Brickbat: Religious Unfreedom

An Egyptian court has sentenced human rights activist Patrick Zaki to three years in prison after finding him guilty of "spreading false news" in an article he wrote about his life as a Coptic Christian. Zaki has already spent 22 months in prison, where his lawyers said he was tortured.

Comments

[Adans smith]

The 'religion of peace' has no tolerance for non believers .

[BigT]

The Jan 6 trespassers have been jail about as long. And just living with a Biden/Harris administration is torture as bad as any Egyptian jail.

[R Mac]

Some of their attorneys have also claimed they’re being tortured.

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[Jerryskids]

There are more Muslims in the world than there are Chinese and they are far more dangerously barbarically bat-shit insane than the Chinese, too. While we are engaged in fighting Russia and over-looking the threat from the Chinese, nobody is urging us to nuke the shit out of the Muslims like we should be.

[TheReEncogitationer]

Naturally, there is overlap between the worldwide Islamic Ummah and China and Russia.

The Uighurs in Red China are predominantly Muslim. Although persecuted by Emperor Xi now, the Uighurs have Islamists among them who have staged terrorist attacks in The Middle Kingdom.

Also, Russia’s Putin has a strange concept of religious freedom and tolerance and thinks this means that Al-Qu’ran should not be insulted.

Muslim fighters are on both sides of the present war in Ukraine. As Islamists did in Lebanon in the Seventies, they are no doubt using the Ukraine war as dress rehearsal for the larger Jihad with the rest of the world.

So fret not, Jerryskids. Islam is far enough spread out that global NBC horrors would hit it’s believers too.

But the better option is that humans use their frontal lobes, stop believing dangerous superstitious bullshit, and turn houses of worship to useful and entertaining purposes of human flourishing.

One day, the Mineret announcer will say: “Asalem Alaykum, Shalom, and Whussup, Kids! Welcome to the Kaaba Skating Rick here in Mecca! Here’s Steely Dan’s ‘Hey, Nineteen’ for your skating enjoyment! Donald Fagen and Walter Becker liked ’em older than The One We No Longer Praise! Ha! Ha! ‘Skate a little lower now!’”
🙂
😉

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[Inigo Montoya]

Ah yes, prison sentences for “spreading false (i.e., inconvenient) news.” Coming soon to a place near you!

[Social Justice is neither]

What do you mean coming soon? Pretty much sums up the current Democrat view and actions.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Misinformation! Sounds familiar.

[Nazi-Chipping Warlock]

Sounds downright insurrectiony.

[R Mac]

Lucky we live in a country where things like this could never happen.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Wrote about his life as a Coptic Christian…Islamophobic, obviously.

[TheReEncogitationer]

Mother's Lament, R Mac, Longtobefree, all believers of the Commentariat: Now is the time for your tears...And this treatment of Patrick Zaki comes from fellow believers in your same Abrahamic God.

[Minadin]

We get that you hate religion. But you talk about it almost 'religiously'. One might say you're on a 'crusade'. I'm not religious myself, and as such, rarely talk about it, unless someone else brings it up.

Do you believe that people who believe differently from the majority about such matters should be locked up for talking about their beliefs? If I lived in Egypt and wrote about how I wasn't particularly religious, it's cool to throw me in the slammer?

[TheReEncogitationer]

If I weren't in a world where people try to govern whole societies based on illusions, I wouldn't talk about it either, but that's simply not the case.

I just said that Patrick Zaki's imprisonment is worth crying about. Does that not show where I stand on free expression of minority views?

[Mother's Lament]

Lol, you’re such a nut. You anti-religious zealots sound exactly like the fundy stereotype you're always raging about.

He wasn’t jailed for “insulting Islam” or anything like that but for talking about how the Egyptian government treats the Copts like shit.

[TheReEncogitationer]

Patrick Zaki was arrested and imprisoned and possibly tortured for merely expressing his thoughts. No one has to agree with those thoughts to condemn arrest and imprisonment for freedom of thought and expression.

And that thought about the treatment of the Copts in Egypt and the treatment of Christians throughout the Islamic world is very correct.

Coptic Christians have been tightly repressed in Egypt. And to give just one really bad example, Christians have been nearly driven out of the Iraq where the U.S. spent Trillions of Dollars and thousands of lives to supposedly "liberate" the Iraqi people.

And Saudi Arabia forbids it's citizens to be anything but Muslim and all Christians, Jews, and other worldviews there are deeply closeted and underground. Yet everybody sings the praises of Trump's Abraham Accords making a temporary, sham "peace" or hudna between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

[SQRLSY One]

This kind of thing IS coming to the USA, and I’ll tell ya why!!!

I told ya so!!!!

The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections

And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.

This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.

Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!

This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!

[ace_m82]

Given that leftists prove time and again that they don't stand for any morals, traditions, or norms, that they only care about power, and all of the proven election interference, legal and illegal, that they engaged in, why should you find it so odd that people would think they'd cross the last Rubicon and actually stuff ballots ...just like they've been doing in Chicago for so long that I've heard jokes about it my whole life?

[R Mac]

Shitsy has religious views that the 2020 election was the most secure election ever, because it defeated his devil, and he’s projecting.

[ace_m82]

Allah is not the same thing as YHWH. Allah's "messenger" didn't even know who the third member of the Trinity was (according to the Christians)!
It's quite obvious to anyone who looks at this with an unbiased lens that Muhammad was right the first time, he was demon possessed! It does explain his actions quite well!

[SRG]

Allah is exactly the same as YHWH. The god of Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same god, but the Christians disagree with the Jews and Muslims over some attributes, e.g., his triune nature. Some early Christian sects held Jesus to be a prophet but not divine, which is the Muslim position. Jesus, as Issa, appears frequently in the Koran. And Allah is what Arabic Christians call God, though IIRC Malaysia's Supreme Court ruled that Christians cannot use "Allah" to mean "God" in their Arabic liturgy.

The word itself is cognate with the Hebrew "El", also meaning "God" (or "god" - there's no capitalisation in Hebrew.)

That Mohammed was meshuggeh is a separate point.

[ace_m82]

Apparently, YHWH doesn't know who the members of the Trinity are, that have existed as one since before time!
No "Christian" sects held Jesus to be anything other than Divine. Words mean things!
"El" in Hebrew doesn't actually mean just "God", but just a spiritual being. It means "God" in certain contexts.
You have no idea what you're talking about and have no idea how much knowledge the person you're talking to has in his head and at his fingertips!
Stop talking, and stop claiming something that's easily, provably false!
Have a nice day!

[SRG]

It is your Christian belief that the Trinity has existed since before time. It is neither Jewish nor Muslim belief.

No “Christian” sects held Jesus to be anything other than Divine. Words mean things!

"Christian" means a follower of Christ. It does not inherently mean someone who thinks that Jesus was divine, though as the surviving sects all do so believe, it is natural to think that Christian has that unique meaning - and the Council of Nicaea in effect so decided

As in Jewish tradition the Messiah was wholly human, it would not be surprising at all that some early believers in Jesus's being the Messiah would not hold him to be divine. And given Roman influence, where deceased emperors could be raised to godhood, it's not surprising that some Christians thought Jesus was "exalted" to divinity only after his death.

“El” in Hebrew doesn’t actually mean just “God”, but just a spiritual being. It means “God” in certain contexts.

Nope. It's from a Semitic root meaning "god". I am unaware of any instance in the Tanakh of "el" being used to mean any thing other than a god or indeed, God - cf el elyon or el shaddai.

You have no idea what you’re talking about and have no idea how much knowledge the person you’re talking to has in his head and at his fingertips!

Tu quoque. I might defer to your knowledge of mainstream Christianity - among other things, while I can read Greek, I have only a limited understanding of it. But when it comes to Judaism and Jewish history, unless you've had a semicha, which I doubt. I will not defer at all.

[SRG]

I note that Christadelphians, who are a very small current sect, don't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

[ace_m82]

"I note that Christadelphians, who are a very small current sect, don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus."
They aren't Christian if they don't believe Jesus' own words. You cannot follow someone if you don't even listen to what they say!

[SRG]

Jesus did not claim to be divine - as you well know. Referring to God as the father is not probative, as it was common enough - and still is common - for Jews to pray to God as "our father" without any of us claiming to be divine.

[ace_m82]

"Jesus did not claim to be divine – as you well know."
He got sentenced to death for blasphemy, claiming to be God!
What do you know the Sanhedrin didn't?
Luke 22:70–71
John 8:58–59
John 14:8–11
Luke 5:20
Matthew 14:33, 28:9
In fact, every time Jesus says "Son of Man" it refers to Daniel 7,

"I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."

[ace_m82]

"It is your Christian belief that the Trinity has existed since before time. It is neither Jewish nor Muslim belief."
Wrong and right. It is a Jewish belief, fitting very well with the OT trinity of YHWH, the "Angel of the LORD", and the Spirit of the LORD. This was Jewish understanding of the OT until they dropped it after Christians got really good at pointing out that Jesus was the Angel of the LORD.
Muslims don't believe this. That's because they don't worship YHWH.
"'Christian' means a follower of Christ. It does not inherently mean someone who thinks that Jesus was divine"
Yes, actually it does. Why? Because Jesus said he was Divine many times. If you ignore what he says, you aren't following him.
"it would not be surprising at all that some early believers in Jesus’s being the Messiah would not hold him to be divine."
There weren't any. Words mean things.
"it’s not surprising that some Christians thought Jesus was 'exalted' to divinity only after his death."
No, words mean things.
As for "El", you need to learn more. It means "high one", "might, strength, or power." Blue letter Bible shows it's translated even by the KJV "in the following manner: God (213x), god (16x), power (4x), mighty (5x), goodly (1x), great (1x), idols (1x), Immanuel (with H6005) (2x), might (1x), strong (1x)."
"But when it comes to Judaism and Jewish history, unless you’ve had a semicha, which I doubt. I will not defer at all."
Perhaps you do know more of modern Jewish thought than I do. What I do know, quite well, is ancient Jewish thought. Whether you know more, maybe. (Again, note I claimed to have the knowledge at my fingertips.) What I do know is that the God of Abraham as worshiped by true believers in the OT is the same as the God worshiped by true believers in the NT. The Muslims don't even know who the Trinity is, according to their messenger! It isn't the same God!
Don't say things that are easily, provably false!

[SRG]

Wrong and right. It is a Jewish belief, fitting very well with the OT trinity of YHWH, the “Angel of the LORD”, and the Spirit of the LORD. This was Jewish understanding of the OT until they dropped it after Christians got really good at pointing out that Jesus was the Angel of the LORD.

Nope. Flatly untrue. There is no indication of a Trinity in the Tanakh. Angels - or messengers - were not of the same essence of God. And the "Spirit of the Lord" from Gen 1 is better translated as "wind" - "ruach" has multiple meanings. The word "merachephet" usually translated as "hovering" is used to describe the beating of an eagle's wing above the nest, the idea being that the divine wind was blowing the waters dry.

Either you're making this crap up or you've taken on board someone else's meshugaas.

Why? Because Jesus said he was Divine many times. If you ignore what he says, you aren’t following him.

Nope. You keep saying that "words mean things" which is true, but then insist that your meaning is correct. I have known Protestants who denied that Catholics were Christian on similar grounds - their understanding of what Christianity meant requiring them to exclude Catholicism.

Words mean things but words do not uniquely mean unique things. "Christian", after all, can refer to someone who follows Christ or someone who adheres to the teachings of a church that follows Christ. Two different albeit related meanings.

As far as El is concerned, evidently you have access to a concordance - but not an etymology. And you provide frequencies not references. Give me a couple of actual references so I can check the Hebrew and the Septuagint. I don't care what the Vulgate or the KJV or NIV, erc. say.

Don’t say things that are easily, provably false!

As I responded above - tu quoque.

Perhaps you do know more of modern Jewish thought than I do. What I do know, quite well, is ancient Jewish thought. Whether you know more, maybe. (Again, note I claimed to have the knowledge at my fingertips.)

But I have the knowledge in my head. 9 years of Orthodox Jewish boarding school followed by my own further reading can do that.

Oh, google "Henotheism". If you don't know the word, you should.,

[ace_m82]

"There is no indication of a Trinity in the Tanakh."
You need to read your Torah more carefully.
Genesis 16, 22, 31, 32, Exodus 3, 32.
Add this together with:
"I am the LORD, that is My name; My glory I give to no other, nor My praise to idols" (Isaiah 42:8)
In Genesis 18 the Angel of the LORD speaks of the LORD as if he's separate from the Angel AND the same thing, at the same time.
Also, Joshua 5, Judges 6, 13, 2 Samuel 24, Zechariah 1, and there are other proofs that I'm not going to waste space here showing. This, combined with the Spirit of the LORD, shows there are multiple parts to YHWH, as known by the first century Jews. (Yes, the Spirit can be the wind, breath, etc., it doesn't affect that it's a thing.) They cancelled this teaching because if they didn't they would be too easy "prey" for Christian evangelists. You can deny it if you want, but it's true.
Yes, Jesus claimed to be Divine many times. The last time got him convicted of blasphemy - claiming to be God.
"You keep saying that 'words mean things' which is true, but then insist that your meaning is correct."
Yes, that's because it is correct. "Christian" means literally "little Christ" - "Christ follower". You can't follow him if you deny what he says.
Also, just because people use words incorrectly that doesn't mean I am.
As for "El":
Deu 3:24, Deu 7:21, Deu 10:17, Neh 9:32, Job 36:5, Psa 29:1, ...
Heck, here's the link:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h410/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Click on each to get the actual word.
I don't blame you for not caring what the KJV or NIV say, BTW. 🙂
"But I have the knowledge in my head. 9 years of Orthodox Jewish boarding school followed by my own further reading can do that."
Fair enough. But ask yourself, why would they teach you things that are counterproductive to their claims?
Ask yourself, when was the last time your heard Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53 read on shabbat?
And there's lots of words I don't the meanings of!
[Looks it up.]
I suppose strictly you'd have to accuse both Jews and Christians of this due to Psalm 82:6.
And it's early, but Shabbat Shalom!

[SRG]

And it’s early, but Shabbat Shalom!

Thank you! I’m not observant, but it’s appreciated nonetheless ????

Two people: the first is charitable, is a pacifist, does not commit adultery nor steals, does not pursue wealth, etc. and tells everyone that following Jesus and his prescriptions is the only way to Heaven, and believes that Jesus was wholly human but divinely inspired and that Jesus is the wholly human messiah of the OT; the second is a member of a formal church, cheats on his wife with his secretary, publicly expresses hatred for other groups (and individuals), rips off his suppliers, and believes Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of God. Which of the two is Christian? Why not both, under different definitions?

The word translated as “angel”, “malakh”, means “messenger” – not necessarily divine. (The root of “angel” also means “messenger”, of course.) And even if the messenger is of divine origin, angels in Christianity are also not God. The interesting point wrt the binding of Isaac is that God commands Abraham but an angel stays his hand – angels never bring bad news or instructions. God does that himself.

And you need to read Gen 18 more closely: “22 The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.”

I suppose if you’re determined to retrofit the OT to a Trinity, with some ingenuity, you can do so.

Re: El

The Septuagint translates “El” in Dt 3 and Dt 7 as theos, God. In Dt10, “El” is one of the names of God together with “Adonai” and “Elohim” (appearing as “eloheikhem,” your gods” – elohim being a plural form) And in Job 36:5, the regular translation is “God [El] is mighty”, though the Septuagint has kyrios, Lord. Nehemiah has “El” as “God” as well. Only in Psalm 29 does El not mean God – but there it appears in plural form as “b’ne elim”, translated as “sons of the powerful” – and the interesting point is that “El” is almost always accompanied by some term indicating power or greatness – “El” is the term used for God when stressing his attribute of power.

Note, too, that names of God are not unique. “Adon” means “Lord” and people are addressed thus without any imputing of divinity. “Elohim” also is used for other gods in, e.g., the 10 Commandments, so applying “El” to a non-divine group isn’t proof of anything.

So even from your examples, “El” is God.

(Footnote: in the notorious passage, "and the sons of God saw the daughters of men" - Gen 6:2 - the word for "God" is "elohim", which is sometimes translated as "gods", sometimes as "rulers" and is translated by Rashi as "judges".)

The last time got him convicted of blasphemy – claiming to be God.

Nope. In front of the High Priest he refused to confirm the accusation – “you’re the Messiah, the Son of God”. Instead he says, “so you say” and then calls himself the son of man. He certainly claims a closeness given frequent references to God as his father – but nowhere does he clearly state that he is God – though in John 10 34-35 he suggests that according to J:ewish law anyone who was called, who was divinely inspired, was a god implying in that sense he was a god. (There is no such extant law in Judaism. Either it disappeared – unlikely – or the writer of John is just making up stuff – more likely.) He gets executed by the Romans – not the Jews – for claiming to be a king.

I don’t think we’re going to get any further along in agreement. Have a pleasant weekend and enjoy the Lord’s Day in any way you deem appropriate!

[SRG]

The ???? is actually a smiley - my response is sincere, but repeat editing buggers up formatting.

[ace_m82]

"Which of the two is Christian?"
Neither. A libertarian ought to know a false dichotomy when presented with one. 🙂
Yes, "angel" means messenger.
"angels in Christianity are also not God"
Except the Angel of the LORD speaks as YHWH (actually several times) and YHWH doesn't give his name to others (Isaiah 42:8).
Did you read all the examples? Did you note how it translated to "mighty", "power", or "strong" and it doesn't seem grammatical otherwise (not that I read Hebrew at all)? There's a reason I linked, and that was to save a lot of space.
Regardless, that "el" usually means "god" or "God" isn't in question. It's just that it doesn't always mean that term.
You're being pedantic and you know it. Does Jesus say, "I am YHWH" (which would be a funny thing to say if he said it in Hebrew)? No, we don't have that exact phrasing recorded if he did. Does he say:
"I and the Father are one"
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (Which is literally another way of saying "I am YHWH"!)
To the question: “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
He says “I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Which the entire Sanhedrin recognized as blasphemy, claiming to be God, and a reference to Daniel 7.)
Does he forgive sins, which the experts in the Law knew was claiming to be God? Yes.
Did he allow people to worship him? Several times. This would have been unthinkable for Jews at the time!
So, no, your claim that he didn't say he was YHWH is simply wrong. And, your claim that he didn't claim to be YHWH is in direct contrast to what the best religious leaders of the day concluded. Do you know better than they did?
In conclusion:
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
P.S. He didn't get executed by the Romans for claiming to be a King. He got executed because the religious leaders and elders threatened to riot if Pilate didn't execute him. The man who didn't do anything wrong was executed for the sake of peace. How apt!

[ace_m82]

Coincidentally, this video popped up in my YouTube suggested feed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxftCFJNNfE&list=WL&index=25

[SRG]

I'm not going to respond at length

Did you read all the examples? Did you note how it translated to “mighty”,

Yes I did read all the examples you provided - and responded to them, and El NEVER translates as "mighty". It was followed by words meaning "mighty" or "powerful" but El (singular) itself never translates as that - as I said in my response.

Jesus goes all around the houses in what is obviously rhetorical speech - God is in him and he is in God, which any heterodox preacher might say to let his listeners know he's divinely appointed or inspired, that he has a connection with God, etc. But where does he explicitly say he's God? All he would have to say is, "I am God".

Finally - the Sanhedrin could not legitimately execute Jesus for any breach of Jewish law, and the Romans would not execute Jesus for a breach of Jewish law either. Crucifixion was usually for rebels and claiming to be a king was a crucifiable offence. INRI is your explanation: "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" - and the Jews did not regard Jesus as king. So who did? Do you think that the brutal Pilate would have cared what some rioting Jews might have done, given that he had the manpower and the will to kill as many rioters as he wanted to?

[ace_m82]

"Yes I did read all the examples you provided – and responded to them..."
I gave you an entire link you didn't. Psalm 89:6, Psalm 82:1 ...I can keep going...
"Jesus goes all around the houses in what is obviously rhetorical speech"
You know, when you can find one way to try to work around one example you treat that as if that means nothing else counted. I'm disappointed.
" But where does he explicitly say he’s God? All he would have to say is, 'I am God'."
Answer:
“I and the Father are one”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
To the question: “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
He says “I am..."
Now, if you don't know what "I am" means in the context of this question, read Exodus 3:13-14 (it's YHWH!).
"the Sanhedrin could not legitimately execute Jesus for any breach of Jewish law"
That's a Straw Man. The Sanhedrin condemned him to death without having the authority to do so. They needed Rome's assent and eventually got it. They condemned him to death for blasphemy, claiming to be equal with God! Why do you deny this? It's clearly in the Gospels! If you want to deny what the Gospels say, you may do so, but then you have nothing at all to say about what Jesus did or didn't do.
"Do you think that the brutal Pilate would have cared what some rioting Jews might have done, given that he had the manpower and the will to kill as many rioters as he wanted to?"
Pilate was removed from Governorship in 36 AD. All Governors were on thin ice with Rome if their actions (or inactions) caused riots. Pilate was ultimately removed for using too much force on the Jews, so it's not like it wasn't an effective threat for the religious leaders to riot!
As for the charges, the Romans apparently needed charges to kill someone in such a manner. The Gospels tell us precisely that this was a cop-out, that Pilate didn't actually think Jesus was a threat.
It does always give me a chuckle when people who deny the Gospels' accuracy also pick and choose when they've determined they are an accurate source! Pick a lane!

[TheReEncogitationer]

Thank you for pointing all of this out. I cited your post below in reply to Grinberg's linking of a story on Wheaton College.

[R Mac]

I’m an atheist, bigot.

Edit: I also noticed you never gave an example of Christians IN THIS COUNTRY doing similar things as the link I gave about the cops arresting a young man reading from the bible in the park earlier this week.

But here we have an example of an Islamic country violating rights of a Christian, and you jump up like it validates your point.

[SRG]

Indeed not.

Some Christian groups want evolution to be replaced or have Creationism Intelligent Design taught in HS, pretty much all the pro-lifers are motivated by Christian belief, there was a recent case, unlikely unique, of a felon denied parole because he wouldn't continue with an obligatory Christian-based substance-abuse workshop. But none of this is remotely like what the Egyptians do here or what other Muslim countries regularly do "in defence of Islam". The Philadelphia Bible Riots were 180 years ago...

[R Mac]

Advocating for certain subjects to be taught in school =\= arresting people for expressing religious beliefs. They’re not even similar.

As I said, I’m an atheist pro-lifer, and I’m not really concerned with what percentage of pro-lifers are religious. Because I’m not a bigot.

I’m aware that a lot of substance abuse programs involve acknowledging a higher power, Christianity probably the most common, but getting a lesser sentence for a different crime is different than being prosecuted for religious beliefs in the first place.

And I’d need a cite about a specific case to know that there wasn’t alternative treatment options that didn’t involve Christianity. My experience (not as a convict) is that orders of substance abuse don’t specify who provides treatment, and that there are different options for getting treatment.

Besides, drugs should be legal, so I think it’s more a government problem than a religious problem in the first place.

[R Mac]

And for the record, this is the video of the Christian kid getting arrested for reading reading scripture at a park in Wisconsin that Reencog responded to by saying Christian nationalists in this country are just as bad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVTvlvfx4g

It’s why I call him out as an ignorant anti-religious bigot who has delusions of the threat of Christian nationalists in this country.

[TheReEncogitationer]

What I said was that Christian Nationalists do far more than just preach on public sidewalks and in publIc parks. You must be as illiterate as Mohammed was.

[SRG]

Here's the instant case: https://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/atheist-inmates-victory-judge-rules-against-forced-religious-rehab

Advocating for certain subjects to be taught in school =\= arresting people for expressing religious beliefs. They’re not even similar.

True - I was just pointing out that while there clearly are religious extremists they're not at all at the level of the Egyptians here.

But the case of the arrest looks more like "arresting someone for pissing off the group inside" than specifically for his religious advocacy. If he had been standing in another park doing the same thing but where there was no LGBT event, would he have been arrested? I doubt it.

And while they represent a very small fraction of Christian nationalists, there are indeed some violent men amongst them, including most saliently, Robert Bowers.

[R Mac]

“If he had been standing in another park doing the same thing but where there was no LGBT event, would he have been arrested? I doubt it.”

Yeah, this is the problem here.

Or should counter-protesters be arrested?

[SRG]

Or should counter-protesters be arrested?

Generally not, but the police tend not to agree. I think they arrest first and ask questions later.

[TheReEncogitationer]

Ackshuyally, there is an element of coercion in all of the aforementioned acts you mentioned. Teaching "Intelligent Design" in Gummint Skoolz with captive taxpayers and captive student audiences is coercive. Ditto with compelling Twelve-Step indoctrination as a condition of criminal sentencing., something I might add only done with DUIs and drug offenders but not done with robbers, molesters, rapists, and murderers.

Granted, these aren't the same as imprisoning and torturing someone for so-called "misinformation" on religion persecution, but they are State-initiated coercion in the name of religion all the same.

[TheReEncogitationer]

And if you recall, I defended those U.S. Christians' right to any freedom of expression that does not violate the rights of others, Dummy.

Sanford Dummy Reel
https://youtu.be/moYdbNXBwvk

[Ed Grinberg]

this treatment of Patrick Zaki comes from fellow believers in your same Abrahamic God.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/02/08/wheaton-illinois-and-professor-it-moved-fire-reach-agreement-her-resign
Wheaton College...announced...that it has reached an agreement to "part ways" with Larycia Hawkins, an associate professor of political science whom it has been trying to fire.
...Wheaton [is] a prominent college in Christian higher education...
The statement...says that "both parties share a commitment to care for the oppressed and the marginalized, including those who are marginalized because of their religious beliefs, and to respectful dialogue with people of other faiths or no faith."
Supporters of Hawkins say that it was just that commitment that landed her in trouble, and that led Wheaton to argue she was violating the Statement of Faith all faculty members at the college must support.
In December, Hawkins announced that she would wear a hijab during Advent to show solidarity with Muslims at a time when some politicians were using anti-Muslim rhetoric. The college has said that the act of wearing the hijab was not the issue. Rather it was a statement by Hawkins that Muslims "worship the same God" as do Christians. Theologians are divided on that point, and many supporters of Wheaton disagree with [Hawkins's] statement. In a December statement, Wheaton rejected the idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

[TheReEncogitationer]

Ah, but as SRG alluded to above, Al-Qu'ran cribbed quite a bit of the stories and characters from The Torah and Christian scrptures. Presumably, this included the basic "Omni" attributes of the single God worshipped in these texts.

Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, also syncretized Monotheism, angels, devils, and the eternal battle between Good and Evil from Zoroastrian ideas and also incorporated some Pre-Monotheistic Pagan ways from the region.

The big parts where Islam parts ways with the other two Abrahamic faiths is in whether God had a son on Earth and in who was the last and greatest Prophet of God, as well as accounts of the acts of both God and Jesus. For example, Al-Qu'ran told that Jesus went to Heaven without dying and that an impostor died on the cross in his stead.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

three years in prison after finding him guilty of "spreading false news"

Poor bastard never had a chance, facing this judge.

[Dillinger]

who knew Jack Smith was Egyptian?

[SRG]

___________________

[TheReEncogitationer]

?

[Vernon Depner]

So, was he spreading false news or not? Reason never gives the whole story in these brickbats.

[Roberta]

Can’t tell from the BBC article Mr. Oliver referenced. It’s very frustrating when the key point of the article is unsubstantiated. Could it be that he was never a Copt, and therefore lying about it?

Copt-out!

[TheReEncogitationer]

If Patrick Zaki was spreading false news about the status of Coptic Christians in Egypt, it would only deserve the point-and-laugh or the-boy-who-cried-wolf response, not 3 years imprisonment in Egypt, where torture is present and even prevalent in prisons.

And Egypt is regarded supposedly as a "moderate" Islamic nation and an "ally" by U.S. foreign policy? What the Hell are our policy-makers thinking???

[BillyG]

What the Hell are our policy-makers thinking???

Realpolitik. Egypt controls Suez access. This is a strategic resource. Keeping on good terms with Egypt is critical. It also gives some influence over Egypt. Would you prefer Egypt as an ally of China or Russia instead? And don't think our policy makers are good tow shoes either. US gov has caused a lot of bloodshed in South America.

[TheReEncogitationer]

I learned something new the other day: Petroleum is not so much a fossil fuel but a fuel made from plankton, the same stuff that grows whales to a hundred tons or more at biggest. Potentially, every square inch of Earth could have petroleum underneath it with sufficient vertical and horizontal drilling and fracking.

A real version of Realpolitk would acknowledge this reality, support "Drill, Baby, Drill," and tell Egypt, the oil-rich Islamic nations, all of OPEC, plus China and Russia, to go pound sand, stomp the briny deep, punch air, and just go screw.

And speaking of South America, that would include Venezuela. A U.S. that's got it's own doesn't need colonialism and political intrigue.

[TheReEncogitationer]

An added note about Patrick Zaki from the BBC story with a point worth noting:

Patrick Zaki had been studying for a master's degree in Gender and Women's Studies at the University of Bologna when he decided to return to Egypt for a short family visit in February 2020.

Although many things taught in Gender and Women's Studies are irrational and translate to coercive Statist policies that Libertarians should fight, mere studying and peacefully expressing these ideas should not be a crime either. Communists, Socialists, Fascists, and Nazis have these rights and Wokesters have that right too, up until any of them initiate coercion.

[Vernon Depner]

Coercion is a founding principle of leftism. You can assume all of them advocate coercion.

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