Trump's Absurd Property Valuations Confirm His Disregard for Reality
The former president's lawyers argued that even the square footage of his apartment was a "subjective" judgment for which he cannot be held accountable.

In response to a lawsuit by New York Attorney General Letitia James, a state judge ruled on Tuesday that former President Donald Trump had committed fraud by dramatically overvaluing his assets in "statements of financial condition" (SFCs) that he submitted to lenders. Trump's strongest rebuttal to that conclusion is straightforward: No harm, no foul. Since none of the lenders suffered losses as a result of his misrepresentations, his lawyers say, he should not be penalized for them. As Trump lawyer Christopher Kise put it after New York County Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron ruled against Trump, there was "zero evidence of any default, breach, late payment or any complaint of harm."
Engoron concedes that point in his partial summary judgment. But under Section 63(12) of New York's Executive Law as interpreted by state appeals courts, he says, it does not matter. To establish a violation of that statute, he writes, James "need only prove" that "the SFCs were false and misleading" and that "the defendants repeatedly or persistently used the SFCs to transact business." And although Trump contested that first point, Engoron says, the documentary evidence overwhelmingly showed that his asset valuations were wildly at odds with reality.
As Engoron sums up Trump's defense, he argued "that the documents do not say what they say; that there is no such thing as 'objective' value; and that, essentially, the Court should not believe its own eyes." The main takeaway from this case is its confirmation of a character trait that has been apparent throughout Trump's business and political career: He does not care about the truth, even when it is legally required.
Engoron cites many examples of SFC estimates that seemed to be plucked from thin air. A few suffice to show how little regard Trump had for even the pretense of accuracy.
"The Trump Tower apartment in which Donald Trump resided for decades (the 'Triplex') is 10,996 square feet," Engoron notes. Yet in Trump's imagination, as reflected in SFCs he submitted from 2012 through 2016, that apartment was nearly three times as large: 30,000 square feet. "The misrepresentation continued even after defendants received written notification from Forbes that Donald Trump had been overestimating the square footage of the Triplex by a factor of three," Engoron writes.
In defense of that blatant misrepresentation, the judge says, "defendants absurdly suggest that 'the calculation of square footage is a subjective process that could lead to differing results or opinions based on the method employed to conduct the calculation.'" Engoron concedes that "if the area is rounded or oddly shaped, it is possible measurements of square footage could come to slightly differing results due to user error." But while "good-faith measurements could vary by as much as 10-20%," he says, it defies credulity to suppose that honest error could account for a 200 percent difference. He concludes that "a discrepancy of this order of magnitude, by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud."
Trump also applied inscrutable math to his valuation of Mar-a-Lago, his golf resort in Palm Beach, Florida. From 2011 to 2021, the Palm Beach County assessor put the value of that property between $18 million and $27.6 million. Granted, valuations for property tax purposes are notoriously manipulable and frequently understate how much a buyer might be willing to pay. But is it plausible that the true current value of Mar-a-Lago was between $426,529,614 and $612,110,496, as Trump claimed during that period, meaning it was "at least 2,300%" higher than the assessor's estimate? Engoron thinks not.
Trump's lawyers presented an affidavit from Palm Beach real estate broker Lawrence Moens, who said "if Mar-A-Lago was available for sale, I am confident that in short order, I would be in a position to produce a ready, willing and able buyer who would have interest in securing the property for their personal use as a residence, or even, their own club." Engoron notes that "Moens does not opine at what price he is 'confident' he could find a buyer (although he opines separately, without relying on any objective evidence, that he believes that as of 2023 the property is worth $1.51 billion)." Engoron deems Moens' "conclusory" opinion "speculative" and "unsupported by any evidentiary foundation."
Or consider Trump Park Avenue, a residential building that included rent-regulated units. Legal limits on rent obviously affect a condominium's value in the real world. But not in Trump's world.
"A 2010 appraisal performed by the Oxford Group valued the 12 rent-stabilized units at $750,000 total, or $62,500 per unit," Engoron notes. "A 2020 appraisal performed by Newmark Knight Frank valued the six units that remained subject to stabilization at $22,800,090 total, or $3,800,315 per unit." Yet from 2014 through 2021, Trump's SFCs "valued these rent-regulated units as if they were unencumbered, inflating the value of each unit between as much as 700% (in 2014) and 64% (in 2021)."
In Trump's defense, his lawyers said his calculation was based on the assumption that the rent-regulated condominiums would eventually be decontrolled. But "the SFCs are required to state 'current' values, not 'someday, maybe' values," Engoron notes. "At the
time defendants provided the subject SFCs to third parties they unquestionably falsely inflated the value of the units based on a false premise that they were unrestricted."
Trump was similarly optimistic in estimating the current value of Seven Springs Estate, about 200 acres of land in Westchester County, New York. "Notwithstanding receiving market values from professional appraisals in 2000, 2006, 2012, and 2014 valuing Seven Springs at or below $30 million," Engoron says, "Donald Trump's 2011 SFC reported the value to be $261 million, and his 2012, 2013 and 2014 SFCs reported the value to be $291 million."
In early 2016, Engoron notes, Cushman & Wakefield, the source of one of those prior assessments, "performed another appraisal of Seven Springs, which included the planned development, and determined that as of December 1, 2015, the entire parcel was worth $56.6 million. Even giving defendants the benefit of the $56.6 million figure as of December 1, 2015, the value submitted on Donald Trump's 2014 SFC was inflated by over 400%."
All told, according to Engoron, the discrepancy between Trump's valuations and credible estimates was "between $812 million and $2.2 billion," which "is not a matter of rounding errors or reasonable experts disagreeing." Rather, he says, it indicates a systematic bias in favor of higher valuations, generating numbers with no reasonable basis.
"Defendants essentially argue that value is subjective," Engoron writes. "Accepting defendants' premise would require ignoring decades of controlling authority holding
that financial statements and real property valuations are to be judged objectively, not
subjectively." It also would make it impossible to prove that any given valuation was false or misleading.
"In defendants' world," Engoron writes, "rent regulated apartments are worth the same
as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party's lies; the Attorney General of the State of New York does not have capacity to sue or standing to sue (never mind all those cases where the Attorney General has sued successfully) under a statute expressly designed to provide that right; all illegal acts are untimely if they stem from one untimely act; and square footage [is] subjective. That is a fantasy world, not the real world."
During a deposition, Trump argued that it did not really matter what he said in those SFCs because they included a "worthless clause." Here is what that clause said:
Assets are stated at their estimated current values and liabilities at their estimated current amounts using various valuation methods. Such valuation methods include, but are not limited to, the use of appraisals, capitalization of anticipated earnings, recent sales and offers, and estimates of current values as determined by Mr. Trump in conjunction with his associates and, in some instances, outside professionals. Considerable judgment is necessary to interpret market data and develop the related estimates of current value. Accordingly, the estimates presented herein are not necessarily indicative of the amount that could be realized upon the disposition of the assets or payment of the related liabilities. The use of different market assumptions and/or estimation methodologies may have a material effect on the estimated current value amounts.
On "literally the first page you're reading," Trump said, you see "this is a worthless statement from the standpoint of your using it as a bank or whatever." As Trump sees it, lenders were on notice that they should not rely on his statements but should independently investigate their accuracy. For that reason, he said, "you tend not to get overly excited about it." Although "it was a good faith effort," he said, "I felt it was a meaningless document."
Engoron rejected both Trump's claim that he made "a good faith effort" and his interpretation of the boilerplate he cited as a license to say anything, no matter how disconnected from the facts. But Trump's history of making demonstrably false claims about matters small (e.g., the size of the crowd at his inauguration) and large (e.g., a presidential election he still insists was "rigged" by systematic fraud) amounts to a "worthless clause" that he carries with him wherever he goes.
[This post has been updated with information about Moens' affidavit.]
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Goddamn, Sullum, I can smell the TDS coming off this article from across the country.
Next you're going to accuse the facts of having TDS.
To think just this morning you said the judge was likely wrong. And it wasn't a government interest to decide proper valuations of property.
The good ole days amirite.
That was just a few hours and few a bottles ago.
To think just this morning you said the judge was likely wrong.
Yes.
And it wasn’t a government interest to decide proper valuations of property.
No, I didn't say that. That's the voices in your head again. Get help.
So then you think the judge is right. Because he used government assessors to counter Trumps valuations. That is what assessors are from the government. Used for property taxes.
Do did you not realize that or just full contradicting yourself now?
Glad you think government should decide value of properties. Finally being honest.
I disagreed with the ruling because I can't find a victim. The fuck else do you want?
Do you want tax assessors determining proper valuation of property? Yes or no. Because you just said you didn't argue against that in your last response.
I even had some fun and looked up my last tax assessment evaluation. It was 60% less than a cash offer I received just a couple of weeks ago.
I know what tax assessors do, and that they don't do it very well. That's why I didn't say anything about the instances with a reasonable delta. But 2000%? There's some shenanigans going on if the delta is that huge.
Answer the fucking questions.
The entire impetus of these charges rests on valuations from trump and tax assessors. Should government be the determination of those values? Yes or no?
If no, why are you criticizing trump more than the governments actions if you are so fucking principled?
Whether they do it well or not is irrelevant, their assessments are what we pay taxes on.
I agree banks appraisals are much more accurate, because they are risking their money and business.
You bet. Let's expose the liberal trolls here. The numbers I list are not actual but make no difference.
Let's assume Joe Biden is paying taxes on his Delaware home assessed at $1.5 million. Now Joe Biden puts that home on the market for $2.75 million. Does that mean Biden screwed the state of Delaware out of $1.25 million in property taxes for years?
So a DA in Wyoming (the Red-est state in the Union) sues Joe Biden for defrauding the state of Delaware and a Trump appointed judge decides this is true without a jury, and fines Joe Biden$250 million dollars in damages to be paid to Wyoming.
Would that be okay to you liberal trolls? That is actually the Trump case.
I would not be to me, because even though I don't have any use for Joe Biden, I recognize that would be unconstitutional and a very partisan decision. Constitutionality is much more important to me than punishing someone I don't like. It should be to you too.
The biggest flaw in your analogy is that Biden would have to have a family corporation based in Wyoming in this scenario that owns the Delaware home as a corporate asset.
[Disclaimer: Not defending Biden and not to be used as evidence I am a "liberal troll". I'm just pointing out the glaring flaw in your analogy.]
Most people think appraisal methodology for determining tax value is the same as it is for determining market value to secure loans and estimate selling prices. This is not true. I’ve read a few thousand residential and several hundred commercial appraisals over the last 28 years. And while I am not an appraiser myself, I understand the methods and formulas used in arriving at market value. Rarely have I seen an appraisal of market value match up with a tax assessment.
The judge in Trump’s case clearly has no understanding and no interest in understanding any of this, or this absurd judgement would never have happened. To think that lending institutions were taking Trump’s word for valuation of his properties pursuant to any loan request is absurd in its face. This doesn’t happen. Vern if he submitted a bogus appraisal, lending institutions conduct their own appraisal review, often commissioning their own valuation as part of their due diligence process. Especially in the kind of high value commercial properties on question.
Everyone involved in pedaling this case is a crook, a moron, and a lying sack of shit. Case closed.
the victim would be "the Truth" as well as individuals who did not get loans and mortgages because they responded truthfully and this moron did his usual disassociated lying.
If it is a crime to victimize "the Truth", every person, that subscribes to the utter bullshit the LieCheatSteal party spouts, from Joey Sponge-brain, Shits Pants, all the way down to the lowest freeloader, should be locked up, and the key sent to the bottom of the ocean.
What the fuck is this bullshit lol.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Read my comment above.
Put the crack pipe down, retard, and step away from the keyboard.
""the victim would be “the Truth”""
If the Truth can be a victim, Biden is in serious trouble. Along with most politicians.
Fraud doesn't always have an injured victim, but when a business deals fraudulently, it affects their image in the community and leads to several issues that will be adjudicated later. In the instant case, the victim appears to be the banks.
A fraudulent "doctor" that doesn't get caught for 20 years should probably still be caught and stopped ... even if he was the "perfect" doctor. If a museum purports to have a Rembrandt painting, knows it to have questionable provenance and is a likely forgery, and overvalues it for their loan paperwork, then the government would be expected to investigate them. Imagine if they did it for 10 paintings and sculptures. Imagine if this was the Met. Isn't anyone visiting the museum also a victim?
For Trump, people visiting Mar-a-Lago, a purported "club," are defrauded when he says it's worth a half billion dollars.
I'm unconvinced it's victimless, but even if it is, the AG is supposed to oversee businesses in the state and their dealings.
Your understanding of criminal fraud is lacking. And had there been a single shred of evidence that Trump committed fraud, these rabid Marxists would have criminally charged him with fraud. Instead, we get this phony, concocted lawsuit which based on nothing.
So then you think the judge is right.
In that Trump was less that truthful, yes. I disagree with the ruling.
Because he used government assessors to counter Trumps valuations.
No, that's the voices in your head again. I said that because Trump is a bombastic blowhard with a long history of lies and exaggerations about his personal wealth, that I think it's more than plausible that he did exactly that.
That is what assessors are from the government. Used for property taxes.
No shit Sherlock.
Do did you not realize that or just full contradicting yourself now?
I'm only contradicting the voices in your head.
Glad you think government should decide value of properties. Finally being honest.
Get help. Seriously. I'm starting to think you're schizophrenic.
In that Trump was less that truthful, yes. I disagree with the ruling.
How? Because the government assessment of value was different?
I said that because Trump is a bombastic blowhard with a long history of lies and exaggerations about his personal wealth, that I think it’s more than plausible that he did exactly that.
So no proof other than you A) hate the person and B) blindly trust the government. No other proof needed for you.
No shit Sherlock.
The judge relied on them and their valuations. You are claiming just above Trump is wrong because the government disagreed.
Get help. Seriously. I’m starting to think you’re schizophrenic.
What other evidence do you have outside of the tax assessment valuations as to Trump being wrong? Your entire argument is literally to blindly trust government.
I will also add symptoms of schizophrenia to things you don't understand.
You suffer from hallucinations and delusions about what I say and think. You've got voices in your head telling you what I believe. Granted I'm no expert on mental illness, but those are some of the symptoms of schizophrenia.
Everyone here can see what you are writing retard.
You just lack the mental capacity to understand what it is you are saying from a logical standpoint.
Multiple people here are interpreting your comments as I am. Because they too can read your fucking words.
You're not arguing against my words. You're arguing against hallucinations and delusions, or implications that only exist in your mind.
That's why I don't defend the things you accuse me of saying. Because I never said them!
This is why I put you on mute originally. You constantly attack me for things I never said nor did.
It's fucking retarded and there's no need of it.
If you had any grasp of logic and a tiny shred of honesty, you’d see me saying “There was no victim, therefore no crime” implies that nobody had any standing to start the lawsuit in the first place.
You lack the mental capacity to understand how one can see Trump as a liar and a fraudster who most likely lied and exaggerated about the value of his properties, and is also a victim of a malicious prosecution.
You lack the ability to see how those things are mutually exclusive.
And then you lecture me about logic? Puh-leeze!
Lol.
I’m literally responding to your direct words.
Try to have a logical and concise argument instead of attempting to beat around the bush saying nothing.
You lack the mental capacity to understand how one can see Trump as a liar and a fraudster who most likely lied and exaggerated about the value of his properties
Third fucking time. What fucking evidence? The only evidence offered was the word of government. God damn youre a retard.
For fraud there also must be damages. All the loans where paid off with applical interest, and the banks made money from the loans. Who was damaged and what were the damages?
I understand a lot of fools here don’t like Trump but imagine it is some unknown person. Just the facts, no names.
As for Trump being bombastic, they are no laws against that.
Shouldn't it have been up to the lenders, to advocate such charges, instead of butt-hurt politicians, that hate seeing their beloved deep state threatened?
None of them are victims.
Absolutely. And lying is not in itself fraud. Being damaged by the lie is fraud.
Example: I agree to pay someone.$9000 dollars for a used car. After the title is signed over I decide that car is worth 10 grand and pay an extra $1000 dollars. I Iied on the transaction, but their is no loss, so no fraud.
Not going to repeat it right now, because I’m busy and I posted an example on the same discussion on another article. With most of the same people participating in the discussion.
Trump has defaulted on loans many times. You can look it up yourself.
Which loans in this suit were defaulted on White Mike?
OK, have time now to repeat what I posted elsewhere:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lenders-forgave-287-million-in-unpaid-debt-by-trump-report-11603844181
“Deutsche Bank eventually sought repayment of its loans, accusing Trump of being a habitual deadbeat, according to the Times, with some executives vowing to never again to business with Trump. In July 2010, Trump, Deutsche Bank and other lenders reached a private settlement, canceling about $270 million in debt, the Times found.”
“according to the Times”
There’s your first problem. NYT has zero credibility and will distort, lie, or just invent any nonsense to attack Trump. Also, institutional lenders don’t take a loan applicant’s word for property valuations. Read my comment above for more detail.
I’m a professional in commercial finance. So I can say with authority you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about here.
Banks send appraisers before issuing loans. The bank sets the worth.
Municipalities have asseors that assess the property for tax purposes.
They said Trump overvalued his properties to get greater loans, and at the same time under valued his properties to avoid taxes. That cannot be.
The only time an owner sets the value of the property is when the owner buys it But that is not a stable price, because if you pay to much you will sell at a loss.
yes it can. The tax forms and the loan forms are not the same. You say it can't be because you believe in objective truth. Trump does not.
Addled-brained, lefty shit, TDS sufferer, knows what Trump believes?
Tax and market valuations are not determined in the same way. I covered this above. You should just stop now.
Wow! We have some really dumb people in America! This is another attempt to go after Trump with their TDS! This judge is being ridiculous! If the people and the banks had an issue, then we could argue, but to have a judge, who knows nothing about property and finance make such a ruling is ridiculous. If that's the case, we can sue the federal government for over inflating property values and goods also.
Indeed. It’s just painful reading the ignorant and stupid in some of these comments.
The derangement is Trump's well demonstrated lack of connection to reality. As demonstrated not just by these ridiculous property valuations but his junk science and junk economics.
And the derangement is shared by the Cult members defending him here. Even after a well written article describing how outlandish Trump's claims are and how that is clearly illegal under NY law.
The most hilarious is the argument that the government shouldn't be making property valuations. Government at all levels in the US has been doing that for centuries.
Great sullum, can you tell us what trumps property is worth? Please show your work.
You are endorcing the goverment stepping in the middle of 3rd party contract. Trump posted property as collateral and the bank agreed, I know your room temperature iq doesn't allow to understand that on all loans the bank does their own due diligence and both party agrees to terms
You deserve a railtode spike through you head
When both parties are informed and agree it is a contract. When one party is lying to the other it is fraud.
You can keep being wrong as much as you want. But you're still wrong even though you keep repeating it.
That's never stopped you before.
Cite an example?
Aren't you one of those who think that there was widespread voter fraud and that Trump won?
JesseAz, and millions of other people, know that to be the truth.
Yet there has been an utter failure to prove it in the courts of law.
Except the courts who have ruled on it regarding illegal election changes, illegal ballot harvesting, violations of voter laws....
That doesn't mean there was any unusual level of voter fraud. When legal voters cast their legal votes by legal means at the time of the election, you don't get to disenfranchise them because months later there was a court ruling on a technicality.
Notice that "widespread voter fraud" has shifted to "some places, in a few instances, made changes to their laws that were later determined to be incorrect.". They don't even try to pretend that more legal voters chose Donald Trump over Joe Biden any more. At least their changing narrative has finally acknowledged that Trump lost.
Oh, and there weren't rulings of illegal vote harvesting or violations of voter laws. There were a few rulings against changes made to mail-in and absentee voting, but none that indicated that any of those votes were illegal or fraudulent.
"JesseAz, and millions of other people, know that to be the truth."
You need to put an asterisk at the end of that statement saying "this truth has never been proved to be true, has repeatedly been proved to be false, and has lost dozens of court cases at every level of American jurisprudence".
The facts i have given you and others here multiple times?
Tell me. How are illegal votes not fraud dumbass? Court cases have adjudicated the facts. Just because you ignore it and the courts decided there was no redress for the violations doesn't mean the violations they ruled affirmatively on didnt occur.
Every leftist is a dumbass.
"How are illegal votes not fraud dumbass?"
Because those two terms are not synonymous.
"Court cases have adjudicated the facts"
You keep saying this as if there was widespread and universal rulings against the voters who voted by legal (at the time) means.
There were a few cases in a few places that ruled the way you say. The majority went the other way.
Your false equivalence between legal voters casting legal votes by legal means at the time they voted and voter fraud is nonsense. It isn't. It isn't even close. And none of the small number of cases you keep trying to treat like a SCOTUS ruling said those votes were illegal, not that they were fraudulent.
Voters cannot (and weren't) held responsible for following the law at the time they voted. Nor should they.
And, finally, the net advantage to either candidate was never discussed, so you have no idea what changes there might have been.
Remember when Cyber Ninjas wanted to find fraud in Arizona and ended up not only saying they couldn't find it, but that they found more votes for Joe Biden? That was priceless.
"Just because you ignore it and the courts decided there was no redress for the violations"
I don't ignore it. There were, in fact, a few cases where the changes made before the election were ruled to be incorrect. But that isn't fraud. None of the rulings said it was fraud. There was no redress because the votes were legal votes from legal voters. There wasn't any redress because there wasn't any fraud. There is a difference between "improper changes to election procedutes" and "fraud".
"doesn’t mean the violations they ruled affirmatively on didnt occur."
There were violations of process. None of the voters violated the law, since they followed the law at the time they cast their votes. There were zero cases where a court ruled the votes or the voters were illegal or fraudulent.
"When both parties are informed and agree it is a contract."
Yes, that's how value is determined, and that's exactly what Trump and the banks did.
"When one party is lying to the other it is fraud."
Who lied? What's your car worth to you, Mod. If Jesse disagrees can we charge you with fraud?
When you claim the square footage of your home is double the actual square footage, that's a lie. Do you agree?
Easily verified by miniscule research. Banks don't loan on words alone.
What's your point?
Mother's Lament asked who lied. I gave him the information he asked for: Trump did, specifically by more than doubling (almost tripling, I believe) the square footage of his apartment.
I didn't lie you obtuse piece of garbage. How the fuck did I "lie"?
Some places count the basement, others don't. You didn't know this Shrike?
Some count the garage, some don't.
Banks don't lend on square footage unless the value, per square foot is reasonable in the market.
The banks thought the value was reasonable.
Why does the government get to intrude itself into a private transaction, unless they're just persecuting the individual they have a vendetta against?
This is very similar to a " bill of attainder", only in its enforcement, rather that in passing legislation.
“The banks thought the value was reasonable.”
What bank? Be specific, please. Did you read the decision?
I haven’t read it yet, but I’m also not going around spouting my opinion on the case or the judgement.
The ones who never started a civil action for the case. They accepted valuations and were paid back.
Which bank complained and instituted the court case, White Mike? Be specific.
Did you read the charges?
They are acting like it is impossible to get blue prints or an independent inspector. It is amazing watching the leftist welfare leaches talk business.
It’s all counted. In an appraisal on a residential property, the primary valuation is for above grade square footage. With both the cost approach and market comparable s primarily based on that area. Below grade footage (basements) and garages, outbuildings, etc. are calculated using different numbers.
Commercial property is somewhat different, and the subject of a much longer discussion.
When you claim the square footage of your home is double the actual square footage, that’s a lie. Do you agree?
But no one did that.
Because that’s not how lenders gather information about assets.
They don’t care what you say. They lend based on what is.
They find out what is with their own people.
The objective value of Mod's input is zero.
the hoops some people will jump through to try and believe that Trump is not a liar..wow.
Honest people would put him up against Joey Sponge-brain, Shits-pants, any day.
Just ask Corn Pop.
So?
Are Donald Trump and Joe Biden our only possible standard bearers for decent behavior?
When both parties are informed and agree it is a contract. When one party is lying to the other it is fraud.
True. But where are the damages? Who was harmed? You can't show me a crime if you can't show me a victim.
This isn't a criminal case. Go look up the law that the AG is relying on here.
Or you know what, here it is. Fucking read:
Fraud is where a misrepresentation is made that enriches someone, improperly.
These transactions, by virtue of no one being improperly enriched, are not "fraudulent", and, thus, not illegal.
Th statute should not apply, unless the government agents disregard those elements, for reasons of having a vendetta against an individual involved.
Not something anyone should be applauding,
Go look up all the loans Trump has defaulted on, big time.
Which ones were subjects of the case Mike?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lenders-forgave-287-million-in-unpaid-debt-by-trump-report-11603844181
“Deutsche Bank eventually sought repayment of its loans, accusing Trump of being a habitual deadbeat, according to the Times, with some executives vowing to never again to business with Trump. In July 2010, Trump, Deutsche Bank and other lenders reached a private settlement, canceling about $270 million in debt, the Times found.”
The words are right in front of your face, moron. You don't get to ignore what they say because you don't like the conclusion they lead to.
Lawyers make unjust law, leftist dumbass blindly accepts it.
Who was harmed? The entire Civil system is one built on the theory of harm.
How is the law "unjust"? It authorizes the AG to stop businesses from systematically engaging in fraud or other illegal conduct. Is that "unjust"? It has been interpreted by NYS courts to not require a showing of harm to any particular individual, for the AG to bring a claim. Is that an "unjust" interpretation of the law's text? The AG has brought a claim based soundly on that law. Is that "unjust"?
I'm happy to grant that James is probably politically motivated, in bringing the action. But, you know - you do the crime, you do the time. There are people being prosecuted in Florida for trying to vote, on a similarly politically-motivated pretext. You'll forgive me if I care less about the "billionaire" con man who tried to overthrow the government than I do individual voters who had every reason to believe they could legally vote, did so, and now find themselves under criminal prosecution.
So can I sue te entire federal gov for the stop inflation act, which didn't stop inflation. That's straight up fraud
I’m betting Sullum has no idea how to read a commercial property appraisal. In fact, most residential loan originators in my experience don’t understand them. And certainly most lawyers, like the prosecutor and the Ho judge here, are ignorant in this area.
Libertarians for government controlled valuations. This should go well.
Uhh no
businesses create valuations
they do not invent them
when they do, it is fraud
If Joe Biden lied on his mortgage application is it or isn't it fraud?
Thank you for proving you’ve never applied for a mortgage loan.
Banks and lenders require: pay stubs, valuation of assets like 401k, credit history, indeoendent assessment for property, etc.
They don’t blindly accept the debtors word on the application.
Not very bright are you.
The market determines the value of a property when buyer and seller agree on a price. Tax assessors decide on a value based on "comparable" property sales but they don't actually know the condition of a particular property. If you have the most fabulous house in the neighbourhood your property is probably under assessed. If you have the worst property in the neighbourhood your house is probably over assessed. If there is a lender involved they will have an independent appraisal done. The buyer pays for that appraisal because they have to justify the loan request. But the bank picks the appraiser. When I was in the real estate business 15 years ago I never saw an appraisal that didn't justify the loan. Of course things got out of hand thanks mostly to Fannie and Freddie. But appraisers understand that it is not their job to control the market. And they will always be one step behind whether property values rise or fall. Small commercial properties are much more complicated because most are designed to suit a specific business and buyers must include their cost in renovating the property to suit their needs. Big commercial properties are way outside my personal experience but I honestly don't know how anyone can determine the value of a unique multi million dollar property like Mar a Lago until somebody inks a contract.
businesses create valuations
Funny stuff.
From the dictionary: Invent. transitive verb. in·vent. : to create or produce for the first time.
Thanks for the reminder that you're laughably fucking stupid.
Some other comment said the judge-substituted assessor's value was ludicrous in its own way, being equivalent to a single house farther from the beach than Mar-A-Lago. Anyone who thinks an assesor's valuation is useful is naive. Or they suffer from TDS.
The real problem with this article is its naive assumption of taking the prosecution's / judge's valuations at face value. The difference in square footage, from 11,000 to 30,000, sure sounds bad, but why assume the biased prosecution is correct? Show your work!
Sorry, Sullum, you've shown way too much TDS for me to take your word that I should take the government's word. And regardless of anything else, the only possible harm is to those relying on his valuations is those banks, and they don't seem to have complained. It sure sounds like another victimless crime to me, political prosecution.
I wonder how many other self-reported valuations could be made to look similarly bad, if they were on behalf of someone who fell out of grace or threatened the powers that be.
If the assessors are off by over two thousand percent then something really wrong. That or Trump was exaggerating. Nah. Blame the assessor. Trump can do no wrong.
There the banks were, minding their own business, when... ALL OF A SUDDEN!
Which is more likely, the assessors being off by over two thousand percent, or Trump blowing smoke up somebody's ass?
I'm going with door number two.
By the way, assuming the numbers in the article are correct, the banks and insurance companies really dropped the ball in not doing their own valuations.
If only there was some system the banks used to determine a property's valuation.
He knows it's wrong, but he just can't help it.
The assessors being wrong is generally more probable than a real estate assessment for a transaction. Through 4 different properties I’ve bought and sold I’ve rarely seen an assessor for tax purposes ever be right. I in fact had to demand to the government to send an assessor out as they actually don’t go to properties by default.
But as a loft owner, doubt you’re aware of that.
Trust government blindly.
You start with the assumption that the 2000% is unlikely, but the 5% is likely. They are one and the same, from different ends. You chose the government end. Sorry, buddy, I choose the individual.
You start with the assumption that the 2000% is unlikely
Yes.
but the 5% is likely.
I didn't say anything about that. That's you making stuff up.
You chose the government end.
What? I didn't choose a damn thing. I merely said that a two thousand percent delta means something is very wrong, and most likely a result of Trump exaggerating.
Sorry, buddy, I choose the individual.
No, you choose your god emperor. If anyone else made absurd exaggerations like that you'd likely say something was wrong. But because it's Trump you, like the rest of his deranged followers, excuse anything he does. He's right. He could murder someone on the street and you'd find a way to excuse it before voting for him.
These two are in conflict. You did choose a damned thing.
What is more likely, the government under-assessing a property by 2000% and missing out on all that tasty tax revenue, or someone with a long history of lies and exaggerations lying and exaggerating?
It's always astonishing when pattern recognition only works one way.
As I said, when faced with two arbitrary unsubstantiated claims, one by government, one by an individual, I choose the individual. You choose government. One of those is not like the other.
If the individual in question had a history of being honest, ethical, and modest, was not prone to exaggeration, and had never been involved in any shady business deals, then you would have a point.
But you don't.
Is there ANY government with a record of honesty and truth?
You are stating your views of an individual overrule that of the banks.
"one by government, one by an individual, I choose the individual"
What are ya? Some sort of Libertarian?! Gross.
And in this case it is choosing two adversarial individuals in the bank and Trump. They agreed to the value.
Sarc chooses government.
And more importantly than the individual, the concurrence of the crediting party that accepted that valuation.
This. But sarc hates the individual so much he doesn't want the two parties involved able to negotiate their own deal.
So just so we're clear, you think a government employee is not only competent at their job, but even more competent than the private sector employees the banks used when assessing the loans?
Trump doesn’t control the bank’s appraisers, or their internal review process. Since you’re not a real estate fi coal professional, or probably ever owned real Esme, I can see where you would be completely ignorant of these things.
To think you admitted banks can run their own assessments just this morning.
The good ole days.
Admitted? The fuck does that mean? Get help.
It means you have such severe TDS you will continue to defend government going after Trump for any and every reason even when:
A) Banks didn't initiate any civil action
B) Banks can use there own means to valuations, they chose themselves not to
C) Property Valuations are always tricky and it is common practice to have two different sets of valuations utilizing property splits to lower taxes while increasing value
Despite nothing being out of the actual norm here, you continue to attack Trump instead of the government using any and every means to go after him not for a crime but for being who he is.
Because you ultimately do support political attacks with the legal system when you dislike someone.
It shows you are not principled in any manner despite your own claims of being principled.
you will continue to defend government going after Trump
I did nothing of the sort, and everything that follows is a strawman.
If you really believe that's what I think and say, then you're suffering from severe hallucinations and delusions.
Get help.
Who have you attacked the most in this very comment thread sarc? You have attacked trump more than the government. Even after admitting you have no evidence outside of the government assessors.
For fucks sake sarc. Are you truly this retarded?
Yeah, I'm defending the government when I say the judge got it wrong because there was no victim. That's me defending the government. Yup.
If you truly believe the shit you're saying then you've got some serious mental illness.
You keep rationalizing why it is fine despite saying the judge is wrong. You are attacking those criticizing the judge. You are attacking the victim of this over reach.
You aren't principled dumbfuck.
My point was that Sullum has TDS, and Sullum is taking the government's arbitrary unsubstantiated valuation over Trump's arbitrary unsubstantiated valuation. So are you. I want to see some explanation of each before I trust either. But being aware of TDS and government chicanery, given the lack of both, tie goes to the individual, which in this case is Trump.
When the delta is that huge, something is indeed wrong. Could the government be intentionally undervaluing the property so they can give him a tax break? Unlikely. Could he be overvaluing the property to get a better deal from the bank? Given his long history of sleezy business deals and penchant for exaggeration, that seems quite likely.
Was it a crime? I don't think so. I don't see a victim.
Could the government …
Yes, government is well-known for its lies and corruption, far more than Trump. For one thing, they've been around for millennia. But perhaps you think Trump is a long-lived vampire; if so, let me clue you in on something: government sucks more blood out of people than Trump ever could.
Which is why I find it unlikely that the property would have been assessed at over 2000% less than what it is worth. They want their taxes.
First you say 2000% overvalued, then 2000% undervalued.
P.S. A 2000% undervaluation is negative.
"P.S. A 2000% undervaluation is negative."
First, it looks like sarcasmic used the words, "assessed at over 2000% less than what it is worth" not "overvalued" or "undervalued".
Second, what?! Only if you are doing subtraction instead of scaling.
What is 100% less than anything? It's zero.
What is 200% less than anything? It's negative.
Drink some more HO2, you're dehydrated.
You are doing addition and subtraction when the correct arithmetic to apply here is ratios or scaling.
And you can talk to Tulpa about the HO2. Another example of your habit of repeating lies about fellow commenters. I guess because you can’t hold your own in honest debate.
“Sullum has TBD”
Sure he does. That’s why Sullum wrote a blog post yesterday arguing Trump should have the right to buy a gun while under indictment.
Hey pussy, read my comment above. You have no clue what you’re talking about, as usual. I do, as I’ve been in commercial real estate finance for 28 years.
Or just let the liquid courage drive you to new heights of moronic gibbering. Your choice.
Assessing is not appraising.
The assessor is determining the value of what is taxable about a property.
The appraiser is determining the overall value of the property.
There is nothing taxable about 'beach to beach'. To the assessor it is an irrelevancy. To a lender, it is an enormous asset, highly desirable and something that increases value enormously.
"The difference in square footage, from 11,000 to 30,000, sure sounds bad"
Ya think? Most people call that a "lie".
"but why assume the biased prosecution is correct?"
Why would you assume the prosecution is biased? Brcause they are the prosecution?
And why accept a valuation from a third party that is entered into the court record under oath? Maybe because that's what happens I court? Do you think every piece of evidence should be considered wrong unless it is examined, even if it is attested to?
Yes, I always assume government is at fault, when the evidence presented for both arguments is as weak (read: non-existent) as it is in this article. Why do you assume the government is correct, in the absence of all evidence?
I don't. I assume that evidence entered into court record by a third party is valid unless there is some sort of evidence to show that the assessor is willing to commit perjury.
I don't make any assumptions about bias at all. Just because a judge or a prosecutor is of a specific race or political party doesn't mean they're biased.
Look at Brad Raffensburger in Georgia. According to your theory, he should have supported Trump, but he chose to support the truth. He has personal political beliefs, but he also has integrity and the ability to do the right thing even if it ends in an outcome he dislikes.
Having personal beliefs isn't the same thing as being biased. Never mind that your belief assumes that the assessor has the same biases as James and is acting on those biases. That's a belief with no foundation.
That third party is the government, same employer as the judge and police and assessors. You really think there's no bias there?
"You really think there’s no bias there?"
No, I don't. I don't assume bias unless there is a specific reason to think someone might be biased.
The fact that judges, prosecutors, and hired assessors are all paid by the government isn't a reason. If it were, every single court case would be biased, since the judge, the prosecutors, the police, and any paid experts are always paid by the government.
Goverment investigates corruption by goverment, goverment finds no wrong doing
You don't assume bias because more often than not the existing bias favors your views.
Why would one expect Rffensburger to support Trump?
Because he calls himself a Republican?
One of the things about Donald Trump's opposition is that it crosses partisan political lines.
There are plenty of, so-called, Republicans, that want Trump gone.
The truth is that the election was stolen, in Georgia and across the nation.
"Why would one expect Rffensburger to support Trump?"
My point was that just because someone has a political preference doesn't make them biased. I used Raffensburger as an example because he voted for Trump and wanted him to win (he has said this publicly), but he isn't biased. Which is the norm, not the exception.
Assuming that because someone has a political opinion they are automatically biased is insane.
"The truth is that the election was stolen, in Georgia and across the nation."
That has been repeatedly and definitively proved to be complete bullshit.
Yes, actually. Trump and lenders have an awful lot of experience in these matters, because they have a lot of money on the line. What has the prosecutor to lose?
So the prosecution is always biased? Or is this unique to Trump?
Sullum is cool with a judge finding fraud when the only victim is the state's attorney. New Koch libertarianism at its best.
No fraud at all. Banks do their own due diligence.
The judge did. You could try reading the opinion, which was conveniently linked in the OP.
The AG moved for summary judgment on the claim that Trump, et al., were systematically engaged in fraud. In order to get summary judgment, they had to produce enough evidence that Trump, et al., were engaged in fraudulent conduct, and to defeat their motion, Trump's lawyers just had to show that there was a triable issue of fact.
With respect to the size of the triplex, the judge pointed to objective evidence evaluating the size of the apartment, as well as contemporaneous statements making clear that Trump Org employees knew that the 3x number was wildly wrong. Trump's rebuttal was that size is subjective. They didn't carry their burden, so the AG got her summary judgment.
Call it bad lawyering, if you like. What's funny is all the people here defending Trump using precisely the same shitty legal arguments that earned his attorneys sanctions in this case.
An element of fraud is that the person, misrepresenting something, must improperly gain by it.
Trump got a loan, which was paid back.
Regardless of the value of collateral, Trump paid the lender more than he borrowed.
That's not a gain.
Possibly he got a loan that he could not have gotten on an honest description of the property securing the loan. That is, he allegedly got a loan for more than the property securing the load could have been sold for if the banks had to foreclose.
More money to play around with _is_ a benefit to Trump, enabling larger investments and possibly larger profits. It put the banks at a risk of losing heavily if Trump’s investments with the loans went bad and he had been unable to repay the loan.
But Fannie Mae and the other government agencies that repackaged liar mortgages and mortgages based on bubble pricing did the same or worse, and things did NOT work out for them in 2008-2009. So what Trump is charged with is acting like a government agency without being one…
The lender disagrees.
Therefore the judge and the AG are wrong.
This is a crime that didn't happen.
Trump asked for a loan, offered collateral, the lender investigated the collateral, found it sufficient, and made the loan. Trump then repaid the loan according to the contract. Trump got the money he needed and the lender got the promised profit.
Where is the crime?
The judge and the DA will say the crime is in someone saying something about the collateral. But what is SAID about collateral is irrelevant to this. The lender independently verifies the status of the collateral before making the loan.
For some reason, none of you on the left believe that. You all seem to think that lenders rely on the applicants personal valuation.
Is it just that you're all stupid? You ARE leftists after all, and leftism and stupidity are conjoined twins.
If proggy math can dictate that 2+2=5, i fail to see what the issue is.
Excellent point. Or he could use the "math is racist" defense.
Really, Reason continues pushing dirt around into molehills to die on? Really?
All Sullum did is recap a current event, sticking to facts.
All my friends have birthdays this year!
Great name.
Selective assertions, no facts.
Sure he did Mike.
There seems to be a judgement by the author on Trump's psychological state.
The suggestion that no harm misses the point that Trump was given better loan terms that his properties would warrant. The bank did not get all the money they would get if stricter terms were used. The banks investors did not get the profits they were entitled to get. But hey stick it to the little guy.
"The suggestion that no harm misses the point that Trump was given better loan terms that his properties would warrant. The bank did not get all the money they would get if stricter terms were used. The banks investors did not get the profits they were entitled to get. But hey stick it to the little guy."
So, hypothetical monies not made by the bank are now fraud?
Got it.
You know, banks are free to appraise values themselves.
Banks can even set what ever rate they want for a loan. Mind blown.
You're assuming the government is correct and Trump is wrong. Why not start with the well-proven assumption that governments lie? This article is notably deficient in any kind of backing for either side, yet you chose the government side over the individual. Do you too suffer from TDS?
"Why not start with the well-proven assumption that governments lie?"
OK, but you also have to start from the well-proven assumption that Trump lies. There are decades of proof of that even before he took office.
And centuries of proof for government lies.
Millenia
Agreed. But neither Trump nor the government should be assumed to have lied in this specific case, absent evidence of lying.
There's a saying about what happens when you assume.
Who was harmed?
Banks certainly got repaid. A suit should actually involve some party being wronged/hurt. If the bank and the borrower don't feel that, the state has zero business being involved.
So the state of NY is going to pay these fines to the banks that were purportedly defrauded? You know those banks that never made a claim? Or will they be used to pay salaries and pensions for state prosecutors and judges?
If they loaned more, based on the value presented, then they made even more on interest, than if they loaned less, based on a lesser evaluation.
The bank actually made out on the deal.
It doesn’t work that way. I’ve covered this above. You’re an ignorant partisan fool.
The suggestion that no harm misses the point that Trump was given better loan terms that his properties would warrant.
But he wasn't.
Banks appraise collateral themselves. They don't rely on applicant's valuation or description.
I think Sullum is just pissed off that his mayor is going full DeSantis.
Where are you perceiving emotions such as being “pissed off” in Sullum’s writing?
Headline: His Disregard for Reality
You are aware that authors rarely if ever write their own headlines, right?
You are away they have input to the headlines?
Long before he ran for President, most banks would not do business with traitortrump
He had screwed most of them
None of this is a surprise
The banks whose loans were fully repaid?
Say, why is Trump a "traitor", Shrike?
This perfectly explains why those same banks not only made the loans in question, but also accepted Trump's valuation of the collateral for them.
...most banks...
...most of them...
Which banks? Most of whom? Look up weasel words, fuckstick. If you're going to make a claim, cite your work. Still, given your obvious bias and the fact that you're a moron, you shouldn't expect anyone here to give a shit if you do. Fuck off.
You don’t know anything about commercial loans. Now fuck off.
This is so stupid. It’s a lender’s job to decide what the collateral is worth and whether it is sufficient security for the credit risk they are taking.
In the context of an owner putting a number on something, value is indeed subjective.
Edit: And the fact that there was not a hint of any default, loss, or harm to these lenders? This is just more unmitigated, unprecedented, blatant politically motivated lawfare.
It’s a lender’s job to decide what the collateral is worth and whether it is sufficient security for the credit risk they are taking.
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And this goes against both of your criticisms right above. Lol.
No, it doesn't. Since you're so fucking obsessed with me, why don't you string together what I said about the subject? You'll find that I think it's quite likely that Trump overvalued his property, that it's the responsibility of the banks and insurance companies to verify that value, and that because there's no victim I don't see how a crime was committed. Why is that so hard to understand?
LOL. I’m not obsessed with you. Your comments are so puerile and unprincipled it is easy to point out your idiocy and inconsistencies.
Being obsessed is muting someone then talking about them constantly like you did for a year.
I just think you’re an idiot who has no worthwhile ideas so find it fun to mock you.
The most hilarious part about this is you have had much harsher criticism of Trump despite ZERO evidence to support your criticism of him... while you have much less criticism for government abuse of the legal system to have politically elected DAs who ran on going after Trump drum up every conceivable charge they can including this case where the banks never even submitted a single complaint and all the loans were repaid.
Talk about principles sarc!
You’ve got hundreds of bookmarked statements of mine.
Hundreds.
You even brag about it. "I'm going to bookmark this!"
Dude, that’s obsession and borderline stalking.
Get help.
I bookmarked because it takes 2s to do so and you constantly lie about what you've said. If you didn't lie about shit I wouldn't need them. Easier and quicker to have a bookmark to expose your lies retard.
No it isn’t, you drunk pussy. We just know that we’re going to have to straighten you out when you lie. And you lie a lot.
So luckily the 'no victim no crime' doesn't apply here because this isn't a criminal proceeding. Its a civil action. Which also means the burden of proof is lowered from beyond reasonable doubt to preponderance of evidence.
The question that is being ignored is whether the State of New York has an interest in the conducting of business within New York for which it issues licenses and whether it has authority to regulate businesses within its jurisdiction and when or if it finds a pattern of fraud in a particular business... what can it do? A) investigate the business practices B) sanction the business C) revoke the business license D) refer to criminal division for prosecution of crimes D)all of the above?? Once the longtime CFO went down for CRIMINAL activity associated with Trump Org. the writing was on the wall for the business entities' licenses to operate in the State of New York.
I am not sure anybody is denying New York's 'ability' to regulate the business practices of entities licensed in New York. But maybe some here are. Either way, by losing at summary judgment, the Judge has determined that there is essentially no question of fact regarding whether the activity at issue was fraud. By definition it was fraud under New York law.
More political activism justifying lawfare.
New York democrat government should be overthrown.
Amazing you conveniently ignore the larger implication that New York's action is ultimately disenfranchisement of a nontrivial segment of the electorate. New York doesn't give a shit that Trump committed fraud; that he may receive more votes than their preferred candidate is the real impetus. To argue otherwise is peddling a dishonest narrative.
Hmm, if we combine your comment with windycity’s, here’s the story we get: The New York DA was out to get Trump by any means necessary, and Trump dropped a slam dunk means of doing so in their lap by doing thing like blatantly lying about the size of his penthouse suite.
This case was filed by an attorney general who avoided a broader criminal suit subject to a much higher burden of proof in favor of a civil lawsuit. She also ran an election campaign largely hinged upon Trump's prosecution. Forgive me if I am skeptical when there haven't been multiple civil lawsuits filed against other New York real estate developers whose gross exaggerations resulted in no harm save to Leticia James frail ideological sensibilities.
You didn’t read a word I wrote before replying.
Of course I did. While valid, your argument, a textbook example of ignoratio elenchi, is irrelevant to my own. I was simply offering greater context to explain my reasoning. Trump's alleged fraud is not the issue; Leticia James' selective jurisprudence is. The broader implications of her motives bodes ill for the rule of law, and should be a concern to everyone regardless of their political impulses.
It’s a lender’s job to decide what the collateral is worth and whether it is sufficient security for the credit risk they are taking.
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And that's what happened, retard.
Why is this so hard for you people to understand.
Lenders DO NOT rely on applicant's valuations
Except orange man bad.
Where's R Mac? He was just saying that the properties were undervalued.
and credible estimates ..
Are they the same as “credible witnesses” ?
Did sullum mention Mar A Lago retard?
Did Sullum mention the Judge insists Mar a Lago is only worth $18 million?
https://nypost.com/2023/09/27/donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-worth-at-least-300m-sources/
A link for those interested. Those who don't click, it was appraised in the teens over 160 million and local valuations have risen dramatically since then. An empty lot, smaller, nearby is on the market for 200 million right now. The post claims a local insider real estate agent thinks it'd list at 300 million if it was on the market today.
It's amazing isn't it.
These people are psychopaths.
If the receiver liquidates the property for 300 million will Trump get an apology?
Trump valued where he did because he thinks it could be subdivided into individual lots and sold. However, there is a deed restriction preventing *that* subdivision. He valued it as divisible anyway. So maybe there is a hypothetical scenario in which it could meet Trump's valuation. It just doesn't exist now. And his claims regarding valuation are its value "right now" which is clearly erroneous. But thats Trump schtick... he doesn't care. In his own mind the fact he lived there makes it worth infinite money. A Saudi prince could buy it for 2billion without blinking an eye. So its worth 2billion.
It actually is worth more because he lives there. People love buying properties from famous people.
Brady house remodel sold for almost 10x more than realtors priced it at.
Your statement has zero value on the actual law or common practices of real estate entities.
Are you sure you’re a lawyer?
The bank could have refused his valuation at any time.
If I sell you land and mineral rights claiming I think there are minerals there and you agree to the price, is that fraud? That is what your legal analysis is asserting.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about. You should shut up.
Which is a laughable valuation.
Sullum is a gullible buffoon on anything Trump. Mar a Lago is worth 18 million because a Trump hating activist judge from NY says so. Derp Derp Derp.
Not something Sullum said.
Tell sarc that. He tried to call RMac a liar despite the links being given in the morning thread.
Sullum is not gullible, he is malicious. This is pure political hatred and nothing more.
I honestly thinks he's working for brown envelopes from Koch.
Koch has dumped millions into anti-Trump efforts and he now essentially owns Reason and the Foundation. It's no stretch to think that he's paying for obvious politruk pieces like this.
This is clearly well into "Name the man, I'll find the crime" territory, as there was no victim or complaint. They just went looking for something they could nail him on, and threw enough resources at it to find something. Beria would be proud.
I seriously wonder how many players in Washington would come off unscathed if you devoted this sort of effort to finding something on them.
“This taxpayer investment will pay for itself”!
Whom do you think sued Trump?
Letitia James. She suffered no losses. She wasn't involved in the transactions. The state wasn't involved in the transactions. She brought these cases for political reasons. She doesn't give a f*ck about anybody else misrepresenting their personal financial wealth on these forms because she isn't bringing any other cases.
Did that answer your question?
Letitia James campaigned on putting trump in prison and suing him. Clearly SHE belongs in prison.
It was literally a government initiated lawsuit...
And they did this because after spending years and hundreds, if not thousands of hours, they couldn’t find any actual loan fraud. So instead, they came up with a mad up civil action.
Just like everything legal action against him from democrats.
Careful, Brett. If you keep saying stuff like this, people might figure out how ignorant you are.
Some of the AG's claims against Trump require showing intent, harm, things of that nature. In contrast, the specific claim where she won summary judgment does not. And that's established as a matter of New York State law. The opinion addresses all of the deficiencies that you and most of the other commenters here have raised.
You may not like that New York has a law that specifically authorizes the AG to bring a claim to prevent a person or business that is engaged in systematic fraud or illegality from doing business in New York State, and that they can win such a claim without having to demonstrate that any specific person was harmed. But that's all a matter of established New York State law.
If this were a criminal prosecution, or a private action, then maybe there'd be some merit in saying that no one was harmed. (Though it would not be hard to formulate a theory of harm in this case.) But it's not relevant to the specific claim being made here. The New York AG can protect New York citizens from businesses engaged in systematic fraudulent or illegal conduct. Seems like a good thing, doesn't it?
Libertarians for protecting bankers and other businesses from potential losses!
Do youbshower every time you simp for authoritarianism?
Youre on a libertarian blog.
The two parties entered into a contract where both set terms for their agreement. They agreed. The terms were met. You want to make this a violation.
The left continues to show how banana republics and authoritarian governments come about.
You're on a libertarian blog.
Debatable... but I get your point. 😉
The claims and logic supporting said claims are bullshit.
So it’s clear that an endless barrage of nonsense is going to be thrown at Trump, by Democrat friendly courts, to influence the next presidential election in Brandon’s favor.
The question is, why does Reason support it?
Reporting on something is supporting it?
Did Sullum criticize it? He has no problem pushing criticisms in other articles. Why would he not criticize the government actions at the heart of the story?
According to most of the people in the comments, yes. Reporting on something without inserting an opinion is the same as inserting an opinion. Except that the reader determines what the opinion was based upon what wasn't said. And anyone who disagrees that that was in the mind of the author is in fact defending that opinion.
I'm starting to think JesseAz has schizophrenia. He constantly rails against things people don't say, tells them what they think and believe, and then calls them liars if they disagree. He's suffering from some serious hallucinations and delusions if he believes his own bullshit.
What retarded simps you two are.
No matter how many times you are told about bias, you ignore it like the good little retard simps you are.
Cool, now do the Hunter Biden laptop bit.
What about it? You seem to have zero understanding of 2 party contracts. He left his laptop with a company under terms of non payment making the property the companies.
What a leftist dumbass. You two are the most unprincipled people her since Jeff left.
Once trump loses they will pretend they were always against the statism.
That’s one narrative. Here’s another:
Donald Trump, a native of New York, inherits his family business, which has always been based in New York. He spends most of his life as a liberal New York Democrat then swings hard to the right, running for President as a Republican.
He starts bad mouthing how New York state is run, how corrupt it is, yet does nothing to move his family corporation out of the state. On top of that, he blatantly lies about the value of properties he owns, even though as a long-established business in New York it should have been clear it could lead to legal trouble. So, while criticizing the corruption of New York, he himself engages in corruption.
Here’s the rub: the two narratives don’t contradict.
Your take is idiotic bullshit. You need to stop talking about anything related to property valuation. Especially as it pertains to mortgage financing. Your ignorance and spurious logic are breathtakingly retarded.
""He starts bad mouthing how New York state is run, how corrupt it is, yet does nothing to move his family corporation out of the state. ""
Politicians often claim government is corrupt and broken as they run for a government position.
In civil suits, you usually have to have standing and actual damages. So, one of his lenders could have reasonably sued him if they had suffered actual damages; even then, the question would have been: did you guys do your due diligence? Why didn't you ask Trump for actual public records for his properties, instead of asking him for his personal estimates?
This lawsuit is absurd, and it is equally absurd that Reason is trying to defend it. It is indefensible on libertarian grounds.
What's going to be next? Is Letitia James going to sue husbands for lying to their wives about what they paid for the wedding ring? Because that seems to be the principle we are establishing here.
Sullum will gargle the balls of anyone who might possibly put the hurt on the Bad Orange Man.
"In civil suits, you usually have to have standing and actual damages."
THIS!
This is the only reason the case shouldn't have been brought. Not because Trump is a victim. Not because Trump is a paragon of virtue and never lies. Not for any of the other reasons those deranged about Trump (his supporters) are twisting in pretzels to claim.
The case is bogus because it wasn't brought by anyone with standing.
Yup.
How do you vaccilitate between your arguments so easily? Oh. Not principled.
Honestly, I've been wondering about that as well. When Trump was filing his election lawsuits many of them were thrown out due to lack of standing, even though he was a party in the election. Okay fine, but I don't see how New York City has standing to sue Trump over appraisals that he never gave them, for loans that they never gave of a property in an entirely different state.
The saddest aspect of this case is his son, Eric, defending him yesterday even though Donald tried to throw Eric under the bus in his deposition.
Cite?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_XOV4PmVzA
Needs more pretention.
"Donald tried to throw Eric under the bus in his deposition."
Fun fact. Mike claims he mutes people for lying.
everyone in new york does this
Everyone in real estate does this.
And that’s why lenders do their own due diligence. I’ve dealt with appraisal review hundreds of times. Lenders don’t take anyone’s word for any significance part of the underwriting process.
This whole thing is absurd.
I think Sullum will use his columns as a resume for the "Bullwork: when Koch finally throws in the towel.
Once again, if overvaluing is a crime, stocks are illegal.
#LibertariansForZeroRetirementIncome.
Wasn’t the crime here using two sets of valuations?
Lenders make their final decisions based on their own perception of value. Period. That you think they just accept whatever a loan applicant is Erving up shows just how much of a more and a rube you are.
But please feel free to debate me on this subject. Your humiliation is always aesthetically pleasing to me.
A question for the lawyers here.
Putting aside the complete lack of standing of the government, is there a substantive difference between manipulating valuation and manipulating the underlying basis of valuation? Said another way, would misstating the square footage of his apartment be treated differently than misstating the total value of the apartment, since one is a hard fact used to determine valuation and the other is, as has been mentioned repeatedly, subjective?
Lenders perform their own due diligence. There were probably two appraisals on any of the larger commercial properties. Neither controlled by the borrower.
It doesn't matter what the applicant says about the collateral --the lender independently verifies.
Couldn't we use publicly available satellite photos to figure the square footage ourselves? Unless it involves just a portion of floors of buildings.
I think that's hard with high-rise apartments. There is a variable amount of space on each floor that isn't living space. I'm pretty sure things like elevators and other building infrastructure aren't the owner's responsibility. Also, I know sometimes there are split floors and vertical ownership. I read an article about someone in a big city (maybe Chicago?) who owned half of four different floors, all on the lake side of the building and all interconnected with stairs. So like a 4 story townhouse, just a couple hundred feet in the air. I imagine that could make things hard to determine from outside the building.
""I’m pretty sure things like elevators and other building infrastructure aren’t the owner’s responsibility.""
I think the owner is. But this is a city where the sidewalk isn't yours, but you can be fined for sidewalk things.
Every useable square foot on every floor is measured and accounted for.
how was the state of new york harmed to the tune of $250 million?
Because Trump is a big doodie head.
The Government would have standing if it was defrauded out of property tax. But as regards buying and selling valuations, that is a private civil matter between Trump and his lenders. How did the Government originally bring charges?
The government pulled the charges out of Leticia's ass
"How did the Government originally bring charges?"
I had the same question. Geiger gave me an answer (see above). Apparently it's a specific fraud statute called "Executive Law 63(12)". It seems to be a very broad statute.
Also the FYTW clause.
Is it possible a lefty will realize how bad the thing he supports actually is??
That would never happen, as the government performs their own assessments of property valuation. They have their own appraisers.
You could not find a more perfect example of a "victimless crime", which I thought the Left was opposed to prosecuting. But the rules are all different when it is Trump.
Not to mention that the statute of limitations would render much of this proceeding moot, if the judge had not chosen to ignore that law.
"if the judge had not chosen to ignore that law."
Does anyone think that this ruling will somehow stand on appeal?
New York state Court system? Yes.
“victimless crime”, which I thought the Left was opposed to prosecuting
I must have missed that.
They seem opposed to prosecuting crimes with victims.
If there wa sa crime, it would have been loan fraud. And if there had been loan fraud, Trump would have been charged with loan fraud. So since they had NOTHING, this is the made up shot they came up with.
Just like every other legal action against Trump by democrats.
At this point, whom is Sullum writing for?
Are there a lot of libertarians out there still rabidly frothing at the mouth with TDS such that they're going to say "I know you *just* said Hunter Biden shouldn't be charged for a Form 4473 violation where he factually lied on record because, no harm, no foul but when Trump reported his property values to lenders which actually is subjective, the numbers show just how criminally out of touch he is, even if there was no harm."? Is the idea to attract as many rabidly, insanely un-libertarian and capriciously anti-elitist useful idiots to Koch's cause as possible, consequences be damned?
Kinda makes Koch, Reason, the whole enterprise seem rather fundamentally anti-liberty, anti-American, and (drink) anti-Reason.
” is it plausible that the true current value of Mar-a-Lago was between $426,529,614 and $612,110,496, as Trump claimed?”
The Post place was far and away the finest beach house in Florida, until Trump’s vulgarian club makeover ruined it and the neighborhood and halved his own property value along with his neighbors- much as his eyesore tower took a bite out of the prime real estate around the Plaza Hotel in New York.
Read the ruling at the AP. You will discover that the valuation of the Mar-a-Lago property since a 2002 agreement is way, way, way less than he claims. It's encumbered by a major stipulation: it's a club, not a home. (Just googling it will conform that). It was done to save some tax money, but it means that the property has to earn an income to have a value on paper. Also look at how he estimated his NY penthouse, and how they got a clown to state under oath that Mar-a-Lago is worth $billions. (That was Lawrence Moens, a real estate agent)
Look at the envious real estate experts here.
Is it plausible that the true current value of world famous club Mar-a-Lago was $18 million, as the judge and Shrike claimed.
It cost $7 million to build in the Twenties and was lived in til the Seventies. Mrs. Post offered to give it to the nation for Presidential and diplomatic use, but the Feds said they couldn't afford the upkeep . Neither it seems can Trump.
If 0.9 acre lots surrounding historical and famous Mar a Lago are going right now for 20-40 million, explain how its 20 acres are only worth 18.
What they're doing is so incredibly fucking fascist and frightening but somehow you think this isn't going to eventually affect you. You think that they'll limit it to Trump.
Solzhenitsyn talked about guys like you in the gulags, insisting that if only Stalin knew, they wouldn't be there.
$ 18 million? I haven't hazarded a guess.
The Mar A Lago Club's gross revenue is reportedly around 25 million a year, which leads to a different price than its value as a private residence.
One obvious current valuation factor is the Graucho Club factor: indicted ex-presidents are not as much of a draw as incumbent heads of state.
It might do better if Hunter Biden bought it.
This is one of many reasons to be a never Trumper, and in fact, the primary one. The boasting and lying about essentially everything financial is Trump’s #1 identifying characteristic. It’s why any sane right-leaning politico shuddered to think about him as a Republican candidate in 2016, possibly with his track record as a liberal as #2 (if not #1).
I have read the 30-plus-page court decision from the AP. It’s a bit over-the-top, and I can definitely see one or two things Trump’s way (or I would prefer that it be adjudicated after a trial), but the overall reasoning is sound: Trump’s financials are fairy tales. And summary judgment was correct for this part of the lawsuit. It appears that instead of submitting actual calculations to back up the financial estimates of worth, Trump doubled down and said they were close enough.
He essentially did what I’m sure a lot of people do to get a higher limit on their credit card: fudge some income or valuation numbers. It’s fraud … it’s unusual to see it caught, much less the subject of a lawsuit. New York is picking on him, true. But, I mean, he deserves it … it’s what made him who he is, with all of these fake valuations. It’s his #1 characteristic. I’m surprised someone hasn’t printed an excerpt from his book about this. Surely he can’t resist letting this slip!
He essentially did what I’m sure a lot of people do to get a higher limit on their credit card:
Should those people be hauled into court as well?
As critical as this piece is of Trump, it strangely omits mention of the fact that Trump himself defended some of these aspirational valuations by stating that the Saudis would pay any price he named for them.
Notable, I think, in light of the hay being made over wire transfers to Hunter Biden.
You should clean your kitchen. I recommend a mixture of equal parts bleach and ammonia, in gallon quantities.
If anyone need an example of how Trumpism has broken the brains of his supporters, you need look no further than their responses to this article.
As their axiomatic belief is that Trump, like the sovereign in English common law, can do no wrong, any decision which suggests otherwise must be incorrect, regardless of the facts. Trump can lie about the size of his apartment but if the judge find he's lying, well, it's not up to the government to decide the size of the apartment so he's not lying.
Fraudulent misrepresentation isn't really fraudulent misrepresentation if there's no actual loss. (I doubt that the Trumpists here would think that someone who shot at Trump and missed shouldn't be charged with a crime on the grounds that he missed.)
It's up to all Trump financial counterparties to check Trump's own claims, not Trump himself, who can say what he likes, without penalty, though if he were anyone else lying, say, on a mortgage application, the Trumpists would have no problem recognising fraud.
Basically, you lot are not only suffering from self-inflicted domain-specific cretinism, but from the associated delusion that all of use who are not suffering from it are the deluded ones. To call you "useful idiots" would assess your IQ too highly.
If anyone needs an example of a raging case of TDS and how it affects ignoramuses, look no further than the obnoxiously arrogant piece of shit just above.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
You've earned Sevo's Seal of Approval for this comment, it seems.
You must be a jolly good fellow.
Three samefags in a row? You're on a roll, Shrike.
You knowingly misrepresent criticism of Sullum's bootlicking as defense of Trump. You seem to be a dishonest person.
Example of Sullum’s “bootlicking”?
Yes, he lied and I despise the man, but should he have his property taken away from him permanently because he said his apartment was big? Who is claiming injury? I hope he pays dearly for this fraud, but I can’t help but feel that none of this would be a thing if he hadn’t won the presidency in 2016.
It wouldn’t be a thing at all if he didn’t seem on track to win the presidency in 2024.
This.
If anyone needs an example of a raging case of TDS and how it affects ignoramuses, look no further than Sullum.
Stuff your TDS up your ass, Sullum, your head is asking for company.
How does Sullum pretend that it is remotely libertarian to even engage on this issue, much less to angrily champion the bootlicker side?
Again with the “bootlicking”?
For it to fit the definition of “bootlicking”, wouldn’t Sullum have to be excusing a government action where Sullum himself is the victim?
What he is actually doing is straight recapping of a current event. It’s just that the truth of what Trump did bothers many commenters here.
Delusional and a disregard for reality is not illegal or fraud. I see it everyday when someone with a 2 bedroom ranch appraised at $250,000 asking $450,000 for the property. Of course they all eventually take it off the market of reduce the price to a level where it will sell. Buyer beware.
As for fraud every person that has ever defaulted on a mortgage could be charged with fraud. They signed a contract and made a promise to pay that they would pay x amount of dollars for x amount of years until the property was paid off and then didn't regardless of the reason, sickness, job loss or divorce. Aren't they all liars?
That is fraud with damages. Why aren't DA's prosecuting all these people.
Value is by definition subjective. That the judge does not seem to understand this most basic of economic concepts is… troubling to say the least. As it is, except for the square footage bit everything in question is the absolute definition of subjective, agreed upon by two parties who have not complained. Which means the government, not content to issue fiat currency, is now mandating fiat value as defined by government interests, and the absolute retard of a dipshit Sullum is DEFENDING this fucker.
"Value is by definition subjective."
Square footage, however, is not.
There is a big difference between agreeing that Trump is a lying grifter who was "successful" because his father left him $500 million and agreeing that this case has a valid premise.
There are a lot of things that are disturbing about this case, not least the broadness of the statute under which he was charged (see Geiger's post above for details). But the parts where Trump is shown to be a liar and a shyster aren't where the problems are. Those are spot-on descriptions of Trump's behavior throughout his life.
Hey stupid, are you capable of reading past the first sentence?
There are no laws, only weapons.
Welcome to the USSA.
Haven’t seen you in a while. Is everything ok?
I feel bad for anyone afflicted with this advanced stage of TDS
That's the funny thing about lending money, you can trust what people tell you about the value of their assets and their ability to repay, or you might, you know, hire your own experts to check out the claims.
Since Trump is known to be a liar , shouldn't the fault lie with the banks and the insurers who accepted his valuations at face value without verifying his claims?
If a guy is known to be a murderer out on parole, shouldn't the fault lie with the murdered person who didn't hide fast enough when they saw them?
So I I want to get a loan, I have to bring proof of income and assets and such.
But in this case, banks (and whatever) just took him at his word? And it's his fault and not the banks?
No they had their own evaluations done.
Every NY real estate person lies about the square footage. Everyone knows it so it's hard to see it as a fraud.
And the witch-hunt continues on; endlessly. Now it's about conflicts in estimated values????? Good grief...
The author is clueless. I own property in Manhattan. The actual square footage inside the apartment is not what is shown in listings. It is regular common practice that common areas like hallways, gyms and entranceways are allocated among the units. Furthermore, the judge's belief that mar a lago is work ~$20 million is absurd. This nearby 7 bedroom property, on a much smaller piece of land, just sold for $53 million! I can't stand Trump but this whole prosecution truly is a farce and a miscarriage of justice.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/930-S-Ocean-Blvd-Palm-Beach-FL-33480/46846720_zpid/
Hallways, gyms, and entranceways added 200% to the square footage? Maybe it’s not Sullum who is clueless.
If the bank doesn't have a problem with it, where's the harm?
It's not like the banks are running to the AG crying foul. It was determined to proceed with a civil trial after they got nowhere on a criminal trial. We couldn't get Trump with X so we are switching to Y.
Precisely. "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime!"
The same Judge ruled that Mara Lago was worth $18 million - while Realtor dotcom values it at over $300 million.
Clear case of malicious prosecution by the judge.
Yep. Demunist crime cartel is at it again.
What the value of Hunter Biden's paintings again?
"In defendants' world," Engoron writes, "rent regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments... That is a fantasy world, not the real world."
So here is a judge that understands that rent control is a taking - but how would he rule in a case challenging rent control?
In declaring Trump’s valuations “fraudulent,” the judge declared that Mara Lago (valued by real estate experts at at least $300 million) is only worth $18 million.
Fraud indeed.
And please, tell us - who else has EVER been prosecuted for this "crime" when all the bills were paid on time?
The judge says Mar-a-Lago is only worth about $18-$27 million.
Mar-a-Lago, the mansion, is 62,000+ sq. ft. It sits on over 20 acres. The address is 1100 S. Ocean Blvd., Palm Beach, FL.
Currently (10/22/2023) 1070 S. Ocean Blvd., is on the market for $25 million. That’s virtually *next door*. The house is about 4,500 sq. ft. and it sits on a .39 acre lot.
If 1070 S. Ocean Blvd. is worth $25 million, but has a building 1/14th the size of Mar-a-Lago and land 1/50th that of the Mar-a-Lago property, HOW is Mar-a-Lago worth the same or less than 1070 S. Ocean? Methinks the good judge’s valuation is off by more than an order of magnitude. In fact, it looks like Trump’s valuation of between $426-$612 million might be about right.
Exactly.
Reason could just STFU about these issues and focus on uncontroversial, actually libertarian issues.
Instead Reason is actively pushing progressive and leftist propaganda and talking points.
Why would the government undervalue a property to that extent and lose out on all that tax revenue? Doesn't make any sense.
On the other hand there's plenty of reasons for the owner to overvalue it.
Why would the government NOT overvalue a property to get more money?
Why would the government undervalue a property to that extent and lose out on all that tax revenue?
Voters hate taxes. All 3 times i converted a property to a rental, required to be noted by the city, my assessment went up 30%. Rates are high, but full rates would cause most single property owners to revolt. Property values on assessment are often under full value due to this.
LOL.
I'm pretty sure I could actually objectively demonstrate that Letitia James and Arthur Engoron are both way overvalued.
It's so funny watching the MAGA cockroaches scurry around after another embarrassing development for Il Dunce, before the right-wing media honchos have the messaging sorted out.
Here, Geiger argues: it's not fraud if the banks ought to have known that Trump's valuations were so wild as to be obviously fantastical. And you're not exactly wrong - fraud does require "reasonable reliance" by the putatively defrauded person. But it's an extraordinary "defense" of Trump. You're saying that - yes, of course Trump is an inveterate con man. Everybody knows that! So what's the big deal?
"First, the OAG absolutely has standing to sue"
They do? I thought there had to be a plaintiff and damages for a suit to be filed and it seems like the government has neither. I was under the impression that there was some sort of shady workaround, but that in black-letter law there was none. Was I misinformed?
"This has the paradoxical effect of insulating most lies about objective facts that are easily verified on the ground that reliance upon those lies was not reasonable."
Paradoxical is an understatement! As a non-lawyer, this sounds exactly self-contradicting, yet plausible and confusing, enough to be normal in the legal world. Sometimes the law makes my brain hurt.
"“Fraud” is actionable under the act even without proof of damages, and without proof of reliance on the alleged misrepresentation."
Wait, what? I thought fraud required both deception and damages. Am I missing something?
"Executive Law 63(12) one of the most abominable legal monstrosities in the history of this country"
My completely non-lawyerly read of it is ... frightening. It seems to convey really broad powers to the AG. Was that on purpose or did it develop in the years since passage?
"along with the Martin Act"
Looking this up taught me a new term: blue sky laws. It seems like every state has one. Do you find them, as a group, to be bad laws or is it the New York one in particular that you don't like?
Also, thank you for the detailed and substantive response. It taught me something new.
Here is 63 (12) for those who want to read it.
12. Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law 3 or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem proper. The word “fraud” or “fraudulent” as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. The term “persistent fraud” or “illegality” as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct. The term “repeated” as used herein shall include repetition of any separate and distinct fraudulent or illegal act, or conduct which affects more than one person. Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law.
You're not right about the law, actually. Read the opinion.
I would be interested in hearing about similar cases in the past.
Simon is the type of retard who watches Pawn Stars, sees someone try to sell an antique for 10k, finds out it is fake, then calls the cops outraged.
I did. Did you? It was government determining values instead of the two people performing the transaction. Not a power you want to hand to government dumdum.
I understand how to read a judicial opinion.
This is litigation. AG presents her case, Trump presents his. Judge decides.
AG offered a bunch of evidence supporting her claims that Trump knowingly lied about his properties. The inflated valuations and property descriptions were on documents prepared by Trump. The "correct" valuations were derived from various sources, including tax assessors, professional appraisers, and other documents prepared or statements made by Trump. All that Trump needed to do, in order to defeat her motion for summary judgment, is provide enough evidence that a reasonable jury could find in his favor.
Trump simply did not do this. The only argument his lawyers apparently provided was, "Well, it's all subjective." That's not evidence. That's why they lost. And got sanctions.
Isn't there a six-year statute of limitations for claims brought under the Martin Act and Executive Law 63(12)?
Yet for some reason... the banks, who had the actual risk here, didn't pick up on this fraud.
What's your thought there? Those banks were just catastrophically incompetent?
Keep in mind, this is a civil case because a criminal case was not pursued. Civil cases usually the victim must show harm. NYC isn't even the victim. If the AG was suing Trump on behalf of a bank claiming harm it would make more sense.
They should be in prison, or awaiting lethal injection.
Banks don't do deep due diligence on their borrowers. They typically require borrowers to provide financial statements, usually audited by a top firm, and then require borrower to represent to them that the financial statements are accurate.
If the financial statements turn out not to be accurate, the bank then has to decide whether they want to call a default. Sometimes it makes sense to do so, sometimes it doesn't.
That's all there is to it, and none of it is relevant to the instant case. The people up and down the comments making hay over the fact that banks somehow "agreed" to these fraudulent valuations are really just showing their lack of sophistication. (The same way the same fools have been swayed over bare descriptions of wire transfers to Hunter Biden.)
Banks don’t do deep due diligence on their borrowers.
They don't?
What banks are these?
Banks do not rely AT ALL on valuations presented by applicants.
They appraise ALL collateral.
Trump COULD NOT lie about the nature of the assets in question because that nature is, by law, publicly available information.
How many acres, how many square feet, what is the revenue stream, how many rooms, what amenities.
And the tax and credit information is all perused. Reams and reams of it in the cases of large interests.
No lender simply accepts an applicants valuation and hands them money.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
And it shows.
Thanks.