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Innovation

Don't Shame the OceanGate Crew for Taking Huge Risks

But don't expect taxpayers to rescue adventurers when they fail, either.

Christian Britschgi | 6.21.2023 5:45 PM

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Deployed submarine |  EyePress/Newscom
( EyePress/Newscom)

The search continues for exploration company OceanGate's Titan submarine and its five crewmembers, who went missing Sunday afternoon during a dive down to the Titanic wreckage in the North Atlantic.

Back on land, the commentariat is taking no shortage of joy in their misfortune, pointing to a long list of statements from OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush (who is on the Titan craft) about prioritizing innovation over the safety concerns expressed by former employees and other marine industry professionals.

Here's a reason I'm a pro-mockery of the OceanGate fiasco: that whole "regulations stifle innovation" thing that crops up in their PR to present the whole "untested and unlicensed" thing as a feature rather than a bug: people who want us eating heavy metals for breakfast say that

— Alexandra Erin | patreon.com/AlexandraErin (@AlexandraErin) June 21, 2023

 

The mockery about Titan's comeuppance is, for the moment, premature given that rescue operations are still underway. It's a little tasteless given that even risk-tolerant libertarian businessmen and their paying customers are still in fact human beings. And he's right that regulation stifles innovation.

But tweets like the one above also miss Rush's acknowledgment that his company was taking a risk. His argument was not that by taking the risk, everything would work out fine. It was that the risk he wouldn't make it back to land was worth it if it meant he got to see the wreckage of the Titanic up close.

Some people may not find that tradeoff personally compelling. But it's not that different from the goals that animated a long line of astronauts, test pilots, explorers, and more who all took insane risks (and often died) just to be the first person to do something or see something.

By modern standards, Ferdinand Magellan took an incredibly foolhardy risk to try and sail around the globe in a leaky carrack. And it didn't pay off! He was killed during his voyage. Robert Falcon Scott was taking large unnecessary risks by trying to be the first person to reach the South Pole. He made it there (albeit in second place) but froze to death on his way back to civilization.

There's no pressing societal need served by someone planting a flag at the bottom of the world or being the first to circle the globe. These men still felt it was worth the risk and history generally seems to agree with them. Even people who don't personally have the risk tolerance of a 16th-century explorer can still admire the drive and the effort.

To be sure, there's nothing admirable about imposing massive risks on uninformed or unsuspecting parties. The OceanGate crew seems likely to have been well aware of the Titan vessel's safety risks, as was the general public—the company itself discussed them at length on its website.

Past passengers had to sign consent forms describing the vessel as "experimental" and uncertified, and that could potentially lead to their deaths. If the same is true of this most recent Titan mission, the people traveling with Rush knew they were taking major risks as well.

People who do take massive risks shouldn't expect a massively publicly funded effort to bail them out of trouble. At a press conference today, a Coast Guard spokesperson said that a four-nation mission of air, surface, and subsurface vessels had yet to locate Titan.

If the assumption at OceanGate was that they could take a chance on their experimental vessel because the Coast Guard (and taxpayers) would always be there to save them, then the company was inappropriately trying to socialize their losses.

It shows that they too might have lost some of the golden age explorers' tolerance for risk. Magellan didn't have a Coast Guard to count on when he set off on his journey.

One could make the case that the U.S. Coast Guard, Canadian military, and British and French rescue personnel should leave it to the private sector to find and rescue Titan. They got themselves into this situation, and they should get themselves out of it.

OceanGate legal and operational advisor David Concannon complained in a NewsNation interview (and again in a follow-up Facebook post) that the government was slow to approve the deployment of private submersibles needed to reach and rescue Titan.

Somebody simply has to write the ultimate catch-all essay on disruptive, libertarian, private-sector-touting entrepreneurs simply begging and demanding for state intervention at the end of their journeys. (This is the Titan sub company's adviser.) pic.twitter.com/dsB9YLln8w

— Eve Fairbanks (@evefairbanks) June 21, 2023

That dumb billionaire oceangate submarine guy flaunted doing things in international waters where he'd be free of pesky regulation.

Now our regulated tax dollars are being used to search for him and his gameboy controlled submarine.

They always come crying for a bailout.

— President Kamala's Hand (Again) (@myronjclifton) June 21, 2023

It's unclear exactly what approvals the company is waiting on, or how crucial those submersibles would be in the rescue mission.

Since taxpayers have already shelled out for massive publicly funded search and rescue operations, perhaps the most humane thing to do is deploy them trying to find the lost craft (and then send OceanGate a big bill for all their efforts).

User fees help private parties internalize the risks they take. Doing so would let people better price risky exploratory trips to the bottom of the ocean. But putting some value on that trip to the bottom of the ocean wasn't the sin it's being made out to be.

Rent Free is a weekly newsletter from Christian Britschgi on urbanism and the fight for less regulation, more housing, more property rights, and more freedom in America's cities.

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NEXT: New Test Data Show That COVID School Closures Rapidly Accelerated U.S. Learning Losses

Christian Britschgi is a reporter at Reason.

InnovationRiskOceansNavyNanny StateSafetyConspiracy TheoriesSocial Media
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  1. Homer Thompson   2 years ago

    xmas in july for the statists

    1. Mother's Lament   2 years ago

      They went out of their way to exclude competent, middle-aged, white engineers because DEI was the most important thing in designing the coffin, and we're not supposed to shame them?

      1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

        Yeah, I'm not shaming them for taking big risks but for taking stupid ones.

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        3. Rob Misek   2 years ago

          Regulations shmegulations eh?

          The same fuckwits who decry regulation ostensibly preferring letting the market decide all things have little or no regard for human life.

          What makes them any better than the monsters of their bogeyman stories? Do monsters not put their own selfish and greedy interests first?

          The fate of these five fuckwits should serve as a sobering reminder for the need for regulation even in a civilization with markets.

          But that doesn’t serve the bogeyman’s interests.

          The larger and more complex something becomes the more rules and regulations that are required to manage or operate it.

          A glider vs a 747.

          Our populations and civilizations have grown exponentially since the founding of the US. We are global. To manage what we have become our regulations must keep up.

          Criminalize lying
          Empower everyone with the inalienable right to record everything they witness everywhere they go
          Establish the internet as a public place with passport like security

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          2. bobodoc   2 years ago

            Even though I tend to disagree with your main point I did find your argument worth pondering. But then you said "Criminalize lying" and "Establish the internet as a public place with passport like security" and now I'm not even going to think about your more general point.

            1. Rob Misek   2 years ago

              Yeah, sounds like you should have stuck to trying to understand only one concept at at time.

              Sucks to be you.

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              2. Gandydancer   2 years ago

                No, you're just a totalitarian shithead, as demonstrated by the lines bobodoc points to, making it completely unnecessary to point out the stupidity of allowing our incompetent and intrusive government to ban unlicensed risk-taking, still less unapproved internet access.

                1. Rob Misek   2 years ago

                  Freedom aka authority is commensurate with regulation aka responsibility.

                  Lying is coercion, not protected speech. Why do you want to lie?

                  If you want your rights to apply on the internet as they do in public places, it needs to be recognized as one.

                  Everyone in every public place all over the world is required to be able to be positively identified. Requiring it on the internet isn’t news.

                  You’re just another dime a dozen bigot unwilling to consider counter arguments.

            2. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

              Herr Misek is a delusional, Holocaust Denier, Anti-Semitic, Nazi Apple-Polisher. 'Nuff said!

          3. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

            If you had your way, you'd forbid your citizens from leaving the Fatherland and risking exposure to free thought, expression, production, and exchange with Jews, Freemasons, and others you deem to be "Satanic," "inferior," and "degenerate."

            Fuck Off, Nazi!

            1. Truthfulness   2 years ago

              You're not really in a position to talk.

              1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

                How? You've never bothered to answer that question with any evidence. And what is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

            2. Rob Misek   2 years ago (edited)

              Do you realize that by lying, claiming what you can’t prove and denying what you can’t refute, you’re debasing yourself, grovelling, Kol Nidre boy?

              You do a lot of grovelling.

              1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

                Like Captain America, any move I do on my knees is just a feigning to size up whether I'll need to crush a nut sack, followed by knocking the Cosmic Cube from The Red Skull's hands.

                Fuck Off, Nazi!

                1. Rob Misek   2 years ago

                  I don’t that had the impact you were going for.

                  Hahaha

                  1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

                    I doubt I'd find a nut sack to crush if I were under you, and the only Cosmic Cube you have is your block-head, which can only change reality in the confines of your lizard brain.

                    Fuck Off, Nazi!

        4. damikesc   2 years ago

          Yeah, cannot imagine how relying on a $30 off the shelf joystick could be a bad idea. Also having no GPS on the sub itself. And not alerting anybody of a problem for 8 hours.

          1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   2 years ago

            And not attaching a mechanically deployed emergency buoy on a reel with enough line to reach the surface. Seriously, a high-test fishing line would suffice. If it can bring in a 621 lb marlin, it could stay attached to a plastic buoy even in rough seas.

            These guys definitely deserve to be shamed.

            1. jimc5499   2 years ago

              The "plastic buoy" would be crushed at that depth. "Fishing line" becomes brittle at the temperature of the water at that depth.

              1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   2 years ago

                Good point. I was spitballing there. But I am pretty sure we could find an analogous device with positive buoyancy that would survive the descent without too much cost.

              2. Dale   2 years ago

                Buoys designed to rise from depth are filled with diesel, typically.

            2. Gandydancer   2 years ago

              The submersible was crushed within seconds of whatever structural failure happened, and its remains were found easily enough. What is the supposed benefit of this buoy? (And, re damikesc's complaint that the joystick wasn't gold plated, the failure didn't happen because of a joystick failure. Sheesh.)

            3. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

              In all fairness, if a craft or diver is brought up too fast, there is the danger of giving the craft inhabitants or diver excess Nitrogen in the blood a.k.a. "the bends."

          2. Ragnarredbeard   2 years ago

            A $30 joystick controller is only a problem if it doesn't work. Do you have any data that it didn't work?

            And GPS doesn't work underwater.

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            2. NOYB2   2 years ago

              Yes: these are consumer grade devices that people frequently have reported problems with.

              1. Gandydancer   2 years ago

                So what? The sub wasn't crushed because its joystick wasn't expensive enough.

                You don't know what happened. Spare us your hot take.

                1. NOYB2   2 years ago

                  Ragnarredbeard asked whether there was any reason to believe that it didn't work. I answered. I didn't say that that is what happened.

                  We pretty much know why the sub was crushed: the use of carbon fiber and inadequate testing. That's because the CEO was an arrogant prick who disregarded the advice from 50-something white guys in favor of DEI and an ego trip.

          3. TrickyVic (old school)   2 years ago

            Does the GPS signal reach that far below the surface?

            1. Gandydancer   2 years ago

              No.

              And the wreck is right next to the Titanic. It's not like they lost their way.

          4. MajorLord   2 years ago

            Sadly, GPS receivers don't work underwater. Submarines usually have a sonar transponder in case they sink, but a catastrophic hull failure at depth is like a bomb going off ( Sort off) and the sub may have just done the underwater equivalent of vaporizing nearly instantaneously.

          5. NOYB2   2 years ago

            GPS would have been useless.

            But an automatic ultrasonic beacon that generates a loud beep every 15 seconds would have been good. Even better, two: one that can be manually detached in case of an accident.

            1. Gandydancer   2 years ago

              How are dead people going to manually detach anything?

              1. NOYB2   2 years ago

                In a properly constructed sub, people don't immediately die when something goes wrong and rescue may be possible.

                1. markm23   2 years ago

                  At 12,500 feet, everyone dies instantly if there's any breach of the hull. A jet of water at 388 atmospheres is as deadly as a modern gatling gun.

                  1. NOYB2   2 years ago

                    Gosh, you don't say! What a brilliant insight! Next thing you're going to tell me that water is wet!

                    Here's the thing: if you don't make your sub out of glue and fabric, but instead out of steel, and if you test it properly, hull implosions are pretty unlikely. At that point, the risks you face are things like power failure and entanglements, and at that point, you actually do have occasion to use a rescue buoy.

                    Furthermore, an automatic beacon is also useful as a black box to let you know that an accident has occurred, even if everybody is dead.

      2. Stuck in California   2 years ago (edited)

        Doh -- link downthread. Nothing to see here.

      3. docduracoat   2 years ago

        I agree with Mothers Lament.
        The company said they would not hire any white 50 year old ex submariner as they would not inspire the youth.
        So they had no subject matter expert at all.
        I also just heard that United Airlines is hiring for diversity and not merit.
        Make a note to self to not go in any private submarines or United Airlines planes

        1. Rob Misek   2 years ago

          You can thank our woke cancel culture for all execs looking over their shoulders and making sure they only hire popular demographics.

          1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD   2 years ago

            They probably wouldn’t hire Jews either.

          2. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

            Your fellow Aryan Pure Supermen wouldn't have done any better in the same situation.

            8 out of 10 of their vaunted V-2 Rockets never reached England and either blew up on the launch pad, fell in the ocean, or got shot down.

            And Nazi Germany had a shitload of U-Boats destroyed, sunk, scuttled, and surrendered:

            German U-Boat Casualties in World War Two
            https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/u/united-states-submarine-losses/german-u-boat-casualties-in-world-war-two.html

            Go down with the ship and Fuck Off, Nazi!

            1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

              Might I add, all these submarines were made in one of the most tightly regulated societies of the 20th Century and all of human history.

              Again, Fuck Off, Nazi!

        2. ravenshrike   2 years ago

          I mean, I'm pretty sure the reason he didn't hire the 50 year old ex sub guys was because all of them would have told him to take a hike. Instead he hired people who didn't know just how fucking stupid what they were doing was and couldn't be bothered to find out.

      4. Curiosity18   2 years ago

        Experts inside and outside the company warned of safety issues. There is no bravery in "doing it anyway."

      5. Whois23   2 years ago

        DEI=die?

      6. Elmer Fudd the CHUD   2 years ago

        As always, leftists are to blame.

    2. freelancerankitkumar   2 years ago

      yes

    3. Inesita   2 years ago

      You cite Magellan. But Magellan took great care to supply the ship and make sure it was seaworthy, knowing fully the dangers of the sea. In fact, while he was killed in battle with the habitants of the Philippines, his ship got back to port. Magellan would not have mocked safety standards as Rush did.

      As for regulations stifling creativity, the existing regulations did not stop Corning from creating Foamglass, which has been widely used in construction - and now served to reopen the damage section of I95 in just two weeks. If anything, regulations about recycling provided Corning with the raw material for it (it uses recycled glass)

      This sad episode shows that you do not play around with safety standards, specially if you are doing something you have not done before.

      1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD   2 years ago

        It wasn’t regulations. It was the lack of qualified engineers. Since the company hired based on DEI standards instead of competency or qualification. So really, like everything else that goes wrong, democrats are to blame.

    4. cartoonrobot   2 years ago

      Comparing them to early explorers and adventurers in an attempt to make it sound like they are even similar is ridiculous. Yes, it was dangerous, but that doesn't mean they were just saying "screw it" and going at it like the coyote on ACME rocket skates over a canyon. They were using the safety standards and technology of their time to push limits. This guy was just purposely skirting safety in the most contrarian way to thumb his nose and to save costs because he just wanted to do it his way.

      Safe expeditions have been made. The technology and safety precautions of well understood circumstance exist in this case, unlike with Magellan, where it was take the risk or do nothing. Trying to connect the two in order to justify this ridiculous exercise in an act of childish hubris and contradictory behavior to people that risked their lives by pushing boundaries is laughable at best. They cut corners, they ignored safety precautions, and they have paid the price.

      And, as if you say, they all believed it was worth it, then it is not a tragedy that should remain free of mockery, it is a situation where people got exactly what they signed up for. So laughing that they signed up to die in an obvious death trap is not the same thing as laughing at innocent people who were caught in a tragic situation of someone else's design.

      1. Curiosity18   2 years ago

        "This guy was just purposely skirting safety in the most contrarian way to thumb his nose and to save costs because he just wanted to do it his way." yes, that.

      2. Paloma   2 years ago

        Reminds me of when Karl Wallenda was warned not to walk a tightrope between buildings in San Juan because the winds were unpredictable.
        He assumed he knew way more than the local authorities.
        And fell to his death.
        People were horrified.
        But they also laughed about it. Made jokes for months afterwards.

        1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD   2 years ago

          People were also horrified by the Challenger explosion. But within days, the Christa McAuliffe (the teacher/astronaut) jokes were rolling out to everyone’s amusement.

    5. Can you use that in a sentence?   2 years ago

      Nothing wrong with risk taking. Firing your QC guy when he points out serious safety concerns is idiotic. Same with prioritizing diversity over merit.

  2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

    Great technical breakdown of OceanGate's (is there a more appropriate name for this sub company?) process of "safety" and "traditional methods" in making sure things are designed to spec.

    Included: Interview snippets from CEO where he eschewed hiring subject matter experts who usually hail from the Navy and other fields with "decades" of experience, because he didn't want is company to be filled with "50 yr old white guys". He wanted a younger, more dynamic group to "inspire 16 yr olds" to go into oceanography.

    Q: Who designed this submarine?

    A: Let me introduce you to our D.I.E. compliant team.

    This whole thing puts me in mind of the Theranos doc, Out for Blood where the "move fast and break things" ethos was criticized when Silicon Valley begins to to dabble in things that have life-and-death consequences. It's great when you're putting a new kind of emoji on an email or imposing a mustache and sunglasses on a selfie, but has potentially different consequences when you're fucking with people's lives.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago (edited)

      Fun fact, the egress hatch can only be opened from the outside. No, I’m not signing your liability “waiver”.

      1. Chinny Chin Chin   2 years ago

        This is common in sub design.

        1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

          Not according to the expert in the video.

          1. MT-Man   2 years ago

            Well you got him not to troll, that's a first you win.

        2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

          Titanic sub hatch design means passengers will suffocate even if they surface, say experts
          Experts say the sub would need to be found by rescuers before the vessel's oxygen supply runs out because the five passengers would not be able to open its hatch from inside.

          William Hill £2
          Titanic sub hatch design means passengers will suffocate even if they surface, say experts
          Experts say the sub would need to be found by rescuers before the vessel's oxygen supply runs out because the five passengers would not be able to open its hatch from inside.

          Inside the missing Titanic exploration sub
          Experts say the five men aboard the missing Titanic sub could still suffocate even if the vessel resurfaces because its hatch cannot be opened from the inside.

          It's one thing to understand that it's going to be impossible to "egress" the sub when you're at 4000 meters depth, but if you successfully get to the surface, or are in 10' of water, it's a pretty shitty deal that if rescuers can't get to you in those to hypothetical situations, that there's literally no way to get out.

          Specifically, the guy in the video explains what lessons were learned from the Apollo 1 disaster.

          1. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

            And then there's all the talking heads on cable saying they have to bring them up slowly if they find them, so they don't get the bends.

            Even though they're in a pressure vessel holding at approx 1 atmosphere of pressure.

            1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

              Funny story about me:

              I've always been a big fan of subs and submersibles, and years ago I began to dabble in the idea of designing my own little submarine that might to down to say, 50'. Nothing dramatic. I started to research designs, how-tos, read articles on other people that had done it etc., but along the way, my thoughts began to turn to safety-- not just "how do I build a vessel that can submerge down to 50'.

              I began to think about everything that could go wrong. I began to think about ballast systems that if something catastrophic happened, I could pull a lever or turn a handle and some ballast would drop and I'd take a rocket ride to the surface.

              What if the ballast failed to drop?
              How am I getting fresh air, am I scrubbing it or am I just pumping air into the cabin? How do I monitor it for toxicity? How do I maintain 1 atmosphere of pressure? Is that realistic? What if it begins to leak? How do I breathe if it starts taking on water or the air system fails? If it fills with water suddenly, how do I see under water and continue to breathe? How do I escape if it does fill with water and no one can get to me quickly, even if I can breathe with an external apparatus? What if I do have an egress mechanism that I can actuate from the inside, but the sub rolls over and that egress mechanism is blocked or jammed? Then I began to think about electronic systems? What if they fail? What if they catch fire? What if the cabin fills with smoke?

              I finally decided that I didn't want my epitaph to be "he died doing what he loved: Sitting on the bottom of the ocean, desperately banging on the outside of a metal tube while he slowly suffocated to death" Or worse.

              1. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

                Get in touch with the Cali cartel out of Colombia. They used to use homebuilt subs for drug running.

                1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

                  They still do.

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              2. Dan S.   2 years ago

                I'm sure that the "Turtle" submarine, used in the American Revolution, didn't have any elaborate safety systems. But then, it apparently was only intended to descend to about 20 feet, not to 50.

                1. markm23   2 years ago

                  Nobody died in the Turtle - nor on the British ship it attempted to attack.

                  OTOH, the CSS Hunley killed three of it's crews, but did sink a Union warship.

            2. jimc5499   2 years ago

              That depends. Is it at one atmosphere? I could see it being pressurized to more than that to reduce the loading on the hull. If it is pressurized what gas mix is being used. If it is Heli-Ox then the bends wouldn't be an issue.

          2. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

            I think there’s a bit of talking past each other going on here. The history of underwater and even surface marine transport is replete with examples of people dying on the surface specifically because of issues like this. Situations where, if it weren’t for the specific transport and life support systems meant to maintain the passenger(s) preventing their rescue and causing their deaths, the passengers would’ve survived.

            Both sides are why I continue to reiterate that, until a considerable portion of the oceans and poles are stably inhabited (at current or near-current conditions), lots of Martian colonies are going to be akin to what you describe: crypts full of epitaphs commemorating heroes who died doing what they loved; etching their own last will and testaments on the inner hulls of their habitats while food, water, or oxygen depletion, accumulation of waste/toxins, failure of materials or equipment, or some combination of all of the above (and more) ran out their time for them.

            1. mad.casual   2 years ago

              I mean, shit we just spent two weeks cramming life support intubation systems down people's throats and stranded something on the order of 10,000 people on various floating Mediterranean colonies because something like 8 people died, later, of a novel virus of unspecified origin.

              1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

                Wait, what's this?

                Like, Covid joke about "two weeks" or something else?

                1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

                  It is a joke about two weeks AND something else.

                  1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

                    I accept that I should have used XOR there...

                    OK, so what's the "something else"?

                    1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

                      The double meaning of "cramming... down people's throats." Both literal intubation and everything that happened in the "Two weeks to stop the spread" that left most of us aghast.

                    2. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

                      Oh, OK. It was the "Mediterranean Islands" that threw me, I guess. Thanks!

                    3. mad.casual   2 years ago

                      Oh, OK. It was the “Mediterranean Islands” that threw me, I guess. Thanks!

                      Mediterranean *colonies*. Not strictly Mediterranean, but the initial focus was on MSC Magnifica in the Mediterranean, we turned (failed to turn) "3 hour tour" cruises around the world into floating, 'remote' leper quarantine/leper colonies relatively impromptu and when you added up everyone who died with COVID that was, in some way, cruise-related, it was less than two handfuls of people.

                      Even with 100 yrs. of virology expertise several hundred years of seafaring exploration *with the help of 'experts'*:

                      There is little doubt among experts that the handling of the virus on board the Diamond Princess was an abject failure from the onset. Simply put by Dr. Anthony Fauci, the Director of the (US) National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, “…it failed”

                      As Diane and I joke below, even if the submarine had a 'boring, 50-yr.-old white expert' design a two-way door, the odds that the boring, 50-yr.-old white expert next to him would've insisted in keeping the door closed for two weeks to make sure no one who went in without COVID could debark and spread it was still probably still probably significantly greater than zero.

                    4. mad.casual   2 years ago

                      and when you added up everyone who died with COVID that was, in some way, cruise-related, it was less than two handfuls of people.

                      And I was incorrect. If you added up everyone who was known to have contracted COVID while on a cruise who later died it was something on the order of a couple handfuls of people, but if you count passengers and crew of everyone who either returned to port/country of origin or was denied entry to a given port, it was on the order of 100,000 people.

                      A fuckup, or series of them, that bad, alone, (to say nothing of the other lockdowns and impromptu 'safety measures') would/could probably kill several dozen martian colonies totaling over a couple million people.

                      It would be a real life Dead Space or System Shock or BioShock sort of situation.

                    5. But SkyNet is a Private Company   2 years ago

                      It was a very Hank-ish post if we’re being honest

                  2. Pancho   2 years ago

                    Cruise COVID-19 deaths included in February 2020, 28 deaths, 852 cases/ Diamond Princess, 14 deaths, 712 cases.

                    Where do these "handfuls" dummies get their numbers?

                    1. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

                      The Diamond Princess *and* Grand Princess had more than 800 total COVID-19 cases, including 10 deaths.
                      ...
                      On February 21, five crew members from (Grand Princess) voyage A transferred to three other ships with a combined 13,317 passengers on board. No-sail orders were issued by CDC for these ships until medical logs were reviewed and the crew members tested negative for SARS-CoV-2.

                      – The CDC, March 27, 2020

                      Now, kindly, go fuck yourself.

              2. Ajsloss   2 years ago

                Omg, that was a great use of “two weeks”. +10

            2. CE   2 years ago

              The first settlers in Jamestown didn't fare so well either, and they had plentiful air, water, and food sources available.

              Two-thirds of the settlers died before ships arrived in 1608 with supplies... Only 60 of the original 214 settlers at Jamestown survived...

              1. mad.casual   2 years ago

                Yeah. Much akin to the 17 bolts on the outside of the egress hatch, I'll wait until after the second or third time half a colony gets pushed out an airlock to avoid a respiratory disease with a 99.5+% survivability rate before anyone can convince me to go.

                1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago (edited)

                  Over-under if OceanGate required their *checks notes* passengers being required to wear a mask in the submersible during any outing between 2020-2023?

                  1. mad.casual   2 years ago

                    LOL, "Are you fully vaccinated or have you had COVID at any point outside the last two weeks?"

          3. A Cynical Asshole   2 years ago

            Specifically, the guy in the video explains what lessons were learned from the Apollo 1 disaster.

            Funny, as I was reading that comment I was thinking about making a comment about Apollo 1. Specifically, something like "did they learn nothing from Apollo 1?"

            1. mad.casual   2 years ago

              One *novel* issue he doesn't discuss but briefly brushes up against in a couple of other failure modes: carbon fiber hulls in a high O2 and/or fire environment. In a traditional ironclad submarine, no matter how high you crank the O2 and ignite it, you can't appreciably weaken the hull (or hulls) enough to cause structural failure or breech/decompression. Even for aluminum water and aircraft, the temperature and oxidation potentials are much lower but still extremely high. With a carbon fiber, or carbon fiber reinforced, hull the temperature and O2 levels at which the hull itself becomes combustible is *much* lower.

              Moreover, as indicated, unlike aluminum and iron hulls the combustion of carbon fiber is based on the resin which itself can by pyrotoxic well in excess of metal hulls and even plastic-insulated silicon electronics.

              1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

                A couple of friends and I have been exchanging texts on this because some of us are submarine buffs, and he made a really good point that I couldn't deny:

                "No [o2 toxicity] detection actually makes sense in this scenario. Detect all the shit you want. Won't be able to do anything about it. So you might as well not have to listen to the klaxon alarm as you're asphyxiating."

              2. Stuck in California   2 years ago

                Knew a guy many years ago crash landed a composite airplane. He could have survived the landing if he'd done a good job, but the burning composites killed him in short order and he never got out. At the end the throttle went forward just before touchdown and he overran the runway. That's probably when he passed out.

                Soot was found in his lungs and he died of "thermal burns." Not the impact. Composites are nasty stuff when they catch on fire.

              3. TryLogic   2 years ago

                "no matter how high you crank the O2 and ignite it" Fun fact, oxygen doesn't get ignited. It supports the ignition of other things. You can hold a match to an outflow of 100% oxygen, and the only thing that happens is your match burns faster. I read a bunch of armchair engineers above, redesigning subs in their heads. All miss the point. The people in this sub voluntarily accepted the risk of travelling in it. Design flaws and all. They signed the waiver pointing that out, too. That's what free people can do. Sometimes it ends badly (hence risk statements and waivers) and those who are observers add that to their own risk calculators. Stringing together some random, poorly informed thoughts about carbon fiber resin pyrotoxicity and oxygen contents is just mental masterbation. For a bit more armchair engineering - Door designs that open from the inside outward won't help if you're at 12K feet, there is in excess of 5K psi pressing the exterior of the door against the frame at that depth. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Chuck Norris together won't help you with that. Sometimes bad shit happens, and it sure looks like this is one of those times.

                1. Bobster0   2 years ago

                  Bullshit! Chuck Norris could do it!

          4. Karl Hungus   2 years ago

            "....but if you successfully get to the surface, or are in 10′ of water, it’s a pretty shitty deal that if rescuers can’t get to you in those to hypothetical situations, that there’s literally no way to get out."

            What's interesting is that even if the hatch could be opened from the inside of the craft, in 10 feet of water, the occupants wouldn't be able to force the hatch open. At 10 feet, the pressure differential would be about 5 PSI. So if you had a hatch of, say, 500 square inches, that 10 feet of water would provide about 2500 pounds of force that the occupants would have to overcome.

            Water is heavy, and it can so some pretty scary stuff when it's under pressure.

        3. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

          The lessons of Elizabeth Holmes were apparently alive and well at OceanGate: I don't believe in backup plans, because having a backup plan means you've already admitted failure.

        4. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf   2 years ago

          The hatch is held on by 17 bolts which are tightened and loosened from the outside.

          Is that common too?

          1. CE   2 years ago

            It's not something you'd want to open too soon though.

          2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

            I'm going to accept Chinny Chinn Chinn's assertion that on this class of submersible, hatches that can only be actuated from the outside is common. Which makes all the secondary safety mechanisms all the more important.

            "so I'm TRAPPED in this tube until someone who can a: Find me and 2: Get to me and III: have the equipment to get me out, whether I'm at 4000', 10' or on the beach of an uncharted Isle... ok, please show me your backup systems, your backup backup systems, and your backup backup backup systems. Oh, and if there's a pinhole leak that starts spraying freezing saltwater all over the inside of the cabin, are those electronics hardened against that?"

            1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

              Oh, and if there’s a pinhole leak that starts spraying freezing saltwater all over the inside of the cabin, are those electronics hardened against that?”

              Or to be more current on the latest info, 'is that nintendo game controller hardened against that'?

              1. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

                It is rather obviously a Playstation knockoff, Logitech F710 controller grandpa. You don’t have like a half dozen of them (or their USB counterpart F310s sitting around your home)? They were pretty ubiquitous in my oldest son's robotics competition days.

                Personally, that was the funniest part to me (although the thought of requiring vaccinations and masks before being allowed to board a deathtrap is pretty close) of the whole affair. That thought stream nestled right between “I *can’t* *believe* they did that!”, “OMG they *did* that?”, and “Of course they fucking did *that*!”. Like driving an F-250 and stumbling across this on the internet.

            2. jimc5499   2 years ago

              "Pinhole leak"? At that depth any flaw in the hull, the whole thing gives way instantly. They wouldn't have known what hit them.

        5. Ragnarredbeard   2 years ago

          Show me other submersibles with that design.

          1. mad.casual   2 years ago

            Again, talking past each other here. It's, or the underlying idea, is somewhat intrinsic to closed bell saturation diving. Kinda akin to the point about if you have no way to egress, atmospheric toxicity alarms just become impending death notifications, if your rapid egress means decompression and death then your ability to open the bell from the inside essentially becomes a suicide lever.

            Especially without the context of whether it is/was a good idea in this specific case, or is generally a good idea or not in any given context, I really don't understand how this is that controversial a statement. From the earliest standard diving dress to the modern JIM Suit people get into submersibles and life support devices all the time that they can't egress from the inside. Even the modern spacesuit represents such a trap where the passenger and life support system/suit could be in a completely controlled and safe location, but by virtue of arriving in that safe location in a given condition, the living passenger is effectively already dead because of the life support system trying to keep him alive.

            Professionals do a very good job of avoiding the risks (or at least acknowledging and addressing them) and these situations but the risk itself is an artifact of biology and the body's ability to carry the brain into systems it cannot survive or otherwise get itself out of.

        6. Heresolong   2 years ago

          Are you insane? Have you ever been anywhere near a submarine?

      2. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   2 years ago

        the egress hatch can only be opened from the outside

        The ghost of Gus Grissom is laughing his ass off.

      3. Paloma   2 years ago

        Well, it turned out it WAS opened from the outside, in a way.

    2. Nardz   2 years ago

      Apparently the engineers are all 50 something white guys, but what gets me is they said the window port was designed (or tested) to only handle pressure up to depths of like 1300 meters... but they were diving to 4000 meters.
      Yikes

      1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

        But that's only like, 3 times as much pressure, right? *tee hee!*

    3. Overt   2 years ago

      Above all, I find this entire thing to be incredibly silly.

      Look at that submersible. What is that, a 12 inch window on the front?

      Who spends a quarter million dollars on that when a little more can get you into ORBIT with 5x the view?

      1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

        I'm kind of with you. The Titanic doesn't really matter to me, either. So I don't get the draw. But it's OK if others do.

        Still, you go down and you can see... nothing. Visibility with flood lights is like 20 feet. It is to viewing the Titanic what 90s porn that's nothing but closeups of a vag and Ron Jeremy's balls are to beauty contests. You're looking so close you don't actually see a thing.

        1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

          "This is the 320x240 view of Ron Jeremy's balls of deep-sea diving."

          1. mad.casual   2 years ago

            OK, I was a little bit puzzled on what exact 90s era porn he was referring to in a bit of a don't ask, don't tell situation, but the vague reference to 240p, ironically, cleared things right up.

            But otherwise yeah, if it weren't for enjoyment of being 100 ft. down in water that lets you see at that depth or having some other purpose purpose for being down there like retrieving artifacts, the endeavor would really suck.

            Maybe getting crushed harder than Ginger Lynn was part of the attraction?

            1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

              Maybe we go literary, when Gulliver is brought to the breast of the Brobdingnagian woman and being so up close and personal her breast is gross to him. The giant nipple, the coarseness of the skin, everything about it was awful.

              That way people can get the point of looking at the tiny part and not being able to appreciate the whole while still pretending they don't know what I'm talking about.

              1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   2 years ago

                Who is Ron Jeremy? Maybe a quick web search...

                1. mad.casual   2 years ago

                  By the mid-90s we had DVDs and the joke or proto-meme "among the kinkier acts some actresses would not perform were bestiality, sado-masochism and sex with Ron Jeremy" was already pretty well-known. If you were stuck looking at Ron Jeremy's balls for porn in the 90s, it really sounds somewhere between a personal choice and the result of a series of bad life decisions.

                  1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

                    somewhere between a personal choice and the result of a series of bad life decisions.

                    And you've no specifically gotten the point. This phrase describes being on the bottom of the ocean in a poorly constructed tube on the off chance of seeing damned near nothing when something goes wrong.

                    1. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

                      And you’ve no specifically gotten the point.

                      I got your point. I’ve even been 100 ft. down in water where you can’t see 10 ft. even with a light. You’re missing mine. Ron Jeremy’s heyday was in the 80s, by the 90s, he was a parody of his former self and grainy closeup porn was an artifact of the 60s and 70s era sub-production quality porn, by the 90s Vivid Entertainment was producing full, production quality stuff with names like Jenna Jameson, Asia Carrera, and Janine Lindemulder. It was like saying you were stuck listening to 10s era Snoop Dogg scratchy, West Coast rap without Dolby correction. By the 10s, Snoop was similarly a parody of himself and the record-scratch, Dolby correction era was a decade prior.

                      No argument, just previously, tangentially confused.

  3. rev-arthur-l-kuckland   2 years ago

    Is there a screen door?

    1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

      Yes, next to the skyhook and the bucket of spotted paint. 😉

  4. Chinny Chin Chin   2 years ago (edited)

    Sure, Triton riders had to sign a personal liability waiver that warned of negative outcomes, the same can be said for anyone renting a pair of skis.

    But, Britches, do you suppose passengers on Triton knew they were classified “mission specialists” (rather than “passengers”) because that allowed OceanGate to save some $$$ on insurance?

    That company has used dodgy practices and questionably equipment for years (and has nothing to do with the game controller, or hatch controls). Holding them up as paragons of exploration isn’t going to age well, as skeletons are pulled from the closets.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

      That company has used dodgy practices and questionably equipment for years (and has nothing to do with the game controller, or hatch controls).

      I agree with you here in part-- although when you're in a closed environment, having things like game controllers and what-not can lead to very scary circumstances. If some piece of home-electronics catches fire inside the death tube, you need to have systems or methods of mitigating that. The video I linked above does a pretty good job of essentially saying-- without saying-- that electronics and gear that won't catch fire, or safety systems that allow you to vent smoke in the case of a fire, or let passengers, you know, breath through a device with positive air flow become incredibly important when you're literally trapped inside a sealed tube. There's a reason that consumer grade piece of electronics that you bought off the shelf for $9.95 might not be suitable for a submersible that has passengers trapped inside of it for 10 hours and the only method of rescue is to surface it and then apply specialized equipment to get the hatch open.

      Even IF it's "common" for submersibles to have hatches ONLY openable from the inside, that creates even GREATER emphasis on having a whole host of safety mechanisms to help people survive a playstation controller catching fire inside of your sealed metal tube.

      1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

        Should read:

        for submersibles to have hatches ONLY openable from the outside

      2. Minadin   2 years ago

        Hey, that game controller was like $30 back in the day when it was produced.

        The thing is, whatever is going on, it's got to be incredibly horrific for the people on board, and only slightly less so for the people searching. It might have been better to have a catastrophic failure that was sudden, than a slow one.

      3. TryLogic   2 years ago

        Agree, but most failures start out as one thing, then causing many different things to fail along the timeline. You cannot mitigate every risk in a sub. Your Nintendo controller catches fire - you don your supplied air regulator to mitigate the smoke, your teammate grabs a fire extinguisher and bangs it against the hose manifold for your regulator, breaking the hose...now you can't breathe and he's blowing a bottle of Halon around...riding in a submersible like these guys did is at least as hazardous as a deep cave dive. The stats aren't pretty for that either.

  5. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

    I say Let 'em crash!

    1. JFree   2 years ago

      Haha. That's what I thought of.

      1. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

        One of the great quotable movies.

        1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

          I worked at an airport 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure a few of my friends communicated nearly entirely through Airplane quotes.

          And it's true. Flying is just like riding a bicycle. Except it's a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  6. Honest Economics   2 years ago

    For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/

    1. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

      What's the economy in using game consoles in submarines? If you can't answer, no!

  7. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

    "I hope to get a few hours of sleep, wake up and see very positive responses from the U.S. Government in my Inbox. If I don't, the whole world will know the names of the people who did not do their jobs."

    Well, we now all know the name of the OceanGate lawyer that's trying to save his own ass.

  8. Longtobefree   2 years ago

    Maybe I misunderstand all of history, but isn't every craft rescued by the coast guard a private craft?
    I mean, that is their job. Their only job before being pressed into drug interdiction.

    1. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

      Yes. It was formed by merging the Treasury department revenue cutters with the National Lifeboat Service.

    2. Gospace   2 years ago

      You need to educate yourself on the USCG and it's history. It has always been in the law enforcement business. They also maintain buoys and other navigational aids. Operate ice breakers. And various other tasks. And in a declared war- become part of the Navy for the duration. They have a lot of functions. SAR is an important part of it, but far from the only part.

      1. flag58   2 years ago

        ++

  9. Yes Way, Ted   2 years ago

    Don't tell me what to do, bro. This story is only a day old, and I'm already sick of hearing about how some billionaire retard thrill seeker is missing.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

      So are the OceanGate investors.

    2. mad.casual   2 years ago

      Except it's not just a billionaire retard. I can be a pretty cold bastard, (but I'm no iceberg, eh?! eh?!?) but there were a couple of other potentially unwitting businessmen and a 19 yr. old on board.

      Admittedly, 19 is old enough to legally go to war, make your own decisions, and generally be considered an adult in our culture, but it's generally not old enough to drink, be kicked off your parents' insurance, or even, in some cases, purchase a handgun.

      1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

        More than old enough to have an affirming mastectomy, penectomy, or hysterectomy. By a decade at least.

  10. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

    And for the record, I'm not "shaming the CEO" for a solo trip he took in his submersible, I'm shaming him for taking unwitting 'lay people' down to 4000 meters without going through those stodgy, total-bummer-head-trip safety certification processes which just slow down innovation and stuff, man.

  11. EscherEnigma   2 years ago

    Last time I checked, all those famous explorers were actually (A) exploring, and (B) not taking along tourists.

    But just like Bezo's penis rocket from a few years ago, there aren't any explorers in this story, there are only tourists.

    We aren't talking about Edmund Hillary† here, and trying to frame the conversation to give that kind of glamour to it is... odd.
    ________
    †Edumand Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were the first to climb the summit to Mt. Everest.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

      Fun fact, Hillary Clinton was named after him.

      Truth.

      1. mad.casual   2 years ago

        Charge 36 of 38 that no reasonable prosecutor would bring against a former SOS.

      2. Unicorn Abattoir   2 years ago

        Even though she was born 6 years before he climbed Everest. Her Truth.

        1. JFree   2 years ago

          She was known as It until first grade.

          1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

            Believable.

      3. NOYB2   2 years ago

        I'm sure the experts are saying that!

    2. SRG   2 years ago (edited)

      More fun fact: the journalist who wrote the book on that Everest expedition, James Morris, later trans’ed to Jan Morris.

      1. Truthfulness   2 years ago

        More facts about Morris:
        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11527279/Celebrated-writer-Jan-Morris-bully-hug-children-daughter-claims.html

  12. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

    But don't expect taxpayers to rescue adventurers when they fail, either.

    Something something monkeypox vaccine.

    1. CE   2 years ago

      What about Matt Damon? He was always getting rescued at taxpayer expense. Saving Private Ryan, Interstellar, The Martian, etc.

      1. mad.casual   2 years ago

        Uh, Matt Damon wasn't in Interstellar, Matt McGonaughey was. And while it might be assumed taxpayer dollars (or slave labor in the case of the Chinese NEO launch support) were expended in The Martian, it's never explicitly stated. /movie nerd rant

        1. mad.casual   2 years ago

          never explicitly stated

          Er, explicitly indicated, IIRC. There's plenty of talk about "If he dies, no more funding." but there's never any talk of where the funding comes from and it's set in the (an alternate) future, unlike Private Ryan where they're rather faithfully trying to emulate WWII.

        2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

          Sandra Bullock did look good in that Chinese space station, tho, amirite?

          1. Stuck in California   2 years ago

            Her tight pants are really the one thing I remember clearly from Demolition Man.

        3. Morbo   2 years ago (edited)

          Matt Damon was Dr. Mann: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0816692/characters/nm0000354?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t22

          1. mad.casual   2 years ago

            Fair catch. Apparently, his role was rather unmemorable to the plot. I presume he wound up not getting saved at taxpayer expense?

            1. Stuck in California   2 years ago (edited)

              I can’t remember Matt Damon in anything after Team America, personally.

  13. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

    Don’t Shame the OceanGate Crew for Taking Huge Risks

    Sounds like… [scans to top of same page of notes] a problem of their own making and… [flips back one page] they should be federally prosecuted unless… [flips back several pages, several more pages, then several more pages] it’s convenient to a given set of social and politically progressive narratives.

    I'd say it's all right there in black and white, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure whether asserting proof in such a fashion constitutes systemic racism or not.

  14. CE   2 years ago

    People should be free to take whatever risks they like. And the company offering a very risky activity should disclose those risks fully.

    But if your vehicle is so advanced that no other vehicle can rescue it, maybe wait until you have two of them before offering tourist outings.

    1. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago

      Nicely put.

    2. Its_Not_Inevitable   2 years ago

      Or maybe in the Beta version the trip should be free.

    3. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

      And make it out of the same stuff as the indestructible black box. 🙂

  15. mad.casual   2 years ago

    Does the 24 hour rule start from the time of confirmed death or the time of loss of contact? Because I need to know when my ready-made jokes about 2-for-1 tickets to tour the wreckage of the Titan and Titanic go from being distasteful to being funny.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago (edited)

      Hard to say. Titanic sunk in 1912 and wasn’t discovered until 1985. The Hunley sunk in 1864 and wasn’t found until 2000. I’m guessing Kamala Harris will be in her eighth term before we find the Titan.

      1. mad.casual   2 years ago (edited)

        Hard to say.

        OK, I read that as I should at least wait until it’s out of the news cycle. You know, play it safe. We don’t want to hurt anyone by being too cavalier with deep, dark humor.

        1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   2 years ago

          cavalier with deep, dark humor.

          Is that humor banging out an S.O.S. on the inside of its carbon fibre coffin?

          1. mad.casual   2 years ago

            IDK, I can't hear it. Let me turn off the atmospheric toxicity alarms first...

        2. Nazi-Burning Witch   2 years ago (edited)

          Deep dark humor is like oxygen.

          Not everybody gets it.

  16. But SkyNet is a Private Company   2 years ago

    Those darn Christian Nationalists have ruined submarine tourism

    1. mad.casual   2 years ago

      What fun is ending the world in a flood if you can't watch the bloated corpses of your enemies bounce off the viewports of your submersible?

    2. Eeyore   2 years ago

      I think I saw a Christian Nationalist hanging out with Big Foot.

      1. The Margrave of Azilia   2 years ago

        They were drinking Pina Coladas at Trader Vics.

        1. Eeyore   2 years ago

          It might have been a Mai Tai. I think Big Foot loves Tiki Culture.

    3. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

      They're no threat to undersea exploration. They haven't got past believing that whales are fishes and that Jonah got swallowed by one, assuming Jonah even existed.

      *Tips fedora on top of deep-sea diving helmet, with bubbles saying: "M'Lady."*

      🙂

  17. Earth-based Human Skeptic   2 years ago

    Meanwhile, in the WSJ piece about Biden calling Zi a dictator:

    'China uses the word “dictatorship” in Article 1 of the national constitution—to emphasize that people are in charge. “The People’s Republic of China is a socialist state under the people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants,” says the nation’s constitution.'

    Maybe Biden is jealous and was trying to pay his counterpart a compliment.

    1. MWAocdoc   2 years ago

      Naw, but maybe he was wishing there were more workers and peasants in the US to justify the democratic dictatorship alliance.

  18. MWAocdoc   2 years ago

    It's more than just, "the public has already paid for all those search and rescue vehicles!" Those vehicles are primarily intended to rescue sailors in submarines who also undertake significant risks in the ocean deeps to protect America against attack and fight our wars. Every risky search and rescue mission represents practice that our rescue specialists can't get any other way. When the Army was winding down at the end of the Vietnam War they had way too many personnel, so my active reserve unit - the 273d Medical Detachment - was part of a military-civilian cooperation project called Military Assistance to Safety and Traffic (MAST) and we responded to auto wrecks in remote parts of Texas to dustoff the victims back to tertiary trauma centers. There is a long and proud tradition in the military that way and it has nothing whatever to do with the cost to the public.

    1. jimc5499   2 years ago

      Well said. Former Navy SAR Swimmer here.

    2. mtrueman   2 years ago

      "Over four days, the Russian Navy repeatedly failed in its attempts to attach four different diving bells and submersibles to the escape hatch of the submarine. Its response was criticised as slow and inept. Officials misled and manipulated the public and news media, and refused help from other countries' ships nearby. President Vladimir Putin initially continued his vacation at a seaside resort in Sochi[1] and authorised the Russian Navy to accept British and Norwegian assistance only after five days had passed. Two days later, British and Norwegian divers finally opened a hatch to the escape trunk in the boat's flooded ninth compartment, but found no survivors."

      Wikipedia's article on the Kursk disaster. The article doesn't mention the American offer to help, if memory serves.

  19. Eeyore   2 years ago

    I'm guessing they are dead, so they really can't be shamed. Worst case you make yourself sound a fool.

    Those idiots that went up on the space shuttle however. Am I right?

    1. NOYB2   2 years ago

      The space shuttle was actual science, engineering, and exploration.

      These people were tourists on a badly designed craft built by someone who believed that diversity was more important than competence.

      1. jimc5499   2 years ago

        The Space Shuttle was a lesson in political games, mismanagement and complacency.

        1. TJJ2000   2 years ago

          Apparently to some it was a just an excuse to grow political games, mismanagement and complacency. The only ?learning? they ever do is was how to beat things with a hammer (destroy) and then complain they don't work so they have to go STEAL something that does.

          Imbeciles.

        2. Set Us Up The Chipper   2 years ago

          ...and yet the Space Shuttle was one of the greatest machines ever made.

        3. TryLogic   2 years ago

          ++

        4. Eeyore   2 years ago

          Come on now. It was the greatest .. I mean greatest .. white collar welfare program of all time.

      2. Eeyore   2 years ago

        I'm not making excuses for the company operating this cluster fuck. Then again this is a highly risky thing to do, even if you do it right. Personally I would only risk a drone for this kind of dive.

  20. NOYB2   2 years ago

    Don’t Shame the OceanGate Crew for Taking Huge Risks

    Yes, I do. Those people were in the tourism business, not the exploring business. They charged $250000 per tourist. And they were placing DEI (DIE?) ahead of competence and experience.

    All five are deserving of a Darwin award.

    And nobody is going to repay the tax payers for the money wasted on attempts to rescue them.

    1. TryLogic   2 years ago

      As far as US Coast guard ships go - all that equipment was being used and those folks paid, no matter what part of the ocean they're sailing around on. If they're working a rescue, I'm going to call that an acceptable use. We're paying for the service - think of it as training if it makes you feel better.

      1. MWAocdoc   2 years ago

        Well said!

        1. NOYB2   2 years ago (edited)

          Yeah, an economic ignoramus and medical doctor would think that.

      2. NOYB2   2 years ago

        That is utter nonsense. The extensive activities, specialized equipment, overtime, etc. cost of lot of extra money compared to regular training.

        In addition, there is no need for the Coat Guard to train for this kind of operation, ever. If you go on submarine rides, you ought to provide for your own rescue.

        1. Me, Myself and I   2 years ago

          Well, what if they're rescuing people in the US Navy?
          If the Coast Guard can't rescue them, the US loses military workers, which will reduce their numbers advantage.

          1. NOYB2   2 years ago

            It isn't cost-effective to train and equip the Coast Guard to perform the rescue of submariners, but obviously, it can and should be used to rescue Navy sailors at sea, and civilian boaters in US water.

            The Coast Guard should not be used to rescue civilians in international waters, or to conduct any kind of specialized operations like rescuing submariners; equipping the Coast Guard for such purposes would be a waste of tax dollars.

    2. mtrueman   2 years ago

      "And nobody is going to repay the tax payers for the money wasted on attempts to rescue them."

      Maybe they should pay a bond before they take a risky trip or buy insurance. If they are rescued alive and well, then repayment is possible. If they die, the bond or insurance should do the job.

      1. NOYB2   2 years ago

        I think the Coast Guard should not engage in submarine rescues, and limit other rescues to US waters by US tax payers (or nations committed to reimburse us).

        1. mtrueman   2 years ago

          Can't private insurance companies take care of this? Or is this like liability in the nuclear industry or internet platforms where insurance doesn't work?

          1. NOYB2   2 years ago

            There is a huge opportunity cost associated with just having the capability to perform such rescues; so having insurance and have the insurance pay back the Coast Guard is not sufficient, because the opportunity cost will not, and cannot be, accounted for.

            If you're asking whether private insurance should be able to pay private rescue services, then, of course, it should be.

            I think it's fine if government agencies perform SAR of private recreational parties IF they have the capabilities as part of other operations that are clearly part of their ordinary functions and IF they charge market rates for those services.

            Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with the forest service or the coast guard to say: "you went out there voluntarily, you deal with the consequences, it's not our problem".

  21. Moderation4ever   2 years ago

    Is the news coverage any different than when a death occurs on an amusement park ride, or when a group of climbers dies on a high mountain? There are always the questions of were there enough safety measured taken.

    As for the expense of the rescue, again people will always try to help in an emergency it just our nature, we don't leave people to die. Lots of money will be spent. The upside is the real-life training rescuers get and things learned that may help in the future. Will upside-cover benefits cover the expenses, no. It is something though.

    1. jimc5499   2 years ago

      I find it interesting that hikers and climbers will go into a closed off area, get in trouble and then bitch about how long it took for them to be rescued.

      1. TJJ2000   2 years ago (edited)

        ^^^ BINGO ^^^. Thwarting personal responsibility and then using a GUN against those ‘icky’ people and make them pay for one’s own stupidity. It’s all about unjustly shifting consequences.

        Sadly the more it happens the more it will happen; the climb to the top of the *entitlement* totem-pole. At the end of the day accounts will have to settle though. What goes up must come down.

        1. jimc5499   2 years ago

          My main problem with it is that some times the rescuers get killed or injured.

          1. MWAocdoc   2 years ago

            That's why we call them heroes ... going into harm's way on purpose to try to help.

            1. NOYB2   2 years ago

              You're not a "hero" for doing your job.

  22. Fist of Etiquette   2 years ago

    I can't believe OSHA let us step onto the moon without an inspection first.

    1. markm23   2 years ago

      NASA didn't sell seats on the LEM to tourists. Oceangate wasn't exploring, it was running a tour boat.

      Don't blame the paying customers for perhaps not understanding all the risks. Do blame the one man who was both the crew and the company CEO for doing so little to reduce the risks.

    2. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

      OSHA didn't yet exist in 1969 or they would have.

  23. TJJ2000   2 years ago

    The complete stupidity in believing threatening aggressive Gov-Guns will save you... Sure, sure; because saving people is always what aggressive 'guns' are made of.

    Ironically; If it wasn't for aggressive/progressive gun (gov-gun) worshiping there wouldn't be death by defensive gun usage either. Aggressive gun worshipers ARE the very crown of the problem.

    And contrary to leftard indoctrination; that's all 'government' is. A monopoly of gun force. Law/Regulation means nothing unless it is backed by death threats.

  24. emkcams   2 years ago

    It would be interesting to know the incremental cost of the current search and rescue operation. That is, some of the equipment and government organizations involved are already paid for to some extent. Both the equipment and personnel are regularly involved in training and field exercises (an analogy are the current war games that NATO is executing) and something like this can provide a valuable substitute or extension of those activities. That said, what are the additional costs incurred by this particular activity beyond normal readiness and training?

    1. jimc5499   2 years ago

      In the 80's a 12 year old boy needed a kidney transplant. A donor was found in Boston, but, the boy was in Florida. A Navy helicopter (SH-3H) flew to a field near the Boy's house. The loaded up him and his Mother. They flew to a Naval Air Station where a jet was waiting. The jet (S-3 Viking) flew them to Boston. After the transplant, some of the local Florida media started talking about the waste of "taxpayer" money. The Commanding Officers of the squadrons shot them down by listing the training that was accomplished.
      The helicopter:
      Test of the emergency recall of the Duty Section.
      Rapid preparation of the aircraft and the briefing of the crew.
      Cross country flight navigating to a remote location.
      Landing and take-off from a remote rough field.
      Cross country to specified airfield.
      The jet:
      Test of the emergency recall of the duty section.
      Rapid preparation of the aircraft and the briefing of the crew.
      Flight to an unknown airfield through controlled and restricted airspace.
      The amount that was spent, would have been spent on training anyway. Doing what you are trained to do and saving a life is priceless.

    2. Dale   2 years ago

      One of the big costs will be the fuel used by the ships and planes to get to the remote location and remain there. Then there is the fact they are not accomplishing the scheduled tasks, which still need to take place. It's not just military, what about the costs to the Bahamian research vessel, Deep Energy and the French ship Atalante. Sonars buoys deployed do not get recovered.

  25. TD   2 years ago

    Actually, Magellan’s voyage did pay off. True, he was killed and only one ship made it around the world, but it carried enough spices back from the east to Spain to ultimately make the voyage profitable.

    1. Public Entelectual   2 years ago

      You mean Elcano's voyage- Magellan was killed halfway through.
      Elcano's namesake, the Spanish Navy four master built in 1928 may be the highest milage sailing ship in history, as she's closing in on two million miles after circumnavigating more or less annually for nine decades.

  26. Its_Not_Inevitable   2 years ago

    A couple of random thoughts.
    So are they saying things built to regs never fail?
    Did these passengers never pay any taxes that pay for these services?
    Not exactly the same, but brings to mind those will say that a hot day in the summer is proof of global warming, or a strong storm in the winter is proof of climate change. Or any kind of weather not hitting the average is proof that we need to stop using fossil fuels.

  27. John Gall   2 years ago

    Can you do something, so stupid, so fool-hardy that you don't deserve mercy?

    Smokers don't according to many of the self-righteous, which means fatties are next. When did progressives and [il]libertarians breaking bread?

    Should I change my name?

    1. NOYB2   2 years ago

      Can you do something, so stupid, so fool-hardy that you don’t deserve mercy?

      How does "mercy" apply?

      Mercy is a concept that refers to compassionate treatment of those in distress, especially when it is within one's power to punish or harm them.

      Smokers don’t according to many of the self-righteous, which means fatties are next.

      According to libertarians, the cost of smoking and obesity shouldn't be socialized by the government, in large part so that people avoid smoking and getting fat.

      Libertarians don't object to mercy, compassion, or charity. However, all of those concepts and actions necessarily take place without government involvement. That is, it is impossible to exercise mercy, compassion, or charity via the government.

  28. Truthteller1   2 years ago

    Equating this to Magellan is completely idiotic. Great work reason.

    1. Public Entelectual   2 years ago

      How many round trips did Titan make before she folded?

  29. JAFO   2 years ago

    Statists gonna "state". It's all they know.

  30. mtrueman   2 years ago

    "Don't Shame the OceanGate Crew for Taking Huge Risks"

    Yes it is shameful to take huge risks for such paltry rewards. The submarine had no capacity to recover any of the Titanic's sunken treasures. Presumably the plan was to dive down to the bottom of the ocean and return empty handed, except for the ability to make the frivolous boast of having done so.

  31. Malvolio   2 years ago

    If the assumption at OceanGate was that they could take a chance on their experimental vessel because the Coast Guard (and taxpayers) would always be there to save them, then the company was inappropriately trying to socialize their losses.

    They were appropriately trying to socialize their losses.

    Just because someone else is stupid enough to give me money does not mean I have to be stupid enough to turn it down.

  32. The Margrave of Azilia   2 years ago (edited)

    I see most of the comment section thinks the guy was extremely reckless (at minimum).

    His recklessness is nevertheless going to be held up as an example of the dangers of too little regulation.

    If the “50 y/o white guys” quote is genuine, will the media be focusing on that, too?

    I can see the headline - "ghoulish conservatives pounce at dead guy's DEI commitment."

  33. BigT   2 years ago

    These guys paid the ultimate price for their thrill seeking. They may have been stupid, but they weren't riskingyour lives, only their own.

    Focusing on DEI rather than competence will do similar things to the rest of society.

    1. NOYB2   2 years ago

      The focused on Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity...

  34. TangoDelta   2 years ago

    Well I guess that's that then - game over.
    https://apnews.com/article/missing-titanic-submersible-updates-6255308420cb542fab287224c3e9b1c1

  35. ejhickey   2 years ago

    They were gone 5 days ago. At least the story was kept alive so the media could continue its breathless coverage

    1. TangoDelta   2 years ago

      Well yeah. That's the entire point of these types of stories. It's to keep something on the front page so the evil, embarrassing, and reckless bull shit they're trying desperately to hide is buried below the fold on page 22 below an ad for female incontinence.

      The lesson is all about knowing how to read Pravda.

      1. Oafish   2 years ago

        The new opiate for the masses.

  36. Public Entelectual   2 years ago

    An oceanographer friend keeps what appears to be a dense white plastic thimble on his desk.

    It started life as a styrofoam coffee cup left in a deck locker on a submersible that dove to the bottom of the Cayman trench,

  37. NOYB2   2 years ago

    From the latest info, it appears that they lost buoyancy or motor control halfway down to the bottom, then likely dropped to fast. Hitting bottom probably damaged or instantly destroyed the carbon fiber hull. Whether that was the actual scenario, we may never know for certain, but it is certainly a likely one. Loss of motor control could have been due to anything, from the handheld controller to a faulty battery or shorts.

    There were some obvious design problems:

    - the sub should have been completely built out of steel, a material that is well understood and easy to test in these applications
    - all vital functions should have had purely mechanical linkages
    - the electrical motors should have been operated from inside the sub using traditional electro-mechanical controls, with batteries and all wiring accessible from inside the sub
    - there should have been multiple redundant communications systems, locator beacons, and manually deployable buoys
    - there should have been tethers during the descent, and preferably during the ascent and even the entire trip
    - there should have been two or three separate compartments and more volume
    - there needed to be far more testing

    1. NOYB2   2 years ago

      (But what do I know... I'm just an over-50 cis white guy who analyses risk for a living.)

      1. mtrueman   2 years ago

        "But what do I know…"

        Presumably a lot more than anyone who's not an over 50 cis white guy.

      2. Oafish   2 years ago

        Too much for “innovation”, presumably.

  38. Big Ed's Landing   2 years ago

    It's one thing for explorers, engineers, scientists, et. al. to take risks in the name of furthering knowledge and experience in their field. It's an entirely different thing to be charging non-professional people for extremely dangerous thrill rides.

    1. NOYB2   2 years ago

      It's perfectly fine for anybody to take whatever risks they like. Riding a motorcycle and sex are dangerous too.

      What isn't fine is for people to socialize the risk. That is, when the sub disappeared, the US government should simply have said "what a shame" and left it at that.

  39. TheReEncogitationer   2 years ago

    Folks, if OceanGate hired anyone of any brains and ability, they would have built a submarine drone controlled with Artificial Intelligence on the surface and saved the five lives lost. End of story.

    1. Roughneck   2 years ago

      So, if we want to see something up close that might be dangerous and life-threatening, we just send our robot instead?

    2. markm23   2 years ago

      Oceangate was selling $250K tickets to physically go down there, not to sit in a darkened room on the shore and watch the camera feed from a drone.

  40. Roughneck   2 years ago

    Shoulda hired some former U.S. Navy submariners, over 50 with white hair.

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