Tucker Carlson's Twitter Venture Tests Mainstream Media's Eroding Grip
The controversial host launches his effort at a promising moment for dissident voices.

"Will anybody be able to police what Carlson says, or is this the point? It's just a free for all?" NBC News's Tom Costello asked earlier this week of Tucker Carlson's new Twitter project, neatly summarizing the increasingly odd relationship between the mainstream media and the audience it serves. With traditional outlets shedding trust among a public that disagrees with journalists about the role of news media, a talking head publicly frets about the fired nationalist host setting up shop on a platform where he'll have to please nobody but his fans (and, presumably, advertisers).
Escaping Policing Is the Point
It's precisely that relatively free hand that drew Carlson after he was benched by Fox News.
"Speech is the fundamental prerequisite for democracy. That's why it's enshrined in the first of our constitutional amendments," Carlson announced on the platform that will host his new show. "Amazingly, as of tonight, there aren't many platforms left that allow free speech. The last big one remaining in the world, the only one, is Twitter—where we are now."
Carlson also described what he saw as flaws in the traditional media he involuntarily left behind, where Costello and company recoil at the thought of a rival escaping the gatekeepers.
"Much of what you see on television or read in The New York Times is in fact true in the literal sense. It could pass one of the media's own fact checks. Lawyers would be willing to sign off on it. In fact, they may have, but that doesn't make it true. It's not true. At the most basic level, the news you consume is a lie, a lie of the stealthiest and most insidious kind. Facts have been withheld on purpose along with proportion and perspective. You are being manipulated."
Left unsaid was that on-air, Carlson withheld his own disdain for Donald Trump, privately describing him as "destructive" and a "demonic force," while publicly catering to supporters of the former president. Those personal omissions aside, he endorsed suspicions about the media held by many Americans.
Losing Public Trust
"While 72% say national news organizations have the resources and opportunity to report the news accurately and fairly to the public, only 35% say most national news organizations can be relied on to deliver the information they need," Gallup and the Knight Foundation reported in February of this year. "Fifty percent of Americans feel most national news organizations intend to mislead, misinform or persuade the public."
The gatekeeping function—policing what people have to say, as Costello put it—is a place where Americans have significant disagreements with journalists.
"Journalists in the United States differ markedly from the general public in their views of 'bothsidesism' – whether journalists should always strive to give equal coverage to all sides of an issue," Pew Research reported last summer. "A little more than half of the journalists surveyed (55%) say that every side does not always deserve equal coverage in the news. By contrast, 22% of Americans overall say the same, whereas about three-quarters (76%) say journalists should always strive to give all sides equal coverage."
Journalists have the right to disagree with the public, of course, and to act accordingly. But then they shouldn't act surprised when the public that dislikes the way they do their jobs turns to dissident voices and to platforms that welcome those dissidents.
In the Footsteps of Media Dissidents
"Hey everyone, this is Glenn Greenwald, and I'm incredibly excited to announce that we have created a new channel on Rumble called System Update with Glenn Greenwald," the journalist best known for publicizing Edward Snowden's revelations about the surveillance state announced last year. "Rumble is a platform devoted not to a particular ideology but to defending a free internet by guaranteeing free debate and free discourse and offers an opportunity to liberate ourselves from the repression, the increasing repression, of big-tech monopolies."
Similarly, Bari Weiss moved to Substack to escape "the forced political homogenization of schools and newsrooms" after being pushed out of The New York Times. "When a person used to pick up The Times, for example, they assumed what they read in its pages was true," she commented. "It had authority and trust that it had accumulated over many decades. That trust has collapsed for a majority of Americans."
Substack offered a home to other dissident journalists including Matt Taibbi and Michael Shellenberger. Joe Rogan turned his podcast, now hosted by Spotify, into what The New York Times itself admitted is "one of the most consumed media products on the planet — with the power to shape tastes, politics, medical decisions."
Earlier media outcasts had established independent platforms. That includes Glenn Beck who founded TheBlaze (and tried to recruit Tucker Carlson). Decades before, I. F. Stone published an influential newsletter after becoming persona non grata at mainstream outlets. These efforts achieved varying degrees of success, though audiences often had to seek them out and they offered limited competition to the mainstream. That's changing as established outlets lose their hold and alternatives gain stature.
Losing Their Grip
"We are living through a historic, technology-fueled shift in the balance of power between the media and its subjects," Hamilton Nolan wrote in 2020 for the Columbia Journalism Review. "The subjects are winning. The internet in general—and social media platforms in particular—have destroyed one of the media's most important sources of power: being the only place that could offer access to an audience."
Nolan thought that was a bad thing, on the assumption that the press enforces accountability. But if you're part of the public that considers mainstream outlets untrustworthy and misleading, then you're probably delighted that the same developments eroding the traditional media's grip are also empowering dissident voices and alternative platforms to challenge traditional media.
Whether Tucker Carlson's media effort on Twitter will succeed is still to be seen. But he's trying his luck at perhaps the most promising moment in recent history to launch such an operation. Fox News's ratings have dropped since he left, suggesting loyalty to him rather than the former platform. Carlson starts with greater prominence than many independent journalists who have found success with their own projects, which bodes well for his plans. Twitter is untried as a platform for a news and commentary show, but so were Rumble, Spotify, and Substack not so long ago.
And if nobody is able to police what Carlson says, as NBC's Tom Costello frets, that may be all to the controversial host's benefit. As with many dissident media voices, his audience follows him not despite the fact that he horrifies the old guard, but because he does.
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""Will anybody be able to police what Carlson says . . . "
I humbly volunteer to be the one to police what Tom Costello says. I will review all of his proposed comments and edit them as necessary before publication or speaking.
Nice
The hope that one source of media would provide balanced objective information about any issue is gone. It never really existed.
Information has always been too valuable to share with everyone.
While we can and should criminalize lying, there is no way to force corrupt people to provide complete balanced information.
Technology provides what we need as long as we let it.
The future of communication of news information resides in websites like this one who place a subject on a podium, take a shot at explaining it, then give everyone else an opportunity to add clarity from their perspective. Through the process of intelligent debate the lies are exposed and discredited while only the truth remains untouchable.
Websites with large readership censor or don’t allow any comments because selling propaganda to bigots is too lucrative to allow debate to discredit it.
I didn’t think I’d see Roe vs Wade overturned in my lifetime either so at least I have renewed hope.
No we cannot (legally) and should not criminalize lying generally. Lying is an essential part of human social behavior and absolutely is covered by the first amendment unless it is used in service of fraud or defamation. Lying is also very hard to prove. It's not a lie if the person believes what he is saying. So go away you Nazi weirdo.
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Lying is coercion. It falsely uses the authority of truth to compel people to act in the liars interests instead of their own.
What makes you believe that coercion is necessary human communication?
Show us all where the constitution protects lying and specifically makes the exception for fraud and perjury.
You can’t because it doesn’t. You are employing coercion, lying. It isn’t necessary communication, it just suits your corrupt interest to coerce others.
It should be criminalized.
This is called intelligent debate. You can try to refute what I said as I have done to you, or you may concede that you cannot and only my statement, the truth, remains.
You're lying.
Prove it.
Are you capable of employing correctly applied logic and science in intelligent debate, to refute what I said, proving I lied?
If you demonstrate you can’t, then you are lying by making that claim.
I always forget what a raging piece of shit moron you are.
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Nope. Just being honest. Maybe if you didn’t advocate for the extermination of the Jews, things would be different.
You’re lying again Kol Nidre boy.
Can you refute this?
Can you provide a cite where I have ever done what you claim?
Can you grasp the logic that demonstrates that proving that something didn’t occur is not advocating that it should.
Of course you can’t.
You’re an unabashed Nazi who hates Jews. I mean, everyone here knows that about you.
Here’s a thought, if you don’t like being called a Jew hating Nazi, stop being one.
And the Holocaust did occur, but like your Nazi brethren, you pretend otherwise to cover your hatred of the Jews. I mean, there's a reason Nazi's called it a final solution rather than calling it the extermination of Jews. They knew is was wrong, but did it anyway. Just like you. You know it's true, but pretend otherwise to cover for your Nazi friends and cover for your hatred of Jews.
The irony is funny though how you want to criminally punish anyone who lies, yet you engage in the biggest lie of them all.
But, I wouldn't expect intellectual rigor from a potato like you.
Of course you can’t. You limp noodle. Hahaha
You demonstrate for everyone to see that you’re just another dime a dozen lying waste of skin.
Hate the sin love the sinner. When it’s a fundamental tenet of a religion to lie, that religion is evil, as are the actions of its faithful servants.
Seriously, how can you defend Nazis and hate Jews and still claim that you don't defend Nazis and hate Jews?
How are you able to lie to yourself about that so brazenly?
I couldn’t care less about Nazis or Jews, aside from their actions.
To my understanding Nazis and Jews had many similarities.
Many influential Jews over many years publicly claimed ownership of the satanic Freemason secret society bragging about their plot for global domination. They consider themselves gods “chosen people”. Look how Jews treat the Palestinians today.
Nazis belonged to the Thule satanic secret society and considered themselves the “master race”. They were forced into WW2 by coordinated Jewish boycotts intended to to just that. Jewish leaders bragged about it.
This isn’t hatred. It’s truth. I’ve proven it here and none of you liars have ever had the intelligence to try to refute it.
I’ve refuted much of the holocaust story with correctly applied logic and science.
Nobody has refuted what I’ve said.
Misek, everything you’ve raved about has been refuted here. Many times over, and also by the world at large. You’re a fringe lunatic. Even the leftist trash here don’t buy into your ravings.
"Nobody has refuted what I’ve said."
The Nazi shit makes this bullshit claim, only as a result of being intellectually unable to understand the concepts of "evidence" and "relevance". Here is a complete refutation of his claims; most of which are prima-facie laughable:
Misek’s “irrefutable” evidence shown to be largely lacking in evidence and easily refuted where we find some few scraps:
1) “There has been no objective forensic analysis at any supposed site. That means that there is no physical evidence.”
That’s a lie.
Contemporarily, there was ample evidence in carcasses, skeletons, other human remains, mounds of possessions, gold dentures, etc.
Even in 1994, comparisons cyanide ions remaining on the walls of buildings where Zyklon-B was used sparing as a fumigant and the walls of the cellars at Auschwitz shows drastic deltas: Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow: Post-Leuchter Report (archive.org)
2) “Any activity that demonstrates and shares evidence to refute the holocaust is a crime in every nation where it allegedly occurred”
Irrelevance
3) “The crucial event of the story is the cyanide gassing of millions of Jews. That never happened.”
Lie or possible attempt at sophistry; cyanide is the active ingredient in Zyklon-B.
4) “Jews have published books illustrated with pictures of themselves shirtless dragging piles of gassed bodies from the chambers to cremation ovens.
But cyanide is absorbed through the skin and NOBODY could have survived a single day of such activity much less collecting reparations into their old age reminiscing about it years later.”
Bullshit. It is possible to die from contact, but the primary cause of death from Zyklon-B is ingestion of the gas containing the cyanide.
5) “And so it goes with every bullshit story. The facts prove otherwise.”
Irrelevant attempt to poison the well; not evidence.
6) “Let’s not forget another old timey favourite.The story of Babi Yar is a popular lesson in Jewish schools described as the single largest event of the holocaust.
The lesson is that between 30,000 and 100,000 Jews were taken to a ravine in Ukraine where they were killed.
The story is told by one Jewish survivor, Dina Pronicheva, an actress who testified that she was forced to strip naked and marched to the edge of the ravine. When the firing squad shot, she jumped into the ravine and played dead. After being covered by thousands of bodies and tons of earth she dug herself out, unscathed, when the coast was clear and escaped to tell the story.
She is apparently the only person in history to successfully perform a matrix bullet dodge at a firing squad. The soldier aiming point blank at her never noticed her escape. Never walked a few steps to the edge of the ravine to finish her off.
They were stripped naked to leave no evidence. Naked she had no tools to dig herself out from under 30,000 bodies and tons of dirt.
Only after the deed was done, the nazis realized that so many bullet ridden bodies were evidence. Oops, rookie move. So they brought more Jews and millions of cubic feet of firewood to dig them up, cremate them on gravestones and scatter their ashes in surrounding fields.
There has been no forensic investigation at the site. None of the bullets allegedly burned with the bodies have been recovered. Not one shred of physical evidence of this has ever been found.
There are military aerial photographs of the area at the time but they don’t show any evidence of the narrative, no people, no equipment, no firewood, no moved earth, no tracks of any kind.
Simply stating these facts is a crime in Ukraine where the Babi Yar narrative is taught in school”
To be honest, I haven’t heard of this but as regards any of evidence with reference to the Holocaust, it says nothing at all. It is totally irrelevant.
7) “Have you ever heard of the Bletchley park decrypts of the famous German enigma machines? It was credited for turning the tide of the war as allies knew what military actions the Germans were planning.
Only released in the 1980s those translated messages included prison camp information, deaths, transfers and requests for medicines to treat illnesses. The numbers of dead don’t support the holocaust narrative of which there was also no mention of”
Cite missing for YOUR claim, but:
“Allied forces knew about Holocaust two years before discovery of concentration camps, secret documents reveal”
[…]
“The Allied Powers were aware of the scale of the Jewish Holocaust two-and-a-half years earlier than is generally assumed, and had even prepared war crimes indictments against Adolf Hitler and his top Nazi commanders…”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-before-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html
8) “Are you willingly performing the feeble mental gymnastics required to believe, as the story goes, that Germans were communicating in code about prison camps while talking plainly about their military actions with their top secret enigma machines?”
OK, this goes beyond parody, and this represents the Nazi shit’s level of gullibility.
Simply, yes, the Nazis did NOT want to broadcast to the world that they were engaged in mass-murder, as the post-war interrogations proved. If there’s ‘mental gymnastics’ here, Nazi shit just got a unanimous “1”.
9) “The numbers of dead from German enigma decrypts does align with Red Cross numbers”
Cite missing.
“The Red Cross regularly visited all prison camps. It was their job to report the cause of all deaths. They recorded a grand total of 271,000 among all camps for the entire war. It is a matter of record.
Are you performing the feeble mental gymnastics required to believe that the Red Cross were so incompetent that they were completely unaware of 95% or 5,629,000 deaths?”
Is Nazi shit so gullible as to believe the Nazis would welcome the Red Cross to the death camps? Seems so. Value as “evidence” = zero
10) “Zyklon B is an off the shelf insecticide used among other places in Prison camps to delouse clothing and bedding to save lives by preventing deadly typhus. The system used for years before the war employed heating to release cyanide gas, fans to circulate the gas and more to exhaust the chambers to make the de loused articles safe to handle.
Pictures of this equipment and the small de lousing buildings with clothing racks still exist in Prison camps. But no evidence of any gas delivery system has ever been found in the shower houses where the bullshit holocaust allegedly occurred. In fact, the story has changed to that they just threw the heat activated pellets onto the cold drainless floors in rooms full of people.
Such an inefficient method would have taken too long to kill the required number of Jews. The pellets couldn’t be spread evenly in rooms full of people. The cold drainless floors would have delayed the release of cyanide from the pellets that people would have swept away from themselves. Any dead would have released all their bodily fluids and their bodies covering the pellets. Vomit would have been added to the floor prior to entering such a room.”
Arm-waving; see about for Zyklon-B concentrations. Value as “evidence” = zero
11) “According to Martin Gilbert in his book, Holocaust Journey, the gas chambers at Treblinka utilized carbon monoxide from diesel engines. At the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi war criminals, the American government charged that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka in “steam chambers,” not gas chambers.”
Arm-waving, Value as “evidence” = zero
12) “Gasoline engine exhaust contains about ten times the carbon monoxide than diesel. Diesel exhaust is relatively safe. Even if the Diesel engines were running at their maximum of 500 ppm, death would take several hours. Far too long to support the narrative.”
One approximation, one number many assumptions, no support. Value as “evidence” = zero.
13) “If Germans had used gas engines, death would have been in a few minutes. But in the holocaust narrative for treblinka diesel was used even though they had plenty of gas for their tanks. Nuremberg still recorded that they were “steam chambers”.
Which stupid lie is more believable? You have to perform some feeble mental gymnastics to buy that.”
More arm-waving, weak attempt at well poisoning, zero evidence.
14) “Jews had been publicly claiming a holocaust of 6 million Jews in various nations no less than 166 times between 1900 and 1945. Only to coerce sympathy to raise money. Like the wastes of skin who fake cancer on go fund me pages.
The story of gassing Jews began as British propaganda to turn popular opinion against Germany. It was inspired to draw attention away from Jewish Bolshevik war crimes in Russia because that would work against allied propaganda. It also served global Jewish interests to create undeserved sympathy for Jews who had publicly organized boycotts of Germany to drive Germany to war.”
Anti-sematic rant, followed by idiotic conspiracy theory; not anywhere close to “evidence”.
15) “There is a documented letter from the head of British propaganda to the head of the war office recommending that they cease the “gassing Jews“ propaganda because there was no evidence for it and if found out would work against their propaganda efforts.”
I’ll bet there were all sorts of letters which were embarrassing during WWII. Try finding some evidence
16) “The only thing the bullshit holocaust narrative has in common with WW2 is that they were both the creation of Jews.
These Jewish leaders are admitting it. Are they lying?
“We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany”.
David A Brown, national chairman, united Jewish campaign, 1934.
“The Israeli people around the world declare economic and financial war against Germany …holy war against Hitlers people”
Chaim Weismann, the Zionist leader, 8 September 1939, Jewish chronicle.
The Toronto evening telegram of 26 February 1940 quoted rabbi Maurice l. Perlzweig of the world Jewish Congress as telling a Canadian audience that” The world Jewish Congress has been at war with Germany for seven years”.
Smells strongly of “DID YOU HEAR WHAT TRUMP SAID!!!!!”, but regardless, even if true, it is irrelevant to the question.
This is like the seventh time this feeble minded fuckwit has reposted his feeble attempt to refute what I said AFTER I ALREADY REFUTED IT POINT BY POINT.
The fuckwit hasn’t even tried to improve it.
It just repeatedly reposts it trying to sell it as refuting what I said.
You’re pathetic Kol Nidre boy.
Proof
1) Being a crime to conclude that the holocaust is refuted, no government approved study could have been objective when the conclusion is predetermined.
The polish government approved “post lecter” report simply concluded that trace amounts of cyanide were found throughout the camp and did not even address the lectern reports analysis of the extreme concentration of cyanide in the admittedly non homicidal clothing fumigation chambers that were designed to use zyklon b.
The government would have committed a crime if they had actually been objective.
Your point 1) has been refuted.
2) typical for a biased feeble minded fuckwit you didn’t even try to refute how I demonstrated that criminalizing the evidence that refutes the holocaust is relevant.
I’ll repeat it, just for you.
The fact that all evidence that refutes the holocaust is criminal in every nation where it allegedly occurred is relevant if you are accepting any evidence at all from those nations.
Refusing to consider evidence is the definition of bias and YOUR conclusion that bias is irrelevant only demonstrates your bigotry and disregard for justice.
Your feeble point 2) was already refuted
3) typical for a biased feeble minded fuckwit you didn’t even try to refute how I demonstrated that zyklon b was a pesticide used to save lives throughout Europe. Its use absolutely no evidence of a holocaust, instead to save lives.
Your feeble point 3) was already refuted.
4) Typical for a biased feeble minded fuckwit you didn’t even try to refute how I demonstrated that the described method of using zyklon b doesn’t support the narrative and that death from the detailed fuckwitness testimony and picture would have been scientifically necessary NOT merely possible.
Here I’ll repeat it for you,
Such an inefficient method would have taken too long to kill the required number of Jews. The pellets couldn’t be spread evenly in rooms full of people. The cold drainless floors would have delayed the release of cyanide from the pellets that people would have swept away from themselves. Any dead would have released all their bodily fluids and their bodies covering the pellets. Vomit would have been added to the floor prior to entering such a room.
According to the testimony of the so called survivor, the timing entering the chambers immediately, the details shirtless survivor, piles of bodies with unvented cyanide gas pockets in every space, death from repeated exposure as per testimony would have been necessary, not just possible.
Your feeble point 4) was already refuted.
5) Your desperation to refute what I’ve said demonstrates that you believe that facts will prove a story is bullshit.
Your problem is that my facts are proving that your story is bullshit.
That’s what we’re doing here. I hope that’s not irrelevant. Hahaha
Your feeble point 5) has been refuted
6) the fact that you admit that you haven’t heard of what Jews herald as the single greatest event of the holocaust and therefore consider it irrelevant demonstrates the low bar you set for “irrelevance” and just how ignorant you are.
Your ignorant point 6) has been refuted.
7) The fact that the allies admitted to using media propaganda to spread the holocaust lie for years doesn’t prove that there was a holocaust, in fact the opposite.
I provided my reference dates and identification.
Your feeble point 7) was refuted.
8) you admit that the Bletchley park decrypts demonstrate that to believe the holocaust story about them you must believe that the Germans intentionally lost the war to cover up the holocaust and at the same time left lying fuckwitnesses alive to tell the story after the Germans.
This is what you believe. Hey folks you didn’t win the war, the Germans intentionally lost it to protect a secret that they left witnesses alive to tell it.
Sevo the retarded has performed his most famous feat of feeble minded gymnastics.
Hmmmm should be in a history book somewhere Dontcha think. No you don’t.
Your feeble point 8) was hahaha refuted.
9) You are claiming that the Red Cross didn’t visit German prison camps. That’s an absurd lie disproven by the numerous Red Cross records.
Did you just make that up general because it’s time for your medication.
You need to provide a cite. Hahaha, I won’t hold my breath.
Your feeble point 9) has been refuted.
10) in your feeble fuckmindedness you forgot that that information soundly refuted your points 3) and 4). It is neither irrelevant or “arm waving”
Your point 10) has been refuted
11) the contradiction between the Nuremberg conclusion and the official holocaust story demonstrates that one or both are lying and therefore not credible.
I’d call that relevant to refuting the holocaust.
Point 11) has been refuted
12) they are the numbers and you haven’t refuted them. Diesel exhaust is relatively safe and definitely doesn’t support the mass murder narrative of the holocaust. If diesel exhaust was used in gas chambers , the holocaust couldn’t have happened.
I’d call that relevant to refuting the holocaust.
Your point 12) has been refuted.
13) simply the summary of what was contained in points 11) and 12) and refuted with them.
Your point 13) has been refuted.
14) you haven’t refuted the fact that Jews did publicly falsely claim to have suffered from holocaust’s of 6 million no less than 166 time between the years 1900 and 1945.
You didn’t refute the probability of the 167th claim being true. Better to buy a lottery ticket. Or the fact that the bullshiit narrative has been like a lottery bonanza for Jews.
The fact that the truth is antisemitic is irrelevant to refuting the holocaust.
Your point 14) has been refuted
15) the fact that the documented letter from the head of the British propaganda office Victor Cavendish-Bentick admits in august of 1943 that they have NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA is evidence relevant to refuting the holocaust.
Your point 15) has been refuted
16) it demonstrates the inherent evil of a people whose religion advocates lying and that these claims which aren’t required curriculum in school demonstrate that the majority of people don’t yet know the truth.
This is entirely relevant to the holocaust purported by the usual suspects.
Your point 16) has been refuted.
According to Misek. Jews are liars. So he fantasizes about criminalizing lying so he can lock all the Jews up as a precursor to Holocaust 2.0. Of course, rants and raves that Holocaust 1.0 never happened, even though it’s a proven fact.
Hahaha
Then support criminalizing lying Kol Nidre boy.
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit.
Unless it’s “The Big Lie!!!!!”
Then it doesn’t matter what the teller believes.
Whether something is true or not never depends upon belief.
You’re telling a lie whenever you sell something as truth that you don’t know, has been disproven or hasn’t been proven with correctly applied logic and science.
Ignorance is no defence.
Paid and coerced testimony isn’t proof.
When scientific forensics are allowed to conduct thorough unbiased investigation in an environment where one possible conclusion isn’t a crime as it is at every alleged site of the holocaust today, we will have the opportunity to draw informed conclusions.
Until then we have paid and coerced testimony as the only side legally represented while the correctly applied logic and science that refutes that testimony is a crime.
That’s how the world has been coerced and brainwashed to believe a very big lie.
The value of the Comment section of this Website is that it lets evil psychos like you expose your evil and psychosis to the whole world, and the Comments let free, critical minds see you and call you for what you are.
And if you get hope from the repeal of Roe vs. Wade, that means you now hope to force men into being stud-farm animals and force women into being brood sows, or even the opposite and force them both to be sterile eunuchs, as dictated by the amorphous, irrational whim of "The Common Good Over The Individual Good," just as your Nazi brethren did and just as Deng Xiaoping did in Red China.
Well, whether you want us to breed or not, you can still breed with yourself and Fuck Off, Nazi!
That’s a funny way to say you miss murdering helpless innocent babies.
I do have to give you credit, you take pride in being the most awful and disgusting person here. At least you own the fact that the world would be much better off without you. Not many people can do that.
You really don’t like the truth do you?
You see a lying waste of skin bigot when you look in the mirror.
Remember this, nobody especially you, has ever refuted anything that I’ve said.
Truth? Waste of skin bigot? Do you see the massive projection irony you engage in?
You are so utterly pathetic it's hard to believe you're a real person.
Do you recognize that you can’t refute anything I say or not?
Can you show where you have?
That’s the truth that demonstrates that you’re a lying waste of skin bigot.
The position you claim has actually been the most refuted position in the history of man. You just like Nazis and hate Jews so you pretend otherwise.
If that were true you could refute something I said.
But you can’t, never have, because you’re a lying waste of skin bigot.
You have been refuted constantly. Jesus, you are the dumbest fuck to ever exist.
Criminalizing lying will be good for you but better for those you lie to.
Hahaha
Since the Holocaust is universally recognized as a proven fact, you would be the one going to prison. Not us.
The holocaust is a multi nation government conspiracy the exposing of which is a crime punishable with imprisonment in every nation where it allegedly occurred.
The lie serves Jews.
When lying is criminalized, correctly applied logic and science should be the only determinant of truth. That will necessarily overturn every law meant to conceal the facts and propagate the lie.
Opposing corrupt governments who lie and criminalize truth precluding rational debate is a noble reason for civil war.
The war for rational debate will also be remembered as the war of truth against lies.
You have demonstrated your choice to side with governments who lie and refuse to recognize and value logic and science. Against rational debate.
The lie serves Jews and other liars in shadow governments and secret societies.
The INSTANT you give anyone the power to criminally prosecute what they claim is a lie, you grant that party UNLIMITED power to be the biggest liar in the history of the planet.
We CANNOT and SHOULD NOT allow anyone to have that power.
You have to remember that he’s a Nazi who wants to eradicate the Jews. As such, he needs that power you are trying to warn him of.
It’s not a flaw in his reasoning, it’s intentional.
Are you still peddling that lie Kol Nidre boy?
But it's not a lie.
Prove your claim or you’re lying Kol Nidre boy.
You prove it every time you talk about how you hate Jews and love Nazis.
Again, if you don't want to be called a Nazi Jew hater, stop being one.
I’m pleased with these optics.
I know, you like being a scumbag Nazi. Like I said, it's impressive that you embrace being the most awful person here.
What makes yo believe that to be true?
For that to be true, correctly applied logic and science couldn’t exist. Is that what you believe, that scientists and philosophers have unlimited power and are not bound by the rules of their profession?
Maybe logic and science are so far above your intellectual capability that they seem like magic or gods power.
But are you really too stupid to know if you can prove what you claim is true or not?
If you can’t, don’t claim it is, and you won’t be lying.
Do you think that if GWB had said in 2003, “ I can’t prove it but I think Saddam has WMD”, that he would have received enough support to “shock and awe” earths cradle of civilization to rubble costing hundreds of thousands of lives in the process?
Because that’s what we get when liars aren’t punished.
There won’t be much left, I assume?
Left unsaid was that on-air, Carlson withheld his own disdain for Donald Trump, privately describing him as "destructive" and a "demonic force," while publicly catering to supporters of the former president.
"How DARE he not join The Goodthink Howl!?"
Spoiler alert, there are lots of people who don't think Trump is the best thing since sliced bread... he's just light-years better than what we had and what we've got now.
Intelligent and rational people can separate what effects them, policy, from the behavior, due to not needing a daddy figure.
The left can not. Some want to hide bad policy behind good intentions and soft statements. Many examples of those here in the comments and even the writers.
It's just... Ugh. Even if Tucker held negative views of Trump, he's allowed to not air them. This whole concept that he's "lying" by not just word-vomiting out his every thought and feeling at all times on all subjects is just fucking gross. We need *less* of that sort of constant emoting behavior, not more.
All forms of totalitarianism are based on dysfunctional psychological relationships between the government and the governed. In a free society based on the principles of Classical (real) Liberalism (now almost perfectly aligned with “right wing” politics), government exists as a referee to remedy abusive behavior. In every other form of government, government is the primary source of abusive / dysfunctional behavior.
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The issue is, Tucker would privately express very negative opinions about Trump, but publicly would give complete softball interviews to him. He was very disingenuous.
So exactly how every establishment journalist felt about Biden? "He's a dementia-addled old crook, and the laptop was real, but we can't question the cathedral"?
You're such a fucking hypocrite, Jeff.
What would Groomer Jeffy be without hypocrisy?
Carlson is a liar and a hypocrite, but he meant well.
You are a liar and a hypocrite, and don’t mean well
So many ideas!
I don't really care. And I'm not a big fan of Carlson. But he's one of the few mainstream media voices willing to talk about certain topics so I think his presence is overall a good thing.
No doubt. I have embraced more and more the idea of people who espouse non-groupthink opinions and ideas. I don’t really like Tucker that much either, but I like the fact that someone like Tucker is out there sparking discussions many feel verboten.
How did he lie, sarcasmic?
YOU lied when you claimed Tucker was the reason for the Dominion suite, but how did Tucker lie?
he’s just light-years better than what we had and what we’ve got now.
... if you generously give Trump the benefit of the doubt on every issue. Yes that's right.
Or, are just capable of rational thought, which certainly doesn't describe you.
Nice. chemjeff talks about Trump, so you talk about chemjeff.
Chemleft was lying, Vinni suggested why, white knight.
“if you generously give Trump the benefit of the doubt on every issue. Yes that’s right.” (emphasis mine)
No, chemjeff was talking about Vinni. You’re really bad at this.
You maybe should have looked twice at the order of the comments before accusing me of being bad at this.
You’re good at being a leftist shill.
Be specific. How is Biden better.
He might die sooner?
Fair.
Which wouldn't really matter.
Biden is a prop, avatar of collectivism, a vessel for rule by the professional managerial class and their activist drones.
He's an idol for the philosophy diametrically opposed to individualism. Trump was the ultimate individual as president, an iconoclast and outsider. Love him or hate him, you can't deny that Trump was trying to execute HIS vision and was always himself.
There is nothing more abhorrent to a decrepit collectivist than an unabashed individual.
Correct.
Can you imagine how an egotistical old gasbag like Biden felt when he watched Trump walk in with no political experience and get elected president in his first try? At a time where Biden had been in national politics for over 40 years and couldn’t even be a real contender for his own party’s nomination.
I’m sure Biden, a political thug with a heart full of envy, unfulfilled ambition, and hatred, was seething over that.
Not generous at all. Apart from the pandemic, which resulted in Democrats funding a bio weapon for over 20 years, many years illegally, in a lab hosted by our biggest enemies and known for substandard security, Trumps RESULTS were outstanding for the vast majority of Americans. Since 5,000 years of recorded history show few if any credible examples of “political coincidences,” it is almost a certainty that Democrats intentionally released the bio weapon, too, just to win an election. Whether or not they did, they are still responsible for mass murder and the wrecking of the global economy through gross incompetence and malicious practices.
Democrats funding a bio weapon
Well, that's not a hyperbolic recounting of what actually happened at all.
Perhaps, perhaps not. How would we know either way? We do know they have lied to us about it to the point that a possible truth (lab leak) was called disinformation. Why would they be so vehemently against a possible truth? What are they hiding?
To be fair, that shit was funded by Neocons of both parties.
This fact here really is more the issue.
Yeah, I think Trump is an annoying weirdo and mostly a failure as president. But still vastly preferable. And more entertaining.
Bingo.
It’s not like someone with principles would scoff at the entire weight of the federal intelligence and bureaucracy (not to mention a particular states time and effort) being used to stop one person while simultaneously sending a message to anyone who would dare buck against them.
Nope, there are only sane people and icky Trump cultist.
IMO being Trump is so incompetent he might be the better choice. Biden knows how to work to get things passed. Trump, not so much. The less they can do to us the better.
The controversial host launches his effort at a promising moment for dissident voices.
Oh, that's nice. But, what are they dissenting from, and what are they advocating in favor of (if anything)? Isn't that important to know as well? Or are we just going to celebrate dissent for its own sake?
As a commenter yesterday put it, people like Tucker Carlson, and Glenn Greenwald, and Matt Taibbi, and now even RFK Jr. (lol) get a lot of play around here because they are "anti-establishment malcontents". And while it's fine to have healthy skepticism for the establishment, and generally for the established way of doing things, simply being anti-establishment *for its own sake* is not a rational or logical take; it is just an emotional reaction in opposition to the status quo.
So if Tucker or Glenn or Matt want to offer a different perspective, then kudos to them; but that alone doesn't merit being placed on a pedestal and lionized. Their own words and statements deserve scrutiny. They shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt any more than Tom Costello from NBC News should be.
Not a pro government leftist.
Their own words and statements deserve scrutiny.
You judge the person's words and statements by the person's politics, not by the merit of what is said.
Are you admitting to something?
I thought it was what they don’t say is important.
Yes, that’s exactly what he does.
"But, what are they dissenting from, and what are they advocating in favor of (if anything)?"
Lawlessness treason and corruption of government is the problem they are dissenting from.
Impose the Constitution upon the corrupt and illegitimate government, is what they are advocating.
Something tells me you are projecting onto them what you think they stand for, rather than looking at what they actually stand for.
For example, here is RFK Jr.:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/flashback-robert-f-kennedy-jr-once-called-for-koch-industries-and-exxonmobil-to-be-put-to-corporate-death
That doesn't sound like "imposing the constitution" to me.
How does that statement make everything RFK Jr has ever said wrong? Did he talk about bears in trunks or something? Noting he has 20% support and the DNC decided to cut debates isnt supporting RFK Jr. You seen quite nervous about him. Why? Threat to your hero Joe?
"Or are we just going to celebrate dissent for its own sake?"
Yes Chemjeff. We are going to celebrate that all voices- especially those who are being silenced by powerful interests- have the opportunity to be heard. That is what freedom of expression is- the belief that it is a good thing that all ideas should be free-flowing, even if that means some bad ideas get out there.
"simply being anti-establishment *for its own sake* is not a rational or logical take; it is just an emotional reaction in opposition to the status quo."
You have no proof that anyone is being anti-establishment just "for its own sake".
"They shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt any more than Tom Costello from NBC News should be."
And of course, no one is insisting they should, so you seem to be stealing a base here.
Let's cut to the chase: You don't have to endorse Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, or Barri Weiss. Is it a good or bad thing that they have the ABILITY to express opinions and facts that weren't allowed in their editorial room? If your argument is that "it depends on whether what they say is good/true/acceptable/etc" then you are not a supporter of free expression.
Yes Chemjeff. We are going to celebrate that all voices- especially those who are being silenced by powerful interests- have the opportunity to be heard. That is what freedom of expression is- the belief that it is a good thing that all ideas should be free-flowing, even if that means some bad ideas get out there.
There is a difference between celebrating the right to dissent, and celebrating the content of the dissent itself. Absolutely free speech is great, but there is a lot of free speech that is stupid speech. I'm not going to celebrate the content of stupid speech just because the speech should rightfully remain legal to say.
You have no proof that anyone is being anti-establishment just “for its own sake”.
You are right, I have no specific proof. It is a hypothesis that I have developed to try to explain, for example, why some purported libertarians seem to be perplexingly friendly towards RFK Jr.'s candidacy. The guy is a total left-wing nutball, and yet we have libertarians in this forum saying things like "now hold on, let's listen to what he has to say..." I mean, really? Also Glenn Greenwald to a lesser extent. Greenwald actually gave a keynote address at a socialist convention, and yet he receives a tongue-bath around here.
Look how, say, Glenn Greenwald and Jo Jorgensen are treated:
Glenn Greenwald: has generally progressive views, but his big claim to fame was leaking secrets from the government. He's fighting the man! Yeah baby!
Jo Jorgensen: has doctrinaire libertarian positions, but didn't do anything to actually fight against the establishment. All it took was one tweet in support of BLM for most everyone around here to declare her as a worthless candidate and that they were voting for Trump.
And it's this and a myriad of other small instances which lead me to conclude that what most people around here tend to value is not ideology or policy or ideas, but "fighting against the man", i.e., being anti-establishment.
Is it a good or bad thing that they have the ABILITY to express opinions and facts that weren’t allowed in their editorial room?
That they have the ABILITY to express their opinions? Of course. Whether their contributions to the overall discourse is a net positive remains to be seen.
“Greenwald actually gave a keynote address at a socialist convention”
And? This doesn’t change the things that libertarians like about him. Or the fact that many of those same Leftists have now turned against him for “selling out to the Right.”
“Glenn Greenwald: has generally progressive views, but his big claim to fame was leaking secrets from the government. He’s fighting the man! Yeah baby!”
Libertarians like Greenwald because he reported on the information given to him by Whistle-blower Edward Snowden about the NSA’s Spying program. He isn’t a “leaker” he is a journalist reporting on an important story, and doing what we wish other journalists would do, holding the government’s feet to the fire. Libertarians commend him for that, which they should.
He’s also been a consistent critic of Warrantless Wiretapping, Crony Capitalism, the Military Industrial Complex, and has been a decent defender of Free Speech. Your downplaying and waiving away his contributions, and numerous reasons why libertarians respect him doesn’t help your argument.
The same goes for the others, trying to downplay the reasons why libertarians may like them in the name of…..What? Purity? I don’t even know. No one here has called Greenwald, Carlson, RFK JR., Taibbi, or Weiss libertarians, nor are they being given a “tongue-bath” (eye-roll). They’re being praised for their positions that are aligned with libertarians. Your complaints make no sense.
"He’s also been a consistent critic of Warrantless Wiretapping, Crony Capitalism, the Military Industrial Complex, and has been a decent defender of Free Speech. Your downplaying and waiving away his contributions, and numerous reasons why libertarians respect him doesn’t help your argument."
But because he is a socialist, Chemjeff- the radical individualist- doesn't understand why we would dare let him into our tribe. SMDH.
“Greenwald actually gave a keynote address at a socialist convention”
Strawman, *and* ad hominem. It's a two-fer!
Your complaints make no sense.
If they don't at least make partial sense, you aren't listening.
For example, chemjeff's comment about Jo Jorgensen. What did she do to deserve all the scorn heaped on her by supposed libertarians other than participating in a BLM-organized candlelight vigil and making a generic statement that she agrees that black lives matter?
Oh, I forgot about the vigil. Yes, she participated in the BLM vigil and sent THAT ONE TWEET, but otherwise had down-the-line doctrinaire libertarian positions. Meanwhile, Greenwald literally gives keynote speeches at socialist conventions and advocates for progressive policies for DECADES, and guess which one gets the more favorable treatment around here.
You two clowns are deliberately playing with false equivalence.
If Greenwald was running for the presidency as a Libertarian Party candidate instead of being a journalist you might have had a point. But he wasn't and you don't.
You're so utterly disingenuous, Jeff. You honestly make me sick.
You two clowns are deliberately playing with false equivalency. If Greenwald was running for the presidency as a Libertarian Party candidate, instead of being a journalist you might have had a point. But he wasn’t and you don’t.
Yeah, I really don't get the comparison either.
Jeffy will never give up the con. How he remains unmurdered is a mystery to me.
Can’t forget the vigil. It was a major sin against … well, the sin of not showing enough disdain for Black Lives Matter.
So you support a Marxist organization (by their own admission) that deceptively took money from fools thinking they were helping black people, but in reality funneled the funds to Act Blue? A money laundering captive organization for the democrat party. The same organization that cause a substantial part of the billions of dollars of property damage during the democrat’Summer of Love’ in 2020, and also murdered dozens of people across the country.
Of course you do. They’re your fellow travelers
Because restating the idiocy of a leftist organization that has done more damage to the criminal justice reform movement by “racializing” it isn’t a good look for the Presidential Nominee of the Libertarian Party? To reiterate, praising or commending non-libertarians for embracing and advocating for values and positions we agree with isn’t a “tongue bath.” And criticizing the Libertarian Party for its constant failures (including the Johnson/Weld debacle) isn’t unfair. It’s you and Chemjeff that aren’t listening.
If the basis for your criticism is that JoJo was not pure enough ideologically because of her (very tepid) support for BLM, then why are you so critical of the person who was 95+% pure on the libertarian spectrum, and far more deferential to a guy like Greenwald, who is very good on a few things (civil liberties and the security state), but VERY BAD from a libertarian perspective on everything else (the rest of leftwing politics)?
I'm stating that your complaints about libertarian praise for Glenn Greenwald are silly. We are not commending him for his "socialist dissent" from the Democratic Party. We're commending him for his consistent criticism of the security state and his journalism over the years that align with us. That's not deference to Greenwald.
As for Jorgensen. She gave support to BLM and got criticized for it. Yes as the libertarian nominee, she's expected to be better than socialists and non-libertarians. And if Greenwald was trying to be the Libertarian Nominee I expect him to be a libertarian. But he's not and no one is pretending that he is.
Groomer Jeffy is just being selectively reductionist. He does this frequently. It’s part of his odious brand of disingenuousness.
"There is a difference between celebrating the right to dissent, and celebrating the content of the dissent itself. "
A point you continue to show no proof of. And yet you object when people accuse you of arguing in bad faith.
"You are right, I have no specific proof. It is a hypothesis that I have developed"
Well there is your problem. You are having a problem with fallacious reasoning, and it is leading to confusion. Specifically, you are engaging in ad hominem. You note that RFK and Glenn Greenwald are nutty liberals. So you don't understand why ostensible libertarians might listen to other arguments they are making.
If Greenwald is a socialist, it doesn't suddenly make it untrue when he reports that Democrats are uniquely showing authoritarian tendencies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5GiuWJqYJg)
That you think libertarians ought to discount this evidence solely because he has a different ideology than them is a problem with your reasoning, not theirs.
"Jo Jorgensen: has doctrinaire libertarian positions, but didn’t do anything to actually fight against the establishment. All it took was one tweet in support of BLM for most everyone around here to declare her as a worthless candidate and that they were voting for Trump."
Yeah, well you have offered up bullshit comparison, here. No one is suggesting that Greenwald be the face of the libertarian party. They are noting that he, a red-diaper-baby socialist, is presenting evidence of malfeasance on his own side. They are judging his actions, not is status as a dissenter.
Let us just suffice it to say that this is an uncharitable caricature of most views on this site. The objection to Jorgenson goes much further than one tweet. Despite CLAIMING to have doctranaire beliefs, the actions of Jorgenson have been a problem.
It is telling that you are criticizing people for not engaging in "Muh Tribe!"
"And it’s this and a myriad of other small instances which lead me to conclude"
riiiiiight...you have just been dispassionately watching the events over the past 5 years and came to this conclusion. I am sure there is no filter bias at play here.
An alternate hypothesis is that people are concluding things based on the actual actions taken. They see multiple people who have every reason to push the narrative suddenly dissenting. Barri Weiss is as establishment a centrist-liberal you are going to get. Taibbi and Greenwald both tack far left. And yet they have all said that there is an establishment message being pushed- in concert with the federal government.
Now it could be that people are latching onto those facts because they fit a preconceived world-view, but they are absolutely NOT lionizing these people solely for their dissent. And they are not saying that their role as dissenters is the sole reason to believe them. People like Taibbi, Weiss and Greenwald have provided specific evidence and documents supporting their position. People are saying that you cannot discount this evidence as partisan hackery- because they are calling from inside the house. And they are indeed cheering the fact that Greenwald and the like have platforms available to them today that they previously would not have had to spread this message.
Beautifully put.
A point you continue to show no proof of. And yet you object when people accuse you of arguing in bad faith.
Oh give me a break. Show me one time when I have ever advocated that independent journalists should be silenced by the state just because they are independent. You cannot. You are impugning false positions onto me. That is a bad faith tactic on your part.
Yeah, well you have offered up bullshit comparison, here. No one is suggesting that Greenwald be the face of the libertarian party. They are noting that he, a red-diaper-baby socialist, is presenting evidence of malfeasance on his own side. They are judging his actions, not is status as a dissenter.
But his actions of "presenting evidence of malfeasance on his own side" DEMONSTRATES his status as a dissenter. They are inseparable.
Let us just suffice it to say that this is an uncharitable caricature of most views on this site. The objection to Jorgenson goes much further than one tweet. Despite CLAIMING to have doctranaire beliefs, the actions of Jorgenson have been a problem.
Is it? It was THAT ONE TWEET that was routinely cited, over and over and over again, as THE REASON why they supposedly just could not vote for JoJo. What were all of these other actions by JoJo that were supposedly disqualifying that totally overwhelmed THAT ONE TWEET?
And look, there are lots of socialists/progressives out there, and there are lots (well, not as many) of libertarians out there. But only some of each category are given significant positive attention in this forum, and some of each category are given significant scorn as well. Why is that?
Look at, say, Greenwald vs. KMW. Who gets more praise around here, and who gets more scorn? Hint: the purple-haired anarchist is not the one who gets more praise. EVEN THOUGH that purple-haired anarchist is the one who actually runs a real magazine that is promoting libertarian ideas to a mass audience. And say what you will about Reason's reporting, it is doing more to advance libertarianism than anything than the magazine that any of the commenters here are writing. And why? Because Reason is viewed to be part of the establishment, reporting on establishment topics from an establishment perspective (from a *slightly* libertarian angle). Greenwald is viewed as being completely outside of the establishment, fighting against it. That's my explanation.
Look at Greenwald vs. the ACLU. They are both lefty, and they both promote civil liberties. And yet around here Greenwald gets praise but the ACLU gets scorn. Again it's NOT because of ideological purity - yes the ACLU is not consistent on civil liberties, but neither is Greenwald (he's a socialist after all). It's because the ACLU is viewed as being too close to the Democratic Party establishment, while Greenwald is totally outside of the establishment throwing bombs from the outside in. That's why.
And here is where you are talking out of both sides of your mouth:
An alternate hypothesis is that people are concluding things based on the actual actions taken. They see multiple people who have every reason to push the narrative suddenly dissenting.
Now it could be that people are latching onto those facts because they fit a preconceived world-view, but they are absolutely NOT lionizing these people solely for their dissent.
So the alternative hypothesis is that people are concluding things based on actions taken, such as the actions of Bari Weiss et al. that they take to dissent when they have strong reasons not to. And yet you claim that they are not being praised solely for their dissent? Which is it?
And why? Because Reason is viewed to be part of the establishment, reporting on establishment topics from an establishment perspective (from a *slightly* libertarian angle).
Thus spake the secular religion of prestige.
"Oh give me a break."
No, I don't think I will.
"Show me one time when I have ever advocated that independent journalists should be silenced by the state just because they are independent. You cannot. You are impugning false positions onto me."
Lol. No I didn't. I said that you are arguing that people celebrate dissent "for its own sake" despite lacking proof. You literally admitted you have no proof, and then went on to continue arguing the point. Sorry, but when someone asks you for proof and you demure while continuing to argue the point, that strikes me as arguing from bad faith.
"But his actions of “presenting evidence of malfeasance on his own side” DEMONSTRATES his status as a dissenter. They are inseparable."
That doesn't mean people are celebrating dissent for its own sake. If people were celebrating dissent for its own sake, you would expect them to be celebrating a whistle blower who reported that the government is run by lizard people, or some guy who said Trump was trying to get quid pro quo from the Ukrainian president. But they aren't doing that. They are not celebrating dissent for its own sake. They are celebrating specific facts from Glenn Greenwald. AND they are celebrating the fact that platforms exist where Glenn (and crazy lizard guy) can dissent.
"It was THAT ONE TWEET that was routinely cited, over and over and over again, as THE REASON"
No it wasn't. That ONE TWEET was a very succinct summary of the many, many ways that Jorgensen failed, however.
"But only some of each category are given significant positive attention in this forum, and some of each category are given significant scorn as well. Why is that?"
Well, I would hazard to say that it is because certain people are saying things that people in this forum agree with. Surprise- people tend to amplify the message they agree with. But you do see how this is different than supporting any dissent "for its own sake", right?
For example, Jorgensen's tweet could easily be seen as a type of dissent. Why aren't we celebrating that for its own sake? It's almost as if- and stay with me here- people are celebrating specific statements because they agree with those statements regardless of whether or not the statements are actually "dissent".
"And why? Because Reason is viewed to be part of the establishment, reporting on establishment topics from an establishment perspective (from a *slightly* libertarian angle). Greenwald is viewed as being completely outside of the establishment, fighting against it. That’s my explanation."
And it is an easily disproven explanation.
There are numerous "anti-establisment" viewpoints out there that people in these comments don't accept or celebrate. We regularly kick around Misek and his Nazi bullshit, even thought that is hardly "establishment". We regularly kick around mtrueman and his commie bullshit. "The Squad" was continuously disruptive of the "Establishment Democrats" and they are constantly ridiculed.
There are endless tomes of "anti-establishment" bullshit that people on this board do not celebrate. Hell, I disagree even with many people on this board on tariffs and immigration- I don't "celebrate" them merely because they dissent, and they don't celebrate me merely because I dissent from them.
"It’s because the ACLU is viewed as being too close to the Democratic Party establishment, while Greenwald is totally outside of the establishment throwing bombs from the outside in. That’s why."
Or it is because when arguments are being made, the ACLU is constantly on the wrong side of it, these days? Greenwald isn't out there screaming that we need to institute his nutty socialist ideas. And when he does, I doubt people here will celebrate that. The ACLU, on the other hand, *is* out there saying stupid shit like "mandating masks and vaccination is pro freedom".
"So the alternative hypothesis is that people are concluding things based on actions taken, such as the actions of Bari Weiss et al. that they take to dissent when they have strong reasons not to. And yet you claim that they are not being praised solely for their dissent? Which is it?"
Re-read what I said, and maybe it will be clear.
1) If a person is dissenting from their tribe, they should be believed. Greenwald is a dissenter, therefore he should be believed. <---Not an argument I am making
2) People who have partisan beliefs you disagree with should not be believed. Greenwald is a partisan socialist, so you commenters should not believe him. <---Argument you are making
3) Members of Tribe A have partisan motive to crucify tribe B. Greenwald is not a conservative, so he does not have conservative motives to crucify the liberal establishment media. <--- Argument I am making.
Note I am not saying that Greenwald should be believed merely *because* he is "inside the house". I am just saying a common complaint of partisanship doesn't apply.
The ACLU, on the other hand, *is* out there saying stupid shit like “mandating masks and vaccination is pro freedom”.
Also shit like "the Supreme Court keeps getting it wrong on the Second Amendment".
Hey, look! Dissent we don't celebrate!
Lol. No I didn’t. I said that you are arguing that people celebrate dissent “for its own sake” despite lacking proof. You literally admitted you have no proof, and then went on to continue arguing the point. Sorry, but when someone asks you for proof and you demure while continuing to argue the point, that strikes me as arguing from bad faith.
If the only thing you will accept is a literal quote from a person stating verbatim YES I CELEBRATE DISSENT FOR ITS OWN SAKE then no, that likely does not exist. I am constructing a good faith *argument* for why I believe this *hypothesis* is largely correct. You're pulling what you would claim to be a "Mike Laursen" here: demanding very literal things without looking at the bigger argument as a whole.
And again I will restate why: because the voices around here that get the most praise, are the outsiders. They are the Tucker Carlsons and the Glenn Greenwalds and the Matt Taibbis, even though they have very different ideological positions. They are the ones who have deliberately branded themselves as anti-establishment "truth tellers". And I don't think that is a coincidence.
And again I don't think people approvingly cite Glenn Greenwald ONLY because he is an outsider. I think instead people cite him because he says things that they agree with, and they are less skeptical or less willing to be critical of his claims because of his outsider status. A great deal of trust in him is generated by his anti-establishment status. They don't cite other people saying the same thing, because they aren't as "outsidersy" as Greenwald is and therefore not as trustworthy in their view. That's probably a better way to state my hypothesis on the matter.
That doesn’t mean people are celebrating dissent for its own sake. If people were celebrating dissent for its own sake, you would expect them to be celebrating a whistle blower who reported that the government is run by lizard people, or some guy who said Trump was trying to get quid pro quo from the Ukrainian president. But they aren’t doing that. They are not celebrating dissent for its own sake. They are celebrating specific facts from Glenn Greenwald. AND they are celebrating the fact that platforms exist where Glenn (and crazy lizard guy) can dissent.
First, the actual claim is that people around here tend to be *anti-establishment* for its own sake. Trump was never considered to be part of the establishment so support for Trump is construed as opposition to the establishment.
Second, crazy conspiracy theories DO get significant traction around here. See the support for kooks like Alex Jones. Why is that? Again I think it is based fundamentally in the idea that these conspiracy theories, to them, represent "forbidden truths that the establishment don't want you to know".
No it wasn’t. That ONE TWEET was a very succinct summary of the many, many ways that Jorgensen failed, however.
What are these other "many, many ways" that she failed *ideologically*? Sure she ran a dumpster fire of a campaign but that is not an ideological failure. And in 2020, over and over and over again, the two things that were cited about "why I can't vote for JoJo" were (1) THAT ONE TWEET and (2) the BLM vigil. What other things were there?
"You’re pulling what you would claim to be a “Mike Laursen” here: demanding very literal things without looking at the bigger argument as a whole."
No. The "argument as a whole"- the argument you made- is that people are celebrating dissent "for its own sake." I asked if you had proof, and you said no. So I am not picking a small nit in the greater argument. It is the argument, and you have no proof.
"I am constructing a good faith *argument* for why I believe this *hypothesis* is largely correct."
Holy shit this is rich. I have news for you, Chemjeff: Hypothesizing about the motivations of your opponents is not "arguing in good faith". It is *the definition* of arguing in bad faith. It is attacking your debate opponent for their reasons, rather than attacking the argument itself.
Arguing in good faith:
"Greenwald is wrong about X because this logic does not follow."
Arguing in bad faith:
"You only want to talk about Greenwald because of these bad intentions I've imputed on you."
"Taibbi shouldn't be believed because he is biased and probably I could find something wrong with some of his arguments."
This ENTIRE STATEMENT is nothing but an ad hominem:
"And again I don’t think people approvingly cite Glenn Greenwald ONLY because he is an outsider. I think instead people cite him because he says things that they agree with, and they are less skeptical or less willing to be critical of his claims because of his outsider status. A great deal of trust in him is generated by his anti-establishment status. They don’t cite other people saying the same thing, because they aren’t as “outsidersy” as Greenwald is and therefore not as trustworthy in their view."
You have done nothing to explain why Greenwald *shouldn't* be believed. You have done nothing to explain why he is wrong. You have done nothing to explain why the points Greenwald makes are irrelevant. All you have done is spent hours trying to say people have the wrong reasons for bringing him up. You have spent hours trying to tell people what they are thinking- all the while disbelieving when they tell you that isn't what they are thinking.
And, by the way, it is something you do constantly. Every now and then I get a decent argument from you. But too often, you are complaining about the motivations of people you don't agree with. "These conservatives are don't actually CARE about X, they are just trying to punish Y." "You are just emotional about Y because you are personally invested!" "You are only agreeing with FOO, because they are on the same tribe."
How do we get to the bottom of this? We don't. Because you DON'T HAVE PROOF, as you admitted. You have a series of circumstantial facts that you have interpreted (coincidentally, I'm sure) to mean the worst about people you hate. And when those people you hate offer alternative explanations that also fit your hypothesis, you cannot do anything but double down again and insist that your hypothesis is better...because...um....well because you really want it to be the correct hypothesis.
And don't be too cute here. The "establishment" here is the center-left welfare state, security state, administrative state consensus that we've endured for the past 50 years or so. In other words, standard managerial liberalism. So in this light the BLM movement is really viewed as doubling down on more of what the establishment wants. Things like affirmative action and racial preferences are already baked into the establishment cake. BLM demanding more of that isn't "dissent", it's doing more of the same just harder.
And you are twisting my original claim. My original claim is that there are a lot of people here who are *anti-establishment* for its own sake. I asked the question of, "Or are we going to celebrate dissent for its own sake?" but that was not the central thesis of my argument. You've convinced me - no, we don't celebrate dissent for its own sake. But I absolutely do believe there are a lot of people who view being anti-establishment as a worthy state in and of itself.
And all you have done is demonstrate that establishment vs. anti-establishment is not the ONLY variable that dictates whether someone gets praise or not. But it is the case that it is a significant variable, all else equal. If we took a poll here of who is more libertarian, Greenwald or KMW, what do you think the result would be? You and I both know the answer would be Greenwald even though he's a socialist. And there's a reason for that.
2) People who have partisan beliefs you disagree with should not be believed. Greenwald is a partisan socialist, so you commenters should not believe him.
That is not the argument that I am making. What I am observing, is that people like Greenwald get a disproportionate amount of love here despite his socialist tendencies. And I have told you why I think that is.
" The “establishment” here is the center-left welfare state...."
And here is more of your bullshit bad faith argument. You gave me a hypothesis. I presented evidence to you that falsified that hypothesis. Rather than saying, "Oh I guess I was wrong" you are now changing your definitions precisely to exclude the falsifying evidence I presented.
"So in this light the BLM movement is really viewed as doubling down on more of what the establishment wants."
Case in point: BLM is protesting against the fucking police- the enforcement arm of the establishment. They are fucking marxists. They were calling for the defunding of a major component of the "managerial liberal" establishment.
The fact that you type that with a straight face- telling me that an organization expressly formed to PROTEST THE ESTABLISHMENT is actually part of the establishment is proof enough that there is no further discussion to be had. As near as I can tell, if you need the sky to be green to save your "Hypothesis" you'll be explaining that to me next.
“Look at Greenwald vs. the ACLU. They are both lefty, and they both promote civil liberties. And yet around here Greenwald gets praise but the ACLU gets scorn. Again it’s NOT because of ideological purity – yes the ACLU is not consistent on civil liberties, but neither is Greenwald (he’s a socialist after all). It’s because the ACLU is viewed as being too close to the Democratic Party establishment, while Greenwald is totally outside of the establishment throwing bombs from the outside in.”
Once again, we’re commending Greenwald for the type of criticisms he's made against the Democratic Party. Not just the fact that he’s criticizing it. I don’t believe anyone on here has praised any criticism he’s made of the Democratic Party for not pushing hard enough for Medicare for all.
And we criticize the ACLU because it’s only gotten worse over the years. Hell, even the New York Times has pointed this out: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html
Even former ACLU members have made this point: “Ira Glasser, who served as executive director of the ACLU from 1978 to 2001, said the organization that has defended free speech by unsavory groups like Neo-Nazis has turned into a ‘partisan progressive’ group.” https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10458777/Former-ACLU-head-Ira-Glasser-blasts-organization-failing-defend-free-speech.html
When a “civil liberties” organization begins to question whether or not they should still be supporting civil liberties when they conflict with “progressive” sensibilities that’s a problem. Complaining that libertarians are somehow not being fair to the ACLU is silly and ignores current events.
Once again, we’re commending Greenwald for the type of criticisms he’s made against the Democratic Party.
My point is, there are LOTS of people who criticize the Democratic Party. JoJo criticized the Democratic Party. Reason criticizes the Democratic Party. And quite a few of those other critics are far more consistently libertarian than Glenn Greenwald. Yet all we ever seem to hear around here is how dreamy Glenn Greenwald is and how terrible JoJo and Reason are. Why is that?
Your original point seems to have been we're praising Greenwald and the rest just for being "anti-establishment."
"Yet all we ever seem to hear around here is how dreamy Glenn Greenwald is and how terrible JoJo and Reason are. Why is that?"
Do you mean when Reason writers bring it up in an article? Not sure I buy the commenters here are the sycophants for Greenwald that you're making them out to be. And a quick Control F shows that you're the first person to bring up Jorgensen in this thread.
"Again it’s NOT because of ideological purity – yes the ACLU is not consistent on civil liberties, but neither is Greenwald (he’s a socialist after all). "
Except Greenwald is significantly more consistent than the ACLU on civil liberties. If it comes to siding with civil liberties or siding with the left, Greenwald will go with civil liberties, say 70% of the time where the ACLU will civil liberties, say 20% of the time. And pretending that makes no difference is just dishonest.
""You note that RFK and Glenn Greenwald are nutty liberals.""
Didn't the liberals disown Greenwald?
And so did the Register, the publication Greenwald founded forever ago.
Which is why Jeff hates him.
I don't hate him. I'm just not going to fall for his schtick. Having a BRAND of being a truth-teller is not the same as actually being a truth-teller.
And notice that Chemjeff (total good faith arguer) has offered no reason why he or anyone else should disbelieve Greenwald. All Chemjeff can do is suggest that Greenwald is disingenuous ("fall for his schtick"). Chemjeff offers no evidence of this- just as he can offer no evidence of people praising dissent "for its own sake". Chemjeff is telling us that we (and Greenwald) have bad intent, and that is all that a person of good faith argument like him needs to say.
Easier to battle against straw man false narratives and over generalizations than actually learning about the subject.
It’s a total coincidence that Jeff started to distrust Greenwald’s intent when people in the media turned against him.
And of course, it’s everyone else that is disingenuous.
Just a complete coincidence. Not groupthinky at all.
Many (most?) people today who profess to be Libertarians aren’t, and have no clue what Libertarianism even is. This all stems back to the successful Marxist propaganda coup around 1900. Persecuted and hounded (and rightfully so), Marxists we’re desperate for camouflage. So, they cooked up a plan. They convinced a couple of no-name academics to cook up a brand new “philosophy” (actually just a regurgitation of Marx) and called it “social liberalism.” Claiming it was “the next step in Liberalism!,” it was in fact the absolute antithesis of Liberalism (Orwell was impressed at the doublespeak). Instead of individual rights (Liberty), it was based on the fictional notion of “group rights” (Statism). Instead of government procuring it’s powers from the People, people derived their rights (if any) from a beneficent government (which has never existed anywhere). Instead of a government role limited to referee, government is the primary player. Etc.
They had all their Allie’s in media, academia, and government sing the same song (just like that brilliant montage a few years back of everyone in the media parroting the exact same phrases), and students in college were all taught that “this is what Liberalism is.” Every Marxist tacitly understood they were now “Liberals,” and so they professed - erasing as best they could what Liberalism actually was.
Sadly, propaganda works.
Jo Jorgensen: has doctrinaire libertarian positions, but didn’t do anything to actually fight against the establishment. All it took was one tweet in support of BLM for most everyone around here to declare her as a worthless candidate and that they were voting for Trump.
That isn't the score you seem to think it is. If one lived in Stalinist Russia (I'm not comparing the status quo U.S. to Stalinist Russia; I'm drawing an extreme example to illustrate a point, even to cretins like you) and didn't run afoul of the establishment, I think it might be fair to question your commitment to liberty. If you're only willing to take your principles up to the point that it risks unpopularity with the existing establishment, it's pretty clear that those principles are less important to you than popularity with the establishment. If your major controversial statement is something popular with the establishment (as "actively anti-racist" was in the summer of 2020) but properly understood at odds with the principles you're ostensibly advocating, I think it's pretty fair to question your commitment to those principles.
"But, but, Greenwald doesn't even profess a commitment to those principles!".
True, so far as it goes. On a lot of issues, Greenwald's principles are at odds with my own, as a libertarian. On at least a few, though, his principles aren't. And he's actually taken a stand that shows fortitude in commitment to those principles. He could have easily gone with the establishment and basked in the warm glow of their approval. But, he didn't. He took a stand on those principles and lived with the consequences.
In my book that puts him ahead of a lot of my ostensible allies. And deserving of respect and support for those stands. That doesn't mean I have to have respect or support for his stands on things we differ on. That's just Logic or Rhetoric 101.
You wrote this knowing that your own username has the phrase "radical individualist" in it?
It’s actually a fine joke against leftists. It is not possible to be radical simply by virtue of being an individualist.
I have come to the conclusion that he has that in there to be ironic.
They aren't held up merely for being anti-establishment (though I do appreciate that for its own sake as well). They are held up by people who think they are right about the things that most of the old line media is failing to challenge or even talk about much.
Rubbish. They are popular because they say things grounded in proven principles which happen to be true. That Demunists perceive them as “dissenting” says more about Demunists than about Tucker etc.
If you are going to sell people on using “Demunists” I suggest you spell it with two m’s: “Demmunists”. Otherwise, it’s too easy to read it as “dee-myoo-nists” and wonder what you are talking about.
You twice point to major news media figures talking about "policing" what Carleson says. As a good thing. As an obvious thing. We should all have what we say policed.
This is a libertarian publication. An American publication.
Why did that not strike you as odd?
The idea that "what he says needs to be policed" is anathema to freedom of the press. For my entire life that is something that no journalist would say. Not only that... it is anathema to freedom of speech... both of which are enshrined as bedrock American ideals in the first amendment to the constitution. The very first item in the bill of rights.
If there is a more un-American sentiment than policing what people say, I don't know what it is.
And the libertarian flagship can't bring itself to notice this.
For 235 years, this was baked into the culture. Somehow the left has managed to unwind that thread from the fabric of our nation in just a few short years.
The term "policing" doesn't mean "calling the police."
You really aren't that dumb, are you?
To wit... to post that you not only have to be dumb enough to assume that I meant it in a call the police sense.... but that you are dumb enough to think I am dumb enough to think that. Either of those requires a huge dollop of stupid.
Or.... you are being disingenuous and just trying to sidestep an issue with ridicule. Ridicule that requires an audience who doesn't understand what policing means in this context. Meaning you are dumb enough to think everyone else is dumb enough to believe that policing in this context refers to the police office and badges.
There really is no angle where you come out looking good on this one.
Then you explain why you are offended and angered by the media "policing" what your favorite pundit says.
Nobody who is an American thinks that what other people say requires policing. I mean, you have to be 11 kinds of stupid to have missed that. It was the entire point.
You might think having an editorial board and a cohesive publication that speaks with one editorial voice makes for a better product. You might think that good editors make for a more trustworthy product. You might think that having to pass through an editor will filter out errors and malicious misstatements.
But arguing that someone, anyone, in America should not be allowed to publish their own views without the permission of some corporation or editorial board is completely un-American. The entire country was founded on one guy with a printing press spewing forth his thoughts on the rights of man and the role of government. That is the most fundamental thing about the American experience.
I cannot imagine any American being so completely addled that they do not know this. I cannot wrap my head around a partisan so blinded by team that they cannot understand this. It is so simple we teach it to 4th graders.
That's not what policing means in this context. It means "calling out bullshit."
I'm policing what you say right now.
You are wrong no matter how you define policing.
Also you shouldn't be the one determining the meaning of words as you misuse them all the time.
policing
noun [ U ]
the job of controlling the way in which something is done
Definition 3.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/policing
No, Sarc, you're not policing jack or shit. Since you've claimed to have muted Jesse, even though he's posted the meaning, I'll reiterate it for you.
policing
noun [ U ]
the job of controlling the way in which something is done
Definition 3.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/policing
Except there is no shortage of people calling out Carlson on what they see as his bullshit. The cited comment from NBC wasn't saying that people should be able to respond when they think he is wrong. That would be absurd because millions of people are already doing that on Twitter and every other social media. They are lamenting that Twitter will allow him to say whatever he wants and won't punish him if he says wrong things. That is an attitude that is opposed to the very idea of free speech as a cultural value.
You really ARE that paranoid, aren't you?
Tom Costello isn't literally asking for the police to be called on Tucker Carlson and for him to be arrested.
Definition of police:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police
See definition 3a,b when the word is used as a verb.
And before you say WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING TOM COSTELLO, I'm not. I'm simply pointing out what he is ACTUALLY saying, not what you imagine him to be saying. What he ACTUALLY said is bad enough, it doesn't need to be embellished with paranoid fantasies.
Except we have many of examples since 2016 of this done with FBI and DoJ involvement.
It isnt paranoia if true. But you and sarc are for these things apparently so will attack and call those pointing it out conspiracy theorists.
Not a big government leftist.
We found the other guy who js too stupid to understand that other people are smarter than he is.
Wow.
You have to be spectacularly stupid to run with that thread.
guy who js too stupid to understand that other people are smarter than he is
The irony! It burns!
Add irony to another word sarc doesn't understand.
I've offered to buy him a dictionary and a thesaurus, but to no avail.
He's afraid of dinosaurs.
Dude. Everyone here has read what you write for years. They have read me for years. Nobody is confused about who has a greater grasp on complex issues.
It takes a stupid or dishonest person to take a simple issue and overcomplicate it. This isn't a complicated issue here. You're making it so to obfuscate and cover your misstatement. You could have owned up to being wrong about what was meant by "policing" but you won't. You'd lose face to your tribe by admitting that I was right and you were wrong. Better to be wrong, right?
You bore me.
The only one attempting obfuscation here is you by arguing incorrectly about use if a common term to try to dispute a point. Problem is there are examples of policing even using the terminology you demand.
See? This bullshit behavior right here is why I have the mendacious fuck muted. It's the Sarcasmic Maneuver. It clutters threads with pointless refutation of idiotic positions.
Or even just common definitions of simple words in basic English.
Oh give it a rest. You wrote:
The idea that “what he says needs to be policed” is anathema to freedom of the press. For my entire life that is something that no journalist would say.
This is clearly in a context of interpreting "police" to mean "using state police power against journalists", when instead the word means "imposing a set of rules and regulations" that do not necessarily have anything to do with any state police force.
So interpreting "policing" in this latter way, there is absolutely nothing anathema or unconstitutional about saying "what he said needs to be policed" because all that statement means is that journalists ought to be held to a set of standards. Which is what ALL OF US here would agree with as long as those standards are self-imposed and not imposed by the state.
So no, your original statement only plausibly makes sense if you actually believe that Tom Costello was literally demanding that Tucker Carlson would be arrested and thrown in jail by the police. Because your tinfoil hat was tied on a little too tight this morning. You got caught and you won't admit it.
I will state once again, the FBI literally raided PV. Obama spied on journalists with the FBI. I know you ignore inconvenient facts, but it happens. Even the latest Fox lawsuit where the judge pre ruled on acts disallowing basically aby defensive argument is another example. Government agencies coordinating to scare advertisers from funding media sources is another. Government disinformation agencies another. But keep going jeff. You're doing great.
So interpreting “policing” in this latter way, there is absolutely nothing anathema or unconstitutional about saying “what he said needs to be policed” because all that statement means is that journalists ought to be held to a set of standards. Which is what ALL OF US here would agree with as long as those standards are self-imposed and not imposed by the state.
Exactly.
I literally posted the definition for both of you yet you continue to be retarded.
All you managed to communicate is that you don't understand what the 4th estate means to a free society and that you actually believed all the "it is a private company" nonsense was a rejoinder to objections to corporate censorship of political ideas.
Civics education in this country has failed.
Dude, the job of the 4th estate is to, among other things, police the information put forth by the government!
Police as a verb doesn't mean government force.
I don't think anyone is claiming that it does mean government force. But it does mean censorship and deplatforming. It seems pretty clear that what they mean by "policing" here is platforms limiting what people are allowed to say. No one has suggested that people shouldn't call Carlson a stupid idiot misinformer hypocrite. Only that it's good that Twitter is letting him speak freely. Free speech needs to be a strong cultural value as well as a legal principle if it is to survive.
Civicseducation in this country has failed.Sarc was educated on the mean streets of Maine.
Obviously educated by bears in trunks.
Failed? It was murdered.
I’m impressed with you and sarc. Really.
It takes balls to say something so blatantly idiotic and then to double and triple down on it.
Dutch courage.
If he ever sobers up he'd die of shame.
Sarc has run away from me for months now since his drunken threats against me evaporated, after he sobered up. He’s a massive pussy.
The fuck else could you have meant when you said this?
If there is a more un-American sentiment than policing what people say, I don’t know what it is.
Sounds to me like "policing" means calling the police.
If you meant something else, please tell.
What in the Twitter files do you still not understand?
Policing in the context of what Costello is calling for, which he laid out for you btw, would OBVIOUSLY mean limiting what someone says and barring them from expressing their thoughts.
You know, like deplatforming, shadowbanning, etc.
Anyone who understands basic turns of phrases and figures of speech immediately knows it is not intended to refer to calling the police.
Yes, yes he is
Sarcasmic is correct. Post 2015, it means calling the FBI.
Oh thank God we didn’t just have government looking and censoring thought online as you cried conspiracy theory leading to the arrest and conviction of someone making a meme.
This did not include the FBI monitoring churches and parents.
This did not include raids on media like PV.
Thank God.
I am impressed at the amount of people that can just walk past the idea of the FBI's desire to develop assets within church organizations.
It's deliberate.
In this context "policing" means verifying information and calling out liars.
In the wake of Carlson being caught knowingly promoting lies about voting machines to stir up partisan hatred while defending a president he despised, I can see why Trump supporters would be so vehemently opposed to the media doing any "policing" of anyone on their team.
Is this a rationalization of the misinformation industry or just pure ignorance?
Oh, wow. You really are the first kind of stupid.
No, that is not what policing means at all.
By policing he is referring to editorial control over the topics and content of a writers work. He means not just that writers are best served by having an editor to reign them in, but that they should not be *allowed* to write without such control from above. Specifically, from a corporate hired editor, not just any old editor.
Sorry but you're just plain wrong. Thank you for playing.
Explain how, rationally, with examples.
He can’t, hence the lack of response.
Dude. Your interpretation cannot possibly be right.
You say he means "calling out lies".
Rolling your own show or your own publication does nothing to immunize you from being called out for your lies.
It does, however, allow you to express your thoughts, accurate or not, salient or not, without a gatekeeper.
I cannot imagine that you really thought that I meant "call the police to arrest him". But only slightly less unbelievable is thinking that he means "calling out lies" as policing. A 4th grader would not have made either of those mistakes.
I cannot imagine that you really thought that I meant “call the police to arrest him”.
Don't know what else you could have meant with this gem.
If there is a more un-American sentiment than policing what people say, I don’t know what it is.
If you are referring to internal policing then that's a different matter, but it certainly doesn't appear that way from that statement.
Internal policing is just another way of saying "editing." But again it has nothing to do with the law or the government.
The concept of free speech is not limited to only the government. Society, or even a subset, should not have the power to dictate what others say. Or to 'police'. The 1A applies only to what the government can or can't do, but it isn't the entire concept of free speech. No one is stopping anyone from calling Carlson a liar because he is now independent. That is the worst take possible. It's blatantly dishonest to read it that way. How does Tucker being independent at all stop others from calling out his lies and mistakes? The only logical way to read the statement is that he obviously meant no one can now control what Carlson says. Which is a good thing. Don't like what he says, do a show on everything he says that is wrong. Host it on Twitter. That would also be a good thing for the concept of free speech. How else would his being independent stop others from policing him except that he no longer is under the control of an employer? There is simply no logical way to read it any other way. To try and state it is about identifying his mistakes and lies, how does his being independent stop others from doing that? Explain that. Instead of insisting explain how his being independent stops others from calling him a liar. I am betting you can't because you know you're full of shit.
Goddamn man.
I really wish you would follow through with your threats to beat me up. Then I would have a legal pretext to teach you a lesson that you hav long needed.
Plus, I just really dislike you. You’re a loud mouthed pussy, and a craven, drunken, lying coward. This is why everyone hates you. Here, and I expect in your personal life. If anyone is still tolerates your presence.
PS, it’s not so much that I’m a tough guy Sarc, it’s just obvious that you’re a weak cowardly piece of shit that probably doesn’t have the guts for a fight, even if you the aptitude for it. Which I sincerely doubt.
I also cannot imagine that you don't understand that this principle stands outside of government. It pre-exists the United states. It was a linchpin in the founding of the country out of an autocratic, totalitarian state run by a monarch. The culture of free speech and freedom of the press is larger than the state, not smaller.
15 years ago almost nobody would have made your error. Not in the US.
And certainly not from a left or left libertarian viewpoint.
For the 15th time, Carlson did NOT promote lies about voting machines, he exposed them.
You are the promoter of lies
Even better, it seems that Fox itself is promoting this narrative. "It wsnt us... it was Tucker."
Despite being presented with dozens of mainstream sources demonstrating the exact opposite, Sarcasmic seems oddly determined to continue propagating his lie.
It's actually really strange and disheartening just how common this false narrative is.
In the wake of Carlson being caught knowingly promoting lies about voting machines to stir up partisan hatred while defending a president he despised
That's literally the opposite of what happened. Carlson specifically called out Sidney Powell's bullshit.
And you just policed sarcasmic's comment. Congratulations!
Oh look, a third moron who doesn’t understand what policing means in the context of this conversation.
So we've redefined "disagreeing with" as "policing". I'm going to keep this one in my back pocket.
Go right ahead. I was congratulating you, not criticizing you.
It’s perfectly OK in my book to read other people’s comments and point out when they’ve got their facts wrong. That is literally a form of policing their comments.
I police comments a lot, because a lot of anti-libertarian bullshit gets posted around here. And it’s fair game when someone polices my comments back.
"I police comments a lot"
No shit, and "a lot" is a serious understatement.
"because a lot of anti-libertarian bullshit gets posted around here."
Mainly by you, Sarcasmic, Jeff and Shillsy. The four of you seem to think government censorship and authoritarianism is hunky dory if it's for the right cause.
Comrade, your only freedoms are the chains of socialism which bind us all.
Calling out a lie is now policing. Got it.
Exactly what sarcasmic just claimed earlier, but backwards.
""In this context “policing” means verifying information and calling out liars.""
Call out liars. That's funny. Who decides the truth?
We've seen how well that works. Everyone who said Hunter's laptop wasn't a Russian op, or that COVID-19 came from a lab leak was branded as the liars.
"You twice point to major news media figures talking about “policing” what Carleson says. As a good thing. As an obvious thing."
I completely disagree. 2Chili is not endorsing policing. He is merely calling out that the ability for editors and other monolith media cultures to police people is waning.
Read closer- 2Chili is merely noting that people who WANT policing are no longer going to get that. He doesn't outright say if that is a good or bad thing (though I think the balance of his article is that he does think the proliferation of voices is good). The worst he says about Carlson is to point out (accurately, imho) that behind the scenes Carlson wasn't exactly the truth-teller he claims to be.
My point is that we casually accept that members of the press *expect* that writers be controlled in what they can say.
This is new.
This would not exist in 1968 USA.
This would not exist in 1977 USA.
By 1990 the image we projected for an independent press was beginning to crack... but it still held sway.
In all of that time, nobody from any media outlet would have accepted the notion that what a journalist says needs to be controlled. Even those who spent their days fighting their editors to get stories published would have seen the idea that a reporter *cannot* go it alone as unthinkable. They might have said it was a bad idea (from a "you are going to either get yourself sued or you are going to go broke" point of view) but they never would have just nodded along if another reporter argued that it is a bad thing for society at large if a writer steps outside this box.
Flag burning, pissing on a crucifix, even sticking a bullwhip up your butt were all lauded as wonderful examples of American dedication to free speech.
Now, saying spending $150 billion on weapons for Ukrainians to use to kill Russians is a bad idea is wrongthink that should not be possible in American society.
It is hard to accept this level of change. This isn't superficial. This is fundamental to who we are.
And the weirdo libertarians should be the first in line defending dissident voices. And not just voices in favor of fetish sex services for hire, but voices that challenge our political parades.
I was there in the 80s to march for gay rights. I was there when we fought to allow idiots from the KKK to march in Atlanta, even as my (black) wife and I counterprotested their message.
We used to have far fewer alternatives... but we had more diversity. We had the Village Voice, High Times, and a raft of local weekly publications that advertised sex services under dating euphemisms.
I have been shocked as that 'alt' ethos has died.
Today's Woodward and Bernstein are told to sit down and shut up.
Look at how Weiss and Taibbi and crew have been received. Every mainstream publication has rushed to "debunk" them.
What self-respecting reporter would do that? We were raised on a mythos of Murrow, Cronkite and Woodward. Stand up to the man. Get the story. Fight the power.
We are so far from that ethos that a writer opining that another writer should not be allowed to go forth absent corporate oversight is not met with any shock at all. It is just another opinion to be taken into account. (And the counter argument is not "what the hell are you thinking?" But is "it won't be a big deal")
For those of you who were not alive, a writer making that argument in 1982 would have been excoriated across the national press. Nobody would have pulled a Clinton and tried to parse the difference between government and corporations.
We have lost something that is extremely important.
Nice, but you expressly said
You completely misread what he wrote, and that is what Overt called you out on, and that is what you are trying to pretend you never said.
Look, this is not unique. The idea that someone should police reporters- even in the reporting industry- is as old as the republic. Go read the yellow journalism of the 1900s and the war time publications around ww2. You will find many people- including other journalists- lamenting that so-and-so has some platform.
This is because journalism, like any industry, has been under constant pressure and disruption for all that time. From manual presses, to industrialization, to radio, to TV, to cable, to the internet, new mediums have given platforms for new voices. And the entrenched interests for one medium have always reacted poorly to the new interests that are competing with them.
50 years ago, if you weren't working for a large media empire your ability to dissent from "The Message" was far harder. But today, the proliferation of platforms is still at risk from other directions. This is the point that people like Taibbi and Greenwald are pointing out: that the "Police" aren't sitting on their laurels. They are actively trying to counter independent voices, and increasingly work with the government to do it.
Look, this is not unique. The idea that someone should police reporters- even in the reporting industry- is as old as the republic. Go read the yellow journalism of the 1900s and the war time publications around ww2. You will find many people- including other journalists- lamenting that so-and-so has some platform.
Yes, Eugene Debs was arrested for dissenting against WWI. But in the modern context (and yes, I'll cherry pick and say 'post 1960s) the press railed against such ideas. Now they're fully on board with them again. So I think it's fair to say that within the context of the lifetime scope of most commenters here, this is reasonably "new".
"But in the modern context (and yes, I’ll cherry pick and say ‘post 1960s) the press railed against such ideas."
Yeah my point is that is just an artifact of this disruptive evolution at play.
Water is wet, and people would rather silence an opponent than win the day in a discussion. And so the history of communication has been one where a medium of communication is developed and these "Police" lock down that institution. Sometimes that is done with the force of government- as it is easier. But in the US, the First Amendment has been an irksome bitch to such totalitarians.
But that hasn't prevented people in America form recognizing the power of, and seeking control of the mediums of communication. Even in the era of the Internet, we see how people have sought to lock down Wikipedia and Reddit as mediums of communication by capturing the moderators.
What is unique about the 60s - 80s when Reporters were proclaiming Truth to Power? Well, those reporters were firmly in control of a very constrained set of mediums. And those mediums were constrained largely because of government diktats. There were only 3 networks, largely because of the government. Government rules also led to consolidation of the AP, and newspapers. So yes, what you saw were reporters who controlled the means of communication keeping the government at arm's length.
But that facade was crumbling as early as the 90s. As cable took off, and CNN and Fox began their ascent, suddenly Reporters were becoming worried about "Corporate Media" and even worse, "Faux News". When their information monopoly was challenged by millions of fact checkers on the internet, they tut-tutted about bloggers in pajamas who don't have layers of fact-checking.
So my point (sorry) is that what we observed in the 60s is no different than what we observe today- certain tribes getting control over lines of communication and using that control to argue for their role as police. In the 60s, the tribe in control was the reporters, who had no one threatening their place except the government. As soon as cable and the internet became a threat, their story changed as well.
We are about 40 years past 1984. They have a lot of catching up to do.
2034 would be a more prescient title.
It was not accidental at all, but rather the result of a malicious yet effective propaganda coup.
Many (most?) people today who profess to be Libertarians aren’t, and have no clue what Libertarianism even is. This all stems back to the successful Marxist propaganda coup around 1900. Persecuted and hounded (and rightfully so), Marxists we’re desperate for camouflage. So, they cooked up a plan. They convinced a couple of no-name academics to cook up a brand new “philosophy” (actually just a regurgitation of Marx) and called it “social liberalism.” Claiming it was “the next step in Liberalism!,” it was in fact the absolute antithesis of Liberalism (Orwell was impressed at the doublespeak). Instead of individual rights (Liberty), it was based on the fictional notion of “group rights” (Statism). Instead of government procuring it’s powers from the People, people derived their rights (if any) from a beneficent government (which has never existed anywhere). Instead of a government role limited to referee, government is the primary player. Etc.
They had all their Allie’s in media, academia, and government sing the same song (just like that brilliant montage a few years back of everyone in the media parroting the exact same phrases), and students in college were all taught that “this is what Liberalism is.” Every Marxist tacitly understood they were now “Liberals,” and so they professed – erasing as best they could what Liberalism actually was.
Sadly, propaganda works.
What about all of Tucker's lies? Or did you not read Matt Welch's attack on Carlson for speaking badly about Journalists™ (pbuh)?
" . . . shift in the balance of power between the media and its subjects," Hamilton Nolan wrote in 2020 for the Columbia Journalism Review. "The subjects are winning."
They consider us, the public, their 'subjects'? What's that make them, our 'lords'? Talk about saying the quiet part out loud.
We don't hate the mainstream media nearly enough.
I was taking that word in the sense of "subject line" from an email, not as in "subject of a monarchy". But I might be giving them credit they don't deserve.
If the subjects were the topics they were writing about, in what sense would they be 'winning'?
(Unless he means that in most cases, journalists have somewhere between a cursory, zero, or mis- understanding of the topics they cover. As in 'Wow, this subject matter is really kicking this reporter's ass.')
If the subjects were the topics they were writing about, in what sense would they be ‘winning’?
Go read the Columbia Journalism Review article. The gist is that rich people like Jeff Bezos don't need traditional media as a middleman to get publicity because they can reach the public directly.
In the sense of "the people they are talking about". It's still elitist as fuck, mind you, in that it supposes a world in which the journalist and the subject of their journalism are in contest, and that it's bad that the journalists can't say whatever they want about their subjects of discussion and bend those subjects to their will. But I didn't take it as directly aristocratic. Similar, I suppose.
By "subjects" he meant the people the reporters are reporting on, not the readers. This is clearer if you go read the linked Columbia Journalism Review article, where you get the context of the paragraphs leading up to the quote.
"Will anybody be able to police what Carlson says, or is this the point? It's just a free for all?" NBC News's Tom Costello asked earlier this week
Oh man! What a censorious authoritarian douchebag! Amirite folks?
This points to a real problem that I've been talking about for a while now. In our current news media model, the news is delivered via some type of subscription model. And the market incentives for this type of model is for providers to deliver the news that the customers want to hear, what some might call "fan-service journalism". So if Alice is going to buy a subscription to the NY Times, she expects to read stories that reflect her biases and deliver the news according to her preferred set of narratives. She isn't interested in stories that say that Trump did something good - she can read that on any sleazy right-wing website, why would she pay good money to read that in a place like the NY Times? And the same goes in reverse for right-of-center media. The problem with this model, however, is that truth itself becomes the casualty. In this model, NONE of the news organizations are delivering "just the facts, ma'am" type of news; they are delivering what their readers expect to see, whether or not it is the truth. And since not all of us can personally experience every single facet of objective reality personally, if enough people accept the narrative, then for all intents and purposes, that narrative BECOMES reality.
So Tom Costello is pointing to a real problem, but in a completely douchebaggy and un-self-aware way. There needs to be a market for real truth-based reporting, that is willing to tell its readers what they don't necessarily want to hear if it corresponds to objective reality. As far as I can see, that type of reporting can't exist in the current model, where all journalism devolves into fan-service journalism. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know it's a real problem.
I don't disagree that media outlets have incentives that compromise "the truth". But the real problem is that people like yourself think there is some solution to this basic reality. If you are getting information from other people, by definition it is filtered by their biases. There is no solving this, just acknowledging it.
Whether they are the mouthpieces of a corporation dependent on "fan service subscriptions", or they are the mouthpiece of a government, or they are the mouthpiece of whatever ideology they adopted in school, or they are mouthpieces for the particular culture they identify with- journalists are always (and will never stop) filtering "the truth" according to their personal agenda and worldview.
Your feeling that this is a problem that can somehow be "fixed" is distracting you from a basic reality: Data is all around us, and it is the responsibility for each individual to identify how to curate and use it.
There needs to be a market for real truth-based reporting, that is willing to tell its readers what they don’t necessarily want to hear if it corresponds to objective reality.
I believe there is an audience out there for what you describe, but it is limited to intelligent, mature people. The deeper problem America has is a maturity problem. In general, we (the collective "we") have become childish.
A lack of self-awareness isn't apparently limited to Sarcasmic.
"In general, we (the collective “we”) have become childish."
No, this is the Mike and Chemjeff we. You are children. You are children who think that when someone says something they agree with, it must be truth. When you were spreading around the Ivermectin hoax as an attempt to ridicule people you disagree with, you were being a child. When you later acted as if you would never believe such stuff, you were being a child.
No doubt there are childish people in this world who put their fingers in their ears so they don't have to listen to shit they disagree with. But then there are children like yourselves who naively believe that some mythical authority can deliver the truth.
Notice that the left vitriol is against Tucker Carleson, the sort of populist, anti-establishment conservative who is against war, against lockdowns, against censorship... generally libertarian adjacent.
But not against Sean Hannity, the establishment republican conservative who toes the party line and supports Trump unfailingly from the inside.
Why would that be? Why is the dissenting voice who platforms people like Glenn Greenwald, Edward Snowden, Matt Taibbi and Robert Kennedy Jr. the one who catches the ire of not only the left-media and the establishment media , but of alternative media like Reason?
The defenders here are the same defenders of misinformation boards buttressed by government dollars and agents. The people who utilize government resources to try and remove ad spending on disfavored views. Basically corporate fascists who support things like Operation Chokepoint.
Not the two biggest defenders here this morning as jeff and sarc.
Sarcasmic, M4E, JFree and White Mike all are exactly like Tom Parsons in 1984.
Shrike and Jeff on the other hand, both imagine themselves to be O'Brien.
Reason is establishment media
Just for the record, while you were sleeping Reason stopped being alternative media an drank the kool-aid from a 55 gallon drum.
Not seeing it. For one thing, Reason has long targeted being libertarian yet mainstream, not alternative. It might have been alternative way back in the Lanny Frielander days, but that was long, long ago when it was a startup magazine.
Not seeing it.
Yes you do, but you've been indoctrinated not to believe your lying eyes.
Plus, he’s the unpaid intern sworn to loyalty.
Why is the dissenting voice who platforms people like Glenn Greenwald, Edward Snowden, Matt Taibbi and Robert Kennedy Jr. the one who catches the ire of not only the left-media and the establishment media , but of alternative media like Reason?
If you're a conservative news guy and you're going to have conversations with lefties, you have to have conversations with the lefties of the proper sort. Like... *checks notes* a Sex Work advocate or something.
Food trucks.
When you read this article by 2Chili and Welch's last night, you see exactly why Tucker is becoming successful, and it isn't because people like Tucker Carlson lying to them.
Let's start with Welch. His condescending, sneering screed was just as much of a fiction as he accuses Carlson of selling. Welch had the temerity to argue that reporters are never restrained, editorially, and thus Carlson was serving up a big fat lie. His counter evidence is nothing more than his personal feelings and anecdotes from 2005 to disprove what Carlson and others say is a recent phenomenon.
On the other hand, 2Chili can accept that Carlson is an exagerating, potentially hypocritical, bombastic, firebrand, and also recognize that his statement has merit. As 2Chili points out, Carlson's statement is pretty close to what Bari Weiss, Glenn Greenwald, and Matt Taibbi all attested to when they moved publishers. Similar editorial restraint led Glenn Reynolds to leave USA Today during the Biden Laptop event. Rather than explore those angles, Welch substituted his own feelings for data, insisting that HE never felt constrained by editorial policy.
Welch's own magazine (Reason) has been covering examples of the Federal Government using selective leaking, and soft power to groom reporters, and intimidate newsrooms. It has reported on how government was funding NGOs that have acted like watchdogs on American traditional and social media. We have quotes FROM editors explaining how they built ideological monoliths in their newsrooms. We have the testimony of numerous journalists as chronicled above. Added all up, Welch's one-sided screed comes off as the same type of "Don't believe your lying eyes" temper tantrum that Reason tried serving up prior to the Boudin recall- where authors used NYT articles as evidence that San Franciscans were over-estimating the crime in their back yards.
I am not saying that Carlson is the total victim here, and that his points are 100% accurate. I am saying that, based on the evidence provided by Taibbi, Greenwald, Weiss, Reynolds, and a host of others, Carlson's view of the industry rings a lot more true than Welch's. And as 2Chili notes above, 3/4 of the American Public- not just conservatives- seem to be in agreement.
2Chili writes an article above that actually deals with the totality of this argument, to explore what is happening. Welch's merely reinforces the same tired, Blue-Bubble narrative that Carlson is a big fat liar and those deplorables want it. Is it any shock that 2Chili lives in Arizona while Welch lives in Brooklyn, NY?
And if you are reading this and saying, "But wait, Carlson *is* a big fat liar, and all those deplorables *do* want to be lied to (or are too stupid to know the difference)!" then you too have a problem, and I would highly recommend some introspection, if you ever want a peaceful life. Because no matter how hard you insist such a delusion is true, reality will forever be there to undermine it- leading to stress and and an ongoing incomprehension of why half the world disagrees with you.
Nice
And if you are reading this and saying, “But wait, Carlson *is* a big fat liar, and all those deplorables *do* want to be lied to (or are too stupid to know the difference)!” then you too have a problem, and I would highly recommend some introspection, if you ever want a peaceful life.
Oh just knock it off with your "deplorables" victimhood mentality. The issue is bigger than you think.
Just look at the Fox-Dominion lawsuit. We have on record now Fox execs who said that they were nervous and uneasy about repeating the "2020 stolen election" fantasies but they felt pressure to keep doing so because *that's what their viewers wanted*. This is "fan-service journalism" that I talk about above. And it is not unique to Fox.
The entire modern news media model is predicated on the assumption that ALL OF US, not just the "deplorables", want to be lied to with our news. That we pay money for a subscription, and therefore we the customers are entitled for the "news" delivered with the correct set of biases and narratives that the subscription is supposed to purchase. It is not just Fox News.
And what people like Tucker, and Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, et al., are doing is that they are branding THEIR particular narrative as "the truth". They say "we dissent from the mainstream consensus and we will deliver the news that they don't want you to hear". But if you dig in to what they really do, they are delivering the same type of "fan service journalism" that Fox News or MSNBC or NY Times does, just BRANDED as "the truth". They frame the news using their own narratives, they lie by omission, they omit key context, etc. If you watch any of Glenn Greenwald's videos, do you think you will ever see him present, faithfully and correctly and truthfully, the position of the IC? Of course not. Because his entire perspective is an anti-IC one. That is fine, but it is not "the truth". Go to any one of The Twitter Files that Matt Taibbi authored and I can find at least one, and probably several, instances where he deliberately lied by omission in order to push a narrative. And too many people fall for this schtick, particularly libertarians around here who really just want "anti-establishment malcontents" without regard to accuracy or truthfulness, just someone who will burn it all down.
Lol. So you believe only one narrative should ever be allowed to be spoken publicly. You mention fox. How do you feel about MSNBC, CNN, et al and the Trump russia lies. Wait you supported those.
“But if you dig in to what they really do, they are delivering the same type of “fan service journalism””
Wow, you have really hit on it. Who’d have thought that in a free market, journalists with a certain world view would tend to have viewers with the same world view. Who’d have thought that the virtuous cycle of trade might lead to the seller and the buyer influencing each other’s world.
Congratulations. You have discovered something that I learned in 10th Grade Theory of Knowledge- that discovering “The Truth” is actually not straight forward, and is more of a process than a state of being.
I frankly don’t disagree that each person has their own bias. That includes you who (as near as I can tell) has expressed the same concern for government censorship by proxy as you have expressed for vaccine mandates- that concern being minimizing the behavior and leveling incessant vitriol against anyone who brings the subjects up.
The difference between you and folks like Tucile and I is that I think it is a good thing that the voices are becoming more diverse. This is why I criticize Reason tapping journalists from blue-bubble enclaves- especially to report on facts outside their blue bubbles. They come off as completely clueless and out of touch, and it hurts Reason’s ability to convince people at the margins.
2Chili’s article above- despite correctly criticizing Carlson’s editorial decisions in the past- did far more to advance the cause of liberty than when KMW sends out reporters in NY and DC to tell us how it is.
The difference between you and folks like Tucile and I is that I think it is a good thing that the voices are becoming more diverse.
And I think it depends entirely on the quality of those voices. Again this isn't about their right to say things, but the words that they use. It could be, in the end, that their contributions provide a net benefit to the discovery of truth. Or, it could very well be that they represent a step backwards, when they realize that their BRANDING of their narrative as "the truth" becomes more and more successful and they feel more free to take greater and greater liberties with their reporting, knowing that their audience will continue to believe that whatever they say is "the truth". I think it could go either way. And I am generally a pessimist on the matter.
Who determines the quality of a voice jeff? Again you advocate implicitly for some type or regulatory front to decide what is true.
Like some sort of... policing group.
Ha!
LOL.
"And I think it depends entirely on the quality of those voices." (and earlier you said) "That they have the ABILITY to express their opinions? Of course. Whether their contributions to the overall discourse is a net positive remains to be seen."
So this is the divide between us. And this is why you will forever give a pass to Authoritarians, because you have this authoritarian blind spot.
I cannot stress enough this difference between us: Free expression is an unmitigated, unalloyed good. It is always a net positive, without qualification. It is good because it is moral. And it is good because it will always, in the end, result in a more moral society. Speech without coercion, and the ability to speak without coercion is good for society.
You, on the other hand, continue to believe it is knowable what is QUALITY speech. You have repeatedly insisted that one can know quality speech based on the person doing the speaking. You have no way to measure this, or to suggest how a system could be constructed that could measure quality with quality. All you can do is "come to conclusions" that certain messages are bad quality when (coincidentally, I'm sure) they fail to support your world view.
I cannot stress enough this difference between us: Free expression is an unmitigated, unalloyed good. It is always a net positive, without qualification. It is good because it is moral. And it is good because it will always, in the end, result in a more moral society. Speech without coercion, and the ability to speak without coercion is good for society.
Well, this is a difference between us. Because I believe what you wrote is simply not true. Yes, free expression is good, and it is the moral position to take. Nonetheless, there is a cost associated with the exercise of any liberty - at a bare minimum, there is an opportunity cost. What are some costs associated with free expression?
- "Hate speech" - the targets of this speech suffer constant abuse with little recourse.
- Pornography, and its attendant social costs
- Vulgar and inappropriate language that we all must occasionally be exposed to in public settings
- Election-related spending (= speech) which can have corrupting influences
- Defamatory speech that doesn't rise to be legally actionable but yet impugns the victim's character enough to have an effect
- Obscene and blasphemous expression that is legally protected
- Threatening speech that doesn't rise to the level of illegal "true threats" yet is still threatening enough to induce fear and change the victim's behavior
- And just generally, the social costs associated with having a ginormous amount of garbage speech on the internet and on social media (people spend way too much of their spare time consuming garbage and dulling their brains)
Team Blue will try to apply a cost/benefit analysis and claim that free expression is only justified if the benefits outweigh the costs. So they will try to claim that "hate speech" is not legally protected speech because the costs outweigh the benefits. Same with election-related speech.
Team Red will pretend to claim that they are in favor of free expression, but in reality, what they will do is simply declare certain expression that they deem 'immoral' to be not valid speech. So they'll say that they are totally in favor of free speech, except pornography doesn't really count or certain blasphemous speech doesn't really count.
What libertarians should do is come out in favor of free expression, because we support liberty *for its own sake*. Libert is an end unto itself. We support free expression not because we think it will produce a positive cost/benefit analysis, or because it will produce 'moral' speech, but because liberty is the birthright of all mankind.
And because we are adults who want to be taken seriously, we should not ignore the problems or pretend they don't exist. Instead we should propose ways to mitigate those problems within a context of liberty. We can propose ways for individuals to install pornography blockers on their computers voluntarily if they so choose. We can encourage individuals to voluntarily use their liberty wisely and not to deliberately antagonize or inflame other people with hateful or vulgar or blasphemous speech that serves no constructive purpose. We can propose voluntary transparency rules for political campaigns so that voters know how the money is being used, so they can judge for themselves whether it is a corrupting influence or not. But we should not pretend that there are no problems at all.
So yes that is a big difference between the two of us.
“Because I believe what you wrote is simply not true”
Because you are a collectivist and an authoritarian.
repeated for emphasis
we support liberty *for its own sake*. Libert is an end unto itself. We support free expression not because we think it will produce a positive cost/benefit analysis, or because it will produce ‘moral’ speech, but because liberty is the birthright of all mankind.
And yet you spent two plus years vilifying anyone who bristled at the government’s restrictions on liberty because of Covid. And going on 7 years of calling anyone who disagrees with YOUR point of view as being a Trump Cultist.
There's a reason why I call Jeff a Nazi, and this response illustrates why it's not hyperbole.
or certain blasphemous speech doesn’t really count.
They're prosecuting a homeless man with "hate crimes" for street shitting on a pride flag crosswalk, meanwhile a crucifix in a jar of urine earns a National Endowment for the Arts grant.
But Jeff wants you to believe that the problem is somehow on the right.
You can believe this is bookmarked for when you claim in the future you support free speech.
I mean, can you even define who determines corrupted political speech? Doesn't that just infer things you don't agree with? LOL.
"Yes, free expression is good, and it is the moral position to take. Nonetheless, there is a cost associated with the exercise of any liberty – at a bare minimum, there is an opportunity cost. What are some costs associated with free expression?"
What is funny here is that you have just made the opposite of your previous argument.
I said "I think it is a good thing that the voices [of journalists] are becoming more diverse."
You said, "that depends on the quality of those voices."
From there, you went on a screed arguing about pornography, and hate speech. You seem to have abandoned your original stance that it is only a good thing to have more journalistic voices if they are "quality".
For the record, your argument is not substantially different than one I was making, with a few quibbles. And it is completely at odds with your argument that the good of freedom of expression depends on the "quality" of the expression.
That includes you who (as near as I can tell) has expressed the same concern for government censorship by proxy as you have expressed for vaccine mandates- that concern being minimizing the behavior and leveling incessant vitriol against anyone who brings the subjects up.
And, kindly: fuck you.
Let's talk about "government censorship by proxy". Yes that is a bad thing. But we also need a strict definition of what that actually is. Otherwise the term loses all meaning. For example, in your view, which one of these constitutes effective "government censorship by proxy"?
1. Senator Blowhard gives a speech where he says "It is regrettable that Twitter permits so much misinformation on its platform"
2. Senator Blowhard asks Elon Musk at a committee hearing about Twitter's processes to "combat misinformation"
3. Senator Blowhard thunderously declares on the floor of the Senate, "Twitter had better clean up its platform or Congress will act!"
4. Senator Blowhard introduces a bill in Congress to regulate the content of Twitter to "combat misinformation"
5. Senator Blowhard makes a private phone call to Elon Musk demanding that he do something to "combat misinformation"
6. Senator Blowhard, now elected President, asks the FCC to investigate Twitter's misinformation practices
7. President Blowhard sends the US Marshals to arrest Elon Musk and nationalize Twitter
So what I have observed in this forum, from many various people, that they are willing to consider ALL of these to be examples of "government censorship by proxy" at least to an implied extent. And I object to making the term THAT broad. In my opinion, only #7 clearly qualifies, and MAYBE #5 and #6, and that's it. And we both know that the major reason that they are willing to consider making the term so broad, is not out of some dedication to free speech absolutism, but because it makes Democrats look bad. Because, again let's be honest, Trump said some pretty nasty vile awful things while he was president and they said nary a peep about how it was "government censorship by proxy".
Oh, and here's the trickiest one of all:
8a. Elon Musk voluntarily cooperates with the FBI and NSA to remove misinformation from Twitter that would be harmful to national security
8b. Elon Musk is pressured and strongarmed by the FBI and NSA to remove misinformation from Twitter that would be harmful to national security
But from the outside, we don't actually know if reality corresponds to 8a or 8b. It could be either one. All we see, from the outside, is Elon Musk, FBI, and NSA "working together". So - government censorship by proxy, or not?
So the issue is far more complicated than what the screeching howling monkeys on the right are yelling about it, and if we want to have an adult conversation on the matter, we have to put aside the obvious partisan team point-scoring and look at the issue rationally and intelligently.
And you aren't helping when you imply that because I don't join in with the screaming howler monkey chorus that I am somehow "minimizing the behavior" of censorship. Nope. I simply want it CLEARLY DEFINED.
How about direct funding of agencies to directly fund censorship groups coordinating with industry retard?
"So what I have observed in this forum, from many various people, that they are willing to consider ALL of these to be examples of “government censorship by proxy” at least to an implied extent."
What I have observed is that you are more invested in picking nits and drawing lines than acknowledging that all of the above are happening, and therefore- regardless of where you draw the line- we should be very concerned.
In the real world, we recognize that there are "totalities of circumstances" that result in a crime. For example, in the workplace, a person making a racist comment likely will not be considered illegal. However, a "Hostile Workplace" can arise if many events pile up- each one perhaps innocuous on its own, but when taken together demonstrate a trend. Likewise, judges and reasonable people have long understood that the sort of threatening behavior that justifies a restraining order could occur from a single incident, or a totality of smaller incidents viewed together.
We aren't talking about a single Senator making a speech. We are talking about many senators repeatedly calling officials before them, over and over, and over again. We are talking about those government officials threatening legislation AND making private phone calls AND sending letters to the DA AND setting up bureaus and committees AND threatening lucrative contracts AND writing letters to other regulatory authorities AND appointing regulators with a history of writing papers that demand punishing companies for failing to moderate appropriately.
AND we have the government sending money directly to NGOs who go around threatening to blacklist companies that fail to censor for the government.
"But from the outside, we don’t actually know if reality corresponds to 8a or 8b."
Yeah, and it doesn't matter.
The government is literally calling a proxy and requesting that certain speech, or categories of speech be removed. Whether the "proxy" chooses to comply because they are threatened, strong armed, paid, looking for future pay/favors, or because they just trust the government, they are acting as a proxy.
I don't know how more clearly I can put this: The government does not have the POWER to request the removal of speech. And for them to threaten or request a private actor to do so is a violation of that power. And for a proxy to honor that request- whether coerced or in solidarity- is conspiring with the government to do something it never had the power to do.
Don't get me wrong, we should give sympathy to companies that censor-by-proxy through coercion. And we should vilify private actors that censor-by-proxy through some sort of solidarity with the government, or ruling party.
If you are looking for some line to draw, then it is probably this: Is the person acting as a government agent, and are they specifically referencing content to censor? There is definitely gray area here- is a guy speaking at a campaign event, or in a press interview speaking as a government agent? Are they asking what your policies are for foreign speech, or are they presenting specific examples of speech that they think you should prohibit?
Based on those guidelines, I think we would find various examples where politicians were not speaking as agents of the government, or where their "requests" did not meet the definition of censorship. But in my experience watching this over the past 5 years (and as someone who has always defended Section 230), the year has revealed that far more censorship by proxy is occurring than just "politicians being blowhards".
The government does not have the POWER to request the removal of speech.
If the request is a *genuine* request, and not a command or law or order or regulation, why not?
I usually say "you can't honestly be this dumb" given the totality of what we know about what went into censorship, known publicly with documentation....
But I truly think you are that stupid. And also that pro censorship. And that big a leftist.
Every comment you've had regarding free speech here has been couched as a rationalization on why you or people you trust should have power to determine speech, whether censorship or determining quality of speech. You want power over others to diminish their ability to communicate. You truly are an evil authoritarian no matter how much you rationalize it.
I mean, Overt laid it out quite well.
The issue is not that it’s a request like a private actor could perform, the issue is the request coming from government actors doesn’t engender the actual concept of a request that one feels comfortable with turning down.
Maybe a request from a government official, mildly stated, and followed-up with noting more could actually be perceived to be a request that one would be free to turn down. But when “requests” are constant, and followed-up with things like congressional hearings and subpoenas, hyperbolic rhetoric from politicians demanding compliance from the dais and in the media, government actively investigating groups who have said the wrong things, government going after parents as terrorists simply because they voiced their opinion at school board meetings, people like Chuck Schumer explaining the consequences of daring to cross the numerous clandestine agencies of the government, and so forth, a request from the government quickly becomes a “request” from the government that you better approve, or else.
Thus, the idea is that when the government constantly threatens action against you and the public, any “request” isn’t really genuine and doesn’t make one feel free to decline.
Well then we are back to where we started. All but the most innocuous of requests is equivalent to direct government coercion to compel compliance. I think this is a ridiculously overbroad standard, which is harmful to the free speech rights of the politicians. (Yes, they have rights too.)
So if Senator Blowhard once asks Elon Musk to remove misinformation from his platform, then that's okay, but if he does it multiple times, then that's not okay? How many times would it take? If Senator Blowhard and Senator Dumbfuck both make the request, then that's not okay either? How many senators would it take for the request to go from "okay" to "not okay"? And how would this work in practice?
SENATOR BLOWHARD: Today I rise to once again ask Elon Musk to control the sewer of misinformation on his platform.
SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: I'm sorry, Senator, but you've already reached your Twitter request quota. I'm going to have to arrest you now.
I think instead a much better standard for deciding whether a government request represents a "threat" is:
1. If the request isn't itself a type of crime (i.e., "do what I say or I'll kill your child" is right out because threatening to murder someone itself is a crime); and
2. if the recipient of the request retains full formal legal authority to accept or refuse the request.
So Chuck Schumer can rant and rave all he wants about big bad Elon Musk but unless there is some formal legal process to wrest legal control away from him then all his blatherings are just hot air.
That is not to say that the politicians' speech is GOOD speech, just that it shouldn't be considered ILLEGAL speech or CENSORSHIP. It's irresponsible speech and undignified speech. It is speech that statesmen/stateswomen shouldn't be engaged in. We shouldn't reward politicians who engage in that type of behavior and the way to do that is at the ballot box.
Finally:
government going after parents as terrorists simply because they voiced their opinion at school board meetings
this is a myth, it never happened.
"All but the most innocuous of requests is equivalent to direct government coercion to compel compliance. "
You are creating a strawman. Nobody has said "all but the most innocuous of requests is equivalent."
2 arguments are in play.
The strongest is that we are long, long past the point where anything can be considered "innocuous". You keep wanting to go find a line and quibble about margins. And we continue to argue that even if you WERE to prevail at the margins, it doesn't matter *because* we are far past the margins. So unless you are going to argue that the totality of demands made by the government so far are not "crossing the line", your attempts to nit-pick those margins is not constructive.
Second, my argument, and the more libertarian argument which likely would not hold up in court is that the government does NOT have the power to "request" that people do things it does not have the power to do itself.
First, let's take the abstract, logical points.
1) If the government does not have the power to do X, an agent of the government may not do X.
2) If an agent of the government may not do X, then the government cannot PAY someone else to do the same thing. That would merely be contracting out a power that the government doesn't have.
3) There is no reason why "payment" has to be money. Payment could be in favors, other services, or an agreement not to make their life more difficult. It could even be praise.
4) Therefore if the government does not have the power to do X, it cannot have a proxy do it for them in return for payment, threats, or even just good vibes.
For example, the Government does not have the power to search your home office for evidence of a crime without a warrant. Likewise they do not have the power to pay a PI to do the same thing. And they do not have the power to threaten your friend to do it for them, or to just request they do it in return for a job at the FBI, or because they say they really, really think it would be good for the country.
For crying out loud, the Twitter Files revealed that there are literally offices of the government that PAY AGENTS OF THE STATE to make requests to private actors to Censor. Requests are no loophole they are just "payments" that are deeply abstracted away like so many shell corporations.
You’re trying to boil positions down into simplistic reductionist points, which is not accurate. You seem to be getting angry at the margins and not the whole. Yes, if government requests are truly requests, than there isn’t an issue with 1A violations, per se. But it is easy for government officials to move beyond what anyone would see as an equivalent request from a private individual.
You almost keep imputing this idea that private requests to censor speech and government requests to censor speech are equal, they aren’t. Government requesting the censoring of speech has much more scrutiny due to the very nature of what government is.
As such, a US Senator asking Musk to remove speech in and of itself is not a violation of 1A. But constantly requesting, threatening regulations, demanding action in speeches all quickly negate the “request” portion of the ask.
It’s the same as a police officer versus a private citizen. All things being equal, a person who is asked by a private person to get out of their car has a much different feeling about the situation than if a police officer asks the same thing. This is inherent as one person has the power of government behind them and the other doesn’t. You seem to paint this difference up as almost causing the poor government to be a victim, when the reality is this difference is precisely because government is not the victim. You have to understand government and its officials have a higher burden as to the desire to censor speech and that fact is a very good thing.
And the fact that you think the DOJ going after parents is a myth shows such a tremendous tribal blindness to reality that it’s actually hard to take you seriously at this point.
It tears at the very fabric of free speech as an idea, let alone the massive violation of the 1st amendment it is.
"If the request is a *genuine* request, and not a command or law or order or regulation, why not?"
No. The government cannot "request" that people violate the first amendment on its behalf. And this assumes that there were some mechanism to discern what is a "genuine" request versus a threat versus a promise for favors versus anything else that is more than a request.
There is nothing in the Constitution that grants the Federal Government the power to run around "requesting" that its version of the truth be protected.
"And, kindly: fuck you."
Oh and, for the record, give it a rest. You are constantly in here mocking people you disagree with. You are constantly crucifying people based on the intent you imagine they have, and then ridiculing them for it.
If you can't take it, then perhaps stop dishing it out.
Narrator: He will not stop dishing it out.
It's not about diverse voices, or even bias, it's that journalism is supposed to be about uncovering and presenting the facts.
Bias is fine if you are aware of the bias. Just remove that slight blueish or reddish tinge to get to it. But this all started with FOX News (sorry, but it did) when they were unable to distinguish between the News hour and the Opinion shows. Those quickly bled into each other until today it's impossible to tell if someone on FOX is trying to present the news or just ranting his opinion. MSNBC quickly followed suit. And today all of mainstream media is in on it, mixing the news with opinion willy nilly.
And it's only going to get worse with AI bots inventing the news to match the social media bubbles of its listeners.
It did not start with fox news you naive moron. Even ben Franklin's press was biased towards his views. Editors have always existed.
How do you know so many facts that are so wrong?
"(sorry, but it did)"
No, it didn't.
Dan Rather presenting "False but true" facts never had anything to do with Fox.
60 Minutes was famous for pushing opinions on "consumer safety" in their "investigative reports", leading to numerous embarrassments around the safety of cars, pesticides, gun control and other items. This predated Fox News.
In 1902-3, Ida Tarbell was writing articles that blended fact and fiction to crucify Standard Oil, without noting that her brother was an officer of a competitor company. She had nothing to do with Fox news.
In '68 when the Tet Offensive resulted in a humiliating loss for the NVA, the reporters back home portraying it as a loss for the south had nothing to do with Fox News.
In 1915, portraying the Lusitania as a civilian vessel even though it carried tons of war material was blending fact and opinion that had nothing to do with Fox News.
This shit did not start with Fox News. We have seen people blending fact and opinion to further an agenda since Homer. And people have recognized and tried to monopolize the channels of communication for at least as long. Liberals are butt-hurt that they couldn't do this with Fox News, but the idea that Fox was engaged in anything novel is laugable.
WW2 media was even famous for using the same type of propaganda as we currently use for the Ukraine, claiming troops and weapons sent to Britain were just to protect an invasion of GB. The entire time they were planning D-Day utilizing those troops.
I mean we can go back to the Council of Hippo which determined which books belonged to the bible if we truly wanted to keep going back.
So, is your contention is that coastal media elitists do not look upon working class and rural Americans in 'flyover country' with disdain, and consider them to be unsophisticated rubes, who do not know what's good for them?
Because I can provide a rather lengthy video montage of them claiming that 'those people' are 'voting against their own interests', if you want proof.
Why blame people for not wishing to listen to people who treat them with open disgust, and looking for alternatives?
Just stop it. The election was rigged, in a thousand ways. All the Fox case had to do with was that A SPECIFIC CHARGE they promoted was not believed by them to have been true, making their statements about individuals an act of libel. In fact, it is still entirely possible that their allegations were LITERALLY true and that they were right despite believing it to be a lie - it’s just that the evidence to prove that cannot be found.
In any case, the 2020 election was factually interfered with in fraudulent ways which changed the outcome. Only complete and utter morons believe otherwise. Most of the people saying it was NOT fraudulent are in fact lying, actively participating in the disinformation campaign. I can’t know if you are one of those, or simply one of those too dumb to know it is true.
I disagree. I thought Welch did a masterful job of proving that bias in media and dissenting voices being silenced was bullshit. Matt not being fired for his 2005 article extolling the virtues of the French healthcare system is iron-clad proof.
Tucker is far more honest than anyone at Reason. That much is certainly true. Reason has completely sold out in favor of Koch cash and social acceptance among the leftist beltway elite crowd.
Still no mention from Reason of the bank records detailing millions and millions of dollars paid by foreign governments to 9(!) of the current president's immediate family members.
They didn't even come from a laptop this time, but were released by sitting congressmen.
But we have gotten multiple articles bitching about Tucker Carlson, bitching about Trump, and celebrating the indictment of Santos over a couple hundred dollars in question.
Too local
And It’s a good thing the cocktail party crowd is policing what is said here at Reason
Shrike posted a NYT link in the Roundup today, confidently stating that even though true, the revelations were a nothingburger.
The Reasonistas now have permission to ignore.
https://twitter.com/CrimeInNYC/status/1657002029900783617?t=U8x4AgRkDqPB0aQFio-a-w&s=19
Daniel Penny voluntarily turned himself in and was arrested on a second-degree manslaughter charge at the 5th Precinct in lower Manhattan just after 8 a.m.
Defense attorney Thomas Kenniff said he expects his client to be arraigned Friday afternoon.
‘The manslaughter charge – which carries up to 15 years in prison if convicted – comes as the city has been fraught with tension over the May 1 killing of Neely, a 30-year-old with a long history of m̶e̶n̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶l̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶s̶u̶e̶s̶ brain damage caused by drug abuse.’
[Link]
Someone else noted that the other guys holding him down escaped charges. That seems unusual.
The other guy had more equity.
One was Black, the other Hispanic. Their presence would screw up Braggs narrative.
Fuck this world.
I’m hoping everyone gets fed up with the left soon. So we can finally rip the bandaid off and deal with the puss oozing infection that is the democrat party once and for all.
There are a lot of voices coalescing around this idea, but the clearest and loudest to me is Glenn Greenwald.
What is being crushed is anti-establishment thought.
You have permission to fight over abortion, race, gender, sexual orientation, pop culture....
But not over military spending and foreign wars of convenience. 30 years ago we had already abandoned the idea of congress declaring war. Then after Bush got his "authorization to use military force" we no longer even do that. Obama even decided that notifying congress was beneath him.
This results in hundreds of billions in spending on munitions, without any real oversight.
Greenwald sees this as the driving force behind the extreme reactions to anti-establishment voices.
What is amazing is that a libertarian magazine would stand on the other side of the issue.
The clearest example of government and industry trying to tamper down and attack anti establishment views remains the covid industry. Active government resources, collusion with businesses, etc to establish the government view as the only allowed view.
And what is remarkable is that there is a name for a system of government that intertwines government authority and corporate power.
It is ironic that the people most loudly screaming for those covid measures are the same folk who proclaim themselves to be the bulwark against that form of government.
Agreed. We have discussed corporate fascism for a decade in the comments.
ctrl+f ‘Alex Jones’: 0 results
ctrl+f ‘Julian Assange’: 0 results
I guess they must not have been journalists whose speech was in need of policing.
> setting up shop on a platform where he'll have to please nobody but his fans
OnlyFans in other words. Eeew.
You say that as if having to please Fox made him better. The weakest part of his gig there was having to play outrage anchor between his personal scripted segments.
If he gets to be a little more like his books or his podcast appearances it will only improve his show.
Yes, his documentary work and long form interviews tend to be good. He will only benefit form less creative restrictions.
FWIW I think that here there's a general eliding between media (in)accuracy and news selection. Do these partisan news consumers want accuracy in the stories they do see or listen to, while shunning bad news for their side or good news for the other side, or do they want stories that tell them what they want to hear, accuracy be damned? I suspect that no-one wants to admit that they want the latter, while a fair number of people nonetheless prefer news sources that do just that.
(See also, "does my bum look big in this dress?" - what kind of answer does your GF/wife want?)
I agree that everyone loves having their biases confirmed. I was ecstatic when I discovered Reason and Skeptic magazines in my youth. Finally inhad a voice to things I had been milking over myself. I found fellow travellers and could expand my understanding of things that were already important to me. So I get why people like MSNBC and Fox.
But more than that, people like honesty and authenticity.
Look at Joe Rogan. He has 14 million subscribers to his podcast. His YouTube videos get a half million views, minimum, and often go over a million. Sometimes way more. This dwarfs all of cable news, which pulls in less than 10 million views combined these days.
Rogan is not an ideolog. He isn't even partisan. He is left-ish, libertarian-ish and populist. His schtick is to take an interest in his guests and have a real conversation where he lets them speak at length about things of interest.
And an order of magnitude more people watch that than watch the nightly CNN round table.
People like to listen to their team being cheerlead. But they enjoy authenticity even more.
Weiss. Greenwald and Taibbi seem to be doing well rolling their own, despite what is presumably a rather niche set of views. None of them are team red or team blue partisans any more. All are of the left to far left, but have taken libertarian-ish stances that put them at odds with pretty much all of today's left. Yet they have a following similar in size to CNN, who make their bones being DNC cheerleaders. That is 1/3 of the country, as opposed to maybe (generously) 5% for the libertarian wing theoretically being courted by Greenwald and crew.
But because the speak with the clarity of a pure ideological (not partisan) vision, they carry an authenticity that is attractive beyond that niche. Something that Fox, CNN and MSNBC do not have.
I'm a big fan of Skeptic and Skeptical Inquirer - though even there one must beware of confirmation bias. (The problem I had with reading Kahnemann's Thinking, Fast and Slow was that it confirmed so many of my prejudices about how people think...)
All are of the left to far left, but have taken libertarian-ish stances that put them at odds with pretty much all of today’s left.
And sadly, put them at odds with much of today's *checks Reason Masthead* libertarians.
"Will anybody be able to police what Carlson says, or is this the point? It's just a free for all?" NBC News's Tom Costello asked earlier this week of Tucker Carlson's new Twitter project, neatly summarizing the increasingly odd relationship between the mainstream media and the audience it serves.
Imagine going back to say, 2005 (you know, just picking a random year out of my ass) and seeing major media figures bitching that other major media figures had too much free speech.
Apparently only a handful of us see this as a shocking and important change.
>>Left unsaid was that on-air, Carlson withheld his own disdain for Donald Trump
this particular drumbeat is not as loud as you think it is
I don't get why this is used as some kind of "a-ha!" gotcha against Tucker Carlson. I withhold my disdain for Donald Trump because I think there are bigger issues to consider.
yep ... although I kinda like the guy with the balls to tell the deposition attorney she's not hot enough for him 🙂
I'm not sure I can say I like the guy, but I do get some perverse enjoyment watching him perform his public persona.
It's like pro-wrestling sans kayfabe. They legit tag team him by coming off the top rope of New York court system and he's on stage the next night shouting "It just doesn't matter!" while waiving his hand in front of his face.
Can’t see how that kind of boorish rudeness requires “balls”, or how someone could ever find it commendable unless they, like Trump, have a blind spot for the the value of civility.
What you’re advocating for is faux civility. Where “nice” men and women call people racists and Nazis and white supremacists with smiles on their face or looks of feigned concern. Where people are slandered, spied upon and denied the opportunity even to defend themselves by cowards hiding behind a committee or the state. In a genuinely civilized society people like that wouldn’t be subject to snide or bawdy comments. They’d be subject to a horse whipping. Spare me your corrupt pearl clutching.
I withhold my disdain for Donald Trump…
You disdain Trump but you withhold it — why?
Do you mean here in the commentariat? Why?
Do you mean out in the real world? Are you influential in the real world, and therefore must hide your disdain for Trump to have an effect on the destiny of our nation?
"... the power to shape tastes, politics, medical decisions." Sorry, NYT, but the ONLY person who can shape your opinions or decisions is yourself. No one else has that power, including the government! Abusing a word by trying to twist it to suit your narrative doesn't look good on "powerful" media personalities and it's part of the problem mainstream media have with public opinion. If you read something or hear something and let it change your opinion or influence your decisions, it's YOUR responsibility and no one else's.
Left unsaid was that on-air, Carlson withheld his own disdain for Donald Trump, privately describing him as "destructive" and a "demonic force," while publicly catering to supporters of the former president.
So, he focused on issues where the president happened to agree with him while not making his coverage about his personal like or dislike of Mr. Trump.
I guess I'm old enough to be dating myself. I'm old enough to remember when such an approach was something called "professionalism".
What? That’s crazy talk.
Yeah, these emanations and penumbras are a bit odd here. Carlson didn't like Trump, but he catered to his fans by discussing issues that aligned with Trump's supporters.
Mere alignment with a Trump position is an evil in and of itself.
And the thought of admitting that Trump was right about various issues? Quick, the smalling salts! I'm feeling faint!
"'Speech is the fundamental prerequisite for democracy. That's why it's enshrined in the first of our constitutional amendments,' Carlson announced on the platform that will host his new show."
The First Congress submitted 12 amendments to the states for ratification. The first two were not ratified in the eighteenth century. The third one submitted became the First Amendment. It was happenstance that the right to free speech was enshrined as part of the First Amendment.
That sounds a bit stronger than happenstance.
"...It was happenstance that the right to free speech was enshrined as part of the First Amendment."
Correlation =/= causation. Mr. Pedant.
Razor on the CNN host in the Trump interview:
"He's not locked in here with me, I'm locked in here with him!"
Dayumn!
I expect Tucker Carlson to continue to peddle lies, bigotry, and white grievance to an audience of gullible, disaffected, slack-jawed, superstition, obsolete, bigoted, right-wing clingers.
That audience decreases every day in modern America -- as old conservatives take their old-timey bigotry and superstition to the grave in the natural course, and are replaced by better Americans in our electorate and society -- but narrowcasting to the vestigial racist Republican rubes can still be profitable for a bit longer.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
You’re just trying too hard anymore. It’s starting to be very apparent. I understand, when you perform a shtick over and over again to diminishing returns, there is a strong desire to turn it up to 11 to regain the glory days. But instead of increasing your returns, you rather quickly decimate the already diminishing returns by over-playing your hand.
"Tucker Carlson's Twitter Venture Tests Mainstream Media's Eroding Grip"
Is that a misprint? Consolidating grip might be more accurate. Didn't the owner of Twitter just appoint a globalist vaxxer/masker from NBC to run the place?
I’ll say it again. All Tucker needs to do is run for office; state that every broadcast and interview is a campaign speech; and declare all monies collected to be campaign financing. That would both render the no-compete portion of his Fox contract irrelevant and, cherry on the cake, allow him to continue to accept $20 million per year from Fox for the duration of his contract.
hello
I am not under any delusion that Tucker Carlson is a saint but I do agree with him. Controlling the dialogue is definitely the most powerful arrow in the media's quiver, regardless of leanings.
Life was much nicer before the cancer of the Op-Ed page metastasized into every story in the newspaper, and into every moment -- commercials included -- on cable news.
In Op-Ed world, there is a monster lurking in every story, and our job as readers is to kill it. It is a Super Mario Brothers adventure, but it is only fun if the player becomes angry.
No one is directly informed by news sources anymore -- because becoming so requires independent research and validation. And that reality has given rise to podcasters who critique news media just as Jon Stewart used to, but who also convincingly claim to ferret out the facts and the truth.