Third Party Candidates Shouldn't Get Their Hopes Up
If Joe Manchin or Larry Hogan thinks he’ll be elected on a No Labels ticket, he’ll be sorely disappointed.

Both major parties seem to be embracing unpopular presidential candidates. Republican frontrunner Donald Trump is facing four looming criminal trials while a slew of more traditionally qualified candidates fail to gain traction. And the Democrats seem set to offer America's oldest-ever president running for a second term despite anemic poll numbers. This time a third party should be able to gain real traction, right?
Enter No Labels, a would-be centrist third party. The group's organization and funding are murky, creatively structured to avoid campaign finance disclosures. But the effort seems to be well-funded, and it has attracted a fair number of (mostly former) governors, senators, and other notable politicians. Many fear No Labels will be a spoiler tipping the race to Trump, intentionally or not.
Former senator and Democratic vice-presidential nominee Joe Lieberman has acted as a spokesman for No Labels; the organization's plan is to qualify for ballot access across the country and nominate a centrist ticket. West Virginia's Sen. Joe Manchin (a nominal Democrat who drives his party crazy) has appeared at No Labels events and has been teasing the possibility he might run. Former Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan has also refused to rule it out. Other possibilities bandied about include Maine's Sen. Susan Collins and former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman (those last three decidedly non-MAGA Republicans).
Over the years, I've interacted with more than a dozen elected officeholders considering a third-party campaign. This includes seven governors, five members of Congress, and a smattering of others who've held lower offices. I was a campaign staffer on the 2016 Libertarian presidential campaign of Gary Johnson, former governor of New Mexico, and his running mate Bill Weld, former governor of Massachusetts. For others, I merely participated in conversations and wrote strategy memos outlining the pros and cons of their prospective candidacies. Most ultimately decided against running.
Some, like Johnson and Weld, were looking at the Libertarian Party, while others considered independent bids or looked at the relative merits of running with a third party versus running in a major-party primary. The world of minor parties and ballot access petitioners is a relatively small one. Word gets around whenever somebody notable gives it a serious look.
In some instances, I was hoping a candidate would run. For others, I was more ambivalent. But I always wanted the potential candidate to know what they were getting into. Those closest to and most eager for a candidate to run can often be persuasive in their enthusiasm. Manchin, Hogan, and anybody else seriously considering a No Labels candidacy need to hear the full truth about what they'd be signing up for.
An Unpromising History
Since World War II, there have been 14 third-party or independent presidential bids by governors, senators, congressmen, and in one case a former vice president. (There have been even more if you count the campaigns that ended before November, or the times a politician let a party put his name on the ballot but did not actively campaign.) Of those, seven failed to garner even 1 percent of the vote. Only one broke double digits. Two won states, but both were segregationists appealing to the Jim Crow South, a dynamic thankfully relegated to the ash heap of history. Taken together, the average result of these campaigns is just 2.33 percent. Some degree of notability is certainly necessary to run a serious campaign for the most powerful office in the world. Necessary, but far from sufficient.
Third parties can benefit from running a credible ex-officeholder instead of an unknown party activist. A governor or senator can attract more support, more attention, and ultimately more votes. But the difference is likely to be just a handful of percentage points, not a real shot at winning.
The plausible best-case scenario for any No Labels candidate with significant experience in high office is not that they make the debates, or win any states, or deadlock the Electoral College, much less actually become president. A realistic best case would be 5 percent of the popular vote. The median likeliest outcome is 2 or 3 percent. Less than 1 percent is a distinct possibility.
Ample resources and media attention might get you out of less-than-1-percent territory, but it won't move the needle much beyond that. If you aren't comfortable with a vote percentage in the low single digits, possibly less than a full percent, you shouldn't run for president as a third party candidate.
The Polling Mirage
No Labels insists they will only put forward a candidate if they see a feasible path to victory. But there is no path to victory. The arguments to the contrary are familiar, and they don't withstand scrutiny.
For some time, Gallup has been asking voters if they would like to see a third major party. Affirmative answers routinely exceed 60 percent. No Labels has pointed to similar results when voters are asked if they'd consider a generic, unnamed centrist candidate in 2024. Others point to the fact that nearly half of Americans say they are independents, far surpassing those who self-identify as either Republicans or Democrats.
Add this to the prospect of two major-party nominees with historically low approval ratings, and a historic breakout for third parties might seem uniquely possible. But these poll numbers are a mirage.
For one thing, you don't get to put a generic third party or an unnamed centrist on the ballot. Ask about an actual, real person and the numbers fall off fast. Especially if you ask directly if they'd support the candidate, not merely "consider" supporting them.
It's easy to project frustrations with Biden and Trump, Democrats and Republicans, onto a blank slate. But specific candidates have actual policy positions and public records, including their prior party affiliation, and nobody pleases everybody. There's probably not much overlap, for example, between possible No Labels voters and leftists open to voting for Cornel West.
So when you ask voters if they'd back Manchin in a three-man race, you don't get a lopsided supermajority for the centrist revolution. You get a number more like 16 percent, as one recent Monmouth University poll found.
So You're Telling Me There's a Chance?
Polling in the mid-teens may seem like a reasonable starting point. It's certainly much better than the vast majority of third party candidates have actually done. But history suggests that 16 percent is not what a candidate like Manchin or Hogan would actually get. A quarter of that is far more likely.
Gary Johnson's 2016 campaign shows the general pattern. At his peak, he was polling into the low teens as he similarly made headway against two historically unpopular opponents, Trump and Hilary Clinton. In the end, the vast majority of those voters "went home" to their preferred major party and the Johnson/Weld ticket wound up with 3.2 percent.
While Hogan or Manchin might think he is simply a better politician than Johnson and Weld were, the same trend holds true for other notable third-party presidential candidates: They almost always poll better than they actually perform on election day. Similar trends can be seen with such candidates as Illinois Rep. John Anderson in 1980 and celebrity activist Ralph Nader in 2000.
Minor-party candidates often complain about being excluded from the polls, but pollsters aren't just being mean. They know the results won't be accurate as a predictor of actual votes cast. Asking about a candidate in a poll boosts them beyond what actually happens in the voting booth, where citizens will usually find a much longer list of obscure names. This is especially true when other relatively high-profile independent candidates, such as Cornel West and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., will be vying for the small number of habitual third-party voters.
There's also a selection bias that's hard to weed out. People who answer polls are at least somewhat more interested in politics than the average voter, which means they're more likely to support a lesser-known candidate.
Pointing to the number of supposed independents is similarly unhelpful. The vast majority of them still "lean" Republican or Democratic and will say so when pressed. The actual number of uncommitted swing voters is 10 percent or less, and no candidate can appeal to all of them.
These genuinely independent voters are not necessarily middle-of-the-road moderates. They often hold an eclectic basket of views that don't easily fit onto the usual left-right spectrum. Whichever mutually exclusive subset of them you appeal to, you're already down into the single digits, and that's before fears of a wasted vote and a flood of anti-spoiler messaging whittle you down further.
Lincoln, the 12th Amendment, and Other Red Herrings
Sometimes those with inflated expectations for a third-party win call on historical precedent: What about Abraham Lincoln's victory and the rise of the Republican Party—wasn't that an example of a third party winning the presidency?
Even setting aside the many ways the political system was radically different then, calling Lincoln's GOP a "third party" misunderstands the situation at the time. The Republicans simply were not the equivalent of a third party in 1860. They had been the runners-up in the previous presidential election. They had already won an effective majority in the House in 1858, and they had control of numerous state legislatures and governorships. They were the minority party in the Senate. And the Democrats' previous major-party rival—the Whigs—had already collapsed and disbanded; they ran no one for president in 1860.
No alternative party today is anywhere close to that position. No speaker of the House is leading a No Labels majority. The runner-up in 2020 was Donald Trump, not Joe Manchin. Nobody has ever been elected as a No Labels nominee to any office. And both the Republican and Democratic parties are alive and kicking.
Another alleged path to victory for third parties relies on the 12th Amendment's requirement that candidates must secure an absolute majority in the Electoral College to win. Otherwise, the task of picking the president goes to the House of Representatives in what is known as a contingent election. That hasn't happened since 1824.
Over the years, many third-party candidates have seen this as a more feasible goal than winning by normal means. But on closer inspection, a contingent election is both unlikely and undesirable.
Even with the House voting by state delegations, an unusual quirk to the 12th Amendment's rules, there is little reason to think a distant third-place candidate could emerge the victor in a House where the ticket has few if any supporters. How many Republicans and Democrats would feasibly defect to install a candidate neither party had nominated and who had run in third place?
The best that can be hoped for is to deadlock the House, where an absolute majority of 26 state delegation votes are needed to win. But if the House can't make a decision by January 20, then the Senate's choice of vice president will take office—and the Senate is allowed to choose only from the top two VP candidates in the Electoral College, with an absolute majority of 51 votes needed. If both houses fail to choose somebody, then the speaker of the House becomes acting president. If the House has successfully chosen a speaker.
If your goal is to break up the two-party system, it's hard to see how you do that by making a Republican House speaker or Democratic vice president commander-in-chief. And those are both much likelier outcomes than any third-place candidate somehow coming out on top under the 12th Amendment.
Contingent elections are also deeply undesirable on the merits. They are often treated as a fun bit of constitutional trivia, memorably portrayed on the sitcom Veep, but the reality is much more grim. The procedure hasn't been tested in two centuries. There are a number of ambiguities in the constitutional text, and the House has no established rules for how it would work.
If you thought the disastrous aftermath of the 2020 election was bad, it would pale in comparison to the constitutional crisis and political chaos resulting from a contingent election. It's worth seriously questioning why anybody should want to see it happen. It could get very ugly. The House could deadlock over ambiguities in the constitutional rules, the Senate could come down to an argument about the vice president breaking a tie, and the whole mess could easily drag on past January 20—at which point we'd open an entirely new can of worms with possible disputes over the Presidential Succession Act. Assuming we got through the thicket of procedural uncertainty, the backlash against any result for a contingent election would be intense. This is what happened in 1824, when Andrew Jackson was rejected by the House but bounced back with a commanding victory four years later, driven in no small part by the perception of a "corrupt bargain" in Congress to lock him out of the presidency.
A third candidate triggering a contingent election is mathematically unlikely anyway. Playing with hypothetical maps, it's easy to draw a scenario where a single state goes to a third candidate, thus denying anybody a winning majority. But that's not what actually happens when there's a significant three-way split in the popular vote. The leading candidate, perhaps with only 40-something percent, wins many more states on pluralities than is usual in a two-way race. The effect is not a deadlock but an Electoral College landslide.
It can also be tempting to think a candidate who has previously won elections in a state will be a kind of favorite son, winning his home state and at least having a shot at throwing the election to the House. Here the historical record is similarly unpromising.
Johnson, a popular two-term ex-governor, got just 9.3 percent in New Mexico in 2016—better than he did elsewhere, but not nearly enough to win the state. In Massachusetts, his similarly positioned running mate boosted the result above the natural average by only about a point. In 1980, Illinois Rep. John Anderson and former Wisconsin Gov. Patrick Lucey likewise saw negligible boosts in their respective home states. In 2008, when the Greens picked former Rep. Cynthia McKinney, she wasn't even able to get on the ballot in her home state of Georgia. She won just 0.12 percent nationwide.
The home-state advantage is modest and has declined sharply in an era of highly nationalized politics. It might provide a key boost for a major-party nominee in a close race, enough for a crucial point or two. But an extra point or two doesn't do much good when you're starting from zero.
Two-Party Blues
None of this is to say that third-party candidates shouldn't run. They're part of the ecosystem of American politics, and some have made a genuine impact. And haters of the two-party system are entirely right. It is a terrible system.
The usual anti-spoiler arguments will never be convincing to those who sincerely oppose the two-party system. Most of the attacks on No Labels have put this complaint front and center, alleging that a substantial third-party bid would pull more votes from Biden than Trump. That's debatable. Democrats were wrong to think Johnson hurt Clinton more than Trump in 2016, for example. But it's also beside the point.
Whatever the relative merits of the Republican and Democratic nominees in any given election, anybody considering running against both has already decided they're both unacceptable. Hectoring third-party candidates and supporters for harming either major-party candidate only causes them to dig in their heels. It comes across as whiny, entitled, and undemocratic, and third-party voters are not wrong to perceive it that way.
But third-party presidential campaigns are not the way to smash the duopoly. Even when third-party candidates have won lower offices, as with Gov. Jesse Ventura in Minnesota and Gov. Wally Hickel in Alaska, those wins don't do long-term damage to the major parties. Republicans and Democrats continue to dominate, winning almost every other election on the ballot. The two-party system doesn't collapse even in the aftermath of the occasional fluke.
The most successful alternative parties are ones that don't run their own presidential candidates at all. The Progressive Party in Vermont boasts a number of legislators and even statewide officeholders. The Working Families Party is a real force in New York.
But in these cases, the parties are able to take advantage of laws allowing so-called fusion nominations, where third parties can selectively cross-endorse (or not) major party nominees. The selective use of fusion allows smaller parties to grow and exert influence without being marginalized as spoilers. For example, New York's Conservatives provided the winning margins for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and George Pataki in 1994. Because fusion allows parties to grow and be relevant, Conservatives were also able to stand on their own to elect James L. Buckley to the Senate, defeating both a Republican and a Democrat.
Fusion offers one way forward to a more representative multi-party system. Proportional representation, increasingly a focus for many electoral reformers, offers another route. Both fusion and proportional representation offer a way around Duverger's law, the inherent futility of alternative parties in a first-past-the-post electoral system. And though it won't necessarily mean a huge boost to third parties, the spread of ranked-choice voting offers a chance to do away with the "spoiler" effect.
With such reforms, votes no longer have to be wasted, spoilers aren't seen as a problem, and everyone can be more accurately represented. We don't have to be locked into two parties tearing the country apart with alternating bouts of minority rule. We might move beyond what George Washington presciently called "the alternate domination of one faction over another."
But running for president with wildly unrealistic expectations won't help. It will just leave people bitterly disappointed.
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I joined the LP for political self-defense Not winning elections regularly
Can it do one without the other ? I do not know
The Prohibition Party and People's Party averaged 2% of the vote. The one got the Harrison Act, National Prohibition, Crash and Depression, DEA and Republican Reefer Madness enacted. The other got Communist Manifesto Plank 2 installed in the Constitution as 16A, and weaponized the IRS and similar State looters. Together those 2% of spoiler votes empowered altruist fanaticism to make production and trade into crimes only graft and bribery can temporarily excuse. (http://bit.ly/3wpLA1N)
Fuck off Hank. Or do I need to call your hospice and have them put you in restraints?
I thought the nurses took his laptop away from him cause it “Angries up the blood”.
Maybe he stole someone's cell phone.
He’s certainly gone through a cognitive decline over the last few years. Kind of like a less antagonistic Michael Hihn before he croaked.
Rest in peace sweet Hihnsane Prince, may angels speed thee to eternal rest.
Yeah the 16th Amendment was indeed Marxist. All it did was allow an income tax to not be apportioned by state population; an income tax could have been enacted in 1789. It overturned a Supreme Court decision; one of the rare times that has happened. All three major Presidential candiates supported the ratification of the 16th Amendment and the ratification was completed before Taft left office. (The fringe element that says it was never ratified is like the fools who think Trump won the 2020 election.)
And when the income tax was finally enacted by statute, the same law contained a huge reduction in tariffs rates, dropping them to the lowest level since the 1850s. That benefittted society although it inconvenienced a lot of corporate welfare recipients.
What would democracy look like if instead of forced to choose one of several candidates, we voted Yes/No for each one?
It would end up like many of the judicial votes in places like Arizona where half the people put yes on everyone and half put no on everyone.
Sounds like dating apps to me.
Why stop at No Labels? There are more third party candidates that could run like RFK Jr, Liz Cheney, Cornel West, even the Down-Low Bro Tim Scott that all have been shunned by the two major parties.
former Rep. Cynthia McKinney, she wasn't even able to get on the ballot in her home state of Georgia. She won just 0.12 percent nationwide.
Still too many votes for her.
"even the Down-Low Bro Tim Scott"
Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2 1 hour ago
Tim Scott 400-1 Whuffo Bro? Whuffo is you in dis race fo, bro?
‘Down Low Bro’? More racism from the pedophile Sorosite.
McKinney opposed the reenslavement of women sought by the Prohibition and Republican parties.
"reenslavement of women"
What the fuck does this even mean?
When were women as an entire group "enslaved" in the West? Are you trying to claim that traditional gender roles were slavery?
I doubt he knows. His brains are shit, just like Biden.
When the media counts votes, they always add them up to reach 100%. As if everyone voted.
I'd like to see them show the numbers as percentage of eligible voters. So when 2/3 of them vote, show the winner as getting 34%, not 52%.
That might inspire those of us who refuse to vote against one of the two evils to vote for a third party.
You give them a third choice, they'll despair at their lack of ability to vote against all 3. And so on.
Dissident observers from their perspective always seem to imagine it's The Man that they and the silent majority oppose, as represented by the dominant parties. They're wrong. Take any random sample hostage, force them to form their own political campaign, and, other than being against hostage-taking, dissident voters exposed to the product will object every bit as much to whatever they arrive at as they do to the Democrats and Republicans. The existing major parties do not have the power of some evil machine driving them to perfect their evil and make it eviler.
Remember that experiment ~30 years ago by, I don't know, some organization associated (by name or something) with Vermont or New Hampshire — Concord Group? — to get volunteers together as a mock Congress to try to balance the US budget? The result was that even with that object in mind, the best they could do was to pare it down slightly, resulting in its still being grossly out of balance.
Cutting the budget is indeed a conundrum. Since all the government does is pay people and shuffle money around, cutting spending means someone loses their job, contract or benefit.
There is a solution. Freeze the budget and let inflation do the rest. In 5-10 the budget will be balanced. Of course lots of people will be pissed for not getting raises, but that's better than nothing at all.
And I'd vote for someone who I thought could manage it.
And what the experiment revealed is that there's great sentiment against cuts even when nobody has a personal or "real" stake in the matter. The people in that committee had no actual effect on government programs, and didn't even produce a report of recommendations.
More starkly, there was reported here a few years ago (Bailey?) an experiment involving small but non-trivial disbursements according to some contest, and neutral observers when given the opportunity preferred to shuffle the money around rather than leave the disbursements according to merit. It was a dismal finding: that people just wanted to affect outcomes, no matter how. In other words, redistribution by ANY scheme is politically favored! Rich to poor, poor to rich, no matter.
Be careful sarc. Not only are you starting to learn, but you're now supporting proposals of the GOP from Paul Ryan, to Massie, to others.
Baseline budgeting needs to be ended. Automatic 3% budget increases from the prior year, counting even one time or short term spending additiona. Reid/Nancy set the baseline to 2009 with TARP, Joe has set the baseline to include Covid spending in his budget. Only one side supports budget freezing.
If you read my words instead of listening to the voices in your head you’d know I’ve been saying these same things for years. I didn’t learn them from you or your GOP politicians.
Please stop replying to my posts. I’m trying to have civil conversations here.
All you do is shit them up.
You’re incapable of civility. And you still pussed out after threatening me you ducking alcoholic little punk. And that’s what you are, not ‘civil’. Just a weak little pussy that cries foul when anyone hits back after your drunken attacks.
No you haven’t been.
90% of your posts are deflecting to attack the GOP to defend Joe and Dems.
Again. Go into any Biden tagged thread and look at your shit posting.
No, he really has been.
Probably the best we can do. If Trump had frozen spending in 2018 (and gotten reelected and continued to freeze it), the budget would be balanced right now, 5 years later.
I disagree. I think many people don't vote because they're sick of the duopoly. If there was a viable third choice they might be inclined to show up. Remember "Let me finish! Let me finish!" back in '92?
No. Who said, "Let me finish!"? nd what makes you think those same people wouldn't instantly be sick of the triopoly? Or quadropoly?
Perot.
That’s true. He turned out to have significant coat-tails down-ticket, although he didn’t have a ticket: Votes for Libertarians and other independent or 3rd-party candidates were up several-fold that year in districts where Perot scored well. I guess there’s always the occasional exception who can rally the dissidents.
I don't vote but I don't consider myself a dissident, and I certainly don't fit the profile you keep describing.
You’re a leftist, just like her. A drunken, cowardly one at that.
I don't vote because if I do I'm voting against someone. I would vote if there was someone I could vote for.
Perot's challenge got Clinton and the other looter to at least lie once about cutting spending. The LP has accomplished that for over 50 years.
The LP didn’t accomplish shit. Because none of them got elected to national office, with a very few exceptions. Do you know why they never accomplished any Hank?
Because the LP was infested with leftist trash, like you. Now fuck off.
what makes you think those same people wouldn’t instantly be sick of the triopoly? Or quadropoly?
Because competition. Right now there isn't any. The two major parties put on a show like pro wrestlers and buy each other beers afterwards. They've got divide and conquer down to a science. They shuffle issues back and forth like playing cards to insure the divide is close to 50/50, discouraging anyone to vote for another party.
The two major parties put on a show like pro wrestlers and buy each other beers afterwards.
That may have been true in the days of Tip O'Neill, but I don't think it's been the case since Newt Gingtich and his Contract On America (sic). And it's categorically untrue now.,
That's true. This is a historically hard time for Americans to complain with justification, not a dime's worth of difference. You have to go far out of your way now to find a stance that the opposite party won't reject, just out of spite. They're goring oxen left and right. That dime is now on the ground so they can turn on it, as with Covid vaccine.
Then how do they keep the divide so close to 50/50? Luck?
I would think that if they weren’t looking at polls and trading stances on issues, one would come out ahead creating an opportunity for competition for second place.
The fact that elections are so close makes me believe there’s backroom deals to keep them that way.
That’s my conspiracy theory anyway.
No, competition. You see the other side sucking off your voters, you look for how you can suck them back in, or others to compensate.
Oh, so close but no cigar! Seeing conspiracy where the simpler explanation is competition. It goes on in all spheres of business, why not politics? Lemme guess: You're an antitrust lawyer in the current administration?
I wish I made lawyer money.
Competition from the LP got Roe enacted and knocked over most state laws making a felony of hemp leaves. THAT is law-canging spoiler vote clout.
I think Roberta is right. That's why we have a two party system and probably always will. When you need 50% +1 to win, parties will always align themselves to get roughly half of the vote. If a third party emerges that can actually win, it becomes one of the two parties. I can imagine scenarios where 3 or more parties come to be relevant, but I don't think it is likely to happen.
The GOPe still plays the scripted opponent of the DNC who always lose. See continuing resolution vote just a month back.
That may have been true in the days of Tip O’Neill, but I don’t think it’s been the case since Newt Gingtich and his Contract On America (sic). And it’s categorically untrue now.,
Yeah, that’s a load of crap. It’s well documented that Gingrich and Clinton were doing back-room discussions on policy issues even when they were tearing each other apart in public. A bunch of legislation was passed that was downright conservative by post-World War II standards. Clinton’s impeachment drama ironically ended a lot of that cooperation.
The sides mostly hardened up after the 2000 election. Northeastern Republicans became Dem-voting independents or joined the Dem party entirely, Pelosi jerked the House Dems completely to the left, the Blue Dogs were largely a media construct who still voted almost entirely along party lines, and the Tea Partiers became Trump supporters after the GOPe told them to shut up and color.
The LP ran not just a viable third choice in 2016, but a better qualified (2-term popular governor) and less corrupt option (Gary Johnson). He got 3% of the vote.
The voters are like the elephant that was trained as a small calf that it couldn't pull the stake out of the ground, so when they grow up and weigh 4 tons they don't even try.
Johnson should have done better. A big part of the problem is that he ran a snotty campaign and some policy positions that weren’t very libertarian. Plus he had a few gaffes that didn’t help. Aleppo comes to mind.
Johnson was viewed by most normal voters as something of a loon, and getting caught looking ignorant on a foreign policy question did not help.
I did (reluctantly) vote for Johnson in the election, but talking to less politically nerdy friends and family gave a perspective that most Libertarians are in denial about.
The article is typical anti-conceptual rooting for a looter Kleptocracy. The Tea Party, Wallace Klan, Perotistas, Alabama Mises and Cratered Cato i-useful incessantly recite the same tripe. Of COURSE it blanks out law-changing spoiler votes and pretends everyone elibible to vote is dumb enough to endorse either banning electricity for Marx and Mao or banning birth control for TR, Hitler and Jesus. Observe that NO fake party offer to repeal anything. Each serves only to help looters elide 50 years of libertarian repeal of coercion via leveraged law-changing spoiler votes that make looters LOSE.
Do you know that you same some slightly different version of the same arcane bullshit in one of your posts? The same slang you invented too. Your comments are unoriginal, and fairly deranged.
Did you know that?
Trump: 33%
Biden: 742%
This is what I've long noted but that many fail to appreciate. People who trot out a Nolan chart and think those who consider only a single spectrum are narrow minded are arrogant themselves to think only in terms of two axes. There are myriad dimensions, endless ways of slicing the pie. Candidates, parties, and movements can appeal to voters on bases most of you wouldn't even think of as ideologic, and many might leave you scratching your head, wondering, how is that even political? Not, mind you, how would/should government be involved in such a thing, but more like, how could anyone even conceive of this as an important matter of public controversy?
Abortion doesn't Nolan. There was a poster here whose handle was SIV (for Single Issue Voter) who prioritized abortion over everything else. Other "libertarians" here do the same.
Yes, that's a ready example. Same with vaccinations.
At least the 40 years of Times-Mirror typologies don't start with such obvious assumptions of axes.
Forcing women into involuntary servitude is slavery, whether to produce cotton or additional slaves. Remember Ayn Rand?
That would only mean something if the woman was raped. Everyone knows what sex does, if she gets pregnant from consensual sex it’s cause she willingly chose to participate in an act that’s purpose is pregnancy. Next time use fingers and a dildo to get off.
In the progressive mind, any personal responsibility for consequences is oppression and slavery.
Extreme example: a modern wokester living on a deserted island would refuse to make any effort to feed itself, as a show of resistance.
Especially if acting responsible means having discipline over one's hedonistic impulses.
"an act that’s purpose is pregnancy."
Do you intend to impregnate your partner every time you have sex? If so, how far do you take this? Holes in your rubbers? Lying about your fertility? Rape?
What about killing babies? At least they're not slaves?
Plus, there are always some tendencies that are so outré that people don't consider them to be on any spectrum — except possibly the autism "spectrum". Just think about 60 years ago when controversy over what to do about narcotic "addicts", albeit lower key as a political matter at all, was all about one's relative propensity to favor criminal sanctions vs. medicalization. The idea that occurs to us so naturally of leaving them alone, albeit still distinctly a minority viewpoint today, would've been viewed as a joke then.
Well, today I can assure you there are plenty of opinions that libertarians, authoritarians, and moderates would all agree are completely outré. You want to bring libertarians, authoritarians, and centrists together? Just put up Scientology as an alternative.
I think authoritarians have a home in the GOP, and totalitarians have a home in the Democratic Party.
People who just want to be left alone are left in the dust.
Only if kept in ignorance about the law-changing power of spoiler votes cast on permanent record to endorse freedom. The icing on that cake is watching soft-machine looters go head-over-handlebars the way Hillary's derelict party did in 2016.
Nolan chart is a lot better than the right/left paradigm. Though you're right in that it doesn't take things like morality into account.
Morality? It doesn't take things like molality into account! People judge things on more dimensions than you imagine.
Is that a chemistry joke?
Just a retort.
Seems your point is that it's too complicated so don't bother.
The Nolan chart does not take prioritization into account. In general the difference between left and right libertarians is that they might favor the same policies, but when it comes time to choose in reality, their differences in priority change. Group A would rather have drug legalization and Group B would rather have School Choice. The Nolan Chart (and most other polls) do not reflect the fact that people must make tradeoffs.
I imagine you could put most peoples' car preferences on an analog of a Nolan Chart, as well. People want better storage, good mileage, enough power, etc etc. And yet when they have to start making tradeoffs, we see that people have massive preference differences in reality.
The difference between the left and the right is what they want to have controlled, and who they want to control it.
Whereas libertarians want to keep coercion to a minimum.
Does coercion include censorship, masking, vaccines, etc? Because that would look bad on you if it did.
Do you imagine this addressed Overt’s point whatsoever?
Morality is a code of values to guide choices and actions. The Kleptocracy moral code values coercion at gunpoint because hatred points them in that direction. To to instead value life implies NOT coercing at gunpoint to the extent good examples obviate the need.
Roberta speaks well in defense of folks unable to choose between freedom and coercion, and those with no mind to make up. Indeed, tapping into mental illness and confusion has made the Kleptocracy the Leviathan that rules by murder. Mental illness is the prime feeder of the appetite for opiates and their chemical imitations. The fact is not pretty, and ever since Dr De Ropp disclosed it plainly while debunking 1924 German propaganda endorsing heroin as non-habit-forming, both factions have struggled to evade it.
No Labels?
No Party.
No Candidates.
No Platform.
No Chance.
It’s actually just ‘democrat lite’.
Just what America needs.
One need only look overseas at coalition governments to see that our system is better. Spoiler: their states never shrink, nor do they have the potential to do so. That is because the parties aren't adversarial at the level of "government should do X".
The Tories, no matter what you might think of them, aren't going to roll back the NHS, and neither will Labour.
Nor will The People by any other means. Once you install something like the NHS, it's cemented in forever, no matter how objectively bad a deal it is.
Just like Social Security.
Right. Which is why it's foolish to try to trim it significantly. Just take the loss, effectively forever.
Torrid won’t roll back NHS, and Republicans won’t cut Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. They’ll hem and haw but turning off the tap is political suicide.
It’s a ratchet that only goes way. Once people are used to the free stuff they’re getting, you can’t park back on the free stuff.
Exactly. That's why libertarians need to focus on things they can achieve without chasing genies that can't be put back in the bottle.
GOPe won't cut those services. They are all afraid of the media. Many others in the GOP have called for reform to those services.
Our state doesn't shrink either.
It's a bit presumptuous to start right away with aiming for the Presidency, then saying, "oh, well, that didn't work, back to the Dems and Reps."
Try lower offices first, if you win there, work your way up to the Presidency.
That’s been my complaint about libertarian party strategy. They have seemed interested, of late, in grabbing protest votes and not being interested in getting victory for their policies.
They like flocking to races against high media profile candidates just to get their name out there, it they’re not getting candidates to run for state legislatures, county commissions, etc. Their goal should be to state mobilizing in a few states and working to get a libertarian candidate into every race on the ballot. Run against the Democrats and Republicans who might be otherwise unopposed. Don’t just symbolically run against Marjorie Taylor-Greene or Jim Jordan, run against every legislator in a whole state. Get candidates running even in the deep blue areas.
If you can’t mobilize enough libertarians to get candidates on ballots in a single state, how are you going to be taken seriously as a presidential candidate?
Rich Cooper advocated the strategy of high profile campaigns like for governor, because he didn't believe we could win lower offices but that higher ones would give us a chance for publicity of our ideas. This betrays contempt for voters, and says we're just using them in insincere runs for office, and insincere operation of a political party.
As the song by Art (the only rock band) went 40 years ago, you think the boat people have it bad? Man, they want to live! Similarly at least the major candidates sincerely want to get elected.
"That’s been my complaint about libertarian party strategy. They have seemed interested, of late, in grabbing protest votes and not being interested in getting victory for their policies."
That's the problem with a "libertarian party". It becomes about the party rather than the philosophy.
Adherents to other philosophies try to coopt existing power structures to push their ideals, rather than start new ones. The libertarians should focus on developing libertarian policies within the Republicans and Democrats rather than trying to run a different party.
The libertarians should focus on developing libertarian policies within the Republicans and Democrats rather than trying to run a different party.
How does that work? Libertarian policies mostly revolve around leaving people alone. Neither Republican politicians nor Democrat politicians want to leave people alone. Quite the opposite. The whole point of power is to wield it.
That's the libertarian conundrum. How do you get people who aren't interested in power into positions of power?
Same way that socialists successfully convinced the heads of banks and multinational corporations that social marxism, DEI and corporatist policies were the path to pursue. By persuasion, and for libertarians it's the only option.
I guess. Seems like a bit of a lost cause.
Personally I think we’re hardwired for socialism, because in tribal sized groups it works. However it doesn’t scale well beyond Dunbar’s number.
Whereas libertarianism is often confused with being a hermit. That whole “Libertarians say every man is an island” trope is nonsense. It’s difficult to persuade people that society can cooperate without someone holding a gun to our heads. I don’t know why.
"Personally I think we’re hardwired for socialism"
You're not wrong. It's a instinctual regression to childhood. When things get tough let mommy and daddy handle it.
I don't think so. Archeologists find skeletons of people who managed to live long after they could take care of themselves, meaning others took care of them. That's not regressing to childhood. It's voluntary socialism in a tribal setting.
I’m talking about people taking care of each other because they want to. In smaller groups people are more willing because they know each other and shirkers can easily be identified.
Once groups get so large that people don’t know each other, they’re less likely to voluntarily help others. That’s when socialism comes at the point of a gun.
Both Republicans and Democrats want to leave some people alone for some purposes, so build on that.
The LP runs lots of down-ballot candidates. Or at least, Libertarians run themselves in down-ballot races. Some even win, never to be heard from again. The Libertarian label is a loser above the town council level. A serious libertarian candidate is better off trying to run as an Independent, or a Republican.
You are right one the money here. In the last two Congresses, the House margin has been only 4 or 5 seats. If Libertarians or No Labels controlled those seats they would have enormous power. Control of two or three Senate seats could also give a great deal of power.
I think it has to be a mult-generational bottom-up strategy. Work on states or even individual counties, and build from there. It is utterly unglamorous and takes a very long time, so is unappealing for 3rd party romantics.
I don't think it needs to be multi-generational. Unless the goal is something ludicrous lofty and global. And in that case, it's probably faster to build an army.
Well, the fascists have been working to destroy America since the sixties, and are just beginning to see the fruits of their labors.
Again, emphasis on creeping Fabian socialism and empowering brainwashed populist ideologues. Pay no attention to the gushing forth of spoiler votes demanding repeal of bad laws that jerked control of 127 electoral votes out of the greasy palms of looter soft machines the Gary Johnson campaign accomplished in 2016. Observe that SUDDENLY the Dems acted to gain and keep the votes of women--votes Comstock Hitlerites seek as a means to enslave females. That sudden sharp pain got their attention--they reacted and won. That's clout that got results!
The LP has had a multi-generational effort. My parents voted LP back in 1980. It would seem like 5 decades of futility, but look at the once-fringe platform planks that have been widely adopted, like marijuana legalization and home schooling and concealed carry.
Taxes and spending seem like a lost cause, but voters are open to more freedom in some areas.
True, fringe planks have come to pass...but not because they were LP planks. You're seeing social changes, riding the wave, and taking credit for moving the ocean.
And how did marijuana legalization come about? By an old generation's dying off. Concealed carry and home schooling in reaction to severe deficiencies in the status quo. Ask most people who favored those changes, they'd willingly trade them for better government schools and less crime. So change happens for lots of reasons — frequently bad!
Taxes and spending are lost causes only as concern "entitlements". Most spending, most people don't have a stake in.
I thought this whole rag was dedicated to third party politics. What the fuck? I have no idea who this Andy Craig guy is, but Reason should be able to do better than this.
Both major parties seem to be embracing unpopular presidential candidates. Republican frontrunner Donald Trump is facing four looming criminal trials while a slew of more traditionally qualified candidates fail to gain traction
Sounds like this writer fits in at Reason perfectly, with his yearning for “adults back in charge”, blah blah blah
Reason isn’t libertarian. It’s basically just democrat lite anymore.
Michael Rectenwald is running for LP candidate, a reformed socialist who now speaks openly against it and supports libertarianism. Has the right message. But he is favored by the MC so Reason will ignore him.
Reason is dedicated to corporate freedom, and trying to convince Democrats that guns aren't necessarily evil.
It is insane and arrogant to believe that third parties should even TRY to run for Prez without achieving success at lower levels of governance. Obviously candidates with some huge ego and donors who don't like what the DeRp offers will yap to journalists looking for some new horse race story angle.
The US is not two-party because of 'Duverger's Law'. It is two-party because third parties only choose to compete (meaning organize, develop a bench, have some idea of what they will do, etc) at the highest level of mass governance where it takes at least a few billion dollars to build the required recognition, GOTV, etc to get ONE person elected. The largest scale most expensive most complex electoral project in the world today. When the only thing they offer is a steam-powered rocket with no cabin capsule that promises to get you to the moon.
Third PARTIES can succeed in smaller races with smaller budgets and narrower scope of job function and fewer voters that need to be persuaded. They can not ever succeed by deciding that their first race is to win the entire gold medal table at the Olympics. And any party that even tries to do the latter with no competence should never be voted for precisely because they have already proven themselves to be incompetent.
No, the USA is a 2-party democracy because we haven't had political movements centered around narrow interest groups. We don't have a slave-owner's party, a Puerto Ricans' party, a labor party, a dentists', etc. Rather, the 2 major parties are successful at assembling coalitions of these interests. We even have the historic association of the Teamsters with Republicans while other organized labor favors the Democrats.
So, for example, while other countries may have a farmers' party that sees its own interests as distinct, in the USA there was a quick merger into a farmer-labor party, further subsumed into the Democrats.
We even have the historic association of the Teamsters with Republicans while other organized labor favors the Democrats.
Does organized labor favor Democrats, or do Democrats pander to organized labor? Because it seems to me that the parties choose who they’re going to pander to (slave-owners, Puerto Ricans, dentists) in such a way as to keep the divide as close to 50/50 as possible.
They go where the votes are. Which is how representative democracy is supposed to work.
Which is precisely why an undemocratic Kleptocracy had to finance the neo-nazi takeover of the real Libertarian Party. Competing in the initiation of force breaks down when libertarian spoiler vote clout enters the spreadsheets to REVERSE the coercion-at-gunpoint both altruist factions seek to maximize. So initiatin of fraud pinch hits for initiation of force until the crisis is safely past.
I agree that right NOW those two parties are holding together big tent coalitions. But they are remarkably vulnerable to a change that would shatter those coalitions.
Neither of those parties is really competing with the other in smaller scale elections. They are one-party - in differing locations. To use cities as an example - R's do not compete in cities. They don't even try and they don't want to try. They know the R baggage is poisonous for an urban election and if they did try to compete in cities then R's elsewhere would diss them as RINO's. So D's own city elections and R's who live in cities find different ways to influence things (via donations and corruption). What that means though is that there is a massive opportunity for 'a party' that serves initially as an opposition party for urban politics - that can then coalesce among different urban areas as a 'third party'.
The other vulnerability is related. Both parties - R's more than D's - are completely hollow at the bottom. They are driven from the top on down. Possibly because of the implicit agreements to not compete with each other via gerrymandering, base separation, etc. They no longer have the ability to get out the vote from the bottom up. Only via ads/etc. That is entirely in the interests of big-money donors/consultants/special interests/etc. In broad strokes. What that means though is that if there is something that should be on the political agenda that is important but that isn't on the agenda, then those two parties can easily be shattered and a third party can then reassemble the pieces. The history is the issue of slavery expansion in the 1840's and early 1850's. Though three third party iterations - the Liberty Party (purely abolitionist with a vote comparable to LP), the Free Soil Party (focus on slavery expansion with vote of 10% but which shattered all party coalitions), and Republican Party (the remnants of Free Soil, Barnburner Dems, Conscience/Northern Whigs).
Right now the GOP's big tent is at the verge of collapse. You've got a strong anti-war movement, but they also host a ton of neo-cons and traditional pro-war conservatives who want more US military presence in Ukraine and Israel. But there's also been a ton of anti-war independents and people who've fled the Democratic party because the globalist nature of their views almost inevitably leads to hawkish behavior and Team America World Police position. A lot of the neocons have jumped over to the Democratic Party.
What you end up with is a bunch of anti-war voters hunting for a candidate. Some of them were quite satisfied with Trump, but Trump isn't the future of GOP and the GOP is struggling to find other candidates that Trump voters actually like.
I agree with your points but I would also point out that the Democrats big tent is also collapsing. The hard left Democratic Socialist wing is learning very quickly that their support of Hamas leaves them homeless in the Democratic party. We're also seeing significant defections amongst blacks, Hispanics, and possibly Jews going forward. And the working class is getting crushed by Bidenomics. Where these people will end up isn't exactly clear but a lot of them will not be voting for Biden.
I do think the Democratic Party is trying to maintain two wings that are utterly incompatible with each other: the socialist wing and the moderate wing. I just think they’re not at any crisis point in the coalition: moderates are too spineless to really stand up to the socialists because they’re terrified of being called racist or bigoted. And they’re captured by a media that convinced them that mainstream Republicans are basically Nazis, so they can’t even try to find common ground on the right.
Democrats are going to have some reconciliation or realignment sometime soon, but not immediately. Republicans are well into the process of party realignment.
Over the past century and a half, they've been remarkably resilient at putting together new coalitions whenever the old ones fell apart. There's been at least one book on that subject.
The bright side is, this is how you make progress: by becoming a newly influential partner in such a coalition. Look, for instance, at how the evangelics gained stature in the GOP 50 years ago that they haven't quite lost to this day. And it's worked both ways, in that they've made unlikely bedfellows with Trump. Give and take.
The bearded lady defines minority Kleptocracy rule unendorsed by most eligible voters and subsidized by Nixon subsidies of looter machines as "Democracy." This is the quintessence of the fallacy of equivocation, offered in desperate groping to preserve the entrenched Communism of Pelf from exposure to law-changing Nolan Libertarian spoiler vote clout. Imagine a pressure group for freedom that VERIFIABLY bleeds votes away from predatory looter coalitions. THAT is what the LP was before the looter Anschluss.
Whatever the LP once was, it no longer is.
this is how you make progress: by becoming a newly influential partner in such a coalition.
The notion of 'working inside a tent' doesn't lead anywhere on its own. In fact, it more often turns into someone who thinks they will influence the party turning into a useful idiot instead.
Look, for instance, at how the evangelics gained stature in the GOP 50 years ago that they haven’t quite lost to this day.
That's a perfect example of what does work. The HOW. In particular Phyllis Schafly etc wrote articles about how the nuts-and-bolts of parties were organized - in this case precincts and precinct chairs. Church ladies who already ran the phone tree of their church simply took over the precinct work of R and combined the two together. It really didn't have anything to do with their politics - unions have been doing the same thing for decades with the D's. 15 years ago, those ladies were still running almost all R precincts. But many were dead even then and they're all dead now with none of those vacancies filled.
So a huge opportunity to take over that party assuming you have existing organizations behind you, people who will do the grunt work of precinct stuff honestly, and a very specific agenda item you all want on the party menu. It was how political machines worked as well. But Bowling Alone nation has maybe made that obsolete. I thought the Ron Paul crowd might do that back in the day but they have no social skills (and no organization behind them because they have no social skills).
And that strategy doesn't work in the first case I mentioned of urban competition. In cities the R label is toxic for all the same reasons that commenters here are known as and proud to be assholes. The election vote range is 19% minimum and 21% maximum. R's can kill off a potential opposition (meaning they can collaborate with local D's to do that) but they can't be one themselves.
The notion of ‘working inside a tent’ doesn’t lead anywhere on its own. In fact, it more often turns into someone who thinks they will influence the party turning into a useful idiot instead.
True, you do have to take the chance that you’ll be used more than you use others. But what reason do they have to respect you, even as an idiot, if you don’t offer them the possibility of exploiting you? As the tail, you will be wagged by the dog much more than you’ll wag the dog — but that’s how life is, and not just in politics but in any kind of human organizing.
And this has been true of the evangelics. But they accept it as about the best deal they could get. Think they care that everyone else thinks they’re always being played? They just know to swallow their pride and take the crumbs they can get, realizing that those who make fun of them aren’t getting even that. Pride is worthless, it just gets in the way of accomplishment.
In general your observations are correct. In cities, work with the Democrats. If you can move them even 0.1% of the way toward you, that's an accomplishment.
Or the Muslim and Arab immigrants to the USA gaining power in the Democrat party, despite holding beliefs diametrically opposed to most of the Democrats' social platform, just because Republicans don't welcome them.
This persistent-yet-inept nationalsocialist goes to any length to keep readers from realizing that PLATFORMS demand changes in laws and get them. Mystical fascists offered Prohibition--the victory of hatred--and got the 16th Amendment with 2% of the vote. Total economic collapse led the Dems to adopt the Liberal Party repeal plank and win with it in 1932-52. Yet entrenched Republicans demanded exporting of indiscriminate drug prohibition. This frightened Germany's Big Pharma into buying the election of Hitler.
Harry Browne went over this long ago. An LP Presidential run gains more media attention than all the other races put together. And you might have noticed there haven’t been any LP candidates elected to the House or the Senate or any Governor’s mansion. And it's not because they haven't fielded candidates.
How did you get the ideas you have today? Did you get them from a politician?
Where did you get yours? And really, who gives a fuck? Were you trying to be clever asking such a pointless question? If so, you failed.
Politicians are not efficient ways to spread ideas.
Remember, never vote third party because this is the most important election ever and we have to do whatever it takes to keep Trump out in order to save democracy!
It would help a lot if the alternative to Trump isn’t so horrific. In 2 1/2 years the country, and the world, have suffered greatly because of a grifting, senile piece of shit, and the Marxists puppeteering him. We may be in a full on hot world war by the time we get to the next election. Certainly our economy is on its way to full collapse, amd the rule of law is mostly gone.
We can’t take another four years of this shit. And I doubt another election will make a difference. We need a full on revolution, with a hard reset to constitutional conditions. And the only way I see that working is if we get rid of the hardcore leftists.
At the risk of being called a conspiracy theorist, I don't think the regime gives a shit about who votes for what. They successfully rigged the last two national elections and they are convinced that they can do it again.
And the Washington Generals-like GOP has done nothing to stop them from stealing the next one.
You’re not wrong.
Reluctantly but strategically.
I'm reluctantly voting for the guy who keeps comically kicking his hat down the sidewalk while bending over to pick it up as WWIII brews in the background.
The Democratic Party literally kept a segregationist and a KKK member in office until their deaths in the 2010's.
Don't tell me the policies of the party that has destroyed the black family has been relegated to the ash heap of history when they're clearly still in effect.
LOLbert moment
https://twitter.com/clairlemon/status/1713426342124138577?t=5eyL7f0KOYUJvi3O3q75XA&s=19
Immigrants rallying for blood & soil ethno-nationalism.
Do they not get the contradiction?
[Link]
Just like the BLM idiots who want to "decolonize" America, but think somehow that wouldn't include them.
It wouldn't.
The author limited the discussion to 'third party' candidates, specifically ones with prior history in elected office. That seems tailored specifically to avoid talking about Ross Perot at all, as if that never happened. I find that exceedingly weird. Granted, a party (the Reform Party) didn't take shape until after his second attempt, but it did come into existence because of his campaigns in 1992 and 1996. He mentions Jesse Ventura, who won a campaign for governor of Minnesota under the Reform Party banner, so it is even more odd not to bring it into the discussion more explicitly.
To add even more to the list of things about the Reform Party being ignored here, Donald Trump flirted with campaigning for the Reform Party nomination in 2000 before backing off.
I can only assume that the vacuum in place of information about Perot and the Reform Party was a deliberate choice Andy Craig, and that he made that choice out of a desire to avoid the implications for libertarians and the Libertarian Party. Perot won 18% of the popular vote in 1992 and 9% in 1996, which is far higher than any Libertarian Party nominee has ever received.
A truly independent candidate, with no partisan or ideological history attaching them to either side, had actually broken the low single digits that Craig says is the destiny of any third party candidate. And that history of partisanship is the reason why third party candidates in the model Craig is presenting never do better than low single digits. No one is going to forget that Manchin and Hogan were elected as a Democrat and Republican, respectively. The two major party nominees would make sure of that, if nothing else.
I noticed that too. The Reform party was a much more viable force than the Libertarians will ever be. And frankly I think we'd be better off now if Perot had stayed around.
OK, let me guess - you're one of six people left in the Reform Party?
The entire *point* of the piece was to discuss elected officials (current former) who'd jumped ship and ran for the Presidency under a different party's banner.
OK, let me guess – you’re one of six people left in the Reform Party?
Funny, but no cigar for you. I was glad to see some competition for the duopoly, but I didn’t consider Perot for my vote. Nor was there anyone running on the Reform Party in my state to consider after 1996.
The entire *point* of the piece was to discuss elected officials (current former) who’d jumped ship and ran for the Presidency under a different party’s banner.
Yes, I agree and I said as much at the beginning of my comment. [reread the first two sentences if you missed them) I was pointing out that framing the article around that narrow circumstance ignores an independent presidential candidate that did far better within the last few decades than anyone that does fit those narrow circumstances. I am saying that it looks like a deliberate choice to frame it that way in order to avoid having to bring Perot and the Reform Party into the discussion. Because talking about the viability of independent or third party candidates for President, in general, couldn’t possibly ignore Perot.
Perot gave the DemPublicans the heebie-jeebies, because he very nearly won (he was leading the 3-way polls at one point, above 30 percent). As could any fiscally responsible respected billionaire of high character who could fund his own campaign and avoid divisive social issues. The DR party quickly changed the bipartisan debate commission rules to stop it from happening again.
As could any fiscally responsible respected billionaire of high character who could fund his own campaign and avoid divisive social issues.
I think we shouldn't consider "respected billionaire" to be any sort of qualification for President. Being able to make a lot of money for oneself does not have as much overlap with the skill set needed for the top executive office of a state or country as some people think.
If Perot had been doing as well in 1996 as he had been polling in 1992, he would have still made the debates.
He was also a conspiracy theory kook who hated free trade and loved the war on drugs.
Including Perot doesn’t change the overall average cited much. The best one included under former officeholders is Wallace 1968 (13.5%, 5 states), which isn’t all that much different from Perot 1992 (18.9%; zero states) and better than Perot 1996 (8.4%; zero states). The obvious point was to limit it to cases more like a hypothetical Manchin or Hogan and to show ex-governor or senator doesn’t necessarily make for a “major” third party campaign.
If you open it up to include all candidates, that doesn’t make the picture look better. It drags the average way down even from 2.33 percent for officeholders, because then you also have to include all the umpteen dozen other <1% candidates that would include, like Harry Browne and Michael Badnarik and David Cobb, etc. And in terms of existing national name ID and fan base, Manchin and Hogan are much closer to a John Anderson or Gary Johnson at best than to Perot, who had been a relatively well-known celebrity for a long time before 1992. Perot also follows the same pattern of getting a final result way below his best polling peak. In any event, including Perot would mean opening it up to a lot more fringe minor candidates in the statistic and drag the average below 1%, which wouldn't undercut the point. Unless you're just going to cherry pick Perot because he's the one biggest outlier.
Former senator and Democratic vice-presidential nominee Joe Lieberman has acted as a spokesman for No Labels…
That’s all I needed to hear,
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He's got the Joementum.
Robby finds his balls. "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK BRIAHNA!"
Never seen Robby like that
Good for Robby. Enough with the “to be sures” to the people who are trying to gaslight you, or trying to draw a false moral equivalency. They’re not trying to operate in good faith, they’re trying to win at all costs and yet don’t like it when people call them out for condoning utterly evil acts.
Hope he keeps this attitude for the next Reason staff meeting. Watch Joe and Jacob scamper when Robby and his two big balls enter the room.
It’s amazing what a testosterone supplement can do. And to be fair, I would probably lose my shit on this islamonazi shill cunt too. Something Ned’s to be done about them.
Yeah good on Robbie. I'm right where he is. I care about the innocents on both sides.
My sympathies for the ‘Palestinians’ is more limited. A lot of them support Hamas, and the attack on Israel. Where none of the Israelis wanted any of this.
Nobody respects "international law".
Yes, the same way the US supported the relocation of tens of millions of people post-WWII. Sometimes, people have to move in order to achieve peace and create stable borders. BFD.
Giving people 24 hours notice of military action instead of 48 hours is a lot more minor infraction than just flying over the border and killing and raping innocent women and children by the hundreds.
Holy shit... kayyy.
the Ben Shapiro impersonation is pretty spot-on
https://twitter.com/ClownWorld_/status/1713576849799065911?t=uGOeiSiw8F8Ac4KnzBkRXw&s=19
Los Angeles
[Video]
Anyone supporting Hamas should, at a minimum, be locked up. This is what happens when you don’t get rid of them.
A real Rainey Center intellectual would explain how 15A gave black and white women the vote. But it was backstabbed by GOP Comstockist cronies to gloss over the Colfax massacre and rescue Republican candidates from voter rejection of book-burning Naziism in America. An identical switcheroo was just now pulled by Christian National Socialists appointed to the Suprema Corte to ignore the 9th Amendment, eviscerate the 14th and 19th, and make women slaves again.
Girl bulliers are really the most important issue we face. For instance the transvestites hanging out in their locker rooms. Right Hank?
Good god, did that verbal diarrhea come from an AI or from a mentally ill person?
Hank's pretty senile. He thinks it's still 1972 and antifeminists and male chauvinist pigs are the biggest threat to personal liberty.
He seems pretty libertarian on most issues. Not sure why he abandons personal responsibility and fundamental human rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in the case of unborn babies.
There is legitimate libertarian disagreement on abortion. But Hank still manages to be an over-the-top nut about it.
There were NO cowardly girl-bullying mystics in the Real libertarian party. But when our Roe plank was copied by the Suprema Corte in January 1973 every Trumpanzee catamite in Alabama and Landover Baptist nazi in Iowa screeched for a Constitutional amendment to re-enslave women under Comstockism. Read their platforms: https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/canadian-liberals-and-american-libertarians/
Sex work is work.
Hogan accomplished a good bit as Governor of Maryland, despite a heavily Democratic state legislature. I’d certainly vote for him over Trump/Biden. Then again, I’d vote for a dead frog over T/B.
That makes you a typical dumbass npc
The LP needs to grow its own candidates and not rely in washed up politicians who jump from their legacy party and try to co-opt ours. It's not about any sudden burst of principles on their part - they just want to keep being a big fish, even if it's in our tiny pond. I hope the party learned its lesson from Gary Johnson, Bob Barr and Bill Weld (the latter, I believe, holding the land-speed record for bailing on the LP after losing a race). We need our own farm team of elected Libertarians who can take a step up to running for higher office.
Johnson wasn't a bad choice. If he had won, we certainly wouldn't be 33 trillion dollars in debt now.
Don’t be so sure. He wasn’t exactly telegraphing the kind of resistance to the democrats that Trump put up. Which still wasn’t enough. I really like Johnson, but he got really squishy libertarian positions, like forcing bakers to bake gay cakes.
Had he been elected, I think the Marxist media would have torn him apart, not unlike what they did to Trump. And Johnson just isn’t enough of an asshole to blow it off like Trump did. Although there would be less mean tweets.
Dude couldn't even recover from a gotcha nonsequiter
Yeah, it was just a bad campaign. I was extremely disappointed.
No, it'd be higher.
Bill Weld kept Trumpanzee and anarco-fascist infiltraitors from ruining Gary's pro-choice ticket. In addition he got us 4 million counted votes. I stipulate this because my vote for Gary was trashed by a looter bureaucrat. I imagine 6 million votes were actually earned. Anarco-saboteurs soon put uninspected entry of alien terrorists on the platform. Lootvig looters from AfD and Alabama then got in to spit on women voters--offer to hunt pregnant ones down as fugitive slaves--in our name. With friends like these...
Yeah, we all know you’re obsessed with murdering as many infants as possible.
Now fuck off Hank.
What was Jo Jorgensen, chopped BLM liver?
Why not get their hopes up? Have you seen the D and R candidates? The Dems are planning to run back a senile, corrupt, octogenarian. The Repubs will likely run back the impeached, oft-indicted, second-highest spending President in history.
The third party guys will need someone better than Manchin or Hogan though.
As I’ve said up above, this is just a warmed over democrat lite ticket. Trump is a thousand times better than these fucks.
The US presidential election is not all that different from the French: it's a two-round system. In the first round ("primaries"), anybody can run and there are lots of choices. In the second round ("presidential election"), the top two candidates have a run-off against each other.
The first round happens to be organized by party, which arguably gives people more choices than the French system.
Though technically possible, it makes little sense to have third party candidates in the second round election.
I don't understand why some Americans think this is a bad system or what they want instead.
The two-party, two-round election is found nowhere in the Constitution. Anyone should be able to enter the final round, if they have enough support. The problem with a left/right 2-party system is that candidates have to appease the far left or the far right in the primaries, giving them undue influence. A theoretical centrist choice running as an independent could be a far more popular choice. Ross Perot very nearly was.
So? Lots of rules, practices, and laws are not found in the Constitution, many of them quite beneficial.
And they are! Imagine that!
I don't see that as a problem.
Ross Perot did run. He obviously was not a "far more popular choice" since he lost and got not a single electoral vote.
The US presidential election is not all that different from the French: it’s a two-round system. In the first round (“primaries”), anybody can run and there are lots of choices. In the second round (“presidential election”), the top two candidates have a run-off against each other.
That isn't how it works in the U.S. at all. The primaries only choose which candidate will represent the party in the general election. It doesn't matter how few people vote in a particular party's primary, the winner there moves on to the final round. That is how you can end up with a final round winner that is short of 50% of the vote. It is not limited to two candidates.
What we would need to see here in the U.S. for that to occur would be something that might look like a jungle primary at first. I don't know if a system like this is done anywhere, but I imagine one that works this way:
Party A has 3 candidates for its nomination.
Party B has 4 candidates for its nomination.
Party C has 2 candidates for its nomination.
Party D has 1 candidate for its nomination.
The nominee for Party A will be the candidate on the ballot for Party A that gets the most votes. Same for the nominees of the other parties.
The votes received by all 3 of Party A's candidates is totaled up, as are the 4 for Party B, and so on.
Candidates from Party A got 34% of all votes, its nominee got 15% of all votes.
Candidates from Party B got 30% of all votes, its nominee got 11% of all votes.
Candidates from Party C got 18% of all votes, its nominee got 17% of all votes.
Candidates from Party D got 18% of all votes, its 1 nominee got 18% of all votes.
In a true jungle primary, the candidates from parties C and D would go to the final round, as those kinds of primaries just take the top two candidates with their party making no differences whatsoever. What I envision would be that the nominees for A and B would go to the final round, as the largest number of voters wanted someone from those two parties.
Really, the reason we end up with a two-party system in the U.S. is because legislatures are all single member districts and I don't know that anything other than U.S. Senate seats have runoffs in the few states that do them. First past the post with a single nominee from each party in the general election just makes minor parties almost pointless for anything other than protest votes. And once 90% or more of voters commit to one of two parties for legislatures, they will want the same two parties in statewide contests as well.
Basically, as long as there are single member districts, no proportional representation in legislatures, a two party system will always be the heavily favored equilibrium state of government. Only something creative is going to avoid that. (A primary system like I proposed, ranked choice voting, etc.)
"Represent the party" is misleading. If you want to run, you pick one of the parties to run in, and voters choose you. Trump, for example, didn't "represent" the GOP at all, the majority of the GOP establishment hated him.
Good! This system forces voters to make tradeoffs. In systems with proportional representation, politicians make tradeoffs in backroom deals.
I hope that won’t happen while I’m alive.
Ranked choice voting secured another senate term for Lisa Murkowski. Which is why she got it passed in time for her reelection run.
So no thanks.
What we need is a top 20, ranked choice double half-caf elimination system.
In addition to spoiler votes, actual elections to office can indeed repeal bad laws and undo usurpation. Here are some numbers from Emily's List, a pro-choice outfit making up for LP dereliction:
8 women elected to governor seats
4 women re-elected to the Senate
36 women elected to the House
353 women elected to State and Local offices. That's 401 government paycheck-cashers eager for candidates to back.
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You've built bad blood for years with your constant whining and character assassination. Why should anyone even bother to read this poorly reasoned-article? You're a clown and you'll always be a clown, using a veneer of respectability as a cover for lack of ideas, principle, or critical thinking ability.
. Affirmative answers routinely exceed 60 percent. No Labels has pointed to similar results when voters are asked if they'd consider a generic, unnamed centrist candidate in 2024. Others point to the fact that nearly half of Americans say they are independents, far surpassing those who self-identify as either Republicans or Democrats.
Reason, allow me to introduce Stated preferences vs. revealed preferences. Revealed preferences, meet Reason.
It is something that they do not seem to consider that a person may think differently when it is an abstract question and there are no consequences versus when it is a concrete question and there are consequences to that decision.
Most registered voters choosing "independent" or "no affiliation" (depending on the state) do so to avoid massive fundraising mailers and calls from the big two. They actually vote (R) or (D).
How does one know if a candidate is a legitimate No Labels candidate or just someone masquerading as one?
no paperback Catch-22 in the briefcase? not legit.
>>unpopular presidential candidates.
how does a 50 fucking point lead add up to unpopular?
As usual, the place for a third party to start – like the Libertarian Party for example – is at the grass roots level and work up to state elections before trying higher levels of government. You don't start at the Presidential level. I am proud of the consistently maintained efforts of our party in this regard, but it is doomed to continue to fail until we replace the two-party, district-based, winner-takes-all election system with a ranked choice at-large proportional representation system. If the 45% of non-Democrat, non-Republican voters actually got 45% of the representatives after each election, things would change. Until then fugeddaboudit.
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Wait a minute, Park Slope Welchie Boy and Goth Fonzie Woppo have spent more than ten years now claiming that independents were winning the hearts and minds of America!
These Freeze and Surrender kleptocracy pimp articles have cleared the decks for a Libertarian reset to the original platform. Our legacy hostile infiltrators: CPUSA communists, George Wallace racialists, Tea party torturers, energy-exterminating econazi Greens... have all given up and joined the Kleptocracy as wingnut factions. The only way to vote for energy without endorsing the enslavement of women, or vote for prohibition repeal without endorsing importation of terrorists used to be the Libertarian Party. Our original 15-minute platform doubled our vote share every election.
So-called "Ranked Choice Voting" (RCV) is actually Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). The Fairvote People who have been pushing this since 1992 have convinced people this is the only ranked ballot system - totally ignoring the much better (though gameable) Borda System, and the mathematically best system possible, Condorcet's System. Back in January of this year, Edward B. Foley published an article in the New Hampshire Law Review showing that the "true majority winner" in the 3-way Alaska race for US Rep was actually Republican Begich, NOT Democrat Peltola, who was selected by IRV. Foley and his collaborators used the actual ballots and applied Condorcet's method to show that IRV's method of THROWING LEGITIMATE VOTES AWAY eliminated Begich and every vote (ranking) cast for him. The IRV people have skillfully convinced people that only 1st place votes matter and throwing all of those 2nd place rankings for Begich didn't matter. But EVERY VOTE MATTERS and it is a matter of law in most states. Arguably, it is also constitutional law. To date, no one (other than myself and a few others) has pointed out the legitimate votes are thrown away. IRV will not help third parties. It may allow tiny third parties to survive - that's the case in Australia, which has had two dominant parties for a century.
I've discussed this in my YouTube video (see Paul Hager, "Count Every Vote") - it's 30 minutes long with slides. I move pretty fast and cover a lot of ground - pause and rewind as needed. IRV is so bad that a number of states are starting to make "Ranked Choice Voting" illegal, which threatens all systems that use a ranked ballot - that would include the mathematically best possible system to find one winner among three or more options.