Taxpayers Pony Up for Transit Systems They'll Never Use
The median resident of Southern California takes zero transit trips annually, and only 2 percent of the region's population frequently uses mass transit.
The last time I considered using public transit was in San Francisco last month, where I dreaded the thought of climbing up the long incline from Chinatown to Nob Hill. I decided to make the calorie-burning trek on foot after realizing I needed to pre-purchase my ticket on the touristy cable car. I can't recall the last time I actually took transit. When is the last time you hopped on a bus or light-rail line to get to work or anywhere at all?
If your answer also is "years ago," then we're in good company. The Southern California Association of Governments found the "median" resident of SCAG's six counties (Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, Ventura, and Imperial) made zero transit trips in a year. The "average" resident made 35 annual transit trips, which isn't impressive given I made six trips in my truck and motorcycle yesterday.
SCAG finds only 2 percent of the region's population uses transit "very frequently" and that's concentrated among the poorest residents. That's not to say transit isn't important. It makes sense in urban centers, for certain commutes (think Metrolink) and, again, as a last resort for people who can't afford cars. Those SCAG numbers come from 2018—before the pandemic, which caused ridership to plummet. It's only recovered moderately.
Yet before Monday's budget deal, transit supporters were predicting doom if Gov. Gavin Newsom didn't agree to bail out these systems. He resisted for months, but finally agreed to a $5.1-billion package that provides additional operating subsidies and construction dollars. That spares transit systems from facing difficult choices regarding which lines to keep operating, which projects to fund and which departments to trim. Perish the thought.
"Like many public transportation systems around the country, some of California's transit agencies are reeling from pandemic-induced declines in ridership and the risk that federal COVID aid will dry up," wrote Farhad Manjoo in a New York Times op-ed backing a California bailout. "Transit agencies are preparing to adjust their budgets and services to new travel patterns, but implementing those plans will take time – and in the short term they are pretty strapped."
Oh, please. Transit agencies were struggling long before anyone had heard of COVID-19. Ridership levels in almost every major transit system nationwide had been plunging for two decades. The agencies have had plenty of time to adjust to reality, but have not used it to develop new business models that appeal to riders. They haven't even turned the corner on transit crime waves that literally scare off riders.
Instead of cutting superfluous bureaus or staff, reducing compensation (or at least reforming benefit packages), outsourcing contracts and adjusting routes, or trying innovative solutions (smaller buses, privatized alternatives), they've continued to offer these services in an antiquated way. Transportation planners are heavily invested in prodding Californians to give up their cars and use transit, yet they don't offer systems that are reliable or appealing.
Instead, they offer the banal choice of more public money or fewer routes, which leads to transit boosters' concerns about a "death spiral." If people aren't taking transit now, even fewer will take transit if it cuts service, which leads to even fewer riders and lower revenues, and then further cuts. Rinse and repeat. How long before the state's transit agencies will burn through their coming cash infusion and then start lobbying for even more subsidies?
As I noted in my new short book, "Putting Customers First," the state's major transportation agencies focus on a variety of social concerns ranging from "equity platforms" to promoting affordable housing. The Caltrans future blueprint is more about battling greenhouse-gas emissions than creating bus systems that arrive on time and freeways that are less congested. It's a long mish-mash of politically correct goals, bolstered by legislation that treats customer concerns as a side issue.
Sure, effective transportation can boost equity, encourage housing creation and fight climate change—but it will do so with fewer costly internal bureaucracies and a razor focus on improving transit offerings. By dumping more money into current systems without any mandate for change, we only get more inanity—e.g., "road diets" that increase congestion by reducing the number of traffic lanes in a silly quest to prod us into abandoning our cars.
Newsom promised that the bailout deal features new "accountability" measures in exchange for the extra money, but the details haven't been forthcoming. In my experience, spending proposals always promise new oversight and accountability measures to provide political cover for lawmakers who are reticent about loosening the purse strings. After the spending bill passes, those measures prove ephemeral. They might result in a toothless commission or useless future report.
In the meantime, transit service gets drearier for the few Californians who rely on it. The rest of us just continue to bypass the systems altogether, dealing with the ever-worsening roadways however we can.
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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Is the author suggesting those behind this had a loco motive?
They’re choo-choo for coal-coal puffs.
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I can follow that train of thought.
You’re able to track this?
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And Chumby keeps chugging along…
As does sarc.
These comments have gone off the rails.
Here in Florida we have a brand new higher speed train.
Built entirely with private money it goes about 100 miles an hour.
It goes from Miami to Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and then to Orlando.
So if you live here and are going to Orlando it’s actually a great way to get there.
If you are a tourist you can see both Miami and Orlando on your trip without having to rent a car.
I go to Miami from West Palm Beach once a month, but I never ride this train because they have metal detectors and won’t let you bring your concealed carry pistol.
And I’m not going anywhere, especially Miami, without my gun
One way or another with lefties, it always leads to trains.
Nothing says “the future” like 1800’s technology.
Steam energy is clean energy! (Just ignore the coal and wood burned to generate that clean energy.)
Wood burning is carbon neutral.
Exactly as well as locally harvested and sustainable.
You know who else wanted to put people on trains?
Mister Rogers?
Casey Jones?
Amusement parks (miniature trains)?
guys that make porno films?
When is the last time you hopped on a bus or light-rail line to get to work or anywhere at all?
The last time I was in Berlin. Which has the density to support it. Unlike Albuquerque.
And yet Albuquerque worships a sky tram…
I think the tram manages to pay its own bills as a tourist thing… and if you want, you can still drive up the back side of the mountain. And it is kind of a cool trip every couple of years.
The stupid-assed bus system on the other hand, and particularly the egregious abortion of city planning that was the “Albuquerque Rapid Transit (ART) System” — which required ripping two lanes out of the main drag through town, Central Ave, part of historic Route 66 — has nearly no ridership at all. And serves primarily as a hobo shuttle.
If they get a tram, that could attract pro sports teams to the area so they can erect a tax payer funded sportsballtorium.
I would laugh my ass off if we built a stadium at the terminus if the Team, since it’s at 10,500 feet… I’m guessing not many sportsball players would be accustomed to that. Hell, not even ours!
Ugh. “Tram”, not “Team”. Stupid autodefect.
monorail…monorail…monorail…monorail
Mono-D’Oh!
Las Vegas got a monorail. But it doesn’t go to the airport, because reasons.
Taxi driver unions?
Do trains in Germany, though, even break even?
Honest question. Because if they do not, then mass train transportation is a money sink at best.
I know in the US trains do not run at a profit. Even in major cities.
Read Romance of the Rails. It’s a fascinating account of passenger rail in the US, mostly urban and suburban boondoggles. Every step of the way, from horse-drawn rail cars to the modern variety, is first reviled, taxed, and outright banned, then grudgingly accepted, then subsidized and defended against the next stage, rinse, repeat ad infinitum. Not a single one has ever turned a profit once the government stuck their fingers in the pie.
One recommendation in its favor: one place I posted this attracted the attention of a greenie whose only criticism was it being written by a paid propagandist for Big Oil. Not a single fact rebutted, let alone refuted. Nothing but repeating that the author was a shill for Big Oil. I figure it must be good if it hit such a parochial nerve, really on target.
As for whether German or any other passenger trains break even, I seriously doubt it, otherwise they wouldn’t need government support and private car restrictions to stay in operation.
Do roads break even?
Ever thought of that?
The answer is an emphatic NO. But no one ever fixates on the fact that all the car drivers are SUBSIDIZED to billions a year.
Inconvenient fact for you lot.
Inconvenient fact for everybody, but especially parasites like you, is that fuel taxes used to pay for roads until bicycles, buses, trains, and pedestrians began siphoning away the money.
What you have just said is not remotely close to true. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having seen it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.
Bullshit. Name the subsidies, if such subsidies exist.
All the legislation from at least 2006 to now – totaling at least $270 billion since then – that transfers general revenue to the Highway Trust Fund to keep it solvent. That’s only a bit smaller than the federal gas taxes – so the gas tax is paying less than half on just interstate maintenance. All federal gas taxes go into that and ONLY cover maintenance (not construction) on interstates and national highways.
The purpose of the gas tax is to create an entitlement mentality in the minds of car drivers that the roads belong to them and only to them.
IDK about particular states but I am 100% certain that state taxes are nowhere near enough to cover all the non-interstate mileage. Federal mileage (which would also include anything on res, parks, etc) is roughly 6% of total paved road mileage. Which would in a typical state thus require about 18.4c * 16 = $2.94 in state taxes per gallon. You paying that? Didn’t think so.
The Interstate Highways are a DOD project.
JFree is a steaming pile of ignorant lefty shit:
“All the legislation from at least 2006 to now – totaling at least $270 billion since then – that transfers general revenue to the Highway Trust Fund to keep it solvent. That’s only a bit smaller than the federal gas taxes – so the gas tax is paying less than half on just interstate maintenance….”
Now tell us how much of the gas taxes have been diverted to bike paths, trollies and the like.
Further, please explain how a good, paid for by taxes on those who benefit, amounts to a “subsidy”, chicken little. Note how food gets to groceries, bought by nearly everyone, including those who don’t pay taxes (speaking of “subsidies”).
Oh, and then, please fuck off and die.
Anybody who buys groceries (or any other product transported by road) is paying road taxes, albeit indirectly. I’m pretty sure the cost of transportation, including fuel taxes, is baked into the final retail price.
Here’s one. The Federal Highway Administration diverts 2.86 cents per gallon of the 18.4-cent per gallon federal gas tax paid by drivers to fund the “Mass Transit Account“. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Significant other portions of the other 15.44 cents that goes into the (misnamed) “Highway Account” is routinely pissed away on billion dollar transit boondoggles that have no benefits to drivers.
In 2020, $7.3 billion was diverted to the Mass Transit Account. Untold billions more were diverted via feel-good but ultimately shell game programs like CMAQ.
Here’s another inconvenient truth. There is no such thing as a transit tax. Transit users pay zero taxes into any transit fund by virtue of their use of transit. People who drive pay more for transit than people who use transit.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/fastact/factsheets/htffs.cfm
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2021/hdf.cfm
“What you have just said is not remotely close to true. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having seen it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.”
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Sad when you have to plagiarize your insults.
Yes I know but couldn’t resist.
Especially since it’s pretty obvious that a whole bunch of people believe this.
Because it’s true, asshole.
and EV’s
How many people use the roads vs. rail?
With rail, spending so much on something that is used little makes little sense.
Fuel taxes are paid to take care of them.
Bike riders and pedestrians, however, ARE subsidized in using them.
Quite frankly, as are EV’s.
That won’t last. Expect user fees for EVs very soon.
About half the states, maybe even over half, do charge a fee to EV users to compensate for not paying the fuel tax (which goes to road infrastructure). Not sure if it is equitable anywhere/everywhere that does it.
User taxes versus road expenditures in your state:
https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/
Apparently, that guy was right when he said the State was that great fiction whereby everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else.
Most people drive cars though. Very few people take transit.
Actually roads are PROFIT centers for the entire USA. Your question is actually absurd on its face.
Imagine no major hi ways in the USA. Imagine all two lane roads and then think of the GROSS DAILY PRODUCT being moved in the USA.
Most of the country runs its road system on a tax on fuel. It used to be small percentage, but is getting larger and larger (especially with the advent of EV’s). Some places like CA have gasoline taxes that exceed the cost of the gasoline by over 100%. those places use that $$ for things like transit that is not efficient nor used by the masses. It is THEFT.
Gas taxes and user fees pay for only 60% of road construction and maintenance in California.
You’re missing the point: Roads are a benefit to all. They are the way food gets to markets and they facilitate most all trade (even Amazon – how’s that widget get to you).
And those directly benefiting (drivers) are paying (your claim) 60% of that; those same and everyone else is supporting them by general taxation.
Wish all of our taxes worked out so well.
Honestly, I have no idea. All I can say is that it’s the first public transit system I’ve ever used that was actually practical for getting around.
I’d guess that it might, if only because Berlin is such a terrible city to own a car in. Even driving a rental there is unpleasant. But I also wouldn’t be shocked if the transit was supported by some of the egregious taxes they pay, either.
*shrug*
I’m not even sure if I could find accurate numbers for the whole thing.
Yes, they do.
Source: Got stuck for 2 extra hours on a train to Munich once.
Granted, my sample size for this study isn’t large, so it might be an “All Indians walk single file. At least the one I saw did” situation. But it has happened at least one time.
You don’t understand. When California and other states go all EV and the electric grid doesn’t support the EV’s you won’t have any choice but to use mass transit. They do have an end goal.
Hmm ok. I took mass transit from San Francisco Air Port to Campbell CA. I have driven that many times in about 35-40 minutes with low traffic. On transit it took me about FOUR hours to take transit. That delivered me within a 7 minute drive or a 1.5 hour walk with luggage from Los Gatos my final destination (so I was picked up by family which caused about 1/3-1/2 gallon of fuel wasted by them as well as their time). The cost was insanely high as well. The cost of gasoline would have been under 8 dollars at the time for the entire one way trip. It was at least 4 or 5 times that amount on transit. And that is After the subsidies!!
It’s funny how when you design a society around cars that trains are harder to compete with it.
Funny that.
Read Romance of the Rails, and you will find this fascination with tax-sucking light rail goes back well before cars were invented.
Look at a few budgets and you will discover there isn’t a chance in hell of any light rail system ever being self-supporting.
Again, read Romance of the Rails and you will discover that light rail was always meant for the middle class, not the working class, and tax subsidies made it the worst of both worlds.
“Read Romance of the Rails…”
Shitfordinner reads BOOKS?
The sparse nature of population across this land started before the car existed. What you are taking a dig at is personal transportation. Back then it was horses and wagons.
Maybe you should wonder why people are willing to pay as much as $5,000 a year on cars.
Then we will make them use it buy raising energy and vehicle prices – democrats.
Sorry we can’t all be hopeless stupid and unconcerned about climate change but some of us are trying to not fuck over the people coming after us. Heaven forbid.
The national debt is what, exactly?
Let’s spend MORE on boondoggles. Would hate to fuck over future generations and all.
Clearly, someone fucked over your head.
Then what are you doing on the internet? It consumes vast amounts of energy and scarce minerals.
Why don’t you just use your usual handle, Jeffy? What are you hiding from with this shitberry sock?
Worrying about climate change is stupid. The insane millennial doomsday cult that’s been promoting it — and getting it wrong — for fifty years has been nothing but lying propaganda the whole time.
Destroying modern civilization to stave it off is a fools game, and really shucks the rind off the watermelon, leaving only the red interior behind. Commies need to fuck off and die, and not try to take everyone with them.
It is OVER 60 years now, not 50 years. At first we were told that we were moving to an entire Northern Hemisphere ICE AGE and would not be able to make food or stay warm in winter in 80+% of the USA.
Well that didn’t pan out so they decided that we were going into “global warming”. Then that didn’t pan out so they decided that we are going into “climate change”.
Bottom line, the temperatures today across the globe are not outside of any statistical norm geologically speaking. Consider that accurate recorded temperatures have been going on for less than 250 years, actually mostly from WW1 on (110 years or so, prior to that there were too many thermal measuring systems and very little accuracy available.). According to “science” the earth is BILLIONS of years old. So we have what less than 1 trillionth of a second of data in in one day and think science actually knows anything? B.S. But we know that 3000 years ago the Arabian desert valleys were some of the RICHEST land in the world and are now sand. We found the river beds under the sand now.
Yes, we have climate change, the earth always has had. Someone created a map of how much area it would take to provide all the electricity needed for the entire globe in photovoltaic systems. It was a tiny square on the African continent, FAR Less than 1% of the land area of the globe. Not sure if they were correct, but less than 1% of the land mass means that our fuel usage is irrelevant compared to solar variation!
^ 1 And counting’
Raspberry, are you currently carbon neutral?
Does a zero IQ count?
Nah. You’re stupid but concerned all on your own. How many billions have been spent on it now?
Do you think the politicians promising to “deal with” climate change are concerned about it? If they were, would they still be driving giant SUVs, flying private jets, and buying seaside homes?
But think of the good union jobs it’ll create. Construction. Operation. Maintenance. Administration. Bagmen.
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Meanwhile, moonbeam’s choo-choo; the boondoggle that just won’t die:
“California’s high-speed rail is running out of money, but progress has been made”
[…]
“In 2008, California voted yes on a $9 billion bond authorization to build the nation’s first high-speed railway. The plan is to construct an electric train that will connect Los Angeles with the Central Valley and then San Francisco in two hours and 40 minutes.
But 15 years later, there is not a single mile of track laid, and executives involved say there isn’t enough money to finish the project. The latest estimates from the California High-Speed Rail Authority suggest it will cost between $88 billion and $128 billion to complete the entire system from LA to San Francisco. Inflation and higher construction costs have contributed to the high price tag…”
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/17/why-californias-high-speed-rail-is-taking-so-long-to-complete.html
The ‘high price tag’ was there from day one; the lying politicos contributed to the claim it was going to be cheaper.
I remember when the proposition was announced. It was so obviously a pack of lies and bad predictions. I think it predicted so many passenger trips between SF and LA that either there would have to be thousands of daily commuters between the two, or every person in the state would have to ride it 5-10 times a year. It would have required fully loaded trains leaving and arriving every 5 minutes. God help them if any ever had a malfunction and the next train couldn’t stop in time.
And 2:40 for a round trip? The first 60 miles south of SF is suburbia; it would need to be elevated or tunneled the entire way to avoid hundreds of grade crossings, and nobody within a mile would put up with the racket and danger of so many trains at 150 mph. The first 50-100 miles north of LA involves the Grapevine, too steep for steel tires on steel rails, necessitating a huge long tunnel.
The thing was so obviously impossible. I thought not even Californians could be so stupid as to believe any of it. Yet here it is, the nothing train to nowhere from nowhere on missing rails, still sucking up money.
“The thing was so obviously impossible. I thought not even Californians could be so stupid as to believe any of it.”
In related news, enough EV charging stations and electricity to support them are going to magically appear by 2030.
Right? Right?
There already are thousands of daily commuters between LA and SF. They fly on Southwest.
And not just taxpayers. If you use the Pennsylvania Turnpike (and extensions), then you pay for SEPTA directly. Act 44 of 2009 requires the PTC to fork over money to PennDOT so that PennDOT can fund highways, bridges, and public transit. Now, Pennsylvania has some of the highest fuel taxes in the US, so that PTC money mostly all goes to public transit in the state, $450 million annually, recently reduced to $50 million (see below).
https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/investor-relations/act-44-plan
Act 44 required the PTC to provide PennDOT with $450 million annually for highways, bridges, and public transit, with Act 89 of 2013 modifying the payments to dedicate the full amount to public transit. Beginning in 2022, PTC payments to PennDOT for transit have been reduced to $50 million. In addition to the PTC’s contribution of $50 million annually, another $450 million will be provided from the state’s General Fund to be used for statewide public transit projects.
As a result of the financial burden of Act 44, the PTC has been forced to raise toll rates for 13 straight years and the agency’s debt levels have risen to nearly $14 billion. While the PTC’s annual Act 44 obligation has been reduced from $450 million to $50 million, beginning in July 2022, the Commission will be required to continue to raise tolls through at least 2051 as a result of the debt previously issued to fund its Act 44 obligations from 2007 through 2022. With the reduction in its Act 44 obligations, the PTC will accelerate its capital reinvestment into its system through its capital budget after 15 years of reduced capital investments cause by Act 44.
SETPA in Philly where I would argue a good 1/4 of the state GDP comes from? That SEPTA?
Heaven forbid the places contributing the MOST to the state get their just dues.
Wanna stop paying? Fine. Let Philly taxes stay in Philly and then go enjoy your desert wasteland outside of it.
Sounds like a plan. Where does this suburbanite sign on?
I don’t pay it as I avoid using the Pennsylvania Turnpike when heading east, Jeffy. Fuck them and fuck SEPTA.
Let Philly taxes stay in Philly and then go enjoy your desert wasteland outside of it.
You mean the farmland that feeds Philly? And every other urban cesspool?
I mean, I live in a desert wasteland, but I’ve driven through lots and lots and lots of PA, (and, unfortunately, Philly) and I can definitively say that PS doesn’t even approach “desert wasteland”.
Raspie has said a lot of dumb shit here, but that was particularly dumb.
Raspberry, check out the YouTube videos of Kensington Avenue in Philly. Then look at Amish farms in Lancaster County. Which do you prefer?
You have to do actual work on an Amish farm, so……
You missed where our former Governor Ed Rendell took money from the PTC to fund the pension obligations of the State Police. Both the gas tax and the turnpike funds are treated like the Democrats piggy banks. This let’s them make payoffs to Philly and Pittsburgh so that they get re-elected.
Avoid the Kensington Avenue station.
Boy this article was written by a complete fucking idiot, I can tell you that.
And sure, let me know the next time about the shit I’ll never use in half the states in this country that continue to take far, far more dollars than they ever put in.
Let’s fix that bullshit then we can work on your transit “arguments” which are specious at best and downright fucking stupid at worst.
What is so bullshit about transit arguments?
They violate The Narrative.
I love the constant progressive demand to do away with Social Security. Given how many northerners retire to FL, that is a large chunk of the “der, they don’t pay their fair share” arguments.
i oppose all government funded transportation. it is not the role of government. and in almost all cases the transportation system is used by a very, very small percentage of the population. so the majority always ends of paying for some small number of people’s transportation and an extremally elevation cost.
The cable cars aren’t mass transit. They are a quaint little tourist attraction.
Be patient. As soon as internal combustion automobiles are outlawed and electric car and electricity prices soar out of sight of regular people, the trains and buses will be full and only the power elite will enjoy personal transportation.
Many trains have already been electrified – they ain’t running either.
In your 15-minute neighborhood, you will own nothing and be happy.
They will put solar panels on the train roofs. Batteries for the tunnels.
/Sarc
Which might elevate the frequency of roadside bombs? If the bad guys are isolated, they’re easier targets. In Theory. This is just a thought experiment.
It would be tragic if it had to come to that.
Americans don’t have the balls for it to come to that. They will march quietly into the incinerators before fighting back.
Maybe not all Americans, but there is a substantial number of people who might just need a little nudge. A lot of pissed off people are getting tired of all the endless and creeping regulations, restrictions, usurpations, etc.
when I lived in OC it was top-down & tops-off every day why would anyone get on a bus?
This article is just more evidence that Californians (in this case the author) should be completely ignored re every opinion they might have on anything. Of course the things they choose to do will fail. Duh.
This post is a reminder that the chick-little JFree should be ignored everywhere and always.
He is full of shit.
Hear, hear! “Death Spirals” for public transit and high-density urban centers! Bring it on. It says something important that even poor people would rather waste money on personal vehicles and hours stuck in traffic than risk taking a train or a bus. I honestly investigated taking the bus to work instead of taking my own vehicle on the half-hour drive (unless a ten-mile-per-hour farm tractor or a school bus or a coal train at the one train crossing halts my progress) and found out that, in addition to the ten minute walk down the hill to the bus route and the fifteen minute walk back up the hill to my house (in the rain or snow or 80 degree heat) I would have a ten minute wait to transfer to the second bus, followed by another ten minute wait to transfer to the third bus for a total of one hour and thirty-five minutes from my house to work! I didn’t even bother to check the bus commute home. Since most of the expense of driving to and from work is buying and maintaining the vehicle; and since I’m going to own a vehicle anyway; saving the cost of fuel and additional mileage doesn’t even come close to making it worthwhile to take the bus.
Back in the days when we still wanted to go to Seattle occasionally, we investigated driving to the train station and taking the Sounder instead of driving. It turned out that there were two options down and two options back, neither of which were at convenient times; and which dropped us off miles from where we might want to go when we got there.
On the other hand, the private option of taking the Airporter Shuttle to Seatac Airport when I want to fly somewhere is terrific! I drive to the pickup spot, catch the bus, sit comfortably and entertain myself for however long it takes and regardless of traffic jams, and get off right where I need to be to check in. Long live private options!
When they try to sell you transit, there’s always a direct train from your house to your office.
Reality is what you saw: lots of walking, lots of waiting, slow trains (because even fast trains are slow when they have to make stops for riders), inconvenient schedules, and multiple transfers.
I love it, let it burn.
Departments of Transportation across the US despise (or at least look down on) Americans. They design and build systems for idealized utopian people they wish existed.
The New Soviet Man.
Top Trans Men
The systems are designed and built to create more public employee union jobs, meaning more campaign contributions to Democrats.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
People riding the train isn’t the point. The point is shoveling money to contractors so the politicians can get kick backs, and creating lots of public employee union jobs so they can donate to the Dems.
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I’ve never met a government agency which claimed they had enough staff or enough money. It’s always (and I mean ALWAYS) “we’re short-staffed”… “we’re under-funded”…
In 1915, the civil engineers in Los Angeles did a comprehensive study of all the existing rapid transit lines in the US and Europe and then explained the topographical and financials reasons that rapid mass (Intra-urban) transit was impossible for Los Angeles. https://bit.ly/3MqJYM3 1915 Study of Street Traffic Condition in the City of Los Angeles
Long story short: For fixed rail (subways or light rail), there has to be a station within 1/2 mile of each home and each business. In huge circular area like Los Angeles, it is mathematically impossible to have a station within 1/2 miles once gets even 5 miles from the center. Thus, the system is unable to serve even 5% of the population and then it can cover about only 2% of the city — a few blocks on either side of subway line. subways are worthless for the most part and the idea it helps poor get to jobs is simply false. There are very few jobs within 1/2 mile of home and 1/2 miles of the office. Thus, in 1915, it was easy to see that except for buses, a rapid mass transit system could never serve the city and could never pay for itself.
Buses are OK provided the city does not become too dense. The more density, the mroe raffic congestion and teh slower the buses. Buses, however, do not require separate roads and thus as long as a city is not too dense, buses do OK. Los Angeles, contrary to popular misconception, is the most dense and crowded urban area. Developers falsely claims that TODs (Transit Oriented District, small areas with super tall desne housing) will make mass transit financially viable. No. It does not because anyone who can afford to live in one of those units will drive a car. The main users of the subway are the crime in ally insane homeless. An LAPD cop even had a finger bitten off!
The LA area has spend hundreds of billions subways and fixed rail and fewer people ride today than back in the 1980’s. The only reason the city and county spend money is simple corruption. LA is far more corrupt than Chicago was in Capone’s time. That’s why there is mass exodus of Millennials and Gen Zers.
Hey, the purpose of taxation and spending is to buy the stuff desired by elites, mostly for others to use, so our pajama class can feel all good about themselves.
Mass Transit is a money pit that needs to be abandoned.
Crony Socialism alive and well in the Commie-CA.
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Mass transit is more energy efficient than private transit. Consider a bus, even a gas burning bus carrying 50. Compare to 50 private vehicles, even 50 private electric vehicles. Energy efficiency is on the side of the bus and other forms of mass transit.
How will I get my boat to the lake on the bus?
Urban people have no idea how rural people use automobiles. That’s why city people believe the “self driving” fantasy.
“How will I get my boat to the lake on the bus?”
My boat? I don’t think you’ve grasped the concept of mass transit. The mass transit vehicle isn’t owned by the passengers. Think air travel. We travel by air routinely en mass rather than individually and we don’t own the aircraft. Mass transit is more energy efficient than individual transit. That’s what counts in the end, how to get the most of the energy we expend.
“Urban people have no idea how rural people use automobiles.”
Rural people have even less idea about urban people. They believe that urban people believe in the self driving fantasy. I shit you not.
“what counts in the end” is being able to get where you want to go when you want to go. The automobile solves that. Mass transit does not.
“The automobile solves that. ”
Except where it doesn’t, which is presumably why you have a boat or fly. Autos will always have a role to play, but they will never be as energy efficient as mass transit, even if those autos are electric. It’s a matter of getting the most use for a quantity of energy expended. You will not be able to dictate the exact times or destinations when using mass transit because you don’t own or operate the vehicle. That’s the sacrifice we are to make on the altar of energy efficiency. You’re not an idiot so you must realize all this without me having to tell you.
On the other hand, you ARE an idiot, and so you waste time elucidating the obvious while missing the point.
I’m not sure what your point is besides a dislike of mass transit and bumpkinish views on the beliefs of city folk.
Given the number of cars on the road, most people prefer to sacrifice energy efficiency on the altar of convenience.
Given the trillion plus the government has invested in the road network, and government subsidies and bailouts to auto makers and oil producers, it’s not surprising. Question the commenters here and they will tell you they have no choice but to use cars, as there is no practical alternative. They celebrate this lack of choice as ‘freedom.’
they will tell you they have no choice
So, I’ll ask again—how will I get my boat to the lake on the bus?
“So, I’ll ask again—how will I get my boat to the lake on the bus?”
You think you have a choice? I just explained how you don’t. You need a recap?
I need you to explain how I get my boat to the lake without an automobile.
“I need you to explain how I get my boat to the lake without an automobile.”
My advice: do what you normally do when you have to get the boat to the lake without an automobile.
Rent an automobile, I guess? Not sure how else you’d do it.
Obviously, the ridership of mass transit could not care less about energy efficiency. The problem is, in places that have buses, the ridership is not even 50% because the only questions they have are: how far do I have to walk or ride a bicycle through the snow and ice or heavy rain or 95 degree heat to get to where I can catch the bus; how long do I have to wait for it when I get there or to transfer to another bus; how often does it run and how often does it make me late; how often do the union thugs go on strike and leave me without a way to get to work; and how does all that compare to my alternative of driving my own vehicle to work? If the answer is, “Meh!” then you get buses and trains to nowhere transiting empty. Any idiot can multiply the number of buses by the maximum number of passengers and fantasize about how much better mass transit would be. By the time you find out that reality didn’t match your fantasy, you’ve spent trillions of dollars on a useless boondoggle.
“because the only questions they have are: how far do I have to walk or ride a bicycle through the snow and ice or heavy rain or 95 degree heat to get to where I can catch the bus; how long do I have to wait for it when I get there or to transfer to another bus; how often does it run and how often does it make me late; how often do the union thugs go on strike and leave me without a way to get to work; and how does all that compare to my alternative of driving my own vehicle to work?”
There’s more than one answer to these questions. Some transit systems are better than others. And even in the best, there are things I’m sure you’d find fault with. The Seoul subway system is safe. convenient, cheap, fast and punctual. The stink of kimchi and stale tobacco at rush hour can be pretty oppressive, however.
“the ridership of mass transit could not care less about energy efficiency. ”
That goes doubly so for those who choose individual transport.
If you want to get from Tucson to Salt Lake City, which is the more efficient vehicle to take: an automobile or a container ship?
I don’t want to get from Tucson to Salt Lake City. Ask someone who does. I commented to point out the superior energy efficiency of mass transport over individual. This will increasingly become the important consideration in transportation and other planning, like home heating and cooling etc if we are serious about carbon emissions. How to get the most out of the energy we expend. You’ll doubtless come around to this as prices for fossil fuels rise.
So far over your head you don’t even hear the “whoosh”.
I thought you were capable of responding with substance. Your responses are inane and boring and I am happy not to hear your whooshes.
OK, I’ll spoon-feed you: efficiency is irrelevant when comparing modes of transportation with differing capabilities. If you live and work on a bus line, and can choose whether to drive your car or take the bus to work, then it matters that the bus is more efficient. If I need to get my boat to the lake, it is meaningless to say the bus is more efficient than my SUV.
“efficiency is irrelevant when comparing modes of transportation with differing capabilities. ”
Firstly I’m referring to energy efficiency. A well defined measure of how much energy is required to move a passenger over a distance. Second, I’m referring to buses and cars, both vehicles designed to carry human passengers. If you believe 50 people on a bus is less energy efficient than 50 people in individual cars, then make your case.
You might be surprised what buses can carry. I remember a trip in China where a dozen or so cages full of dogs destined for the meat market were loaded on the roof. Some of the passenger were indignant that dogs were given a higher position than the human passengers down below inside. Also India, different country, different bus. People sitting on the roof. Some foreign women tried to get up and join them. Indignation again, but against women rather than dogs.
WHOOSH!
Could someone figure out how many Uber (or whatever rides) could be provided if the public transportation system budget was simply converted to free Uber rides? Maybe just giving those in poverty free Uber rides would be far cheaper and considerably more effective.
I don’t want to get from Tucson to Salt Lake City. Ask someone who does. I commented to point out the superior energy efficiency of mass transport over individual. This will increasingly become the important consideration in transportation and other planning, like home heating and cooling etc if we are serious about carbon emissions. How to get the most out of the energy we expend. You’ll doubtless come around to this as prices for fossil fuels rise.
A dozen years or so, L.A. jacked up the price of a bus ticket. As soon as they did, ridership dropped off. A bus pass for an adult was raised to $100, and a kid’s pass went up to $25. So a family of 4, would have to pay out $3,000 a year to ride the bus. With the inconvenience level of buses, that didn’t make sense for almost anyone.
When covid hit, the buses became free. Nobody was on them, but they were free. After covid, they realized they had a problem with the cost, and created low-income passes, and a system that caps the cost for regular riders. Ridership is still tanked, and there are more violent incidents and more drug use on the transit system. No one wants to ride it.
Back before covid, our kid did take the train to school, since it had a stop just a few blocks away. But a poll of students said that only a couple percent took transit. On the prosperous west side of L.A., more than half he class took rideshare to school every day.