Florida's Restrictions on Property Purchases by Chinese Citizens Hark Back to a Dark History of Xenophobia
In a federal lawsuit on behalf of legal U.S. residents from China, the ACLU argues that "Florida's New Alien Land Law" is unconstitutional.

In 1913, three decades after Congress approved the Chinese Exclusion Act, California prohibited Chinese and other Asian immigrants from owning land. More than a dozen other states, including Florida, enacted similar "alien land laws" during the next few decades.
S.B. 264, which Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a Republican, signed into law this month, bears more than a passing resemblance to those xenophobic edicts, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) argues in a federal lawsuit it filed yesterday in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida. "This law is unconstitutional," the ACLU's complaint says. "It violates the equal protection and due process guarantees under the U.S. Constitution; it intrudes on the federal government's power to superintend foreign affairs, foreign investment, and national security; and it recalls the wrongful animus of similar state laws from decades past—laws that were eventually struck down by courts or repealed by legislatures."
DeSantis portrays S.B. 264, which sharply restricts land ownership by Chinese citizens, as part of the state's efforts to contain the influence of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). But the plaintiffs represented by the ACLU, who live in Florida legally but do not have green cards, have nothing to do with the CCP. They have been working or studying in the United States for years and are dismayed by the arbitrary, nationality-based rules that suddenly stand in the way of their plans to buy residential property.
Among other things, S.B. 264 restricts real estate purchases by Chinese citizens who are neither U.S. citizens nor legal permanent residents. Effective July 1, it prohibits them from buying agricultural land or any property within 10 miles of a "military installation" or "critical infrastructure facility." Those terms are "so broadly defined," the ACLU notes, that they "bar affected individuals from being able to purchase property across much of the state." The restrictions, it says, "will have the net effect of creating 'Chinese exclusion zones' that will cover immense portions of Florida, including many of the state's most densely populated and developed areas."
Those provisions also apply to other people "domiciled in a foreign country of
concern"—a category that includes Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, Iran, Syria, and North Korea as well as China. If they hold non-tourist visas, those people are allowed to buy one residential property in Florida, provided it is less than two acres and is not within five miles of a military installation. The ACLU notes that "there are more than a dozen military installations in Florida, many of them within five miles of city centers like Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville, Pensacola, Panama City, and Key West."
Previously owned properties must be registered with the state, and owners who fail to comply are subject to civil penalties of $1,000 a day. Any property purchased in violation of the new rules is subject to civil forfeiture, and buyers generally are guilty of a second-degree misdemeanor, punishable by up to 60 days in jail and a maximum $500 fine. Anyone who knowingly sells land to a prohibited buyer is subject to the same penalties. But the penalties are much more severe when the buyer is a Chinese citizen: Buyers are guilty of a third-degree felony, punishable by up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine, while sellers are committing a first-degree misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine.
In a May 8 press release, DeSantis said the law targets the CCP. "Florida is taking action to stand against the United States' greatest geopolitical threat—the Chinese Communist Party," he declared. "I'm proud to sign this legislation to stop the purchase of our farmland and land near our military bases and critical infrastructure. …We are following through on our commitment to crack down on Communist China." The plaintiffs challenging S.B. 264 are understandably puzzled by that rationale.
Yifan Shen, who works as a registered dietician and holds an H-1B visa for "specialty occupations," has lived in the United States for seven years, the last four in Florida. "She is not a member of the Chinese government or of the Chinese Communist Party," the ACLU notes. In April, she signed a contract to purchase a home in Orlando as her primary residence. That property "appears to be located within ten miles of a critical infrastructure facility and within five miles of a military installation." Because the expected closing date is after July 1, the complaint says, Florida's law "will prevent Ms. Shen from acquiring her new home," so she "stands to lose all or part of her $25,000 deposit."
Zhiming Xu, who applied for asylum after he was "persecuted by the Chinese government and had to flee to the United States," is in a similar situation. He has lived in the United States for four years and works as a manager of short-term rental properties. This year he signed a contract to buy a home near Orlando that "appears to be located within ten miles of a critical infrastructure facility." He "stands to lose all or part of his $31,250 deposit" if S.B. 264 takes effect.
Another plaintiff, Xinxi Wang, holds an F-1 visa for international students and is pursuing a doctorate in earth sciences at a Florida university. She already owns a home in Miami but would be forced to register it under S.B. 264, a requirement the ACLU describes as "burdensome, discriminatory, and stigmatizing."
Yongxin Liu, an assistant professor of data science who holds an H-1B visa and has lived in Florida for four years, likewise would have to register his home near Daytona Beach. S.B. 264 would nix Liu's plan to buy a vacation home for him and his parents near Pelican Bay.
The ACLU also represents Multi-Choice Realty, a real estate brokerage that, like the other plaintiffs, has no connection to the CCP. The company, which specializes in serving Chinese-speaking clients, worries that Florida's new restrictions will disrupt its business by disqualifying many of its potential customers. The complaint adds that S.B. 264 is apt to encourage broader discrimination against "people of Chinese descent even for transactions that are permitted, as sellers will seek to broadly avoid Chinese buyers given the criminal penalties imposed for selling property in violation of the new law."
Even leaving aside the fact that these plaintiffs are not CCP agents, the Chinese menace perceived by DeSantis seems chimerical. In 2022, the complaint notes, "Chinese buyers were involved in only 0.1 percent of all real estate purchases in Florida—they purchased only one out of every 1,000 residential properties sold in the state. Chinese buyers did not even crack the top-ten list of foreign buyers by country in 2022, with Chinese buyers constituting no more than two percent of all foreign buyers."
DeSantis has "presented no evidence that Chinese buyers of property in Florida are agents of the Chinese Communist Party or have caused harm to national security," the ACLU says. "Indeed, the State of Florida has failed to identify any nexus between real estate ownership by Chinese citizens in general and purported harm to national security."
DeSantis wants us to believe that preventing a dietician, a property manager, or a professor from buying property in Florida, based purely on their national origin and non-immigrant status, somehow strikes a blow against "the Chinese Communist Party" and "crack[s] down on Communist China." But it is hard to see why innocent people should suffer for the crimes of an oppressive regime they left behind.
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The day the Yuan floats openly on the international market I might be persuaded otherwise, but as long as their currency is tightly controlled you'll have a hard time convincing me allowing Chinese to buy property in the United States is a good thing.
Nothing to do with xenophobia, it's basic economics. We all have to be working in the same market for economic forces to balance, and they decidedly are not.
This guy is a legal resident, working here and buying property in US dollars. Tough noogies for him then, I guess?
Want the list of legal Chinese residents who have ended up as spies?
One exception doesn’t make a broad policy bad.
You continue to be an idiot. Ask Africa how ceding up critical resources to China is working out.
Or Pakistan
https://reason.com/2022/09/27/for-florida-gov-ron-desantis-political-stunts-are-more-important-than-substance/ and
https://reason.com/2022/09/21/are-ron-desantis-migrant-flights-legal/
Ass POTUS, DeSatan will be forcing USA taxpayers to trick and ferry billions upon brazilians of sub-Brazilians from Brazil to Botswana, and to deport illegal sub-Martians from Mars to Uranus! Ass long ass the illegal Martians SUFFER-SUFFER-SUFFER, red-meat-hungry socons and troglodytes will be DELIGHTED to spend those extra tax dollars! Butt I for one think that illegal Martians are intelligent beings, too, and hope that they will NOT suffer on Uranus, from too many foul odors, etc.!
DeSatan… SPEAKS to me! Get Thee behind me, DeSatan!
Scienfoology Song… GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers
DeSatan loves me, This I know,
For DeSatan tells me so,
Little ones to GAWD belong,
We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan loves me, yes indeed,
Makes the illegal sub-humans bleed,
Protects me for geeks and freaks,
I LOVE to pay taxes, till my wallet squeaks!
PUNISH Disney, I’ll PAY for their pains,
Ass long ass DeSatan Blesses our gains!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan expels the low-lifes to Venus,
Moves them ANYWHERE, with His Penis!
His Penis throbs with His Righteousness,
Take no heed, He says, of His Frighteousness!
ALL must be PUNISHED, they say!
So never, EVER be or say gay!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
Our USA taxes must PAY The Way, He may say,
To EXPORT the illegal Mars aliens, every day!
To Pluto, Jupiter, or Uranus, they must ALL go!
Oh, the places that the low-lifes will go, you must know!
The taxes we shall pay? Through the money, we must BLOW!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
(If we did NOT do-doo, doo-doo-doo, ALL of this, then that them thar illegal Mars aliens WILL show up on OUR doors, in the formerly pure USA!!! We MUST keep them AWAY, far away, out in the Deep Dark Yonder!)
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
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Unhinged. Unhinged comes to mind. Unhinged and in dire need of meds.
Seriously, get help.
It's Sqrlsy. He's always unhinged.
Does to be unhinged imply that at one time the person was "hinged"?
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All of those who disagree with MEEEE are… Mentally ILL!!! YES, this! Good authoritarians KNOW this already!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
All of the GOOD totalitarians KNOW that those who oppose totalitarianism are mentally ill, for sure!!!
That was truly beautiful, thank you so much for posting that.
Groomer Jeffy would love for his ChiCom friends to take over this country.
Want the list of legal Chinese residents who have ended up as spies?
Yes please. I mean, I think it's a great idea to punish someone preemptively...you know just in case...but I work with a lot of Chinese residents so I want to check the list to see how many are spies.
The irony, of course, is that the same people who get upset when people assume all conservatives are racist bigots, are perfectly fine with assuming all Chinese are communist spies.
If I read the terms of the lw correctly being a legal resident brings an exception to the prohibition of buying property here. Thats fair.
s to the few who "stand to lose their deposits" I believe a strong legal case can be made that the acquisition has already been made as it is under contract. The terms of that contract are binding on all involved parties.
I also have no problem with such not yet legal residents SHOULD be barred from owning properties that fall outside the list of conditions. Anyone else here remember a few years back when the Chinese had taken up or were in process of sodoing, cintrol of the Ports of Long beach and/or San Pedro? Feds stepped in and said NO WAY and blocked thta going forward. They already own/control the Panama Canal. Sad day that was. If they decide to start turning down the thumbscrews, our already skyrocketing costs of ocrean shipping will climb even higher.
Wasn't there a case not long ago where in Montana some guys were caught flying their very capable drones over and near a ilitary base for reasons not yet known. WHY? If they wanted to buy a house to use as a contrl base, on the sly, what/who could stop them? What secrets WERE observed by those chinese "weather" balloons? And even if nothing sensitive was captrued THAT TIME what says next time win't hit a very sensitive and valuable jackpot?
Nope. If a guy is not a documented legal resident, no home ownership especially within the sensible boundaries sett down in this just law.
I also find it disturbing that the very same ACLU fuming over the "burden and stigma" of registering their foreign occupied dwellings in Florida are also fuming mad that I do not have to regiuster my lawfully owned, stored, and used firearms. They want me to "register" them.For why? I am a US citizen born and raised here. Any bets those same chinese citizens don't have to tell their gummit when they buy a home? I KNOW they have to tell them when they buy a gun, as the government will want to come and take it. As they do.
I also have no problem with such not yet legal residents SHOULD be barred from owning properties that fall outside the list of conditions.
Why, because you think they MIGHT be spies?
This is the same rationale that the gun grabbers use to try to restrict gun ownership for certain guns. "Because they MIGHT be used in mass shootings."
Keep in mind, this law restricts private property owners from selling their private property to private individuals. It is not government property. If the government thinks that some piece of property is so sensitive that it should not be owned by someone it might not trust, then the government should buy the property itself. Like with military bases.
You are raising the same paranoid security fears that justify the security/surveillance state that we now have. Someone MIGHT use a drone to fly over a military base, therefore all drones must be restricted. Someone MIGHT use a house as a safe house for foreign spies therefore all property sales must be restricted and monitored. It is a restriction on everyone's liberty based on paranoid fears that serve only to empower government to spy on us all.
. But the plaintiffs represented by the ACLU, who live in Florida legally but do not have green cards,
No standing to sue.
No no. True liberty is ceding power to authoritarian countries that don't respect your liberty.
No no. True liberty is FUCKING OVER those who FLEE the shithole, anti-liberty nations, and become JUST LIKE THE OTHER ANTI-FREEDOM, SHITHOLE NATIONS!!! If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em, right, right-wing wrong-nuts?
Odd that Xi doesn’t believe in land ownership, except the Chinese Communist Party’s ability to own it all and collect rent.
Vladimir Putin’s wealth: $1.4bn mansion, 700 cars, 58 aircraft, and more
In 2017, financier Bill Browder claimed Vladimir Putin is worth $200 billion. He testified before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee and said Putin was the “richest man in the world” as a result of “terrible crimes” his government committed
You have to understand that the ACLU, among other organizations, thinks the Constitution should be a suicide pact. I mean, really, is there is reason why illegal aliens and infiltrators should not have all (and perhaps a few extra more) rights and benefits than American citizens do? A good friend of mine participated in the foreign student exchange program hosting a Chinese high school student, and could not wrap his mind around the fact that any Chinese citizen who is permitted to sojourn in the United States and then return without penalty to Red China [purposely chosen term] is in fact an infiltrator and an information gatherer, or to be described in fewer words, a spy.
Of course the American Communist Lovers Union would support the CCP owning land in the U.S.
This is not the same as yesterday. Today's China is trying to undermine America! You can't allow the enemy to use our laws to destroy our country! This is an idiotic take on the Chinese people buying property. It's just like the lie that we need to import immigrants because Americans are not having babies. They are, but we are killing them with the dumb abortion laws. You need people? Then have babies!
What about the libertarian principle of allowing the property owner to sell to the highest bidder?
Fine.
Except if they made money in Yuan, which is not traded on the international market, are they REALLY the highest bidder?
Here is the issue. Pretend I'm a country using Stuckinbucks (SIB) instead of Remnibi here. I issue them and declare their value. For years I get to trade internationally using SIB to buy my dollars and now I have massive new infrastructure and internal markets with lots of SIB flowing.
If I'm, say, Japan, or Canada, or England, all that economic growth would mean a massive change in valuation of the yen/loonie/pound, and there'd be danger of massive internal inflation. Feedback mechanisms that allow markets to determine prices. We're talking gdp growth up to 30% per capita here in some years, averaging 15-20% every year. That's a massive amount of buying power that didn't exist before, and by comparison the US runs like 3-5% per capita gdp grown in the same era.
But my SIB currency is pure fiat and I just declare that it is worth .15 USD and if it gets more to than 16 or less than 13 cents I just stop trading. Even though my per capita GDP growth is routinely 4x-5x the dollar.
It's like magic. I can mint millionaires in US dollars, spending massive amounts of money, and the SIB is worth -- 15 cents. Because I say so. And I buy steel, and oil, and all the rest of my goodies in dollars. And I don't have the concurrent inflation internally, even with millions of citizens suddenly having massively more spending power. Because I say so.
Now, let's talk about libertarian principles of selling to the highest bidder. You, as an owner before I massively overvalued my currency, can cash out. But the rest of Americans, mostly the ones trying to enter the market, get fucked because my people trade in SIBs and I've effectively decoupled any feedback mechanisms.
What's the libertarian principle of fair trading against a command economy?
TL:DR : I'm not playing by the rules against someone who gets to play Calvinball
We are talking about people who live and work in the United States. They get paid in dollars, just like Americans do, and want to use those dollars to buy homes. Exchange rates have no part in that.
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I be he is also okay with the ccp buying tons of land around us military bases
"They have been working or studying in the United States for years . . . "
Look up the definition of 'deep penetration agent'.
OK Sullum, now do Canada.
Trudeau means well, not like those MAGA fuck Floridians.
The Chinese are buying up land for critical resources. Whether farming or to spy on military bases. We saw during covid how bad a dependency on foreign actors without our best interests act.
Libertarianism doesn't require one to be stupid. Security is a cost. Supply chain risk is a cost. Foreign regulations of an industry are a cost.
Maybe reason needs some writers that have actually worked in a business under these various aspects so they stop being so naive.
The state of Fl can put in a higher bid if they want the land so bad. Otherwise fuck off land grabbers.
Let's start at step one.
Is risk a cost. Yes or no? Depending on your answer we can move to step 2.
Seeing as we all just rent the land from the government, the ship of them deciding things about that land sailed long ago.
Better yet, the state can condemn the property and take it for free.
Vancouver is a lesson in buying physical property, collecting rent, then sending it back to the CCP. Enriching the commies while manipulating the currency. Sometimes they keep the cash and Chinese New Year gatherings can get a little, um, sketchy.
They're probably buying US property to have someplace to go when China cracks down on them. Wouldn't you?
They've massively invested in farmland, actually.
There was some offshoring of money pre Xi crackdown. When Dodd-Frank made it so regular Americans couldn't get a mortgage there were times when 30% of all home sales in Orange County were foreign, mostly Chinese. This was about a decade ago.
But, as I said above, that was with a massively overvalued chinese currency and these freshly minted millionaires were buying real property overseas at bargain prices post-2008. The BULK of the US purchases have been industrial and especially agricultural. Again, bought with fiat currency that is massively overvalued compared to those that trade freely.
Libertarianism doesn’t require one to be stupid.
The axiomatic form does. The heuristic version, which I see you've happily adopted here, accepts that in the real world one can't always stand on principle. Let's see how consistent you are in other situations.
Do you think that the US should be spending money on buying up foreign critical/strategic resources, or should we leave this to the private sector? The tenor of your posts here suggests the former, but I would hesitate to conclude that this is what you believe.
It is up to the countries in which those resources subside.
You may not know this shrike, but the US has a lot of natural resources of their own.
Still not shrike, you cracker cunt.
I can recommend this link: https://eos.org/features/meeting-the-mineral-needs-of-the-united-states
And if the US does have all these resources, then why do you care if the Chinese are buying up stuff in other countries? Your POV makes no sense.
"Florida's New Alien Land Law"
I agree that aliens shouldn't be allowed to buy land in the USA. The only solution is to re-elect Trump so he can build the dome. And make Jupiter pay for it.
https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1661090228830978048?t=2duWi0UM77VhKx-s4ZlFvw&s=19
EQUITY? The uncle of the subway attacker, Jordan Neely, who demanded that the man who subdued his nephew be sent to prison for life was just arrested for stealing purses from restaurant patrons. It turns out that while he acted as the Neely family spokesperson he was wanted by police for a pattern of grand larceny. Neely attacked police when they tried to arrest him. He is expected to be released on Monday.
[Link]
I bet those cops really wish they could still use choke holds.
the man who restrained the subway nutjob did NOT use a "choke hild". He used a head restraint technique that can cause no harm.
Just like Georgie Boy, I want to see the tox panel from the autopsy of this guy too.
Two amusing side notes: the subways have been significant;y quieter and safer since this crazyman checked out.
Good job in his relative outing himself so we all now KNOW the sort of fokes this lot are.
EXACTLY!
The coroner's report said "compression of neck", not strangulation or lack of blood flow to the brain. Both of which can occur with an improperly, or extended time, of the "sleeper hold", and would be obvious in an autopsy.
In fact, the subject appeared to be alive when they put him in the "recovery position", only to die, later at the hospital.
I expect Austin Bragg to charge the police officers involved in interfering with the Neely Family Spokesman's righteous collection of Reparations any minute now.
And then, the Department of Just Us can see if they can gin up any civil rights charges. Just in case Bragg turns out to be incompetent.
Where is it?
non-citizens are not allowed to buy property in Mexico. none.
Why do we never hear about Mexico's dark history of xenophobia exemplified by this policy of theirs?
Because nobody associates Mexico with freedom and liberty?
Because nobody associates Mexico with freedom and liberty*.*
The question mark gives the impression that you think it is, or may be, some sort of refutation of his point rather than a reinforcement of it.
Maybe the question mark means it’s a question.
They don't associate China either. Yet you want to cede property to them.
Touché.
I believe we are allowed to own land in Mexico. I have quite a few Mexican friends that tell me the Amish or Mormons or whatever subsistence farming are all over Chihuahua. I know an American who has a place outside of Cabo.
you can lease land for up to 100 years but cannot own. you need a mexican citizen to own th eland.
Can they raise the lease price, or is it fixed ?
You can sign a fixed lease.
However, technically, the government can cancel the lease if they so desire.
Generally, a 99 year lease at a fixed price is what is done, paid in full up front.
Stop paying property taxes and tell me who really owns your land.
Florida's Restrictions on Property Purchases by Chinese Citizens Hark Back to a Dark History of Xenophobia
No it doesn't you dishonest fuck. The reasons and motives now are exactly the inverse of the Chinese Exclusion Act. The problem is wealthy foreign citizens buying property and NOT moving here. Not poor Chinese trying to immigrate.
Who cares? They can’t take the land anywhere.
This is reminiscent of the “Jap scare” by the GOP of the 80s when they bought Rockefeller Center and Pebble Beach.
They bought at the top of the market and lost their ass.
You idiot, shrike. This is one of the reasons why housing is expensive, especially on the coast. Do you think it’s cool that 3x1 bungalow goes for $4 million in Compton?
Yes, it is one of many reasons. Mostly though:
Record employment increased demand substantially.
Supply chain snags from COVID delayed deliveries.
ZIRP policy until 2022 increased demand for housing.
Pent up demand.
BUT no worry, the market will price correct soon. Plus the Fed is stabbing the economy in the heart with rate hikes.
Not even establishment Democrat pet economist Paul Krugman is singing that song.
Don't worry, I've bookmarked this post to remind you of it later.
He’ll ignore it. Like he ignores the proof of his pedophilia.
“Who cares? They can’t take the land anywhere.”
Japan, Canada, Australia, the UK and New Zealand who’ve all seen it fuck up their housing markets and have been forced to enact similar rules to Florida.
But I suspect you actually know that already.
Canada is banning some foreigners from buying property after home prices surged
Restrictions on Foreigners Buying Property in Australia Explained
and
Does Japan Need to Control Land Purchases by Foreigners?
A debate on the national security implications of foreign land ownership is underway in Japan.
The Guardian - Foreign ownership of UK property must be restricted urgently
Pictures of Da Meatball keep getting better and better. He always looks like he just shit his pants in them. This one is the best yet.
But it is Donnie who actually wears the Depends safety undergarments.
Remember when Joe Biden's eyeball was deep-red with blood? Even Snopes had to admit it's 100% true.
Both eyes could look like that permanently and they'd still probably work better than his brain though.
Maybe the country will get lucky and Joe's red bloody eyes will fall out on national TV and then Donnie's Depends go into overload mode at the same time - forcing both into nursing homes and out of the race for POTUS.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
turd lies. Turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying. turd lies. Turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides
Fuck off, bigot.
Huh. Turns out Team Red isn't so good when it comes to private property rights.
They dont see non-whites, non-Christians as people.
No, they do see them as people. But they definitely believe in a hierarchy for liberty. Only those at the top of the hierarchy have a full claim to liberty. Those who are farther down, don't. And Americans > Chinese on that hierarchy.
That is evil and fascist.
You two having fun bathing in false narratives you create for people you disagree with in order to avoid the actual substance of the matter?
I have presented my principled disagreements with this law in other comments in this thread.
In this discussion, I am commenting what I believe to be a core difference between libertarians and conservatives, namely, that libertarians believe on the universality of human liberty but conservatives do not. It is a generalization, yes, bit it is not a false narrative. On issue after issue I have noticed that conservatives tend to acknowledge the liberty of some groups but not others. In particular, they tend to view foreigners as having less liberty than citizens. Look at the arguments being presented herein defending this law - it is justified because the Chinese wishing to purchase property might be spies for their government. They are willing to pre-emptively restrict the liberty of foreigners based on mere suspicion of espionage. That is a completely unlibertarian argument that they would never countenance for citizens, and rightly so. Why is that? I think it is as I described above, conservatives tend to view liberty hierarchically. Those at the top (citizens) have a greater claim to it than those lower down the hierarchy (foreigners).
Maybe I am wrong but that is my hypothesis nonetheless.
Incidentally I objected to Molly's genuinely false narrative that conservatives don't view foreigners as even people, so credit where credit is due, no?
Progressives see oppressors and oppressed, conservatives see enemies trying to tear down society, and libertarians see coercion and cooperation.
I think the difference between conservatives and libertarians you are observing is the enemies part. From the conservative point of view once someone is identified as the enemy they lose their rights. Criminals, Muslims, foreigners, gays, whatever. Libertarians see that as an excuse to use coercion.
Yes, you are essentially right I think. Take, for example, drag queens. As a rule conservatives have no problem restricting the liberty of drag queens from associating with children. It is because drag queens are lower down on the hierarchy of liberty - because they deviate so strongly from traditional cultural norms, they lose some of their claims to liberty. They are "enemies of traditional values". Look at homeless people. As a rule conservatives are in favor of strictly enforcing vagrancy laws against them, even to the point of occasionally violating their civil liberties. Why? Because homeless people are morally deficient - their poor moral character, whether it is manifested in drug addiction or simple poverty (both are, of course, according to them, entirely the fault of the individual's moral character), has led them to give up some of their liberty. They are "enemies of an orderly society". Look at atheists. As a rule conservatives would have no problem subjecting atheists to religious speech against their will (in the form of, say, prayers at compelled graduation ceremonies), but those same conservatives would rightfully object to being subjected to compelled atheistic speech against THEIR will. That is because atheists lose some of their claim to liberty because of their "poor moral choice" to forsake God. They are "enemies of a moral society".
So my hypothesis is, to the conservative mind, "normal people" have the maximum claim to liberty, where "normal" is defined of course by a traditional conservative standard. The farther away one gets from this normative standard, the less of a claim to liberty one has.
Fuck you two argue like children. Always ending with strawman arguments. Argumentation with sophistry and sophomoric examples. Never more in depth than an ideal system.
Are your arguments that fucking weak?
“As a rule conservatives have no problem restricting the liberty of drag queens from associating with children. It is because drag queens are lower down on the hierarchy of liberty”
Taste the disingenuousness.
I contend that it is true. That is why conservatives are freaked out by drag queens reading books to kids. They're "grooming kids" and "indoctrinating" them into some perverse lifestyle. So the drag queens, even if they do absolutely nothing sexually suggestive at all, don't deserve the liberty of associating with children because it is presumed that they have deviant, bad motives towards children. And that presumption is entirely based on the fact that they don't conform to the conservative view of how a man is supposed to act in public. Because a man dresses up as a woman, that man is presumed guilty of deviant perversion and should be kept far away from children.
That is why conservatives are freaked out by drag queens reading books to kids.
Any guy in a crotchless hooker outfit exposing his dick while interacting with children is a pervert and should be immediately arrested, sicko.
You know what's going on. You've been given hundreds of examples of this kind of sexual assault occurring a drag queen story hours, so you know. But you still choose to lie.
That's why I call you evil, Jeff.
foreigners as having less liberty than citizens.
Vote, sit on juries, get secret classification, get drafted, hold public office, etc
Of course they are not on an equal level as citizens, nor should they be.
But you knew that.
Let me clarify then - *fewer natural rights*, fundamental inalienable liberty.
The right to vote is not a natural right, it is a civil right - it is a right that is entirely created by government. Of course only citizens have that.
I am talking about fundamental liberties such as freedom of association or freedom of speech. All humans are endowed with these liberties by their very existence, citizens or not.
And we see in this entire discussion here, conservatives who are completely fine with taking away the *fundamental liberty* of freedom of association from Chinese citizens if they wish to purchase property from an American private property owner.
The U.S. Constitution wasn't written for foreigners.
It was written for those described in the first seven words of the document.
We the People of the United States
Where do natural rights come from again? Hint: not the Constitution
Credit for going, "no, they see them as people, just lesser people?"
Sorry, I'm not giving credit for being just a hair less hyperbolic and invective with a "nicer" false narrative of the people you politically disagree with.
And your hypothesis is wrong. Most conservatives don't have a hierarchy of people. To claim that is just self imposed ignorance in order to propaganda one's self against fellow humans.
Engage with what actual is rather than what you hypothesize your political opponents to be.
I'm so tired of this constant political positioning that everyone I disagree with is evil and doesn't have a valid basis for their positions. It's both lazy and intellectually dishonest.
Shrike is never going to fuck you, no matter how retarded you are.
Well yes, US citizens tend to put other US citizens above everyone else in the world. This is not shocking. Or new.
It seems rather obvious that most people don’t want to live in whatever anarchistic utopia you think is going to be ushered in by eliminating borders.
A foundational principle of libertarianism is that *everyone* is endowed with inalienable rights. They are a birthright for every human being.
Showing a qualitative preference for citizens over non-citizens is one thing; but when that preference extends to denying the fundamental liberty of non-citizens, that goes too far.
You are confusing rights with privileges.
Oh, right. I forgot about the rule of modern debate from the left. Throw out and don’t address the litany of valid arguments for XYZ policy and instead simply label XYZ policy as racist and theocratic and move on.
I mean, this is may be a poor policy, yet you can’t even address what’s poor about it, you just go right into talking point tribal slandering that isn’t based in reality.
Don't want abortions? You hate women! You want to allow abortions? You hate children! Yeah, sure. Only one side uses that rhetorical technique.
I mean one of those scenarios actually ends in a living thing dying…
Claiming the coming theocracy and claiming all opponents are racist as argument tactics is almost entirely found on the left. Changing the subject from what I actually said in order to claim "both sides" basically proves my point.
You don’t see anyone as people. Just drones for the neo Marxist collective.
Neither is China. Yet you want them controlling said property. Strange.
Let me see how far jeff is taking his ideals.
Currently private industries create and develop nuclear weapons. It is part of private development. Until sold off it is property of the contractor.
Should these companies be free to sell nukes to China? If not, you are admitting there is a limit to your ideal of private property. Don't be a hypocrite jeff. Agree US companies should be able to sell nukes to China.
Just one company, I believe, that does the final assembly. Certainly multiple sites involved in the creation of all of the parts that go into the package. But I don't think there are actually multiple companies doing the "manufacture" there.
I can't say for certain, but I've lived in New Mexico for a *long* time and I have a *lot* of friends in that industry.
Many various defense contractors buy assembled lethality for their uses. In Jeff's private property is sacrosanct they could sell these assembled weapons to foreign adversaries.
Jeff and sarc are required to argue from an ideal system because their ideas and arguments are so sophomoric. Empowering a foreign authoritarian power has more effect against freedom than ignoring their actions.
There are Export Control Laws that restrict you from selling or even sharing info about many technologies. I worked on a coating technology developed for aerospace applications that we could not discuss with our Japanese partners under these laws. Justified by defense applications.
Even with valid arguments against this policy to me made, you rather take a disingenuous route?
The only thing worse than this article are the comments about the article.
you included?
I thought to myself that the resident Republicans won’t defend this. That even they would see it as anti-liberty and a step too far.
Aaaaaaand as usual I gave them way too much credit.
Team Donnie is dug in. The pull of the Cult is resolute.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying. turd lies. Turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides
Donnie vs Ronnie in the Thunderdome!
When I can purchase physical LAND in China or Hong Kong, get back to me on liberty. Not the land lease thing, real land markets.
I don't think "We're freer than the PRC" is quite the defence of liberty in the US that you appear to believe.
You suggesting that foreigners shouldn’t be allowed to buy land here if you can’t buy it there?
That’s similar to trade war supporters who demand to pay more taxes on imports because foreign governments tax more and it isn’t fair.
Socialism fails in part because economic equality means the lowest common denominator, which is poverty.
If you apply that attitude and logic to laws, then the common denominator you demand will be tyranny not freedom.
It takes a special type of stupidity to believe markets become free magically if you ignore abuses by the other actors in the markets. Yet here we are.
When will you morons realize ideal systems dont exist on reality and to look past first order effects? I know it takes a few extra brain cells to consider those effects and your rather dedicate them to Vodka, but fuck off with your simpleton stylized sophistry.
You mean people who aren't idiots are against a policy of harm? We gave you multiple examples of countries who have done as Boehm asked. How is it working out for them?
No, as always you acted the childish easily-duped foil. You accuse them of lying all the time yet you never quesiton whether someone acting or posing as Republican really is. Am I a Republicsn ?
The True Test of whether or snot ye are a Rethugglican is... Do ye believe in Yer Sacred Right to be Compassionate with OTHER people's wombs?
Do ye, or are ye a RINO?!??!
Am I a Republicsn ?
Are you defending this policy and attacking Reason for being critical of a Republican? Because that’s who my comment was meant to shame. If you did’t take my comment personally then why are you bitching? If you did then you’re an asshole and I wouldn’t want to talk with you anyway.
And bookmarked. This is always sarcs argument. If you disagree with him, since he is the one true libertarian, you are republican. But don't you ever call him a fucking leftist.
Youre mentally a child in both argumentation and knowledge sarc. Spend less time here and more time reading. No this doesn't mean books on tape.
At this point, most arguments aren't based on logic; they're based on tribalism. 99% of the comments here are based on tribalism. 99% of comments anywhere are now based on tribalism. We don't live in a rational society, we live in a hate filled angry society who does all they can to find reasons to treat their fellow humans like shit. All discourse is anymore is a cesspool of righteous lecturing and gotchaisms.
Once in a while there are people worth having a conversation with.
And when we find them... We MUTE them if they disagree with us about, say, EXACTLY how many angels can dance on the head of a pin-head! Yes, this, ye Supreme Pinheads!!!
At least those without either coprophilia or rhyming mania.
And you've muted them all.
I maintain that government being in every fucking inch of our lives is what drives this.
And social media.
I wouldn't disagree with that.
what's 40 acres run me in China or NorK?
So nice that Reason is now in favor of money laundering through real estate.
Why should Trump be the only one allowed to do it?
You know, money laundering is about the only thing Fatass Donnie has never bragged that he is the best at.
Yet it might be his only real skill.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
SRG lies. SRG lies when he knows he’s lying. SRG lies when we know he’s lying. SRG lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
SRG lies. SRG is a lying pile of TDS-addled shit.
I see what you did there. Need to add a British euphemism for it.
So, folks who live here for years, work here, probably have people they consider friends or maybe even have family here, who would qualify, under the the constitution, as members of the class of folks known as "the People," can't be allowed to own their own house. Just because they tried to escape from China instead of say, England.
Yeah. So very cool.
Yes, but they're trying to contaminate our precious bodily fluids.
here you go
1 CNY to 1 USD have at the land markets.
I don’t hear much about Secret English Police stations on American soil. They don’t have zero delineation between public annd private (as do the Chinese) And they don’t have quite the duty to the Peoples Republic thing that tends to make most visiting nationals active agents.
I’m pretty sure genuine refugees understand this and would rent or jump through the necessary hoops of getting a citizen to be the name on the deed until they can become citizens.
I do think this is probably an issue for the federal gov to decide. But at this point, shits so far gone, Im willing to defer to “states as laboratories”.
And they don’t have quite the duty to the Peoples Republic thing that tends to make most visiting nationals active agents.
Are you talking about "patriotism"? Is this the duty that you speak of? Is every patriotic American traveling abroad an "active agent" of the US government?
Trump got people believing that the trade war is equally to a shooting war, and that our "enemies" bringing cheap stuff and investment capital should be treated as if they've got guns and knives.
God damn you two are retarded.
Don’t play this stupid, it doesn’t suit you.
What? Because Chinese citizens live in a country called "People's Republic of China", we are to assume that they are all loyal doctrinaire communists who love the communist government? Is that it?
Should we assume that every American is a doctrinaire capitalist who loves consumerism and guns and cheap beer? I mean, why not?
At what point can we afford Chinese citizens the dignity of being individuals?
I guess you’re going to play that stupid after all.
Chinese citizens NOT trying to flee to freedom live under the rule of totalitarian authoritarianism that would just as soon kidnap someone’s family and send them off to labor camps as weld them inside their apartments to let them die. So even the ones that aren’t full on supporters of communism (no one has an accurate bead on this number but I bet it’s at least half the country), are dejure state actors.
It’s simply not comparable to the United States, even with all of our flaws.
If they aren't even permanent residents, honestly, I don't feel that bad. Sorry. China actually is an existential threat, though admittedly a huge fucking chunk of that is our own godsdamned fault.
Also, the Jeff's basic premise is nothing like what Florida did. Permanent residents can still purchase.
There's no issue with people living here, working here, having a home here. The issue is with overseas actors using fake currency destabilizing markets and capturing infrastructure like farmland. Since their currency is fiat and fixed, the Chinese government can just declare its purchasing power so there's no feedback mechanism. Since the purchasers don't live in the country they are immune to externalities...
Here's an example. Near Phoenix, there's farmland growing very water thirsty crops. Alfalfa and other feed crops that take a lot of water. They drilled deep wells and pumped massive amounts of water from the aquifer, causing locals' wells to run dry and exceeding what can be replenished. This farmland is owned by Saudis, and the forage crops are shipped back home.
Saudi was having problems with their own water resources, so they banned this sort of farming. They did it in Arizona because they could, and they aren't local so they don't give a shit about wells going dry. They're pretty much free from the repercussions, and they can avoid all the silly laws they have to abide by in their own country.
This sort of thing is hugely different than someone living here, working here, buying a condo or a house to live in.
The problem here is not with some Saudi corporation drilling deep wells and draining aquifers dry; after all, any corporation can do that. The problem is with the lack of a market price for the water in the area. If water is such a valuable and scarce resource in Phoenix, which I imagine it is, then the market price for it should be very high. That would mean it would be prohibitively expensive to grow water-thirsty crops there. But because of screwed up government water policy, the price of water is subsidized and you get perverse incentives like “cheap water” in deserts and an economic incentive to grow alfalfa in a desert.
and they aren’t local so they don’t give a shit about wells going dry
Do you think that American corporations don’t do that because they genuinely care about the local residents and their wells? LOL. American corporations are just as capable of being shitty neighbors as Saudi corporations are. In fact, here is a list of alfalfa farms in Arizona:
https://www.manta.com/mb_45_C008B02T_03/alfalfa_farm/arizona
By my count, there are 27 of them. Only one of them is owned by the Saudis. What about the other 26? What culpability do they bear?
The problem is not foreign ownership, the problem is the fucked up water laws.
Of course. Americans should be treated like individuals. But Chinese, they can all be lumped together as basically spies and government agents. They are not afforded the dignity of being treated as individuals. Because they're foreigners.
THis time maybe you are the racist. Just because they say ‘chinese’ does not mean individuals acting on their own. The trend esp in Africa and in US Heartland is for Chinese agancies to act through ‘individuals’ So you can’t complain
Mar 1, 2023 — China owns roughly 384,000 acres of U.S. agricultural land, according to a 2021 report from the Department of Agriculture.
China is now Africa's biggest trading partner, with Sino-African trade topping $200 billion per year. Over 10,000 Chinese firms are currently operating throughout the African continent, and the value of Chinese business there since 2005 amounts to more than $2 trillion, with $300 billion in current investments.
And on the flip-side...
The USA is for sale.. Open-Borders and Foreigner land purchasing..
Reason has really gone off the deep end of their immigration policy.
What could possibly be such a curse about expecting USA land owners to be US Citizens? One thing is right; this isn't a 'State' matter. The 'Feds' should have this policy as well as Anti-Invasion measures.
They said the same thing in the 80s when businessmen from Japan, rich from selling us electronics, started buying golf courses and hotels on American soil. What happened? A whole lot of nothing. Same that's going to happen if people from China buy land here.
If you consider the state of the USA a whole lot of nothing happening; I've got a bridge to sell you in the Sarah Desert.
Jacob, if I didn't know better (and I don't) I'd say you are either so DeSantis that you just have to take a shot any time you can, or . . . . you are receiving a small stipend from the CCP. Something modest, of course.
"The ACLU also represents Multi-Choice Realty, a real estate brokerage that, like the other plaintiffs, has no connection to the CCP. The company, which specializes in serving Chinese-speaking clients..."
Well. Bless your heart!
If they wish to purchase real property in Florida, all they have to do is renounce their Chinese citizenship and become US Citizens. Not too much to ask. The same applies in Mexico and many other countries.
Look how unfree those countries are. We should be more like them.
Being an illegal alien in Mexico gets you jail time.
What the courts have done to the Constitution has turned it into a suicide pact.
*dramatic sigh*
Communities maintain many broad rights, whether libertarians like it or not, and who gets to be a member is a top one.
So Florida should do it like the enlightened Canadians, and just jack their taxes way up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_28_(British_Columbia)
So we could file this under the new Reason style-guide column of "those pesky conservatives that act like progressives"?
The problem isn't Chinese citizens with green cards. The problem is these individuals have relatives in China that can be used as hostages to force the theft of intellectual property as well as engage in signals intelligence when near defense plants or military bases. Having relatives in a brutal authoritarian regime is reason to deny a security clearance to anyone, even citizens. It is not, however, a reason to deny them the ability to buy property from a willing seller. You need to demonstrate a clear and specific risk of an unrecoverable threat. I'm not even sure that would be sufficient in a court of law.
DeSantis' clumsy way to handle this appears to be more for show than for actually protecting IP and/or national security.
He's shown himself to be a coward in that he won't attack Trump for fear of alienating Trump's supporters. He's also shown himself to be a bully who now wants to eliminate special favors to businesses that have gone "Woke". Prior to their "awakening" DeSantis had no problems with these "public-private partnerships".
Republican candidates have continually deteriorated since Barry Goldwater and I see nothing on the horizon to change that.
Kind-of like the clumsy way Invasion is being stopped at the border?
As a person who, as a younger person, ran for a state office in Calif as a libertarian I find this article NUTS. The CCP is trying to take over our country and you argue that we should let them. This kind of idiocy is why libertarians will never and never should be elected in a majority.
That you support xenophobic laws such as this (which INFRINGE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS) proves that you can run as a "libertarian" while not being a libertarian.
"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life, it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away"
Talk about Xenophobia, white and black hate is alive and well in Joy Behar's America
Joy Behar ‘Whitesplains’ Racism To Actual Black Americans Tim Scott And Clarence Thomas
xenophobia
A fear of strangers or foreigners.
A strong antipathy or aversion to strangers or foreigners
a fear of foreigners or strangers
When Trump wanted to stop covid from spreading by stopping Chinese from entering the country it was Xenophobia.
When Biden stopped Africans from entering the country to stop covid from spreading it was not Xenophobia.
That is all you need to know about Xenophobia. It is a political ruse that has nothing to do with A fear of strangers or foreigners but is made to discredit a politician someone does not like rather than explore the actual issues.
So what do you do IF there is a concerted effort by elements of the Chinese Communist Party or the People's Liberation Army to buy up specific land, specific businesses, specific industries inside the United States for their own future purposes? Pretty much every business that operates out of Communist China operates with the permission and at the direction of the CCP or PLA, there are no truly private sector companies in China these days. How much rope do you give a clear adversary to hang you with?
What's unconstitutional about this?
This law should apply to all non-citizens or Green card holders. The same should be true in all country.
There is no logical reason why non-citizens or foreign companies should be able to own land in countries. A country is for a countries people. This should be the number one rule. If a foreign national wants to buy land, they should be forced to do so with a local subsidiary or partner.
Reciprocity should always be the basis of approaching such issues, as when 19th Century treaties between Siam and the US were renegotiated in the 1920s. The US did not ask for American Citizens to have the right to own property there because California and Oregon did not allow Asians to own land. That prohibition still stands, applied to all non-Thais. PRC citizens therefore have children born to Thai surrogate mothers and daddy makes acquisitions in the Thai Citizen child’s name. As to property in China, the PRC owns all land, so a “purchase” is really only a 70 year lease which the government can terminate at will. Foreigners can acquire one residence, companies an office. Farmland, the main concern of the states’ legislation, cannot be acquired by foreigners. Reciprocity is not xenophobia, rather, it is fairness, equality, and making sure you are not a sucker.
The phrase "the Constitution is not a suicide pact" has never made more sense to me than while reading this blind-idiot article.
^This.