel's policy is based on the assumption that somehow Arabs are going to come around and coexist with them. It's not going to work.
And the US made the mistake of sticking its nose into that shitpile. The nations primarily responsible for the mess in the Middle East are the UK and Germany.
Yes.
It is unfortunate that the Israelis didn't resolve the problem at first, hoping that the Muslims would somehow see reason. They haven't
There are few choices left; scorched earth may well be the only effect alternative.
“all these problems could have been easily avoided with small carrots and few sticks”
While the founders of the Jewish State of Israel may have been idealistic socialists, I seriously doubt that any of them thought that they could live peaceably alongside the Islamic states in the region. I also seriously doubt that ANY of these problems could have avoided – easily or otherwise – with small carrots or a few sticks. The muftis issued fatwahs on day one of the new Jewish state requiring their followers to leave their homes and oppose it with violent jihad. The ones who refused to follow those instructions, choosing instead to stay peacefully in the new nation got lots and lots of carrots. The jihadis ended up losing the battle and retreated to “refugee” camps. The founders of Israel were highly cynical, experienced at guerilla warfare and very pragmatic and became militarily proficient long before they took the step of declaring the Jewish State in 1948.
The issue isn't their relationship with their neighbors, but their internal organization. Many founders were socialist idealist. (And today, the majority of Israelis are effectively non-religious.)
Well, apparently not pragmatic enough.
https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre/status/1714064957355049270?t=jcFLSG1lJlIZHc8fsGgTxg&s=19
Let’s check in on western liberal democracy
[Link]
The plight of Palestinians is self-inflicted: they chose Hamas as their government and they chose war against Israel. They are as guilty as any other nation that engaged in a violent, unprovoked attack on its neighbors; more guilty, in fact, since they deliberately targeted civilians.
Stop giving us this bullshit about a "cycle of escalation". The moral fault here is entirely with Palestinians: they keep attacking Israel and calling for its destruction.
And this will not end until the world unequivocally tells them the same thing the world told the Nazis: this is your own fault and until you are willing to live with your neighbors in peace, you will continue to suffer.
https://twitter.com/FrankDeScushin/status/1714082052948050377?t=48Hphst2fJvLtQkl0UWzmg&s=19
The people who preach against nationalism and militarism in the West now support nationalism and militarism for either Israelis or Palestinians. They recognize all distinct people want their own land & need force to defend it. They just don't want white people to recognize that.
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The French may need and want a French state; they don't want a "white" state. The concept of "white" is some bizarre American concept. Both Israelis and Palestinians are "white" anyway.
So you are a Christian writer. Really? Polls show that 95% of Palestinians are antisemitic. Lovely, eh? Israel forcibly removed Jews who were living in towns at the Gazan border. Those wonderful Palestinians would not live with a single Jew within its borders. So just as all the Arab countries ethnically cleansed their country, now Gaza was free of Jews. They were given whole towns and thriving businesses with things like state of the art greenhouses. They were free to make a country out of Gaza without a single Jew.
The first thing they did was level the towns, destroy the businesses and demolish every synagogue. The second thing they did was elect Hamas. And ever since, their stated goal was genocide, to complete what Hitler wanted. So they build tunnels, rockets and attack Israel over and over. It’s so heartwarming that you like them so much.
Just to be clear, here are the stated, official goals of the democratically elected government of the Palestinians:
Goals of Hamas: “The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine”.
On the Destruction of Israel: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (Preamble).
The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area: “The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it” (Article 11).
The Call to Jihad: “Their scheme … is a vicious one, for the enemy hopes that the Muslims will be negligent in fulfilling their duty towards Allah, so that the Jews will keep ruling over the Muslims” (Article 13)
I do not see why Israel should always be held responsible for the failures of Palestinian/Arab leadership, going back to 1947.
Supposedly, in India, impoverished parents would maim their children so they would earn more as beggars by engendering the sympathies of passers-by. The Palestinians are in some sense those children turned into a nation. And each generation of Palestinians and their other Arab supporters become these Indian parents.
OK, but here's the thing.
If you expect us to care about you, show that you care about yourself and your community. And do that by policing your own.
This is no different than when I hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from BLM/CRT or the LGBTP; no different than why I lose no sleep over Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Atlanta, New York, and every major city on the West Coast falling to crime, drug addiction, vagrancy, and impossible living conditions.
You want me to care about the plight of the blacks in America? Then start showing me blacks who are serious about and put in the effort to police their own kids and bounty hunt their absentee fathers.
You want me to care about the gays and their concerns? Then start showing me gays who tie pedos, groomers, and female-space invaders behind their truck and drag them until their face rubs off.
You want me to care about your failing city? I'll know you're serious when you oust literally everyone in power at the next election and replace them with honest, decent, conservative, capitalist Americans who value family and country.
You want me to care about "Palestine" (whatever that is)? Show me the decapitated heads of terrorists with a black, green, white, and red flag spiked through its eye socket - and then waving that flag as you escort hostages you rescued to safety.
Until then, why should I care. You certainly don't.
"...If you expect us to care about you, show that you care about yourself and your community. And do that by policing your own..."
Asking for civility and getting none.
“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Tie his hands and feet, and throw him into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in that place.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Or, more simply put, don’t expect a warm welcome from others when you aren't willing to act the part yourself. Clean yourself up, clean up your act, clean up your community - show that you're good and decent people that deserve civility and respect - and then you'll be afforded it. Until then, don't expect anyone to care about problems you make no effort to solve yourself.
Amen!
Spoken like a true leftists, who thinks that sexual orientation defines peoples' identities. I have no more connection to "pedos, groomers, and female space invaders" than you do.
In fact, if you group people by sexual orientation, given that most of them are straight and autogynephylic, they are more closely related to you than to me. I assure you, gay men don't want to cut off their wieners or grow boobs. That's some sick heterosexual male thing.
They're waving your flag pal. They've latched onto the gay rights movement like a wood tick, and I don't see the LGB doing much to shed the TP from their word salad acronym. Hence the pastels now sharing space with your rainbow, and the "MAPs" currently picking out a color of their own.
You missed my point completely, likely due to reflexive outrage based on the perceived slight of a group with whom you count yourself among (speaking of "true leftists"). It had nothing to do with sexual orientation and identity - it has to do with the fact that certain members of society who have chosen to carve out an exclusionary sub-culture for themselves does nothing to curb those who bring disrepute upon them.
If you'd like another example - one to which I belong, brought in good faith in hopes of easing whatever offense you took earlier - I'm a Conservative. I am most assuredly not a MAGA. Those fringe nutbags may get lumped in with us, but unlike groomers/gays - or Hamas/"Palestine" - I'll happily call those anti-American SOBs out and take them to task for trying to equate their unhinged insanity with an entirely rational Conservative sub-culture. Conservatives, in fact, pushed back so hard against MAGA that they created a movement (which failed utterly, but still) never before seen in American politics, that MAGA STILL blames/hates - to this day (more than Democrats, in fact) - as a whipping boy for all their gripes.
Can the LGBT say the same about the groomers and the trans and the pedos using the homosexual sub-culture for their own nefarious ends?
Can "Palestine" say they're NOT Hamas enablers?
The point is: we're known by the company we keep. If "Palestine" (or the gays, or Conservatism) wants the respect and civility afforded to decent people, maybe they ought not rub shoulders with Hamas (or groomer/trans, or MAGA).
Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. That is why Hamas represents the Palestinians and why Palestinians are responsible for it.
“LGBT…” organizations weren’t democratically elected; to the contrary, they are neo-Marxist ideologues who took over gay organizations with the help of wealthy “philanthropists”. That’s neither my fault nor my responsibility. The majority of gays/lesbians have nothing to do with this crap.
If anything, I hold traditional conservatives responsible for letting this crap happen to US society; they takeover of gay organizations is nothing compared to what the same people have done to churches, government, and education. Those old-style establishment conservatives and liberals/libertarians are a bunch of ignorant fools who have let this country go to shit and are unwilling to take responsibility.
I have no reason to believe that you are a decent person, and I couldn’t care less about your respect or your civility.
Yep. Kinda like how trans/groomers represents the LGBTPQIA2S+N?#$ - I mean, really, they'll take anyone (with two notable exceptions).
Like I said - put 'em on the flag and everything.
So then declare it publicly. Come out of the closet and denounce the LGBTP, declare them a blight on society, expose all their neo-Marxist ideology, and make special reference to how you want nothing - nothing whatsoever - to do with trans/groomer/pedos because of how they are especially screwed up.
Like I said - I'm not hearing this kind of thing from the gay community. And, yes, I am listening for it. (You'll have to put a little more effort into it than just GaG and JK Rowling.)
And you know as well as I do why that doesn't happen.
Yea whatever, there may be a gold coin at the bottom of that rabbit hole but I have no intention of following you down it.
The fact that you even bring it up pretty clearly telegraphs that you do. Otherwise you wouldn't bother.
No, not at all like that. Gaza is a nation state with a government. "LGBTQ+" organizations are radical leftist organizations with a marketing budget.
I do so frequently, as to many other gays and lesbians.
You are a ignorant, evil prick, comparable to the stupid, evil pricks on the radical left. More people need to tell you to go to hell.
"and every major city on the West Coast falling to crime, drug addiction, vagrancy, and impossible living conditions. "
Don't cry for the cities on the West Coast. Not quite all of them are completely collapsing; San Diego hasn't yet elected a DA whose first act in office was to essentially legalize most crimes (all misdemeanors anyway, including theft of up to $950 worth of non-firearms per incident). In the cities where that decline is ongoing, the state/local "leaders" who have been cultivating these conditions (or their ideological clones when they get termed out) get re-elected by double-digit margins. In some parts of the coast, only members of one party even bother to run for many offices, and the "winners" are essentially chosen by party leadership through their control over access to get names on the ballot for the one "viable" political party in the area; the biggest difference between a political rally in L.A. and one in Tehran is which language they're using to attack the tenets of the U.S. Constitution.
Oh, make no mistake - I don't.
And that's my point. If the West Coast (et al) wants me to start paying attention to their drug/crime problems - ala "shouldn't mean ignoring the plight of everyone else" in those regions - well, when the Everyone Else there starts showing that they're serious about dealing with it (or Hamas), then maybe I'll find time to give a crap.
But until they do - I see no reason NOT to ignore their self-inflicted "plight."
Even at the point where media coverage of the Tenderloin district in SF uses the word "open air drug market" whether they're writing for FNC or for vox motherboard, or anything in between, I'm not sure how many of the residents there consider drugs to be a "problem".
The first major city in the nation to ban the use of plastic straws (SF, CA) is now handing out hypodermic needles by the hundreds to homeless addicts who aren't required to return any dirty "sharps" in what started out as a one-for-one clean needle exchange. I have to wonder what the people who were ecstatic over the straw ban now think of all those used needles being dropped on the streets and likely ending up rolling or washing down storm drains which dump directly into the ocean; or do they just avoid thinking that it's happening at all?
Los Angeles has gone from an average of 3 to 5 (maybe more by now) "unhoused neighbors" dying on the streets every night and dozens of immobile RVs discharging both their "gray" and "black" water waste tanks into supposedly "protected" wetlands (where protestors went ripshit when DreamWorks floated the idea of constructing their HQ on the site), and it's hard to tell as a resident of the area whether the local and county authorities have any interest in doing anything about it beyond spending $83million (planned, before overruns) to purchase and renovate a 100 year old hotel with enough rooms to maybe shelter 0.5% of the city's homeless population.
So a Tunisian man murdered 2 Swedes in Belgium to protest the Israel-Palestine conflict in Gaza...
https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1713982734794682661?t=Oj8TibjMeOHiT7CWDcA5IQ&s=19
Meet Maher Bitar, top Biden intel official, palestinian radical, and long time friend and colleague of color revolution architect Norm Eisen
[Link]
Reason writers are not reasonable. They always seen to now be leftists.
Based on this writing, I made a good call to subscribe reason. Hamas is a direct culprit. But the way of living in Gaza in human, and has been so from the outset. Palestinians living there are humans (rather than animaly, as the were recently described by an Israely minister). Many dont know, but the only way of making money in Gaza is joining a militant group, that pays the family if the fighter dies. Hence these people join extremists. What else can they do? There is not proper education, no work, nothing. Gaza is the largest jail. Even there is not enough water to drink [has not been before the latest Hamas attack]. I suspect that Israel will destroy everything they can,, so this inhuman situation will get even worse, and people there will have even less to lose. I also add that as per UN accounts Israle already committed war crimes in Gaza in the last days. Relocating the Gaza people from there homes in a day: lets assume that Putin asked this from, say, the Odessa residents. What would the world say, including the Biden camp??? Israel has been in breach of UN decisions for decades, nothing changed. Is there any time in my life when this country will be subject to law? And Palestinians will be given a chance to live a human life?
"What else can they do?" They can accept that Israel cannot be eliminated by terrorists or by any combination of Islamic states in the region. They can stop attacking Israel and derailing every attempt to establish peace and prosperity in the region. If you blame ignorance and poverty, who is keeping the Palestinians there poor and ignorant? If you prefer to blame Israel for all your problems nothing will change, and you will remain ignorant and impoverished forever. Citing a few "war crimes" by Israelis while ignoring or excusing massive, repeated and unapologetic atrocities by your freedom fighters will not change anything, but if you're too ignorant or stupid to understand that simple point, go right ahead and continue to shoot yourselves in your collective feet!
Militant groups don't "make money" because they don't actually produce or sell anything. So, someone is actually paying these people to become terrorists. They could also be paying them to do something productive. The reason they can't do anything productive is because Palestinians chose a government (Hamas) that puts its money and resources into waging war on Israel, rather than improving the lives of its people. When people make bad choices, they suffer bad conquences.
Yes, and Hamas made it that way. It's no different from how the Germans voted the Nazis into power and then turned Germany into the larges jail. The plight of Palestinians in Gaza is no more Israel's fault than the plight of Germans in the 1940's was Poland's fault.
Bonnie:
We have a flood of terrorists into the US, with a war in Ukraine, in the Middle East and I, suspect, soon in Taiwan, with massive divisions within the US.
This all seems very well planned and coordinated.
The Palestinians overwhelmingly support and voted for Hamas. They voted for terrorism and are bearing the brunt of the consequences. I can only feel bad for those not allowed to leave.
“Palestine” is a shit show which Israel did not create. The Palestinians are mostly children ruled by a terrorist death cult. Why are they having so many children if they are so poor??? Why are they being ruled by a terrorist death cult??? Why are they so poor with all the aid being poured into the region??? Why isn’t the world asking these questions instead of blaming Israel for this mess after these savages slaughtered, tortured and raped innocent Israeli citizens???
There is no "good way" to deal with this shit show. The world needs to shut the %^&^ up and let Israel do what it needs to do. And the world needs to start demanding that those responsible for this shit show - It's not Israel - stop fueling the problem. Palestinians need to stop having so many kids. They need to start building a decent society instead of tunnels and weapons. They need to accept whatever solution Israel offers. And everybody in the region needs to stop worshipping a death cult.
There is a good way of dealing with it: end the fiction that was created when colonial powers created separate "Palestinian territories" and thereby a new, fake identity.
The people of Gaza and the West Bank are indistinguishable from those of neighboring Arab countries. That's where they should go. Any remaining claims of private land ownership (there should be few) can be settled through financial compensation if necessary.
Why would blaming Hamas mean ignoring the Palestinians' plight? After all, Hamas was the architect of that plight in Gaza. It's a jihadist death cult that gloats about the sacrifice of its own people, jails and tortures dissidents, and keeps them trapped in senseless conflict that serves its ambitions. If Hamas had not chosen to exploit Israel's withdrawal to ramp up its attacks, try to imagine how much better of Gaza's civilian population would be.
A fantastic video from Dr. Thomas Sewell on Antisemitism! It includes a section at the beginning on all of Israel’s enemies in the U.N. and a devastating speech at the end condemning The Palestinian Authority from former Hamas member Mosab Hassan Yousef! Everybody watch! (I’m looking at you, Herrs Misek, Nardz, Vernon, EdG, Death_Metal_Persian, and any other Anti-Jewish and Appeasionist riff-raff I missed!)
Thomas Sowell on the Truth behind Antisemitism
https://youtu.be/VkTHbJhvlLY?si=yRFfNYIxsOf35AHa
This is a meaningless distinction. Hamas controls Gaza and the PA is aligned with them in the so called West Bank.
This is like saying you have to distinguish between individual Russians and the Russian state. Do we? On what facts do you base such a claim? How do you think they keep waging war without a complicit populace?
As many others have already said, Hamas was elected. They didn't take Gazan Palestinians hostage and force them to vote. This is why so many Israelis have compared this to the Holocaust. One of the lessons seemingly lost to time is the complicity of the German public with Nazism.
According to the US press...
When the US kills Afghan wedding parties, it is "acceptable, unavoidable collateral civilian damage."
When Israel kills people used by Hamas as human shields around their military installations, it's a "war crime."
I have heard repeatedly, and particularly since 9/11, that every civilian Muslim killed produces a terrorist -- and yet we're supposed to endure terrorist attack after terrorist attack that specifically targets women and children -- and somehow, we're not to become terrorists?
No: it is increasingly becoming clear that these terrorists are killing innocents not because of the loss of innocent life on their own side, but because they revel in terror. We should recognize this is a cultural problem, and the very nature of it means that violence is necessary to stop it.
Israel has repeatedly offered a State for Palestine, and repeatedly it's been turned down by the Palestinians. Do they really want freedom or peace? Or is their goal the goal that they've stated repeatedly: and end to the State of Israel, and an end to all Jews?
Whenever we are told that we need to be "nice" to Palestinians, I now reflect on how, as someone put it succinctly recently, if Palestine were to put down their arms, there would no more be war ... but if Israel were to put down their arms, there would no more be Jews.
I'm tired of all this effort to make Palestine look like the victims, particularly when they have rejected Israel's offers for peace, they have rejected efforts by Israel to help them, and they continue to try to kill Israeli civilians.
Yes, Palestinian civilians are going to get killed -- but this is because of Palestinian action, and thus on the heads of Hamas, and not of Israel.
We really don't need to guess, that question has been answered by the political program of the democratically elected government of Gaza.
Israel has repeatedly offered a State for Palestine
That is false. Israel has never offered a contiguous state for Palestine—only archipelagos of island Palestinian areas, with lots of space in between in which Zionists would continue to settle.
https://cdn.britannica.com/56/74456-050-DCA551D4/Interim-Agreement-West-Bank-Gaza-Strip-B-1993.jpg
Read these:
https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/
https://www.camera.org/article/palestinians-rejected-statehood-three-times-claim-frustration-with-israel/
This does not rebuke Vernon's posts. Worthless.
Vernon claimed the Palestinians were never offered a state. The links above show that's demonstrably not true. Learn your history.
Ms. Kristian betrays her ignorance of the region about which she opines. It is not Israeli efforts of self-preservation that stoke the hatred that feeds the Islamist hate groups, but the Islamists themselves.
Islamist anti-semitic teachings and calls for Jewish mass-murder began in earnest well-before the State of Israel was even created. Ms. Kristian should familiarize herself with the origin of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1920s and the Mufti's Nazi collaboration in the early 1940s. Islamists have a long and rich history of disgusting Jew hatred propaganda, and their indoctrination of children begins in the early grades of school.
Ms. Kristian would likewise find the Hamas founding documents riddled with the same anti-semitic tropes. And most recently, we saw the effectiveness of the Islamist propaganda machine (with their media enablers) when they destroyed the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital and blamed the IDF.
Israel, like any other nation, is not perfect, but the notion that Israel is at the root of Islamist anti-semitism and terrorism is ahistorical and factually unsupportable.
Palestinians are going to end up hating Jews anyway. Rob Miesek: What’s your point in that 3 minute section of a video where one -ONE only – Jewish citizen of Israel presents a one-sided description of how some, only some , Palestinians are less privileged than Israelis.
One section in the West Bank has always, since time immemorial, been called “Judea ” – “place of the Jews.” Jews are the original inhabitants of Israel, the natives living in the land where they originated – NOT a “stolen apartheid state”. And hatred of Jews is the oldest prejudice in human history.
After the Holocaust , which came after centuries of hatred against Jews, Jews rightfully decided to stake out a tiny section of land on the planet where no one would ever again throw them out or treat them as second-class citizens. That is all they ask. Of course they have laws that discriminate against non- Jews — because they are ensuring that no one will ever again be able to harm them and throw them out of their own country.
The hatred coming from you, Rob Misek and your ilk, , is proof itself of the eternal threat Jews have always and will always experience. Your very words simply prove that Jews can trust no one with their own safety because the ancient Jew-hatred that you have absorbed will rear its sick malignant head forever. Leave them alone. They are not harming you or yours. And you are simply an object of pity.
This is the best-reasoned article I have seen on how we ought to respond to the current blood-letting.
It really isn't. If you truly think targeting Hamas is Palestinian plight, then you're twisted beyond belief.
Towards the argument for or against “concentration camp”, there’s always this (I feel the term “township” is more accurate):
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” (Benjamin Netanyahu, statement at a March 2019 meeting of his Likud Party’s Knesset members, Haaretz, October 9, 2023).
So, suck it up, zionists.
There’s nothing resembling a “concentration camp” in using war strategies in hopes of making Hamas surrender. Considering those in the West Bank are less threatening than the Gazans, it wouldn’t be the worst thing to do for protection purposes.
Is it possible to make your antisemitism more obvious?
ovcjjp
The Palestinians repeatedly choose a government in elections that opts to use their limited resources to kill neighbors they hate instead of improving the lives of Palestinians. That defines a group of people whose "plight" should be ignored.
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Why do democrats march in the streets demanding jews be placed in the gas chamber?